WEBVTT - Confronting a child killer: Dennis Martyn Pt.2 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.080 Detective see aside of life, the average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:40.400 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:48.600 In part two of my chat, we've retired Queensland Police 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:52.120 detective Dennis Martin. Dennis told us some details about his 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:55.920 interaction with Daniel Morkham's killer, Brett Cowen. It was quite 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:58.320 chilling what he had to say, and we're going to 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:01.800 go into more detail now. And I think listeners who 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:04.120 want to know what is going through a detective's mind 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:06.640 when sizing up a suspect, you are going to find 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:09.520 this fascinating. It also gives us an insight in the 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.880 pressures of being involved in a high profile investigation and 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:15.920 the robust nature of policing when the stakes are high 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:19.640 and there's always differences of opinions regarding how matters should 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.080 be approached. I think you're going to find this part 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:25.959 of the conversation fascinating. Durns Martin, welcome back to part 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:30.320 two of I Catchkillers. Thanks for that. I'm really enjoying 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.240 our chat and it brings back a lot of memories 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:37.360 in the policing and different different experiences. In part one, 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:41.280 we talked about your childhood where you grew up in Maure, 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:43.720 talked about your career in the army and then going 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:49.320 across to policing and your fairly extensive undercover career within policing. 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:52.600 Then you went to Task Force Argos, which was investigating 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:54.960 child sex offenders, and that's how you got tied up 0:01:55.000 --> 0:02:00.240 with the investigation into the disappearance of Daniel Morcambe. I 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:03.160 think when we left part one we're talking about you'd 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:07.120 been given the file perhaps two weeks, so, two weeks 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:10.040 after Daniel disappeared back in two thousand and three, I 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:13.800 think seventh of December two thousand and three to go 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.120 and speak to a call them a person of interest. 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:22.080 It's just anyone that's on the list a Brett Cowen, 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:25.640 What were your impressions when you went there? Talk us 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.280 through what happened when you went to that location. 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:32.080 Yeah. Look, my partner and I were driving along. It 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:36.400 was a little near Palmwood's, nice little little area. It 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.679 was maybe half sort of acres here, and there drove 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.120 up the driveway. His house was on the front of 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:46.919 the block. There was a house behind, and in hindsight, 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.799 I now I know that it was the pastor's house. 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:52.680 He was one of the people that were sort of 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:57.320 sponsoring him. But anyway, there was a lot of I 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.720 wouldn't say kids toys, but there were a lot of 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:03.720 things around in the yard, like little windmills that he 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:05.720 would make cow and made and all that sort of 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.359 thing would take the markets and sell. But they were 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:10.400 painted in such a way that to me, I thought 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:11.880 a kid would want them. You know, they were like 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:14.760 butterflies on the blades and all that sort of stuff. 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:18.040 So I said to Ken straight, I so that's a 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:20.200 bit strange, man, you know, it just just looks like 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.400 a kid's area, and I knew he didn't have any 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:27.120 children at that age. So he had a front porch 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:30.560 out the front, which was a concrete I guess porch 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:34.880 with no cover. And before we went there, I did 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:39.280 read some witness statements. One of the witness statements said 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:43.400 that on the left hand side, going towards Nambor, there 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.480 was a full drive with a black Snorkell park there 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.840 right during the time that Daniel was allegedly under the 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:55.200 underpass waiting for the bus. So I kept that in 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:55.920 the back of my mind. 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:58.880 Okay, so this is in when you're getting your head 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.080 around the circumstances of Daniel's disappearance. There was that four 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.200 will drive with the black Snorkel. That's great, Yes, yeah, yeah, 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:08.240 in the center of where Daniel was last scene alive. 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:11.920 That's right. The vehicle itself would have been where the 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.120 witness said it was directly across the road. But given 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.440 that that roade was two lanes towards Nanboor and two 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.919 lanes the other side, it may have been one hundred 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:23.560 meters or one hundred fifty meters, but it was still 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:27.560 there obviously to observe that's what you do from there. 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:30.560 So we drove in the driveway and here is a 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:32.520 white full drive with a black snorkel. And I said 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:35.200 to Ken, I said, I think it's something going on here. 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:39.480 This is a little bit. I don't believe in coincidences. 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:43.359 It's a coincidence that to me is a key indicator 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:47.839 that person or that person now becomes more of a 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:52.000 person of interest and to me steps up the ladder 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:54.520 towards the suspect. But that's just what it was at 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.440 the time on the observation of that car. So we 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:01.880 helped out and started to take record. Are running knocked 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:06.680 on the door and outsteps Brett Peter Kown. Now he 0:05:06.920 --> 0:05:11.119 had some shorts on, I think, and a collarge shirt. 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:12.480 I think it might have been a white college I 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:16.000 can't remember now. But he was quite well, you know, 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:19.279 his hair was cut, he was shaven, but he stood 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:21.600 in a funny way. He's still with his shoulders back 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:23.440 of it. He was a skinny sort of fellow, you know, 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.880 and sort of anything moving was sentuated, you know, that's 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:29.000 sort of the way he was. And he was very 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:33.000 cocky and straight away I didn't like him. And I 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:35.159 said to Ken, you know, I said, just keep an 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:38.320 eye on this bloke mate. So we got talking to 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:41.279 him and we asked him where he was at the time, 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:45.200 and he's very blase. I don't know, really I was. 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:48.599 I was around, and I said, we're going to have 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.920 to sort this out pretty quickly, Brett, because I don't 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.159 have all day to deal with dickheads, you know, and 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:55.720 you've got to be straight up. Well, I was straight 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:57.279 up with these people, you know. I don't have time 0:05:57.279 --> 0:05:58.080 to mark around with you. 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:00.479 Ah. 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.120 Well, I might have gone in and picked something up 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.279 at Namble. So then we were starting to get the 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:10.799 picture of Okay, so you've you know, you've gone to Namble. 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:15.160 Which way did you drive to Namble? Anyway? So he said, oh, 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:17.400 I drove and underpass and all that sort of stuff. 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.279 I said, you happen to see a little child with 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.000 black hair on the underpass from the other side near 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.440 the bus stop. No, no, not at all. Never never 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:28.880 saw anybody, I said, but somebody has said that they 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:32.359 saw your car. I said it was his car parked 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.320 on the other side of the road. I don't know how. 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:36.440 He said, I never stopped. I said, I didn't say 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:38.520 you stopped. I said, they said it was parked on it. 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:41.760 I said, did you stop. No, no, it never stopped 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:43.560 at all. I said, did you see a white fall 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:46.120 drive with a snock on it? No? I said, do 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:48.080 you think it was to be a coincidence that you 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:50.640 drive a white car with a snorkel it's a foo 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.000 will drive and someone saying they saw something similar on 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:53.520 that side. 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:53.720 Of the road. 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:55.800 I said, you're a pedophile, bad one by the sound 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.960 of it. I said, and yet you know I've looked 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:00.840 at And I was only bluffing at the time because 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:02.760 I didn't have any on who the other children were. 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:06.920 I said that that Daniel is in your age group, 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:11.080 and he goes, well, he looked at it. I said, 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:13.280 oh did he? Yeah, I said, I thought you said. 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:17.400 He didn't say anybody I might have pulled over. So 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:19.800 now we've established two things. If firstly you're pulled over, 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.280 you reckon. You've seen Daniel, I said, and you're a liar. 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:25.600 But we all know you're alive, because pedophiles are liars. 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.800 So then he started to get cranky, and I was 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:30.760 really only trying to fluster him and get him sort 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.240 of stirred up, you know. And then his wife came 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:39.320 out and she happened to be not the prettiest little thing, 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.800 you know. And they had a young child, and I 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:44.840 took her aside. I said, do you know the history 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.480 of this fellow that you're married to? I know everything, 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:49.800 I said. Did you know that he raped until he 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:52.200 murdered a young boy here in queens And some years ago, 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:54.400 and they did the same up in Darwin. No, I 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.800 didn't know that. I said to you that with your 0:07:57.840 --> 0:07:59.920 child alone, he said, because I do. It's my husband. 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:02.160 I said, well, do you know what happens when he 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:04.440 takes an appy with that child? So then she started 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:06.160 to carry on an arc up a bit, and I 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:07.640 was really only trying to get some sort of alia 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.440 nation between them both, you know, And. 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:14.560 Look, and people might be listening to listening to this, 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:18.160 and go, is that what happens? That's what I think, 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:21.400 good pleas to. You're going in there, you've got to 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:25.240 and I understand exactly what you're doing there. And if 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:27.200 you're go in, did you see anything? No? I thank 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:29.880 you very much, sir, and walk away. That's not how 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:30.880 the world operates. 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:32.120 No, And they'll tell you that every day. 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:36.040 Yeah. Yeah, So I'm fascinated to keep going with the story. Sorry, 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:36.840 when they're up. 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:40.280 So after that, obviously you know I've said to cow 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:42.720 and I said, look, I disagree that you would have 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:46.320 paid much attention to Daniel, given that you like little boys, 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:49.640 particularly with dark hair, and Daniel was a little boy 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:54.520 with dark hair. I said, if I liked blonde and 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:56.960 big breast, so I said, and I noticed that I 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:58.880 would notice. It's simple, I said, you don't have to 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:00.360 lie to me. I said, if that's what you noticed, 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:01.680 that to what you noticed, I said, I'm not saying 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.959 you did anything, just asking you. Oh, well, I might 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.839 have seen him. Yeah, he was there. So Lisa put 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:09.679 him there at that time. And that's a start. 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:12.240 That's a big, big start. And the way the way 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:15.360 the information came out too, holding it back and then 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:18.000 under the pressure a little bit and then gives you 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:19.800 a little bit more. Yeah, yeah, so significant. 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:21.679 We tried to knock him off off keel to a 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:23.640 little bit here, so he wasn't both feet on the ground. 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:25.320 He was one day in the air and thinking, oh, 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.000 I don't know which way to go yet. Yeah. So 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.240 then I said, well, I think we wouldn't mind having 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:33.200 a bit of look around inside your house. I said, 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:34.719 what for, I said, I just want to have a 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:36.920 little look if that's okay. And I had no right really, 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:38.640 but he said, oh, come. 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:39.280 In and have a mask. 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:40.880 Yeah, and he did. He said, we'll come in and 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:44.000 have a look. So we did. And I said to 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:46.800 her on the side, I said, so when when did 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.520 he leave the other day on the seventh? And she goes, oh, 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.280 I think you left around lunchtime? And I said, he 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.880 can keep him outside. He was away. And then I said, 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:58.920 well when did he come back? She said, oh, around 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:04.560 about two is threeh I said, well that's a fair time. 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:07.560 I said, we're talking an hour or so, you know. 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.240 I said, did he do anything strange when you come back? Yeah, 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:13.160 he got me to wash all his clothes. I said, 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:15.360 why would he do that? I said, did he do 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:17.160 it on a regular basis? 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:17.880 No? 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.000 I said, I'm here asking his questions. Now, I said, 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.120 are you just stupid? I said, can you see where 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.680 I'm coming from? No? She said no, no, I can't. 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.040 You know he's just a terrific fellow. I said, not 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.720 a trivial fellow, I said, a pedophile, his rape children 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:33.640 before you were a child here? I said, how stupid 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:35.839 are you? So I had to leave her because I 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:37.680 just couldn't put up with her. She was just some 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:40.200 people are just stupid and you can't talk anything. They're 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:41.480 like religious zealots. 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.280 Couldn't get it doesn't matter what you say. I'm not 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:45.040 going to register. 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:46.920 It doesn't matter. So we got out and saw him 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:49.760 and he said, well, look I was gone for a 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:51.680 period of time, he said, And I went and saw 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:57.800 a mate, said nimble, and got a mulcha from him. 0:10:58.120 --> 0:10:59.880 I said, okay, who's this mate? And all this sort 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:03.400 of stuff. We got that, and we said, look, while 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:07.400 we're here, we want to take your DNA, your fingerprints, 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:08.920 not that we really need them because we've got them 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:12.120 on fire, but would take them anyway, and some either 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.760 identifying particularly some pictures of you and your tattoos and 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.040 your car and whatnot. And you've got a bit cranky 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:22.400 with the car anyway, so that's all right. So we 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:25.800 then left him after we were there maybe an hour. Yeah, 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.240 I guess. Left And I said to Ken, I said, mate, 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:31.719 if he didn't do Daniel Morkham, I said, you know, 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.319 he's right for something, but I'm pretty sure that's who 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:34.640 did it. 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.160 So I'm fascinated on a couple of couple of points 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:42.480 there I think it's interesting that it's almost sometimes it's 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:44.960 a test where people don't arc up like you, I 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:46.960 want to have a look through your house, Like if 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:48.959 you had nothing to do with it, he'd probably stay 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:51.680 staunched and piss off, you're not coming in my house. 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.920 But he's trying to be compliant, and it's a real 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:58.560 battle of the mines, isn't it that Yeah, at that 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:02.320 point in time, because you know, you don't know, and 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.720 you've got to push things to get the reactions so 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:07.360 you can make an assessment. 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:11.520 Well, that's true. And if everyone remind remembers in the 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.360 back of my mind and Cans and my partners, we 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:16.680 were still looking for Daniel. Daniel could have been in 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:18.880 one of the rooms, could have been one of the cupboards, 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.000 could have been anywhere. So that house needed to be searched, 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:25.120 and whether it be done with his permission or not, 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:26.360 it was going to get serched, trust me. 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:32.080 And I think that sometimes people forget that. And when 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.400 I took over the Wim Tural matter, I felt that 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.079 pressure too, like we don't know what's happened to Wim Turrell. 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.840 So every inquiry you're making, you're wondering if this child's 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:41.679 still alive. 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:44.320 Absolutely, because you'd be lifting our boxes outside of the 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:46.320 garden looking in the shed because he could have been 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:47.800 tied up there. There's no reason why he wasn't. He 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:50.760 hadn't been found to that stage, so it could have been. 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:52.440 It was quite feasible for him to He's still been 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:53.480 alive and kept. 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.920 So you're there for about an now. Certainly the indicators 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.000 that you've or the things that you've told me there, 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:04.640 I'm looking at red flag, red flag you and can 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:06.760 get back in the car, tell us the conversation you 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:09.760 guys have, because I always find it fascinating, the conversation 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.360 because you can't say, you can't declare it in front 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.880 of each other or in front of the suspect. But 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:16.640 when you get back in the car, you can't wait 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:19.439 to compare notes and get the others insights and tell 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:20.320 us about the conversation. 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:21.840 Look, you know, straight away we looked at each other 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:23.439 and said, he's right for it, and if it's not 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.079 right for something, but we're pretty confident he's right for 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:29.800 Daniel walkhambe. So we said, look, our next plan of 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.200 attack will be we'll drive the route that he said, 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.120 take times, take kilometers, and we'll go and see the alibi. 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.120 So we did that. It was around about forty five minutes. 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:41.240 So you did that straight away, straight away. 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:45.040 Yeah, straight away. It was that I was aware of it, 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:49.280 that I thought that everything else could wait, need to prioritize. Yeah, absolutely, 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:51.920 So we did that, and we went to the fellow 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.000 that had the multure, because you did say sorry during 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.160 the conversation when he stopped at the maltitari he had 0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:58.280 a cup of tea or something and chattered to the fellow. 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:01.360 And we went to to the bloke that had the 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:03.520 mulcha and he was going with his wife. So he 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:05.800 was with his wife and we sat down in his house. 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:08.439 I said, cowan turned up to get the malted you 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:10.360 know where did you have a cup of tea? He said, 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:11.719 you have a couple of tea, You said, my wife 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.559 nogating out to a party. I think it was my memory. 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:17.760 He pulled up in the car, lowered his targeate, we 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.120 put the malta in the way he went. He never 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:22.200 stopped at all. No, he said, wouldn't have been any 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.040 more than five minutes. So there we picked up another 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.160 at least twenty minutes of his alibi. 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:32.080 And there crucial things like the alibi is that's you 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.160 build or you build a case on the alibi. If 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:39.640 the alibi stands up, you're looking at the wrong person. 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.160 But when someone's lying about their alibi, that's where it 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:44.520 gets your interest up straight away. 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:46.920 Yes, And the issue was that the way he went 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:50.040 allegedly went back home took him onto the same side 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:51.320 that Daniel Morgan would have been. 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:51.880 Right. 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.520 So what we're obviously looking at in that period of 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:57.520 time his vehicle was pulled over to site Daniel. Yeah, 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:00.320 he's gone to get the mulcha, didn't stay for and 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:04.200 that multa would have been maybe eight kilometers up the road, 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.280 so double laned highway might have been four minutes to 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:10.800 drive there, five minutes there by the alibi to say 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:14.040 that's what occurred, and six minutes the other side. In 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:17.800 that time the bus has gone past, or the buses 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:22.000 broken down, replacement buses gone past. Daniel's still there, given 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.280 him plenty of time to come back. And in hindsight 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.160 we now know from his admission that what he did 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:30.160 was he did go past, and he did see Daniel 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.400 still there, and he went back up and parked into 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:35.200 the car park of a church where he used to 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:39.120 go to church as a sponsor that lived near him. 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.920 Palm Woods was a pastor there. And then he walked 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.840 down the back way right next to Daniel and that's 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.760 where he abducted him from. That's Cowen's own words. 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:54.160 And so this is a call of for one of 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.040 the better words, a case theory that you're building on 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.280 the timeline that what he's told you, the suspicions you've 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:04.000 got from what he told you, and the way he 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:07.800 revealed the information you've done that check he's ourbi doesn't 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:12.160 check check out. Timeline doesn't check out in terms of 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:15.240 his travel, and you've put him in the in the scene. 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:16.040 That's correct here. 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:20.200 Yeah, so okay, Well I'm from a detect this point 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:22.760 of view. I'm excited on this piece of information. 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:26.280 Yeah. Look, we were excited and obviously not excited to 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.720 the way people would think, but we were thinking every 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.400 step of the way, this fellow's more for the job 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:38.240 than what is not. So we went back to the 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.440 station Maruchi door, got a few things sorted out, and 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:43.280 we went back to his place of employment where he 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:44.880 had his full drive. He was worked at a tow 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:48.960 truck business, and took some pictures of his tires and 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.840 a few more pictures of the car. Took some tread 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:53.840 pats of his car to see if there was something 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.000 on the other side of the road so we could 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.080 say your car was definitely there. He admitted it, but 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:01.280 we'd like to get some pre yeah. Anyway, So that 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.879 was that. So we went back that evening put the 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.119 full report together. Was that, you know, we don't do 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:09.480 that for every one of the people. For Alibis, we 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:11.520 have put a big kick and say it's no good 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:14.560 blah blah blah. So we do a full report. We're 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.080 then made representation to the Major Enginet room that you know, 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:19.159 we really think we should brief you on this person 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:25.880 should be a main suspect. Ken brief the the major 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:29.320 engine room the next day. Yep, and that was it. 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:33.640 It was quietly dismissed, right, okay, yeah, so just and 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:35.960 this is like the build up to it. But I 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.320 just wanted to get sense from you what you were 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.879 dealing with at the time. So I'm looking at it. 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:47.440 You've gone to make this inquiry. There's enough indicators there 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.040 to get you excited about the inquiry. And when I'm 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:53.080 saying excited, it's not a horrendous crime, but from an 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.399 investigative point of view, excited that you might be on something. 0:17:56.920 --> 0:18:00.520 Your instinct and the information that you got I didn't 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:02.440 check out. You've had it got him in the vicinity. 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:07.040 He's opportunity, most even capability. That's what I always look 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:09.240 for when I'm looking for a suspect for a crime. 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:14.200 And he ticks all three boxes. There, you've gone back. 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:17.080 You followed up the inquiries that you could make and say, 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.760 people understand the working of a strikeforce, it being Queensland 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.880 or down here. All that information comes in at briefings, 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:27.560 as you said, can brief the major incident team and 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:30.560 said okay, this is our take on it. You've done 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:32.760 the report, submitted that and you would think that there 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.600 would be some priority given to what needs needs to 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:38.320 be done at that point in time. 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:41.080 Our report dictated that that should have been the case. 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:44.720 The report was very you know, my reports are reasonably 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.400 concise and very clear and accurate in relation to what 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.879 recommendations should and should not be done. The recommendations on 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:56.080 that report were very clear. You know basically that a 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:59.320 summarization that would be he is your main suspect. If 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:01.800 he's not, he should everything should be done to rule 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:04.560 him out rather than sorry, rule him in, rather than 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.240 trying to rule him out. Yep. And that's how it 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.720 should be. And that's every possibility that was COVID, that 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.120 was electronic, that was surveillance, and yeah, they never even 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:15.200 went and seized his computers. 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.719 So Daniel disappeared on the seventh of December two thousand 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:22.400 and three, yourself and can spoke to Cowen about two 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:27.480 weeks later, brief Task Force members and compile the report 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:30.520 of their suspicions. What we've just talked about. In two 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:34.359