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Speaker 1: You can listen to the Front on your smart sneaker

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Speaker 1: every morning to hear the latest episode. Just say play

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Speaker 1: the news from the Australian. From the Australian, here's what's

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Speaker 1: on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. It's Wednesday, July thirty one.

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Speaker 1: Drama in the bush as regional airline REX fights to

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Speaker 1: stay in the air.

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Speaker 2: REX is in a.

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Speaker 1: Trading halt amid fears it's on the brink of collapse,

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Speaker 1: but it's the only carrier on dozens of routes to

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Speaker 1: remote locations. Inflation numbers come out today and it's not

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Speaker 1: going to be pretty. Analysts they're expecting a jump in

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Speaker 1: price growth to three point eight percent in the year

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Speaker 1: to June, raising fears of yet another interest rate rise

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Speaker 1: next week. You can be the first to know when

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Speaker 1: the figures come out at the Australian dot com. Dorau

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Speaker 1: John Perros was acquitted of murdering his ex girlfriend Shandy Blackburn.

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Speaker 1: Then a coroner said he did in fact kill Shandy. Now,

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Speaker 1: a defamation case by Paris against The Australian poses the

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Speaker 1: question is it okay for journalists to question the finding

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Speaker 1: of a jury? Today, Day two of Paris's bold bid

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Speaker 1: to show his reputation was seriously harmed by the Australians

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Speaker 1: podcast Shandy Story. John Perros has always denied wrongdoing. It's

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Speaker 1: one of the most harrowing cases in Australian history.

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Speaker 3: I just yelled out as anyone got a torch, then

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Speaker 3: goo's got my baby.

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Speaker 4: The verdict in Missus Chamberlain's case guilty for mister Chamberlain guilty.

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Speaker 5: Missus Chamberlain was then sentenced to life in Chris.

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Speaker 3: Today it has ended with the fourth Coronial inquest finding

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Speaker 3: that Azaria Chamberlain was killed by dingo, as her parents

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Speaker 3: had claimed from the beginning.

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Speaker 1: The story of Lindy Chamberlain and her husband Michael, whose

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Speaker 1: nine week old baby Azaria died at Ularu in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty It's one of our greatest miscarriages of justice. A

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Speaker 1: family's life ruined by a wrongful conviction. A jury found

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Speaker 1: them guilty. Three decades later a coroner, examining fresh evidence,

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Speaker 1: said they were not guilty. This is Coroner Elizabeth Morris

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Speaker 1: in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 6: Please accept my sincere sympathy on the death of your

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Speaker 6: special and loved daughter, insists her Azaria. I'm so sorry

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Speaker 6: for your loss time does not remove the pain and

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Speaker 6: sadness of the death of a child.

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Speaker 1: The case of Azaria Chamberlain was invoked in the Queensland

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Speaker 1: Supreme Caught on Wednesday by Justice Peter Applegarth. He's hearing

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Speaker 1: another case where a jury's decision went the opposite way

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Speaker 1: to a coroner.

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Speaker 2: The coroner found the dingo did it? A Darwin jury

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Speaker 2: finds Lyndy Chamberlain did it. The coroner was right.

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Speaker 1: This is the matter of John Perros. He was acquitted

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Speaker 1: by a jury in twenty nineteen of murdering his ex

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Speaker 1: girlfriend Shandy Blackburn, but he was found by a coroner

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty to be the murderer. We're using a

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Speaker 1: voice actor to bring you the judge's words as spoken

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Speaker 1: in court.

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Speaker 2: So don't we have something similar here that the jury acquitted.

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Speaker 2: The tone of episode thirteen is doing their duty. They

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Speaker 2: should have acquitted on the evidence that was before them,

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Speaker 2: but the coroner made these findings on additional evidence.

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Speaker 1: The judge was questioning David Helvajian, a barrister representing John

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Speaker 1: Perros in his defamation case. Sparked by the Australians Blockbuster

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Speaker 1: investigative podcast Shandy's story. Peros has always denied killing Shandy,

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Speaker 1: just as Applegarth is asking this. Just like in the

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Speaker 1: Chamberlain case, the jury in John Perros's case did not

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Speaker 1: have the same evidence that the coroner was later able

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Speaker 1: to consider. The podcast pointed this out and even quoted

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Speaker 1: Shandy's mother saying if she was on the jury, she

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Speaker 1: would probably have acquitted Perros because the evidence just wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: So the judge wants to know. Isn't the podcast allowed

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Speaker 1: to point this out? Here's what David Helvajian, representing John Perros,

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Speaker 1: told the court.

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Speaker 5: My submission still stands that Episode thirteen causes serious harm

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Speaker 5: because of the removal of any doubt. It imputes murderer

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Speaker 5: and tells a listener why they can be sure of murderer.

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Speaker 1: This case is a big deal, not just for us

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Speaker 1: at The Australian, but for journalism more generally. If a

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Speaker 1: jury makes one finding and a coroner makes another, how

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Speaker 1: are journalists supposed to report? Shandy Blackburn was left to

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Speaker 1: die in a gutter in the North Queensland tropical city

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Speaker 1: of Mackay in February twenty thirteen. She'd been stabbed more

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Speaker 1: than twenty times as she walked home from work. Her

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Speaker 1: ex boyfriend, John Perros was charged and acquitted of the murder,

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Speaker 1: but a coroner who compelled Perros to give evidence found

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Speaker 1: he did stab Shandy to death. That would have been

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Speaker 1: the end of it, because once acquitted, Peros could not

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Speaker 1: be tried again without fresh evidence, until investigative journalist Headley

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Speaker 1: Thomas came along with his twenty twenty one podcast for

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Speaker 1: the Australian Shandy's Story. This is a moment from episode

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Speaker 1: one of shandy Story.

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Speaker 7: Shandy and John were sometimes in passionate all consuming love,

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Speaker 7: ended up times in deep self doubting despair at their exhausting,

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Speaker 7: abusive rows. The jealousies were toxic. John had made no

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Speaker 7: secret of what he called his serious trust issues.

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Speaker 1: In that first episode, Headley explored doubts over who really

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Speaker 1: killed Shandy.

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Speaker 7: I've interviewed Mackay, friends of John Perros, and talked to

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Speaker 7: others at length off the record. They described John as

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Speaker 7: gentle and caring, a tough fighter in the boxing ring,

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Speaker 7: but a good natured soul and loyal to a fault.

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Speaker 7: A bit intense in relationships, yes, but surely not a murderer.

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Speaker 1: Perros is not complaining about the first twelve episodes of

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Speaker 1: this podcast. He says episode thirteen defamed him by suggesting

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Speaker 1: the jury got it wrong and he was in fact

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Speaker 1: a murderer, and that's why he's suing Nationwide News, publisher

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Speaker 1: of The Australian, Headley Thomas, and shandy sister Shanna Blackburn.

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Speaker 1: The Australian's lawyers want the judge to listen to episodes

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Speaker 1: one to twelve as well, because they say there's a

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Speaker 1: huge amount of context and background that ensures the podcast

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Speaker 1: is fair to Perros and allows the audience to make

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Speaker 1: up its own mind. Peros's lawyers are arguing in court

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Speaker 1: that most Australians were unaware of the coroner's finding that

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Speaker 1: Peros was a murderer. They say because Shandy's story was

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Speaker 1: wildly popular, sitting at the top of the podcast charts

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Speaker 1: for months, it caused serious harm to his reputation. A

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Speaker 1: date has not yet been set for the full hearing

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Speaker 1: of this trial. What's happening right now in the Queensland

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court is a high stakes preliminary hearing where Dowd's

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Speaker 1: obtained sc counsel for the defendants, that is, the Australian Headley,

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Speaker 1: and Shanna is attempting to have Peros's case thrown out

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Speaker 1: before the case even begins. It all turns on a

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Speaker 1: notion called serious harm under defamation law. Perros has to

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Speaker 1: demonstrate the publication he's complaining about Episode thirteen caused him

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Speaker 1: serious harm, but Siptain says that can't possibly be the case.

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Speaker 4: The coroner's finding is a true fact. Episode thirteen has

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Speaker 4: said nothing more than the conclusion to which the coroner came.

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Speaker 4: He is a killer. The real cause of the harm

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Speaker 4: to the plaintiff's reputation is because the coroner made a finding.

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Speaker 4: Had it not been for that finding, this podcast may

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Speaker 4: never have been made.

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Speaker 1: Episode thirteen included emotional interviews with Shandy's mother and sister,

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Speaker 1: and examinations of how the coroner had before him evidence

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Speaker 1: that Dury never got to hear. For example, the coroner

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Speaker 1: had access to CCTV of what he accepted was John

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Speaker 1: Perros's car driving near the scene of Shandy's murder, and

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Speaker 1: evidence about when John Perros's phone was turned on and off.

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Speaker 1: The coroner had access to John Perros's initial record of

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Speaker 1: interview with police, and the coroner compelled Perros to give

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Speaker 1: evidence something Peros didn't want to do for fear of

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Speaker 1: incriminating himself.

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Speaker 4: To say of somebody that they are a murderer. It's

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Speaker 4: been found that he's a murderer. To call him a murderer,

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Speaker 4: or to say yeah, I agree with that finding. What

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Speaker 4: more harm does that do? How is its serious harm?

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Speaker 1: Just as Peter Applegarth put this to Dowd's Obtain, Episode

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Speaker 1: thirteen presented all these facts, but it also endorsed the

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Speaker 1: coroner's findings and suggested the jury got it wrong.

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Speaker 2: It bolsters the coroner's finding to something that may be right,

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Speaker 2: may be wrong, probably right, to something that is definitely right.

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Speaker 4: They are true facts that there was evidence that was

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Speaker 4: heard by the coroner that was not heard by the jury.

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Speaker 4: Episode thirteen was a revelation of those facts that were

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Speaker 4: part of the finding and providing some explanation to the listeners.

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Speaker 4: How could he have been acquitted? Well, it was made

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Speaker 4: plain the coroner had evidence the jury didn't have.

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Speaker 1: After the break exactly what Episode thirteen said. Original investigative

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Speaker 1: reporting is what we do at The Australian every day.

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Speaker 1: In a world of misinformation and hot takes, you can

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Speaker 1: invest in reliable, credible, journalism for a lot less than

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Speaker 1: the price of your morning coffee. Right now, it's a

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Speaker 1: dollar a week for the first four weeks. Check us

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Speaker 1: out at the Australian dot com dot ayu and we'll

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Speaker 1: be back after this break. In court on Tuesday, David Helvajian,

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Speaker 1: the barrister representing John Perros, took the judge through the

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Speaker 1: transcript of episode thirteen and explained why he believed it

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Speaker 1: caused serious harm to his client. We'll play the lines

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Speaker 1: from the episode with David Helvagian's commentary. We've used a

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Speaker 1: voice actor to bring you David Helvagian's words. First, you'll

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Speaker 1: hear the real audio from episode thirteen with Shanna Blackburn

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Speaker 1: speaking to Headley Thomas.

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Speaker 3: One matter of.

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Speaker 7: Fact, it was him, how can you be so sure?

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Speaker 5: And then we have these lines that I say directly

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Speaker 5: go to this publication establishing that the acquittal was wrong.

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Speaker 3: Because I've seen more evidence than what was presented at

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Speaker 3: the trial. We know the evidence that was ruled out

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Speaker 3: before the trial, we know the evidence that hasn't been seen,

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Speaker 3: and it's undeniable. When you have seen all that evidence

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Speaker 3: together that there is any other person responsible.

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Speaker 7: For this, then what you are saying is that he's

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Speaker 7: got away with murder.

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Speaker 3: App I think it's a letdown in our justice system.

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Speaker 5: To episodes thirteen, my submission is the most likely inference

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Speaker 5: is people know the plaintiff is one of two suspects,

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Speaker 5: they know about the coroner's findings. There's a question in

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Speaker 5: their minds why there's a dichotomy between a jury acquittal

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Speaker 5: within two hours versus a coroner's findings. Mister Perros is

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Speaker 5: a suspect with mister William Daniel, and there's a big

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Speaker 5: question mark as to who really committed the murder.

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Speaker 1: Helvajian had earlier presented as evidence a few anonymous Reddit comments,

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Speaker 1: including these.

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Speaker 3: One hundred percent he did just listen to this. Her

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Speaker 3: ex absolutely did it.

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Speaker 5: That kind of certainty is what episode thirteen provides, and

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Speaker 5: that's where serious harm arises.

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Speaker 1: In episode thirteen, Healy Thomas tells the audience John Perros's phone,

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Speaker 1: which was rarely turned off, had been switched off on

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Speaker 1: the nights before Shandy's murder. Headley spoke to Vicky Blackburn,

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Speaker 1: Andy's mother.

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Speaker 7: Now, the jurors in John's murder trial didn't hear anything

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Speaker 7: about John's mobile phone usage, and that inactivity, but Vicky

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Speaker 7: and Shammer and the cops knew it.

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Speaker 8: He went to three nights. He did the same thing.

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Speaker 8: He turned his phone off at the same time. He

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Speaker 8: tried that for three nights and got a successful.

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Speaker 5: Vicki Blackburn, the victim's mother, insinuates that he got lucky

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Speaker 5: that night she was walking home from work the prior

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Speaker 5: knight she got picked up by her boyfriend. The insinuation

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Speaker 5: is he was stalking. Now that evidence wasn't before the jury,

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Speaker 5: so it's another element that undercuts the acquittal.

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Speaker 1: In my submission, David Helvagian read to the judge words

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Speaker 1: in the episode from former detective Scott Furlong. He and

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Speaker 1: Headley were discussing the fact that some of the evidence

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Speaker 1: that was before the coroner had not been put to

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Speaker 1: the jury. She is got Furlong talking to Headley in

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Speaker 1: episode thirteen. Scott Furlong speaks first, so what.

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Speaker 9: Would the baggyars detective know about prosecuting a case or

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Speaker 9: trust the process?

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Speaker 10: I hear that at the same time as you've said,

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Speaker 10: you're so disappointed because in your view, you arrested the

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Speaker 10: right person, so therefore the process you've trusted has freed

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Speaker 10: the killer.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, take that one.

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Speaker 5: To bed with you.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to get the hair around that it is.

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Speaker 9: But yeah, you feel you've let the family down, You

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Speaker 9: feel you let the community down to have a not

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Speaker 9: guilty verdict when you know in your heart of hearts

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Speaker 9: that there's somebody that's responsible for her murder and you

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Speaker 9: arrested that person and put them before the courts. We

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Speaker 9: did our part.

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Speaker 2: We caught the killer.

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Speaker 1: In my opinion, Here's how David Helvajan described that in

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Speaker 1: court on Tuesday.

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Speaker 5: Now, if comments like that do not remove any doubt

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Speaker 5: in the listener's mind, it actually gets worse in my

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Speaker 5: respectful submission.

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Speaker 1: Episode thirteen also featured someone who listeners to Shandy's story

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Speaker 1: wouldn't know well, forensic scientist Kirsty Wright. She examined why

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Speaker 1: the DNA samples from Shandy's crime scene and John Perros's

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Speaker 1: car yielded no useful evidence for John's trial. Kirsty's work

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Speaker 1: led to stunning revelations in the podcast that Queensland's entire

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Speaker 1: DNA processing system was deeply flawed. David Helvagian told the

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Speaker 1: court it all added up to a strong insinuation in

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Speaker 1: the episode that the coroner was right and the jury

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Speaker 1: was wrong, and he said it was all made worse

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Speaker 1: by the fact The Australian is a high quality publication.

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Speaker 5: This is an investigative true crime podcast with experience, credibility, expertise.

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Speaker 5: It's not a headline or a two column piece.

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Speaker 1: Helvagian also said episode thirteen presented itself as the final

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Speaker 1: conclusion that Peros did it.

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Speaker 5: Episode thirteen so leads to certainty that it causes serious harm.

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Speaker 5: How can it otherwise when you have such a credible

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Speaker 5: publication interviewing the investigative police officer, the mother of the victim,

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Speaker 5: the sister of the victim, a DNA expert, a criminal

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Speaker 5: lawyer who says it's bad evidence. Those will point in

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Speaker 5: my respectful submission to the end of the story.

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Speaker 1: Justice Peter Applegarth has reserved his decision and will be back,

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Speaker 1: possibly at the end of August, but more likely in

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Speaker 1: September to let John Perros and the defendants know their fate.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us on the front and don't forget

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Speaker 1: to join ours. Subscribers at the Australian dot com dot

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Speaker 1: au