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Speaker 1: From the newsroom and news.

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Speaker 2: Still come to the.

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Speaker 3: Good Day There.

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Speaker 1: I'm Andrew Bucklow.

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Speaker 3: Home invasions are on the rise in Victoria, and as

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Speaker 3: a result, sober calls for tougher self defense laws.

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Speaker 1: Supporters want homeowners to.

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Speaker 3: Have more power to fight back against intruders, but critics

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Speaker 3: fear it could feel more violence. In this episode, will

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Speaker 3: break down what the law actually says and what changes

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Speaker 3: people are pushing for. And then we're going to hear

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Speaker 3: from a Victorian dad whose worst nightmare came true last

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Speaker 3: year when two intruders broke into his family home in

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Speaker 3: the dead of the night.

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Speaker 4: I actually came arms with a machete and the gun.

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Speaker 4: It's actually a good thing we didn't confront them because

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Speaker 4: we wouldn't have been aware of what they were carrying

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Speaker 4: in the potential consequences.

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Speaker 3: Were Joining me now is Doctor's Anthony Mallert, a highly

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Speaker 3: respected criminologist from c Q University.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 3: Good to be We've seen some really concerning stats coming

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Speaker 3: out of Victoria. Aggravated residential burglaries have doubled in recent years.

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Speaker 3: Now these are breakings where offenders are armed or while

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Speaker 3: people are at home, which is particularly terrifying. What factors

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Speaker 3: do you think of driving that sharp increase.

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Speaker 2: Well, I do think we've seen an increase in youth crime,

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Speaker 2: youth gangs, and certainly that's something that a number of

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Speaker 2: states and territories have been wrestling with. Across Australia. We've

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Speaker 2: also seen an increase in weapons being used, so knives, machetes,

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Speaker 2: and this is something obviously the police, parliamentarians and also

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Speaker 2: the community is very aware of as a growing problem

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Speaker 2: across the country.

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Speaker 3: Is there any one thing in particular we can pinpoint though,

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Speaker 3: as to why these aggravated burglaries are increasing.

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Speaker 2: I think almost in some ways, the violence is becoming normalized.

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Speaker 2: If you think a few years ago, then if somebody

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Speaker 2: were harmed during a burglary, you think of that as

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Speaker 2: a burglary gone wrong, Whereas now it seems that violence

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Speaker 2: is almost an inherent part of those activities, and so

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Speaker 2: I think there's a lot less fear on the parts

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Speaker 2: of the people undertaking these crimes, these robberies. There aren't

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Speaker 2: really any disincentives at the moment. That's something that was

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Speaker 2: obviously another big topic of discussion. So I think the

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Speaker 2: problem is that there's no real reason to not engage

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Speaker 2: in these activities, and violence has become a significant part

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Speaker 2: of that.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about that.

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Speaker 3: Under current Victorian laws, what can a homeowner legally do

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Speaker 3: to defend themselves if someone breaks in, whether that person

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Speaker 3: is armed or unarmed.

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Speaker 2: So you are allowed to protect yourself. You're allowed to

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Speaker 2: act proportionally, which is a bit of a vague notion,

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Speaker 2: because how do you demonstrate that you are, in fact

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Speaker 2: your response is proportional given the stress that you would

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Speaker 2: be under. So you can protect yourself, you can protect others.

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Speaker 2: You can act immediately before you think an attack is

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Speaker 2: about to happen, for example, but you can't initiate if

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Speaker 2: you don't feel immediately threatened. So it always has to

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Speaker 2: be proportional, and you then have to be able to

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Speaker 2: defend that if somebody breaking in is harmed, you have

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Speaker 2: to be able to demonstrate that.

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Speaker 1: You've mentioned proportional.

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Speaker 3: There who decides what counts as reasonable and proportional?

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Speaker 1: Who determines that? How is it judged exactly?

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Speaker 2: Well, initially that would be the police would judge whether

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Speaker 2: they thought that your response was proportional. Depends on what

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Speaker 2: harm was caused to the other person, and ultimately, if

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Speaker 2: you were charged, that may come down to a court

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Speaker 2: and you may have to defend yourself using self defense

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Speaker 2: as your pillar, and demonstrate that you felt a genuine

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Speaker 2: threat to you or your loved one or property, and

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Speaker 2: that you would have to argue that you did behave

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Speaker 2: proportionally under those circumstances.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty tough, isn't it. If you were having someone

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Speaker 3: breaking into your house, you worried they're going to hurt

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Speaker 3: your family, their armed, It's hard to kind of stop

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Speaker 3: in the moment and go, now, what's a proportionate response

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Speaker 3: to you just obviously are freaking out, you want them

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Speaker 3: the hell out of your house, or you want to

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Speaker 3: cause harm to.

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Speaker 2: Them exactly, And a lot of people I think would

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Speaker 2: understand that. But one of the things that you have

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Speaker 2: to do is you would have to retreat. So say

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Speaker 2: that person breaks in and then they leave and they're

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Speaker 2: running away, it wouldn't be considered proportional if you chase

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Speaker 2: them and harm them because you had the opportunity to retreat.

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Speaker 2: So that is one of the things that would be

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Speaker 2: looked at, is like, what did you do when the

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Speaker 2: situation potentially changed? Did you back off? Was this purely

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Speaker 2: a protective mechanism or were you actively involved in seeking harm.

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Speaker 3: How does the law in Victoria currently differ to say,

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Speaker 3: the law in the UK and the US, because it's

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Speaker 3: very different overseas.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's particularly different in the US, as I'm sure

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Speaker 2: you'd imagine. I think people are a lot more open

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Speaker 2: to protecting their territories and their families. There's a lot

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Speaker 2: more weapons in the home, for example, so it is

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Speaker 2: a very different picture. And one of the main differences

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Speaker 2: across many states in the US is that you don't

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Speaker 2: have to retreat if possible before using deadly force, so

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Speaker 2: you can actually be more active, i would say, in

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Speaker 2: your defense of others and your home and yourself than

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Speaker 2: you can in Australia, and I think that's probably the

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Speaker 2: big difference.

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Speaker 3: There are calls at the moment to adopt harsher laws

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Speaker 3: here in Vicvitoria and I guess some other Australian states

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of that push, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I can see why the community would be calling for that.

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Speaker 2: We've certainly seen a spike in very violent home invasions,

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Speaker 2: even very recently, very concerning behavior by gangs of individuals,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're carrying weapons, they are causing a lot

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Speaker 2: of fear in the community. What I don't want to

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Speaker 2: see there is a knee jerk reaction changes to legislation,

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Speaker 2: for example, without thinking through what the implications may be.

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Speaker 2: So certainly I think we need to look at what

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Speaker 2: is happening and why, but do so in a very

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Speaker 2: measured way and make sure that everyone is being considered

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Speaker 2: in that, so the parliamentarians, the police, the communities, everyone

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Speaker 2: having a say in what the solution might be to

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Speaker 2: reduce this type of violent crime.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that if we did adopt harsher laws

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Speaker 3: similar to say, what they have over in the US

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Speaker 3: in the moment, that it would actually deter people from

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Speaker 3: attempting break ins.

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Speaker 2: It's possible, but it may have other effects as well.

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Speaker 2: You know, we've seen changes to bail laws for example.

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Speaker 2: You know, we're waiting to see whether that is going

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Speaker 2: to have a main impact, especially on youth crime, because

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Speaker 2: we're talking a lot of young people are the ones

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Speaker 2: committing these crimes. So I think that changes making harsher

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Speaker 2: penalties may be part of the solution for some really

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Speaker 2: serious offenders, but for most offenders, we need to capture

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Speaker 2: them before they become serial offenders, and divert them away

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Speaker 2: and give them other opportunities. And I know that a

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Speaker 2: lot of people would say that's soft, but we know

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Speaker 2: that simply sending young people to prison doesn't actually solve

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Speaker 2: the problem. It further criminalizes them. But we do have

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Speaker 2: to protect the community, so I think it has to

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Speaker 2: be quite a broad approach, and it's going to take

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Speaker 2: a long time. We're talking about redirecting a lot of

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Speaker 2: these young people whilst also dealing with the most hardened

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Speaker 2: and most violent offenders that we currently have.

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Speaker 3: Last week, a libertarian MP in Victoria introduced a motion

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Speaker 3: for a review of the state's self defense laws. He

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Speaker 3: wanted them broad closer to the UK model, which allows

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Speaker 3: householders to use lethal force if they genuinely believe it's

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Speaker 3: necessary to protect themselves or others inside their home. Victoria's

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Speaker 3: Attorney General, Sonya Kilkenny didn't agree with the plan.

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Speaker 2: Our self defense laws here in Victoria are proportionate.

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Speaker 3: The motion was narrowly defeated, falling short by just one vote,

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Speaker 3: with some MPs warning it could create a recipe for

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Speaker 3: more violence. Stick around in just a moment. We'll hear

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Speaker 3: from a Victorian man whose home was broken into last

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Speaker 3: year while his family were inside. He'll tell us what

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Speaker 3: he thinks needs to change to keep people safe.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back. Well.

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Speaker 3: Late last year, Ben Mansfield lived every homeowner's worst nightmare.

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Speaker 3: Intruders broke into his house in Armadale in Victoria as

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Speaker 3: he and his wife and their two boys, aged ten

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Speaker 3: and seven, slept inside. He was an experience that shattered

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Speaker 3: his family's sense of safety, and he joins me now

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Speaker 3: to tell me all about it. Thank you so much

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Speaker 3: for coming on the podcast.

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Speaker 4: Ben, Thank you very much. It's good to be here.

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Speaker 3: So in December, thieves broke into your home. You and

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Speaker 3: your family were inside. Run me through in detail what happened.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so it was the early hours of the morning.

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Speaker 4: I think it was about two or three am. We

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Speaker 4: were awoken through some noises at the back of the house.

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Speaker 4: Our dogs started barking. The dogs settled down relatively fast. However,

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Speaker 4: we hurt another bang. So I got up and I

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Speaker 4: went to have a look and found that our laundry

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Speaker 4: door was wide open. I immediately looked out. I came to

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Speaker 4: the front of the house to look at what might

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Speaker 4: be going on and saw that our Maserati was stolen,

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Speaker 4: went back into the kitchen and then realized that my

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Speaker 4: partner's handbag was also stolen, So they had basically come

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Speaker 4: in via the dog door and then stolen the handbag

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Speaker 4: and subsequently stole the car. The police came immediately, They

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Speaker 4: were fantastic. We were trying to track them through the

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Speaker 4: various phone apps, etc. But were unable to do so,

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Speaker 4: and then about a week later they found the car

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Speaker 4: abandoned and it was absolutely written off. I think the

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Speaker 4: scary part in looking at the CCTV is they actually

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Speaker 4: came armed with a machete and a gun. Really, and

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Speaker 4: I think it's actually a good thing we didn't confront

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Speaker 4: them because we wouldn't have been aware of what they

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Speaker 4: were carrying in the potential consequences. So yeah, quite true, tizing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that must be pretty terrifying to know

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Speaker 3: that they were armed intruders in your house while your

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Speaker 3: kids were asleep.

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Speaker 4: Exactly right. My son's bedrooms were basically along the pathway

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Speaker 4: where they came into the house, and one of my

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Speaker 4: son's bedroom are but the laundry, and they were absolutely terrified.

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Speaker 4: They're still terrified till today. You know, it has lesson. However,

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Speaker 4: there's a routine that we go through every day and

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Speaker 4: how much we have to lock up the house, and

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Speaker 4: it's always at the back of your mind. You know

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Speaker 4: you actually it's not you don't feel safe. It's that

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Speaker 4: you you're hyper vigilant that something like this can happen,

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Speaker 4: because it has. But importantly it has continued to happen

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Speaker 4: throughout my streets ever since.

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Speaker 1: Tell me more about the impact it has had on

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Speaker 1: your kids.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, my youngest doesn't sleep in his own but still

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Speaker 4: by himself. He is always worried about whether the gate

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Speaker 4: shut and whether the dog doors locked. He was scared

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Speaker 4: that the criminals were actually going to hurt us, and

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Speaker 4: in particular, Steel, his little his karate metal that he's

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Speaker 4: so proud of. So look, it's definitely stayed with them.

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Speaker 4: And I think a lot of the things that we

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Speaker 4: try to do off the back of it has to

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Speaker 4: try to normalize the situation. And through my work, I

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Speaker 4: run a company called terror Rosster Impact Advisors, and leveraging

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Speaker 4: my sort of corporate career, I've really focused around how

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Speaker 4: you can really drive and reinstate that the concept of

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Speaker 4: a thriving community and safety and security is part of it. However,

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Speaker 4: unless you provide the quality housing in the social cohesion

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Speaker 4: those other areas around it, it's very hard to combat.

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Speaker 4: So trying to normalize it through my work with my

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Speaker 4: children has been one way, but then the other way

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Speaker 4: to also say that, you know, as a parent, I'm

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Speaker 4: playing an active role to try to help actually solve

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Speaker 4: this issue in an ecosystem of a number of other

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Speaker 4: issues that we're seeing socially at the moment.

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Speaker 1: Were the people who broke into your house court and charged?

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Speaker 4: Yes, they were caught and charged. The police actually knew

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Speaker 4: who the offenders were after seeing the CSATV footage. The

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Speaker 4: police also commented that they went immediately to the perpetrators' homes.

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Speaker 4: They basically just confessed the crime in front of them.

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Speaker 4: They were charged about six six months later, and this

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Speaker 4: was probably a month ago now where it occurred. They'd

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Speaker 4: faced court. It was a seventeen year old and a

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Speaker 4: fourteen year old. They had close to three hundred offenses

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Speaker 4: between the two of them already to date. The fourteen

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Speaker 4: year old was let off with a warning and the

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Speaker 4: seventeen year old was sentenced to eight months in juvenile detention.

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Speaker 3: So there was a motion to review Victoria's self defense laws,

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Speaker 3: which was defeated by one vote in Parliament last week.

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Speaker 3: Despite that, there are still calls for stronger laws.

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Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that.

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Speaker 4: Look, I don't think one thing is going to solve it.

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Speaker 4: I think anybody who comes into your house that's armed,

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Speaker 4: you probably have a right to defend yourself. But the

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Speaker 4: reality is if somebody comes in with a gunner a

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Speaker 4: machete and you don't have that, it's quite hard to

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Speaker 4: combat it. So I think you've got to pass certain

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Speaker 4: things like the ability to protect yourself in the home,

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Speaker 4: the ability to actually properly punish you if you like.

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Speaker 4: The youth offenders, and when I speak about that, just

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Speaker 4: quickly they're committing these crimes. There's reasons behind that, but

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Speaker 4: one of the things that happens is they're leaving damage.

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Speaker 4: They're leaving damage that cost money. So one mechanism that

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Speaker 4: I floated for a while, and I also spoke to

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Speaker 4: very senior people in the ATO about this, was actually

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Speaker 4: taxing the parents of the children and also the children

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Speaker 4: to actually repay the damages over a period of time,

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Speaker 4: because that's really what it's costing society. But then also

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Speaker 4: the broader issues around mandatory jail time in an adult prison. Yes,

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Speaker 4: that's a short term measure, but I don't think it

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Speaker 4: socially fixes or a phaced with. And when you look

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Speaker 4: at examples in other cities that this happened, like Western Sydney,

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Speaker 4: it was a very low socioeconomic area, but the government

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Speaker 4: of the time recognized that to really ensure the integration

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Speaker 4: of social housing, you need to have great education, you

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Speaker 4: need to have sport, you need to have industry, and

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Speaker 4: therefore you actually start to really work on how you

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Speaker 4: rebuild the communities from a values perspective, and it doesn't

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Speaker 4: get rid of all of the poor behavior. However, I

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Speaker 4: think the government needs to look at this holistically and

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Speaker 4: also needs to ensure that the police actually have the

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Speaker 4: ability one to have the right resources and two to

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Speaker 4: actually prosecute these people effectively, because whilst they came to

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Speaker 4: my house rapidly, there's a lot of people who they

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Speaker 4: just don't have the capacity to get to that fast.

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Speaker 4: So the police are under resource, but they're also you'll,

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Speaker 4: equipped to deal with the challenges that they faced with.

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Speaker 3: And what's great, Ben is that you are clearly looking

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Speaker 3: at not only what you want the laws to change

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Speaker 3: for the homeowner's point of view, but also to stop

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Speaker 3: these people, these youngsters offending in the first place. I

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Speaker 3: think there are so many people who would be a

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Speaker 3: victim of these crimes, who were just out for revenge.

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Speaker 3: But you seem to understand that if you can give

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Speaker 3: them a good enough life in the first place so

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Speaker 3: they don't need to do this, then it's going to

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Speaker 3: cut down on the crime in the first place.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, I think youth crime is really a symptom

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Speaker 4: of a systemic sort of breakdown. To look at it

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Speaker 4: in isolation is one thing, but it actually does really

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Speaker 4: signal deep up community and government level deficits. So if

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Speaker 4: you look at housing and security and unemployment and disconnection

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Speaker 4: from education and community infrastructure, there areas actually solves that

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Speaker 4: really try to focus on how can get that sorty

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Speaker 4: the pathways the accessibilities of those things. The most importantly

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Speaker 4: reiterate back to government that you've got to take a

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Speaker 4: place based investment lens on this, but also a social

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Speaker 4: and economic productivity lens on them as well, so that

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Speaker 4: way you can really strategically go about how you solve

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Speaker 4: the issue, but importantly measure what the impact is rather

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Speaker 4: than looking at one figure that is, well, chrime's going up.

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Speaker 4: But yes, that's right, but what about these other areas.

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Speaker 4: I do a lot of this, and I've said previously

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Speaker 4: that my work is intersected with this. But really, to

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Speaker 4: get a community thrive, you can't just think about crime

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Speaker 4: and safety and security. You've got to think about that

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Speaker 4: in the context of housing, healthcare, social resilience, sporting to

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Speaker 4: really actually solve a much broader issue and a challenge.

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Speaker 4: But in the short term there's a need to do

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Speaker 4: something to sort of stem the issue. But that's got

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Speaker 4: to be done as part of a holistic solve and

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Speaker 4: in this sort of matter.

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Speaker 3: Well, Ben, I'm so sorry that you and your family

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Speaker 3: had to go through what you did, but thank you

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Speaker 3: so much for taking the time to tell us all

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 4: I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 3: Well. I think it's clear there's no simple solution to

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Speaker 3: this problem. But I'll tell you what something does need

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Speaker 3: to change, and it needs to change soon, because everyone

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Speaker 3: has a right to feel safe inside their own home.

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Speaker 1: All right, thank you so much for listening. I will

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Speaker 1: chat to you again on Monday. Follow us Subscribe to

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Speaker 1: from the Newsroom wherever you get your podcasts,