WEBVTT - Exclusive: Ten dead after welfare glitch ignored by government

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<v Speaker 1>From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven Am.

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<v Speaker 1>It was twenty twenty when the government first discovered that

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<v Speaker 1>a glitch in its systems was wrongfully kicking welfare recipients

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<v Speaker 1>off their payments, but rather than fixing the error than

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<v Speaker 1>and there, the department did nothing about it for three years.

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<v Speaker 1>In that time, ten people died. Whether their deaths were

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<v Speaker 1>the result of suicide or destitution from having their payments cut,

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<v Speaker 1>Services Australia won't say. Today Senior reporter for the Saturday Paper,

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<v Speaker 1>Rick Morton with his exclusive story about the ministers who

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<v Speaker 1>failed to act protecting the interests of private companies over

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<v Speaker 1>the vulnerable. It's Wednesday, February twenty six, So Rick, tell

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<v Speaker 1>me where this story begins for you.

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<v Speaker 2>So I've been covering this for almost a year now

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<v Speaker 2>and there was always something kind of fishy about it,

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<v Speaker 2>because you know, like in January last year. So in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty four, the Department of Employment they kind of

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<v Speaker 2>sheepishly admit that there's this problem with the IT system

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<v Speaker 2>that deals with employment services, right and they say, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>the IT system stuffed up. There was a bug and

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<v Speaker 2>it's affected about one thousand people who were hit with

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<v Speaker 2>financial penalties or had their welfare payment cut off entirely

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<v Speaker 2>because of this IT system. But then by the time

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<v Speaker 2>I was writing about it in July, the number of

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<v Speaker 2>people affected is revised up again, so now it's about

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<v Speaker 2>thirteen hundred people. And then come November, this source from

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<v Speaker 2>the government says they're about to announce this new issue.

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<v Speaker 2>And then also, by the way, all those IT glitches,

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<v Speaker 2>the numbers that are affected by those has gone up again. Now, well,

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<v Speaker 2>all of this is happening. People of course, are watching

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<v Speaker 2>it very carefully, and one of those is this guy

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<v Speaker 2>called Jeremy Poxen, who's a welfare rights Activisty has been

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<v Speaker 2>around for ages now, really and he knew about these

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<v Speaker 2>issues of his because there was bits and pieces being

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<v Speaker 2>fed out in the media, and so Jeremy says, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think they're being forthcoming. I'm going to FOI,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Lodger freedom of information request?

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<v Speaker 1>Right? What did that uncover?

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<v Speaker 2>So the briefings he got back, it's fair to say

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<v Speaker 2>they were quite shocking because there were eighty pages in

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<v Speaker 2>there of ministery or briefs to both Tony Burke, the

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<v Speaker 2>former Employment Minister, and the current Employment Minister. Murray Watt

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<v Speaker 2>from the Department of Employment about the issues with the

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<v Speaker 2>IT system, and it showed that the problem was first

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<v Speaker 2>identified in April twenty twenty and the department just didn't

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<v Speaker 2>do anything about it for.

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<v Speaker 3>Another three years.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, and so what was the actual problem? What was

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of technical glitch or whatever in the system

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<v Speaker 1>that had caused all of this to happen.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, let me just start by explaining this is

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<v Speaker 2>all about Workforce Australia, right. So Ever since Howard privatized

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<v Speaker 2>employment service providers, the government has paid private, nonprofit and

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<v Speaker 2>for profit providers to administer a compliance regime around you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if you're on a job seeker payment, you have to

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<v Speaker 2>do mutual obligations, so you either have to do work

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<v Speaker 2>for the doll or you have to do some kind

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<v Speaker 2>of training or being study. And if you don't, and

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<v Speaker 2>if you don't look for work a certain number of

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<v Speaker 2>jobs every month, then you're going to get penalized.

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<v Speaker 4>Let's learn more about the targeted Compliance framework.

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<v Speaker 2>And in twenty eighteen the Coalition introduces the new Targeted

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<v Speaker 2>Compliance Framework and it is an insanely complicated.

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<v Speaker 3>Traffic light system. I guess is the best way.

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<v Speaker 2>To describe what it is about how to penalize people

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<v Speaker 2>who are not meeting their mutual obligations, who don't have

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<v Speaker 2>a reasonable excuse. In the words of the Department, your.

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<v Speaker 4>Job plan will include your mutual obligation requirements tailored to

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<v Speaker 4>your individual circumstances. You need to meet and report on

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<v Speaker 4>these requirements, including meeting your monthly points target on the

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<v Speaker 4>Workforce Australia website.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a rout Goldberg machine.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like if this, then that, and if you don't

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<v Speaker 2>do this, then you spend ninety a penalty zone, and

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<v Speaker 2>if you're in the penalty zone for so long, then

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<v Speaker 2>all of these other things happen. It is so complicated,

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit of humans oversight, but mostly it's.

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<v Speaker 3>An automated IT system.

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<v Speaker 2>And so by the time the department actually realized that

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<v Speaker 2>people were being cut off welfare or they were being

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<v Speaker 2>financially penalized, there were thirteen hundred of them in the

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<v Speaker 2>end who were hit with fines, who were cut off

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<v Speaker 2>from their payments, and that happened three thousand, four hundred

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<v Speaker 2>different times.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Okay, so there is this kind of technical stuff

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<v Speaker 1>up in twenty twenty that the department finds out about,

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<v Speaker 1>but doesn't do anything about for three years. In that time,

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<v Speaker 1>there are thirteen hundred people approximately cut off their welfare payments.

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<v Speaker 1>So at what point does the department decide to do

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<v Speaker 1>something about this.

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<v Speaker 2>So that thirteen hundred, you know, those thirteen hundred.

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<v Speaker 3>People who were affected.

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<v Speaker 2>That happened mostly later on after many years, and the

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<v Speaker 2>department only noticed it again in twenty twenty three, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was actually around August, and then by

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<v Speaker 2>septemb they're briefing, we need to fix this thing. And

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<v Speaker 2>by October they've released the first fix for this IT glitch.

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<v Speaker 3>That was first identified in twenty twenty.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem is that fix created another problem trying to

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<v Speaker 2>fix the first problem, which had almost exactly the same effect,

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<v Speaker 2>and hit another seventy three people with wrong financial penalties

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<v Speaker 2>or cancelation of payments that should never have happened. And

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<v Speaker 2>in the course of briefing their ministers at that point

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<v Speaker 2>was Tony Burke, they said that, you know, there might

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<v Speaker 2>be an additional fifty five bugs. Since I'm quoting from

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<v Speaker 2>THEFI briefing, our initial analysis suggests the majority of these

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<v Speaker 2>bugs will not have significant impact on penalties. The number

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<v Speaker 2>of participants impacted by all bugs is still under investigation,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's a very important point because they don't actually

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<v Speaker 2>know right.

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<v Speaker 1>So at this point, the Minister, though, is being warned

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<v Speaker 1>that there are serious problems. I suppose, so does he

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<v Speaker 1>or the Department at this point try and do anything

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<v Speaker 1>to fix it.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think it would be unfair to say

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<v Speaker 2>that the ministers are not concerned. So the Department and

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<v Speaker 2>they're the ones who control the system, right, So they're

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<v Speaker 2>briefing the government and in the briefing to what they say,

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<v Speaker 2>literally I'm quoting it changes would likely require significant government investment.

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<v Speaker 1>Well that makes sense because it sounds like it was

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<v Speaker 1>very broken.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very broken, and also we know that it is

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<v Speaker 2>always an incredible cost. But in this case, the it

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<v Speaker 2>is complicated, not because you know, we're trying to do

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<v Speaker 2>quantum computing, but because the legislation is incredibly complicated. So

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<v Speaker 2>when the Department of Employment was briefing Tony Burke on

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<v Speaker 2>the IT clitch issue in a way that they could

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<v Speaker 2>be sure that they wouldn't affect people unnecessarily, they came

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<v Speaker 2>up with two options. Option A was to basically prevent

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<v Speaker 2>people from attracting financial penalties or cancelations in the first place,

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<v Speaker 2>just take them out of the penalty zone after so

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<v Speaker 2>much time. The second option was to turn off what

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<v Speaker 2>they called the penalty zone altogether, and they didn't want

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<v Speaker 2>to do that because doing that would actually remove the

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<v Speaker 2>threat of consequence. If you switch off consequences for people

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<v Speaker 2>who don't engage, then suddenly they're not engaging with private

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<v Speaker 2>employment service providers that the government pays about one and

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<v Speaker 2>a half billion dollars a year in Workforce Australia to

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<v Speaker 2>provide these services. And they said there was a financial

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<v Speaker 2>viability problem if they turned that off, because suddenly these

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<v Speaker 2>private operators would not be making any money from unemployed

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<v Speaker 2>people and that was untenable.

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<v Speaker 1>And so what of it? Can we go back to

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<v Speaker 1>these people rick who were cut off from their payments,

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<v Speaker 1>What do we know about what happened to them after that?

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<v Speaker 2>So the government decides for people who were given financial penalties,

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<v Speaker 2>which is you know, in some cases one week or

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<v Speaker 2>two weeks of their payment, they can pay that back.

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<v Speaker 2>They find those people in the system, they track them down,

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<v Speaker 2>they give back.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's something like six hundred thousand.

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<v Speaker 2>Dollars for the people who had their welfare payments canceled,

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<v Speaker 2>they try and track them all down for a star

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<v Speaker 2>there's forty one people.

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<v Speaker 3>They can't get a hold of these fi brief in show.

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<v Speaker 2>And also there are ten people who died after the

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<v Speaker 2>welfare payments were canceled and before the government has been

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<v Speaker 2>able to try and find them to pay the money back.

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<v Speaker 2>Services Australia obviously learned that these people have died. We

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<v Speaker 2>know that the glitch problem could only have led to

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<v Speaker 2>cancelations after a long period of time, so they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>die that long ago, and Services Australia won't tell me

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<v Speaker 2>how they died, or whether they know how they died, or.

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<v Speaker 3>If they even asked how they died. That's a problem.

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<v Speaker 2>Because to me, there is at least the chance that

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<v Speaker 2>maybe one of these people died because of something that

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<v Speaker 2>happened with this system. We don't know the answer to

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<v Speaker 2>that because they haven't investigated it.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, Is the system still broken? Where is

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<v Speaker 1>the system at now?

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<v Speaker 2>Rick?

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<v Speaker 1>Because it sounds like at every term when the department

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<v Speaker 1>did decide to try and do something about the problem,

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<v Speaker 1>they only created more problems. So is it actually functioning

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<v Speaker 1>correctly now?

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<v Speaker 2>No, it's not so Just in generally. Just last month

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<v Speaker 2>they had to pause mutual applications for two weeks because

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<v Speaker 2>there was another IT glitch. I mean, there's an IT

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<v Speaker 2>glitch every other Friday, and we know that they keep

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<v Speaker 2>discovering these issues. Might not be the old ones, but

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<v Speaker 2>there's new ones. And there's a separate issue now where

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<v Speaker 2>they're going back to one thousand people, different people who

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<v Speaker 2>had their welfare payments cut off because the delegate for

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<v Speaker 2>the Secretary of the Department of Employment wasn't giving due

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<v Speaker 2>discretion to whether people would be thrust into financial hardship.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, these are people who are living pretty tough

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<v Speaker 2>lives and the people who are most likely to get

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<v Speaker 2>in the penalty zone in this crazy system, people with

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of comorbid things going on in their life.

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<v Speaker 2>They might have mental health problems, they might be living

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<v Speaker 2>in remote indigenous communities, they might be partially considered able

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<v Speaker 2>to work because they've got a disability, but they're not

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<v Speaker 2>on the DSP all of these things right, and so

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<v Speaker 2>to have your payment canceled means in practice that you

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<v Speaker 2>get cut off your only income support and you are

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<v Speaker 2>forbidden from reapplying for at least four weeks. Now, even

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<v Speaker 2>when I was earning money in my twenties. If I

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<v Speaker 2>got cut off from my payment for a week, I

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't have any money. I didn't have savings, I couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>make rent. These are people who definitely don't have money

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<v Speaker 2>in the bank. So no, the model, the system, the it,

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's the I or the human oversight, none of

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<v Speaker 2>it is up to scratch. And the only people that

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<v Speaker 2>can order a stop to it are the ministers of

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<v Speaker 2>the crown, and that has not been done.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, tell me a bit more about that, then, because

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of what you've uncovered has come through reporting

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<v Speaker 1>and through this FOI freedom of freedom of Information request.

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<v Speaker 1>But as you have continued to look into this, how

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<v Speaker 1>would you characterize the official response that you've been getting

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<v Speaker 1>from the department, from the minister.

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<v Speaker 2>It's sheepish, is the best way to describe it. Where

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<v Speaker 2>they know they've done something wrong, not deliberately, but the

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<v Speaker 2>reaction to the errors that are being found could be

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<v Speaker 2>characterized as kind of downplane what has happened, And so

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<v Speaker 2>it feels a little bit like on the fourth and

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<v Speaker 2>fifth and sixth occasion where they've found an error that

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<v Speaker 2>you might want to start to consider, as is your

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<v Speaker 2>obligation as a public servant with duties and responsibilities under

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<v Speaker 2>the Act. As ministers who have the ultimate responsibility for

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<v Speaker 2>these systems, you might want to actually consider stopping this system.

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<v Speaker 2>All we have at the moment is they've stopped the

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<v Speaker 2>bits that they literally cannot get away with not stopping.

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<v Speaker 2>So they've paused cancelation of welfare payments. Great, automatically taking

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<v Speaker 2>welfare recipients out of the penalty zone at ninety one days. Great,

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<v Speaker 2>But they've kept everything else. And again they don't know

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<v Speaker 2>what else the system is or is not getting right.

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<v Speaker 2>They've paid more than half million dollars now to Deloitte

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<v Speaker 2>to do an external assurance review, but again the system

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<v Speaker 2>carries on its merry way, and the comb of Onbwardsman

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<v Speaker 2>is now investigating. But explicitly in their response to me

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<v Speaker 2>they said, we are not looking at, you know, whether

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<v Speaker 2>employment Services is a good system all over. We're looking

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<v Speaker 2>at whether the targeted compliance trainwork, which is a Coalition

0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:30.319
<v Speaker 2>era policy, whether that's being implemented properly. And we had

0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.480
<v Speaker 2>these very similar issues with Robodett, where the question was.

0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:34.360
<v Speaker 3>Always so narrow.

0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:38.440
<v Speaker 2>It was not whether this Robodet was illegal. It was

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<v Speaker 2>not whether it was even moral. It was whether if

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<v Speaker 2>the department had come up with a set of rules

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<v Speaker 2>and procedures, were those rules and procedures being followed and

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<v Speaker 2>implemented properly.

0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:51.679
<v Speaker 3>That cuts out a lot of understanding from the problem, and.

0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:53.760
<v Speaker 2>It will do so again in this case if you

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<v Speaker 2>don't actually take a step back and go hang on

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<v Speaker 2>a second. The IT system is not the diagnosis. It

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<v Speaker 2>is a symptom of a wildly complicated, arcane, bureaucratic, and

0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:10.679
<v Speaker 2>quite cruel system of compliance designed to force.

0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:14.360
<v Speaker 3>People into jumping through these hoops, and so far no

0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:15.679
<v Speaker 3>one's taken any action on that.

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<v Speaker 4>Rick.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you for your time, Thanks for me, I appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, the Albanezi government has promised

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<v Speaker 1>a mobile phone reception quote anywhere where Australians can see

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<v Speaker 1>the sky. If re elected, Labour says it will introduce

0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:53.040
<v Speaker 1>laws that require telcos to provide outdoor mobile coverage across

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<v Speaker 1>all areas of Australia by twenty twenty seven, meaning an

0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.960
<v Speaker 1>extra five million square kilometers of the country would gain service,

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<v Speaker 1>and the Vatican says Pope Francis has shown slight improvement

0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.880
<v Speaker 1>and has resumed some work as he battles double pneumonia

0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:13.160
<v Speaker 1>and the onset of slight kidney failure. The eighty eight

0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:15.560
<v Speaker 1>year old Pontiff was admitted to hospital in Rome on

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<v Speaker 1>February fourteen after experiencing difficulty breathing. An unnamed Vatican official

0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:23.560
<v Speaker 1>has told the media the pope is now eating normally

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<v Speaker 1>and is alert and well oriented. I'm Ruby Jones. This

0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:34.880
<v Speaker 1>is seven am. See tomorrow.