1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,680 Speaker 1: I'm my Boris and this is strike talk. 2 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 2: So the idea of philosophy be this way of living, 3 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 2: this standard to aspire to strikes me. 4 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 3: It's really interesting and really urgent. 5 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: Ryan Holiday, Welcome to strike talk. Might tell me right 6 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: back to when you first start thinking about this stuff. 7 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 3: I was nineteen or twenty years old. 8 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 2: If you had told me that philosophy was something that 9 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: would be interesting, I would have laughed at you. I 10 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: came to understand that wasn't this dusty, stodgy. 11 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 3: And practical thing. 12 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 2: It was ordinary and extraordinary people alike working to become what. 13 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 3: They're capable of being. 14 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 2: Courage, self discipline, justice and wisdom. Every situation in life, 15 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 2: big and small, is this opportunity to practice those virtues. 16 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: Ryan Holiday, Welcome to strike Talk. 17 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 3: Mat Yeah, thanks for having me. 18 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 1: Where do you come to me from? 19 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 4: Now? 20 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: Where are we talking from? 21 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 3: Right outside Austin, Texas? 22 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: Wow, that's cool. 23 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 4: Everybody wants to live in Texas eas day, I know, 24 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 4: almost living in life for some reason was going on 25 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 4: in New York and l A. Just emptying out into Texas. 26 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 4: What's the deal? Is it tax? Is it bed tax? 27 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,840 Speaker 3: It's it's taxes, it's space. 28 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: You know, it's a it's a bunch of things, some 29 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: good reasons, some not so good reasons. But I'll tell 30 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 2: you I'm I'm very excited to get to Australia this 31 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 2: summer because most people I know that live here flee 32 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 2: Texas during the summer. 33 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 3: It's it's so freaking. 34 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:25,639 Speaker 1: Hot as in your summer. 35 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm coming our summer. I guess your winter. 36 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 2: But it's gonna be uh. You know, last year, I 37 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 2: think we had one hundred days over one hundred degrees fahrenheit, 38 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 2: So it gets pretty hot here. 39 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: So when are you arriving in Australia and what's and 40 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: what's the deal? 41 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 3: Uh? 42 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 2: Middle of July? I think I'm doing it. I think 43 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 2: I'm doing Sydney the last day of July and Melbourne 44 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 2: maybe the first day of August something like that. And 45 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 2: this will be my first appearances there. 46 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 4: And what and what what are you presenting to us? 47 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 4: Like what's your program looking like? The thesis? 48 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: Well, you know, just to just to really get people excited, 49 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: I'm gonna do an hour plus lecture about an obscure 50 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: school of antion philosophy, you know, about as exciting as 51 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: it can get. 52 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 4: Well for me, that actually is exciting for me. So 53 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 4: I quite like, I quite like what we're about to 54 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 4: talk about. I mean, I've read the brief but and 55 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 4: you're only a young guy, which is pretty amazing. 56 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: It's funny. You know, many many years ago, I. 57 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 4: Used to talk about a concept of virtues, used to 58 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 4: go on talking tours in Australia to about virtues, and 59 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 4: a lot of young people, like the younger audiences, didn't 60 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 4: really know what virtues were. They don't even really understand 61 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 4: the word. I mean, and stoicism is sort of somewhat 62 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 4: related to that. Maybe you just take me back a 63 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 4: little bit, and you're already young, but take me back 64 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 4: to the period when you first started becoming interested in 65 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 4: concepts of stoicism. But probably more importantly from my point 66 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 4: of view, this concept of virtues. 67 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: What are virtues? 68 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 4: And you know, where's courage versus you know other things? 69 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 4: Those types of virtues take me right back to when 70 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 4: you first started thinking about this. 71 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 2: I think that's a great question because I relate to that. 72 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 2: You know, when I was nineteen or twenty years old, 73 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 2: if you had told me that virtue was something I 74 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: should care about, or if you told me philosophy was 75 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: something that would be interesting, I would have laughed at you, 76 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 2: you know. And so it wasn't until I read Marcus 77 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 2: Aurelius's Meditations in my college apartment that I came to 78 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: understand that philosophy wasn't this dusty, stodgy, you know, impractical thing, 79 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 2: that it was you know, ordinary and extraordinary people alike, 80 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 2: sort of working to hold themselves to higher standards, to 81 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 2: become what they're capable of being. If there's a line 82 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: in Meditations or Marx Shois talk, he says, fight to 83 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 2: be the person that philosophy tried to make you. And 84 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: so the idea of philosophy not being these abstract questions, 85 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 2: but this way of living, this standard to aspire to, 86 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 2: strikes me as really interesting and really urgent. 87 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 4: You know. 88 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 2: I think when people hear the word virtue, they think, yeah, religion, 89 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: Like car if you say the phrase the cardinal virtues, 90 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 2: people think of, you know, a religious figure, right, they 91 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 2: think of a cardinal. But cardinal comes from the Latin cardos, 92 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 2: which means pivotal, So they're talking about the pivotal virtue. 93 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 2: So that's the other thing. It's not virtue, it's virtues, 94 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 2: and the virtues to the ancient stoics were I think 95 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 2: pretty straightforward and pretty timeless. They were courage, self discipline, justice, 96 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: and wisdom. And the idea was that every situation in life, 97 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 2: big and small, was this opportunity to practice those virtues. 98 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: So if we think of every situation, instead of going 99 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 2: through the life going what can I do here? 100 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 3: What should I do here? 101 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: We think, well, what opportunity do I have to practice 102 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 2: one of these ideas or all four of these ideas? 103 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 2: What is philosophy asking of me? I think that's a 104 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: much more interesting way to approach these, you know, admittedly 105 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 2: very ancient ideas. 106 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 4: How did you get the Marcuisraelis Meditations book? Because I mean, 107 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 4: I'm sixty eight and I more recently bought it maybe 108 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 4: a year ago, and I just look at it every 109 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 4: now and then. It sits on my bedside amongst seven 110 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 4: or eight other books, which I'm sort of reading different 111 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 4: books at different times depending on how I. 112 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: Feel at night. 113 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 4: And you know, so I'm sort of relatively speaking advanced 114 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 4: relative to you when you're you're nineteen? Who who mentioned you? 115 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 4: Or how did you become a cross? Looking at a 116 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 4: book like Marcus Realist's Meditations? Because it's sort of fairly 117 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 4: dense for a nineteen year old. 118 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: That's what I think. 119 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was. 120 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 2: I was at a conference and I went up to 121 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 2: the speaker after and I just said, hey, you know, 122 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 2: are you reading anything interesting? 123 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 3: And then that's how I got pointed. 124 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 2: To the Stoics. And I think, what was so great 125 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 2: about that? I didn't realize that at the time, but 126 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 2: this is how Stoicism has spread for twenty five centuries 127 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 2: that It's been this process of Hey, I got something 128 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: out of this. I think you'll get something out of 129 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 2: it too. And that's one of the interesting passages in 130 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 2: Mark Surrelis's Meditations. Marx rewis being the Emperor of Rome. 131 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 2: He's thanking his teacher Rusticus for having lent him a 132 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 2: copy of the writings of Epictetus, who is his favorite 133 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 2: Stoic philosopher. So if we can think of, you know, 134 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 2: twenty five centuries of people going, hey, check out this book. 135 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: I think it's good. You know, that's what Stoicism is. 136 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 3: You know. 137 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 2: I don't think people are doing that with Heidegger or 138 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 2: Kant or. 139 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 3: Even Aristotle these days. Right. 140 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 2: The idea of philosophy being something closer to self help 141 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 2: is to me really really interesting and I think, you know, 142 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: some people turn up their notes at that, but I 143 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 2: think that's wonderful. 144 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, mean, a lot of people always searching. Some people 145 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 4: in their life, they're always searching. They don't really know 146 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 4: what they're searching for. Do you think that Macros surrealis 147 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 4: is because given that you mentioned earlier on it was 148 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 4: sort of going back to twenty five centuries. I mean, 149 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 4: we probably can go back to the original writings of Stoicism, 150 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 4: which I'm sure go back beyond this, but in terms 151 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 4: of what's available to look at, you can probably go 152 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 4: back to you know, Socrates and Plato and Aristotle back 153 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 4: in the five hundred BC six BC, and I'm sure 154 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 4: it goes beyond that. But this is just what's in 155 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 4: evidence in terms of what's written down. I'm sure there's 156 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 4: lots of other places. There's probably Asian cultures and Egyptian 157 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 4: cultures would go beyond that. But the thing that's most popular, 158 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 4: but it was a bit, it was a bit sort 159 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 4: of complex, and sometimes this stuff could go on for 160 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 4: hundreds and hundreds of pages, especially if you're go and 161 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 4: buy some of the books, some of the writings of 162 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 4: these guys, the thing that I really just did is 163 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 4: that he made it pretty simple in terms of he 164 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 4: gave it to invite sizes. It was sort of like 165 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 4: a practical application of this little tweets. Yeah, that's perfect 166 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 4: nearly yeah, yeah, like little tweets. 167 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: Correct. 168 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 4: It's a mod version of tweets, an old version of 169 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 4: what is my version of tweets? So why do you 170 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 4: think that is important to people? Though? 171 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: Because? Is it because today. 172 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 4: We don't want to sit down and read Plato and 173 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 4: Socrates and Aristota would go on for hundreds and hundreds 174 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 4: and hundreds of pages and it gets very very complex. 175 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 4: Do you think today that we do only one of 176 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 4: digestings and bite size amounts? 177 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 2: You know what, No, I think Marcus Aurelius was doing 178 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 2: the same thing that I'm doing, that that people have 179 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: been doing for thousands of years, which is he was 180 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 2: taking ancient philosophy. And that's kind of a mind blowing 181 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: thing to think about. This was ancient philosophy to Marcus 182 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 2: aureli He's writing in the second century AD, and you know, 183 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 2: the founder of Stoicism was writing in the fourth century BC, right, 184 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 2: and so to him this was already stuff that was 185 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 2: thousands or hundreds of years old. Socrates to him was 186 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 2: older than Shakespeare is to us. Right, And so you 187 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 2: think about what he's doing is his reading this stuff 188 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 2: and then he's trying to digest it and make it accessible, 189 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 2: not to an audience per se. I think that's a 190 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: little different, but to himself. He's what meditations is. These 191 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 2: little bite sized sentences that you're talking about, they're they're 192 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: his summaries and re articulations of the ideas and the 193 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 2: things that he believes and the standards he's trying to 194 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 2: live up to. 195 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 3: That's what he's doing. 196 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 2: It's his private riffing on these you know, timeless ideas. 197 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: And so I think it's always been tough to go 198 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 2: back to the original sources and get exactly what they mean. 199 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 2: And so philosophy, just like music and art and uh 200 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 2: and and all the mediums, is this process of remixing 201 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 2: and rephrasing and re examining, and sometimes it comes out 202 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: very close to the original, and sometimes we come up 203 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 2: with something totally new when we do that. 204 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 4: It's interesting you just mentioned music, and music is one 205 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 4: way of conveying stories or important things to us. And 206 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 4: if I go back, you know, and I don't want to, 207 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 4: and I just. 208 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: Want to stop. We'll stop off because I don't want. 209 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 4: To sort of overload the whole discussion around this particular aspect. 210 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 4: But for me, if I go back and to the 211 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 4: stories of Homer, which predates all of the dudes, sure 212 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 4: Homer had this ability to talk about the philosophical things 213 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 4: that you're talking about, Like, you know, we talk about 214 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 4: virtues and ways of life and things that get us 215 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 4: get us closer to. 216 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: Being better human beings. 217 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 4: But I'm putting into stories like the Iliad and the Odyssey, 218 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 4: and by individuals within those stories, let's call them the 219 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 4: heroes and heroines. Usually they're heroes, but who were able 220 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 4: to endure in terms of endurance for example, and endure 221 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 4: terrible outcomes just to get to a certain point in 222 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 4: their life. And the best one is the Odyssey of 223 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 4: Odysseus trying to get home to his wife. But how 224 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 4: important is it to either put this stuff in by 225 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 4: sized tweet sort of versions, or alternatively, how important it 226 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 4: is it because you're a writer, how important is it 227 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 4: to put this stuff into storylines and an add a 228 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 4: story around it so that people can become interested Because 229 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 4: it can be a little bit dry. Ethan know what 230 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 4: I mean to some people. To you and I we 231 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 4: think is great. 232 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 2: But well, I'm in the middle of reading the Artissey 233 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 2: to my seven year old right now, so I've been 234 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 2: thinking a lot about this. 235 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 1: You're reading Robert Graves's version. 236 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: No, there's an American translator who's actually a biographer of 237 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 2: one of the Stoics. She wrote a biography of Seneca 238 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 2: called her name is Emily Wilson. She did a new 239 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 2: translation a couple of years ago, and she just did 240 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 2: the Iliad as well. The Rabert Graves edition is quite good. 241 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 2: Rapper Graves, I think the Fagels transition I've also read. 242 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 2: But the idea is to me, what I try to 243 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 2: do in my writing is take the ideas of the 244 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 2: Stoics and then demonstrate them through story or illustrate them 245 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 2: through story. So I feel like the Stoics already said 246 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 2: it as good as it can be said. You know, 247 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 2: they've distilled it down to its absolute essence as an 248 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 2: idea or as a statement. But that's not typically how 249 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: humans learn things. There's a reason Jesus spoke in parables. 250 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 2: Abraham Lincoln probably the great you know, American communicator spoke 251 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 2: in terms of stories, right, he would, he would tell 252 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 2: anecdotes to make his point. There's something disarming about a story, 253 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 2: there's something memorable about a story. There's something about the 254 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 2: way we understand things that I think makes stories particularly powerful. 255 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 2: And so what I try to do in my books 256 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,839 Speaker 2: is is take an idea from the Stoics, how they 257 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 2: treated obstacles as opportunities, and then I'll write a book 258 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 2: demonstrating that or or extrapolating that out in the form 259 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 2: of stories from men and women past and present. You know, 260 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 2: great and evil people who who who illustrated that idea 261 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 2: or illustrated the perils of not living that idea. So 262 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 2: that's that's what I try to do in all of 263 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: my books. 264 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 4: It it's interesting you just mentioned the word parables, and 265 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 4: you know, there's been many great storytellers who tell a 266 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 4: story about in parables. When I look at today's leaders, 267 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,719 Speaker 4: and I don't want to let's just concentrate on some 268 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 4: two of your leaders in your country, one of the 269 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 4: biggest nations of the world. 270 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: They doesn't seem to talk in powables. 271 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 4: They sort of seem to me, and I'm not mean 272 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 4: to be mean, but they sort of speak in riddles. 273 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: It's actually they're just confusing. 274 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 2: They make a lot of statements, but they don't they don't. 275 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 2: Not only do they not tell a good story about 276 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: how they want things to go, but they tend not 277 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: to tell real stories. So they'll go I'm speaking of 278 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: Susie as uh uh, a single mother of three living. 279 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 2: You know, they make up these stories about these fake people. 280 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 2: And and what the great leaders throughout history did was 281 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: draw on myths or commonly known stories and use them 282 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 2: as as a way of illustrating ideas or principles. So 283 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 2: so that that is a problem with the collapse of 284 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: the teaching of the classics, of the collapse of the humanities, 285 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: is we we don't We no longer have the same 286 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 2: myths and ideas, you know. Like the last sort of 287 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: thing that kind of pierced the cultural consciousness was probably 288 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 2: like Harry Potter or something. And you can't have the president, 289 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: you know, telling a story about Harry Potter. 290 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 3: It just seems silly. 291 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 2: But you need you need a common you know, you 292 00:14:54,840 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: need a common sort of shared consciousness of figures big 293 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 2: and small. Like that's what's so interesting the founding of America, 294 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 2: that all the American founders were steeped in these ancient 295 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 2: stories about the Greeks and Romans, and so they were 296 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: kind of almost play acting. And so when they would 297 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: say these things that sort of get written down in history, 298 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 2: people who knew their classical history understood, you know, the 299 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 2: plays they were referencing or the historical figures they were 300 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 2: alluding to, and it sort of imbued everything with this 301 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 2: kind of epic noss right, And we lack that today, 302 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: and I think that it makes it hard for us 303 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 2: to come together when we don't sort of share a 304 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: culture in that way. 305 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 4: And do you think it is that because the audience 306 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 4: lacks the general knowledge so much so that the person 307 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 4: speaking to them is no point talking to him about 308 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 4: these epic stories, which, as you said, like Abraham Lincoln, 309 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 4: his audience knew this history and generally speaking that we 310 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 4: was toward the stuff at school. I guess well, parents 311 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 4: talked about it. You know, parents probably told stories because 312 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 4: you know, we didn't have all the other distractions. 313 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: Do you think therefore it's impossible for current leaders to 314 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: be able to. 315 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 4: Do what say someone like Abraham Lincoln did and tell 316 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 4: those to have stories, And therefore our current leaders and 317 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 4: more talking about falsehoods and fakeness and all the short 318 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 4: term stuff that we generally get out of social media. 319 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: Is that the reason I don't. 320 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: Think it's imposs I don't think it's impossible. I just 321 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 2: think it's it's much harder, right. And so that's what 322 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 2: that's what demagogues do or populists do, is they they 323 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 2: they do tell a story which is like, they're those 324 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: people over there, and those people are bad, and those 325 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 2: people are the source of all of the problems and 326 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 2: evils of life, right, And that is a very timeless story. 327 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: The story of the scapegoat is a very sort of timeless, 328 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 2: uh you know, universal. 329 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 3: Sort of trope. 330 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: And so I do think we're seeing some of the 331 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 2: negative of it. But but I think it's been a 332 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 2: while since since any of the major nations had had 333 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 2: a really great leader who could tell a story about. 334 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 3: You know where we're going. 335 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 2: I mean even even even Trump. You know, Trump's saying 336 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 2: make America great again. He's saying, like, make it like 337 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 2: it used to be. He's not able to say, I 338 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 2: here's how I think it should be going forward. So 339 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 2: there there's just something there's something lacking about our ability 340 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 2: to to sort of share ideas or or aspirations that 341 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 2: I do think is a. 342 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 5: Problem if I if I got back, because I'm trying 343 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 5: to work out where you became. 344 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 4: Two things, you developed yourself into a great rata, and 345 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 4: that's a skill, thank you. The second thing is that 346 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 4: what you're write about you also had learned about. And 347 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 4: we've already you've already explained to me that NINETEENA started 348 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 4: with reading the Marcus Releases tweets. But how did you 349 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 4: become a great writer? Because that's a big skill. I mean, 350 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 4: what is the process if you go back to when 351 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 4: you're No. One in twenty how'd you start this process off? 352 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 4: What was you and what were your influences? 353 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 3: Well? 354 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 2: I was I became a writer in a very old 355 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 2: school way in that I was the apprentice to a 356 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 2: great writer. So I was a research assistant to a 357 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 2: writer named Robert Green, who's one of the great nonfiction 358 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 2: writers of the of the twentieth and twenty first centuries. 359 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 2: And I learned the craft from him, and I worked 360 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 2: for him for many years. He showed me how books work, 361 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 2: he showed me how to tell stories, he showed. 362 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 3: Me how to research. 363 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 2: I learned in that way and I think, you know, 364 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 2: today people think it's you know, you throw something up 365 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 2: online and he either finds an audience or it doesn't. 366 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 2: I wrote every day on line for you know, several 367 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 2: years between my first book and hitting a best selling 368 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 2: you know, hitting the New York Times bestseller list was a. 369 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 3: Period of several years. After that. 370 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,239 Speaker 2: It was a It was an apprenticeship literally and then 371 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 2: an apprenticeship figuratively in sort of doing the thing over 372 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 2: and over and over again and learning not just how 373 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 2: to do the thing better, but also how to engage 374 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 2: and interact with an audience. You know, comedians talk about 375 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 2: you just got to get up on stage a lot 376 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 2: of times. 377 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 3: And that is one one advantage. 378 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 2: That the internet, you know, offers people is that it 379 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 2: is possible to get a lot of reps. And I 380 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 2: got a lot of reps in my twenties just writing 381 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 2: and writing and writing and writing, and you know, eventually 382 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 2: that I think that paid off. 383 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 4: It's pretty cool that you got to sort of deal with, 384 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 4: you know, someone write a book as powerful as a 385 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 4: forty forty eight Laws of Power, Like, I mean, that's 386 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 4: not necessarily saying that that book's are exactly my piece 387 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 4: of cake. But none it is a pretty it's a 388 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 4: pretty big deal and great a pretty successful person. Lots 389 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 4: of people always ask me questions about mentorship, so maybe, 390 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 4: you know, maybe you can tell us in a philosophical way, 391 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 4: the philosophy and the philosophy around seeking a mentor and 392 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 4: how you I don't want to use the word make use, 393 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,479 Speaker 4: but how you take advantage of what the mentor has 394 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:25,880 Speaker 4: to offer. 395 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: What does it mean? Mentorship? 396 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 2: It's a weird thing because a mentorship is something essential 397 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 2: and yet it is also something that's a little bit ineffable. 398 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 2: I sometimes I'll get emails from people and they'll say, hey, 399 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 2: will you be my mentor? They say, what's the How 400 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 2: can I find a mentor? And that's not really how 401 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 2: it works, you know. In the old days, yeah, you 402 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 2: would be attached as an apprentice to someone and there 403 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 2: would be a contract and you're basically like an indentured servant. 404 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 2: It doesn't work that way anymore. You have to you 405 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 2: have to show potential, you have to have some momentum 406 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 2: and somebody who needs someone. It's weird to say, like 407 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 2: they'll find you, but that's kind of how it works. 408 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 3: Right. 409 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 2: You don't go around, you don't go to a bar 410 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: and you just ask people, Hey, will you be my girlfriend? 411 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 2: Will you be my boyfriend? Right, it's a process that ensues, 412 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 2: and part of why it ensues is that you show 413 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 2: yourself as someone who's going somewhere right. 414 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 3: And so my. 415 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 2: Relationship with Robert Green began because I was already working 416 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 2: for another author and I was working for someone else 417 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 2: and as sort of we were, you know, in the 418 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 2: same proximity to each other, and he happened to need 419 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 2: one at that time. And you know, I got a shot, 420 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 2: and I think that's really important. You'll get a shot. 421 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 2: It's just what do you do with that shot? And 422 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,719 Speaker 2: I think I managed to take good advantage of it. 423 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 2: And then you have to understand, you know that the 424 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 2: mentor is paying you with the most priceless thing there is, 425 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 2: which is their time, their very hard one insights, and 426 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: so you have to figure out what is it that 427 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 2: you're trying to get out of this thing? 428 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 3: How? 429 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 2: How what is success to you? I find sometimes in 430 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 2: young people that I've worked for, I see something in them, 431 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 2: but I seem to want it for them more than 432 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 2: they want it for themselves. And that can be you know, 433 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 2: that's the death knell to a potential you know, mentor 434 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 2: mentee relationship. 435 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 4: How important is it do you think in terms of 436 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 4: your career and and perhaps more importantly your opportunities, like 437 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 4: you know, mentorship opportunities for example, you know green. 438 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: Is it for you to show value? 439 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 4: So you know, like one thing I know in my 440 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 4: life is that the people that I'm attracted to is 441 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 4: someone who's who's building an awareness campaign, maybe unnaturally not 442 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 4: even realized in doing it, but that's something that's valuable 443 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 4: to me. And as you say, I think mentors choose 444 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 4: the mentee as a party exact. 445 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: So how important because you're putting something you know, you're. 446 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 4: Putting value out there, and obviously someone's will the value. 447 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 4: Did you know you're putting value out there? Did you 448 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 4: actually say I'm going to put value out there or 449 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 4: this is a topic I'm really really interested and I'm 450 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 4: going to become the best at it. 451 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to find something that you're good at 452 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,719 Speaker 2: that maybe other people aren't good at yet that is 453 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 2: a value. 454 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 3: You know. 455 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 2: I'll get emails from people and they'll say like, hey, 456 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 2: I want to work for you, I'll work for free, 457 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 2: I'll do anything. And what they don't understand what you're 458 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 2: saying when you say that to a busy person, is hey, 459 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 2: i'd like you to figure out how you can help me, right, 460 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 2: And I don't have time for that. But if someone 461 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 2: emails me and says, hey, I notice you're doing this thing. 462 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: This other person who's a successful writer is doing this 463 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 2: other thing that I think you should be doing, and 464 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 2: I can do that for you, or hey, why aren't 465 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 2: you doing X Y or z? Or have you thought 466 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 2: about doing X, Y or z. Now, me and that 467 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 2: person might have a conversation because I'd be like, oh, 468 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 2: I didn't think about that, or oh, sure, I'll give 469 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 2: you a shot to do that. And so what I 470 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 2: did are very early on. The reason I was able 471 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 2: to work with all these different authors is I really 472 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 2: I came to understand, you know, how internet marketing worked 473 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 2: and how blogs worked at a time when this was 474 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 2: still very very new. And so I there were so 475 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 2: many things that Robert could teach me, but there was 476 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 2: one thing that I could help him with, and that's 477 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 2: where the exchange. 478 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: And what was that? 479 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 2: What was that I could help him with Internet stuff? 480 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 2: You know, I was the young kid who understood how 481 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 2: computers worked. And some of these authors whose work I 482 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: really admired, you know, didn't have time to figure all 483 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 2: that stuff out, and that's where the exchange happened. 484 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it was so more of the reverse. 485 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 4: It wasn't so much you wanted to ask him to 486 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 4: be your mentor. It was more like he wanted you 487 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 4: to become his mentee because there was something valuable in 488 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 4: exchange for what he needed as well, and because you know, 489 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 4: lots of times. I recently was talking to some real 490 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 4: estate agents and they were saying to me, you know, 491 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 4: how do I become valuable to you know, how do 492 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 4: I get more listings in Australia. You got to get listing, 493 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 4: that's how you make money as a real estate agent. 494 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 4: And I said, well, if maybe you've got to present 495 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 4: yourself as something valuable to these individuals, I suppose just 496 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 4: another transaction that they're all put. 497 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: You know, there's every real estate agent, does. 498 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,640 Speaker 4: You know what's valuable to people in your in your 499 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 4: district and just write about it, you know, and publish 500 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 4: it somewhere wherever. It's on Instagram, I don't care where 501 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 4: you do it, but just get to your audience and 502 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 4: they will select you. I mean, people get selected. 503 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 2: That's how I That's how I got my start as 504 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 2: a writer, before I published a book, before I was 505 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: even writing anything publicly, I started an email list where 506 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 2: I just recommended books that I thought were good, and 507 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 2: over time I developed a small audience of people who 508 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 2: loved books, and at some point I was able to go, hey, 509 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 2: I've recommended hundreds of books to you over the last 510 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: several years and you like some of them. Is there 511 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 2: a chance that you might like this book that I wrote? 512 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 2: And that's what kicked off my career. And so I 513 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 2: think whether it's mentorship or building a client base or 514 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 2: you know, an audience, it's all rooted in this idea 515 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 2: of where are you providing value? And you start there 516 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 2: instead of which is you know it's funny one. That's 517 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 2: one of the laws of the forty eight Laws of Power, 518 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 2: Robert Green says, always appeal to self interest, never mercy 519 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 2: or gratitude. And so when you say, hey, help me, 520 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: I really need something from you, that's not a compelling offer. 521 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 2: But when you say, hey, look what I can do 522 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 2: this is valuable, that's a very that's a much more 523 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 2: compelling thing to say. 524 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 4: And no doubt you've read these the letters of Mackievelli 525 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,239 Speaker 4: to the Prince, which when I used to set up 526 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 4: my business as many many years ago, any young guys 527 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 4: just to come and iced to give them the book. 528 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 4: There was a book with all the let not all 529 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 4: the letters, but some of the letters in and I 530 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 4: used to talk about, Yeah, I used to just say 531 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 4: read this because we used to take over other businesses. 532 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 4: And Mackievelli was about trying to say to the Prince, look, 533 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 4: when you take over another territory, this is the way 534 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 4: you've got to be a lot of people attribute Machiavelian 535 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 4: principles as been quite evil and manipulative. An actual fact, 536 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 4: I don't find him that way. I find them quite 537 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 4: practical practically outcomes. How how do does how do you 538 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 4: see Machiavellian principles sort of panning out? Let's say, for example, 539 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 4: for importance of a business person to have read those principles, 540 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 4: someone who goes and makes buyers business and bill's employment 541 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 4: people and employees, bills, audiences. How important those principles to you? 542 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: Do you think that reallyvant? 543 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 2: I mean, I think they're very principal. I think they're 544 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 2: very principal. And I would actually say Machiavelli was a 545 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 2: very principled game. And this is a guy who's tortured 546 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 2: for his belief that that that Florence actually should be 547 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 2: a republic. He was, he was actually anti prince, but 548 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 2: he was he was smart enough to see how how 549 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,959 Speaker 2: a powerful print should operate. But I think a lot 550 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 2: about this a lot with my books. Look, I love 551 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 2: ancient philosophy. I'm a nerd for these things, but I'm 552 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 2: also very realistic, and I understand that most people are not. 553 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 2: So I spend a lot of time thinking about how 554 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 2: to build my platform. I spend a lot of time 555 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 2: thinking about the titles, the positioning, the pricing, the approaches 556 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 2: of the books, because I'm doing exactly what Machiavelli and 557 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 2: Robert Green talked about, which is, I want to make 558 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 2: it clear that this book is what you need. It's 559 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 2: not what I think you need. I want to make 560 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 2: it clear that this is this is valuable to you, 561 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 2: This does something for you, as opposed to coming at 562 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 2: it the way I unfortunately too many people do, which 563 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 2: is they go, this is really important, and you're an 564 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 2: idiot if you don't know about it right, And No, 565 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 2: you have to meet the audience where they are and 566 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 2: the audience is busy, the audience is distracted, the audience 567 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 2: preconceived notions about things, and you have to find a 568 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: way in. And if you can't be strategic, and I 569 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 2: would say a little bit Machiavellian, you're probably not gonna 570 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 2: make it. 571 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: Would you? 572 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 4: Would you mind explain to the audience, our audience. I'm 573 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 4: given what you just said. What do you say the 574 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 4: difference between some like Machiavelio, not the one of us 575 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 4: knew in but what he's led us said to the 576 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,959 Speaker 4: prince versus, for example, the stall and the process of 577 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 4: say resputant. 578 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 2: I don't know that that's not my uh my area 579 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 2: of expertise historically, but but I think you know what's 580 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 2: interesting about Machiavelli is that Machiavelli was trying to look 581 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: back at history and deduce some patterns, good and bad 582 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 2: that we can learn from. He's not saying you should 583 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 2: do all these things, but he is saying that you 584 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 2: got to be aware of all these things. And that 585 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 2: is a thing I talk a lot about in the 586 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 2: new book, this idea of how having some a pragmatic 587 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 2: streak that if you just think that because you're right, 588 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 2: if you just think that because your cause is just 589 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 2: it's going to succeed, you're going to be sorely mistaken. 590 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 2: At the same time, if your cause isn't right, if 591 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 2: there aren't if there isn't something behind it, if there 592 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 2: isn't some real principles to it, you know, you may succeed, 593 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 2: but I don't think it's going to be a particularly 594 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 2: meaningful and significant success. And so there is a balance there. 595 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 2: I think the Stoics tried to strike it well, you know, 596 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 2: they tried to They tried to understand the ways of 597 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 2: the world and try to inshit a little bit closer 598 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 2: to where they thought it should be. And I do 599 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 2: think we need more people like that. You know, just 600 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 2: tweeting about a problem doesn't do anything about it if 601 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 2: you don't have the power to bring it into existence, 602 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 2: and that is a really important, you know, aspect of 603 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 2: all of this. 604 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 4: You said something really interesting about, you know, how you 605 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 4: set your title, and in twenty twelveies you put out 606 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 4: of the book trust me, I love this one. 607 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: I love you. Trust me. 608 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 4: I'mlyining Confessions of a Medium manipulate. He's plain what the 609 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 4: book was about and obviously gets our attention. The headline 610 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 4: gets the attention, but obviously the headline's more pisstike as 611 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 4: not really what the book's about. 612 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 2: I guess no, I was doing an expose of the 613 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 2: media system. But what I looked at is that there 614 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 2: were a lot of really interesting books of media criticism, 615 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 2: historically and contemporary, but they tended to be read only 616 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 2: by people in the media and therefore had almost no 617 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: impact and did not sell well. And so as I 618 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 2: as I thought about how I was going to position 619 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 2: and write that book, I thought, I want to reach 620 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 2: a bigger audience than that, and so I, you know, 621 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 2: I decided to put some of the ideas in the 622 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 2: book to practice. And you know, to me, if it's 623 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 2: one thing to talk about something, but you've also got 624 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 2: to be you've also got to have some proof that 625 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 2: you know what you're talking about. And that's what I 626 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 2: was trying to do that book. 627 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 4: But was it did you learn something in particular? Because 628 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 4: it's not really philosophical as such, but it's is it 629 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:09,959 Speaker 4: more like a. 630 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 2: Although that is trust me I'm lying. Is the thing 631 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 2: we call the liar's paradox, which is can you trust 632 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: someone who's told you they've they're lying? So it's you know, 633 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 2: I was supposed to be provocative, but but but the 634 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: idea in that book was, look, these are the forces 635 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 2: that are acting on the information that you are consuming. 636 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 2: And and I'm not saying it should be this way. 637 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 2: I'm saying this is the way that it is. And 638 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 2: I know this for a fact because I've not only 639 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 2: seen it, but I've done it. And you know, it's 640 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 2: funny that book came out and and it did do 641 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 2: very well, but there were a lot of people, particularly 642 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 2: people in the media, that said, you know that they've 643 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 2: kind of played a game of shoot the messenger, and 644 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 2: the result was they were slow in making a lot 645 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 2: of the changes that you know, we have needed to 646 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 2: make as a society, and that we're still dealing with 647 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 2: the consequence. So, you know, I have a mixed, you know, 648 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,959 Speaker 2: feeling about that book, you know, twelve years after it 649 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 2: came out. 650 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 3: But what it did what I wanted. 651 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 2: It to do, which was it it made public things 652 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 2: that I felt like were kind of open secrets in 653 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 2: that industry. 654 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: So your new book, what's your new book called? Which 655 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: you are about to release? 656 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: So I've been doing this this series on the Cardinal Virtue. 657 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 2: So I did a book on courage. I did a 658 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 2: book on self discipline, and this new one is about 659 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 2: the virtue of justice. It's called right thing right now, 660 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 2: good values, good character, good deeds. 661 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 4: That's a very interesting one given the American situation politically 662 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 4: at the moment in terms of justice. Can you give 663 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 4: me a little bit of annoyed about the thesis in that 664 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 4: particular book that won on justice? 665 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 2: Well, I agree with your sentiment about the American situation, 666 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 2: but I very much wrote a book that's not about 667 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 2: legal justice. I tried to write a book about about 668 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 2: the more personal form of justice, the standards we hold 669 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,719 Speaker 2: ourselves to, the principles we act with. That Mark Suwas 670 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 2: said that basically the purpose of life was good character 671 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 2: and acts for the common good. And to me, that's 672 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 2: a much more urgent definition of justice than the one 673 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 2: we think about, which is, you know, what did the 674 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 2: jury say, What did the judge say, what does the 675 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 2: law say. It's not that these things aren't important, of 676 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 2: course they are. The justice system is the cornerstone of 677 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 2: a free and fair society. And yet just because something 678 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 2: is illegal or not illegal doesn't mean it's right or 679 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 2: it's wrong. There's something above and below that the sort 680 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 2: of standards we hold ourselves to that I think are 681 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 2: much more important. 682 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 4: And I mean, I have a view that the law 683 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 4: is just legal fiction. It's fictions turn into legislation by 684 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 4: parliaments precedents, which you know should actually reflect the sorts 685 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 4: of philosophical points that you're making. So justice and legal 686 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 4: system should reflect what's your book and justice talk about. 687 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 4: But unfortunately it's forever failing us these days. 688 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 1: I want to go back to the first book, the 689 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: book I think it was on courage. 690 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 4: Yes, okay, it's a very difficult concept courage, And I 691 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 4: remember reading once and I think it was Aristotle said this, 692 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 4: but courage sits somewhere between recklessness and cowardice, but not 693 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 4: in the middle. So how do we how do we 694 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 4: work out what courage is, particularly at a personal level? 695 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, Aristotle was that's the famous Golden mean or the 696 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 2: Aristotilian mean, the idea that the virtues often set between 697 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 2: two vases. 698 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 3: And I think is right. 699 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 2: Look, the virtues are inseparable from each other, right, because 700 00:35:52,719 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 2: courage in pursuit of in unjust gore is not courage 701 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 2: as a virtue. Right discipline, disciplined commitment to the wrong 702 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 2: idea is also not wisdom, right, and so so the 703 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 2: virtues all kind of balance each other out. But but 704 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 2: I agree, you know, courage isn't just recklessly charging into battle. 705 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 2: It's not putting pushing all your chips into the middle 706 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 2: of the table. On every hand, it's it's knowing what's important. 707 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 2: It's knowing what the right amount is, and it's knowing 708 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 2: when you're going to put you know, your ass on 709 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 2: the line, so to speak. And so when when we 710 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 2: think about courage, it's easy to think of courage and isolation, 711 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,240 Speaker 2: but of course what that courage is pursuing is where. 712 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 3: Justice comes in. 713 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 2: So it's been an interesting series to do because it's 714 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 2: hard to say where one virtue begins and the other ends. 715 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:50,240 Speaker 1: And it becoes. 716 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 4: You know, some we are younger people in particular, but 717 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 4: continually continuously confronted with that person is being aloki to 718 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 4: the at least being said they're courageous. It could be 719 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 4: an an NFL player, it could be a rugby league player, 720 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 4: it could be a basketball it could be a business person. 721 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 4: You know, and we get these iconic people up there 722 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 4: that we sort of in social media sort of does 723 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 4: this to us, tries to force the young people to 724 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 4: look to that individual as someone who represents all forms 725 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 4: of courage. Yeah, we don't know anything about their their story, 726 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 4: and I find courage to be one of the most 727 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 4: challenging things to explain to younger people. And your book 728 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 4: doesn't go through it like in a in a deep 729 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 4: storytelling way. 730 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 3: It does, it does. 731 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 2: I tried to look at examples of of, you know, 732 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 2: just overcoming simple fear. I tried to look at it 733 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 2: as you know, sort of taking severe risks in the 734 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 2: endurance required to sustain that courage. And then I wanted 735 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 2: to look at that sort of true selfless courage, you know, 736 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,760 Speaker 2: when when people give everything in pursuit of an idea 737 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 2: or a country or a cause. So yeah, I think 738 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 2: courage it's hard. It's hard to distill courage down to 739 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 2: a tweet. That's why I wrote a whole book about it, right, 740 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 2: It's it's a tough thing to wrap your head around, 741 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 2: but it's hard. It's also hard to find, uh, a 742 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 2: country or a cause or a tradition that doesn't hold 743 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 2: courage up as one of the most important of the virtues. 744 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,720 Speaker 2: So I think courage is is this, you know, courage 745 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 2: is one of those things that you you can't give 746 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 2: it a simple definition, but we also seem to know 747 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 2: it when we see it. 748 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 4: Well, we're looking forward to seeing you in July when 749 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 4: you come out to Australia's any Melbourbrisman and I'm sure 750 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:37,320 Speaker 4: the dates all be coming up shortly and we'll be 751 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 4: able to put up on our website just quickly. Your 752 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 4: one hour talk. Are you going to talk about your 753 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,839 Speaker 4: last the last the latest book in the previous two books? 754 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 4: Are you going to just give us a full rundown 755 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 4: of the the you know, the four sort of categories 756 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 4: you want to talk. 757 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:51,479 Speaker 3: About I want to talk about. 758 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 2: I want to talk about all the ideas in Stoic 759 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,720 Speaker 2: philosophy and how we can apply them to our actual lives, 760 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,320 Speaker 2: which to me is what what philosophy is all about. 761 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 4: Well, it's going to be awesome and and I'm going 762 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 4: to try to get one of those three because I'm 763 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 4: always traveling around the joint. So I'd love to hear 764 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 4: you and good luck, Jan Thanks very much for coming 765 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:09,720 Speaker 4: on today. It's been awesome. 766 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Mark, I appreciate it.