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Speaker 1: You are about to receive a film call from the

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Speaker 1: correctional facility. The conversation will be.

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Speaker 2: Recorded after the inquest into William Tirel's disappearance finishes hearing

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Speaker 2: evidence in public.

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Speaker 1: If you do not wish to receive this call, please

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Speaker 1: hang up now.

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Speaker 2: A lawyer for the New South Wales State Coroner sends

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Speaker 2: me an email.

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Speaker 1: This call is originating from the Shortland Correctional Center.

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Speaker 2: With a link to dozens and dozens of exhibits that

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Speaker 2: were tendered at the inquest, including witness statements, photographs, things

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Speaker 2: we've never seen before and these recordings of Frank Abbott

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Speaker 2: inside prison in November twenty nineteen, where Frank is serving

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Speaker 2: time for sexually abusing children and here he's talking on

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Speaker 2: the phone to a Christian pastor, Martin Parrish and his

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Speaker 2: wife Jeannette.

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Speaker 1: I'm really good, thank you.

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Speaker 3: How are you.

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Speaker 4: Days? It's not funny really, it's the.

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Speaker 2: First time we've heard these recordings, which have never previously

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Speaker 2: been made public, and listening to them, the first thing

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Speaker 2: that strikes me, why yesterday, is that Frank who and

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Speaker 2: I'll stress this, Frank's in prison for sexually and indecently

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Speaker 2: assaulting children. Frank is winging.

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Speaker 4: We had four full days and two days locking in

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Speaker 4: the last couple of weeks.

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Speaker 1: Ah, that's very good.

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Speaker 2: Frank says, he's been locked up for too long. Inside

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Speaker 2: his prison cell.

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Speaker 4: Breakfast and they brought at luncher it.

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Speaker 2: Frank complains the prison breakfast was late coming and lunch

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Speaker 2: was too early. I mean Didham's.

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Speaker 4: A few days ago now.

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Speaker 2: But then Frank says he's spoken to his two surviving brothers,

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Speaker 2: Les and David. He says the police investigating William's disappearance

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Speaker 2: have been up to see them.

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Speaker 4: They're in the place.

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Speaker 2: Frank says the cops asked his brothers about a murder murder,

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Speaker 2: a murder Frank was charged with and where he was

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Speaker 2: found not guilty.

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Speaker 4: And the second to half the fall half during the

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Speaker 4: twelve months later, at another four and a half weeks.

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Speaker 2: In, the cops are still bringing it up. Frank, sis

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Speaker 2: have done this one, saying oh, he's done this, and

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Speaker 2: he's done that. We think he might have done this one.

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Speaker 2: The priest answers, well, that's that's that's fair thinking, and

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Speaker 2: Jeanette Parish chips in not fair.

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Speaker 5: I'm not guilty.

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Speaker 6: You should be able to say I'm not guilty.

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Speaker 2: But what exactly do the police mean by saying we

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Speaker 2: think he might have done this one? Were they talking

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Speaker 2: about William? If so, Frank denies it. That beat means

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Speaker 2: the conversation has to end soon. You only get a

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Speaker 2: few minutes on a prison phone call. In the rush

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Speaker 2: to end the call, nobody seems to ask Frank who

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Speaker 2: was it? He was found not guilty of murdering. I'm

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Speaker 2: Dan box and from news dot com dot Au. This

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Speaker 2: is witness William Tyrrell Episode thirteen. Helen Helen Mary Harrison

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Speaker 2: was a teenager with dark hair and a bright smile,

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Speaker 2: and she was all of seventeen years old, but looked

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Speaker 2: younger as she left work at the local store in

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Speaker 2: Pitttown in Western Sydney on Saturday, the sixteenth of March

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight. It was hot that afternoon, early autumn,

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Speaker 2: and a storm was building up as Helen set out

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Speaker 2: to cycle the few kilometers through farmland and scattered houses

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Speaker 2: to her home and her family. Only she never got there.

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Speaker 2: Today few people remember Helen, but among them is her

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Speaker 2: brother Peter. I meet him in a cafe in a

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Speaker 2: built up part of Western Sydney, where Peter brings his

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Speaker 2: old handwritten notes from decades ago and fading newspaper clippings.

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Speaker 2: Peter was fourteen when it happened, but today he's an

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Speaker 2: old man and sitting together, it feels like he's wrapped

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Speaker 2: up in grief or silence or something. He's hesitant his

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Speaker 2: words stop and start or trail away. Later, we sit

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Speaker 2: in the sunlight coming through a small window in his home,

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Speaker 2: and I asked him to tell me about his sister.

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Speaker 7: Well, being older than us, she was working, had more

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Speaker 7: of her own life than her cellphone, my brother.

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Speaker 5: And.

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Speaker 2: What kind of person was she? Looking back? How do

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Speaker 2: you think of her?

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Speaker 7: Well, she enjoyed. She actually had to cycle to work

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Speaker 7: at Pittown, which is quite a distance, four or five

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Speaker 7: kilometers to Pittown. But apparently she used to sing on

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Speaker 7: the bike other people who told us, and just worked

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Speaker 7: in the general store.

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Speaker 2: So she used to sing on the bike she cycled

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Speaker 2: to and from work.

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Speaker 7: Yes, and more of a social life than my brother

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Speaker 7: and I.

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Speaker 2: How would you describe her physically as you remember her?

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Speaker 7: Oh? Maybe quite good looking and more matures than than us.

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Speaker 7: That's about how as much I.

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Speaker 2: Can can I and I'm sorry to do this, can

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Speaker 2: I ask what you remember of what happened to her?

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Speaker 7: Oh, certainly remember it all on the day where there

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Speaker 7: was a big storm in Pittown, fairly hot weekend, when

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Speaker 7: a hot day turns into a storm. And we believe

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Speaker 7: this is maybe part of the reason she accepted a

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Speaker 7: lift because of the rain.

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Speaker 2: And what came next.

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Speaker 7: Oh, we're waiting and waiting on the afternoon, but she

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Speaker 7: didn't come out. Excuse me.

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Speaker 2: Peter takes a moment looking out the window as his

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Speaker 2: memory reaches back across the decades.

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Speaker 7: But it was later in the day, I think four

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Speaker 7: or five, and my father, he was driving around looking

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Speaker 7: all through the night. Really we didn't know.

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Speaker 2: What had happened, and the police became involved. And can

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Speaker 2: you remember much of their investigation at the time.

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Speaker 7: The police, I think only for in the beginning. They

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Speaker 7: didn't think anything had happened to her. They thought she

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Speaker 7: may have run off, left home, shot through somewhere, but

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Speaker 7: she was happy to her no reason to do that.

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Speaker 7: And they didn't try and look at all for the

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Speaker 7: first early days.

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Speaker 2: And how did that feel?

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Speaker 7: Well, it was a bit hopeless for everyone. We didn't

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Speaker 7: just kept on just driving around and talking to people

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Speaker 7: and asking if they and local people told us that's

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Speaker 7: any blue utility and three people in it. I think

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Speaker 7: it was three or Helen in the middle. Some of

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Speaker 7: had seen a bike in the back of a blue utility.

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Speaker 7: That was the rumor.

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Speaker 2: But this was your family doing the looking at this point.

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Speaker 2: The police weren't looking.

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Speaker 7: I don't think they were until the basket was discovered.

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Speaker 2: That was Helen's basket.

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Speaker 7: I think it was about a week later, and that

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Speaker 7: was the first clue of where wish you might have been.

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Speaker 2: And then they started to look.

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Speaker 7: Yes, and then they found in the bush land there

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Speaker 7: the shallow grove off the side of the road there.

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Speaker 2: Can I ask how that was for you as a

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Speaker 2: child and for your parents.

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Speaker 7: Well, very traumatic of course then, but it was worse

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Speaker 7: for mother anybody. There was a big loss in a

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Speaker 7: lot of.

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Speaker 2: Ways, and that loss is something you've lived with. Imagine

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Speaker 2: your parents lived with for the whold of their lives

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Speaker 2: without ever maybe being given an answer as to exactly

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Speaker 2: what happened by the police and the courts.

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Speaker 7: Yes, that is true. There's been no firm result about habbit,

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Speaker 7: although it's been We've had two trials and a lot

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Speaker 7: of do you say evidence and some stronger evidence, which

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Speaker 7: is all amounted to nothing in the end as far

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Speaker 7: as finding out the truth.

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Speaker 2: And watching all of that over the years, and it

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Speaker 2: was decades, what do you think looking back at that now.

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Speaker 7: It seemed to be that this type of murder case

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Speaker 7: as it was, was unknown well there anyone had heard

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Speaker 7: of before in Maria district, town district, and it was.

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Speaker 2: It was just.

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Speaker 7: More hard to deal with, I suppose. And yes, even

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Speaker 7: with a lot of evidence of some degree and opinions

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Speaker 7: from other people and a missing watch which Habit had

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Speaker 7: boasted about. He's told other people that he's got they've

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Speaker 7: seen watching the club box of the car.

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Speaker 2: Did Helen wear a watch? Oh yes, We'll come back

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Speaker 2: to that watch later.

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Speaker 7: And we thought the police would have been taking more

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Speaker 7: action and were dividing more people that type of thing.

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Speaker 2: And later when Abbott was eventually charged and taken to court,

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Speaker 2: when we met, you said you had doubts about the

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Speaker 2: jury system based on what you've been through.

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Speaker 7: The whole thing is just hanging on a jury, and

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Speaker 7: it only takes one person not to agree with it,

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Speaker 7: because and then the whole jury can file. And some

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Speaker 7: people possibly weren't happy with the decision and just said I.

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Speaker 2: And you would have seen Frank in the courtroom.

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Speaker 7: Yes, I saw him in the court and going him,

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Speaker 7: but I never saw him coming out.

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Speaker 2: Could you describe him now?

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Speaker 7: He's a stand over me. Yeah, literally, that's what people

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Speaker 7: used to say. That's a word of her. It's written

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Speaker 7: them from what other people say. But he did look

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Speaker 7: a bit fearsome. I suppose.

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Speaker 2: Frank looked fearsome enough that even his own lawyer described

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Speaker 2: him in court as someone who stands over people to

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Speaker 2: get his way. But that doesn't make him a murderer,

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Speaker 2: the lawyer argued. And as the jury found, looking back

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Speaker 2: at what happened, what are your regrets?

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Speaker 7: Oh, the time factor well landor in sixty eight, natrial

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Speaker 7: wasn't until ninety one or two. That's ridicuous, twenty three

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Speaker 7: or four years and literally that's that's terrible.

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Speaker 2: And what have you heard from the police since that trial?

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Speaker 7: Very little, if any that I can remember.

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Speaker 2: It's now fifty years or more since Helen went missing,

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Speaker 2: and we've heard Frank's name in the years since. In

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Speaker 2: relation to the William Tyrell investigation. You said the police

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Speaker 2: haven't contacted you since the trial. Do you still have

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Speaker 2: any hopes that what happened to your so that can

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Speaker 2: be resolved? What do you hope for now?

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Speaker 7: I would like to see a resolution, But there's because

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Speaker 7: there has been a lot of evidence over the years,

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Speaker 7: a lot of people interviewed and provided their thoughts and

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Speaker 7: some facts, and it's all come to nothing in spite

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Speaker 7: of two court cases after all this time, and we

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Speaker 7: know Abbott is a bad person, and the sheer amount

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Speaker 7: of stories, really, it's got to be there's got to

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Speaker 7: be more interest put in Abbot.

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Speaker 2: You'd like to see the police pay more attention to

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Speaker 2: Frank Abbott.

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Speaker 7: Certainly. Yes, it's a very old case, but is not

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Speaker 7: of unsold answers questions.

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Speaker 2: After walking outside, Peter's bicycle is standing up against his

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Speaker 2: garage wall. He says he cycles like his sister Helen,

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Speaker 2: and I think of her cycling home from work on

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Speaker 2: that day singing. It's an image that I can't shake,

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Speaker 2: and nor can Nina, the producer.

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Speaker 8: On this series, All right, thank you both.

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Speaker 2: Nina has spent months now trying to find out more

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Speaker 2: about Helen's death and what happened after.

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Speaker 8: So what I want to do today is take you

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Speaker 8: through what I've found out about this afternoon.

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Speaker 2: She's asked me and Gary Jubilin to join her in

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Speaker 2: the studio.

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Speaker 8: And this information is based on court documents that I've

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Speaker 8: been able to find and newspaper articles that were written

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Speaker 8: at the time.

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Speaker 2: Gary is one of the detectives who led the investigation

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Speaker 2: into William Tyrrel's disappearance. He's got a checkered history with

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Speaker 2: the case, which we've talked about a lot earlier in

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Speaker 2: this series. But nobody disputes Gary knows police work. He

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Speaker 2: spent thirty four years in the New South Wales Police Force,

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Speaker 2: most of them investigating homicides.

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Speaker 8: And what I'm going to try and do is present

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Speaker 8: it to you in a way that's not my opinion.

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Speaker 8: You know, I'm trying to color it. So if you

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Speaker 8: think I am doing that, speak up let me know.

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Speaker 9: Okay, just affects me.

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Speaker 8: Just the facts, all right. Shall we get started, Okay,

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Speaker 8: So it's nineteen sixty eight. Let's start with Frank Abbott

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Speaker 8: and what he was doing in nineteen sixty eight. So

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Speaker 8: Frank's in his twenties and he's living with his parents

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Speaker 8: in Kingswood, which is a suburb in the west of Sydney.

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Speaker 8: It's not too far from Penrith.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so it's far west of Sydney.

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Speaker 8: Yeah. Frank's from a big family, has got lots of

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Speaker 8: brothers and sisters. And he's also I guess what you'd

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Speaker 8: call like a petty criminal, so car theft, burglary, break

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Speaker 8: and enter, that kind of level of criminal.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: How old is he?

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Speaker 8: Roughly in his sort of mid to late late twenties. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 8: so that's Frank at that point. About half an hour

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Speaker 8: from Kingswood is pitt Town and that is where Helen Harrison,

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Speaker 8: who's seventeen at the time, is working.

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Speaker 9: I do Pittown then, what are we talking? Sixty eight?

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Speaker 9: That would a ban A very small place, small place.

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Speaker 2: It's right on the fringe of Sydney bush than.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, acres and farmland and all that. Pit Town.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 8: Helen at the time, she was really reliable, go to work,

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Speaker 8: come home. On the sixteenth of March nineteen sixty eight,

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Speaker 8: she left work about twelve forty five pm and she

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Speaker 8: hopped on her bike to ride home, as she always did.

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Speaker 8: People saw her leave, but she never made it home.

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Speaker 8: She was not the kind of teenager who would just

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Speaker 8: go off without telling her parents, so they raised the

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Speaker 8: alarm pretty quickly, there's a search and they just can't

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Speaker 8: find her.

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Speaker 2: How good would a search have been from the police

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Speaker 2: at that time, Gary sixty eight.

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Speaker 9: It would literally be driving around on the roads and

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Speaker 9: they wouldn't have the communication seventeen year old girl leaving

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Speaker 9: the store riding on a country road. I dare say

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Speaker 9: that the search would be that she hasn't been involved

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Speaker 9: in an accident or whatever. So I think it'd be

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Speaker 9: a cursory drive along the roadways on the most likely

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Speaker 9: path that she would have taken.

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Speaker 2: So it's not flooding the area like we saw were William.

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Speaker 9: I wouldn't imagine seventeen year girl on the bike sixty eight,

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Speaker 9: So I think that's what the search would have been.

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Speaker 8: So it's about a week later they find Helen's body.

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Speaker 8: She's in a shallow grave in East Courageong, which is

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Speaker 8: around the area she was murdered, and she was found

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Speaker 8: naked from the waist down. I don't think that they

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Speaker 8: have a cause of death.

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Speaker 2: Do you know anything about You said it was a

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Speaker 2: shallow grave, but where it was it.

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Speaker 9: Was in the Carrageng Yeah, you've got pitt Town in

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Speaker 9: the plains windsor planes Richmond East Carriageong is as you're

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Speaker 9: starting to go up into the Blue Mountains, so that

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Speaker 9: would have been Yeah, it's a bit wild, so that

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Speaker 9: would be a place you'd take someone.

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Speaker 2: It's even further out of Sydney, it's more remote. You've

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Speaker 2: gone through this kind of idylic country edge and now

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Speaker 2: you're getting into the mountains. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.

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Speaker 8: They found the body and she had been paid at

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Speaker 8: her job about twenty dollars that was missing, her watch

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Speaker 8: was missing, her underwear was missing, and her bike was

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Speaker 8: missing at that time. But they did find that a

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Speaker 8: few months later.

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Speaker 2: Gary, can I ask a question which isn't a pleasant question,

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Speaker 2: or none of this is pleasant. If you find a

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Speaker 2: teenager's body roughly a week after she's died in sixty eight,

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Speaker 2: how do you tell she's been sexually assaulted?

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Speaker 9: Could be damage around the round, the vagina or the

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Speaker 9: anus that might have been because of the flesh. Potentially

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Speaker 9: that the flesh is still there.

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Speaker 2: So, because there's not going to be modern day forensics,

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Speaker 2: there's no DNA.

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Speaker 9: Maybe they'd swab for blood back then, but it's not DNA.

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Speaker 8: So she was naked from the waist down.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So that yeah, Okay, there's that.

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Speaker 8: So there's no immediate obvious suspect for the police. So

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Speaker 8: I wanted to ask you, Gary, I imagine this kind

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Speaker 8: of seemingly random attack where you don't have that obvious suspect.

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Speaker 8: That's got to be one of the hardest kind of

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Speaker 8: crimes to solve, the most.

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Speaker 9: Stranger murders are what we consider most difficult ones.

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Speaker 2: But would you assume it was a stranger murder?

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Speaker 9: I'm just answering them. Stranger murders are the most difficult ones.

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Speaker 9: But you'd be thinking, okay, a strange murder if someone

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Speaker 9: was just driving along the road, but you'd be looking

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Speaker 9: at all the local people around there who knew who

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Speaker 9: knew she rode that route. You're looking at people that

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Speaker 9: victimology is the early part of the murder investigation, finding

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Speaker 9: out what her lifestyle is, what the patterns were. The

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Speaker 9: fact that the local community all knew she rode home

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Speaker 9: that way, well, that would open up suspects to everyone

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Speaker 9: in the community, or potential suspects.

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Speaker 2: So it's a cop you'd actually on the basis, so

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Speaker 2: that'll almost be walking into town and looking at potentially

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Speaker 2: anybody there.

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Speaker 9: And then line of a questioning. You'd speak to a

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Speaker 9: family and friends, anyone that's been paying particular attention to her,

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Speaker 9: anyone that stands out in the community that's a little

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Speaker 9: bit strange in the behavior, So that would be the

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Speaker 9: way you work the community.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, and that's exactly what the police did. So they

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Speaker 8: cast a pretty wide net, the following up every possible lead.

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Speaker 8: By the time the case goes to trial decades later,

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Speaker 8: the court hears that the police have spoken two thousands

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Speaker 8: of people in relations.

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Speaker 2: Thousands, thousands in sixty eight. The cops said that much

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Speaker 2: work into.

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Speaker 9: It, you'd be astounded. Like some of the old school investigations,

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Speaker 9: they were fascinating the amount of detail. We didn't have computers.

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Speaker 9: It wasn't electronic, but there was a card system in place,

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Speaker 9: and you'd have boxes of cards and a bit of

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Speaker 9: information be stored alphabetically in the system.

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Speaker 2: Like cross reference between cards.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, there was a lot of collating to be done.

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Speaker 9: But yeah, they were thorough because they didn't have the

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Speaker 9: benefits that we've got currently, like we've CCTV for the

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Speaker 9: phone records all that. So it was just that legwork.

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Speaker 9: You had to go out and speak to people and

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Speaker 9: that was the thing that solved cases.

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Speaker 8: Well, that's definitely what they were doing. And as far

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Speaker 8: as I can tell from the court records that I

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Speaker 8: have access to, Frank Abbott first comes onto their radar

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Speaker 8: when a sixteen year old boy goes to the police

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Speaker 8: in the weeks after Helen's murder and he tells them

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Speaker 8: that about two weeks before Helen's disappearance, he'd spoken to

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Speaker 8: a passenger in an old white Courtina sedan who expressed

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Speaker 8: an interest in Helen and her whereabouts.

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Speaker 2: And so that's all from court records.

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Speaker 5: Yeap.

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Speaker 8: So a teenager goes to the police and said, hey,

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Speaker 8: saw this guy in this car and he asked me

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Speaker 8: about Helen.

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Speaker 9: When he asked him about Helen. That was prior to

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Speaker 9: helen disappearance. Okay, yeah, okay, Well that's definitely a line

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Speaker 9: of inquiry that you'd be wanting to follow up.

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Speaker 8: So they do, and they go to Frank and they

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Speaker 8: ask him about it in April of nineteen sixty eight,

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Speaker 8: so it's about a month after the murder, and he

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Speaker 8: confirms that, yes, he was a passenger in that white

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Speaker 8: Courtina and he says his friend Trevor was driving, but

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Speaker 8: he says he doesn't remember asking about Helen, he tells

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Speaker 8: the police that he had met Helen a few months

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Speaker 8: earlier at a dance and he'd seen her around since then.

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Speaker 8: So when the police then asking about his whereabouts on

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Speaker 8: the day that Helen went missing, he said that he

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Speaker 8: and his brother John visited a hotel in Penrith about

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Speaker 8: ten thirty am, had a couple of beers left. By

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Speaker 8: twelve thirty pm, John drove Frank to his home in Kingswood,

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Speaker 8: where he stayed until about four thirty when his other

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Speaker 8: brother came and picked him up.

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Speaker 2: So that's again court records.

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Speaker 9: That's all in break that down at ten thirty am

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Speaker 9: to twelve thirty pm at the pub, at the pub

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Speaker 9: and then his brother dropped him home.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, so he's at the pub with his brother John.

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Speaker 8: John drove him back to Kingswood and then another brother

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Speaker 8: came and picked him up.

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Speaker 9: She disappeared. What time she's sat at twelve forty five

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Speaker 9: she's riding the bike came, so he's given basically he's

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Speaker 9: with his brother John at the critical stage.

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Speaker 2: So what time was she last seen?

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Speaker 9: Twelve forty five?

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Speaker 2: Twelve forty five, so he's left the pub just before

395
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Speaker 2: then with his brother so the only alibi witness at

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Speaker 2: the crucial time would be his brother.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, so that's my next question. Gary, you get that

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Speaker 8: alibi given to you from a person of interest, who

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Speaker 8: do you speak to?

400
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 9: Go to the pub see if they were together. That

401
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,719
Speaker 9: would be the first thing. And then I would be

402
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 9: grabbing the brother as quickly as I could and lock

403
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 9: him in and then speaking to other people, say, say

404
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 9: with the brother and associated with Frank, to see if

405
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Speaker 9: they corroborate it.

406
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Speaker 8: So the police don't speak to John, which is Frank's brother,

407
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Speaker 8: don't speak to John. In fact, no one speaks to

408
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Speaker 8: John until decades later when it goes to trial, and

409
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Speaker 8: at that point John has no memory of any of it.

410
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Speaker 2: So again it's court records saying absolutely the cops do

411
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Speaker 2: not speak to the person Frank nominates as his alibi witness.

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Speaker 8: Yes, and just as Slattery will later say in court,

413
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Speaker 8: such an interview might have been expected after the applicant

414
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 8: told police here and his brother John had visited a

415
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Speaker 8: hotel in Paris for several hours up to twelve thirty pm.

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Speaker 9: An understatement is it definitely should have been spoken to

417
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Speaker 9: and you'd be checking his hourbie like that.

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Speaker 2: Does that make any sense to you. If the cops

419
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 2: are working this hard enough that they speak to thousands

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Speaker 2: of people, but they don't speak to the brother who

421
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Speaker 2: Frank says he was with at the time, why are

422
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 2: you with that?

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Speaker 9: It comes down to I think leadership sometimes directions and

424
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 9: sheer volume of information comes in and like, we're looking

425
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 9: at it now, knowing what we know about Frank and

426
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 9: the type of person he is at that point in time.

427
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Speaker 9: He was in his mid twenties, might have the criminal history. Okay, well,

428
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Speaker 9: two blokes they go for a drink at the pub

429
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Speaker 9: that might have had that urgency.

430
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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so he's a potentially just someone who's come

431
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Speaker 2: up just okay, we've checked what he says he was doing.

432
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Speaker 2: We ticked that box. Move on, because they might have

433
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: been looking at someone they might have had.

434
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Speaker 9: So I'm always cautious when we're looking at old investigations

435
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 9: at what the information did they have at the time.

436
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 8: We're not done with the allibis. So the police do

437
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 8: speak to Trevor, who was the driver of the Courtena

438
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 8: hang on, So this is the guy who was in

439
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 8: the car with Frank when they spoke to that teenager who.

440
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: Said Frank was asking about Helen.

441
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 8: So Trevor said that he did remember Frank asking the

442
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Speaker 8: teenager about a girl who lived nearby.

443
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Speaker 9: Okay, so you're ramping Frank up a little.

444
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Speaker 7: Bit there, a little bit.

445
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Speaker 8: And then they speak to another of Frank's brothers, So

446
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 8: not John, who said he said he was at the

447
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 8: pub with but Ted. Ted is the brother that Frank's

448
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 8: said came by in the afternoon and picked him up.

449
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 8: So Ted says that he was at work from six

450
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 8: thirty am until four pm in Penrith, and then he

451
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 8: went to his mum's place in Kingswood, which is where

452
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 8: Frank was living at four point fifteen pm, and he

453
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 8: said Frank was there with his parents and a friend

454
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 8: named Rodney. They also speak to Frank's mum and so

455
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 8: there's a record that she told police that Frank was

456
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 8: home with her that afternoon.

457
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: Well that might be why they don't speak to the

458
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 2: brother who Frank actually says he was with.

459
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 8: But you'll notice that Ted has said that Frank was

460
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 8: at home with a friend named Rodney. Yeah, Frank didn't

461
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 8: mention that in his first alibi.

462
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 9: So the problem is if they've not spoken to John,

463
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 9: but they've spoken the ted so that they have got

464
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 9: interest in him. Yeah, and then so that they've missed John.

465
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: John's the crucial And you're right, you've spotted a contradiction

466
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: in Frank's own account of what he was doing.

467
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 5: Yep.

468
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 8: So at this point the alibi is a little bit muddy.

469
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 9: Well it's not it's not confirmed. That's non alibi all

470
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 9: over the place.

471
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: And just to stress, everything that you're saying is coming

472
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 2: from court records that you've got, that you've been through.

473
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: So this is evidence the court has heard. Because yeah,

474
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: it does sound like if I was a cop working

475
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 2: that one, I'd want to go back to Frank again and.

476
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 8: Say, yeah, I was looking at that, going gee, if

477
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 8: I was a cop, I think maybe I would have

478
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 8: confirmed this. They didn't. At this point, what.

479
00:30:58,440 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 2: Do you reckon to that?

480
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 9: Again? Who knows what was operating on their minds. But

481
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 9: if you're looking at the gold class, Yeah, let's do

482
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 9: it right. Obviously you speak to John. And the moment

483
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 9: if Frank was a suspect, the moment Frank nominated John,

484
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 9: I would be prioritizing getting someone to speak to John

485
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 9: before Frank has an opportunity.

486
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: And the moment you notice the contradiction between what his

487
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 2: other brother says and what Frank said.

488
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 9: You want to go back, Yeah, but you'd be getting

489
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 9: to that person straight away, and don't let them be

490
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 9: able to I wonder.

491
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 8: If you're speaking to thousands of people, if you just

492
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,719
Speaker 8: have this running list of these are things we have

493
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 8: to get to, you've got to confirm that person's well.

494
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 9: Literally up until the electronic systems come in. We'd have

495
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 9: a job book and a book and task number one,

496
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 9: go speak to Dan, box number two, go speak to Nana.

497
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 9: And you just have to keep that the whole time.

498
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 2: And if all of these little contradictions or missing persons

499
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: that you haven't spoken to, we're all in a card index,

500
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: and there's going to be shelves of those cards, isn't

501
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: there quickly? If you're speaking to a thousand people, you're

502
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 2: going to have boxes of cards and cross references. Stuff

503
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: is going to get lost.

504
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 9: It's not fool proof, but you can't justify not speaking

505
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 9: to John if Frank was a suspect and said he

506
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 9: was driving.

507
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 8: So the investigation continues. They haven't given up. They're still

508
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 8: casting this really wide net. They're still speaking to people

509
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 8: all around the area. They find Helen's bike in September

510
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 8: of nineteen sixty eight in Berkshire, which is not where

511
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 8: her body was found.

512
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 2: Berkshire Parks half an hour's drive from East Korea. It's

513
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,479
Speaker 2: a fair way away and you'd have to have a

514
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 2: car to move a bike that distance.

515
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 8: They keep doing interviews. One of the people that they

516
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 8: interview is a man named Gary Grimson, who will come

517
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 8: relevant later on. Gary gives a statement to the police

518
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 8: and I can tell you, according to court records, that

519
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 8: in nineteen sixty eight, when Gary Grimson spoke to the police,

520
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 8: he did not say anything to implicate Frank. They're thinking

521
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 8: at that point is that the offender is a local person.

522
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 8: And they also in an article of a time flagged

523
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 8: their interest in a pale blue hold and utility vehicle

524
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 8: that was seen in the area of Helen's disappearance at

525
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 8: the time. But I can tell you that they speak

526
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 8: to Frank again in September, so a few months later,

527
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 8: so this is nineteen sixty nine by this point, and

528
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 8: in that interview Frank finally corrects his alibi.

529
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 2: This is a quote Nina reads from Frank's own evidence

530
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: read out and court by the judge.

531
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 8: I made a mistake. What I'd done on that day,

532
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 8: sixteenth of March is as follows. On that morning, I

533
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 8: got up about eight or eight thirty am, went out

534
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 8: and helped my friends Brian and Rodney and my father

535
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 8: in the backyard. We were pulling Brian's car to pieces.

536
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 8: He said. He stayed in the backyard attending to the

537
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 8: vehicle until about eleven thirty am. And then this is

538
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 8: another quote, the four of us went up to the

539
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 8: shell station at Penrith to get some parts. On the

540
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 8: way back, we went to Woodruf Street to see my

541
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 8: brother Ted, and I stayed there until about twelve thirty

542
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 8: or a bit after. Then went home for lunch. And

543
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 8: I stayed at home with my father, brother, mother and

544
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 8: fixed the car. And later Brian and Rodney left. And

545
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 8: he said he thought that was about two PM. And

546
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 8: then he stayed at home and worked around the shed

547
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 8: with his father and his brother until about six thirty

548
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 8: or seven pm.

549
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 9: Yeah, and he's nominated how many people that he was

550
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 9: hanging out.

551
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 8: With his father, his mother, his brother, Rodney and Brian

552
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 8: he said were there. They left about two pm.

553
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 9: Okay, the crucial time twelve forty five to one forty five,

554
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 9: however long. So that's yeah, whether whoever he's claiming he

555
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 9: was with, that's a crucial time of the alibi.

556
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 2: What do you make of the fact that he's changed

557
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: his version of events completely? So within weeks of her

558
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 2: disappearance he gives one version of events, but months later

559
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 2: he changes his version of events completely. Do you read

560
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 2: anything into that.

561
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,399
Speaker 9: For anyone that changes an alibi? But to come out

562
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 9: strongly and say I was at this pub ten thirty

563
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 9: to twelve thirty and then driving with my brother.

564
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: Because that's the thing is precise that the first.

565
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 9: By that to me, something jumps out. I'm not sure

566
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 9: if it's just the way it's been recorded, because at

567
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 9: the pub ten thirty to twelve thirty, and then with

568
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 9: my brother.

569
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 8: So this correction of Frank's alibi is in nineteen sixty.

570
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 2: Nine, the year after how goes messing.

571
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 8: So going back to Ted's statement, he doesn't mention Frank

572
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 8: visiting him that day. In the statement that Frank gave

573
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 8: in nineteen sixty nine, he said that about eleven thirty am,

574
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 8: the four of us went to the shell station at

575
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 8: Penrith and got some parts. On the way back we

576
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 8: went to Woodruff Street to see my brother Ted, and

577
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 8: I stayed there until about twelve thirty. So Ted had

578
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 8: said he went to work at six thirty am and

579
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 8: worked all day till four pm, didn't mention Frank coming

580
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:55,479
Speaker 8: to visit him.

581
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 2: So Frank gives one version of events, which is essentially

582
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 2: contra addicted by his brother Ted. Then Frank gives a

583
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 2: different version of events, which also contradicts what his brother

584
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 2: has previously said.

585
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 8: Yep, yep. So again you would think you checked the alibi.

586
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 9: Yeah.

587
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 5: One.

588
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 9: The only way you can prove or disprove it is

589
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 9: other people's accounts that can support it.

590
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 2: Do they do that?

591
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:29,720
Speaker 8: Frank's father, Frank's brother John that we mentioned, Rodney Plackett,

592
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 8: who was the man that he said he was with,

593
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 8: Brian Stockman, who I think was another person who was

594
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 8: at the house.

595
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 2: Yep.

596
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 8: They were never interviewed by the police.

597
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 2: Kidding. So the again, that's all from the court.

598
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 8: Yep, this is all court.

599
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 2: Right, So those are people that Frank said he was with,

600
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 2: They're never interviewed by police.

601
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 8: I'm not speculating or offering opinions here this, No.

602
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 2: I'm offering opinion. That's really bad. I don't know, I

603
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:57,879
Speaker 2: not got anything to say about Frank, but in terms

604
00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 2: of the police investigation, that's really bad.

605
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 8: And this was criticized in court, and this was used

606
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 8: as to form part of the defense in court. So

607
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 8: decades later in court, Frank's lawyer will assert that at

608
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,959
Speaker 8: that point in the investigation, so say nineteen sixty nine,

609
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 8: on the available material, there was no forensic evidence linking

610
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 8: the applicant to the crime. There was no identification evidence

611
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 8: and no eyewitness evidence. So at this point the police

612
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 8: he didn't have anything solid.

613
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 2: Well, that's fair enough. There is actually no evidence linking

614
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 2: Frank to the murder at this point at all. Yeah, okay.

615
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 8: At this point Frank seems to be out of the investigation.

616
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 8: Over the next few years, he gets married to a

617
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,879
Speaker 8: woman named Katrina. He's also in and out of jail

618
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 8: for various crimes, none of them violent crimes, minor crimes. Yeah,

619
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 8: so again break and enter, stealing cars. So he and Katrina,

620
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 8: they seem to have a bit of a tumultuous marriage

621
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 8: in that various reports from that time seemed to say

622
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 8: they're together. Then they're not together. They have two children together,

623
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 8: I believe, But again, on and off he's in and

624
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 8: out of jail too in nineteen seventy seven, So we're skipping.

625
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 2: Ahead here almost ten years now.

626
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, okay, two women related to Katrina Abbott go to

627
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 8: the police.

628
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 2: So two women related to Frank's wife. Yeah, okay, go

629
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 2: to the place.

630
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 8: So one is Katrina's cousin. And what she tells the police,

631
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 8: and this is from court records, is that Frank took

632
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 8: her and Katrina, his wife, to the bush site where

633
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 8: Helen Harrison was found. And she said along that drive,

634
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 8: Frank was beating his wife, Katrina as they drove.

635
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 2: So as he's driving out to the site where Helen

636
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 2: Harrison's body is found, with at least two women in

637
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 2: the car with him, he is beating his wife.

638
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 8: That's what she said in her statement.

639
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 2: Which was hurt in court.

640
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 7: Yeah.

641
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 2: This evidence was heard in court during an part of

642
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 2: the legal process called a committal hearing, and it was

643
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,800
Speaker 2: heard again during the trial where Frank was found not guilty.

644
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 8: And she said he bragged about the killing, talked about

645
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 8: it as if it was a big joke, and said

646
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 8: that he'd scruffed the girl and he'd raped her. And

647
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 8: she also says he showed them a watch in his

648
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 8: glove compartment that he said was Helen's watch. She says

649
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 8: that Abbot told her that he tried to date Helen

650
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 8: Harrison at the shop where she worked in Pitttown and

651
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 8: Helen had refused him. Abbot also allegedly boasted to his

652
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 8: wife about how the girl had not stopped screaming while

653
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 8: being driven away from her home into the bush.

654
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 2: That's what that's what I caught, would lay her hair, yes, yeah.

655
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 8: Where he grabbed her by the throat and strangled her.

656
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 8: So all of this was what Katrina's cousin told the police.

657
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 8: She also said that Abbot had told her he had

658
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 8: sex with the girl before killing her, and again when

659
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 8: she was dead, and she said, I thought he must

660
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 8: be sick in the head.

661
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 2: You said there were two women, Yeah.

662
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 8: So that's the first woman. So the other woman that

663
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 8: went to the police in January of nineteen seventy seven

664
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 8: was Katrina's sister, and she told the police that Abbot

665
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 8: had lured her into his car where he made a

666
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 8: move on her, and she'd refused his advances and was

667
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 8: crying and she was pleading him to let her go.

668
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,439
Speaker 2: Again. This evidence was heard in Frank's committal hearing and

669
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 2: his trial.

670
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 8: But he took her out into the bush and he said,

671
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 8: you're like that other stupid bitch. I took her out

672
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 8: to the bush and I soon shut her up. So

673
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 8: she pleaded to be allowed to go home to attend

674
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 8: to her young baby. But Abbot took her out into

675
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 8: the bush, and she says in her statement to play

676
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 8: at knife point. It was a night long ordeal where

677
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 8: she was savagely rapped four times.

678
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 9: Okay, okay, bragging about crimes, I carry a little bit

679
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 9: of weight to it, but not It's not a deal

680
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 9: clincher for me. Someone bragging about a crime, he gets

681
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 9: off on terrorizing people. It might be part of his fantasy.

682
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 9: What interests me that he does know her and newer

683
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 9: in the area, it would have been a very small community.

684
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 9: Knowing that he knows her disappeared, he's alibi. And then

685
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 9: if we accept we're seeing the type of person he is.

686
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 9: He's a predator. He's a rapist.

687
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: And again, look he's not convicted of that, but that

688
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 2: as a detective, if you were looking at that, that

689
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 2: would be what this is.

690
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 9: How I'd be talking as a briefing. Okay, So whether

691
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 9: we got we've got a blake that newer. His names

692
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 9: come up early in the investigation. His alibi hasn't been

693
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 9: fully tested. We're now getting information that hasn't been improved

694
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,280
Speaker 9: to care. But we've got the statement from the victim.

695
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 9: He is saying she was raped at knife point.

696
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 2: He'd be someone you would want to pursue.

697
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 8: She also said in a statement that he showed her.

698
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 9: The watch, that's the thing, and that we said that

699
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 9: the watch, the clothing was watch was money taking. Ye.

700
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 2: That suggests he has got physical evidence that would link him,

701
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 2: because that would be a clincher.

702
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 9: Yeah, on that information, you could execute a search.

703
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 2: Warrant and if you got the watch, you'd almost be looking.

704
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 9: At your watch. I'd say you've got circumstantial, but the

705
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 9: strong circumstantial brief.

706
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,400
Speaker 2: So you'd be potentially charging.

707
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 9: At that point, you've got him linked to the crime.

708
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: Did they find the watch?

709
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,919
Speaker 8: So this is a quote from one of the court

710
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 8: records I found after the women came forward. It seems

711
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 8: that the police did not initiate any further investigation into

712
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 8: the matter.

713
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 9: I can't pinpoint who I would criticize over that.

714
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 2: Now you might say you don't want to criticize, but

715
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 2: there's a witness saying there might be physical evidence that

716
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,879
Speaker 2: would directly link him to the crime, which you said

717
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: just on her account, you could get a search warrant.

718
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

719
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the cops would be able to within honestly

720
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 2: hours maybe day, get a search warrant. Yeah, get his

721
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,439
Speaker 2: car and see if that watch is there.

722
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 9: And where I think potentially you're failing just knowing the organization.

723
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 9: Everyone's operating in silos. That might be information passed on

724
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 9: to a local detective. You then got homicide squad station

725
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 9: somewhere else and information like that because of the manner

726
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 9: in which it was stored, like it's not you can't

727
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 9: access a computer. It would have been the old card system.

728
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,879
Speaker 9: So to be me picking up speaking to pitt Town

729
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,799
Speaker 9: Police station is a detective on can you get him

730
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 9: to check that?

731
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 8: Yeah, I will flag that the two women that came

732
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 8: forward to the police were Aboriginal women.

733
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 5: Yeah.

734
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 9: Well that's the make you think, Well, you'd like to

735
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 9: think it doesn't count, but victims get judged, whether we

736
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 9: say or not. And I don't want to tarnish the

737
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 9: police that they dismissed him. I'd like to think it

738
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 9: wouldn't happen but I've got to say, in my experience,

739
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 9: I've seen things like that happen.

740
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 2: You've worked cases well, witnesses have been dismissed or not

741
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: listened to who happened to be Aboriginal. And I've reported

742
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 2: on cases murders, serial killings where Indigenous women have come forward,

743
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 2: and in fact, there was a government inquiry two years

744
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 2: ago into the murders of Indigenous women and children in

745
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:21,720
Speaker 2: this country.

746
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 9: It gave evidence that the inquiry, well, I can tell

747
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 9: you that they don't really know why it wasn't followed up.

748
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 8: By the time the case did go to trial in

749
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 8: the mid nineties, one of the two officers involved had

750
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 8: died and the other officer said that the one who

751
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,879
Speaker 8: was now dead was the one that had been left

752
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 8: to handle everything post interview, and he didn't.

753
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: Know what happened, so we can't ask him.

754
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 8: We do know Frank wasn't interviewed or even informed about

755
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 8: those allegations.

756
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 2: So that's again the court records records.

757
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, he wasn't charged. We know at the time everybody

758
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 8: of those allegations. Frank's wife also wasn't interviewed at that time.

759
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 2: Because she was a witness. According to her cousin. She

760
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 2: was in the car when Frank being beat up. When Frank,

761
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 2: So the cops have an interviewed Frank or the other witness. Okay,

762
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 2: so we can't say that those two witnesses have come

763
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 2: forward were telling the truth because Frank hasn't been convicted

764
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 2: of those offenses or charged.

765
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 5: Gary.

766
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 9: Oh, look, if you're asking you plain and simple, shouldn't

767
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 9: have been followed up? The clear answer is yes, should

768
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 9: have been followed up.

769
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 5: Yeah.

770
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,720
Speaker 2: Years later in court, Frank's lawyer would argue the women

771
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 2: had an axe to grind due to an ongoing family dispute,

772
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 2: though the women themselves denied this. Either way, nothing happened.

773
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 8: So again things go quiet at this point, and that

774
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 8: next decade is pretty similar to the decade before for Frank.

775
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 8: He's in and out of for minor crimes. He's on

776
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 8: and off with his wife.

777
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 2: So that's twenty years when Helen's family are just waiting

778
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: no answers.

779
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 8: By nineteen ninety, Frank's definitely separated from his wife and

780
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 8: is living in Tari with his teenage daughter, and he's

781
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 8: doing odd jobs for work. And that's when the next

782
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 8: thing happens that pushes Frank back into the spotlight of

783
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 8: the investigation. So that thing is a man named Gary Grimson,

784
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 8: and you may remember I told you earlier to remember

785
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 8: that name. Gary is in jail. I think he's in

786
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,320
Speaker 8: jail for break and enter. And he makes a confession.

787
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 8: He tells police that prior to Helen's murder, he went

788
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 8: to Frank's home in Londonderry with the intention of going

789
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,760
Speaker 8: with him and his brother Les to steal a car.

790
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 8: He says that before the car theft, he, Frank and

791
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 8: Frank's brother Les drove to the dog track and picked

792
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 8: up a blue green.

793
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,959
Speaker 2: FJ holden ute, as in they stop.

794
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 8: Well, he doesn't say that the statement they picked one

795
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 8: up before they.

796
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 2: Went to So this is the day when Helen goes missing.

797
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,439
Speaker 8: No, this is prior to it, prior.

798
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 2: To Helen goes missing. He says that he and Frank

799
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 2: picked up a pale blue potentially holding.

800
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 8: Blue green FJ holding ute which Frank and he drove

801
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 8: into the bush and covered with a tar poland then

802
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:28,240
Speaker 8: they went to a dance and Frank apparently went, according

803
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 8: to this statement, went outside with a blonde woman age

804
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 8: at eighteen to twenty. Gary says five minutes later he

805
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 8: heard a commotion outside and he went outside and saw

806
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,240
Speaker 8: Frank with this woman on the ground near a wall,

807
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 8: pulling at her clothes.

808
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 2: And this is all heard in court.

809
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 8: This is all heard in court and in Gary Grimson's statement,

810
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 8: so that's prior to the murder. He says that in

811
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:53,919
Speaker 8: the days after Helen was murdered, Frank's brother Les came

812
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,879
Speaker 8: to Gary and told him that police would be coming

813
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 8: to talk to him about a girl that had been killed,

814
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:01,919
Speaker 8: and if he mentioned the Holdute he said he would

815
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 8: fire bomb his parents' home. So, according to Gary, Lairs

816
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 8: is saying this to him, not Frank.

817
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 2: Again, it's worth knowing that all this evidence from Gary

818
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 2: Grimson and his statement is what he said in court

819
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 2: during Frank's committal, and it's right there in the transcript

820
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: of the hearing which was released to Nina by the

821
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 2: New South Wales Supreme Court.

822
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,720
Speaker 8: Gary then says in his statement that he was taken

823
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 8: by Frank and Lairs at gunpoint and it had a

824
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 8: twenty two caliber rifle held against him and he was

825
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 8: taken into the bush in East Curajeong where he was

826
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 8: forced to push the Holden Newt the same hold and

827
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 8: ut that they had taken and put in the bush

828
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 8: into the Hawksbury River, and Frank told Gary, according to

829
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 8: a statement, that he was now involved in a murder,

830
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 8: and when Gary says which murder, Frank apparently replied, the

831
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,760
Speaker 8: girl I knocked. He then tells him that he followed

832
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,439
Speaker 8: Helen home from work on her bike, grabbed her, drove

833
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 8: her into the bush, raped her, and buried her in

834
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,720
Speaker 8: that location where they were standing. Gary says that Frank

835
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 8: also showed him a pair of blue underwear that belonged

836
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 8: to Helen, so in the end, Frank lets him go.

837
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 2: We've tried to speak to Frank and to Les about this.

838
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 2: We've written to Frank and driven hours to reach an

839
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 2: empty property registered in Les's name. He wasn't there, and

840
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 2: we've passed messages to both men through their sister and

841
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 2: been told they don't want to talk.

842
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 9: What year was this that Gary provided this information?

843
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 8: Nineteen ninety and he claims that he had waited so

844
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 8: long to tell the truth because he was afraid of Frank.

845
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,760
Speaker 8: So again he's talking about things that happened in nineteen

846
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 8: sixty eight. It's nineteen ninety at this point, So that's

847
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 8: a big accusation right.

848
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 5: There.

849
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 8: Are some issues with that statement, and all of those

850
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 8: issues will be later raised in court.

851
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 2: So all of this evidence is heard in court and

852
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 2: it's interrogated.

853
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 8: I mean the first issue that comes up again and

854
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 8: again Gary I mentioned, is in jail when he makes

855
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 8: that statement. Yeah, he's an informant and he's.

856
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 9: About what they're not looked at very reliable, and there's

857
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:24,439
Speaker 9: some professional ones in.

858
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 2: The professional informant.

859
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 9: Don't trust anything they say because.

860
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 2: They're trying to get something in return for informant. Yeah.

861
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, And at this point when he makes this statement,

862
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 8: he's about to be moved to another prison. He doesn't

863
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 8: want to be transferred because he says he has enemies

864
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 8: at the other prison, and a court heard that as

865
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 8: a result of him giving this information, he avoids that transfer.

866
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 2: Okay, so he does get something that does get.

867
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 8: So this all becomes a bit of an issue in court.

868
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 8: The other thing that gets brought up was that Gary

869
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,839
Speaker 8: was interviewed by police in nineteen sixty eight. Didn't say

870
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 8: any of this at the time.

871
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 2: But he's of explained that before being asked the question,

872
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 2: because he said, Frank said, if you say anything on

873
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:05,879
Speaker 2: fire bomb your and.

874
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 8: What his response to that in court was that he's

875
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 8: been afraid of Frank for twenty years. The other issues

876
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 8: that's brought up is that the other friends that Gary

877
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 8: mentioned as potentially knowing about the crime, they'd also been

878
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 8: interviewed by police back in nineteen sixty eight, sixty nine

879
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 8: and they hadn't mentioned any of this. And then number

880
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 8: four was kind of the most damning one for the prosecution,

881
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 8: which was his statement said that he went to Frank's

882
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 8: house in Londonderry. Frank didn't live in Londonderry. He lived

883
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 8: in Kingswood, which is really close by, but it's not

884
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 8: the same suburb. So, I mean, the police are three

885
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 8: witnesses at that point claiming that Frank had confessed to them.

886
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 9: And if they are looking at and I'm not sure

887
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 9: if it came out in the court, are they independent

888
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 9: of each other? So they're not.

889
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 2: No, two of two of them aren't because they're related

890
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 2: to Frank's right wife and.

891
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 8: They went to the police at the same time place

892
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 8: at the same times.

893
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 2: But Gary is potentially independent.

894
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 9: You'd look at that.

895
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 8: So they had three witnesses claiming that Frank had confessed.

896
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 8: They reinterviewed the relatives and the police were pretty confident,

897
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,879
Speaker 8: and they made the arrest of Frank in nineteen ninety.

898
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:13,959
Speaker 2: So they do arrest Frank, and they do charge him.

899
00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 8: It gets delayed because Frank's lawyers immediately apply for a

900
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,879
Speaker 8: permanent stay. You can probably explain what that is better

901
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 8: than me.

902
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 2: That's just where they stop charging him with murder.

903
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 8: Yeah, please don't do the trial, right, Okay, Well, on

904
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 8: the basis that there'd been an extreme delay on the

905
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 8: part of the prosecuting authorities in taking proceedings against Frank.

906
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 2: That's interesting. The reason the defense are saying don't charge

907
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: Frank with murder is they're saying the prosecution took so

908
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 2: long to do its job and there.

909
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 8: Was an incurable prejudice which would make a fair trial impossible.

910
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 2: So that's their argument, is that it's impossible for Frank

911
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 2: to mount a defense because so much time has gone

912
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 2: past that he might not be able to find the witnesses.

913
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 8: They might have died, and those allegations there weren't put

914
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 8: to him in nineteen seventies.

915
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 2: And all of that.

916
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 9: I can hear that argument.

917
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can hear that. But if they had interviewed

918
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 2: Frank's brother, who Frank said was in the car with

919
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 2: him at the time, in the weeks after the murder happened,

920
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,279
Speaker 2: then you might not end up in nineteen ninety one

921
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 2: saying this thing has been delayed for so long it

922
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 2: can't go ahead.

923
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 8: And there's also mention of records and evidence being lost

924
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 8: or destroyed. I don't know what that is precisely. So

925
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 8: in nineteen ninety three the case did go ahead. So

926
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 8: Frank's mother had.

927
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:45,720
Speaker 2: Died, so that's his alibi witness.

928
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 8: Yeah, Frank's wife died in November of nineteen ninety one,

929
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 8: so she couldn't testify at the trial. Are the witnesses

930
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:55,760
Speaker 8: who hadn't been interviewed at the time of Helen's murder

931
00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 8: now didn't have any recollection of things others like Frank's.

932
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 2: Less Garry is frowning, and your frown is getting deeper

933
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 2: and deeper as this goes on.

934
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 8: And I've got to finish this sentence because you're going

935
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 8: to found more evidence was missing. And the two women

936
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:16,839
Speaker 8: who went to the police, the relatives of Katrina, what

937
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 8: I got from the records, and this is a bit

938
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 8: of interpretation, was that they had some trouble on the stand.

939
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 8: There was a reference in the court records to them

940
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,720
Speaker 8: having memory issues and the defense having issues with cross

941
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 8: examination and being able to do it properly because of

942
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 8: those memory issues. So it sounds like they didn't do

943
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 8: that well in court.

944
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 9: No, and I've got to be fair, it's a weak

945
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 9: case at the start of it. And then if those

946
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 9: issues that you're saying arose at court, I could see

947
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 9: it going against the frustrating parties that the police investigation

948
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 9: is the thing that used against the prosecution.

949
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, Frank's lawyer said that the two women who went

950
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 8: to the police were potentially out to get Frank. So

951
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 8: that trial ends the jury can't come to a verdict.

952
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 8: A second trial is held in nineteen ninety five and

953
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,840
Speaker 8: Frank was eventually found not guilty of Helen's murder. Right

954
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 8: so to date, Helen's murder remains.

955
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:19,720
Speaker 2: Unsolved, meaning nobody has been brought to justice decades later,

956
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 2: and Helen's parents died without getting any answers except that

957
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 2: Frank Abbott, as you heard in the prison calls at

958
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 2: the start of this episode, he denies any involvement Helen's

959
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,759
Speaker 2: brother Peter, who I visited at his house and who

960
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:43,760
Speaker 2: stood beside his bicycle waving sadly when I left him.

961
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 2: Peter also has had no answers about what happened to

962
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:53,240
Speaker 2: his sister, and he fears he may never get them,

963
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 2: although I think he still hopes that one day he

964
00:55:58,080 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 2: might do.

965
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 9: If you had fresh and compelling evidence, now under the

966
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 9: double jeopardy legislation, you could have him really tried.

967
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 8: But could you, even though it's gone through two trials. Yeah,

968
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:09,280
Speaker 8: that's interesting.

969
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 2: It's interesting partly because Gary knows what he's talking about.

970
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 2: As a detective, Gary tried to take a man who'd

971
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:24,360
Speaker 2: previously been found not guilty back to court for murder,

972
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:29,720
Speaker 2: arguing there was now new evidence against him. That story

973
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 2: is a whole other podcast. What matters is that it

974
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 2: proved it could happen. That could be done. Though Gary

975
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 2: is the only cop to date who's tried.

976
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 9: It, it's going to be fresh and compelling evidence.

977
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 8: What would count is that DNA.

978
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 9: If let's say Frank was arrested for something and found

979
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 9: the watch in DNA, which wasn't the viiable at the time,

980
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 9: DNA approves that was Helen's property, that would be compelling

981
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 9: and they'll be fresh.

982
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 2: Gary speaking hypothetically, at this point, there is no new

983
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:12,919
Speaker 2: DNA evidence, But if there was, then hypothetically that could

984
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 2: be fresh and compelling. So someone's been found not guilty murder,

985
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 2: they can be charged again. You need fresh and compelling evidence,

986
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 2: so fresh is something that hasn't been heard in court

987
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 2: before and compelling speak spelling. Yeah, how much do you

988
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 2: need do you think as a homicide cop to and

989
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 2: this We're not saying that Frank is guilty. He's been

990
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 2: found not guilty, but theoretically, how much do you think

991
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 2: you would need in terms of new evidence to overturn

992
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 2: and not guilty.

993
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:48,640
Speaker 9: I think my instinct of pushing this and really taking

994
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 9: it to the next level. If you got Frank confessing

995
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 9: to someone and you captured that on tape, I think

996
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 9: that would warrant an application.

997
00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 2: At the very last we don't have Frank confessing on tape,

998
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 2: but there is something.

999
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 5: M h m hm.

1000
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:28,960
Speaker 2: Hi is that Brian? Yeah, Brian Collier is one of

1001
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 2: the first people I speak to in John's River, the

1002
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 2: little town where Frank once lived and where we were

1003
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 2: in the last episode. Brian, my name is Dan Box.

1004
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 5: Frank.

1005
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly that.

1006
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 5: Yes, Frank, I knew it well, Frank. It was very

1007
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:51,919
Speaker 5: very handy A doing things he could.

1008
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 6: He could like electrician, plumber, anything and the favorite of

1009
00:58:56,200 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 6: work at my face. But he was a blake you

1010
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 6: couldn't trust if there was kids around.

1011
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 2: What makes you say that?

1012
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 6: Well, me granddaughter when Vowel living here. According it was

1013
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,959
Speaker 6: just getting starting to get dark, and she was walking

1014
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 6: up straight coming out.

1015
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 5: He was coming the other way and he'd go behind

1016
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 5: my car. Yeah, what do you do? I said, I

1017
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 5: just kind of scare her. I thought, yeah, it'd been

1018
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 5: more than that.

1019
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 2: What makes you said it would have been more than that?

1020
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 5: Well?

1021
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 6: He virtually admitted to me that he did kill that

1022
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 6: girl that after Windsor.

1023
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 2: Helen Harrison was last seen about a ten minute drive

1024
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 2: from Windsor.

1025
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 5: I fink she's at fourteen.

1026
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 2: She was seventeen, not fourteen.

1027
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 6: He went to court for that, but the Jerry on

1028
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:49,959
Speaker 6: three occasions, I think it was.

1029
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,919
Speaker 2: And there were only two trials, not three of them.

1030
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 5: They couldn't reach a verdict.

1031
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 2: But I've spoken to Brian on a couple of occasions

1032
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 2: now about this, and I'm sure it's Helen he's talking about.

1033
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 2: I think it was Helen Harrison.

1034
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, I can't remember the name, but I know he

1035
01:00:10,120 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 6: because frankly used he was an alcoholic apparently, but he

1036
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 6: stopped drinking and he was he was, Mamie Lords, actually

1037
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:22,720
Speaker 6: is a stinking hot day. And I told him in

1038
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 6: the having a couple of beers, and he started loosen

1039
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 6: up a bit and he and he mostly admitted to

1040
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:34,640
Speaker 6: me that he did kill her.

1041
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 5: The shadow up.

1042
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 2: What did he what did he say?

1043
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:41,960
Speaker 6: Well, he did have sex with her, and then he

1044
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 6: was she was going to tell on him, so he there.

1045
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 2: And so what did he say he did, Well.

1046
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 6: He was around about way the way had come out,

1047
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 6: and then he just cleaned up then because I think

1048
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 6: he realized he said.

1049
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 5: A fair bit.

1050
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 2: Can you remember what words he used?

1051
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 6: I'm but I think he did say that he had

1052
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 6: he had sex with her a few times, okay, and

1053
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 6: he was she was riding a pushbike I think it was,

1054
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 6: I think she said at the time, and and he

1055
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 6: picked her up and through I think he said he

1056
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 6: had a ute.

1057
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 2: And what did he say he did with the pushbike?

1058
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 6: I think he did damp it.

1059
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:31,000
Speaker 2: So he picked her up with her bike maybe put

1060
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 2: the bike in the back of the ute apparently, And

1061
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 2: then did you tell you what happened next?

1062
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 5: That now he cleaned up, okay.

1063
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 2: And what did you think when you heard him say that?

1064
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 6: Well, nothing he could do because he had three trials

1065
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 6: and they well, they couldn't try him again. So yeah,

1066
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 6: that's why I was. I was very careful with Frank.

1067
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 6: He was He often used to wander around John's River.

1068
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 6: I heard early ails of the morning and he wasn't

1069
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 6: very well liked over.

1070
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 2: And did the police ever talk to you about what

1071
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:10,919
Speaker 2: he said about this young girl?

1072
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:13,080
Speaker 5: Nah?

1073
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:16,120
Speaker 6: Well, I didn't say think about it because he had

1074
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 6: free trials, so that was it. They couldn't roy arrestling

1075
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 6: after that.

1076
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 2: Brian is right about that point. At the time Frank

1077
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 2: was found not guilty of Helen's murder, the law said

1078
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 2: you couldn't be put on trial again for the same crime.

1079
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 2: So at that time the police could not rearrest Frank,

1080
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:43,439
Speaker 2: even if Brian had come forward. But the law has

1081
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 2: been changed since. That's what Gary Jubilin was talking about.

1082
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 2: If you have fresh and compelling evidence, they can do

1083
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 2: if they have new evidence, so something they hadn't heard before.

1084
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 5: Now thought I didn't think they could roy arrest.

1085
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 2: How would you describe Frank?

1086
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:07,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, don't know.

1087
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:09,280
Speaker 5: I got on good with him in one way.

1088
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:13,640
Speaker 6: But I was careful of him also because see, look

1089
01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 6: he was a bit of a day with kids, So I.

1090
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 2: Know that you'd heard that from other people or no.

1091
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 6: My grandson was another girl here she was for then

1092
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 6: Frank try to grab her.

1093
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 2: Did he ever talk about any other you know, any

1094
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 2: other crimes he might have committed anything like that.

1095
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 6: Nah, No, there was just luck. I think that the

1096
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 6: things he said to me about the girl at winter

1097
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:47,479
Speaker 6: and then he shut up pretty quick.

1098
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 2: Frank did not completely shut up. In fact, he's allegedly

1099
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 2: been telling other people similar stories. At the inquest into

1100
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:04,080
Speaker 2: will Tull's disappearance, there was another witness who can't be identified,

1101
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 2: who was asked if Frank Abbott ever told him about

1102
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 2: a murder back in nineteen sixty eight, the year Helen

1103
01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 2: Harrison went missing and died. This witness gave evidence saying

1104
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 2: Frank told him quote borrowed his car, raped a girl

1105
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 2: and she had an electic fit and died. The same

1106
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:29,640
Speaker 2: witness later said the same thing in a TV interview

1107
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 2: broadcast by seven News.

1108
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:33,439
Speaker 7: And he told me he was charged with the murder

1109
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 7: over that.

1110
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 2: This witness has since died, so we can't ask him

1111
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:44,440
Speaker 2: any questions. But here's the key thing. Listening back to

1112
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 2: what he says and what Brian Collier told me, I

1113
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 2: realized neither of them is actually saying Frank told them

1114
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 2: he murdered Helen. Brian claims Frank virtually admitted that he killed.

1115
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 5: Her, and he mostly matter to me that he did

1116
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:05,440
Speaker 5: kill and the shadow up.

1117
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:11,400
Speaker 2: But that's Brian's opinion, and actually Frank doesn't say that.

1118
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 2: In Brian's version, Frank says only that he had sex

1119
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:16,520
Speaker 2: with Helen.

1120
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 5: Well, he did have sex, brother.

1121
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:21,840
Speaker 2: Frank doesn't say anything else.

1122
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 6: He just claimed that then because I think he realized

1123
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 6: he said a fair bit.

1124
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 2: And the unidentified witness at the inquest his evidence is

1125
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 2: not that Frank killed Helen, just that Frank told him

1126
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:40,480
Speaker 2: a couple of blokes borrowed his car, raped a girl

1127
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 2: and she had an epileptic fit and died. So this

1128
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 2: new evidence is only that at most Frank did have

1129
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:55,840
Speaker 2: sex with Helen. Not sure what to make of this.

1130
01:05:56,280 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 2: Nina and I keep on talking to people, speaking to

1131
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 2: people who know Frank Abbot.

1132
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 7: Hello, Dora speaking Hide.

1133
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 2: My name is Dan Box. I'm sorry to call you

1134
01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 2: about the Blue his friends and family. I'm a reporter

1135
01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 2: and I'm trying to get in touch with the daughter

1136
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 2: of a man called David Abbott. That is you, oh

1137
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:36,200
Speaker 2: fucking hell, including this woman who is Frank's niece, the

1138
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:41,720
Speaker 2: daughter of one of Frank's few surviving brothers. It was

1139
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:44,280
Speaker 2: specifically to do with with his brother.

1140
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:51,680
Speaker 3: Ah, where do you start anyway?

1141
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:52,440
Speaker 7: What would your love to?

1142
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:52,720
Speaker 3: Now?

1143
01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:55,280
Speaker 2: What can you tell me about Frank?

1144
01:06:57,680 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 5: Creepy?

1145
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:00,960
Speaker 3: But he never touched me, He never did anything to

1146
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:04,600
Speaker 3: me that I know of. Bo can remember he was

1147
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 3: in Windsor. This is another thing. My father told me

1148
01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:10,040
Speaker 3: he's a kid, which I was waiting for the police

1149
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 3: to do more interviews, and I've tried to tell Queensland Police.

1150
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 3: But years ago, down in Penrith, Windsor area, there was

1151
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 3: a young girl.

1152
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 5: This is going back years and years.

1153
01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 3: There was a young girl. They found her dead and

1154
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 3: she had a pushbike ye and she wrote out and

1155
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 3: they found her in the scrub years ago when I

1156
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 3: was a kid. My father, now, I don't know why

1157
01:07:36,960 --> 01:07:40,640
Speaker 3: he would tell me this, but he told me that

1158
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 3: his brothers took her out into the scrub and they

1159
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:46,160
Speaker 3: all had sex with her and that she ended up dead.

1160
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:51,440
Speaker 3: But no one knows how And I've been trying to

1161
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 3: get that looked into because if he dies, no one's

1162
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:56,919
Speaker 3: ever going to know the full story, Like why would

1163
01:07:56,960 --> 01:07:57,760
Speaker 3: you tell your kid that?

1164
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:00,680
Speaker 2: And you've told police this.

1165
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:04,240
Speaker 3: Well, I've tried to Yeah, yes.

1166
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 2: Police in New South Wales or queen.

1167
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:08,439
Speaker 3: No police in Queensland. When I've said, oh, yeah, there's

1168
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:10,280
Speaker 3: some girl on a bike years ago, and.

1169
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:12,840
Speaker 2: You know.

1170
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:18,760
Speaker 3: It was back in the nineteen sixties. I think I

1171
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:20,960
Speaker 3: think she was only sixteen or seventeen.

1172
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 7: Frank was tried, Yes, he was, that's the one.

1173
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:26,840
Speaker 3: Yes, they tried to get him for it.

1174
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:29,759
Speaker 2: It was the murder of a girl called Helen Harrison.

1175
01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:30,800
Speaker 5: That's it.

1176
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:31,559
Speaker 7: That's her name.

1177
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:32,599
Speaker 3: That's the name.

1178
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:36,040
Speaker 2: And I think it might be quite important that we

1179
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:37,560
Speaker 2: look at that because.

1180
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:41,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, because my father, I can just see where I

1181
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:44,920
Speaker 3: am right now in the shed within there telling me

1182
01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:48,519
Speaker 3: this story of this young girl that they picked up

1183
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 3: who was on a push bike. They put the bike

1184
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:54,559
Speaker 3: in the back of the you and they his brothers

1185
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:57,360
Speaker 3: took her out the bush and yeah, all had sex

1186
01:08:57,400 --> 01:08:58,360
Speaker 3: with her.

1187
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 2: Day's memory is that her father, David told her that

1188
01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 2: his brothers picked up a young girl with a pushbike

1189
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:10,800
Speaker 2: and had sex with her and that she ended up dead,

1190
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:15,559
Speaker 2: but no one knows how. I've seen a version of

1191
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 2: that same allegation included in a witness statement Day gave

1192
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:24,519
Speaker 2: to the police in November twenty twenty two. That statement

1193
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:29,839
Speaker 2: describes Frank's brother David, showing off Playboy magazines and talking

1194
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:34,839
Speaker 2: about the girl that went missing, but again not talking

1195
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 2: about murder. We try talking to David Abbott about Helen.

1196
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:54,240
Speaker 2: I did want to ask you about the murder of

1197
01:09:54,280 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 2: Helen Brothers someone he doesn't want to talk. Hello, Hi,

1198
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:14,680
Speaker 2: my name's Dan Box. Instead, I speak to some of

1199
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:18,519
Speaker 2: those who were involved in Frank's trials over Helen's murder,

1200
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:22,840
Speaker 2: and they say one thing that really stood out is

1201
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 2: that no one knew the actual cause of Helen's death.

1202
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:30,960
Speaker 2: They couldn't work it out during the autopsy or on

1203
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:36,400
Speaker 2: the evidence she was found with, which was strange. But

1204
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:40,639
Speaker 2: because Helen's body was found buried in a shallow grave,

1205
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:46,920
Speaker 2: everyone just thought that she'd been murdered. I speak to

1206
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 2: Frank Abbot's sister, Elaine Harding, who will be eighty seven

1207
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 2: this year, but remembers Helen's disappearance almost sixty years ago. Now,

1208
01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:00,000
Speaker 2: Elaine doesn't want to be recorded, so I make sure

1209
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:04,400
Speaker 2: hand notes of our conversation. She says Frank would buy

1210
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:08,439
Speaker 2: lunch from the local store in Pitttown that Helen worked at.

1211
01:11:09,479 --> 01:11:13,479
Speaker 2: She says Frank always used to chat to Helen. When

1212
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 2: I asked Elaine to describe her brother, she says Frank

1213
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 2: was a thief, that he could pick the eye out

1214
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:24,000
Speaker 2: of a needle, but she never knew him to hurt

1215
01:11:24,120 --> 01:11:28,960
Speaker 2: a child or a woman. Elaine says she does remember

1216
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:33,720
Speaker 2: her brother's saying something about a car and telling her

1217
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:36,799
Speaker 2: the police were trying to pin Helen's murder on Frank,

1218
01:11:37,840 --> 01:11:41,200
Speaker 2: just like they did with William Tyrell's disappearance, she says,

1219
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 2: and Frank has told her that that is definitely not true. Later,

1220
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:52,720
Speaker 2: reading back over my shorthand notes of our conversation, I

1221
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:57,519
Speaker 2: stopped looking at something Elaine said about Helen when talking

1222
01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 2: about how Frank would chat to her while buying, she said,

1223
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:05,439
Speaker 2: I don't know if she was an epileptic or something,

1224
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 2: meaning if Helen was epileptic. I didn't mention epilepsy, but

1225
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 2: she's the second person now to do so, after the

1226
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:19,559
Speaker 2: witness at the inquest into William's disappearance, who says Frank

1227
01:12:19,640 --> 01:12:20,360
Speaker 2: told him.

1228
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:22,479
Speaker 7: Apparently she had an eteleptic fit and died.

1229
01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:28,040
Speaker 2: Nina, who's the producer on this podcast, spends weeks going

1230
01:12:28,080 --> 01:12:30,679
Speaker 2: back and forth with the New South Wales Supreme Court

1231
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:33,800
Speaker 2: trying to get access to the thirty year old court

1232
01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 2: records of Frank's prosecution over Helen's murder. Nina then spends

1233
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:43,360
Speaker 2: two days reading through these yellowing pages and finds a

1234
01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:47,880
Speaker 2: page of transcript from Frank's committal hearing where Helen's old

1235
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:51,040
Speaker 2: boss at the store says in court that she was

1236
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:52,840
Speaker 2: taking epilepsy tablets.

1237
01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:59,280
Speaker 7: Well, I remember being surprised when I first heard about it.

1238
01:13:00,520 --> 01:13:03,960
Speaker 2: I call Helen's brother Peter and ask him if Helen

1239
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 2: was epileptic.

1240
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:10,719
Speaker 7: Waiting just a child. I wasn't aware she had anything

1241
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:11,240
Speaker 7: like that.

1242
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:15,080
Speaker 2: He says he was only fourteen or fifteen when his

1243
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:18,719
Speaker 2: sister first went missing, and he didn't know anything about

1244
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:23,040
Speaker 2: epilepsy until after Helen's body was recovered and.

1245
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:31,240
Speaker 7: During the police investigations. Okay, later on, I think I

1246
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 7: just heard mark parents discussing it. Yeah, brought color because

1247
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:48,640
Speaker 7: my personal reaction was I just thought, in a shock situation,

1248
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 7: maybe that's how she died.

1249
01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:54,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just.

1250
01:13:54,160 --> 01:14:00,520
Speaker 7: My went through my mind. If she had a sickness.

1251
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:07,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, Helen being epileptic could explain why no one at

1252
01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:14,520
Speaker 2: Frank's trial knew how she died. I call a forensic pathologist,

1253
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:19,160
Speaker 2: someone who's done thousands of different autopsies, and who tells

1254
01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:23,160
Speaker 2: me that if someone died with epilepsy and their body

1255
01:14:23,280 --> 01:14:27,800
Speaker 2: was not discovered for a week like Helen's, that fact

1256
01:14:28,200 --> 01:14:31,960
Speaker 2: wouldn't be something you could see during an autopsy conducted

1257
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty eight, and maybe not something you could

1258
01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:41,479
Speaker 2: see even with today's technology. Meaning I don't think you

1259
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:47,400
Speaker 2: can say for sure that Helen was murdered. I keep

1260
01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:51,320
Speaker 2: talking to her brother Peter, telling him about the people

1261
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:56,280
Speaker 2: we've spoken to about this, like Brian Collier in John's River.

1262
01:14:56,920 --> 01:14:59,519
Speaker 2: This one guy who said that he'd spoken to Frank

1263
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:02,600
Speaker 2: and Frank had said that maybe he was involved. And

1264
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:08,840
Speaker 2: this woman, so she's Frank's niece, and she told me

1265
01:15:09,479 --> 01:15:13,240
Speaker 2: and Frank's sister is a woman called Elaine, and she

1266
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 2: says she doesn't think Frank was involved, but she does

1267
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:24,280
Speaker 2: remember her brothers at the time talking about what happened

1268
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:29,880
Speaker 2: to your sister. And the witness at the inquest who

1269
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:33,719
Speaker 2: said Frank told him about a girl who was raped

1270
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 2: and had an epileptic fit and died because Helen's death

1271
01:15:38,479 --> 01:15:41,960
Speaker 2: came up at the inquest into William's disappearance. So I

1272
01:15:42,040 --> 01:15:46,759
Speaker 2: tell Peter I can't prove anything, and that doesn't change

1273
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:49,400
Speaker 2: the fact that what happened to her was awful and

1274
01:15:49,439 --> 01:15:53,200
Speaker 2: should never have happened, and that the people involved shouldn't

1275
01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:55,400
Speaker 2: have been brought to justice. It doesn't change any of that.

1276
01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:02,599
Speaker 2: Even if Helen died from epileps whoever was there didn't

1277
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:09,240
Speaker 2: call for help or for an ambulance. Instead, they buried her.

1278
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 2: And there are now three more people. On top of

1279
01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:17,520
Speaker 2: those who gave evidence at Frank's trial in the nineteen nineties,

1280
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:21,479
Speaker 2: there are now the two I've spoken to, Frank's niece

1281
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:25,920
Speaker 2: and Brian Collier, as well as the unidentified witness at

1282
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:32,000
Speaker 2: the inquest into William Tyrrell's disappearance. I asked Peter if

1283
01:16:32,040 --> 01:16:36,960
Speaker 2: he's heard anything from the police or the coroner since

1284
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:44,479
Speaker 2: that evidence about his sister came up at the inquest, nah,

1285
01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:49,240
Speaker 2: which I find shocking that the cops and the coroner

1286
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:52,799
Speaker 2: would not want to contact Helen's family.

1287
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:57,160
Speaker 7: I've just been just last night thinking a lot but

1288
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:02,880
Speaker 7: the stage in my life and trying to recall the

1289
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:06,000
Speaker 7: rest of where a laws were up to, you know,

1290
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:10,080
Speaker 7: to jog my memory about things. Yeah, it's still just

1291
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:14,080
Speaker 7: unsolved and should be got nowhere with the whole thing.

1292
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:21,040
Speaker 2: And I guess you'd like that to change, yes, hm, hm,

1293
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:38,360
Speaker 2: to change things. Peter knows that the police and the

1294
01:17:38,400 --> 01:17:44,320
Speaker 2: courts can only act on evidence, but he also expects

1295
01:17:44,520 --> 01:17:50,559
Speaker 2: that when they do have evidence, they do act. So

1296
01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 2: Peter's surprised to hear about the other evidence we've found

1297
01:17:55,720 --> 01:18:00,439
Speaker 2: about Frank Abbott, evidence that was tendered at the quest

1298
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:07,680
Speaker 2: into William Tyrol's disappearance, including a witness statement that nobody

1299
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:12,439
Speaker 2: has mentioned to Peter and which Nina and I find

1300
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:18,000
Speaker 2: among the stack of exhibits released only after the inquest

1301
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:25,040
Speaker 2: hearings ended. Reading through that witness statement, we discover it

1302
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:32,519
Speaker 2: links Frank to another cold case. In fact, it links

1303
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:34,479
Speaker 2: Frank to two more.

1304
01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:45,800
Speaker 3: They were gouge Max like that someone had gouged.

1305
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:47,320
Speaker 7: Skin it.

1306
01:18:49,360 --> 01:18:59,120
Speaker 2: That's next time on Witness William Tyrol. A lot of

1307
01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:02,840
Speaker 2: different people have been involved in making this series. Among them,

1308
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:06,360
Speaker 2: the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound design was

1309
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:11,719
Speaker 2: by Tiffany Dimack. The producers have been Emily Pigeon, Nicholas Adams, Jazzbar,

1310
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:16,919
Speaker 2: phoebe Zakowski Wallace and Tabby Wilson. Research by Adan Patrick,

1311
01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:21,320
Speaker 2: original music by Rory O'Connor. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs.

1312
01:19:21,880 --> 01:19:25,080
Speaker 2: The editor at news dot com dot Au is Kerry Warren.

1313
01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:26,679
Speaker 2: I'm Dan Box