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Speaker 1: For a while hour I have been speaking on this

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Speaker 1: podcast and others about young men in our community. I

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Speaker 1: spoke with Maggie Dent about it on her show and

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Speaker 1: this one I spoke with Josh Zepps on his show

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Speaker 1: because there's something I'm concerned about. What is going on

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Speaker 1: with our young men. Was very difficult to be a

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Speaker 1: young man when I was a young man. It seems

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Speaker 1: to be way more difficult to be a young man now.

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Speaker 1: Are they okay? And what if anything can the rest

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Speaker 1: of us do to help steer them in a direction

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Speaker 1: where they grow to become wonderful, marvelous, benevolent, contributing members

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Speaker 1: of our community. These questions have always been in the

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Speaker 1: background of our collective consciousness. They rise to the surface

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Speaker 1: now and again in response to things we see and

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Speaker 1: hear in the news of the media. But these questions

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Speaker 1: have certainly written again after the Netflix series Adolescence. So

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Speaker 1: what does one of Australia's leading voices on childhood mental

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Speaker 1: health have to say about it? And what does he

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Speaker 1: say that we can do about it? Stay with us,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna find out on the other side of this break.

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Speaker 1: Good day, Welcome to the show. This is better than

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Speaker 1: yesterday making it better. Every episode since twenty thirteen, something

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Speaker 1: you hear on this show and every show is guaranteed

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Speaker 1: to make your day to day better than yesterday. That

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Speaker 1: is what I'm here to do. My name' Josha Ginsburg.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you're a part of the show. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for being here. We oh my goodness. Thank you as

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Speaker 1: well to everyone that showed up to story Club on

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Speaker 1: Sunday night. What a night we had. It was just magnificent.

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Speaker 1: There is a brand new show on sale right now

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Speaker 1: May eleventh, as part of the Sydney Comedy Festive. We

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Speaker 1: made the cut, folks. We're big kids now, we're kind

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Speaker 1: of a big deal. We're on the lineup May eleventh

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Speaker 1: over in more Park there. I can't announce the cast

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Speaker 1: just yet, but if you get on the sub stack,

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Speaker 1: which you find in the show notes, you will find

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Speaker 1: an offer code and a link that you can get

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Speaker 1: a discount with. So you are about to hear an

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Speaker 1: incredible conversation. My guest today is doctor Billy. Billy is

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Speaker 1: a developmental pediatrician. He's got over twenty years of experience

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Speaker 1: working with kids in a number of settings, and this

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Speaker 1: is work that continues today. He is a senior pediatric

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Speaker 1: specialist at a very high level.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Garvey holds a PhD in piloting.

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Speaker 1: A model that supports child emotional and behavioral development. He's

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Speaker 1: also the founder of Growing Minds, which is a social

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Speaker 1: enterprise aiming to help all children reach their potential and

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Speaker 1: live rich, meaningful lives. He's written a great book, It's

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Speaker 1: fantastic actually, Ten Things I Wish You Knew about your

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Speaker 1: Child's Mental Health, and is the host of the rather

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Speaker 1: excellent pop culture Parenting podcast, and he's a dad himself.

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Speaker 2: We go into all of this and more.

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Speaker 1: He is simply one of the best communicators on all

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Speaker 1: things parenting and mental health in relation to the Australian

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Speaker 1: culture that we all live in, and you're about to

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Speaker 1: hear our conversation around those things. We're going to delve

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Speaker 1: into things about how our cultural influences shape us, practical

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Speaker 1: tools that you can use to meaningfully connect with your kids.

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Speaker 1: And we discussed the questions that I spoke about at

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Speaker 1: the top bet what's going on with young men? And

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Speaker 1: we do a deep dive and unpack not only the

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Speaker 1: television show Adolescents, but also some positive, actual action steps

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Speaker 1: you can take if you've watched that show, when you

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Speaker 1: recognize anything in yourself or your kids, it's a fantastic conversation.

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Speaker 2: I can't wait for you.

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Speaker 3: To enjoy it. Belly, Hello, man, I'm good. I'm good.

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Speaker 3: How are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm good? And you're joining us today from the set

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Speaker 2: of Scarface.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, the set of Pop Culture Parenting.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, it was inspired partially by Miami Vice and

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Speaker 4: GTA five.

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Speaker 2: Your office is inspired by GTA five.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, so the podcast Pop Culture Parenting was off the

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Speaker 4: back as boring, but off the back of a Churchill

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Speaker 4: fellowship to try and see how we could use media

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Speaker 4: to share the evidence more broadly what we're doing clinic

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Speaker 4: around childhold development, mental health. And one of the reasons

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Speaker 4: that I did it is pop culture has so many

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Speaker 4: hooks in it and influenced how we believed about things

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Speaker 4: growing up, and I'm trying to get as many dads

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Speaker 4: over to it as possible. So Miami Vice, even the illustrator,

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Speaker 4: used those references for the teammad GTA five, and then

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Speaker 4: we kind of use a lot of movies.

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Speaker 3: From the eighties and nineties and more.

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Speaker 4: Recently to try and think about Yeah, some of the

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Speaker 4: misconceptions we have about kids and masculinity and mental health

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Speaker 4: and anxiety and resilience and all that stuff.

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Speaker 3: Because there's just so much misinformation out there.

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Speaker 1: I had to unlearn a lot of things that I

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Speaker 1: had learned from eighties teen movies around particularly around authority

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Speaker 1: and dating.

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Speaker 3: It was weird, so totally.

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Speaker 4: That influence is still happening on kids that are coming

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Speaker 4: up today, and I think there's so many of us

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Speaker 4: that are working really hard to break those beliefs and attitudes.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, it's really challenging, especially if you're not aware

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Speaker 4: of the bias it has on you. And that kind of,

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Speaker 4: you know, tough love kind of attitude that a lot

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Speaker 4: of men have, especially towards boys, is just really harmful.

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Speaker 1: And you could only be two things as a high

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Speaker 1: school teenager in any of those films. You were either

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Speaker 1: the downtrodden one or you were the son of the

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Speaker 1: owner of the country club.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you always you know, all the girls loved you,

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Speaker 3: and you were just you never showed any emotions, you

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Speaker 3: never showed any fear.

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Speaker 1: And you're always mean, like you only communicate with you

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Speaker 1: had no empathy. You were cold, and to be cold

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Speaker 1: and mean got you the hot Check and the Corvette.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the Corvette. We actually were used pretty.

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Speaker 4: Woman for self esteem because yeah, that is this. You know,

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Speaker 4: everyone looks up to Richard Gear but actually he's got

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Speaker 4: really shallow relationships and he's really insecure. So even that

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Speaker 4: memory of King of wishful thinking, you know, that's how

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Speaker 4: he dealt with his feelings. He just got out and

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Speaker 4: drove the car really fast. Yeah, you know, because God forbid,

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Speaker 4: you have to actually sit and be with your thoughts.

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Speaker 1: Well, Billy, sometimes that can work. I had a difficult

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Speaker 1: morning this morning, as like, despite what the signs say,

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Speaker 1: I'm in a neighborhood where people just go, oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: but that no stopping sign of the kissing God doesn't

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Speaker 1: apply to me. I'm just going to double park this

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Speaker 1: Mercedes or this Q seven or whatever while little children

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Speaker 1: run between cars because I'm me And I got real

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Speaker 1: pissed off about it. But then I got on my

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Speaker 1: motorbike and rode here listening to Fu Manchu's King of

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Speaker 1: the Road the whole way, and it was good, Yeah, beautiful.

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Speaker 4: But I wonder if you did something I shuld where

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Speaker 4: you were aware of your frustration, and I what the

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Speaker 4: reason they mind.

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Speaker 1: It very much like be with this, breathe a bit,

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Speaker 1: and then get on get out of here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah beautiful. And how did you learn that?

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Speaker 2: Through trial and error through reverse engineering?

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Speaker 1: I was about nineteen, I think eighteen nineteen years old,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, how do I keep having these

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Speaker 1: days where everything just stacks on top of itself and

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Speaker 1: everyone's mad at me?

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Speaker 3: What is it?

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Speaker 2: What is it? And I would just go back and

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Speaker 2: back and back and back in the day.

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Speaker 1: To go, ah, when I get that feeling, that's when

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Speaker 1: it starts. And I started to learn to notice that

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Speaker 1: and recognize and go ah. I was seeing, thankfully, a

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Speaker 1: state funded psychologist at the time, which helped me a lot.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I got just being aware of that. And

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Speaker 1: but that changes all the time as the stresses in

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Speaker 1: our life change. I say to people all the time, like,

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Speaker 1: you don't just go to a psychologist for you, you know,

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Speaker 1: meet it your healthcare plan, do ten weeks of it,

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Speaker 1: and then you're clear.

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Speaker 2: It's not like high school. You don't graduate.

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Speaker 1: You're just getting a set of tools to deal with

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Speaker 1: what's happening in your life at that point. But then

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Speaker 1: comes summertime, when I don't know, you've got a new girlfriend, boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: your kids now doing something they didn't do before, your

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Speaker 1: neighbor's building out, something like, now you've got more stresses,

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Speaker 1: you might be outgunned again, and it's important to keep

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Speaker 1: understanding that might need a little bit more here.

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Speaker 3: So I'm still learning, well, yeah, I mean we all are.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: I've done so much study in this space and worked

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Speaker 4: in it for so long, but I still am learning

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Speaker 4: every day from usually the kids I'm meeting clinic, but

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Speaker 4: also the other professionals, the families and my own kids

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Speaker 4: you know about this, and my own therapist. I see

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Speaker 4: a therapist pretty regularly, and it's amazing. I have to

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Speaker 4: do that to carry out much.

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Speaker 3: Weight o carrying.

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Speaker 2: I do love that that.

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Speaker 1: You know, most psychologists don't see it on Fridays because

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Speaker 1: they're all seeing each other.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so yeah, it's really interesting. But I mean it's

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Speaker 4: beautiful and it's funny. I was show like I was

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Speaker 4: thinking about this coming into it, and I you know,

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Speaker 4: you had such a positive influence on me as a

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Speaker 4: teenager because you Yeah, definitely I reckon. One of the

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Speaker 4: reasons that I felt, you know, brave enough to wear

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Speaker 4: my hair long.

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Speaker 3: Was seeing you do it.

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Speaker 4: And you do it confidently, and you know, you weren't

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Speaker 4: really focused on other people's opinions. You just liked it

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Speaker 4: like that, and so, you know, I think it's quite

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Speaker 4: funny to now, you know, over twenty years later, to

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Speaker 4: be talking to you about this stuff, when you had

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Speaker 4: that positive influence on me in one of the most

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Speaker 4: vulnerable periods of my life, which is my teenagers.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Billy, I'm grateful to hear that, mate, Billy's talking about.

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Speaker 1: I was on music television for about five US seven

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Speaker 1: years here in Australia, and for the first couple of

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Speaker 1: years I had long hair, like down to my belt line,

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Speaker 1: and there was a lot of pressure for me to cut.

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Speaker 2: It like a lot and I'm like, no, I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's beautiful though, because you would have been

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Speaker 3: influencing like thousands of people that said, actually there's someone

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Speaker 3: that's a bit different and they're comfortable with it and

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Speaker 3: they're confident, and maybe I can be a bit different too. Well.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad that helped.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I was listening to the very same

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Speaker 1: record that I listened to this morning at that point

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Speaker 1: in my life. Because I'm not the old guy that

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Speaker 1: only listens to other music that was playing when life

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Speaker 1: was great, like, that's not what I am. But today

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Speaker 1: I did actually need to pull that one out of

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Speaker 1: the toolkit and whack it on.

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Speaker 3: It was beautiful that you even have a toolkit and

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Speaker 3: you talk about it like that and think about it

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Speaker 3: like that, because and you've been podcasting a lot longer

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Speaker 3: than I have, but it's really amazing for you to

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Speaker 3: share that with people and then they can think about

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Speaker 3: maybe it's okay to do myself.

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Speaker 1: What I was speaking about before about being so influenced

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Speaker 1: by I mean, my mum raised us by herself when

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Speaker 1: I was about eleven, so four boys, one older, two younger,

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Speaker 1: and she worked six sometimes seven days a week. And

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Speaker 1: so listen man the VHS movie library, the dollar weekly

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Speaker 1: section was you know, kept us quiet. I get it,

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Speaker 1: And that was the screen time. And how influenced well,

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Speaker 1: until he spoke now like how influenced I was by

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Speaker 1: that those norms and tropes that I was being exposed

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Speaker 1: to about masculinity because mostly all American films and mostly

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Speaker 1: all that dynamic we discussed earlier. Not only that when

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Speaker 1: my dad moved out, he did leave a stash of

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Speaker 1: Playboy magazines that were in a box that we discovered

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Speaker 1: one day, and now I'm reading the stories in Penthouse

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Speaker 1: and Playboy magazine long time ago.

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Speaker 2: But people would write in.

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Speaker 1: Their stories about how they had sex with someone or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And this is what I absorbed as, Oh, this is

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Speaker 1: I guess, this is it.

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Speaker 2: This is what we have.

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Speaker 1: And because of the intensity of those both of those things,

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Speaker 1: they really imprinted upon me when we have like no

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Speaker 1: other voice when it comes to talking to young men

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Speaker 1: about masculinity, and in my case, it was vhs and magazines.

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Speaker 2: Now it's a tablet or a phone.

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Speaker 1: What what can happen if if we as a parent

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Speaker 1: momm did not have time to jump in there. Right,

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Speaker 1: she tried her best and she did well, but she

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Speaker 1: didn't have time to kind of have her She wasn't

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Speaker 1: she didn't know what we were doing.

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Speaker 3: You know. She was a work totally.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, I actually wear kindred spirits because, yeah, I

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Speaker 4: was the same. I was brought up by a single mom.

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Speaker 4: She was raising three boys and you know, same. She

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Speaker 4: worked full time for Frankston City Council and then waitress

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Speaker 4: on the weekends and evenings, and then worked a lot

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Speaker 4: of weekends as well. As a receptionist, and you know,

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Speaker 4: just to try and stop the mortgage drowning her.

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Speaker 3: And it was really hard.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I have the same memories of you I,

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Speaker 4: you know, watching all the action hero movies and being like,

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Speaker 4: that's what a man is, his muscles, and if he

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Speaker 4: has a problem, he uses physical violence to get what

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Speaker 4: he needs and get respect. Women are objects, their trophies.

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Speaker 3: You know, the more.

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Speaker 4: Women partners you have, you just grab them and kiss them,

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Speaker 4: you know, like you show them how much of a

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Speaker 4: man you are. And pornography is having a hugely detrimental

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Speaker 4: impact on what, you know, intimacy is seen as by

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Speaker 4: you know, people that are coming up now, especially young

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Speaker 4: boys through really early ages of teenage years when you know,

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Speaker 4: you and I might have been exposed to it. You know,

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Speaker 4: I had an older brother who had all those magazines

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Speaker 4: and it was really hard because I remember having to

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Speaker 4: you know, I probably still have some bias in that

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Speaker 4: I work really hard.

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Speaker 3: I was raised by you know, strong feminist mother.

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Speaker 4: I witnessed a lot of intimate partner violence against her,

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Speaker 4: and so you know, one of the biggest risk factors

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Speaker 4: of adult mental illness is developmental trauma, and one in

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Speaker 4: three of it. One in five of us, sorry, have

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Speaker 4: experienced three different types of developmental trauma, whether it's abuse, neglect,

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Speaker 4: or household dysfunction, parental mental illness, intimate partner violence. You know,

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Speaker 4: this is stuff that is really common through lots of households.

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Speaker 4: And then if you look and you have this awful

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Speaker 4: kind of acceleration of it because the movies are showing

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Speaker 4: you that men don't.

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Speaker 3: Show their feelings.

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Speaker 4: You know, they are a real man if they just

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Speaker 4: bury it or they release it through anger and violence,

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Speaker 4: that's to be celebrated. And that's not just movies. That's

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Speaker 4: in our sporting culture. That's in a lot of leadership positions.

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Speaker 4: You know, hostility and aggression and I'm the boss and

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Speaker 4: I'll take what I want and you will respect me

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Speaker 4: because you'll fear me. But that's not true, that's false respect,

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Speaker 4: and that's not someone.

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Speaker 3: That we actually really value. We're just afraid of them.

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Speaker 4: And I think that, you know, our ability to reflect

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Speaker 4: back on how that real influence like that is a

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Speaker 4: really powerful thing and to think how can we do better?

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Speaker 4: Knowing that kids today are getting lots of influencers, that

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Speaker 4: people are capturing them and going, hey, come and spend

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Speaker 4: money with me, Come and like spend time with me online.

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Speaker 4: I will make you feel good about yourself and I'll

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Speaker 4: show you that you're valued and that this future path

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Speaker 4: of power is ready for you. And it's it's a

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Speaker 4: false prophet that is hurting kids more than many other

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Speaker 4: things in our community.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes remember in the fight scenes, Mum, she worked

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Speaker 1: as a CVGP for the Australian Army and she would

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Speaker 1: walk past the house. You know, she's laundry in one hand,

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Speaker 1: groceres and the other. You know, we're just sitting in

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Speaker 1: front of the TV. And she'd see people punching. You go,

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Speaker 1: that's bullshit. That got to be dead after two punches

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Speaker 1: with it. Oh And so we kind of at least

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Speaker 1: had an idea that the violence that we saw wasn't real.

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Speaker 1: And you know, later on as I became a roadie,

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Speaker 1: I was like seventeen, and I'm working in pubs and stuff,

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Speaker 1: and I saw what pub violence can be. The fights

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Speaker 1: don't look like John Wick now over in eight seconds,

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Speaker 1: and someone's probably never going to smile the same way again,

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Speaker 1: you know. And but the people, if you've never been

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Speaker 1: exposed to that, you might go into a situation at

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Speaker 1: a pub or something with bravado when you're eighteen nineteen,

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Speaker 1: thinking I've seen how this works. I punched him twice

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Speaker 1: and then do some sort of rad ninja kick and

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Speaker 1: then everyone kisses me. No, you get king hit and

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Speaker 1: you're dead.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny.

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Speaker 4: I've never in my life started a fight, but my

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Speaker 4: fragility and my masculinity is that I can't walk away

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Speaker 4: from one.

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Speaker 3: And I started pediatrics.

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Speaker 4: My first day ever on a pediatric ward a very

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Speaker 4: long time ago, I had two black eyes, you know,

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Speaker 4: because the night before I'd been jumped by a bunch

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Speaker 4: of guys and I started boxing because of that, because

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Speaker 4: I was like, that's the answer, is be able to

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Speaker 4: defend myself. But I you know, it's not true. It's

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Speaker 4: like it's not with violence against violence, just as you

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Speaker 4: said it, it can be hugely physically traumatic but also

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Speaker 4: really emotionally and psychologically traumatic.

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Speaker 3: And I still carry that around with me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like hyper sensitive to know threats and issues like that.

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Speaker 4: And now I'm raising a boy and a girl and

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Speaker 4: it's huge privilege, but it's more important for the safety

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Speaker 4: of the community.

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Speaker 3: How I raise my son Charlie.

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Speaker 4: And as you said, where are the depictions of healthy

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Speaker 4: ways to deal with stress, healthy ways to show emotions

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Speaker 4: that we're struggling with. You know, how do we see

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Speaker 4: men that don't use violence but actually use understanding and

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Speaker 4: sympathy and empathy and compassion to actually make our communities

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Speaker 4: healthier and stronger and safer because we can do better

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Speaker 4: than what we're currently doing. Like it's ridiculous and we

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Speaker 4: just we love it so much, that's the problem.

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Speaker 3: It's so graphic.

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Speaker 4: And we even did Fight Club and Beautiful Boys recently,

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Speaker 4: and you know, I remember watching that as a teenager

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Speaker 4: and thinking, isn't this guy look how powerful Brad Pitt is.

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Speaker 3: Look at it.

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Speaker 4: He doesn't care about anything. He's just violent and he

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Speaker 4: can take a hit, you can give a hit. He

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Speaker 4: doesn't have feelings, and he just talks about that idea

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Speaker 4: of resilience being just gritting your teeth and like taking

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Speaker 4: what's yours. And it's it's hugely detrimental because it does

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Speaker 4: you know, you were probably able to watch it and say,

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Speaker 4: maybe because of your mum, you were able to watch

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Speaker 4: it and go, but that's not real life, so you

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Speaker 4: didn't carry that through. But a lot of people do.

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Speaker 4: They carry it through with them, you know. And I

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Speaker 4: still have that difficulty with how I deal with my

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Speaker 4: anger today because of the experiences through my childhood but

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Speaker 4: also the influence those cultures had on me. And you know,

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Speaker 4: I work really hard to try and get better with that,

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Speaker 4: but it takes a lot of time and effort. But

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Speaker 4: it starts with me going, this is something that's mine

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Speaker 4: to work on, and I have to take responsibility for it.

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Speaker 1: So because orderies are often saying to me, and she

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Speaker 1: said it around g when she was, you know, four

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Speaker 1: teen and fifteen, started going out to parties and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that, she's not you. Okay, she's not you, and

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Speaker 1: she's not going to do the things that you did.

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Speaker 1: And so it's really difficult.

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Speaker 2: It was really difficult.

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Speaker 1: I had to learn how to do it to kind

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Speaker 1: of remember that when you're in the moment, can you

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Speaker 1: help me understand because it's something I struggle with a

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Speaker 1: lot as well. When it's a part of being a kid,

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Speaker 1: a little kid four five six years old, hitting pushing

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Speaker 1: that is a part of figuring it out as a parent.

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Speaker 2: What are the things we can do to keep.

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Speaker 1: Our own histories with that sort of stuff to one

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Speaker 1: side and understand this is a part of them figuring

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Speaker 1: out space and boundaries and things like that, like.

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Speaker 2: What's because it's going to happen, what are the healthy

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Speaker 2: ways that we might be able to do with it?

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Speaker 3: Deal with that? Yeah, I mean it's so good and Ashua,

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Speaker 3: you obviously do it naturally.

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Speaker 4: Even your story about this morning is having an awareness

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Speaker 4: of what's happening in our own feelings because of what

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Speaker 4: is happening in the environment around us. And mindfulness has

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Speaker 4: been misinterpreted as well. True mindfulness is really just what's

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Speaker 4: the experience I'm It's not what's the reason and changing is.

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Speaker 3: It's actually just being aware of it.

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Speaker 4: And when I've got a fiery, little redheaded girl, like

401
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,960
Speaker 4: I've got a sensitive teperament, she's got a sensitive teperament

402
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Speaker 4: that's set in stone. We were genetically destined for that.

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Speaker 4: I've given it to her, so I can see me

404
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,359
Speaker 4: in her so much. But I have to be aware

405
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Speaker 4: of that and catch myself and go I've got a

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Speaker 4: risk of a trap that I'll fall into. Is supporting

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Speaker 4: her in a way that I would want to be supported.

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Speaker 4: And if I can do that first, and then I

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Speaker 4: can go in. And even I said to her mum

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Speaker 4: yesterday and clinic, who's like horrible, horrific trauma. And she's

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Speaker 4: got this gorgeous seven year old girl who you know,

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Speaker 4: I can't go into detail because of how disturbing it

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Speaker 4: is what's happened to this family. But this mum is

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Speaker 4: coming down so hard on her, like every couple of minutes,

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Speaker 4: just like punitive yelling at her, don't do this, don't

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Speaker 4: do that. And I know her well enough now, So

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Speaker 4: we talked about how do you feel when you're experiencing

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Speaker 4: that and she's not listening or she's doing something I

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Speaker 4: wanted to, And then we talked about how you need

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Speaker 4: to connect with her and then you need to actually

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Speaker 4: think what would I like her to be doing instead,

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Speaker 4: and how do I help her do that? You know,

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Speaker 4: And it's a really important thing because we often get

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Speaker 4: stuck on stop doing that, no, you know, and it

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Speaker 4: doesn't help, or you're okay, and things like that. Those

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Speaker 4: dismissive or punitive approaches not only they not help, but

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Speaker 4: they also risk shame, and shame is something that can

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Speaker 4: be hugely detrimental to our own mental health, but also

429
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Speaker 4: the attachment that we have in healthy relationships because one

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Speaker 4: of the worst things.

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Speaker 3: We do as parents is we withdraw love as a punishment.

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Speaker 4: So we say, like, I'm so angry at you because

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Speaker 4: you hurt your brother or you didn't listen to me.

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Speaker 4: So I'm going to actually pull support away, and I'm

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Speaker 4: going to make you feel like my love is conditional.

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Speaker 3: My love will come back when you comply.

437
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Speaker 4: But that's actually when we most importantly go towards kids

438
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Speaker 4: and show them how unconditionally we love them. That doesn't

439
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 4: mean we're being permissive. That doesn't mean saying do whatever

440
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 4: you want. It's saying we'll face this together, and I'll

441
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 4: actually guide you with as much support as you need

442
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 4: to succeed in the thing that I want you to

443
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:08,360
Speaker 4: be doing.

444
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,120
Speaker 1: Instead, the kind of parenting you're describing is the kind

445
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 1: of parenting I'm going to say, pretty much nobody my

446
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 1: age ever saw. That's all right, So I understand you

447
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,639
Speaker 1: when you say connect with the kid and da da da, I'm.

448
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 3: Like, and.

449
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:28,879
Speaker 2: What does that look like?

450
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:29,719
Speaker 3: All right?

451
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 1: I have no like so and I'm not alone in that,

452
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering. I don't know what I'll be. I'll

453
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 1: be It's it's three minutes left before we have got

454
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,640
Speaker 1: We've passed every little fast last flag, and we've got

455
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 1: to get in the car.

456
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 2: We've got to get out of here. We've got to

457
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:47,919
Speaker 2: get to school.

458
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 1: And I haven't finished my breakfast, but I'm still in

459
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 1: my pajamas and I'm just being just not wanting to

460
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: do anything you tell me, all right, and I'm throwing

461
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 1: stuff go.

462
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 4: So first, I'm getting real upset and annoyed, and I've

463
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:03,399
Speaker 4: got to sit with that, and I've got to own that.

464
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 4: I can't give that to you.

465
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:05,399
Speaker 3: You're a kid.

466
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 4: Next, I think, Okay, do I actually have the capacity

467
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 4: in the space to support usher in this? And if

468
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 4: I do, my first priority once i'm calm, is going

469
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,160
Speaker 4: in regulated and trying to connect with you.

470
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,239
Speaker 1: Why are you bringing all that, Dad? Why are you're

471
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 1: making a huffing, puffing noises?

472
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 3: Dad?

473
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I'm getting frustrated, But that's actually on me

474
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 4: because I should be supporting you more to meet you

475
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 4: know what we need to do this morning, And I

476
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,880
Speaker 4: can see that you really loved it. I don't want

477
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 4: to go. I can see I don't want to go. Yeah,

478
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 4: I can see that you know you're having a great time.

479
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 4: And what we're going to do is we're going to

480
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 4: come back to this, or you can bring in the

481
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:42,960
Speaker 4: car with you. But what I actually need is you

482
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 4: to show me how good you are at getting in

483
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 4: the car really fast, or helping your brother get into

484
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,919
Speaker 4: the seat, or like guiding with the direction that is

485
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,239
Speaker 4: positive that the kid is a small stretch. They can

486
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 4: achieve it quickly and you can reinforce it instantly, and

487
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 4: that's called process praise. And process pray is not you're

488
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 4: a good boy, it's what you're doing is great. And

489
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 4: process praise is actually more beneficial to intrinsic motivation because

490
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 4: it's not I neither good or bad. It's the stuff

491
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 4: that I make an effort on get celebrated and reinforces

492
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 4: the fact that I succeed in things I make an

493
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 4: effort towards. And then thinking about that but also remembering

494
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,679
Speaker 4: it's actually okay. If you're like I do not have

495
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 4: the space, I don't have the time, and I can't

496
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 4: actually regulate myself. You just need to get in the car.

497
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,120
Speaker 4: But you won't get better at it by doing those.

498
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 4: You'll get better at it by the sixty percent of

499
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 4: the time that you can get down on a kid's level,

500
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 4: like physically get down eyes at the same level of

501
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 4: below them and.

502
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 3: Just connect with them.

503
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 4: And we talk a lot as parents, especially like people

504
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 4: like you and I that like we like using words,

505
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 4: but actually a lot of it is nonverbal. A lot

506
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 4: of it is just being in the space with the

507
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 4: kid and being calm. And that's contagious because that's how

508
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 4: we're built. We're wired to attach. That's why mothers sacrifice

509
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,199
Speaker 4: so much resources for newborn babies, because attachment bonds are

510
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 4: so strong. And so if you just connect and when

511
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 4: you do talk, it's open language, it's deep, it's low,

512
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 4: and it's slow, and it's trying to understand with curiosity,

513
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 4: how can I support you better to succeed at the

514
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 4: thing I need us both to you know, that's and

515
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 4: I like, I'm very lucky that I'm very trained in

516
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 4: this space. But also I've got thousands and thousands of

517
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 4: kids that have met me in the worst times and

518
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 4: have come out the other side, either as little toddlers

519
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 4: or teens entering adulthood. And it's this beautiful privilege to

520
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 4: watch the evidence actually work in real life for all

521
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 4: those kids. And so I know where to put the

522
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 4: money and where to invest in my own kids, you know,

523
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 4: And it's not telling them to say please and thank you,

524
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 4: and you know, this is how we sit it at

525
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 4: a dinner table. It's understanding why we do those things

526
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 4: instead because it makes the other person feel good, It

527
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 4: helps them feel a connection, It makes them more likely

528
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 4: in the future to want to help us and be

529
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 4: around us, you know, all those things.

530
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 3: And I've got a really bright three year old, but.

531
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 4: She's also like me, she's really emotionally sensitive, so she

532
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 4: disregulates quickly like I do. So I need to help

533
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 4: her with that and her and I directly work on that.

534
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 4: And the last time that she'll succeed that is in

535
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 4: the most challenging spaces. No, you know, we learn these

536
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 4: skills in safe relationships and safe environments with low levels

537
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 4: of distress, not completely disregulated and throwing chairs and breaking

538
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 4: stuff and potentially hurting ourselves and others. That's the last

539
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 4: time we get better at it. And all of us

540
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 4: as adults still fail at times with that. And that's

541
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,719
Speaker 4: okay because we're humans. But as long as people know

542
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 4: that it's not all the time. But I think it

543
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 4: is important to understand the more times that you do

544
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 4: it well, the more likely the kid is to get

545
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 4: closer to independence in that skill set, whether it's emotional regulation, empathy, whatever.

546
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: So it's offering rather than you're doing this because I'm saying, so,

547
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,959
Speaker 1: it's let's do this and let's celebrate how we go.

548
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: Would that be what you would describe as process praise?

549
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 3: Definitely? Yeah, it's beautiful. You know. I wonder I'll shore

550
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 3: if you in terms of like, do you think the

551
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 3: majority of the times that you are interacting and connecting

552
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 3: with your kid it's a positive one?

553
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: I would say yeah. I mean, if a majority to

554
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,199
Speaker 1: win an election is fifty one percent, say, I'd say

555
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 1: it's probably sixty forty, seventy thirty.

556
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: But I think that's probably fairly normal.

557
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 4: You know, well, yeah, so I meet heaps of parents

558
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 4: every single day and clinic where that ratio is off.

559
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 4: It's more punitive, it's more negativity. It's more like dysregulation

560
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 4: and yeah, telling them off and punishments, and it's really

561
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 4: easy to get caught in that rush. But you, you

562
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 4: and I, when we're in that right, we need to

563
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 4: get out of it. Not our kids. Unconditional love and

564
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 4: positive regard should exist to those we care about, regardless

565
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,239
Speaker 4: of whether they send it back to us. You know,

566
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 4: that's when you prove it. You prove it when it's

567
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,959
Speaker 4: still there, when they're driving you crazy, they're not listening

568
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 4: to you, they're not respecting it, and they're being hurtful.

569
00:26:58,480 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 3: Because a lot of the.

570
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 4: Kids that I see that are outcasts from society have

571
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 4: really never experienced that. And you know, that's multi generational trauma.

572
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 4: Their parents are no lesser parents than you and me.

573
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 4: They just carry more weight than we do from their

574
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 4: own childhood experiences and no one's guided them.

575
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 3: To a better way.

576
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 4: And I have the huge privilege of meeting those and

577
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,199
Speaker 4: some of the best parents that I've ever met. As

578
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 4: step parents, you know, or foster carers, we're not better

579
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 4: at it if we're biologically connected to kids. Sometimes it

580
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 4: makes it harder because we see ourselves in them so much,

581
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 4: you know, or our expectation is so high, and that's

582
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 4: most of the time. What we work on is like,

583
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 4: actually drop the expectation. And a beautiful woman that I

584
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 4: have the privilege of knowing called Rebecca Harris, who worked

585
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 4: as a well being lead in one of the most

586
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 4: disadvantaged primary schools in Victoria. She talks about how some

587
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 4: kids just need to be celebrated for how good they

588
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:52,959
Speaker 4: are walking through doors.

589
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 3: And the point of that story is like, how.

590
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 4: Do we change the narrative around a lot of the

591
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 4: kids that are struggling because so many of them they

592
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 4: kind of become who they hear they are. And that

593
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 4: was me, Like I got kicked out of high school

594
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 4: and no high schools around wanted me to come because

595
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 4: of how bad the narrative was around me. So I

596
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 4: almost didn't finish high school because of that. And it

597
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 4: was important, you know, for me to understand that when

598
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 4: I finally got to a space where it wasn't conditional,

599
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 4: then I was able to be myself and I stopped

600
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 4: fighting authority, you know, and started dealing with some.

601
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 3: Of the issues.

602
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 4: It took me over ten years to actually start genuinely

603
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 4: addressing them, but you know, they're really important things for

604
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 4: us to help with our kids. And I can see

605
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 4: that you're doing that even the way you talk about

606
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 4: your kids and your role is the one that takes

607
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 4: the ownership of things aren't going well, that's actually on me.

608
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: I'm trying trying, I'm not getting it right. No one's

609
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: getting it right, no one's getting it perfect. When it

610
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: if anyone's then a couple's counseling, and I've done it before.

611
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: The first thing they basically tell you is, don't come

612
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: here and sit on this couch with the two of

613
00:28:58,120 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: you expecting me to change the other person.

614
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 2: This is only going to change if you change.

615
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering how similar is that to the kind

616
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: of work you do when it comes to kids and

617
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: parents who come to you saying, Ah, you know, he's

618
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: driving me nuts, he's doing this and doing that, or

619
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: she's you know, won't listen, or they're throwing this, like fix.

620
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 3: Them, Yeah, totally.

621
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 4: So I always have to build the trust of the

622
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 4: parents first, and I have to therapeutically give them the

623
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 4: space to kind of express all those things that they're

624
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 4: being frustrated by and worried about. But often we'll then

625
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,479
Speaker 4: get to a point where I'll start introducing questions.

626
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 3: Like I wonder why.

627
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 4: I wonder why that's happening, Like I don't think he's

628
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 4: getting up in the morning and planning to be kicked

629
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 4: out of school that day, or make you have an

630
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 4: awful time or scream at you for the afternoon. I

631
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 4: wonder why, Because there aren't any bad kids I've met

632
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 4: the so called worst of them for years and years

633
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 4: and years, and they're not bad kids. Kids are not

634
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 4: innately built like that. They all want to connect, they

635
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 4: all want to succeed, but a lot of them just

636
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 4: get caught up in unhealthy patterns where their needs aren't

637
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,479
Speaker 4: being mesh because people don't understand what those are, or

638
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 4: they say he's a certain age, he should know better

639
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 4: by now, which is really destructive, and so it makes

640
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 4: it hard and probably the hardest job that I have

641
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 4: in clinic is convincing parents to seek mental health support

642
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 4: for themselves. And it's really interesting, Asha because I will

643
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 4: frequently meet, especially dads that are like I got kids

644
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 4: that are suicidal and self harming and all the really

645
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 4: awful stuff that too many people have to experience. And

646
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 4: I'll say, I just don't understand why he won't go

647
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 4: and see a psychologist, or when he goes, he doesn't

648
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 4: talk to them, and all that stuff. And then we'll

649
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 4: kind of give some space, and I'll be like, do

650
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 4: you do you go and see someone? And they'll go

651
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 4: n to waste the time, and it's like, it's crazy,

652
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 4: when your kid's life is on the line, they still

653
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 4: think there's no value in it, but they get for themselves.

654
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 4: But they get frustrated, and the problem is that unintentionally

655
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 4: role modeling that to those teenagers and saying I need

656
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 4: you to go, but I'm not going. And it's a

657
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 4: bit like even on a simpler, less scared level, you know,

658
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 4: why doesn't my kid respect me? You learn about respect

659
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 4: by how experiencing it coming.

660
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 3: To you first? Do you know what I mean?

661
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 4: As a child and a teenager? And then you go, oh,

662
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 4: that's cool. I had a voice, I said no one

663
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 4: it was respected. You know when I said I did

664
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 4: he want to do something? I was asked why a

665
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 4: person tried to understand why I'm getting frustrated? All that

666
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 4: stuff that's respect, and then you start understanding why you

667
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 4: give it to other people because you've felt it first yourself.

668
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 4: And so it's really important that we kind of understand

669
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 4: the processes that these kids are going through. And the

670
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 4: most likely reason a kid is consistently failing is because

671
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 4: the expectation is too much. And the best thing you

672
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 4: can do is actually drop the expectation, start where they're at,

673
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 4: connected them, and stretch them from there on the specific

674
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 4: things that you want to work with them.

675
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 3: At so many parents, I'm like, what are you working on?

676
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 4: And they're like, by him just listening to me or

677
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 4: not behaving or doing what on' what he's told. I'm like,

678
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 4: that's so vague, Like how can you target that? Whereas

679
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 4: if you can be what we're actually working on is

680
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 4: getting out of the house in the morning without a fight,

681
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 4: then you're like, sweet, that's specific. We can do that,

682
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 4: and I want to That's what we're going to aim for.

683
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 3: So you get to the point where that doesn't happen

684
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,959
Speaker 3: anymore at all, we'll understand why it's happening, and then

685
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 3: we'll build the skill set in everyone in the family

686
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 3: to actually connect with each other and support each other

687
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 3: so that success comes. And too many families just accept

688
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 3: that that's what life is.

689
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 4: But it shouldn't be like that. There's a reason it's

690
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 4: like that, and it's not because you're a bad parent.

691
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 3: It's just you haven't been given the guidance and understanding

692
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: and know how to support kids and that stuff, which

693
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 3: is what I really love doing.

694
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: Obviously, we need to take a very quick break.

695
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: If you are enjoying the show, please consider sharing this

696
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: episode with someone you think would like this episode and

697
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: do follow the podcast wherever you can.

698
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: We're back in just a moment.

699
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: Through the work you're doing, as you mentioned earlier, you

700
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: are in contact with kids that are as you said

701
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: yourself just then, you said the worst of the worst

702
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: when you see policy, like for example, in Queensland, it

703
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: fits great on a billboard when I'm driving out to

704
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: Bribi Island, is that we in laws adult time for

705
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: adult crime. If you're prepared to comment on.

706
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 3: It, like I'm more than prepared to ya.

707
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: What do people need to understand about juvenile crime as

708
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: a symptom.

709
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a symptom, and it's not a symptom of

710
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 3: the kid. It's a symptom of a society that doesn't

711
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 3: support everyone in it. And it's not the parent's responsibility.

712
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 3: People who say where was the parents or why did

713
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 3: the parent not catch this earlier don't understand that it's

714
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 3: actually all of our responsibility. And that's what the evidence

715
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 3: shows is if we want safer communities, we actually all

716
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 3: have to take responsibility. In every single one of those

717
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 3: kids I've ever met shot up flair for years that

718
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 3: they needed more support and they were told they're bad

719
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 3: kids because they had ADHD or learning difficulty or other

720
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 3: conditions like that, and they just got left out.

721
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 4: They got expelled from schools. And I've done a PhD

722
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 4: with schools like I'm very privileged to have learned a

723
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 4: lot from educators and they're the most important professionals in

724
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 4: our community.

725
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 3: But schools that expel kids.

726
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 4: Will often argue we need to make sure that the

727
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 4: kids who aren't acting like this are protected and safe.

728
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 4: But actually, what the evidence strongly shows is that schools

729
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 4: that expel kids are worse for the kids that are

730
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 4: left behind. It is a symptom of a school that

731
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 4: does not know how to support kids with emotional behavioral difficulties.

732
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 4: And that's why my PhD was in building the capacity

733
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 4: of educators to support kids of emotional behavioral difficulties and

734
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 4: the punitive approaches. We know these kids, there's a big

735
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,280
Speaker 4: percentage of them, twenty five to fifty percent in some states,

736
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 4: will reoffend within twelve months. That is a kid showing

737
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 4: you that the punitive approaches are not helping. Like this

738
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 4: is not a supportive approach. This is one that thinks

739
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 4: that if we hurt them afterwards and shame them and

740
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 4: strike them out, even more from society that somehow they'll

741
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 4: reflect on it and go, I'll never do that again.

742
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 3: But that's ridiculous. We need to show these kids.

743
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 4: That we come in around them when they're struggling, when

744
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 4: they're being violent, when they're acting out. It's not that

745
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 4: there isn't consequences, but the difference between a consequence and

746
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 4: a punishment is a punishment intends to hurt you. A

747
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 4: consequence is to help you learn. And you have to

748
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 4: know the consequence before you act out the behavior and

749
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 4: understand why and be capable of not acting out the behavior.

750
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 4: So many of these kids have really unhealthy ways that

751
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 4: they deal with anger because that's all they ever learned,

752
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 4: that's all they ever witnessed. And their parents are just

753
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 4: drowning in carrying so much weight around. Whether it's poverty,

754
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 4: whether it's parental mental illness, developmental trauma, intimate partner violence.

755
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 4: This stuff is rife in our communities and we need

756
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 4: to start taking a collective responsibility for us. And I'm

757
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 4: always happy to get on a soapbox and talk about

758
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 4: that because it needs to happen. It's probably the most

759
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 4: important thing we can do. Just that and the environment

760
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 4: and the two things that really scare me about the

761
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 4: future from my little kids.

762
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 2: What you just said, absolutely I'm on board.

763
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: And there's someone in my life who was the victim

764
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: of a home invasion to the point where this person

765
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: no longer felt safe and now left the city. They

766
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: are still with their partner, but their partner travels down

767
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: to be with them because they just don't feel safe

768
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: at all to be anywhere near that. What you just said,

769
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: the empathy and compassion around that those kids, I absolutely

770
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: agree with. And how would you talk to this person

771
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: whose life has been altered completely by this moment about

772
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: how to access that empathy for these kids.

773
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 3: I would say, I'm so sorry that's happened to you.

774
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 3: That is so awful.

775
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 4: We was robbed three times growing up, like and experienced

776
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 4: terrible's local time. Yeah, and it's like that trauma never

777
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 4: leaves you, really, like that's the hard thing about it.

778
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 4: And that person and I'm angry for them, should be

779
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 4: angry at the border community, the people with power that

780
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 4: have made it so hard to get mental health supports,

781
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 4: so hard to get support around families that are struggling,

782
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 4: Like I work within those systems and they are so

783
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 4: dysfunctional and sometimes it feels like they're intentionally dysfunctional because

784
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 4: they want to make it harder and harder for people

785
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 4: to get support because other people are hoarding resources and saying,

786
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 4: you know, actually, we know there's a thing called the

787
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 4: inverse care law that all of the mental health conditions

788
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 4: exist in the communities that least need them, the affluent communities,

789
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 4: not that they don't need them, but their rates of

790
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 4: mental illness in those children and teenagers is lower than

791
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 4: the disadvantaged communities. But none, none of the professionals work

792
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 4: in them, because why would you get paid twice as

793
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 4: much to sit in the inner east of Melbourne and

794
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 4: I can if I've got a clinic set up out

795
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 4: west And it's just unacceptable and like this has to change,

796
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 4: It has to change now.

797
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 3: That's how you protect people from future home invasions, future

798
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 3: intimate partner violence, you know, future assaults.

799
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 4: All that stuff is like, but we don't we focus.

800
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 4: We talk about this a lot as being at the

801
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 4: ambulances at the bottom of the cliff and just sending

802
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 4: more ambulances to the bottom of the cliff and not

803
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 4: actually getting up on the cliff and going We need

804
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 4: to educate people about how dangerous. This is we need

805
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 4: to put safety measures in place so that we don't

806
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 4: need to send the ambulances down there anymore.

807
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: That's a harsh metaphor fuck.

808
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 3: Me totally, but it's wild.

809
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 4: That's what's happening, and it will keep happening if we

810
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 4: keep focusing on like what age to put these kids

811
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 4: into jail or how long to put them in jail

812
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 4: for that's a symptom of us and our needs to

813
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 4: be better, not a single parents or a bad kid.

814
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,399
Speaker 3: And it infuriates me, like, and I do so much

815
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 3: work in that space because I care so much about it,

816
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 3: but it's selfish. I'm not doing it because I'm a

817
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 3: nice guy. I'm doing it because I've got two little

818
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 3: kids that are coming up and a third one on

819
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 3: the way. And the evidence is there's a thirty percent

820
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 3: chance to avest is going to experience intimate partner violence,

821
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 3: and we know the actual rates are way higher than

822
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 3: that because most people don't disclose it that's happened to them.

823
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: Everything you just said is amazing, yet will not fit

824
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: on a billboard driving out of you know, and that's

825
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: that's the really hard part about I want to ask

826
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: you know, the last month of our lives in this

827
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 1: community that we live in has been just dominated with

828
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 1: conversations about a television show that came out on a Netflix,

829
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: a television show called adolescence. For you, as a pediatrician

830
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: trying to parent, very difficult to set your clinical brain

831
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: aside understanding what's going on while you're emotional. I'm sitting

832
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: there watching it, going, holy fuck, man, that's a gimbal

833
00:39:58,120 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: that's been passed through a window and look at that

834
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: life that's like to the production because there's all that

835
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: in one shot. If you haven't seen it, there's potentially

836
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: spoilers going to come up.

837
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: When did you start realizing that this.

838
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: Was something that was connecting with people that people start

839
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 1: reaching out to you about it.

840
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, lots and lots, and I've watched it because of

841
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 4: how much I was getting asked to talk about it.

842
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 4: You know, you can understand why it's connected so well

843
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 4: with everyone because I think, as you said, it was

844
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 4: beautifully done and beautifully actor looks amazing all that stuff,

845
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 4: and there's an amazing.

846
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 3: Dialogue in it.

847
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 4: But it's a really powerful piece that I think is

848
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 4: missing something really important, which is what do we do

849
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 4: about it? You know, and I think that if it

850
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 4: helps create awareness of how vulnerable a lot of these

851
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 4: little boys are, and they are, they're little boys, they're

852
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 4: not evil men. But if it can show us that

853
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 4: and then give us the pathway to actually step in

854
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 4: and support them. And you see that depiction through that

855
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 4: show so much, you know, classic classic stuff. He talks

856
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 4: about how the kid was bad at soccer. He put

857
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 4: him into soccer because he's getting bullied in teas, and

858
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,280
Speaker 4: he couldn't look at him when he failed.

859
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 3: He's like, he's crap at it.

860
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 4: And the kid remembers looking over to his dad and

861
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 4: his dad not supporting him when he was failing at soccer,

862
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:05,800
Speaker 4: and so his dad goes, I'll put him into boxing.

863
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 4: Then that all solvash instead of going, actually, I need

864
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,399
Speaker 4: to connect with this kid and help build his self

865
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 4: esteem through him valuing himself intrinsically and seeing success in

866
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 4: the things he makes effort on and cares about, you know,

867
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 4: And you see it all through that show that dad

868
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 4: tried to break a cycle of trauma and him, but

869
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 4: he didn't know how to do something better. He just

870
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 4: knew how to stop doing one destructive thing that happened

871
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 4: to him. You look at the schools. Schools are like that.

872
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 4: There's these communities that are drowning in schools. And this

873
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 4: is why my PhD was in this space because if

874
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 4: you're a remember, all of the educators are coming down

875
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 4: really hard. They're being authoritarian and they're standing over kids.

876
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 4: And what kids learn is I can't wait to be

877
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 4: the one to stand over someone else. And a lot

878
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 4: of those boys go home to mums and stand over

879
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 4: them because the patriarchy has hurt them so much. That's why,

880
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 4: you know, we blame women for how high the suicide

881
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 4: rates are in men.

882
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 3: It's patriarchy's fault.

883
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 4: It's taught us that you push down feelings, that you

884
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 4: use violence to get respect, that you know, women are trophies.

885
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 4: That you know, gay men aren't real men, like we

886
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 4: shouldn't do chores. All of this stuff. This evidence has

887
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 4: been out since Paul Cavell looked at it in the eighties.

888
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 3: We've known about this stuff. Those factors in your belief

889
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 3: systems increase your rates of intimate partner violence, of mental illness,

890
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 3: of suicidality, of alcoholism, gambling, all of that stuff. And

891
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 3: what that show showed is that it happens at a

892
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 3: very young age. And these kids are looking for their

893
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 3: place in the world and they will find it in

894
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 3: these toxic online communities if they don't find it in

895
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 3: real life. And that's we have to bring these kids in,

896
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 3: you know, when they're struggling and realize that lots of

897
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,320
Speaker 3: them have actual diagnosable mental illness. This is baseline rates

898
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 3: of one in seven. Like, that's a lot of kids.

899
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 3: You know, fourteen percent of kids from four years of age.

900
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 3: This is not a teenage thing. These kids are not

901
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 3: getting the support that they need because people just think

902
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 3: we'll just leave alone. Thirty three percent of adults in

903
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,479
Speaker 3: Australia think that mental illness in kids is just best

904
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 3: left alone. It's wild. You know.

905
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,720
Speaker 4: Two thirds of them aren't confident they could recognize signs

906
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 4: of mental illness in kids.

907
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 3: It's wild, Like, how do we change that?

908
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 4: And that's I'm trying to bring the evidence out into

909
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 4: this space because it'll make the society safer for my

910
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 4: own kids, Like most of their life, I'm not going

911
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 4: to be around to protect them.

912
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 3: So this is this is why this matters to me.

913
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 4: And I think if that TV show helped raise awareness,

914
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 4: then it's really powerful. But I just think it would

915
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 4: have been great if it had what do we actually

916
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 4: do about it?

917
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 3: And it never really showed us that.

918
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: I listen, I got right right into it, and I

919
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: started well, certainly with the production of it and the

920
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 1: story behind it and how it came up, and I

921
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 1: was listening to the writer they addressed this question, and

922
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: it was a deliberate move because the idea was that

923
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,479
Speaker 1: then the conversation would be had about what happens now,

924
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:14,879
Speaker 1: because that.

925
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 2: Was what was important.

926
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

927
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 4: I think the hard thing is I show that most

928
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 4: people that are speaking to it don't actually have the

929
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 4: qualifications to be talking about that stuff, you know what

930
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 4: I mean. And so if you think about it, if

931
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 4: this was cancer, you'd be letting people who actually know

932
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 4: about chemotherapy and all.

933
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: The side that's Apple Cider Vinego still on Netflix with

934
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: a different show. But yeah, that did show that they

935
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: did show people that didn't know what they were doing

936
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: talking about.

937
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 3: That's most people.

938
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned not being able to recognize symptoms or

939
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: signs of mental illness and kids, you know, because we

940
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: talked about parents trying to seek help. I mean, this

941
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: is what Eddie the dad, you know, they both tried,

942
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: but they were just had they just didn't have had nothing,

943
00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 1: the empty pencil case, they had nothing to write with. Right, So,

944
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: when it comes to trying to recognize things in kids,

945
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: what are some things in that and that show that

946
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: depicted clear signs that we could identify and go, oh,

947
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 1: that's what that looks like.

948
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 2: This is a problem.

949
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 4: He was really you know, shut out this kind of

950
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 4: you know, we hear about this toxic alpha male you

951
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 4: know approach that the community that he's outcast from is there.

952
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 3: You know, bullying should not exist in schools.

953
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 4: We know the evidence of how to prevent it, but

954
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 4: often we wait until it happens and then we come

955
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,919
Speaker 4: in and try and resolve it. You know, that kid

956
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 4: was really you know, struggling with self esteem, and often

957
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 4: you know, thinking about that, everyone thinks, I want a

958
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 4: kid to have high self esteem, but what you actually

959
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 4: want is secure self esteem. They can take on feedback

960
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 4: and it doesn't crush them. They're not transactional in their relationships.

961
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,800
Speaker 4: You know, they can fail at something and have growth

962
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 4: from it. All of those things as signs of normal, healthy,

963
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 4: secure self esteem.

964
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 3: The other thing is that you.

965
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 4: Know, he really struggle to get any support and any

966
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 4: practical stuff. You know, his dad even really struggles to

967
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 4: be affectionate, where his dad can't deal with his own

968
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,399
Speaker 4: emotions outside of aggression and anger. You know, the kid,

969
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 4: they weren't having conversations. It came out of nowhere, but

970
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 4: you could kind of tell that they didn't know who

971
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 4: this kid was anymore.

972
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 3: And you know, building that, you know.

973
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 4: Proactively into our relationships with all of our kids so

974
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,919
Speaker 4: that we don't wait until they're drowning and then say, hey,

975
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 4: what's going on? You know, how do we have sanctuaries

976
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 4: that just celebrate who the kid is? Even asking you

977
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 4: at the start of our conversation, like, how often is

978
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 4: it just fun and joy and positivity with the kids

979
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 4: that are in your care? And we got caught up

980
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 4: in so much of life that makes it quite hard

981
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 4: to prioritize that. But I would argue that is more

982
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 4: important than how many vegetables your kids eat? How good

983
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 4: about reading and writing? How good they are doing maths?

984
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 4: How good about riding a bike? Like, the biggest predictor

985
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 4: of success through life is your social and emotional development.

986
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 4: The problem is everyone feels lost in how to actually

987
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 4: guide kids through that and recognize when they're struggling with it.

988
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 4: And I mean, I can do ten hours just on

989
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 4: that topic, but it's really important that you understand. That's

990
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,479
Speaker 4: the bit to invest in with kids. The other thing

991
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 4: I show you know, you're asking about what are the

992
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 4: signs aggression? Aggression is a sign of anxiety in childhood,

993
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 4: it's not. It's the same as depression, aggression and agitation.

994
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 4: That's not the elderly is similar. It's only adults that

995
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 4: really have that low, really flashed or I'm really scared

996
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 4: and anxious. You know, they'll struggle to focus and need

997
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 4: constant reassurance. Their body is often telling them they got

998
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,720
Speaker 4: a sort tummy or a headache, or they feel tired.

999
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 3: They're not making those feelings up.

1000
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 4: That's how a childhood and adolescent brain often translates I'm

1001
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 4: feeling really lower, I'm feeling really scared, and so you know,

1002
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,280
Speaker 4: recognizing that if a kid is struggling with those things,

1003
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 4: then they need you to come in and support them

1004
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 4: and connect with them and try and understand their perspective

1005
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,280
Speaker 4: and experience. And if you're doing that, helping them regulate,

1006
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 4: helping them think about how healthier ways to handle rejection

1007
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 4: or not feeling good enough and all of that stuff,

1008
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 4: and you're drowning. You should reach out to professionals and

1009
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 4: it should be easy to access those people and educators,

1010
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 4: general practitioners, maternal child health news is. All of these

1011
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 4: guys are like the coal Front specialists that are doing

1012
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 4: amazing work.

1013
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 3: They just need to be better supported. And that's a

1014
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 3: lot of the work that I do.

1015
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 4: I can get more reach if I, you know, support

1016
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 4: those professionals that are actually doing all the hard work

1017
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:27,240
Speaker 4: to support these families and their kids.

1018
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 1: You mentioned the stakes as to why you do this,

1019
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: and I certainly think about that as well, and that

1020
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: your job is to deliver this person at eighteen, you know, okay, healthy,

1021
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 1: a decent human being and someone who's going to make

1022
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: the community that you all live in a better place.

1023
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 2: But that's me. I have the capacity in the space.

1024
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: And you know, we have a relationship with my wife

1025
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: and I were families together. We have the time and

1026
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: we think about this kind of stuff. But that's not

1027
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: my mum who's by herself with four kids, four boys

1028
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 1: who are or three of us were pre puberty at

1029
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 1: the same time. So the houseman's like sweat and come

1030
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: and rotten food and just like it.

1031
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 5: Was it was you know, but that's your teenage boys,

1032
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 5: So how do you speak How do you speak to

1033
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 5: the parent who's busiest shit going like, yeah, that's all

1034
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 5: well and good for you guys to talk about that,

1035
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 5: but I'm so busy keeping the lights on.

1036
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, drop the demands around it as much as you can. Yeah,

1037
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 4: it's the same mush like I grew up. You know,

1038
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 4: they're often wasn't food in the house. Like So if

1039
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 4: I said to my mum, hey, go and listen to

1040
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 4: his parenting podcast where this guy bangs on about this

1041
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,320
Speaker 4: for two hours, you know, she would have been probably

1042
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 4: pretty upset, all laughed at me about it's the same

1043
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 4: as the book I wrote. I don't think that book

1044
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 4: is being read by people like my mum, and I

1045
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 4: don't think the podcast has been listened to it either.

1046
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,799
Speaker 4: So we need to collectively have responsibility of taking some

1047
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 4: weight off those people's shoulders financially, you know, mentally, you

1048
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 4: know all of the bits, how do we connect them

1049
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:01,439
Speaker 4: to community? Also remembering that like we have a role

1050
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 4: that the evidence can guide us on. One of the

1051
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,359
Speaker 4: most protective things we can do for teenagers at risk

1052
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 4: is be non parental adult to take a genuine interest

1053
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 4: in them, you know. And I was lucky that I

1054
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 4: had a couple of people like that that buffered me

1055
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 4: against all the awful stuff I was experiencing. And how

1056
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 4: do we do that?

1057
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 3: We know, every single school should be a positive experience

1058
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 3: for the kids that are in it, and the way

1059
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,280
Speaker 3: that you do that is you make sure that every

1060
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 3: single kid in that community genuinely and.

1061
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 4: Honestly feels like they're a positive element of that community,

1062
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,439
Speaker 4: and that community is richer and stronger because of them.

1063
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 4: And that's what true inclusion is. True inclusion is not

1064
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 4: a kindness. Will be collectively stronger if we understand how

1065
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 4: to access the strengths of every single kid in our community,

1066
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 4: and every kid has the potential.

1067
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 3: Way too many kids that are like school just sucks.

1068
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,240
Speaker 4: And it's not the completely responsibility of the schools either,

1069
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 4: especially with rates of mental illness being so high. But

1070
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 4: also one of the biggest reasons of early educator burnout

1071
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 4: is behavioral difficulties in kids. They're not trained in how

1072
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 4: to understand it, identify it, and support it. And so

1073
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 4: how do we as a community start prioritizing this stuff?

1074
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 4: And then you take some of that weight off the

1075
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 4: single parent. The mom's like my mum and your mum

1076
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 4: that are doing this too much. But I bet you

1077
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 4: our show, if you think about it, there was something

1078
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,840
Speaker 4: that your mom did that made you such a pro social,

1079
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 4: healthy person. You might not like that compliment, but you

1080
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 4: know you're prioritizing your own mental health, given you're prioritizing

1081
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 4: those in your care, and you're doing advocacacy work to

1082
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 4: try and support the broader community. And I bet you

1083
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 4: it was because there's something about your mum.

1084
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: I think it was both seeing both of my parents

1085
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: engage in help seeking behavior, and as they're both doctors,

1086
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 1: and so also seeing that if something they didn't know

1087
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 1: the answer to something, they would call I don't know,

1088
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm going to call he's the gastroine orologist,

1089
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 1: look for him, and make it mean nothing about how

1090
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 1: great an Nicasus they were. You know that they don't

1091
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: know the answer to that, And so that was I

1092
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: think the thing that ultimately did help a lot was

1093
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: was that and seeing them be cool with what does

1094
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,399
Speaker 1: the evidence say we got lucky in that we were

1095
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: raised like that. Let's just say, for example, you know

1096
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: you're sitting down with the piget Netflix and Okay, doctor Billy,

1097
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: what's episode five, what's episode five of adolescens look like?

1098
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:28,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question.

1099
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 4: I think what it would look like is how the

1100
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 4: community responded and they took some ownership everyone in that

1101
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 4: community for the kids that were getting lost. And that's

1102
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 4: how you protect the girls, you know what I mean,

1103
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 4: make it so that the boys aren't behaving that way

1104
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 4: and you understand the reason why there's such antisocial behavior

1105
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 4: risk taking and violence and aggression and kind of you know,

1106
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 4: things like intimate partner violence. And it would be a

1107
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 4: collective responsibility of one that kind of, for example, set

1108
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 4: up ways to support young mums. You know, they're really vulnerable,

1109
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 4: they're so isolated, and how do we come in and

1110
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 4: around them. And the way that we do it is

1111
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 4: we build protective relationships within the community. Not you know,

1112
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 4: even there's a bit boring, but community health centers and

1113
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 4: hospitals should be owned by the community. The community should

1114
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 4: walk into those spaces and feel like they're theirs. That's

1115
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 4: why people connect so well with a footy club because

1116
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,919
Speaker 4: they're like, this is my space. The problem is there's

1117
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 4: a lot of you know, patriarchal or toxic masculinity in

1118
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 4: those spaces that you and I know about that reinforces

1119
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 4: that behavior. So how do we challenge that collectively where

1120
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 4: we see it, that idea that men are tough, that

1121
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 4: women are objects, you know, all of that stuff, and

1122
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 4: call it out and challenges and put better behaviors and

1123
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 4: ideals in that space for everyone and celebrate.

1124
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:48,839
Speaker 3: And we don't do it punitively.

1125
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 4: We don't do it from like moral perfection perspective that

1126
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 4: makes other people feel guilty because they might be saying

1127
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:57,399
Speaker 4: the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing. We give

1128
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 4: them opportunities to learn better because, like you has talked about,

1129
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 4: you'll have a richer, healthier life because of it. Your

1130
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 4: relationships will be better, you'll feel better about yourself. When

1131
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 4: you do struggle, we'll catch it earlier and do the

1132
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 4: things you need to do. Like that's how we do it.

1133
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 4: We just put all the support around, all the parents,

1134
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 4: but also all the professionals that day in day out

1135
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 4: are supporting these kids in how they do it. So

1136
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 4: that would be a beautiful episode five of that that

1137
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 4: community collectively heals through that.

1138
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 1: You mentioned something earlier which I really stuck on and

1139
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 1: it's what helped me, and you mentioned it helped you

1140
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 1: as well. How as far as I understand it certainly

1141
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 1: as young men, I don't know if it's the same

1142
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: for young women. We're kind of biologically wired to seek

1143
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 1: out someone around our father's age but is our dad,

1144
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 1: and almost we're wired to see them as a guidance

1145
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 1: sort of a mentor. And they could say the same

1146
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 1: thing to me that my dad would say, and it

1147
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:58,280
Speaker 1: would mean so much more because they weren't my dad.

1148
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 2: And so what can we as grown dudes, what.

1149
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: Role can we play in the lives of other teenage kids?

1150
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 1: And you know the teenage kids are friends of ours.

1151
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, connect with them, value them for who they are,

1152
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 3: show interest in who they are, show them your emotional struggles.

1153
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 4: You know, my daughter, at two and a half years

1154
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 4: of age, said she wants to be a boy, and

1155
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:24,439
Speaker 4: my partner said why, and she said, because boys don't cry,

1156
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 4: you know, like they need to see men crying. They

1157
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 4: need to see men struggling, not feeling good enough, and

1158
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 4: then working through how do we deal with it in

1159
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 4: ways that isn't just external expressions of anger and violence?

1160
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 4: You know, how do we start kind of idolizing men

1161
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 4: that do that type of thing. You know, they don't

1162
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 4: have athletic pross and bury their feelings and just punch

1163
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 4: people when they're angry, but they actually take responsibility for

1164
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 4: it and say, actually, I should be doing better. I'm

1165
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 4: really struggling with this express their emotions and help seeking

1166
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 4: behavior that your parents showed you just valuing these kids

1167
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 4: like I'm I've learned this off the professionals to do

1168
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,640
Speaker 4: the actual work, whether they're in the police or they're educator,

1169
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 4: as they're social workers, like these guys are amazing. They

1170
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:09,880
Speaker 4: just get down to these kids and show them that

1171
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 4: they care about them despite how they're behaving and acting,

1172
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,800
Speaker 4: because they understand it's not their fault and they're curious

1173
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 4: to understand why and actually help them through that process.

1174
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 3: That's how we do it.

1175
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 1: I just as you mentioned that, I was thinking about

1176
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 1: the guy who plays the cop who's checking the young

1177
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 1: boy in in episode one, and just the gentle kindness

1178
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 1: in his voice. He clearly knows exactly why he's there.

1179
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: He's probably seen the video. But you're doing really well, mate,

1180
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 1: You're doing so well. This part will be over soon.

1181
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:40,879
Speaker 1: Just the way that he spoke to him. I got

1182
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: so much from that. It's like, all right, Alex mentioned before.

1183
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 1: I might not have seen that when I was younger. No,

1184
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,399
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody my age did. But ah, that's

1185
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: what it looks like. That was what it looks like,

1186
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: or can look like, to speak really kindly in a

1187
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:56,800
Speaker 1: really intense situation to someone.

1188
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1189
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,399
Speaker 4: Well, paramedics have taught me that because they find one

1190
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 4: of the most helpful things they can do when someone's

1191
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 4: disregulated and violent, is connected with them and say I'm

1192
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,840
Speaker 4: so sorry this is happening to you, you know, because

1193
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 4: it is.

1194
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:12,360
Speaker 3: It's an awful experience.

1195
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:14,399
Speaker 4: And I often talk about kids in the classroom who

1196
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 4: are really disregulating and being violent, and they're the ones

1197
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 4: that feel the least safe, you know, and we have

1198
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 4: to remember that. It's hard because we have to protect

1199
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 4: ourselves and other kids, but remembering that that kid feels

1200
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 4: really unsafe. And it's really funny, Osha, because there's even

1201
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 4: some evidence around partnership approaches therapeutically using quiet enthusiasm and say,

1202
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 4: you know, you're a teenager and you're struggling, and I'm like, mate,

1203
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 4: what are you talking about. You're going to be an astronaut,

1204
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 4: like you're probably going to kill cancer, Like all of

1205
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 4: this is going to be fine.

1206
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 3: You're the best kid in the world.

1207
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 4: It's very hard to believe that, where if I'm quietly

1208
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 4: enthusiastic and think, hey, I'm sure, I notice is hard

1209
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 4: and I'm so sorry and I want to support you better.

1210
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 3: But I actually think you have huge potential. I think

1211
00:57:57,360 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 3: there's going to be such a bright future for you

1212
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 3: when I figure out how to support you better and

1213
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 3: how to guide you better. And we're going to now

1214
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 3: today start working on all the amazing things about you

1215
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 3: being a bigger part of your life. And I can't

1216
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 3: wait to see you have the life and future that

1217
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 3: you deserve. Do you know what I mean? That's more believable,

1218
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 3: isn't it.

1219
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 2: Yeah? And you know, look the tears in my eyes.

1220
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well it's beautiful, isn't it? Like it's just so much.

1221
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 3: The beautiful thing is this is out there. This isn't fictional.

1222
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 3: I'm not.

1223
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 4: I get to do this every day with teens that

1224
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:34,439
Speaker 4: have been labeled since since kinder and preschool that they're

1225
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 4: bad kids, and I meet them as teenagers and often

1226
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 4: as a kid. I see recently he's seventeen, he walks

1227
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 4: around school and he's like, I'm like, how come you

1228
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 4: don't have any mates? And he's like, because all the

1229
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 4: girls want to be with me, and all the boys

1230
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 4: know that old bash him. He's seventeen. He's had such

1231
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 4: severe trauma that he's still a toddler socially and emotionally.

1232
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 4: And so if I treat him like an adult and say, mate,

1233
00:58:57,680 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 4: think about how the other people feel. I don't think

1234
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 4: that's true. You know, actually all the girls don't want

1235
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 4: to be with you, and all the boys aren't afraid

1236
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:03,720
Speaker 4: of you.

1237
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 3: He'll just dig in further. Whereas I actually connect with

1238
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 3: him and try and put.

1239
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 4: Better pro social behaviors in at the level of a toddler,

1240
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 4: just early superficial empathy, showing him that he has a

1241
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 4: strength in protecting others and connecting with them and guiding them,

1242
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 4: give him opportunities for leadership like that. Then he'll get

1243
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 4: to the part where those behaviors and beliefs don't exist

1244
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 4: him him anymore. And I don't do it by punishing him.

1245
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 1: And this is why experts like you exist, because I mean,

1246
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 1: what parent would know to do that?

1247
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, no one's ever showing.

1248
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 1: This is why finding help is so important, because you

1249
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: don't know what you don't know. You might want to

1250
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 1: help as much as you can, but you might not

1251
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 1: realize that what you're doing isn't actually helping totally.

1252
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 4: But I would also argue that the specialists and experts

1253
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 4: are not the most powerful in this space. It's the

1254
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 4: people that have relationships, you know, and it's the people

1255
00:59:56,360 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 4: with visibility. Like I said at the start, you directly

1256
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 4: influenced my trajectory as a teenager because I saw a

1257
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 4: male with long hair who was happy and successful and

1258
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 4: secure in himself, and I was able to be something

1259
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 4: different to what every other bit of mainstream culture was

1260
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 4: showing me.

1261
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 3: You know, like that's but that's important.

1262
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 4: You might feel uncomfortable about that compliment, but we actually

1263
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 4: need to start elevating those people.

1264
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 3: And that's how you get rid of Andrew Tate.

1265
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:24,959
Speaker 4: That's how you get rid of all that stuff because

1266
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 4: they see someone else and they go, oh, it's the

1267
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 4: same as pornography. Show them what genuine healthy intimacy looks like,

1268
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 4: you know, and then they will be so like jarring

1269
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 4: when they see when it's not like that that it

1270
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 4: will feel foreign and wrong to them, and that's you know,

1271
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 4: I have to work on that. I have to be

1272
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 4: more intimate to everyone I care about, Like I love

1273
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 4: my friendship. So men in my life, I love them,

1274
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 4: and I physically show them I love them.

1275
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 3: I tell them I love.

1276
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 4: Them, and so it's it's a really important thing that

1277
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 4: we actually get better at complimenting each other and showing

1278
01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 4: those sensitivities in a strengths based approach.

1279
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 2: I'm very grateful that you said that.

1280
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 1: I'm very grateful that I got to play a part

1281
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 1: in the you know, the life you have, and it

1282
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: meant a lot to me that you said that I

1283
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:12,440
Speaker 1: would like personally like I would like to bring back

1284
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 1: benevolence as this that's what masculinity looks like. That's what

1285
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 1: strength looks like. It takes strength and benevolence. And you know,

1286
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 1: you can be like, you can have muscle and you

1287
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 1: can show that. If bush does come to shove, then

1288
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 1: it's going to be a different thing. But it takes

1289
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 1: strength and power and grit to have someone shouting at

1290
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 1: you and not respond at that energy and to take

1291
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 1: it on and to try to understand and to try

1292
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 1: to solve something that is hard I'd like to see

1293
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 1: more men doing that in leadership roles, but that doesn't

1294
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 1: win your elections, unfortunately, mate, I couldn't be more grateful

1295
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 1: that you made time to do this with us today.

1296
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 1: The work you're doing is really important. And yeah, thank

1297
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 1: you for making the time to speak to us. I've

1298
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 1: really really stoked we've got a chance to do it.

1299
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Billy.

1300
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 3: Thanks, I really really appreciate the chance.

1301
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:11,920
Speaker 2: That was.

1302
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 1: Doctor Billy Garvey his book, his excellent book he has

1303
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:17,040
Speaker 1: called ten Things I Wish you Knew about your Child's

1304
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 1: mental health.

1305
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 2: It's out right now.

1306
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 1: He's also the host of a podcast called Pop Culture Parenting,

1307
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 1: which you can find where you found this very podcast.

1308
01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 1: Billy's great and you heard him say it a couple

1309
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 1: of times. It was uncomfortable taking his compliments. I'm gonna

1310
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 1: have to have a bit more of a think about

1311
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 1: that because it's all very fresh. I might have to

1312
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:37,920
Speaker 1: reflect on why. But it was lovely. It was very

1313
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 1: nice to hear what he had to say. He's an

1314
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 1: amazing guy, and I urge you to explore his work

1315
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:45,520
Speaker 1: because there are many many voices about how you can

1316
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 1: be a better parent. But as the saying, guys, no

1317
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 1: two kids have the same set of parents. That includes

1318
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 1: kids who are siblings. But you know, similarly, no parenting

1319
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 1: book has the right advice for every freaking kid. However,

1320
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 1: the stuff that Billy talks about is so backed in research.

1321
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 1: The way he talks about the principles that they're trying

1322
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:07,360
Speaker 1: to achieve, you can reverse engineer that and find your

1323
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 1: own way to doing that with your kids, no matter

1324
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 1: how different they are or your parents. This stuff works

1325
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 1: the other way around. Like I told you, a man,

1326
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 1: all leadership is parenting. Doctor Billy Garvey is amazing. Thank

1327
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 1: you for being a part of the show. There's a

1328
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:22,600
Speaker 1: link in the show notes to get on the substack,

1329
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 1: which is where you can get discount secrets to the

1330
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 1: next Comedy Store show, which is the next edition of

1331
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 1: story Club. I will be announcing the cast next week,

1332
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,240
Speaker 1: but if you get on the substack, you'll find yourself.

1333
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 2: A discount Jube two cards. Get among it.

1334
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 1: Thanks Adam Bunch for producing this episode. I'll see you Monday.