WEBVTT - Read This: Eric Beecher Is a Media Mongrel

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<v Speaker 1>Hey there, it's Ruby Jones. Every week our colleagues Read

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<v Speaker 1>This invite some of the best writers from Australia and

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<v Speaker 1>around the world to discuss their lives and work. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to hear a conversation with journalist, editor, and

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<v Speaker 1>media proprietor Eric Beecher. Eric is a media veteran, having

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<v Speaker 1>been in the business for almost half a century, and

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<v Speaker 1>he's just released his first book titled The Men Who

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<v Speaker 1>Killed the News. In it, Eric reveals the distorted role

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<v Speaker 1>of the media moguls of the last two centuries, from

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<v Speaker 1>William Randolph Hurst to Rupert Murdoch. Michael Williams is the

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<v Speaker 1>host of Read This and he's with me now. Hi Michael.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi, Ruby, Michael.

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<v Speaker 1>I believe that you've known Eric for quite some time,

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<v Speaker 1>So tell me how did your paths first cross and

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<v Speaker 1>what did you learn from working with him?

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<v Speaker 2>Eric was kind of biproxy in my boss twice. Early

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<v Speaker 2>in my career, I came out of Union. I worked

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<v Speaker 2>at Text Publishing, the Melbourne independent publishing house, but it

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<v Speaker 2>was while an independent house, it was part of a

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<v Speaker 2>bigger media company called Text Media that was founded by

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<v Speaker 2>Eric Beecher and his then business partner Diagribbel. So Eric

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<v Speaker 2>was this kind of shadowy figure who only when we

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<v Speaker 2>had big meetings about kind of corporate stability, Eric would

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<v Speaker 2>appear and it has a bit intimidating, But the thing

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<v Speaker 2>I remember about meeting him in those early days was

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<v Speaker 2>that he was passionate about the books part of the

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<v Speaker 2>media company that he was founding. It wasn't an optional extra,

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<v Speaker 2>it was important. There. Many years later, when I became

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<v Speaker 2>director of Melbourne'sheeler Senda, Eric was the chair of the

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<v Speaker 2>board and so he was far more directly my boss

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<v Speaker 2>and I got to work closely with him, and the

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<v Speaker 2>thing that he impressed upon me very early on was

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<v Speaker 2>that he was that very old fashioned idea, a newspaperman

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<v Speaker 2>through and through. He cared about the ways in which

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<v Speaker 2>we tell stories, the ways in which the news builds,

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<v Speaker 2>the kind of society we want to be, and the

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<v Speaker 2>ways in which quality journalism needed to be protected.

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<v Speaker 1>And in the manner who killed the news, he takes

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<v Speaker 1>aim at some of the world's most influential and consequential

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<v Speaker 1>media owners. Can you talk to me a bit about

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<v Speaker 1>why it is that this book feels so relevant right now?

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<v Speaker 2>Seven AM listeners may have come across Eric before and

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<v Speaker 2>most recently, when the media company he now runs, Private Media,

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<v Speaker 2>were threatened with a lawsuit by Lachlan Murdoch over a

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<v Speaker 2>peace published in Kriche and they may have followed that

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<v Speaker 2>story and that response. It was kind of vintage Eric.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a little bit of a shit stir, but

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<v Speaker 2>it was also about defending the principles of the thing,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. And let's face it, there are so many

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<v Speaker 2>threats to quality journalism. Not everyone gets to have Ruby

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<v Speaker 2>Jones in their life five days a week, or a

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<v Speaker 2>combination of Ruby Jones and Daniel James, you know, seven am.

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<v Speaker 2>These people are the lucky few. But the media options

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<v Speaker 2>are diminishing, and they're diminishing all the time. And Eric

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<v Speaker 2>does this incredible forensic job of putting that in a context,

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<v Speaker 2>a context where influence and money have distorted the ways

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<v Speaker 2>in which we get the news.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up in just a moment. Eric Beecher is a

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<v Speaker 1>media mongrel.

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<v Speaker 2>I love a newspaper in addition to my deep obsessiveness

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<v Speaker 2>about books. I am a compulsive consumer of news in

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<v Speaker 2>all its forms. But there are a few more purely

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<v Speaker 2>pleasurable ways to enjoy the news that on the holidays,

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<v Speaker 2>coffee brewing papers strewn across the table, with people passing

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<v Speaker 2>supplements and sections across to one another. There are online equivalents,

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<v Speaker 2>but there's something about that old fashioned way of catching

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<v Speaker 2>up with the world that remains very special. But the

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<v Speaker 2>business of news, we are told, is in crisis. I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's declared dead even more often than the book is.

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<v Speaker 2>There are challenges of advertising, challenges of revenue, and a

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<v Speaker 2>decline in consumption and a decline in trust. It's a problem.

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<v Speaker 2>If news dies, then our society suffers. Eric Beecher is

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<v Speaker 2>a newsman. It's what is devoted the better part of

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<v Speaker 2>his life and career two as a journalist. His work

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<v Speaker 2>for some of the most well respected newspapers in the world,

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<v Speaker 2>and as his career has progressed, Eric has climbed the

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<v Speaker 2>media ladder. He's currently a media proprietor, head of Private Media,

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<v Speaker 2>which runs the website criche. Amongst the many achievements of

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<v Speaker 2>Eric Beach's career in the media, there are few key

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<v Speaker 2>moments that stand out. In nineteen eighty four, he became

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<v Speaker 2>the youngest ever editor of the City Morning Herald. He

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<v Speaker 2>was just thirty three at the time, with Digribbel. He

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<v Speaker 2>built text media into a major player, and in two

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<v Speaker 2>thousand and seven he received a Walkley Award for Journalistic Leadership.

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<v Speaker 2>Later he also became chair of the Wheeler Center in

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<v Speaker 2>Melbourne when I was its director. And the thing that

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<v Speaker 2>I've always so admired about Eric getting to work alongside

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<v Speaker 2>him is the ways in which he's such a fierce

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<v Speaker 2>advocate for independent, fearless mets. It's a passion that played

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<v Speaker 2>out more recently in twenty twenty two when Lachlan Murdock

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<v Speaker 2>leveled a high profiled defamation lawsuit in his direction. While

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<v Speaker 2>the case ended up being withdrawn, it was just the

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<v Speaker 2>motivation Eric needed to finish the book he's been quietly

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<v Speaker 2>working on for years. That book was called The Men

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<v Speaker 2>Who Killed the News, and in it Eric reveals the

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<v Speaker 2>distorted role of media moguls over the past two centuries,

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<v Speaker 2>from Conrad Black and William Randolph Hurst to Rupert Murdoch

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<v Speaker 2>and Elon Musk. The book explores how these men have

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<v Speaker 2>abused their power to increase their wealth while undermining journalism

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<v Speaker 2>and truth at a huge cost to our politics and

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<v Speaker 2>our society. It might sound like a book that has

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<v Speaker 2>the potential to be dry, but Eric Beecher knows how

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<v Speaker 2>to spin a story. At its opening, it has the

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<v Speaker 2>feel of one of those Russian classics, a cast of

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<v Speaker 2>characters in the front, introducing us to the colorful moguls

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<v Speaker 2>good and bad who are going to populate its pages.

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<v Speaker 2>And then it pivots. It becomes a crime story as

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<v Speaker 2>we bear witness to the ways in which the world

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<v Speaker 2>of news is slowly deliberately being killed. It's a political

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<v Speaker 2>thriller that asks the kind of society we want to

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<v Speaker 2>belong to. And it's a love story because one thing

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<v Speaker 2>is crystal clear. Eric Beecher loves news and loves the

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<v Speaker 2>disappearing world of serious journalism. I'm Michael Williams, and this

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<v Speaker 2>is Read. This the show about the books we love

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<v Speaker 2>and the stories behind them. There are many things in

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<v Speaker 2>The Men Who Kill the News that I love. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a fabulous bit of reading. It's a kind of sobering

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<v Speaker 2>history and also an assessment of the kind of current

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<v Speaker 2>state of newsmating and how we got here. But I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted maybe to dig into your personal history and relationship

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<v Speaker 2>with journalism. When did you first get the bug? When

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<v Speaker 2>did you first identify that journalism was a thing that

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<v Speaker 2>you might devote your life to.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I got the bug at a very early age.

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<v Speaker 3>And I have no idea where the bug came from

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<v Speaker 3>because no one in my family was a journalist. And

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<v Speaker 3>I grew up in Sydney and we got the Sydney

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<v Speaker 3>Morning Herald every morning and I saw it on the

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<v Speaker 3>breakfast table. Whether that gave me the bug, I'm not sure.

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<v Speaker 3>But you know, I edited my boy Scouts magazine, I

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<v Speaker 3>edited all the school magazines. I started a national cricket

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<v Speaker 3>magazine at the age of seventeen. I just loved it.

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<v Speaker 3>I just fell in love with it.

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<v Speaker 2>I love this story about it, not just because it

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<v Speaker 2>reveals you're a colossal merd at every level, but there

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<v Speaker 2>is something about the attitude of identifying a gap in

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<v Speaker 2>the market, and you know you're an avid cricket fan,

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<v Speaker 2>you knew what you wanted to read, identifying it wasn't there,

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<v Speaker 2>and deciding that you may as well take the responsibility

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<v Speaker 2>to fill that gap.

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<v Speaker 3>It sounds like it's some kind of special instinct or intuition.

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<v Speaker 3>Actually what it was was naivety. That's what it was.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't think it's the exact same naivity that has

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<v Speaker 2>carried you through the rest of your career, since.

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<v Speaker 3>The naivety probably developed a little bit into something a

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<v Speaker 3>little more advanced. But I look back and think, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>why would I have done that. I mean, I've had

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<v Speaker 3>so many failures in my publishing career, magazines that didn't work,

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<v Speaker 3>and ideas that didn't work, and websites that didn't work.

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<v Speaker 3>And I've had a couple of successes as well. And

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<v Speaker 3>I was a newspaper editor in my early thirties at

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<v Speaker 3>a very young age, and I don't quite know how

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<v Speaker 3>that happened, but it was great. And I mean one

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<v Speaker 3>of the most important things, or the most important thing

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<v Speaker 3>that happened to me in my life as a journalist

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<v Speaker 3>was I was a reporter on the Melbourne Age in

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<v Speaker 3>my twenties, and that's where I started in daily journalism.

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<v Speaker 3>The Age then was owned by the Fairfax Company, but

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<v Speaker 3>it had been owned by the Sime family, and there

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<v Speaker 3>was still a Sime family member was the managing director,

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<v Speaker 3>Ranald MacDonald. And I got to know Ranald, and he

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<v Speaker 3>knew because I told him many times that my interest

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<v Speaker 3>actually was in editing, not so I could be the boss,

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<v Speaker 3>but because I loved the craft of editing. And in

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<v Speaker 3>those days, most newspaper editors were people who had been

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<v Speaker 3>promoted because they were very good reporters. And to me,

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<v Speaker 3>they are different skills. They obviously overlap, but they are

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<v Speaker 3>different skills. And the Age sent me away for eighteen

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<v Speaker 3>months and put me through three very good newspapers, the

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<v Speaker 3>Sunday Times and the Observer in London, and the Washington Post.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I learned about editing and newspapers at that level,

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<v Speaker 3>and newspaper editing at that level, and journalism at that

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<v Speaker 3>level in those places. And I came back and then

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<v Speaker 3>I started a practice it here all right, Eric, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Want to level a quote in your direction. Here we go.

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<v Speaker 2>The industry is littered with self styled purists who believe

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<v Speaker 2>the business of media, the requirement to make a profit

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<v Speaker 2>somehow corrupts the craft. The self anointed media elite among

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<v Speaker 2>us believe, somewhat self servingly, that not only the act

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<v Speaker 2>or process of maintenance profit is positively sinister, but also

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<v Speaker 2>that the very desire to do so is Does that

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<v Speaker 2>describe you, Eric Beecher? Are you a self satisfied, self

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<v Speaker 2>anointed media elite.

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<v Speaker 3>I guess some people might think I am one person

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<v Speaker 3>in particular the person you're quoting. I remember that quote.

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<v Speaker 3>I have been a working journalist, an editor, a publisher,

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<v Speaker 3>and a media owner. So I'm not someone who regards

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<v Speaker 3>profitability and commercial imperatives as being unimportant. In fact, it's

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<v Speaker 3>so critical because if you're not viable, you don't exist.

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<v Speaker 3>So that goes without saying so criticism like that, I

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<v Speaker 3>think is facile at the same time, and what I've

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<v Speaker 3>tried to do with his book is to try and

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<v Speaker 3>look at the balance between the profit motive, the commercial motive,

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<v Speaker 3>and the role of proper public interest journalism in a

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<v Speaker 3>democracy and whether they can coexist. And sometimes they can,

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<v Speaker 3>and often throughout history they haven't, and that's been I

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<v Speaker 3>think a real tragedy for democracy.

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<v Speaker 2>That quote is Lachlan Murdock, in that moment, giving a

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<v Speaker 2>narration at the State Library of Victoria, was actively taking

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<v Speaker 2>issue with previous comments you've made, picking a fight with

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<v Speaker 2>you personally, and I want to get to Lachlan and

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<v Speaker 2>his family in a but before we get there, it

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<v Speaker 2>seems to me that when we talk about media again

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<v Speaker 2>and again, the thing that we talk about is whether

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<v Speaker 2>the business model is possible or whether it's irreparably broken.

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<v Speaker 2>Was there ever a time when the business model made

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<v Speaker 2>sense and didn't compromise what it did?

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely? I mean I was lucky enough to start my

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<v Speaker 3>career and live a lot of my particularly newspaper career,

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<v Speaker 3>in what I would regard as the golden age of media,

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<v Speaker 3>both business models and therefore journalism. And they were the

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<v Speaker 3>days when newspapers like the Sydney Morning Herald or the

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<v Speaker 3>Melbourne Age would produce two hundred pages of classified ads

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<v Speaker 3>every Saturday and would make millions and millions of dollars

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<v Speaker 3>of profit every Saturday from those ads. And they had owners,

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<v Speaker 3>the Fairfax family for over a century, who saw their

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<v Speaker 3>role as yes, owners and business people, but also as

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<v Speaker 3>participants in the civic life and the democratic life of

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<v Speaker 3>their country. And so they were able to get that

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<v Speaker 3>balance right. Other media moguls, through history and even up

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<v Speaker 3>to now, and especially now, in some ways don't get

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<v Speaker 3>that balance right in my view at all. All they

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<v Speaker 3>focus on is the profit motive.

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<v Speaker 2>So did that Golden Age, those kind of rivers of

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<v Speaker 2>classified advertising gold mean that it distorted our idea of

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<v Speaker 2>what people valued when it came to the news. Did

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<v Speaker 2>it mean that we never fully understood the relationship between

0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:39.800
<v Speaker 2>a civil society and its press.

0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:40.640
<v Speaker 1>Look.

0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:45.040
<v Speaker 3>I think for journalists it was a foundation stone to

0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:48.439
<v Speaker 3>enable them to do their work properly and do it independently.

0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.320
<v Speaker 3>For the consumers of news, it was a different era,

0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.600
<v Speaker 3>not just because of that business model. In fact, the

0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:59.120
<v Speaker 3>change in business model was when advertising, classified advertising and

0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:03.760
<v Speaker 3>other forms of display advertising migrated from those print newspapers

0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:07.560
<v Speaker 3>to digital and then to social media. And so what

0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:11.280
<v Speaker 3>that has meant is not only has the revenue that

0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:17.880
<v Speaker 3>supported quality journalism almost disappeared now, but it means that

0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:22.200
<v Speaker 3>the landscape for consuming news and being interested in news,

0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:27.480
<v Speaker 3>and the competition for people's time that essentially didn't exist

0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.920
<v Speaker 3>before the Internet now makes it an entirely different landscape

0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:32.440
<v Speaker 3>as well.

0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:35.760
<v Speaker 2>One of the reasons that in that lecture Lochlin Murdock

0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:38.920
<v Speaker 2>was having a gou is that two years prior you'd

0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.600
<v Speaker 2>given the andro Olli lecture, and in that you'd drawn

0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:46.240
<v Speaker 2>a kind of distinction between serious journalism and other journalism,

0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.360
<v Speaker 2>and the ways in which those lofty ideals for the

0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:51.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of newspaper that CII is like Melbourne or Sydney

0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:55.280
<v Speaker 2>should be able to sustain were compromised and we're being

0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:59.720
<v Speaker 2>consistently compromised. If it's not the business model that compromises them.

0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:04.520
<v Speaker 3>What It's a whole lot of things that have changed

0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:09.120
<v Speaker 3>in the world, I think, not least social media. I

0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:13.560
<v Speaker 3>mean social media has transformed not just the media landscape

0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:17.360
<v Speaker 3>and not just the media consumption landscape, but it's transformed

0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.880
<v Speaker 3>the way that people think about issues. And it's turned

0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:25.120
<v Speaker 3>people who would otherwise have depended on a small amount

0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:29.760
<v Speaker 3>of reliable media, it's turned them into partisans. I mean

0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.280
<v Speaker 3>everyone now has an op ed column, as it were,

0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:37.240
<v Speaker 3>and so that changes entirely the way that journalism is

0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:38.640
<v Speaker 3>consumed and thought about.

0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:41.360
<v Speaker 2>It never ceases to amaze me the ways in which

0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:44.120
<v Speaker 2>if you survey consumers of media and journalism, which I'm

0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:46.800
<v Speaker 2>sure you've done many times in your career, they'll say, oh,

0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.040
<v Speaker 2>these things are important to now, these are what I'll read.

0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.640
<v Speaker 2>But now, in the age of the Internet, when we

0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:53.880
<v Speaker 2>can track what stories they read and which ones they

0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:57.360
<v Speaker 2>read to the end, the disconnect between the things that

0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:00.440
<v Speaker 2>general populace says they want from their journalism and the

0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:04.760
<v Speaker 2>stuff that they engage with or consume. There's a pretty

0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.040
<v Speaker 2>big chasm between those two things, isn't it?

0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.880
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely and I think that what you've really done is

0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.960
<v Speaker 3>make another point here, which is so important for people

0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:17.520
<v Speaker 3>not just in the media, but consumers of the media

0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.880
<v Speaker 3>and people who care about the state of civic society

0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:25.160
<v Speaker 3>should be aware of. Is that media now has rapidly

0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.280
<v Speaker 3>changed in the last few years and is heading in

0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:33.440
<v Speaker 3>this direction so fast. Media now has become niche. It's

0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:38.480
<v Speaker 3>only niche. Even the New York Times, with ten million subscribers,

0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.960
<v Speaker 3>is actually in its marketplace, which is the world is

0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:47.120
<v Speaker 3>a niche. The old newspapers that used to sell hundreds

0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:49.720
<v Speaker 3>and hundreds of thousands of copies a day now sell

0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:52.760
<v Speaker 3>tens of thousands of copies to day to very old

0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:56.240
<v Speaker 3>people largely, and I'm old, so I can say that.

0:16:56.360 --> 0:17:00.320
<v Speaker 3>But they are niches. Everything is a niche. And so

0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.320
<v Speaker 3>if you look at what the mass market is interested in,

0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.239
<v Speaker 3>it exists, but it largely exists on social media and

0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:10.600
<v Speaker 3>it's certainly not news journalism.

0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. One of the things that I so fondly remember

0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.560
<v Speaker 2>about working closely with you and you know, our time

0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:21.840
<v Speaker 2>together and getting the wheelis Center established was that attitude

0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:25.440
<v Speaker 2>of willingness to kind of take a risk and do

0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:27.959
<v Speaker 2>something because there was a gap that needed to be filled,

0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, that desire to actually make a social and

0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:35.119
<v Speaker 2>cultural difference in the thing that was made. That the

0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:38.760
<v Speaker 2>profitability the viability of it mattered at all times, but

0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:43.080
<v Speaker 2>that the driving impulse was how do we make this

0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:46.240
<v Speaker 2>space better thanks to the work that we're doing. And

0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:48.320
<v Speaker 2>I think it's interesting for someone who spent their career

0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:52.480
<v Speaker 2>in journalism and in newspapers overwhelmingly that you still carry

0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:55.520
<v Speaker 2>that energy that's that's what you do, because it seems

0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:57.240
<v Speaker 2>at odds with so much of what we see from

0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:57.720
<v Speaker 2>our media.

0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:03.680
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I guess it's I don't know how or why

0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.240
<v Speaker 3>it was inculcated in me, but I did have that.

0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.720
<v Speaker 3>I mean, it wasn't quite recklessness because I've always approached

0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:15.119
<v Speaker 3>whatever the risky projects that I was involved with, including

0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:18.960
<v Speaker 3>the Wheeler Center, with the view that you push the

0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:23.879
<v Speaker 3>boundaries really hard creatively and commercially, but you do it

0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:28.040
<v Speaker 3>understanding what would happen in the worst case scenario, so

0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:33.000
<v Speaker 3>you try and put some kind of safety limit underneath

0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:36.840
<v Speaker 3>it to make sure that it can't actually fall over

0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.920
<v Speaker 3>the cliff. And if you can get those two things right,

0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:43.920
<v Speaker 3>it seems to me that that's the best mix, rather

0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:48.800
<v Speaker 3>than being all bravado and just doing it and suddenly

0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:52.560
<v Speaker 3>you see the cliff, or being so cautious that you

0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:53.960
<v Speaker 3>never get anywhere near the cliff.

0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.040
<v Speaker 2>I think that relationship between the two is really important.

0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:59.760
<v Speaker 2>But when you were describing your career before, you're a

0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.280
<v Speaker 2>great pains to refer to yourself as a media owner

0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:07.000
<v Speaker 2>rather than as a mogul. And I want to know,

0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:08.760
<v Speaker 2>is that just a question of scale or is that

0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:10.720
<v Speaker 2>a question of attitude both?

0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:12.880
<v Speaker 3>I think. I mean it's certainly a question of scale.

0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:16.560
<v Speaker 3>I think media moguls, to the extent that they are

0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:21.240
<v Speaker 3>defined formally, need to have significant scale. I mean, in

0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:25.480
<v Speaker 3>today's dollar terms, they need to be running organizations and

0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:29.159
<v Speaker 3>empires that are billions and billions of dollars. So in

0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:33.359
<v Speaker 3>the book, I actually delineate between media moguls and media magnates.

0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:37.320
<v Speaker 3>And then, as some of my friends describe me, I'm

0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:38.280
<v Speaker 3>a media mongrel.

0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that seems like a good slating scale. After the break,

0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:49.560
<v Speaker 2>Eric reveals his favorite media moguls and why this book

0:19:49.760 --> 0:20:02.480
<v Speaker 2>won't be his last. We'll be right back. Part of

0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.119
<v Speaker 2>the central thesis of the Men Who Killed News is

0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:07.840
<v Speaker 2>about the centrality, as the name would suggest, of these

0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:13.719
<v Speaker 2>moguls of the individuals who, through their application of their power,

0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:19.000
<v Speaker 2>completely shaped and defined the way we understood news were

0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:23.120
<v Speaker 2>the men who killed the news. Also the men who

0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:23.879
<v Speaker 2>made the news.

0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.720
<v Speaker 3>They were, I mean, the basic thesis of this book

0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:31.920
<v Speaker 3>that has struck me for I spent two years working

0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:35.959
<v Speaker 3>as an editor for Rupert Murdoch in the late nineteen eighties,

0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:41.160
<v Speaker 3>and then I left because my social and ethical conscience

0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:43.520
<v Speaker 3>didn't allow me to stay, and I left. And ever

0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:48.240
<v Speaker 3>since then I've both observed and to some extent, participated

0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:52.040
<v Speaker 3>in what I describe as a loophole in democracy. And

0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:59.480
<v Speaker 3>that loophole is that democratic countries provide significant support for

0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.400
<v Speaker 3>a free press, in the sense that in America it's

0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:08.119
<v Speaker 3>the First Amendment constitution. Most European countries have free press

0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:12.199
<v Speaker 3>support in their constitutions. In Australia and England it's a

0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:14.720
<v Speaker 3>bit different, but it still exists. And so what that

0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:18.439
<v Speaker 3>means is the press has a privileged position in society,

0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:22.119
<v Speaker 3>as it should have to hold power to account and

0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:27.159
<v Speaker 3>to really make democracy the sort of vibrant force that

0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:29.639
<v Speaker 3>it should be. But on the other side of the

0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:37.560
<v Speaker 3>ledger there are absolutely no regulations, laws, ethical guidelines. There's

0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:44.280
<v Speaker 3>nothing to control or to regulate the way that the

0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:49.320
<v Speaker 3>owners of the free press operate, and so it's entirely

0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:53.560
<v Speaker 3>up to the conscience of individuals to decide how they

0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:58.679
<v Speaker 3>get that balance right. And the media moguls who decided

0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:02.080
<v Speaker 3>that they were in it for money and power, not

0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:06.439
<v Speaker 3>for the role of the free press, were able to

0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.280
<v Speaker 3>achieve money and power. But the price that was paid

0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:14.440
<v Speaker 3>in those democracies, I think has been enormous and continues

0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:14.720
<v Speaker 3>to be.

0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:17.879
<v Speaker 2>Some of the characters in this book, it's a strange

0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:21.120
<v Speaker 2>way to kind of talk about it, but are very

0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:24.440
<v Speaker 2>richly drawn, and it seems to me there's a certain

0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:28.360
<v Speaker 2>amount of pleasure in on earthing they're peccadillos and their monstrousness.

0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.440
<v Speaker 2>Do you have favorites? Do you like if you were

0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:34.199
<v Speaker 2>collecting football cards or their moguls, so you'd want to

0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:35.359
<v Speaker 2>kind of keep in your album.

0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:39.399
<v Speaker 3>Well, before I answer that, I should just mention that

0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:43.720
<v Speaker 3>they're not all bad. There are some good moguls, and

0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:47.320
<v Speaker 3>the Ox Sulzburger family who owns the New York Times,

0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:51.639
<v Speaker 3>are good moguls. I think the Fairfax family in this country,

0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:54.439
<v Speaker 3>who no longer have media holdings, although they have a

0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:56.840
<v Speaker 3>small interest in my company, and I should declare that

0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:01.520
<v Speaker 3>I think we're really good moguls. Lord Thompson, the Canadian

0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:03.960
<v Speaker 3>who then went on to own the London Times, was

0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:07.280
<v Speaker 3>a really good mogul. So there were good moguls as well.

0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:11.920
<v Speaker 3>The others, however, in my view, always put their own

0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:15.640
<v Speaker 3>interests ahead of the public interest. Are their favorites well,

0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:18.120
<v Speaker 3>I mean it depends what the criteria are. I mean,

0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:22.840
<v Speaker 3>you couldn't invent a character like Robert Maxwell, both the

0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:26.280
<v Speaker 3>way he lived and the way he died. Lord Beaverbrook

0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:30.800
<v Speaker 3>was a media mogul from Central Casting, and the stories

0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:36.280
<v Speaker 3>about him are just so entertaining. The TV series Succession

0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:39.479
<v Speaker 3>tries to tap this and does to a large extent

0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:42.760
<v Speaker 3>tap it. And when people ask me what do I

0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:46.600
<v Speaker 3>think of Succession? Wasn't it a fantastic story? I say

0:23:46.640 --> 0:23:48.760
<v Speaker 3>to them, well, to me, it was a documentary.

0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:52.000
<v Speaker 2>At the very top, you have a kind of list,

0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:54.800
<v Speaker 2>almost like a Russian novel, of here are the key

0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:56.679
<v Speaker 2>players who you need to know and how they connect,

0:23:56.880 --> 0:24:00.960
<v Speaker 2>and you're very ineffably, Eric Beecher, I am the way

0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:04.119
<v Speaker 2>that you sum them up. I particularly took issue with

0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:07.120
<v Speaker 2>the where you described Conrad Black, which made me laugh,

0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:11.120
<v Speaker 2>which was Canadian publisher controlled the global quality newspapers, pompous

0:24:11.119 --> 0:24:15.399
<v Speaker 2>and verbose author, stole from his company, jailed, And it

0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:18.960
<v Speaker 2>seems to me that construction suggests that verbosity is a

0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:21.439
<v Speaker 2>product of being an author, just as being jailed as

0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:23.240
<v Speaker 2>a product of stealing from your company.

0:24:23.359 --> 0:24:27.320
<v Speaker 3>Well, Conrad Black was never the biggest media mogul in

0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:29.760
<v Speaker 3>history in terms of the size of his empire, although

0:24:29.880 --> 0:24:34.080
<v Speaker 3>at its peak it was quite extensive. But he was

0:24:34.880 --> 0:24:38.440
<v Speaker 3>certainly in the top two or three most colorful media moguls.

0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:41.640
<v Speaker 3>And he's still alive. He's still writing columns in Canada.

0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:45.879
<v Speaker 3>He's still a member of the House of Lords. He's

0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:49.119
<v Speaker 3>discredited in his home country Canada. He's not allowed to

0:24:49.160 --> 0:24:52.040
<v Speaker 3>travel to the US because he had a jail term there.

0:24:52.480 --> 0:24:54.080
<v Speaker 3>I mean, you can't make these things up.

0:24:54.480 --> 0:24:56.360
<v Speaker 2>That is a great way to end your life as

0:24:56.680 --> 0:25:00.760
<v Speaker 2>a media proprietors in exile but still writing column You

0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:04.200
<v Speaker 2>get to do both things exactly. One of the things

0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:07.359
<v Speaker 2>that you clearly in this book have a lot of

0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:09.800
<v Speaker 2>belief in an affection for, and I know this about

0:25:09.800 --> 0:25:12.359
<v Speaker 2>you and the way you've conducted yourself in your career

0:25:13.160 --> 0:25:17.960
<v Speaker 2>is the writer, the journalist the person who's actually crafted

0:25:17.960 --> 0:25:20.840
<v Speaker 2>the story and put it out there. And it seems

0:25:20.840 --> 0:25:24.760
<v Speaker 2>to me that many of the threats across decades that

0:25:24.840 --> 0:25:29.120
<v Speaker 2>you run through here are threats of delivery mechanism, their

0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:32.760
<v Speaker 2>threats a business model, but they're not threats to the

0:25:32.800 --> 0:25:35.040
<v Speaker 2>purity of the telling the story in the first place.

0:25:35.480 --> 0:25:38.760
<v Speaker 2>But what we're facing now with the rise of AI

0:25:39.280 --> 0:25:41.320
<v Speaker 2>is an existential threat to writers.

0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:44.440
<v Speaker 3>Look it looks like it is. I think it's far

0:25:44.520 --> 0:25:48.320
<v Speaker 3>too early to be in any way definitive about how

0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:50.760
<v Speaker 3>this is going to play out, just as it was

0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:54.120
<v Speaker 3>when the Internet arrived on our doorsteps, you know, twenty

0:25:54.200 --> 0:25:59.000
<v Speaker 3>five years ago or whenever it was. AI in theory

0:25:59.200 --> 0:26:02.960
<v Speaker 3>and in some place in practice has the capacity and

0:26:03.000 --> 0:26:06.960
<v Speaker 3>the ability to replace certain kinds of journalism. But will

0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:11.040
<v Speaker 3>people trust that If it's not proved to be either

0:26:11.119 --> 0:26:16.480
<v Speaker 3>accurate or incisive, or intelligent or serious, serious readers won't

0:26:16.480 --> 0:26:19.879
<v Speaker 3>trust it. The people it will be vulnerable are people

0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:23.800
<v Speaker 3>who aren't serious about their consumption of news and journalism.

0:26:24.520 --> 0:26:27.960
<v Speaker 3>So we just don't know yet. But I think we

0:26:28.119 --> 0:26:33.679
<v Speaker 3>need to prepare for the worst, and that requires governments

0:26:34.119 --> 0:26:39.840
<v Speaker 3>regulating and legislating. We need to impose copyright principles across AI.

0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:41.879
<v Speaker 3>We need to do all of those things because at

0:26:41.880 --> 0:26:44.880
<v Speaker 3>the end of the day, it's only humans who can

0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:48.359
<v Speaker 3>create the kind of content that is going to both

0:26:48.400 --> 0:26:50.919
<v Speaker 3>satisfy and enlighten other humans.

0:26:51.680 --> 0:26:53.920
<v Speaker 2>The book was more than ten years in the making,

0:26:54.000 --> 0:26:57.160
<v Speaker 2>and I'm curious about whether in the writing of it

0:26:57.960 --> 0:27:02.480
<v Speaker 2>there were surprises for you, or whether it confirmed things

0:27:02.520 --> 0:27:05.720
<v Speaker 2>that you'd long known and suspected about the industry that

0:27:05.720 --> 0:27:06.679
<v Speaker 2>you've given your life to.

0:27:07.760 --> 0:27:12.240
<v Speaker 3>There were no real surprises in the direction that I found,

0:27:12.840 --> 0:27:15.639
<v Speaker 3>and most of us who follow these things know about

0:27:15.640 --> 0:27:20.159
<v Speaker 3>that direction. What surprised and to some extent, alarmed me

0:27:20.600 --> 0:27:26.080
<v Speaker 3>was the scale of it, the layers of it, and

0:27:26.440 --> 0:27:31.480
<v Speaker 3>the way that it's become normalized and accepted. And I

0:27:31.600 --> 0:27:37.679
<v Speaker 3>understand why that might be, because most normal citizens, including

0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:42.920
<v Speaker 3>politicians and political leaders and business leaders, feel they can't

0:27:42.920 --> 0:27:44.879
<v Speaker 3>do anything about it, so they have to live with

0:27:45.000 --> 0:27:48.440
<v Speaker 3>the beast rather than tame the beast. But when you

0:27:48.920 --> 0:27:51.400
<v Speaker 3>look at the cumulative effect, which is what I've done

0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:54.720
<v Speaker 3>in this book, from really the late eighteen hundreds, when

0:27:54.760 --> 0:27:59.040
<v Speaker 3>the first big kind of newspapers started to evolve, until

0:27:59.280 --> 0:28:02.439
<v Speaker 3>you know, the third decade of this century, where we

0:28:02.520 --> 0:28:05.560
<v Speaker 3>have social media, and we have Fox News and whatever.

0:28:05.840 --> 0:28:10.440
<v Speaker 3>The cumulative effect has just been horrific, and that surprised

0:28:10.480 --> 0:28:11.760
<v Speaker 3>me the scale of it.

0:28:12.840 --> 0:28:16.680
<v Speaker 2>At the end of writing this book, are you more

0:28:16.800 --> 0:28:19.240
<v Speaker 2>or less optimistic about the prospect of the kind of

0:28:19.320 --> 0:28:22.000
<v Speaker 2>journalism you believe in having a future.

0:28:23.800 --> 0:28:28.679
<v Speaker 3>I'm far less optimistic about it happening at scale, and

0:28:28.720 --> 0:28:33.120
<v Speaker 3>indeed that's not what's happening. But I remain in some

0:28:33.160 --> 0:28:37.600
<v Speaker 3>ways even more optimistic of it happening in important pockets

0:28:38.440 --> 0:28:44.240
<v Speaker 3>because the business model now requires the consumers and readers

0:28:44.680 --> 0:28:48.000
<v Speaker 3>and viewers of quality journalism to pay for it in

0:28:48.040 --> 0:28:50.120
<v Speaker 3>a way that they didn't before. They used to pay

0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:53.240
<v Speaker 3>for their newspaper, but it was subsidized heavily by the advertising.

0:28:54.400 --> 0:28:58.280
<v Speaker 3>It means that the people who end up paying for

0:28:58.320 --> 0:29:01.160
<v Speaker 3>it and consuming it take it very soon seriously, and

0:29:01.200 --> 0:29:04.200
<v Speaker 3>they can fund to a limited but a big enough

0:29:04.240 --> 0:29:08.080
<v Speaker 3>degree the resources needed to do it well. So it's

0:29:08.080 --> 0:29:08.800
<v Speaker 3>a bit of both.

0:29:10.920 --> 0:29:14.000
<v Speaker 2>Now you know you've got a book on the front

0:29:14.000 --> 0:29:16.320
<v Speaker 2>of the shelves of the bookshops, in the library, whatever.

0:29:16.720 --> 0:29:18.840
<v Speaker 2>Now do you have a yen to write a follow

0:29:18.920 --> 0:29:21.400
<v Speaker 2>up book? Books? Where you're going to spend the next

0:29:21.400 --> 0:29:22.160
<v Speaker 2>few years.

0:29:22.480 --> 0:29:25.440
<v Speaker 3>Well, I really really enjoyed it. I mean, I've been

0:29:25.480 --> 0:29:29.800
<v Speaker 3>writing journalism and editing journalism all my life, but writing

0:29:29.840 --> 0:29:32.840
<v Speaker 3>a one hundred thousand word book is a different proposition.

0:29:32.880 --> 0:29:35.280
<v Speaker 2>And it's flying business class. You can stretch your legs out.

0:29:35.960 --> 0:29:38.280
<v Speaker 3>It's flying first class, actually, Michael, and you can really

0:29:38.320 --> 0:29:41.480
<v Speaker 3>stretch your legs out. But it was really satisfying. So

0:29:42.160 --> 0:29:46.080
<v Speaker 3>I've enjoyed that. I am thinking about another project. I'm

0:29:46.080 --> 0:29:46.920
<v Speaker 3>not sure what it will be.

0:29:48.320 --> 0:29:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Eric Beacher, thank you for your time.

0:29:50.320 --> 0:29:51.040
<v Speaker 3>Thanks Michael.

0:29:53.200 --> 0:29:55.880
<v Speaker 2>Eric Beach's book The Men Who Killed the News is

0:29:55.920 --> 0:29:56.760
<v Speaker 2>available now.

0:30:10.720 --> 0:30:13.200
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening to Eric Beacher on read this. For

0:30:13.240 --> 0:30:15.120
<v Speaker 1>the next couple of months, we're going to bring you

0:30:15.200 --> 0:30:17.640
<v Speaker 1>some of the best interviews from the show every Sunday.

0:30:17.960 --> 0:30:21.680
<v Speaker 1>Listen out for conversations with Mary Beard, Bruce Pasco, Roxanne

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<v Speaker 1>Gay and more. And if you don't want to wait

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<v Speaker 1>until next Sunday to dive in to read this, you

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<v Speaker 1>can search for it wherever you listen to podcasts.