Speaker 1: Welcome to the Christy Cast the half hour of Power. Actually,
Speaker 1: I better start the timer. Today's episode is a special
Speaker 1: one because it is very personal. A few years ago,
Speaker 1: I can't remember how long ago, but it was doing Lockdown,
Speaker 1: I made a friend Josh Reid Jones. In that weird
Speaker 1: way that happened in Lockdown, you sort of fast tracked
Speaker 1: your connection. We became really really close. But last year,
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, I was deep in the thick
Speaker 1: of it, sorting out my life, my work, my family,
Speaker 1: my finances. All of this was new to me, and
Speaker 1: in order to do so, I withdrew from everyone for
Speaker 1: over a year. I thought it was going to be
Speaker 1: a couple of months, and it turned out to be
Speaker 1: closer to eighteen. I just disappeared. Now, most people, understandably
Speaker 1: would have taken that as a sign, would have judged
Speaker 1: me for it. They may have moved on, they would
Speaker 1: have definitely taken it personally. But Josh didn't. Throughout that
Speaker 1: entire time, he kept checking in, no pressure, no expectations.
Speaker 2: Just kindness, just a quiet, constant, active kindness. And I wondered, then,
Speaker 2: why did he never assume the worst? Why did he
Speaker 2: never feel slighted. Why did he never stop reaching out?
Speaker 2: Did he ever think maybe I should just give up
Speaker 2: on this?
Speaker 1: And if he did think that, then why didn't he
Speaker 1: follow through? We haven't spoken about any of this yet.
Speaker 1: We still haven't really seen each other. I've saved it
Speaker 1: for today because I've got so many questions. Welcome to
Speaker 1: the Chrisy Cast. Joshua Jones, Now, what did you think
Speaker 1: was going on with me?
Speaker 3: He doesn't take a genie. I obviously knew what was
Speaker 3: happening all the way up to lead into everything, you know,
Speaker 3: and it's all the big stuff. It's like really big, big,
Speaker 3: heavy things for a big hearted person who's got lots
Speaker 3: of people relying on them, you know, heavy as the
Speaker 3: crown or heavy as the head that words the crown,
Speaker 3: and you've got a lot of When you've got a
Speaker 3: lot on sometimes people just more people. There's just more
Speaker 3: to deal with, you know.
Speaker 1: So more people.
Speaker 3: No problems, people problems. Yeah, if you feel like you
Speaker 3: have to do things, it can be like that.
Speaker 1: And it was just the weight of the responsibility and
Speaker 1: it was all new and I feel like my life
Speaker 1: that I'm the sort of person. Do you turn down
Speaker 1: the radio when you're reversing. Oh yeah, yeah, I do too,
Speaker 1: because I have to shut out the noise or I
Speaker 1: can't concentrate, and that's sort of what I had to do.
Speaker 1: I was so full of like, I didn't know what
Speaker 1: to do when you would contact me, because I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not the same person I was, do
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And I just thought, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, if I do catch up with him, it's
Speaker 1: going to be such a downer and I don't even
Speaker 1: know where to start. I'm so overwhelmed, and so I
Speaker 1: did those that awful thing that I never do. I
Speaker 1: just would just never. I just never responded. Did you
Speaker 1: think that I had ghosted you at any point?
Speaker 3: Ah?
Speaker 4: Nah, I didn't think ghosting.
Speaker 3: I just thought, you know, you're in it, and probably
Speaker 3: if anything, that just means you know that it's more
Speaker 3: important to just you know, hear if you need it,
Speaker 3: and just do that with no expectation, because like, that's
Speaker 3: that's obviously what's happening. The first couple of times. It's like, oh,
Speaker 3: you're just busy. We're both a bit shit sometimes messaging anyway,
Speaker 3: because we run around you. Look, we have everyone, you know,
Speaker 3: we do. I think that most people do go I'll
Speaker 3: get back to that and you know, fuck, it's been
Speaker 3: three days off.
Speaker 4: Now I'll do it.
Speaker 3: But then after a couple I was like, okay, you know,
Speaker 3: you're in the middle of it. And then you probably
Speaker 3: once a few big things happen, it's difficult to have
Speaker 3: to reiterate those things to more people all the time.
Speaker 3: And you've got professionals and stuff you've got to deal with.
Speaker 3: If you know finance, you've got to go sit with
Speaker 3: your account. It's not always then you've got to deal
Speaker 3: with someone else, and you've got to do another thing.
Speaker 3: You don't always want to sit down and go through
Speaker 3: it all again with someone else, you know. And then
Speaker 3: after a little a few of those things happening, like
Speaker 3: I've got seven big things I've got to talk about
Speaker 3: and I cannot be asked. And now I've got ten
Speaker 3: big things, and now it's too much, and now I
Speaker 3: can't catch you up because it's too much to do
Speaker 3: in one go.
Speaker 1: And in hindsight, if I could have my time again,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't, by the way, and as horribilous anison are
Speaker 1: half horribillous, but I think if I had my time again,
Speaker 1: I would have I would have spoken to you, because
Speaker 1: I didn't speak to anybody. So when I know what
Speaker 1: you mean, you don't want to say the same thing
Speaker 1: over and over. That's annoying. But I wasn't saying it
Speaker 1: to anybody, and I think that, in hindsight, made it harder.
Speaker 1: But I felt like I couldn't I couldn't even articulate
Speaker 1: how much I was having to learn. I couldn't even
Speaker 1: do it. And I think I said that to you
Speaker 1: on a few occasions. I can't even I don't even
Speaker 1: know where to start.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot.
Speaker 1: So what do you think, because I do hear nobody
Speaker 1: ever got mad at me for it, for disappearing, which
Speaker 1: I'm really grateful for, because I don't like it when
Speaker 1: people get mad at me, particularly when I'm sad. But
Speaker 1: people do, a lot of people do. And you know,
Speaker 1: there's whole Reddit threads on how long is acceptable to
Speaker 1: not respond to a text message. I just don't think
Speaker 1: you're wired that way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you get frustrated. Everyone Everyone can get frustrated,
Speaker 3: and everyone can feel sad about stuff. And you know,
Speaker 3: I missed you, you know, like I miss you because
Speaker 3: I miss you.
Speaker 1: But I also didn't want you to know as well,
Speaker 1: because it was something that it was embarrassing. It was
Speaker 1: just such a mess, and I don't know you and
Speaker 1: your eyes looking at me. I just couldn't stand it.
Speaker 3: It's hard to think when you've when you've developed so
Speaker 3: much competence, to then find yourself swimming in all this
Speaker 3: like lack of competence and just be like, I don't
Speaker 3: want to be perceived as this person. And it works
Speaker 3: so hard to be past step one that now that
Speaker 3: I'm back at it, this isn't something that I want
Speaker 3: someone to be that's known me from step thirty. Yes,
Speaker 3: to know me at step one. But you know, I
Speaker 3: think good friends are here for all of it, up
Speaker 3: the ups and the downs and starts in the finish
Speaker 3: and all the things in between, and and but I
Speaker 3: also understand that how how vulnerable it feels if someone's
Speaker 3: with you in those moments and you're not one hundred
Speaker 3: percent sure what's going to happen, because been ages since
Speaker 3: anyone's been there, and you know, in that circumstance for
Speaker 3: you, you know, so I get it.
Speaker 1: And also I just didn't want to like bring anyone down. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what, I mean, you just don't want to
Speaker 1: be a burden. If you've only got miserable, hard things
Speaker 1: to say, you sound like you're winging. And I just thought, God,
Speaker 1: you know, I know your story. I know all of
Speaker 1: the things that you hear, and the people that you
Speaker 1: help and the people you work with and all of that,
Speaker 1: and I just thought, this feels really a lot for me,
Speaker 1: but I know that it isn't, and I didn't want
Speaker 1: to complain to here.
Speaker 3: I always think it's so funny when people say that
Speaker 3: to me, because I'm like, if I had a rash
Speaker 3: and I had a doctor friend, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 3: you look at rashes all day. I'm not going to
Speaker 3: show you my rash, Like that's exactly the person you
Speaker 3: should show it that person, right, And then anybody, you know,
Speaker 3: like the people go, oh, you know you you won't
Speaker 3: want to hear about marbles. I'm here for it. I'm
Speaker 3: good at it. But I also have seen enough and
Speaker 3: know enough and myself, you know, I don't practice everything
Speaker 3: that I preach in that regard, you know about talking
Speaker 3: about stuff either, you know, so we all have those moments.
Speaker 3: Not everyone feels there'll be a burden if they talk
Speaker 3: to others about their problems. But some people really feel that.
Speaker 3: So if you're want of those people, then it's a
Speaker 3: normal or it makes sense that you would respond that way.
Speaker 1: Did you know that that sort of person? I was, Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course, And you seem to have been born with
Speaker 1: the ability of active kindness.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Well it's very lovely of you.
Speaker 1: To say, and it's rare. Actually. I find that people
Speaker 1: are kind, people are good in general, but to be
Speaker 1: constantly thinking of ways to be thoughtful and kind and
Speaker 1: really mean it is rare. I think we should all
Speaker 1: do it a little bit more. What do you say
Speaker 1: to people that would like to be that sort of person?
Speaker 1: Where do you start?
Speaker 3: I think the starting point is to prioritize it, to
Speaker 3: think of it as being something that's really important to
Speaker 3: you as a starting point, and then to recognize that
Speaker 3: it's easier to do that, or you know, it's easy
Speaker 3: to be nice to the waiter and friendly to everyone
Speaker 3: in shop for your friends when things are going well,
Speaker 3: like when you've got all your shit together and everything's
Speaker 3: going well, and so in that moment you can you
Speaker 3: can sort of get by and go, yeah, see I
Speaker 3: do care, I do do it, And I think it's
Speaker 3: when the when the pressure is on and things aren't
Speaker 3: so easy, you're feeling a certain way, you're letting your
Speaker 3: own you know, you're not having a great day or
Speaker 3: things are difficult. If you drop it off, then then
Speaker 3: it's not a priority. It's clearly not really a priority
Speaker 3: to you. And I use the can that consideration to
Speaker 3: sort of reorient what I'm doing, partly to get out
Speaker 3: of my own head sometimes and partly because I think
Speaker 3: that you learn about you learn about how difficult it
Speaker 3: can be or where the challenges are when you try
Speaker 3: and do something and you've got to work around it.
Speaker 3: There's been times I haven't really had money for stuff,
Speaker 3: you know, at all, and so someone wants a beer
Speaker 3: and I don't really have the money, and then I'm like, well,
Speaker 3: I'll buy the beers because I'm first of all like
Speaker 3: silly things like I'm embarrassed and not buy a beer
Speaker 3: or whatever.
Speaker 1: Problem.
Speaker 3: But then, okay, I eat baked beans for a couple
Speaker 3: of weeks because we had a few pints or whatever.
Speaker 3: But that moment mattered more than whether I and Ah
Speaker 3: bake beans for a couple of weeks. It's a bit shitty.
Speaker 3: So when you do that then you get that experience,
Speaker 3: and then you realize you have more space for other
Speaker 3: people because you realize how difficult it is, and if
Speaker 3: in the difficulties pile up and not everyone's thinking about
Speaker 3: this all the time, and so you have empathy not
Speaker 3: just for people having a difficult time, but empathy in
Speaker 3: the way that people respond because you know how hard
Speaker 3: it was when you did it, and it's easy to
Speaker 3: imagine a tiny little bit harder and you wouldn't have
Speaker 3: been able to do it either, or you could have
Speaker 3: easily picked some other way forward. And I think that
Speaker 3: that helps.
Speaker 1: There was that cheesy book about love languages and whatever.
Speaker 1: Everyone's done that when they've first gone out with their
Speaker 1: boyfriend or girlfriend. But do you think that empathy and
Speaker 1: how we show it, not how we receive it, how
Speaker 1: we show it is more to do with the person
Speaker 1: that's doing it, and does the things that you do
Speaker 1: reflect your own the things that make you feel good?
Speaker 1: You know, like, does it make you feel good when
Speaker 1: you're feeling shit? If a friend texts you, yeah, I
Speaker 1: know that they're thinking of you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. I think it's nigh, But I
Speaker 3: also know how it can feel like a lot on
Speaker 3: a big day as well, when you've got a lot
Speaker 3: on there. It's one of the reasons why I think
Speaker 3: it's great when you've got friends you can sort of
Speaker 3: just have a little yarn with a lot regularly. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it takes to catch up immensity out of it, and
Speaker 3: so I'm really bad. I will never I cannot remember
Speaker 3: a time really that I've texted mate and gone mate,
Speaker 3: I am in all sorts and I need to talk
Speaker 3: to you. So if I haven't spoken to anyone, if
Speaker 3: it ended up, I haven't spoken any for ten days,
Speaker 3: I'm just sitting on it. And then by the time
Speaker 3: it rolls around it's been ten days. To catch up
Speaker 3: is too much and I never get to that point.
Speaker 3: But if you're just catching up and then what's going on,
Speaker 3: like ah, you know I didn't sleep that well, or
Speaker 3: this going on? Well, you know something happened. Spinning around
Speaker 3: a little bit on this in my head and it
Speaker 3: just takes the it takes the seriousness out of it,
Speaker 3: and like that focus on me. I'm woefully uncomfortable with
Speaker 3: pulling a conversation together around myself like I'm having a
Speaker 3: bad day. Gather around, team.
Speaker 1: I need you all to just I'm going to take
Speaker 1: you through it minute by minute.
Speaker 3: If I tell you, I could tell you a story
Speaker 3: about when I shit myself in Peru, No worries gather
Speaker 3: around everybody. I'm happy to be the center of attention
Speaker 3: for that, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't do it for
Speaker 3: those sorts of things, and for me, it really those
Speaker 3: little touch points regularly really help.
Speaker 1: That is a great tip because I don't do that,
Speaker 1: and that means that the people that I really love
Speaker 1: and that I know love me and I feel that love,
Speaker 1: don't really know what's going on. I keep that away
Speaker 1: from them out of necessity because I'm busy and I
Speaker 1: have to move on to the next thing. And then
Speaker 1: like every three days there's something, and then three days
Speaker 1: after that, I can't remember what that was. Do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? Yeah, but that is really good.
Speaker 1: Would you go? Would you go so far as to
Speaker 1: set a reminder. I'm going to set a reminder to
Speaker 1: call you and my friend and would you dial the number?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I recommend all the time for people to put it
Speaker 3: in their phones. It's so easy to forget, to forget stuff.
Speaker 3: The time goes so quick, and like I've got dates
Speaker 3: in my phone for my mates, like the kids' birthdays,
Speaker 3: like when anniversary of like people passing away at their
Speaker 3: family members.
Speaker 1: And my sobriety anniversary. You're the only person that remembers that,
Speaker 1: including me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, including thanks for the reminder. I forgot
Speaker 3: about it that.
Speaker 1: I like, Wow, yes it is two four years.
Speaker 3: Because sometimes you need people to celebrate the stuff you
Speaker 3: sort of are a bit over or don't think about
Speaker 3: that much as well. Yeah, so I think that's good.
Speaker 3: And then I think just the just the touching base
Speaker 3: and knowing like, hey, look, if this conversation goes for
Speaker 3: three minutes, who gives a shit, it doesn't matter. Touch
Speaker 3: base has a going. What's happening? What are you up to?
Speaker 3: Just driving here? Big day whatever. I'm kind of tired,
Speaker 3: you know, you get ten I'm tired conversations in a row.
Speaker 3: You get a sense of like, what's happening, you know,
Speaker 3: if you get oh, I'm away this weekend, I'm partying
Speaker 3: this week, I'm doing this week. Okay, it's interesting you're
Speaker 3: doing those things. So I'm out for dinner all the time.
Speaker 3: You've got people around you, you know, like cool, you're
Speaker 3: being social. That's nice and you've got friends who are like,
Speaker 3: you're being social means you're saying yes to too many
Speaker 3: things and you're probably going to burn out. I can
Speaker 3: see that in your future. Or you're saying yes to
Speaker 3: things and you're not hiding out in a cave. That's
Speaker 3: good for that other friend who you go, that's good,
Speaker 3: you've got it together. But that's part of those little
Speaker 3: touch points of how you get to really understand like
Speaker 3: the rhythms of people's lives as well, and then you
Speaker 3: can help in more active ways. That makes sense, you know,
Speaker 3: So then that's useful because it's like otherwise it gets
Speaker 3: more generic, and the more generic to help is the
Speaker 3: less pointed and good it can be.
Speaker 1: I think sometimes everyone that ever comes to my house,
Speaker 1: which is rare, I'll admit it, but you know, you know,
Speaker 1: it's such a miracle when me and my primary school
Speaker 1: girlfriends the planet's aligned and we all see each other.
Speaker 1: It's just so gorgeous. But everybody leaves with the little
Speaker 1: frozen meal of some description that I've made. I even
Speaker 1: invested in a huge deep freeze to keep them in
Speaker 1: because I just think, what a delightful treat to not
Speaker 1: have to think of dinner.
Speaker 3: The best, the best, the best, and when you're offering
Speaker 3: help for people, because this happens a lot. So one
Speaker 3: of the reminders I put in my phone someone dies,
Speaker 3: someone has a baby, those sorts of things. I put
Speaker 3: the reminder in for like six seven weeks afterwards, when
Speaker 3: everyone else is dropped off, because the first couple of
Speaker 3: weeks everyone's around. You get inundated with stuff forty eight
Speaker 3: lasagnas and everyone's messaging you constantly, and then six eight
Speaker 3: weeks later you're on your own. But like the hustle
Speaker 3: and bustle of the first six weeks is passed, and
Speaker 3: that's usually when people like are left with their own devices,
Speaker 3: you know, and so I just you know, you check
Speaker 3: in then and then you're you're at the right time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is the time, isn't it? Six seven eight
Speaker 1: weeks you realize that life is going to go on
Speaker 1: and you have to get over it, get into it,
Speaker 1: keep living without that person, that situation, that relationship. That's hard.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's a it's a it's a big time.
Speaker 3: And then I think it's good to offer people help
Speaker 3: that they can then mold to their own needs. If
Speaker 3: I just say I'm bringing you over at lasagna and
Speaker 3: your fridge is full. You don't want to say no,
Speaker 3: but like also you don't really need it. Say how
Speaker 3: can I make your dinner sometime next week or the
Speaker 3: week after? Or would you like me to drop something off?
Speaker 3: They go, you know what, Tuesday in a fortnight, I've
Speaker 3: got nothing on and it would be awesome, And now
Speaker 3: I can plan my shopping around it, so I don't
Speaker 3: haven't just done my shopping and filled the fridge with
Speaker 3: everyone else's stuff. And now it's useful and it's in
Speaker 3: the calendar, and that's good. And sometimes it's like the
Speaker 3: asking and the paying attention in that way can be
Speaker 3: really good, and it helps you work out what's useful
Speaker 3: for people as well, because people like different kinds of help.
Speaker 3: Some people want to walk, somebody want to be on
Speaker 3: a meal, want to laugh, want to just you know,
Speaker 3: I have a yarn on the phone for a few
Speaker 3: hours or whatever, or like text heaps or something. So
Speaker 3: it's good to do those things and.
Speaker 4: Work it out.
Speaker 3: But when you give people some choices, I think that's
Speaker 3: really important.
Speaker 1: I am naturally like I naturally gravitate to being kind
Speaker 1: and trying to make people feel good. About themselves. But
Speaker 1: I find it hard, not so that I find it
Speaker 1: hard to accept. I don't know what kindness looks like
Speaker 1: to me, And I think, well, I didn't until this
Speaker 1: situation with you and I and I think what I
Speaker 1: learned from you and no one else is that what
Speaker 1: kindness feels like to me is maybe I don't know,
Speaker 1: just like a presence, a non judgmental I know it
Speaker 1: was weird. It's weird what you did. You're a very
Speaker 1: weird man.
Speaker 3: Weird, I'm a weirdo. But I think we have a
Speaker 3: really wonderful relationship of just being able to be, you know,
Speaker 3: and you're doing all the time. You've got like you
Speaker 3: want one of the great doers, and there's you're always
Speaker 3: doing stuff, and then we just get to be and
Speaker 3: you don't have to pretend and I don't. I don't
Speaker 3: need you to do anything for me. And so that
Speaker 3: doesn't come with a list of stuff that's strange, that
Speaker 3: is strange them eating spring rolls. We don't really have
Speaker 3: anything that we have to do on a regular base.
Speaker 1: I drove through was that some marm Bina Marmbina where
Speaker 1: we had a great ground.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's been some good ones but.
Speaker 1: You know, I grew my own Vietnamese mint.
Speaker 4: You're going to say, you.
Speaker 1: Spring rubbles your time. I grew my own Vietnamese mint
Speaker 1: because you know, they never give you enough.
Speaker 3: Yep, they never give.
Speaker 1: You enough, and so it goes like wild fire. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: We need to get back into that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but the doing, the doing and the being
Speaker 3: are different, and I'm not a great in general. It
Speaker 3: is different and it's really lovely. It really is nice.
Speaker 1: Where are we going to be next? Let's put it
Speaker 1: in the diary? Can we please?
Speaker 4: Again?
Speaker 1: I'm serious because I've really missed you and I and
Speaker 1: also I just really want to thank you for that
Speaker 1: because it was a fairly lonely time by my own doing,
Speaker 1: because I had these huge areas of my life that
Speaker 1: had changed fundamentally, and I'm so like, I take it
Speaker 1: so seriously making sure that everyone's okay and doesn't feel
Speaker 1: in the dark or I don't know, I just and
Speaker 1: I just didn't know what I was doing. I had
Speaker 1: so much to learn in all the big areas, and
Speaker 1: I just always knew that. It was like I was
Speaker 1: on stage and everything was crazy, and then you were
Speaker 1: just off in the you know side, of stage, just
Speaker 1: you know, no comments, just watching, and that felt very
Speaker 1: nice because and also your timing was extraordinary, because a
Speaker 1: curveball would be thrown at me, or something wouldn't work out,
Speaker 1: or I hadn't quite made the right decision, and then
Speaker 1: you would pop up on my phone and I didn't.
Speaker 1: You know, the protocol is when somebody messages you, you
Speaker 1: message them back. You know, I know that, of course,
Speaker 1: but it was different with you. It was like you
Speaker 1: didn't you didn't expect it, and you were just there
Speaker 1: going remember who you who you are. You know, you're
Speaker 1: still that person even though everything you know it's crazy.
Speaker 1: It's a I mean, everything's great now, but my god, Josh,
Speaker 1: okay far out.
Speaker 3: I think everyone's had those moments where like things are
Speaker 3: going so nasty, like if I lose, if I lose
Speaker 3: grip on this, I won't grip it again.
Speaker 4: And so I've just got to.
Speaker 3: Keep my head down and away from anything that might
Speaker 3: even yeah, tiniess cracking it.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, you've got greasy hands at the
Speaker 1: show and you're helium blow. It's gone. You just watch it.
Speaker 1: I can't ever get that back.
Speaker 3: And everyone, everyone who loves you is is is glad
Speaker 3: to see you come out of the other side, you know.
Speaker 3: And but things will happen again. That will happen, and
Speaker 3: we'll be here again.
Speaker 4: I won't.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to isolate next time. I'm even getting
Speaker 1: I'm getting better at that now, even try.
Speaker 3: It out to see what happens ab test next crisis.
Speaker 3: I come back and go, you know what, Actually, I
Speaker 3: am going on my own again. The third time. I'm
Speaker 3: back on my own. This is the second time was
Speaker 3: rubbish out.
Speaker 1: I asked for help, amazing about three weeks ago. That's
Speaker 1: so good, and I got it. And the person really
Speaker 1: was my sister really loved to help. She was so
Speaker 1: happy to help.
Speaker 4: I learned it.
Speaker 3: It's like a kind of like an urban myth that
Speaker 3: I was told years ago, came up from my in
Speaker 3: my work, and the story is that a son and
Speaker 3: his mum they go next door and they ask the
Speaker 3: name before like a cup of sugar or whatever, and
Speaker 3: they get the cup of sugar and they bring it home,
Speaker 3: and the sun goes along and goes, why do you
Speaker 3: ask them for a cup of sugar, Like we've got sugar?
Speaker 3: And I was like, well, they come and ask us
Speaker 3: for help. I'm only twenty bucks. I need a thing.
Speaker 3: You know, they're not doing as well as we're doing,
Speaker 3: and so they need help. But if it's always just
Speaker 3: there asking for help, they'll get really uncomfortable with it
Speaker 3: over time. So every now and then I ask them
Speaker 3: for something I know they can do, so that it
Speaker 3: doesn't get out of balance and that they feel like
Speaker 3: we're all contributing, because that's what we want. We want
Speaker 3: people to feel like they don't have a benefactor. They
Speaker 3: just have a friend, you.
Speaker 1: Know, right, And so it's in exchange.
Speaker 3: And to give them some agency in that process. And
Speaker 3: I remember I did some work with a family and
Speaker 3: then they invited me for dinner. Was out of scope
Speaker 3: to go to dinner or whatever their house, and I
Speaker 3: was like, a day was a bad you know, it
Speaker 3: was a busy week. It's always a busy week. And
Speaker 3: I was like, and I remember the thing. I was like,
Speaker 3: oh yea, I should go. And it just makes it
Speaker 3: They just people just stay engaged longer if you do
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff as well. And it's not to
Speaker 3: say you need to constantly ask everyone for help, but
Speaker 3: that it is a lovely thing to be trusted enough
Speaker 3: to be asked for help to be deemed competent enough
Speaker 3: for this person who you love to go, hey, can
Speaker 3: I get a can I get a chop out here
Speaker 3: with this? So most of the time people are rapped
Speaker 3: about it. They're wrapped to be asked for help. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and they'll do their very best, you know, to step
Speaker 3: up and give you that help, which is lovely. It's
Speaker 3: one of the great lovely things about friendship.
Speaker 1: It's the best. That's why friendship is a superpower.
Speaker 4: It's so good.
Speaker 1: Tag you and release you back into the world. But
Speaker 1: I do want to talk briefly about just being nice. Project.
Speaker 1: You are an incredibly intelligent man, and you could be
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't even know the names of these
Speaker 1: companies Price Cooper's, Waderhouse that they Deloitte's that's one of them.
Speaker 1: But you could easily be one of those guys, you know,
Speaker 1: moving and Shaken and blue Chips and blue Chip that,
Speaker 1: and you're not. Why. Why is what you do more
Speaker 1: important than what society has told us all is important?
Speaker 3: I just think people deserve help, you know, they just
Speaker 3: deserve a leg up. The question I've always tried to
Speaker 3: answer is like, why don't people get the help that
Speaker 3: they need when they need it, for as long as
Speaker 3: they need it, regardless of how they come to need help.
Speaker 3: And we have this real culture of like deciding who's
Speaker 3: worthy or not worthy, whether we explicitly are in plaicitly
Speaker 3: think about it. We blame individuals a lot for certain
Speaker 3: kinds of problems and not others or certain challenges, and
Speaker 3: we leave people to just flounder like that's part of
Speaker 3: like some kind of come up and for having a
Speaker 3: difficult time, like well, you've got to struggle for ages
Speaker 3: before we'll consider you worthy of help or something.
Speaker 4: And I hate that.
Speaker 3: I've seen so many people who just need help.
Speaker 1: And we all need help.
Speaker 3: We all need it everyone at some point. That's life.
Speaker 1: It's like what I say to my kids if they
Speaker 1: feel sad or if they have a bad day or something.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not here to change that. That's life.
Speaker 1: Don't believe what people tell you that it's got to
Speaker 1: look like an I caa at No, No, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. It doesn't. It doesn't for anybody. What
Speaker 1: you're feeling is very normal. Go to bed. That's my
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: Auperdubo.
Speaker 1: It might be different tomorrow and it might not be,
Speaker 1: but that's the whole landscape of it. So why doesn't
Speaker 1: everybody see that? I know that human beings look at
Speaker 1: people that are, you know, generationally down on their luck
Speaker 1: or struggling, and they go, well, you know, that's a
Speaker 1: you problem.
Speaker 3: I think people are really good at recognizing opportunities that
Speaker 3: they didn't have, and not really good at recognizing opportunities
Speaker 3: that they have had, and not great at like observing
Speaker 3: the way in which the world like helps you out
Speaker 3: and in ways that aren't your fault in a positive way.
Speaker 3: And if you can't, if you take full responsibility yourself
Speaker 3: for every good thing that's ever happened to you and
Speaker 3: ignore all the ways in which you were supported by
Speaker 3: being born in Australia, for instance, hanging through having Medicare
Speaker 3: and you know, having parents that were supportive or you know,
Speaker 3: having an education, whatever, then it gets a lot more
Speaker 3: granular than that. But if you can't recognize that, and
Speaker 3: you're always thinking I did this because I did X,
Speaker 3: y Z, then the advice you're always giving other people
Speaker 3: is what you need to do is blah blah blah,
Speaker 3: and you're not looking around them to go hang on
Speaker 3: a minute. You don't have that supportive parent in your corner.
Speaker 3: You don't have the opportunity to go play footy, you
Speaker 3: don't have the educational opportunities I had in that great
Speaker 3: teaching who brought you along, and the books in the house,
Speaker 3: and you know, the sleep that you've got, the sleep
Speaker 3: that kids in struggling houses don't get. And can you
Speaker 3: imagine the first twelve years of your life not having
Speaker 3: sleep or food.
Speaker 1: Or or some peace, some dedicated clothes to sleep in?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, And and you know, I've seen all of those things,
Speaker 3: and I'm painfully aware of those circumstances. And then we
Speaker 3: tell the story about this kid at five going through
Speaker 3: these things, and everyone's very sad. But that five year
Speaker 3: old becomes a twenty year old, and then at twenty they're.
Speaker 1: Like, well, so why is its life out ye?
Speaker 3: Like, well, you know, I'm amazed at some of these
Speaker 3: people are still up and about. Even if they're not,
Speaker 3: they haven't reached their potential. They haven't been able to
Speaker 3: live up, like live into all these opportunities you know,
Speaker 3: that they could have had otherwise.
Speaker 1: So it's just trying to be easy to feel hopeless
Speaker 1: in that situation because also, everywhere you look, people are
Speaker 1: going you're hopeless.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right. The way that people respond to
Speaker 3: you in the world is a thing that most people
Speaker 3: don't recognize happen. We're talking about code switching and stuff
Speaker 3: where people sort of change how they present in different places.
Speaker 3: But there's also just some people walk through the life
Speaker 3: and no one smiles at them, and no one says
Speaker 3: a kind word to them, and they have no mates,
Speaker 3: and they have no family that's any good, and they've
Speaker 3: been deeply hurt and let down in a million different ways,
Speaker 3: so that even when you rock up with help that
Speaker 3: could be good, would you trust them? You know, do
Speaker 3: you trust? It's never been the case for you, And
Speaker 3: so you don't engage. And then someone goes see you
Speaker 3: don't care, you don't want to do the thing, and
Speaker 3: it's like that's that's not how it works.
Speaker 4: You know, that's not how it works.
Speaker 3: So it's a long it's a long process. But what
Speaker 3: I try to do is teach people like how to
Speaker 3: do it better, how to look at it better, how.
Speaker 1: Do we do it? Because you know, the government throws
Speaker 1: a lot of money, it's some stuff stuff. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: certainly the public gets behind certain cool you know, charities
Speaker 1: and fundraisers. What in your experience is the best change
Speaker 1: making model.
Speaker 3: So the full change making model that are developed a
Speaker 3: JBN would take it takes hours to go through. But
Speaker 3: a couple of like things that I think are really
Speaker 3: useful for people who are wanting to start thinking about it.
Speaker 3: One of them is to, I say, to align your aspirations.
Speaker 3: So whatever you want for the people that you care
Speaker 3: about the most in the world, your kids, your friends,
Speaker 3: your parents, whatever, just want that for everybody else. If
Speaker 3: you want your kids to go to school in a
Speaker 3: castle and have Saturday sports and four instruments and learn
Speaker 3: twelve languages and have tutors every day, just want that
Speaker 3: for everybody else. And then if they don't have it,
Speaker 3: recognize that that's a deficiency that we should all work
Speaker 3: together to remedy. If you want really high quality health
Speaker 3: care for your mum who's really crooked, to be in
Speaker 3: a hospital where she's seen really well for as long
Speaker 3: as she needs to be seen. For everybody else, you know,
Speaker 3: if you want a good job for someone who you
Speaker 3: care about, where they earn enough to be able to
Speaker 3: buy property somewhere and live comfortably and raise a small
Speaker 3: family or whatever. Just want that for everybody.
Speaker 1: Yeah, why should that person that you know deserve that.
Speaker 4: It's not a zero some game.
Speaker 3: We can bring everybody along and up and we don't
Speaker 3: have to like hoard it all ourselves. And then the
Speaker 3: other thing is that, like not all help is the same,
Speaker 3: and so there's a couple of different kinds of help,
Speaker 3: and paying attention to the kind of help that you're
Speaker 3: advocating for giving or receiving will help. So some help
Speaker 3: is like cheering help. But I have to do the
Speaker 3: whole thing. So if I'm going to run a marathon,
Speaker 3: I have to run it from start to finish or
Speaker 3: I haven't run the marathon. You can't run it for me,
Speaker 3: and you can't you can't pick me up and carry me.
Speaker 3: But what you can do is you can provide me
Speaker 3: with things that might help along the way, drink and
Speaker 3: something to eat, and you can cheer me on. And
Speaker 3: that's useful because that's all you can do in that context,
Speaker 3: that kind of thing I'm trying to do, that's how
Speaker 3: you can help. Another kind of help is moving a
Speaker 3: couch and I can't do it on my own, and
Speaker 3: I need you to not cheer and bring me a snack,
Speaker 3: but jump on the other end of the couch, lift
Speaker 3: it up and move it with me. And in that case,
Speaker 3: that kind of help two people doing the thing together
Speaker 3: to actually finish the job. And if you stop in
Speaker 3: the middle, it's kind of useless. And if you cheer
Speaker 3: me on, it's useless.
Speaker 4: And if you.
Speaker 3: Help a little bit, that might be good and you
Speaker 3: run out of time that we may have made some progress,
Speaker 3: but I still haven't finished it. And this other kind
Speaker 3: of help is like a surgery, where someone with skill
Speaker 3: and inside who knows what they're doing has to do
Speaker 3: a job to fix someone or get an outcome. Now,
Speaker 3: if you do a half surgery, that's worse than no surgery.
Speaker 3: You can't just leave someone on the operating table in
Speaker 3: the middle of it. And so if you start helping
Speaker 3: someone on something that's going to require all this assistance
Speaker 3: and knowledge and things to fix the problem and you
Speaker 3: drop out in the middle, you leave them worse than
Speaker 3: they were before, even though you've tried to help and go, oh,
Speaker 3: wasn't some help better than nothing? Not always? So is
Speaker 3: it a couch, is it a marathon? Is it a surgery?
Speaker 3: Know the kind of help you're trying to give someone
Speaker 3: and know whether or not you're able to finish the
Speaker 3: job properly or you're going to give the adequate help.
Speaker 3: And then for almost every kind of help you're trying
Speaker 3: to give, people have more patience than you probably have.
Speaker 3: Drag the timeline out much longer, preferably no end date.
Speaker 3: Just don't put demands on people. Just be there and
Speaker 3: be ready to do whatever needs doing until.
Speaker 1: It's done, and trust that they are a human peace
Speaker 1: agency and hopes and dreams.
Speaker 3: It's not linear. People go forward and down.
Speaker 1: And you know, if people want to get behind JB
Speaker 1: and you get in front of him, scare him. Where
Speaker 1: can we find you?
Speaker 3: All? On the all on the internet everywhere, the Information
Speaker 3: Super Highlight. Yeah, the world Wide Web. It's one of
Speaker 3: the great one of the great innovations. So we're on
Speaker 3: the web. Jbanproject dot com. All my stuff, josh Rea
Speaker 3: Jones dot com. It's my name on everything as well,
Speaker 3: Josh Red Jones.
Speaker 1: You're an excellent person.
Speaker 3: You're an excellent person.
Speaker 1: I want to talk next episode about all the.
Speaker 3: Books you read, oh yea love to.
Speaker 1: And the first question I'm going to ask you when
Speaker 1: we meet again, which will be sooner than a month,
Speaker 1: of course. Is your name is Josh, Yes, your brother's
Speaker 1: name is Israel. Are you jealous? It's one of the great names,
Speaker 1: one of.
Speaker 4: The great blogs. I tell you, he's a ripper.
Speaker 1: Aren't you lucky?
Speaker 4: Very lucky?
Speaker 3: I lucky, We're all very lucky to have you. Thank you,
Speaker 3: Chrissy Swan. You're an angel.
Speaker 4: You are Love you