WEBVTT - Harry Houdini: The great escape - Part 1 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:07.760 You know, he would actually strip down, sometimes apparently completely naked, 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:10.479 or sometimes to his underwear, his closed to be placed 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:12.959 outside a cell. He'd be locked in a cell in handcuffs, 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:15.640 and the commissioner and various boys will go into another 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:17.520 room and sit down for a cup of tea, and then, 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.599 you know, ten minutes later, fifteen minutes later, he would 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:21.680 appear fully dressed. 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.360 I'm Jen Kelly from The Herald Son and this is 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:31.240 In Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:35.400 forgotten characters. Welcome to the very last in Black and 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:39.559 White episode after five years and almost two hundred and 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:43.519 eighty episodes. I'm immensely proud to have been able to 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.760 bring you a little slice of Australian history every week 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.159 for so long. I'll share some special messages at the 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:54.600 end of this final two part episode. Today's final episode 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:57.640 is fittingly enough with one of our most regular guests, 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:02.920 the brilliant Andrew McConville from State Library, Victoria, whose wealth 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:07.120 of knowledge of Australian history seems to be limitless, and 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:09.840 today he's sharing the story of none other than the 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:16.160 great Harry Houdini, the escape artist and illusionist. Hoodini certainly 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:20.040 wasn't Australian, but he caused a sensation on his Australian 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:25.600 tour with his spectacular stunts, including a death defying dive 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:29.200 in handcuffs into the Arrow River in Melbourne and the 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:34.440 historic first powered flight in Australia. Here's Andrew now with 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:38.280 part one. Come back tomorrow for part two. Welcome back 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:39.920 to the podcast, Andrew. 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:42.880 Thanks very much. Janet's great to be here now. 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:45.760 Obviously, we can without doubt say that Houdini was the 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:49.680 world's most famous entertainer in his era. But one of 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:53.120 the interesting things about Hoodini is that he's still incredibly 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:57.240 famous today. And just out of interest, I've got four 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.400 kids of my own, their age from twelve to seventeen. Obviously, 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:03.440 in this modern age of video games and YouTubers and influencers, 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.200 they have very a very different set of people that 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:08.519 they consider to be famous. But I checked with them 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:12.000 and they all instantly knew who Whodini. 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:12.919 Was and what he did. 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.440 And I just thought that was extraordinary that the name 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:17.960 Whodini is still so well known today. 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:20.520 Well, it is amazing, isn't it. And it has become 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:23.520 I mean, very few people have their name become part 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.000 of the language, really, but he is certainly someone, and 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.560 you can look up any newspaper every period of time 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.480 and there'll be some reference to Whodni, which will normally 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.280 be to do with escapes. And I mean obviously at 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:38.040 the time he was working, there were very famous illusionists, 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:41.120 very famous magicians, but their names haven't lived on to 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:43.040 the same extent. I think part of it might be 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.960 that his was genuinely death defying. I mean, while he 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:50.600 had tricks, he still was putting himself in very dangerous 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:54.000 situations and situations that people could right to. I mean, 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:57.040 everybody's terrified of drowning, so that sort of thing would 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:59.919 have been very resonant, I think. But also he did 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.240 huge public performances and that probably enhanced his fame and 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:06.840 meant that it lived on, and probably because he was 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.400 pretty original, I mean that idea. There were other escopologists, 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:13.280 and there has been subsequently, but he probably was doing 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:16.160 something that he made really famous. So it wasn't that 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:19.640 he was carrying on a long tradition. He really made 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:22.919 it very famous. But it's hard to put an exact 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.200 finger on but really it's probably an element of the 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:28.799 fact that what he was doing was quite unique, and 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:31.840 the big public spectacles he was putting on were quite unique, 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:35.360 and so they have resonated well beyond his lifetime and 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.280 as I say, have become part of the normal language. 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.400 And you see, his name would appear somewhere in the 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:43.680 world every day, I would think, And. 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.880 Even though he is still so famous, there are a 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:50.640 couple of incredibly spectacular and daring feats that he pulled 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.760 off while he was here in Melbourne during his Australian tour, 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:56.760 and I feel like those things have really been forgotten 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:58.920 over time, and that's why we've decided to do this 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:01.640 episode today. So excited that we're going to tell those 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:04.600 stories a little bit later in this episode. But let's 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.640 begin with his early life, because it's interesting that, like 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.760 so many great achievers, he came from great poverty. 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:13.720 He certainly did. He was born in nineteen seventy four 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:17.479 in Hungary and came over to America with his family 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.239 when he was only four, but they lived in pretty 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.799 much dire poverty. At one stage. He was quoted as saying, 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:25.960 we lived in New York, or rather I should say 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:29.120 we starved in New York. So they moved around quite 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.039 a bit. His father was a rabbi and his work 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:34.960 was really to establish a congregation that would then support him, 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:37.600 but he was pretty unsuccessful of that and the congregation 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.520 in effect fired him, so he was not bringing in 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.840 virtually any money, and young well Eric Weiss as he 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:46.680 was originally known Harrahudoni, he ran away from home when 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.320 he was eleven and just worked at odd jobs, and 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:49.960 he had. 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:50.800 Very little education. 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:54.440 He was a very intelligent man and really created an 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.559 enormous library over his lifetime, but he had very little 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:00.880 formal education. And when he was very young, about thirteen 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.760 or fourteen, he was working as a messenger boy. And 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:07.120 then his only real job outside of show business, and 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:10.880 he lasted any time at all, was as a cutter 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:13.320 in a tie factory, so he did that for a 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:15.960 short time, but he basically headed off on the road 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:19.520 when he was about seventeen to be a performer. And 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.200 even in those early days as a performer, it was 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:24.720 a very very hand of mouth existence, and he had 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:27.919 to take on any sort of work that he could. 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.240 I mean, they're often, you know, what might be called 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:34.480 dime shows or little itinerant circuses, and at that stage 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:37.200 he wasn't doing the capology he was trying his hand 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:38.480 as very magic tricks. 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:41.159 And one of the dime circuses. 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.520 He was working at they advertised a wild man that 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:46.960 they didn't actually have. Supposedly someone rescued from the deepest jungle. 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:50.120 So Harry put on oin cloth and put his hair 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:53.800 out in all directions and grunted and raved and raw 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:56.479 meat for the entertainment of the public. So he was 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:58.800 sort of willing to do anything. And he and his 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:00.840 wife he married very young. They married when he was 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.640 only about twenty and his wife was eighteen, and they 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:07.240 then performed together, but often they'd struggle to find anywhere 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:10.000 to stay. They often went without food. It was a 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:12.400 very tough existence, to the point where early in his 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:15.440 career he was almost ready to give up and try 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:16.640 something else. 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.520 And when and where did he get his first taste 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:22.159 of fame, Well. 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:23.920 It's really he started to experiment. 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:25.400 I think one of the things about him was he 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.440 had a very as I say, he had a very 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:31.240 good mind, and he was very interested in working out 0:06:31.279 --> 0:06:34.080 how things were done and how things worked. And he 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.040 would do that when he talks about and sometimes what 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.600 he says about his early life can be questioned because 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:42.599 he was in show business, and he did like a 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:43.279 good story. 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:44.760 But he did talk about. 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.120 Saying when he was very young seeing a magician in Milwaukee, 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:49.680 and what he was concentrating on was how the tricks 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.520 were done, working out what was behind the trick, and 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:56.000 he became quite a depth at working locks, and so 0:06:56.200 --> 0:07:00.760 he incorporated handcuffs into his stage show in ninety five, 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:03.120 and he still wasn't that successful. He was doing other 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:06.359 tricks and as a standard magician doing card tricks, he 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.000 called himself the King of Cards, and at one stage 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:13.080 he and his wife Beatrice were acting as spiritualists. I 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.640 think he was professor who Doney at that stage and 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:20.320 she was the psychometric madam whatever that means. So they 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:22.440 would do really anything. But he did start to incorporate 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:26.120 handcuff tricks. And then at about eight ninety nine, a chap 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:28.680 called Martin Beck, who worked for the Orphium Circuit, which 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:32.880 was a large circuit of vaudeville theaters. Sorry Schawan was 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:35.640 taken with the handcuff tricks and told him to drop 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:38.200 the other things because he was a competent magician, but 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:41.920 not outstanding, not above the rest, but his handcuff tricks 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:45.600 and those ideas of escape might be his future, and 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:48.440 he became successful in that orphium circuit and that really 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:52.440 set off a pretty metioric rise in America, but particularly 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:53.880 in Europe after that. 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:57.239 So, just going back to talking about picking the locks, 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:00.640 so obviously he was an illusionist, it sounds like you're 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.280 saying he really was getting himself out of those locks. 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:06.560 You never know with magicians, and illusionis what's real and 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.000 what's not real. But you're saying that he really was 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:11.320 learning to get himself out of those locks in a 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:12.120 matter of seconds. 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:15.320 He certainly had enormous skill at that. I mean, I think, 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:18.080 and I guess magicians and he, more than anyone, wouldn't 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:19.880 give away his tricks. And certainly, you know, he did 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.320 things that were seemingly impossible, which obviously you know there 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.240 were tricks involved. But he was I mean, he was 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:28.280 a phenomenal athlete. He was a great runner, He was 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:31.040 a terrific swimmer. He could hold his breath longer than 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:34.400 almost anybody for over three minutes, So he had enormous 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.560 physical skills. He did understand locks too, and worked out 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.400 how locks could be undone. And I think part of 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:42.600 it is that there's a mystake about handcuffs that they're 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.160 impossible to get out of. But when you think about it, 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.040 people don't spend a lot of time in handcuffs, and 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:48.800 usually if they're in handcuffs, they've got a couple of 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:51.199 police standing next to them, so I don't get much 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:53.560 chance to pick the locks. So he was someone who 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.680 studied them, and so he did have enormous capacity to 0:08:57.400 --> 0:08:58.160 undo locks. 0:08:58.280 --> 0:08:59.920 But he also used a few tricks. Some of his 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:01.079 sometimes had. 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:03.080 Supposedly a little bits of why that might be in 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:04.719 his mouth or in his hair that he could use 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.360 to pick a lock. But he certainly was very adept 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:09.800 at picking locks. So there were tricks, but probably more 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.960 than other magicians, a lot of it was through enormous 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:17.280 natural skill, that being able to escape from various perilous situations. 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.360 Now it sounds like he began using that name Ujinie 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.880 fairly early on. Where did he get that name from? 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:28.800 Well, there was a great French magician who was named 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:32.680 Jean Eugene Robert hoo Dan, So Robert who Dan was 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:35.959 his surname, and he died a few years before who 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:38.720 Deney was born. But he was considered, you know, a 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:40.960 father of modern magic, and he wrote a biography that 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:43.240 Who Deney read as a young boy and was very 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:46.839 taken with, and so that's where he took his name from. 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:49.120 So he took the second half of Robert hoo Dan's 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:50.960 name and just added an eye to it, and then 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:54.280 later on called himself Harry and became Harry Who Deny. 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:55.960 Now, I'd love you to tell us more about how 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:59.679 he became just so world famous in his various publicity 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.920 stuff and exactly what the show was like and all 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:04.320 the different tricks that he would do. 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.960 He was a master of publicity and he had some 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:11.600 very clever ways of getting publicity. He probably as a 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:15.360 stage magician, he probably didn't have the great pattern and 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:18.400 the great stage presence that perhaps a card someone doing 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:19.080 car tricks. 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:20.440 Or whatever would have and would rely on. 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.240 He was probably the type of magic he did, or 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.280 the type of escapes he did, really suited his demeanor. 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:31.000 But he have big public events that would attract crowds 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:33.600 and obviously enhance his fame. And one of the first 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:37.240 things he did was he would challenge various police stations 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:38.959 to lock him up in a cell and lock him 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:42.400 in handcuffs, and they would take that on because they thought, oh, 0:10:42.720 --> 0:10:43.840 you know, this guy was a bit of a smart 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.360 elecant will show him, and you know, he would actually 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:50.000 strip down, sometimes apparently completely naked, or sometimes to his underwear. 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:52.560 His clothes would be placed outside a cell. He'd be 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.280 locked in a cell in handcuffs, and the commissioner and 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:57.520 various boys would go into another room and sit down 0:10:57.520 --> 0:10:59.360 for a cup of tea, and then, you know, ten 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:00.880 minutes later, fifteen minutes. 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:02.640 Later, he would appear fully dressed. 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.840 And so part of that was that he may have had, 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:07.880 you know, things like bits of why things that you 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.120 can pick locks with. But I think he was also 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.880 extremely good at picking locks, and so that sort of 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:16.520 gained him fame. And then beyond that as he became 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.480 more famous, I mean when he went to after he 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:23.640 did the circuit at the Orphium Vaudeville theaters and he 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.360 gained some fame in America, he actually went off to 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.720 London without any sort of bookings, and that was in 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:33.199 I think god ninety nine, and he was holding a 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:35.320 press conference and there was another chap who felt that 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.080 he could escape from handcuffs, named the Great Circle, and 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:40.920 he challenged to Jerney, which he Jerney loved because he 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:42.439 was always felt that he was the best, and he 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:44.960 probably was. And of course the Great Circuit couldn't get 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:46.920 out of the handcuffs, and who Doney had handcuffed him 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:49.959 in Who Doney got out of Circle's handcuffs in about 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.800 five minutes, So that was great publicity. So he would 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:54.360 do a lot of things like that. One of the 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:56.480 most famous ones was when he was touring, and he 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:58.920 was very popular in Europe. And one of the theories 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:01.280 was that, particularly in count who is like Germany and Russia, 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:05.640 where the regimes kept very strict control of their populations 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:08.480 and people would often disappear in the jar without much trial, 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:11.280 that people were delighted to see someone who could escape 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.560 from handcuffs and could, to an extent make a bit 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.800 of a fool of the authorities. And in Russia they 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.640 had a train that used to take prisoners to Siberia, 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:22.680 and supposedly, once it was locked, the only key to 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:23.800 open that was in Siberia. 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:26.319 So of course he had himself locked. 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.040 In this train, in this prison train, and the publicity 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:30.920 was that if he didn't get out, he'd end up 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.400 in Siberia before he could get out, and of course 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:35.720 he did get out, and this sort of embarrassed the authorities, 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.640 but of course made him much more popular with the people. 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:40.560 And there was a whole range of things like that, 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:42.800 and they got a little bit more extreme. I mean, 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:47.560 later on he incorporated straight jackets into his routine, and 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:49.200 he was able to get out of straight trackets in 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:50.120 full view of people. 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:51.440 Often with his magic, as. 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:53.200 We'll talk about in a minute, a screen will be 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.679 put across and he would then appear after he'd escaped. 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.319 But with the straight jackets, he would be hanging forty 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:01.720 meters up in the air from the side of a 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:04.920 building in a straight jacket upside down and he would 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.439 wriggle out and then be lowered down and there might 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:10.280 be twenty thirty thousand people watching that. And the same 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:13.040 with was when he started to do his dives into 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:14.920 rivers around the world handcuffed. 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.120 And again, if you're handcuffed. 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:18.760 And you drive into a river, you haven't got many 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:20.640 minutes to get out, otherwise you'll drowned. But he would 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:23.000 always get out very quickly. So I mean, there are 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:27.199 enormous public events that many people attended but also got 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.440 enormous publicity for him. So that's one of the reasons. 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.000 I think why his name is so enduring because he 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:34.400 was able to build such an enormous amount of fame 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:36.920 through a lot of these public events that enhanced his 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.280 stage shows and enhanced his fame and had him press 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.679 all over the world. So he was pretty good at publicity. 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.200 But also, you know, what he did was regardless of 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:49.320 what tricks he used, it was still enormously skillful. And 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.920 there was that element of him, you know, literally but 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.200 he may die in this, and that wasn't that was 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:56.800 a risk. I mean, you know, if you're locked in 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.839 somewhere in an enclosed space in water, then there is 0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:02.360 a risky you will drown. So whereas I think with 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.680 magicians on stage, even if they was sawing a woman 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:07.199 in half, I don't think anybody quite believed they'd saw 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:10.000 someone in half. But with who doney he was diving, 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:12.160 it was a nightmare for people, you know, to dive 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:15.000 in handcuffed into water. Everybody would feel that a great nightmare. 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:17.599 And often with those water tricks, people would try to 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:20.080 hold their breath and they could never hold it. 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:21.040 As long as he denie. 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:24.680 So I think he bought that that absolute death defining 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:29.360 literally death defying element that wasn't part of other other magicians' work. 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.520 And when he was doing these publicity stunts in rivers, 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:36.680 these were just open for hundreds or thousands of people 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:38.720 to watch for free, I assume. 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.080 Absolutely, yeah, And often they'd be in the city where 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:44.560 he was performing, so it was like an opportunity for 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.680 people for publicity for him, but also they would gain 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:50.600 publicity right around the country. So he would do those 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.160 and there'd be twenty thousand and thirty thousand people there, 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:55.480 but all of those were potential people to come and 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.040 see his shows, so his shows would sell out, and 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.480 for him, they probably there were big events for that town, 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.240 but he was just they didn't take him that long 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:06.120 because he was so quick at getting out, but they'd 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:08.800 give him enormous publicity, and he was very good at 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:11.520 a whole range of things. He'd often, you know, at 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.200 wherever he went with his shows, he would ask people 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:19.360 to concoct challenges that he would then try and escape from, 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.880 which again would enhance the publicity. So he was very 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:26.160 good at creating publicity and that made him a world figure. 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.560 I think did he make a lot of money from 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:29.120 his shows? 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:31.680 Yeah, certainly, once you know, by the turn of the century. 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:34.040 Once he became farmers, he made huge amounts of money. 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:36.920 He was sometimes getting paid, you know, a thousand dollars 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:40.800 a week or more, which was phenomenal money in the 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.120 early part of the twentieth century. It was probably you know, 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.960 one hundred times what somebody. 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:47.280 Would else would earn a week or more. 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.760 He wasn't great with money, though, I think after he died, 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.840 I think his wife found that, you know, he really 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:55.800 hadn't saved too much of his money, and he did 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.280 make a few bad investments. Probably might mention his film 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.200 crelated but he made a few bad investments, starting a 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.240 film company, a verse things like that. So he certainly 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:07.480 made a lot of money, but he also spent a 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:09.160 lot of money. And it was an expensive show to 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:11.920 put in and travel. But he was a very, very 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:13.560 highly paid entertainer of his day. 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:15.960 But he basically liked to put his money back into 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:18.400 his show. It wasn't like he was living the high 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.800 life or living lavishly, no. 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:21.440 To an extent. 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:23.680 I mean, he did have a nice house, but he 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:25.920 didn't live there that often. He was a great book 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:29.680 collector and a great collector of things that took his fancy. 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.040 So one of the things I think his wife did 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:34.520 after he died was to sell for a lot of 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:35.160 his items. 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:36.960 I mean he did all the tricks too. 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:39.080 Would have cost quite a bit of money, because I 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:41.160 mean there was an enormous amount of imitation going on, 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:43.880 and so he was coming up with new tricks and 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:46.760 they did require, you know, quite sophisticated apparatus. And he 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:51.520 would travel around with a number of very loyal helpers 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:54.200 who would probably know that whatever tricks he had, but 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:56.520 never divulge them. And even you know, we'll get on 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:58.200 to Australia in a minute, but you know, bring an 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.000 aeroplane and a mechanic act for Australia would be quite 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.439 expensive as well. So I think he probably spent his 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.480 money fairly freely. He probably wasn't great with looking after 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:10.359 his money, but his life was, you know, to a 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.400 great extent, on the road, really and. 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.040 I can imagine that he must have been more motivated 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:16.919 by adrenaline than money. 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:17.920 I think so. 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:19.880 And I think, you know, there was always that thing 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:22.440 of this you know, impoverished boy. 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:23.080 My. 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:24.840 I mean it was like the American dream, wasn't it, 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:28.840 This impoverished migrant making a huge name for himself. So 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:30.960 I think he did, you know, and you love the 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:35.040 adulation as you would, but I think it was, you know, adrenaline. 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:38.760 It was sort of the enormous popularity he got from 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:40.600 the from the public and what he got back from 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.800 the public, which would be a creative adrenaline, adrenaline rush. 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:46.520 But I think it was probably also someone coming from 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:49.680 such poverty, who had so little opportunities, so loot of education, 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.520 to have this idea of well, I am really worth something. 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:56.479 All these people say I'm worth something, and that would be, 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:58.960 you know, an enormous amount of motivation. But yeah, I'm 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:00.520 sure there was a fair bit of a in it, 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:04.000 because I mean, I'm not a swimmer, so I would 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.720 be horrified to be thrown into a river handcuffed. 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.120 Tell us more about the water trick. So was he 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:13.560 always handcuffed but otherwise free? Was he ever lowered into 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:15.240 the water in a box for equaently? 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:15.920 Yes? 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:17.679 Yeah, so they got, as with most things, they got 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:19.560 a bit more extreme. I mean he did start with 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.080 diving into various rivers. He drove off the dove, off 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.720 the Paris Morgue, into the Seine. He dive off rivers here, 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:30.160 there and everywhere, and obviously in Melbourne and in Sydney 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:34.040 he did the same thing. But he did later, yes, 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.080 have himself blowered into the water in a sealed box, 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.199 which was a very dangerous trick. Whatever tricks he had 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:44.200