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Speaker 1: Get a team. Hope you bloody terrific. Welcome to another

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Speaker 1: installment the show. Tiffany and Cook the boss, she who

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Speaker 1: wears the pants, the big dog. I better say a

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Speaker 1: loight to her first, because she's got a lot of issues.

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Speaker 1: She gets a bit cranky if I don't acknowledge her upfront.

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Speaker 1: Get av boss or just bossy?

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Speaker 2: That's the question.

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Speaker 1: Well, Melissa's bossy. You both are quite bossy. But I

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Speaker 1: like that because I'm quite inept. So I need two

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Speaker 1: good women just steering the SSU project out of murky

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Speaker 1: waters and into the clarity, the light, out of the

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Speaker 1: darkness at Tiffen, into the light of revelation and inspiration.

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Speaker 1: How are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm good? Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Happy Friday, Happy Friday, Happy Friday. How's you? Just before

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Speaker 1: we go to our actual guest, who is more important

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Speaker 1: than both of us, is very self indulgent Corey. I apologize,

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Speaker 1: but as I said to you before, we don't have

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Speaker 1: a set protocol. How's your dodgy body? Are you better?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I'm back to some movement. Still a little bit cranky

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Speaker 2: in the old back region, but able to work around

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Speaker 2: it now. And you know what it's like when you

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Speaker 2: have a little bit of time off and then you

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Speaker 2: hit the gym very sore in all of the places.

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Speaker 1: Good sort so thorassical, lumba lumber. Yeah, okay, And did

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Speaker 1: you blow your medical team because you've got to got

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Speaker 1: a whole team. You've got a whole team. By the way, Cory,

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Speaker 1: we're very sweary. This may or may not suit. What's

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Speaker 1: the consensus of your medical team.

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Speaker 2: Ah, just got to be patient, calm down and do

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Speaker 2: all the things that I don't like.

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Speaker 3: Like.

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Speaker 2: Clams, clams, doing your clams. Of course I'm not doing

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Speaker 2: my clams, Christian. I've done the clam since you told

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Speaker 2: me to do my clams years ago. Hate clams. Did

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Speaker 2: box jumps instead. Now now, just put me back together.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's good that you pay these people to tell

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Speaker 1: you what to do, and then you don't do what

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Speaker 1: they tell you to do. That's perhaps placebo.

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Speaker 2: My body puts itself back together just because I turn

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Speaker 2: up to the appointment and have a chat.

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Speaker 3: Oh in that m.

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Speaker 1: Wow, Corey, how's your back? I think we should start there.

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Speaker 3: If I had a rate it out of ten, it's

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Speaker 3: probably only around seven and a half. I reckon. I

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Speaker 3: started off Actually my first my first started as a

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Speaker 3: piano player, as a musician, and it's terrible for your

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Speaker 3: back and always in the same position and practicing hours

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Speaker 3: a day.

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Speaker 1: And really happened. Tell did you have to say that?

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Speaker 2: All right?

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Speaker 3: Done?

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Speaker 1: Tell Corey what you've done. Tell Corey about your piano revelation.

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Speaker 2: I bought I had an epiphany and bought a piano

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Speaker 2: about five weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: So that might be why my backs.

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Speaker 2: It is really uncomfortable sitting at the piano. That does

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Speaker 2: really aggravate it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and so it's relevant. But lessons on technique

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Speaker 3: and make all the difference. And that's where I pulled

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Speaker 3: it back together. I moved to Canada and went to

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Speaker 3: UNI over there and did a performance degree and they

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Speaker 3: really hammered the technique. Can have to see it and

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Speaker 3: it made a big difference. But there's still long term

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Speaker 3: issues from that. And then you know, as you would

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Speaker 3: know PhD, you spend all your time reading and staring

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Speaker 3: at a screen. So yeah, at seven and a half

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Speaker 3: out of ten for my back is a good d Wow. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: My phone, my iPhone told me in late September, Corey

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Speaker 1: essentially that I was fat and lazy and unhealthy and

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Speaker 1: that you know how your phone tracks your steps? My

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Speaker 1: phone said essentially, you need to walk a lot more.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, wow, now I'm being told off by

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Speaker 1: Tiff and Melissa and my phone. And so I complied,

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Speaker 1: and the next day I tripled my steps and that's

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Speaker 1: been so I set myself a base of ten thousand

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Speaker 1: a day, like that's the lowest I can do, and

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Speaker 1: I've done more more than ten every day since then.

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Speaker 1: But it is do you know what someone should? And

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Speaker 1: then we'll get onto the actual conversation with the genius

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Speaker 1: that we've got on to talk about. The thing is

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Speaker 1: actually a genius about. But imagine you two, if somebody

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Speaker 1: designed I'm just picturing, like, you know, those super comfy

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Speaker 1: recliners where you're kind of almost on a forty five

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Speaker 1: degree and you have your keyboard just in front of

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Speaker 1: you tip like, so you're in like first class or

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Speaker 1: business but you've got a keyboard, right, so you're not

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Speaker 1: sitting your ass on your bony ass on a hard

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Speaker 1: chair and trying to keep your posture. Imagine that if

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Speaker 1: you didn't have to, that'd be super comfy, probably completely impractical.

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Speaker 2: Probably not any better for your back though, aren't fitball.

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Speaker 2: Sitting on big football supposed to be good for your back.

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Speaker 1: They are.

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Speaker 2: Maybe if I put this standing desk in standing mode

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Speaker 2: it would be better too.

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Speaker 1: I'm the same as you. I've got a fifty million

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Speaker 1: dollar standing desk that remains seated. So that was a

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Speaker 1: great investment. Oh yeah, it's got two motors.

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Speaker 3: It does this.

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Speaker 1: It's magic. It's the Rolls Royce of bloody stand up tables.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, shit, get me one of those of you

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Speaker 1: stood up fucking three times. It's not the table that's

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Speaker 1: the problem. I'll give you the tip.

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Speaker 3: Corey.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the project. How are you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm good. Things. Yeah, yeah, things.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for you know, unknowingly agreeing to

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Speaker 1: participate in the rabble that is.

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Speaker 3: I like rebel. So that's okay, very comfortable.

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Speaker 1: Well, Tiff, actually we're talking about doctorates before she's got

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Speaker 1: a PhD in rebel. Yeah, all right, tell my audience

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Speaker 1: who you are. Just rather me bang on through your

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Speaker 1: bio and bits and pieces and probably stuff it up

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Speaker 1: and be clunky, tell us who you are and what

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Speaker 1: you do, and a bit about your research and where

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Speaker 1: you're at.

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Speaker 3: So I have just admitted I'm almost waiting to hear

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Speaker 3: back from a PhD that's looking into meditation effects on anxiety.

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Speaker 3: But what we're really interested in is not is why

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Speaker 3: it works, you know, not there's a lot of research

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Speaker 3: that says, oh, you train people in this, that and

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Speaker 3: the other, and you see the effects. You know, people

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Speaker 3: get better at this, that and the other. But there's

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Speaker 3: very little work on why that, why it works. And

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Speaker 3: so that's the gap that I chose, And the reason

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Speaker 3: I chose it is because I had lived nearly six

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Speaker 3: years up in the Northern Indian Himalayan region where I

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Speaker 3: learned to speak, read, write Tibetan. So I studied Buddhist

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Speaker 3: philosophy and meditation practice in Tibetan for along quite a

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Speaker 3: few years living there, and then work as a translator,

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Speaker 3: you know, from Tibetan to English when I came back.

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Speaker 3: So Buddhism actually has quite a lot to say. In fact,

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Speaker 3: it's Buddhism's all about mechanisms, you know, it's like, how

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Speaker 3: does this work? And how can we amplify it or

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Speaker 3: dial it down or get rid of it all together.

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Speaker 3: So when I saw that it was a kind of

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Speaker 3: gap in the in the literature, I thought oh, maybe

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Speaker 3: there's some ways we could talk about some sort of

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Speaker 3: we'd call them contemplative ideas about why it works, but

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Speaker 3: we could talk about in psych terminology. So I can

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Speaker 3: basically pitch kind of Buddhist psychology at a clinical psyche

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Speaker 3: and just have them nod their head and say, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know that makes sense. So in a nutshell, that's

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Speaker 3: kind of what we've done, and you know, on the

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Speaker 3: back of some other brilliant work actually to get here.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, if I had sum it up as quick

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Speaker 3: as possible, that's about it.

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Speaker 1: And what led you to what led you to that

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Speaker 1: kind of path in terms of, you know, the intersection

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Speaker 1: of a spiritual or a philosophical practice and you know science,

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Speaker 1: it's like it's an interesting junction.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's pretty it's pretty bological when you

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Speaker 3: when you look at it.

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Speaker 1: Sure I can.

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Speaker 3: I can trace it back almost to a moment in

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Speaker 3: April I forget nineties something late nineties. I moved to Canada.

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Speaker 3: I moved to Toronto from Brisbane here. So I'd been

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Speaker 3: at the con at Brisbane in that had a little

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Speaker 3: fledgling jazz performance program. I had been accepted and studied,

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Speaker 3: and I wanted to study more so I moved to

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Speaker 3: Canada because I have a Canadian passport too. So I

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Speaker 3: moved to Toronto and when I got there, I should

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Speaker 3: when there was a day when I got there and

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Speaker 3: I was sitting on a park bench in a place

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Speaker 3: called Queen's Park and it was cold, you know, like

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Speaker 3: it's April steel and I had all the like physiology,

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Speaker 3: if you want, all the symptoms of what we would

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Speaker 3: call anxiety, you know, And it was really relevant to

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Speaker 3: me because actually that's one of the reasons I left.

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Speaker 3: I had really kind of fallen apart in Brisbane young,

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Speaker 3: you know, and things hadn't gone my way, and I'd

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Speaker 3: got all strung out and had some anxiety and depression.

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Speaker 3: Rather than deal with it, I moved to the other

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Speaker 3: side of the world, which to a city where I

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Speaker 3: knew nobody, which it should be said, is not the

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Speaker 3: ideal kind of treatments.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like anxiety is probably not a geographical issue, but.

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Speaker 3: Go on anyways, But so I got But the thing

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Speaker 3: that really that really got me interested is that although

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Speaker 3: I had all this you know, you'd call it kind

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Speaker 3: of anxiety, I loved it was it was really enjoyable,

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Speaker 3: like it was excitement because I was in this big

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Speaker 3: city full of people I didn't know, Toronto and May

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Speaker 3: Poliser in the playoffs, you know, the hockey team was

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Speaker 3: in the playoffs. The city was everything was different and

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Speaker 3: new and exciting, and I was really into it. And

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Speaker 3: it got me thinking, you know, why is it that

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Speaker 3: a year or so ago, this kind of physical sensation

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Speaker 3: would keep me at home. It would make me worried

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Speaker 3: about you know, it's going out and seeing people. You know,

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Speaker 3: every time I went out to be like, shit, am

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Speaker 3: I am I saying the right thing? Am I do?

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Speaker 3: I look like a dumbass? What's going like? All these

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Speaker 3: kinds of things. And now I've got the same thing,

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Speaker 3: and it's actually going to propel me up off the

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Speaker 3: bench into town to learn stuff, to meet people, you know,

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Speaker 3: like and it was about the interpretation of it. So

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Speaker 3: I got really I got really interested. Then I went on.

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Speaker 3: I did a music degree while I was there, I

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Speaker 3: met great people. I was there about eight years, and

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Speaker 3: it kind of happened again a bit later, like the

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Speaker 3: anxiety thing showed up again later, and I had this

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Speaker 3: sense that meditating might help. And this is true. There

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Speaker 3: was a Buddhist Tibetan Buddhist center across the road from

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Speaker 3: my favorite pub right down right around the corner from

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Speaker 3: where I lived. I spent a lot of time there,

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Speaker 3: and so one day at the part or the book

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Speaker 3: at the pub right yeah, you know, when I got there,

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Speaker 3: this pub had sixteen beers on tap, you know, and

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Speaker 3: I didn't know any of them. So it's cool, like

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Speaker 3: you just start at one end and like figure out

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Speaker 3: which if anyway that is a relevant call it research. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: this is my first research part.

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Speaker 1: That was what I was up. Yeah, No, it's nice.

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Speaker 3: I like it anyway. I sort of I got in

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Speaker 3: touch with them because I was getting this stress thing

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Speaker 3: happening again. I recognized it, you know. And then when

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Speaker 3: I started learning about what they were saying, and I

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Speaker 3: was like, oh, you've really there's no surprise to anyone

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Speaker 3: who understands Buddhist psychology. It's no surprise. It's like I

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Speaker 3: was feeling nervous here and it was a problem, and

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Speaker 3: I was feeling nervous here, and it was okay, there's

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Speaker 3: no surprise to them. They know they can explain that,

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Speaker 3: you know, yes, And so I was so fascinated by

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Speaker 3: it that I sold everything and moved to India basically,

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Speaker 3: and when I got there, a bunch of things happened,

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Speaker 3: and I had every time you go to these classes

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Speaker 3: or teaching or interviews, there's always this translator, you know,

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Speaker 3: And I started wondering, why why don't just learn? I

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Speaker 3: want to speak to them directly. There's really impressive, interesting people,

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Speaker 3: you know, they work to me. So I put time aside,

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Speaker 3: and I learned to speak the language, and then that

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Speaker 3: just opens all sorts of doors, you know, for extra

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Speaker 3: study and extra learning.

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Speaker 1: Could I just ask quickly between Okay, I'm trying the

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Speaker 1: sixteen Beers, I'm a bit anxious. I go over the

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Speaker 1: road to the Buddhist Meditation Center. Bibitti, Bobby Burt, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to India. I mean, what else happened? I mean

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Speaker 1: there must have been some seismic.

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Speaker 3: Shift in you to do that, sure, and it was.

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Speaker 3: It's just I mean, there was a sort of eight

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Speaker 3: The first sixteen Beers was right at the beginning, so

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Speaker 3: it was there eight years. So I did come to

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Speaker 3: a conclusion quite quickly on my favorite beer, so that

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Speaker 3: we can put that aside, you know. No, well, I

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Speaker 3: just kept everything went great for me, you know, for

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Speaker 3: the most part, had a really good time, but then

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Speaker 3: things kind of didn't for a while. Some things didn't

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Speaker 3: go my way. I lost some where, some stuff happened,

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Speaker 3: you know, but I felt all that anxiety depression thing

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Speaker 3: happening again, and I thought I was through it, you know,

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Speaker 3: I said, no, no, I've dealt with this once before

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Speaker 3: and I was okay. And so when that started to happen,

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Speaker 3: I took a really interest in it, you know. So, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was more of this. If I had to, I'd

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Speaker 3: say it was a sense that I felt as if

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Speaker 3: I immunized myself against this kind of anxiety, you know,

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Speaker 3: by having been through it before. And I had as

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Speaker 3: holl as things are going my way, you know, and

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Speaker 3: then as soon as they weren't and there was some difficulty,

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Speaker 3: I just started coming up again, which really freaked me out. Actually,

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Speaker 3: I said, no, no, I'm not going back here. What

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Speaker 3: can I do? And I looked around. I was out

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Speaker 3: at the Zen Center. I looked into some psych things,

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Speaker 3: I looked into other new agy stuff, but this Tibetan

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Speaker 3: system would just answer all the questions. So I went

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Speaker 3: to this center for quite a few months and months,

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Speaker 3: and then eventually I just thought, you know, it's the

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Speaker 3: same reason I went to Toronto is my favorite pianist

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Speaker 3: lived in Toronto. So I picked up and I left

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Speaker 3: Brisbane and I went to Toronto. And then I was

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Speaker 3: there for a while and I got interested in this

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Speaker 3: in the mind and how it works. And to me,

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Speaker 3: the people who had the most to say about that

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Speaker 3: were in India. So I just got sold what I

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Speaker 3: had and I moved to India. To me, it was

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Speaker 3: the same, you know, and it was I never looked back.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I still kind of half wish I lived there,

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Speaker 3: if I'm honest.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the corey, what are some of

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Speaker 1: the or what is some of the divergence between you know,

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Speaker 1: Buddhist psychology and Western psychology for one of a better term.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, there's a lot you can say about that.

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Speaker 3: I'm less I'm more interested in the overlap.

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Speaker 1: So ok, yeah, do that. Let's go there then, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you can.

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Speaker 3: You know, in a couple of years ago, I was

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Speaker 3: in India and Bodgaya. I had just gone back for

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Speaker 3: a visit and I just had a coffee and there's

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Speaker 3: actually there's not a lot of good coffee anyway. I

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Speaker 3: was there, I just had a coffee and these two

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Speaker 3: months sat down at a table just across and I

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Speaker 3: could tell. I could tell there were what we call

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Speaker 3: it GeSHi, and GeSHi does a twenty year full time

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Speaker 3: study program, this degree twenty years full time and sort

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Speaker 3: the high end scholars. And I could tell that they

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Speaker 3: were just from you can tell. Anyway, I said a

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Speaker 3: quick hello to them and made some comment about the

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Speaker 3: breakfast and was going to leave, and anyway, they called

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Speaker 3: me in because when you speak Tibetan, they really get

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Speaker 3: interested in you. You know, there's not manywhere and I

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Speaker 3: was there for like two hours with them going on

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Speaker 3: and on, and this was their question, is like, hey,

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Speaker 3: we know about science and Buddhism and there's like this

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Speaker 3: contemplative science and there's all this interaction back and forth.

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Speaker 3: You know, what are the ways you think it can

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Speaker 3: really help? You know, we're curious, we teach Westerners sometimes,

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Speaker 3: you know, what, how can I help? And my my

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Speaker 3: sort of I had a few coffee amped up by then,

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Speaker 3: but it was we say, just stop talking about the mind,

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Speaker 3: right because Buddhism it's all about the mind, and same

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Speaker 3: in neuroscience. And you've got this perhaps it's your view.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. There's a there is a view within

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Speaker 3: in scientific materialism that the mind is derivative of brain,

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Speaker 3: you know, and all this stuff which you can never reconcile. This,

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Speaker 3: there's there's a completely pointless talking about it. If that's

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Speaker 3: the case, Buddhism is wrong, like all of Buddhism is

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Speaker 3: finished if that's the case. And if it's not the case,

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Speaker 3: then there's some neuroscientist who get to lose their careers,

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Speaker 3: you know. So it's sort of like there's like, stop

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Speaker 3: talking about it, because there's every because we can talk

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Speaker 3: about what the mind does, activities of the mind, mental activity, this,

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Speaker 3: talk about this all day long, right, and and then

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Speaker 3: of course the question what causes happiness, what causes suffering?

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Speaker 3: What causes this? That and the other? All these things

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Speaker 3: pop up. So actually, yeah, it's I mean, it's a

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Speaker 3: long way of saying that it isn't it's a fun

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Speaker 3: little debate topic if you like. But actually there's so

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Speaker 3: much scope where they cross over that that's where my

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Speaker 3: sort of interest lies. For Marimez. Everything I spent that

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Speaker 3: time learning when I was in India and back here translating,

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Speaker 3: and then of course a psych degree and a PhD

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Speaker 3: and so on. That's you know, there's all this stuff

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Speaker 3: to talk about that could be immediately useful for people,

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Speaker 3: you know, if it just made its way through into

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Speaker 3: the kind of you know, general pub conversations.

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Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, is it hard to get what? We're

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Speaker 1: in Australia and we're three of us were buzzis? So

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Speaker 1: is it hard to get Australians to open up to

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Speaker 1: stuff that, for want of a better term, doesn't make sense?

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Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? I mean, I know

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Speaker 1: it makes all the sense, but it's like I'm a

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Speaker 1: little well, Tiff and I have spoken about this many times.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of things that I believe in one

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Speaker 1: of a better term, that I don't have any evidence for,

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Speaker 1: like in terms of data. It's like well, Craig, well,

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Speaker 1: I can't you know, And it's like literally, well, I

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Speaker 1: mean belief and faith, Like often it's about in something

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Speaker 1: that you don't have absolute evidence or absolute knowledge or

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Speaker 1: absolute proof ergo belief in faith versus data and evidence.

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Speaker 3: You know, yeah, absolutely, And to me, like a true

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Speaker 3: scientist will will you can have a belief you think?

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Speaker 3: I think it's like this, I'm even going to live

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Speaker 3: my life based on my belief it's like this, but

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Speaker 3: but it might not be correctly and then you're good

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Speaker 3: to go. I think, right, And I.

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Speaker 1: Think one of the challenges is, sorry, I just cut

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Speaker 1: you off. But like so many people corey have there,

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Speaker 1: whatever their philosophy, their ideology, they're fill in the blank,

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Speaker 1: intertwined with their identity and so then you're unteachable because

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Speaker 1: it and I are the same. So you can't teach

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Speaker 1: me anything because if, for example, in this case, I'm wrong,

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Speaker 1: then I don't know who I am. So you and

365
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Speaker 1: your wisdom can fuck off.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. Yeah, And which is interesting is like one

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Speaker 3: of the fundamental issues in Buddhism is is how do

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Speaker 3: I identify myself and when I Because if I identify

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Speaker 3: myself as a neuroscientist, you'd know if everything's in relation

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Speaker 3: to me, everything's in interpretation or neurologically, it's a prediction,

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Speaker 3: you know, And so that means my whole experience is

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Speaker 3: around me. So if I am mistaken about how I

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Speaker 3: exist and who I am, I'm essentially mistaken about everything else. Yes,

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Speaker 3: it's kind of okay because you might we might all

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Speaker 3: be mistaken in the same ways, so we can still

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Speaker 3: talk about things right, but but fundamentally there's still this

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Speaker 3: issue that's it's a little bit it's hard to ignore

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Speaker 3: for some of us. It's a bit like the lose tooth,

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Speaker 3: you know, And yeah, that's the that's the exact issue.

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Speaker 3: As long as I really think I'm here and if

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Speaker 3: you shoot my ideas down it damages me, then I'm

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Speaker 3: going to fight back. Whereas if it's like, hey, you know,

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Speaker 3: you might have some some some things to say that's

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Speaker 3: going to help me deal with my own shit. And

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Speaker 3: so even though you know, I might actually be able

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Speaker 3: to use that. And that was what I found with

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Speaker 3: the Tibetans, which is why I got so hawked, is

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Speaker 3: because if they like the questioning, you know, if you

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Speaker 3: come in at them and say no, I don't accept this,

390
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Speaker 3: then they want they want the debate. That's really of course,

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Speaker 3: they always win the debate because that they twenty years

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Speaker 3: of study. So it's kind of a loaded game in

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Speaker 3: a way. But I like that. But I always like that.

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Speaker 3: And sometimes they would tell stuff and you come back

395
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Speaker 3: a little bit later and go, no, I've thought about

396
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Speaker 3: it and I don't think it's quite right, and they

397
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Speaker 3: will say, yeah, you're right, it's not you know, it's

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Speaker 3: a bit and they just lead you through these more

399
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Speaker 3: subtle understandings. They go, yeah, it's not quite like that. Really,

400
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Speaker 3: it's a bit more like this, and then you keep

401
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Speaker 3: coming at them and they always have this judo move,

402
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Speaker 3: you know, but they're working to you, and as the

403
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Speaker 3: better you are, as you said, of like not conflating

404
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Speaker 3: my beliefs and ideas with me, then the more you

405
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Speaker 3: can get out of it. And it's really it's a

406
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Speaker 3: really fun system to work in if you're just curious.

407
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Speaker 3: It's a terrible place to be if you really solidly believe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I think also, you know, most of

409
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Speaker 1: us have something of an attachment to certainty and predictability

410
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Speaker 1: and familiarity and knowing. We don't like saying I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what's coming. You know. It's like all

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Speaker 1: of that uncertainty, unfamiliarity, unknown as terrifying, and so we'd rather,

413
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Speaker 1: you know, tell ourselves a story, whatever the story is.

414
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Speaker 1: You know, I'm going to live in the echo chamber.

415
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Speaker 1: I'm only going to pay attention to people who think

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Speaker 1: like me, because people who don't think like me, one,

417
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Speaker 1: of course they're wrong. And two they make me feel

418
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Speaker 1: these things I don't want to feel. But I think

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Speaker 1: the real as you were saying before, like real science

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Speaker 1: is about going this is what I think. This is

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Speaker 1: my hypothesis theory. But I could be wrong, and not

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Speaker 1: only could I be wrong, I'm absolutely going to be

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Speaker 1: wrong moving forward, because I've been wrong one million times

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Speaker 1: up until now, so that ain't stopping.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my favorite kind of scientists,

426
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Speaker 3: if you like, in this like field, is Paul Eckman

427
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Speaker 3: did a lot of work on emotions and actually put

428
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Speaker 3: together a course that I teach quite a lot well,

429
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Speaker 3: I teach derivatives of or teach called cultivating Emotional Balance,

430
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Speaker 3: because your emotions is his his thing, and he did

431
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Speaker 3: a lot of work with it. Turns out with the

432
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 3: diala Lama like he went to a he went to

433
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 3: one of these mind and life meetings they're called So

434
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 3: these Tibetan scholars and practitioners get together with like top

435
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 3: of the field scientists Richie Davidson and these sorts of

436
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,880
Speaker 3: people you know, and they have these meetings and Paul

437
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 3: Eckman got invited. And the story, as I understand it,

438
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 3: is he didn't want to go because he didn't care.

439
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 3: But he's had a daughter who would love to meet

440
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 3: the Dalai Lama, so it's the only reason he went.

441
00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,199
Speaker 3: But it was a complete it was life changing for him,

442
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:36,920
Speaker 3: like the whole and it changed a lot of what

443
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 3: he was doing. But he would say, like, despite this

444
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 3: super close relationship, you know, with the Dalai Lama and

445
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 3: these things, I've written books together. And so he would

446
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 3: people ask him about things like, you know, continuity of consciousness,

447
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 3: you know, so like you know, rebirth, you know, past

448
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 3: future lives, and he'd say, I don't believe it, but

449
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 3: I'm a scientist, and no one's proven it, disproven it.

450
00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it was a.

451
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 3: Great that's a great example, like eminent Time magazine one

452
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 3: hundred most Important People of this century sort of thing.

453
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 3: And he's saying, yeah, I don't believe it, but I'm

454
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 3: not gonna you know, it might be true because I

455
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 3: don't have the evidence against it, but I'm going to

456
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 3: live my life over here.

457
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 1: You know.

458
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 3: I have a lot of respect for that. I really

459
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 3: like it.

460
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too, And I think I always think, like

461
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: whatever I listen to, whatever I see, experience, whatever you think,

462
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 1: whatever Tiff thinks, whatever anyone I'm in conversation, thinks whatever

463
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 1: evidence gets brought up or apparent evidence, I'm always looking

464
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 1: at that through the Craig window, the Craig filter, Like

465
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: everything is filtered by what I think is and that's

466
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 1: just my version of the truth or my version of

467
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: reality or my version, you know. And it's like having

468
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 1: for me, that's like opening the consciousness door or the

469
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: awareness s door a bit where you go, no, there's true,

470
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: there's absolute truth maybe, but then there's my truth, or

471
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 1: there's my there's the thing that's happening, and then there's

472
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: my story about the thing that's happening. And I should

473
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: not conflate those two things, and I need to go

474
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 1: this is how I see it. But I could be wrong,

475
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 1: and even you know, now there's three of us in

476
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: a conversation, but no one's having the same experience. The

477
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: thousands of people will listen to this, and none of

478
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: them probably will have the exact same interaction with this

479
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: stimulus or response to this, or experience of this, because

480
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: despite the commonality everyone's listening to the same audio, everyone

481
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: creates their own experience around that one thing.

482
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's we often one of the interpret you know,

483
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 3: ways I've interpreted some of this actually from when you're

484
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 3: translating this. You know, we talk about what's presented to

485
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 3: our senses and then how we interpret that, and there's

486
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 3: sort of two there's two things going on. There's what's

487
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 3: presented and how we interpret it. But our one hundred

488
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 3: percent of our reality is the interpretee at no point

489
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 3: do wherever access the objects out there directly, And so

490
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 3: this is it's not controversial, is it. But then you

491
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 3: would start applying this to mental mental activity. So in

492
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 3: this there's a term in Tibetan now bombo, and we

493
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 3: translate it as sense usually because it's you know, here

494
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 3: see smell, see here, smell, taste, touch, and these five senses,

495
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 3: but in Buddhism there's six because there's a mental domain

496
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 3: and all they're all sort of you know, you talk

497
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,199
Speaker 3: about things you see here, smell, taste, touched, think, remember,

498
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 3: and so on and so that so this idea that

499
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 3: it's only your interpretation of what's presented to your senses

500
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 3: includes the mental domain. And this is gets really interesting,

501
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 3: you know, because that's what you think about and this

502
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 3: is what my actually, So this is the that mechanism

503
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 3: that does that is what I tried to use in

504
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 3: my PhD as to why does why is it that

505
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 3: meditation training can dial down rumination and metacognitive beliefs and

506
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 3: all these other things, you know why? And that's what

507
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 3: we're looking at. The mechanism that takes what's presented in

508
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 3: the mental domain and interprets it as being real. This

509
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 3: is the issue, right And if you can sort of

510
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 3: not interpret it as being it's let's say, if I

511
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 3: can if I treat my opinions as facts sort of

512
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 3: like you were saying before, you know, my beliefs or

513
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 3: my beliefs as facts, then it gets really problematic when

514
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 3: I meet someone else with different beliefs because they have

515
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 3: different they have alternative facts, and which is always problematic.

516
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 3: So yeah, there's this, but there is a sense there

517
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 3: is an area in which my interpretation overlaps with yours.

518
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 3: And in Buddhism we just call this conventional reality because

519
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 3: it is a Convention's like this is a table. Your

520
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 3: your table is a standing table, you know, like, you know,

521
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 3: we can all agree even though our interpretations are different,

522
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 3: you know, then so that's cool. Then, but then there

523
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 3: are plots we disagree, and that's problematic. For us.

524
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: I'm just writing on my notepad in front of me. Corey.

525
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 1: Don't believe everything you think exactly like, it's that right,

526
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: and we don't. Yeah, like when we it's like you said,

527
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: you know, when we believe something, we un'tequivocally believe it.

528
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: Then that becomes or can become, a literal physiological experience

529
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 1: based on sometimes based on an erroneous belief or thought,

530
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: like I think, And I apologize to my listeners who

531
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: have heard a version of this example. But you know,

532
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 1: I'm in the house by myself right now, but all

533
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I think or I believe someone's in

534
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: the house, and now I'm in danger, when the truth

535
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 1: is no one's in the house. The truth is I'm safe.

536
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: That's the truth. But my belief is in the moment,

537
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: and so my nervous system and you know, in the

538
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: crime system and cardiovascual system, everything buys into that idea.

539
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 1: And now my physiology has changed necessarily because I believe

540
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: a thing that's not true.

541
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know if we take we can take

542
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: this a little further if you like this, Yeah, God

543
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 3: please in my area. Actually, so let's say in fact,

544
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 3: so you have a if you're taking these beliefs as

545
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 3: being real. Let's say I have a let's just let's

546
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 3: a happy memory, right, Like, let's say I have some

547
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: happy memory from the past, you know. So if I

548
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 3: remember that, like I call that memory up, I cannot

549
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 3: it can like trigger an enjoyable emotional experience, right, Yes,

550
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's interesting though because the event, right has passed,

551
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 3: So the event doesn't exist, right, it happened, it's finished,

552
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 3: but there's a mental representation of that event. Yeah. And

553
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 3: what this is called ratification in psychology, you know, as

554
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 3: a newish way of thinking that if I the degree

555
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 3: to it which I treat the mental representation the memory

556
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 3: as the event is the power with which it has

557
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 3: to elicit emotional reaction. Yes, so I can actually believe

558
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 3: if you have one hundred percent rarefication. So our next

559
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 3: project we're putting together is in PTSD because this is

560
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 3: where it sort of makes sense. It could act like

561
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 3: one hundred percent raification of a memory could alter my

562
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 3: perception to the point I believe I'm in that situation. Again,

563
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 3: of course, we know with traumatic stress this is the case.

564
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 3: So I'm trying to use a happy example, you know,

565
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 3: And so one of the core elements perhaps of these

566
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 3: sort of flashbacks or of disturbing rumination, disturbing mind wandering, worry.

567
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 3: These are my three elements that I worked on. Actually,

568
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 3: the rarefication of the mental activity, so the belief that

569
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 3: it's really happening to me now, which is only a

570
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 3: small step from what you were just presenting. The I

571
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 3: think there's someone in the house, I get worried. Actually

572
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 3: I could just think that there's you know that I

573
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 3: could just think that this memory is real, doesn't It's

574
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 3: a little bit and it's enough to set off some

575
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 3: kind of reaction. Uh. It's called a metacognitive theory. There's

576
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 3: a it's a brilliant piece of work from Adrian Wells

577
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 3: called he calls it a self regulatory executive function model,

578
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 3: and basically it works trying to so trying to dial

579
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 3: down people's beliefs about their own thinking. Yeah, and it's

580
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 3: so fascinating, so that there are if people, for example,

581
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 3: there are five domains, but the three that we're interested in.

582
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 3: People believe that worry is helpful. So you think, oh,

583
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 3: if I cover my bases, you know, by worrying about stuff.

584
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 3: They believe that their thoughts are uncontrollable and dangerous, and

585
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 3: they believe they have to control their thoughts. If you

586
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: ever tried to control your thoughts, you will know. And

587
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 3: so anyone high in those beliefs will set off chains

588
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 3: of worry and rumination which will lead to anxiety, depression,

589
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 3: and others. And so it's a brilliant model. I love it,

590
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 3: and I use that to suggest, you know what, it's

591
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 3: not even the metacognitive The actual beliefs are only problematic

592
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 3: if you ratify them. Yeah, so an actual fact the ratification.

593
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 3: And it turns out that for two and a half

594
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 3: thousand years Buddhism has been refining and developing technology to

595
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 3: undermine ratification. So that's what we did, is we use

596
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 3: traditional Indo Tibetan Buddhist practice and understanding and train people

597
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 3: in that to see the flow on effects.

598
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: Wow, that is so super interesting. So in what like

599
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: in general terms in psych when we talk about you know,

600
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: thinking about thinking, we open that metacognitive door. Right, Yeah,

601
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: is there is there an equivalent word or term or

602
00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: process in you know, Tibetan and Buddhists psychology.

603
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 3: Or what an awesome question? Yeah?

604
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: Almost in.

605
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 3: It gets hard because they think about things differently. In

606
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 3: Buddhist psychology, certainly our tradition, they differentiate perception and conception,

607
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 3: and perception is like this unmediated apprehension of something. But

608
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 3: conception is exactly this conception is taking a mental representation

609
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 3: and treating it as the reference. We call it the

610
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 3: thing it refers to you know. So yeah, there is

611
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 3: actually conceptual So then when in Buddhism they start to

612
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 3: talk about nonconceptual states and these sorts of things, that's

613
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 3: what they're talking about is meditation practices that reduce the

614
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 3: amount of that interpretation. There's always some interpretation, but it

615
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 3: reduces your belief in the interpretation, but it actually dials

616
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 3: down the bandwidth of the interpretation itself. So as things

617
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 3: are presented to my senses and especially mental domein right

618
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 3: as they're presented that I don't it doesn't have this

619
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 3: capacity to cause all these kind of reactions whether they

620
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: be emotional or physical or verbal or whatever. Wow. So

621
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 3: the answer is yes, conception just conceptual activities.

622
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you a little bit about

623
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: beliefs and like we've touched on them, but and this

624
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: is not my area of expertise. This is just what

625
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: I think. This is my observation. But it seems to

626
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: me like most of us have beliefs that we didn't choose.

627
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: We just got them through, almost like sociological osmosis, you know,

628
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: being around others who had that belief Mum believes this,

629
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: Dad believes that, and now I'm twenty and also Grandma

630
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: believes it. So I definitely believe that, And I never

631
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: chose it. I never really did a deep dive on it.

632
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: I never put it under the spotlight, had a good think.

633
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: It's just what I believe.

634
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 3: Now.

635
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: Is that more common than uncommon? I feel like that's

636
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: how most beliefs actually form.

637
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. And I think I'm a bit

638
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 3: worried about this current generation who may have just graduated

639
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 3: UNI where it's all gone online, because I think I

640
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 3: think traditionally that was the sort of workplaces and you know,

641
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 3: study and these were the places that you came across

642
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 3: the other ideas. So when I finished high school in

643
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 3: North Queensland and Cannes, and then I moved down to

644
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 3: go to the coln here in Brisbane, and I moved

645
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 3: with I lived with some people I went to high

646
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:37,879
Speaker 3: school with. You know, I'd known them for a few

647
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 3: years and holy shit, they were weird, you know, like

648
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 3: I didn't know I lived.

649
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: With them, right, And that was so interesting because it's

650
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: so funny.

651
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's where I because exactly what you were saying.

652
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 3: Like I thought my family was normal. But either your

653
00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 3: family is super unnormal abnormal or what mine is, or

654
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 3: there's no normal. I don't know, And so I think, Yeah,

655
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 3: those beliefs do come from there, but they're not set

656
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 3: in stone. And I mean, you know, even into your twenties,

657
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 3: of prefrontal cortex is still making connections that you can.

658
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 3: Still you have this flexibility in thinking that a that

659
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 3: you can and we should be using, you know, because

660
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 3: you do lose it allegedly. But yeah, of course they

661
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 3: just come, you go to and you see it at work.

662
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 3: So when let's say, in the monsoon in northern India,

663
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 3: in the Tibetan communities, all these worms I lived in

664
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 3: the out there's rice fields and so you know, and

665
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 3: there's all these worms everywhere, and the Tibetan kids as

666
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 3: they walk to school will take a broom and make

667
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 3: sure they brush all the worms off the pathway so

668
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 3: they don't step on them, because they believe there's an

669
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 3: issue with killing them, whereas there might be other cultures

670
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 3: who would happily just trample across them, you know, beliefs

671
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 3: inherited entirely from parent previous generations of course.

672
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and you don't grow up questioning.

673
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I grew up in a very religious house,

674
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: and so by the time I was ten, I had

675
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: all of these very ingrained, fundamental non negotiable This is

676
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: how it works. This is how life and death and

677
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 1: the after life worth work. And by the way, we know,

678
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: just so you all know, we know you don't know.

679
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: You think you know, but we actually know. You're welcome.

680
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: If you need to enlightened, let me know I can

681
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 1: enlighten you.

682
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And now it's kind of you know,

683
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 3: with the online world, it's kind of got a bit

684
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 3: more difficult because where you might have one extremist in

685
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 3: the in their mother's basement, you know, in the past,

686
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 3: in one sort of neighborhood, there was no support for them,

687
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 3: you know, like their views. But now on Lane they

688
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 3: might only the only thing they might get is support

689
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 3: for really wild, radical, even violent views. So yeah, this

690
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 3: it gets more and more important, I think to think

691
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 3: about the kind of the views and the skills we're

692
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 3: giving children as they come up, especially to those teenage

693
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 3: years because of that, because now it's very easy to

694
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 3: find an echo chamber, that's mean extreme echo chamber, not

695
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 3: like before, you know, the really intense and you don't

696
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 3: have to speak to anyone as Eber eats everything. Although

697
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 3: I don't know how you make money, so yeah, well.

698
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: You make money online?

699
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know.

700
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: Well me, it's only fans, you know, I just show

701
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: my feet, so you probably don't, do you know what

702
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 1: only fans are Corey, I hope it don't. No, it doesn't.

703
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: I don't tell him, look it up later.

704
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 3: I've made a note.

705
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: Tell me about if you're okay with it, just because

706
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: we talk about this quite a bit. We talk about

707
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:58,479
Speaker 1: mental health, depression, anxiety, you and mental health now these days,

708
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: now that you've been on the journey that you've been on,

709
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 1: how are you now?

710
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm well, I'm I'm good. I've had so I

711
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 3: first went to I first went to India in two

712
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 3: thousand and three. So I feel as if I've been

713
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 3: working this full time for more than twenty years. Yes, yeah,

714
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 3: I have. I mean so I'm very fortunate. I have

715
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 3: quite a good understanding how emotions and these things work

716
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 3: from a psych perspective, which is really helpful. And then

717
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 3: I have also ways to deal with stuff thanks to

718
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 3: the contemplative training, you know. So yeah, I of course

719
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 3: get stressed. I mean a PhD, you know, And of

720
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 3: course once you're stressed about the PhD, everything else is stressful,

721
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 3: you know. But of course I know how that works.

722
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 3: I know what a cognitive load is, and I also

723
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 3: have been and what results I should see. And I've

724
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 3: been trained in self reflective practice to try to make

725
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 3: sure I don't say and do dumb shit, right, because

726
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 3: I have so much such a long history of doing that.

727
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 3: So then yeah, no it works. So when I do

728
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 3: have those stresses, and you know, when I feel that

729
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 3: stuff rising, I have things I can do to counteract it.

730
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 3: I have released valves leaders I can pull that I

731
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 3: have been taught thanks to some very very kind and

732
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 3: awesome teachers of mine.

733
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: But I do.

734
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 3: The reason I say that is I rely on both.

735
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 3: I really do rely on stuff I learned from psychology

736
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: because I feel as if sometimes Buddhists and other people religious,

737
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 3: you know, kind of poo pooh. Psychology is if it's

738
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 3: as if it's useless or you know, but actually there's

739
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 3: all these amazing things that have been learned. They tend

740
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 3: to be short term fixes in my experience, Like a

741
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 3: psyche intervention isn't going to launch you into you know,

742
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 3: but but what it will do is get the obstacles

743
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 3: out of the way to start to deploy the sort

744
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 3: of contemplative weaponry. You know that you might have this

745
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 3: contemplative technology which is a much much more stable, high

746
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 3: end types of well being, and so of course to

747
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 3: get stressed, of course, to get emotional. But I feel

748
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 3: as if I have I have a really good tool set,

749
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 3: and as my contemplative training increases, I know to deploy,

750
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 3: I know, to sort of activate those things sooner and

751
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 3: sooner and sooner. And so for me, what I want

752
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 3: is the shortest possible gap between the stressor and getting

753
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 3: and activating some sort of response. You know, That's what

754
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 3: I'm That's what I'm looking for. So at the moment

755
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 3: something happens, I got it. I've got a whiteboard here

756
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 3: of things I have to do, you know, and if

757
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 3: I look at the whiteboard, stuff does to happen. But

758
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 3: I know what I want is from from noticing I

759
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 3: need I need the stress to happen. I need to

760
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 3: notice the stress is the first step, and I need

761
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 3: to do something about it. And I need to have

762
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 3: that happens as fast as possible with the higher highest

763
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 3: percentage I can. If that makes sense, it's as often

764
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 3: as possible, as quickly as possible. And if you think

765
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 3: about it like that, which is how I teach people

766
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 3: and know the people I work with, This is what

767
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,359
Speaker 3: we're we're doing. So you know, how are your percentages?

768
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 3: Man like? Have you you know over time over three weeks,

769
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 3: are you less reactive? And so, yeah, I would say

770
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 3: my mental health is good. It's not only that I

771
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 3: feel as if I'm the same way as you both know,

772
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 3: athletes and people can train to achieve higher levels of

773
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 3: physical health. The SAME's true of the mind. With the

774
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 3: right diet, the right training, you can achieve really high

775
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 3: levels of mental health. And that's my goal in life,

776
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 3: you know, is actually to push for those and maybe

777
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 3: help some people along the way if they can.

778
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: I feel this is just what I was thinking as

779
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: you were saying that and talking about you know, the

780
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 1: not good or bad, but kind of the difference is

781
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 1: between East and Western a little bit, and you know,

782
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 1: but a psychology and Western psychology for want a better term.

783
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: But I feel like in Australia we don't really do

784
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: a deep dive on the who am I, you know,

785
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: like understanding the self, like trying to figure out who

786
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: I am am separate to all the things I'm not.

787
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to sound like the dell a Lama

788
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 1: or Bloody Eckhart totally here, but you know, trying to

789
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: figure out where does all my stuff finish? And where

790
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: does Craig start? And by stuff, I mean everything from

791
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: physical stuff to programming, psychological garbage, emotional garbage, experiences, memories,

792
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: you know, fear, anxiety, self doubt, self loathing, self love,

793
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: Like where where am I in the middle of all

794
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: of that stuff? To try to And I feel like,

795
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: you know, in Buddhist philosophy you do a deep dive

796
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: and understood one of the things, trying to understand the self. Yeah.

797
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: I'm probably wording this incorrectly, but and I feel like

798
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: almost the comparison over here his fingers in the ear

799
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,360
Speaker 1: la la la, don't want to know. I've got to

800
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: buy a big itellly.

801
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, you know there are different. Yes, First

802
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 3: that you're right, the Buddhist sort of pushes is understanding

803
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 3: how the self exists, and you know, it's the fundamental

804
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 3: of the whole thing. Actually, you know, I'm talking about

805
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 3: this rareification idea earlier that you know, rarefying or confusing.

806
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 3: Sometimes we call it a memory with an event. Well,

807
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 3: fundamentally in Buddhism, the issue is beliefs about myself, like

808
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 3: I raify who I think I am and it's and

809
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 3: I think it's unchanging. And that's the problem. You know,

810
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 3: the other side of what you're saying in terms of say,

811
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 3: buying a bigger TV and these things is you can

812
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,720
Speaker 3: we talk again in this you know, this cultivating emotional

813
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 3: balance program that that I sort of worked with in

814
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 3: my research and and my work. We we've again we've

815
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 3: lifted this from from Asia. We've lifted this from from Buddhism.

816
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 3: Really just divide happiness into two types, which is worth

817
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 3: doing because the ancient Greeks didn't agree on it, you know,

818
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 3: they killed not Socrates. Anyway, the guy came up with

819
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 3: you Demonia, who's escaped my mind for some reason. Just ah,

820
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 3: like the most flamous of the more I don't think

821
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 3: about this all day. So the Greeks couldn't agree on it,

822
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 3: neuroscience doesn't agree on it, cognitive psychology can't. No one

823
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 3: can agree on what happiness is. But of course if

824
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 3: you look to Asia, you know, which we never do

825
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 3: as scientists, then maybe there's something there. And there's this

826
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 3: there's a very neat division. Actually in Buddhism, we can

827
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 3: make it sort of very secularized by saying we talk

828
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 3: about two types. There's a type of happiness defined like this,

829
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 3: a type of happiness or well being derived from what

830
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 3: you bring to the world. And you've got a hedonic type,

831
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 3: which is you can imagine type of happiness well being

832
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 3: derived from what you get from the world's full Because

833
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 3: there's no third option here, right, you just divide it

834
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,280
Speaker 3: up into two. And they're not good or bad because

835
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 3: you know, if it's raining and you have an umbrella,

836
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 3: this is this is hedonic. If I'm hungry and I

837
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 3: have food is hedonic, So you need hedonic wellbeing. The

838
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 3: issue is how much of that hedonic resources do I

839
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 3: put in the pursuit of the genuine this eu'd ammonic type.

840
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 3: This is the issue. Yes, So yeah, that's having a

841
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 3: big TVs is not in and of itself bad the

842
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 3: usual Do I believe it will make me genuinely happy?

843
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 3: And the answer for most people is yes, which is

844
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 3: problematic because it just puts you on a hetonic treadmill

845
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 3: that will throw you off at some point. Well.

846
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: Even one of the very often misquoted scriptures from the

847
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: New Testament is that money is the root of all evil,

848
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: when an actual fact, it says the love of money. No, wait,

849
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: does I didn't know that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it doesn't

850
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 1: say money is the root of all evil. It says

851
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: the love of money is the root of all evil.

852
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: So like a TV is just a thing, money is

853
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: just a thing. They're both resources. It depends what they

854
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: represent to you and the relationship for one of a

855
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: better term.

856
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 3: That is so interesting that I'm so glad you said that.

857
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 3: I find that because that is completely different.

858
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: Oh well exactly, it's a completely different idea.

859
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And it's belief. It comes down to this thing. Again,

860
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 3: if I believe that it's going to make me happy,

861
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 3: for example, that's the problem, and I ratify the belief,

862
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 3: and so one of the things that you're doing in

863
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 3: traditional So this is not modern popularized versions, but traditionally

864
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 3: in meditation practice, in contemplation, that's what you're sort of

865
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 3: aiming for is to try to have things. So I get,

866
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 3: you know, someone hands me a I don't know, like

867
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 3: a pizza or a chocolate or a beer or a whatever,

868
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 3: you know, and it appears to me like that thing

869
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 3: is going to make me happy, right, And that's what

870
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 3: that's the appearance. It is in no worries. You know

871
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 3: it's not true. It is. It can't be true because

872
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 3: if it was, let's say it's pizza. You know, if

873
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 3: piza made me happy, then the more pizza I ate,

874
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 3: the happier I would be. Right, Yes, as long as

875
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 3: I had to eating pizza, I'd be happy. And we

876
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 3: know it's not true. It would turn to suffering access.

877
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 3: So the issue becomes when that thing appears. We think

878
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:02,760
Speaker 3: about this as mindful and insight training. When something appears

879
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 3: to me and like wow, it appears like like that

880
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 3: thing will make me happy. But I have mindfulness training,

881
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 3: which doesn't buy in. Mindfulness training in Buddhism isn't non judgmental.

882
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 3: This is a this is a new thing. Buddhism doesn't

883
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,800
Speaker 3: talk about non judgmental for very good reasons. Buddhism is

884
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 3: interested in non reactivity, so that so that when it

885
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 3: pops up to me and I immediately do have a judgment, Oh,

886
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 3: it's going to make me happy, right, yes, and so

887
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 3: then but rather than automatically reaching for it, it's the

888
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 3: reactivity we cut and you have a moment, hey, will

889
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 3: it really so? No? I know that it won't, but

890
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 3: only intellectually, you know, I know that it's not like this,

891
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 3: And that's when you start to get mindfulness links up

892
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,840
Speaker 3: with these insight kind of trainings, and that's what it's for.

893
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 3: So as bad as bad decisions, potential bad decisions pop up,

894
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 3: I keep interfering with them. No no, no, no, no

895
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 3: no no, or then and you make a good decision.

896
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 3: And as you would know, like thanks to long term potentiation,

897
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,320
Speaker 3: however you want to think, the more you make the

898
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 3: good decision, the more it becomes your habit, and eventually

899
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 3: you've sort of reversed the negative you know, reactivity, and

900
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 3: actually what's the word, you know, it cultivated the positive one.

901
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 3: And that's what meditation training is really for. At first,

902
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 3: you do it with the things that you say and

903
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 3: do physical, verbal but over time you turn it in

904
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 3: on the mental as well.

905
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: What is I love that? Thank you? We're on the

906
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: home straight. So in our in our culture, I'm generalizing,

907
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: but most of us grew up in a paradigm or

908
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 1: a kind of a group think that taught us that

909
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: success is about what we have and what we earn,

910
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 1: and what we drive, and where we live and what

911
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: people think of us and our brand these days, our

912
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: brand and our listeners and our followers and all the

913
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 1: all the external things right and again, there's nothing wrong

914
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: inherently with any of those things. But you know, we

915
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: all know that. I mean, I do it. I get

916
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,240
Speaker 1: X amount of listeners and I'm like, oh, that's amazing.

917
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: And then two days later on I want two X,

918
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: and then I want three X, and I'm on and

919
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: off the hedonic treadmill because I'm like, now I need

920
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 1: twenty X to get the same pleasure response that I

921
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,760
Speaker 1: used to get with one. The only thing that's changed

922
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: is me. I've desensitized myself. Blah blah blah blah blah.

923
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: So my long winded question is is there what is

924
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: what does Buddhism teach about success? Or is there a

925
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: concept of success? In Buddhism. Oh yeah, there's nobody in

926
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 1: Australia that doesn't want to be successful. And of course

927
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: that means different things to different people. But is there

928
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: is that an idea or it seems like it might

929
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 1: not be well you would.

930
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 3: It depends, so it is you could talk so fundamentally

931
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,840
Speaker 3: say well, success would be what we call liberation and

932
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 3: in Layton then you know, there are these Buddhisms kind

933
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,800
Speaker 3: of goal oriented. People are surprised. I was surprised to

934
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 3: find you know, I heard you.

935
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: Say that on a video. I've watched a bee all right, yeah,

936
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: by the way, great, there's some on substack. Is it

937
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 1: on substack?

938
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:10,919
Speaker 3: Yeah?

939
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, really good. Go and have a look at

940
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 1: Corey on there if one, but sorry, carry.

941
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 3: On all things. Yeah, it's kind of goal oriented. So

942
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 3: there is this idea, you know, this belief if you

943
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 3: like that you can eliminate suffering because it's all focused

944
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 3: on the mind. You know, that's the conversation for another time,

945
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 3: but that's your long term goal. So you could argue

946
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 3: that this is success, so that that would take a

947
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 3: lot of work. But in the meantime there are these

948
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 3: sort of you know, way stations you know if you

949
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 3: like along the path and so, yeah, you would from

950
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 3: a would as perspective you'd be looking at So I

951
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 3: should just flag this and I'm not pulling this out

952
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 3: of I'm just giving my own opinion here now. So

953
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 3: I don't want to people to think but that there

954
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 3: are things you would look at, things like well, sorry,

955
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 3: having said that, I can tell you what the dal

956
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 3: Alarma actually says. I've heard him say this numerous times,

957
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 3: is that if you've got a meditation practice or a

958
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 3: spiritual practice of some kind and you want to know

959
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 3: it's working, look back five years till now, like are

960
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 3: you doing better now than you were five years ago?

961
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 3: And if so, it's working. So there is that What

962
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 3: would those measures be? Is the issue? Right?

963
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 1: Like?

964
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 3: How would I manage?

965
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: What are theis for that?

966
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it depends who you are, you know. For me,

967
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 3: it would be things like how do I handle adversity?

968
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 3: In fact, what do I even think adversity is? If

969
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 3: you want to just keep pushing you know, how often

970
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,919
Speaker 3: do I have a problematic situation that I turn into

971
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,760
Speaker 3: a learning problem solving experience? That would be one. Another

972
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 3: one would be how often do I factor in in

973
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 3: the things I'm saying and doing the impact I'm having

974
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,280
Speaker 3: on those around me. So now you're bringing this kindness

975
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 3: compassion thing into it too. Now, is this would be

976
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 3: success if I'm managing to operate in such a way

977
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 3: that is at least least minimizing any sort of disturbance

978
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 3: I might be causing people out there.

979
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 1: That's good.

980
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 3: If I'm the more that I'm habitually acting in a

981
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 3: way that actually even maybe helps them, or at least

982
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 3: I'm motivated, because my motivation to help you might not

983
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 3: actually help you, you know, but at least if I'm

984
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 3: motivated to do so, then that would be kind of

985
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 3: a success for me as well, you know. So these

986
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 3: would be the Buddhist ways of thinking. Is how more even,

987
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 3: how less sorry? How much has my reactivity died down?

988
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 3: This is important? And then in terms of my reactions,

989
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 3: how much do they lead to or make a push

990
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 3: towards the genuine side of wellbeing rather than the hedonic?

991
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:41,919
Speaker 3: And then if you do that, you have to stop

992
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,879
Speaker 3: and think, well, what sort of things cause this eudaemonic

993
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 3: this genuine happiness? And that's when you start talking about

994
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 3: high levels of attention skills, kindness, compassion, insight, we talk

995
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 3: about equanimity and these things, so there are causes for it.

996
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 3: So how often do I put how well and consistently

997
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 3: do I put my hedonic resources in the service of

998
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 3: the genuine? That's the KPI, you know. And for me

999
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 3: sometimes I just sit down and watch really shit TV

1000
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 3: because I'm tired, and you know what I mean, That's okay,

1001
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 3: because I don't have any expect The issue is I

1002
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 3: don't expect it's going to help. I'm just gonna, you know,

1003
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 3: just blank out for an hour or so. But that's it.

1004
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 3: How often am I putting this hedonic resources to the

1005
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 3: into the service of the world, of the genuine?

1006
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 1: I think it's I put up a little post the

1007
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 1: other day on my Instagram and the title of the

1008
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 1: thing was fuck all hyphenated fuck all days or and

1009
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: or fuck all moments, And it's like, I think there

1010
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: are times when in the middle of the business and

1011
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 1: the box sticking and the learning and evolving and adapting

1012
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 1: and serving and researching, you want to have some days

1013
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 1: where you do fuck all and it's good. It's some

1014
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 1: nights where you go, what are you doing? Nothing?

1015
00:53:59,160 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 3: Like?

1016
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 1: I feel like we almost in our culture have got

1017
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: to come up with a shopping list of what are

1018
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: you doing this weekend? I'll stand by, I'll read you

1019
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:09,760
Speaker 1: the list, versus fucking nothing.

1020
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 3: That's what I'm doing.

1021
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 1: You're doing tonight? Nothing? You want to do something?

1022
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 3: No?

1023
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: I want to do nothing. You know, I'd love to

1024
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 1: go on.

1025
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 3: Well, I just in that. Like, it's like how how

1026
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 3: you sort of respond to stress? And I often have

1027
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 3: said that there's kind of two main ways. One is

1028
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 3: to kind of face it and understand it and deal

1029
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 3: with it, and one is to drown it out. But

1030
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 3: there's a time for both, actually, and that's exactly Sometimes

1031
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 3: I joke about just pulling the curtains with my wife,

1032
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 3: you know, and seeing, now, let's just drown this shit out,

1033
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:48,280
Speaker 3: like you know, it's fine, yes, but I don't believe

1034
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,400
Speaker 3: it's a long term solution. That's the issue. You know.

1035
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 3: If you believe that's going to have some impact in

1036
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 3: the longer term, then that's when it causes some problems. Otherwise,

1037
00:54:57,960 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 3: you're fine, man, take a day off.

1038
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 1: Hey, so good to meet you and chat to you.

1039
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: I feel like we didn't get halfway through what we

1040
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 1: could get through. So maybe another online date at some

1041
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 1: stage if you're up for it point people towards the

1042
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: things you would like to point them towards, if you'd

1043
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 1: be so kind.

1044
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 3: Sure, At the moment, the Substack is the best place,

1045
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 3: you know, Corey Jackson. You'll find it's called more than

1046
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 3: merely coping. It's my substack. I do have a website,

1047
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 3: but it's so old and I haven't looked at it

1048
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 3: because the PhD has consumed in my life, and so

1049
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 3: I run online online communities. There's a free section that's

1050
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 3: just full of all the resources of courses I run,

1051
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 3: and then there's a paid section where I work with

1052
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,960
Speaker 3: people one to one or in groups as well, which

1053
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 3: you can find if you get in touch with me.

1054
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,800
Speaker 3: But the Substack at the moment is becoming my go to.

1055
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 3: I'm quite fond of that platform. By the way, I'm

1056
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 3: becoming my go to.

1057
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:56,879
Speaker 1: I'm going to get on there. I'm not on there,

1058
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: but I had a look at yours and I was impressed,

1059
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 1: and I watched and videos and had a little bit

1060
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: of a sneak around. It's very good. So yeah, go

1061
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 1: and check it out, everybody, Corey Jackson. Co O r

1062
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 1: E Y Corey Jackson. Go check him out. Hey mate,

1063
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:13,800
Speaker 1: Well say goodbye affair, but thank you so much for

1064
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: coming on the show. Really appreciate you and really enjoyed

1065
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 1: getting to know you.

1066
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, me too, that was great. Thanks Buddy, thanks for

1067
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 3: having me, Thanks Tip, thank you.