Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life, the average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: In part two of my chat, we've retired Queensland Police
Speaker 1: detective Dennis Martin. Dennis told us some details about his
Speaker 1: interaction with Daniel Morkham's killer, Brett Cowen. It was quite
Speaker 1: chilling what he had to say, and we're going to
Speaker 1: go into more detail now. And I think listeners who
Speaker 1: want to know what is going through a detective's mind
Speaker 1: when sizing up a suspect, you are going to find
Speaker 1: this fascinating. It also gives us an insight in the
Speaker 1: pressures of being involved in a high profile investigation and
Speaker 1: the robust nature of policing when the stakes are high
Speaker 1: and there's always differences of opinions regarding how matters should
Speaker 1: be approached. I think you're going to find this part
Speaker 1: of the conversation fascinating. Durns Martin, welcome back to part
Speaker 1: two of I Catchkillers. Thanks for that. I'm really enjoying
Speaker 1: our chat and it brings back a lot of memories
Speaker 1: in the policing and different different experiences. In part one,
Speaker 1: we talked about your childhood where you grew up in Maure,
Speaker 1: talked about your career in the army and then going
Speaker 1: across to policing and your fairly extensive undercover career within policing.
Speaker 1: Then you went to Task Force Argos, which was investigating
Speaker 1: child sex offenders, and that's how you got tied up
Speaker 1: with the investigation into the disappearance of Daniel Morcambe. I
Speaker 1: think when we left part one we're talking about you'd
Speaker 1: been given the file perhaps two weeks, so, two weeks
Speaker 1: after Daniel disappeared back in two thousand and three, I
Speaker 1: think seventh of December two thousand and three to go
Speaker 1: and speak to a call them a person of interest.
Speaker 1: It's just anyone that's on the list a Brett Cowen,
Speaker 1: What were your impressions when you went there? Talk us
Speaker 1: through what happened when you went to that location.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, my partner and I were driving along. It
Speaker 2: was a little near Palmwood's, nice little little area. It
Speaker 2: was maybe half sort of acres here, and there drove
Speaker 2: up the driveway. His house was on the front of
Speaker 2: the block. There was a house behind, and in hindsight,
Speaker 2: I now I know that it was the pastor's house.
Speaker 2: He was one of the people that were sort of
Speaker 2: sponsoring him. But anyway, there was a lot of I
Speaker 2: wouldn't say kids toys, but there were a lot of
Speaker 2: things around in the yard, like little windmills that he
Speaker 2: would make cow and made and all that sort of
Speaker 2: thing would take the markets and sell. But they were
Speaker 2: painted in such a way that to me, I thought
Speaker 2: a kid would want them. You know, they were like
Speaker 2: butterflies on the blades and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: So I said to Ken straight, I so that's a
Speaker 2: bit strange, man, you know, it just just looks like
Speaker 2: a kid's area, and I knew he didn't have any
Speaker 2: children at that age. So he had a front porch
Speaker 2: out the front, which was a concrete I guess porch
Speaker 2: with no cover. And before we went there, I did
Speaker 2: read some witness statements. One of the witness statements said
Speaker 2: that on the left hand side, going towards Nambor, there
Speaker 2: was a full drive with a black Snorkell park there
Speaker 2: right during the time that Daniel was allegedly under the
Speaker 2: underpass waiting for the bus. So I kept that in
Speaker 2: the back of my mind.
Speaker 1: Okay, so this is in when you're getting your head
Speaker 1: around the circumstances of Daniel's disappearance. There was that four
Speaker 1: will drive with the black Snorkel. That's great, Yes, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: in the center of where Daniel was last scene alive.
Speaker 2: That's right. The vehicle itself would have been where the
Speaker 2: witness said it was directly across the road. But given
Speaker 2: that that roade was two lanes towards Nanboor and two
Speaker 2: lanes the other side, it may have been one hundred
Speaker 2: meters or one hundred fifty meters, but it was still
Speaker 2: there obviously to observe that's what you do from there.
Speaker 2: So we drove in the driveway and here is a
Speaker 2: white full drive with a black snorkel. And I said
Speaker 2: to Ken, I said, I think it's something going on here.
Speaker 2: This is a little bit. I don't believe in coincidences.
Speaker 2: It's a coincidence that to me is a key indicator
Speaker 2: that person or that person now becomes more of a
Speaker 2: person of interest and to me steps up the ladder
Speaker 2: towards the suspect. But that's just what it was at
Speaker 2: the time on the observation of that car. So we
Speaker 2: helped out and started to take record. Are running knocked
Speaker 2: on the door and outsteps Brett Peter Kown. Now he
Speaker 2: had some shorts on, I think, and a collarge shirt.
Speaker 2: I think it might have been a white college I
Speaker 2: can't remember now. But he was quite well, you know,
Speaker 2: his hair was cut, he was shaven, but he stood
Speaker 2: in a funny way. He's still with his shoulders back
Speaker 2: of it. He was a skinny sort of fellow, you know,
Speaker 2: and sort of anything moving was sentuated, you know, that's
Speaker 2: sort of the way he was. And he was very
Speaker 2: cocky and straight away I didn't like him. And I
Speaker 2: said to Ken, you know, I said, just keep an
Speaker 2: eye on this bloke mate. So we got talking to
Speaker 2: him and we asked him where he was at the time,
Speaker 2: and he's very blase. I don't know, really I was.
Speaker 2: I was around, and I said, we're going to have
Speaker 2: to sort this out pretty quickly, Brett, because I don't
Speaker 2: have all day to deal with dickheads, you know, and
Speaker 2: you've got to be straight up. Well, I was straight
Speaker 2: up with these people, you know. I don't have time
Speaker 2: to mark around with you.
Speaker 1: Ah.
Speaker 2: Well, I might have gone in and picked something up
Speaker 2: at Namble. So then we were starting to get the
Speaker 2: picture of Okay, so you've you know, you've gone to Namble.
Speaker 2: Which way did you drive to Namble? Anyway? So he said, oh,
Speaker 2: I drove and underpass and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2: I said, you happen to see a little child with
Speaker 2: black hair on the underpass from the other side near
Speaker 2: the bus stop. No, no, not at all. Never never
Speaker 2: saw anybody, I said, but somebody has said that they
Speaker 2: saw your car. I said it was his car parked
Speaker 2: on the other side of the road. I don't know how.
Speaker 2: He said, I never stopped. I said, I didn't say
Speaker 2: you stopped. I said, they said it was parked on it.
Speaker 2: I said, did you stop. No, no, it never stopped
Speaker 2: at all. I said, did you see a white fall
Speaker 2: drive with a snock on it? No? I said, do
Speaker 2: you think it was to be a coincidence that you
Speaker 2: drive a white car with a snorkel it's a foo
Speaker 2: will drive and someone saying they saw something similar on
Speaker 2: that side.
Speaker 1: Of the road.
Speaker 2: I said, you're a pedophile, bad one by the sound
Speaker 2: of it. I said, and yet you know I've looked
Speaker 2: at And I was only bluffing at the time because
Speaker 2: I didn't have any on who the other children were.
Speaker 2: I said that that Daniel is in your age group,
Speaker 2: and he goes, well, he looked at it. I said,
Speaker 2: oh did he? Yeah, I said, I thought you said.
Speaker 2: He didn't say anybody I might have pulled over. So
Speaker 2: now we've established two things. If firstly you're pulled over,
Speaker 2: you reckon. You've seen Daniel, I said, and you're a liar.
Speaker 2: But we all know you're alive, because pedophiles are liars.
Speaker 2: So then he started to get cranky, and I was
Speaker 2: really only trying to fluster him and get him sort
Speaker 2: of stirred up, you know. And then his wife came
Speaker 2: out and she happened to be not the prettiest little thing,
Speaker 2: you know. And they had a young child, and I
Speaker 2: took her aside. I said, do you know the history
Speaker 2: of this fellow that you're married to? I know everything,
Speaker 2: I said. Did you know that he raped until he
Speaker 2: murdered a young boy here in queens And some years ago,
Speaker 2: and they did the same up in Darwin. No, I
Speaker 2: didn't know that. I said to you that with your
Speaker 2: child alone, he said, because I do. It's my husband.
Speaker 2: I said, well, do you know what happens when he
Speaker 2: takes an appy with that child? So then she started
Speaker 2: to carry on an arc up a bit, and I
Speaker 2: was really only trying to get some sort of alia
Speaker 2: nation between them both, you know, And.
Speaker 1: Look, and people might be listening to listening to this,
Speaker 1: and go, is that what happens? That's what I think,
Speaker 1: good pleas to. You're going in there, you've got to
Speaker 1: and I understand exactly what you're doing there. And if
Speaker 1: you're go in, did you see anything? No? I thank
Speaker 1: you very much, sir, and walk away. That's not how
Speaker 1: the world operates.
Speaker 2: No, And they'll tell you that every day.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So I'm fascinated to keep going with the story. Sorry,
Speaker 1: when they're up.
Speaker 2: So after that, obviously you know I've said to cow
Speaker 2: and I said, look, I disagree that you would have
Speaker 2: paid much attention to Daniel, given that you like little boys,
Speaker 2: particularly with dark hair, and Daniel was a little boy
Speaker 2: with dark hair. I said, if I liked blonde and
Speaker 2: big breast, so I said, and I noticed that I
Speaker 2: would notice. It's simple, I said, you don't have to
Speaker 2: lie to me. I said, if that's what you noticed,
Speaker 2: that to what you noticed, I said, I'm not saying
Speaker 2: you did anything, just asking you. Oh, well, I might
Speaker 2: have seen him. Yeah, he was there. So Lisa put
Speaker 2: him there at that time. And that's a start.
Speaker 1: That's a big, big start. And the way the way
Speaker 1: the information came out too, holding it back and then
Speaker 1: under the pressure a little bit and then gives you
Speaker 1: a little bit more. Yeah, yeah, so significant.
Speaker 2: We tried to knock him off off keel to a
Speaker 2: little bit here, so he wasn't both feet on the ground.
Speaker 2: He was one day in the air and thinking, oh,
Speaker 2: I don't know which way to go yet. Yeah. So
Speaker 2: then I said, well, I think we wouldn't mind having
Speaker 2: a bit of look around inside your house. I said,
Speaker 2: what for, I said, I just want to have a
Speaker 2: little look if that's okay. And I had no right really,
Speaker 2: but he said, oh, come.
Speaker 1: In and have a mask.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he did. He said, we'll come in and
Speaker 2: have a look. So we did. And I said to
Speaker 2: her on the side, I said, so when when did
Speaker 2: he leave the other day on the seventh? And she goes, oh,
Speaker 2: I think you left around lunchtime? And I said, he
Speaker 2: can keep him outside. He was away. And then I said,
Speaker 2: well when did he come back? She said, oh, around
Speaker 2: about two is threeh I said, well that's a fair time.
Speaker 2: I said, we're talking an hour or so, you know.
Speaker 2: I said, did he do anything strange when you come back? Yeah,
Speaker 2: he got me to wash all his clothes. I said,
Speaker 2: why would he do that? I said, did he do
Speaker 2: it on a regular basis?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: I said, I'm here asking his questions. Now, I said,
Speaker 2: are you just stupid? I said, can you see where
Speaker 2: I'm coming from? No? She said no, no, I can't.
Speaker 2: You know he's just a terrific fellow. I said, not
Speaker 2: a trivial fellow, I said, a pedophile, his rape children
Speaker 2: before you were a child here? I said, how stupid
Speaker 2: are you? So I had to leave her because I
Speaker 2: just couldn't put up with her. She was just some
Speaker 2: people are just stupid and you can't talk anything. They're
Speaker 2: like religious zealots.
Speaker 1: Couldn't get it doesn't matter what you say. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to register.
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter. So we got out and saw him
Speaker 2: and he said, well, look I was gone for a
Speaker 2: period of time, he said, And I went and saw
Speaker 2: a mate, said nimble, and got a mulcha from him.
Speaker 2: I said, okay, who's this mate? And all this sort
Speaker 2: of stuff. We got that, and we said, look, while
Speaker 2: we're here, we want to take your DNA, your fingerprints,
Speaker 2: not that we really need them because we've got them
Speaker 2: on fire, but would take them anyway, and some either
Speaker 2: identifying particularly some pictures of you and your tattoos and
Speaker 2: your car and whatnot. And you've got a bit cranky
Speaker 2: with the car anyway, so that's all right. So we
Speaker 2: then left him after we were there maybe an hour. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I guess. Left And I said to Ken, I said, mate,
Speaker 2: if he didn't do Daniel Morkham, I said, you know,
Speaker 2: he's right for something, but I'm pretty sure that's who
Speaker 2: did it.
Speaker 1: So I'm fascinated on a couple of couple of points
Speaker 1: there I think it's interesting that it's almost sometimes it's
Speaker 1: a test where people don't arc up like you, I
Speaker 1: want to have a look through your house, Like if
Speaker 1: you had nothing to do with it, he'd probably stay
Speaker 1: staunched and piss off, you're not coming in my house.
Speaker 1: But he's trying to be compliant, and it's a real
Speaker 1: battle of the mines, isn't it that Yeah, at that
Speaker 1: point in time, because you know, you don't know, and
Speaker 1: you've got to push things to get the reactions so
Speaker 1: you can make an assessment.
Speaker 2: Well, that's true. And if everyone remind remembers in the
Speaker 2: back of my mind and Cans and my partners, we
Speaker 2: were still looking for Daniel. Daniel could have been in
Speaker 2: one of the rooms, could have been one of the cupboards,
Speaker 2: could have been anywhere. So that house needed to be searched,
Speaker 2: and whether it be done with his permission or not,
Speaker 2: it was going to get serched, trust me.
Speaker 1: And I think that sometimes people forget that. And when
Speaker 1: I took over the Wim Tural matter, I felt that
Speaker 1: pressure too, like we don't know what's happened to Wim Turrell.
Speaker 1: So every inquiry you're making, you're wondering if this child's
Speaker 1: still alive.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, because you'd be lifting our boxes outside of the
Speaker 2: garden looking in the shed because he could have been
Speaker 2: tied up there. There's no reason why he wasn't. He
Speaker 2: hadn't been found to that stage, so it could have been.
Speaker 2: It was quite feasible for him to He's still been
Speaker 2: alive and kept.
Speaker 1: So you're there for about an now. Certainly the indicators
Speaker 1: that you've or the things that you've told me there,
Speaker 1: I'm looking at red flag, red flag you and can
Speaker 1: get back in the car, tell us the conversation you
Speaker 1: guys have, because I always find it fascinating, the conversation
Speaker 1: because you can't say, you can't declare it in front
Speaker 1: of each other or in front of the suspect. But
Speaker 1: when you get back in the car, you can't wait
Speaker 1: to compare notes and get the others insights and tell
Speaker 1: us about the conversation.
Speaker 2: Look, you know, straight away we looked at each other
Speaker 2: and said, he's right for it, and if it's not
Speaker 2: right for something, but we're pretty confident he's right for
Speaker 2: Daniel walkhambe. So we said, look, our next plan of
Speaker 2: attack will be we'll drive the route that he said,
Speaker 2: take times, take kilometers, and we'll go and see the alibi.
Speaker 2: So we did that. It was around about forty five minutes.
Speaker 1: So you did that straight away, straight away.
Speaker 2: Yeah, straight away. It was that I was aware of it,
Speaker 2: that I thought that everything else could wait, need to prioritize. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 2: So we did that, and we went to the fellow
Speaker 2: that had the multure, because you did say sorry during
Speaker 2: the conversation when he stopped at the maltitari he had
Speaker 2: a cup of tea or something and chattered to the fellow.
Speaker 2: And we went to to the bloke that had the
Speaker 2: mulcha and he was going with his wife. So he
Speaker 2: was with his wife and we sat down in his house.
Speaker 2: I said, cowan turned up to get the malted you
Speaker 2: know where did you have a cup of tea? He said,
Speaker 2: you have a couple of tea, You said, my wife
Speaker 2: nogating out to a party. I think it was my memory.
Speaker 2: He pulled up in the car, lowered his targeate, we
Speaker 2: put the malta in the way he went. He never
Speaker 2: stopped at all. No, he said, wouldn't have been any
Speaker 2: more than five minutes. So there we picked up another
Speaker 2: at least twenty minutes of his alibi.
Speaker 1: And there crucial things like the alibi is that's you
Speaker 1: build or you build a case on the alibi. If
Speaker 1: the alibi stands up, you're looking at the wrong person.
Speaker 1: But when someone's lying about their alibi, that's where it
Speaker 1: gets your interest up straight away.
Speaker 2: Yes, And the issue was that the way he went
Speaker 2: allegedly went back home took him onto the same side
Speaker 2: that Daniel Morgan would have been.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So what we're obviously looking at in that period of
Speaker 2: time his vehicle was pulled over to site Daniel. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he's gone to get the mulcha, didn't stay for and
Speaker 2: that multa would have been maybe eight kilometers up the road,
Speaker 2: so double laned highway might have been four minutes to
Speaker 2: drive there, five minutes there by the alibi to say
Speaker 2: that's what occurred, and six minutes the other side. In
Speaker 2: that time the bus has gone past, or the buses
Speaker 2: broken down, replacement buses gone past. Daniel's still there, given
Speaker 2: him plenty of time to come back. And in hindsight
Speaker 2: we now know from his admission that what he did
Speaker 2: was he did go past, and he did see Daniel
Speaker 2: still there, and he went back up and parked into
Speaker 2: the car park of a church where he used to
Speaker 2: go to church as a sponsor that lived near him.
Speaker 2: Palm Woods was a pastor there. And then he walked
Speaker 2: down the back way right next to Daniel and that's
Speaker 2: where he abducted him from. That's Cowen's own words.
Speaker 1: And so this is a call of for one of
Speaker 1: the better words, a case theory that you're building on
Speaker 1: the timeline that what he's told you, the suspicions you've
Speaker 1: got from what he told you, and the way he
Speaker 1: revealed the information you've done that check he's ourbi doesn't
Speaker 1: check check out. Timeline doesn't check out in terms of
Speaker 1: his travel, and you've put him in the in the scene.
Speaker 2: That's correct here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so okay, Well I'm from a detect this point
Speaker 1: of view. I'm excited on this piece of information.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, we were excited and obviously not excited to
Speaker 2: the way people would think, but we were thinking every
Speaker 2: step of the way, this fellow's more for the job
Speaker 2: than what is not. So we went back to the
Speaker 2: station Maruchi door, got a few things sorted out, and
Speaker 2: we went back to his place of employment where he
Speaker 2: had his full drive. He was worked at a tow
Speaker 2: truck business, and took some pictures of his tires and
Speaker 2: a few more pictures of the car. Took some tread
Speaker 2: pats of his car to see if there was something
Speaker 2: on the other side of the road so we could
Speaker 2: say your car was definitely there. He admitted it, but
Speaker 2: we'd like to get some pre yeah. Anyway, So that
Speaker 2: was that. So we went back that evening put the
Speaker 2: full report together. Was that, you know, we don't do
Speaker 2: that for every one of the people. For Alibis, we
Speaker 2: have put a big kick and say it's no good
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. So we do a full report. We're
Speaker 2: then made representation to the Major Enginet room that you know,
Speaker 2: we really think we should brief you on this person
Speaker 2: should be a main suspect. Ken brief the the major
Speaker 2: engine room the next day. Yep, and that was it.
Speaker 1: It was quietly dismissed, right, okay, yeah, so just and
Speaker 1: this is like the build up to it. But I
Speaker 1: just wanted to get sense from you what you were
Speaker 1: dealing with at the time. So I'm looking at it.
Speaker 1: You've gone to make this inquiry. There's enough indicators there
Speaker 1: to get you excited about the inquiry. And when I'm
Speaker 1: saying excited, it's not a horrendous crime, but from an
Speaker 1: investigative point of view, excited that you might be on something.
Speaker 1: Your instinct and the information that you got I didn't
Speaker 1: check out. You've had it got him in the vicinity.
Speaker 1: He's opportunity, most even capability. That's what I always look
Speaker 1: for when I'm looking for a suspect for a crime.
Speaker 1: And he ticks all three boxes. There, you've gone back.
Speaker 1: You followed up the inquiries that you could make and say,
Speaker 1: people understand the working of a strikeforce, it being Queensland
Speaker 1: or down here. All that information comes in at briefings,
Speaker 1: as you said, can brief the major incident team and
Speaker 1: said okay, this is our take on it. You've done
Speaker 1: the report, submitted that and you would think that there
Speaker 1: would be some priority given to what needs needs to
Speaker 1: be done at that point in time.
Speaker 2: Our report dictated that that should have been the case.
Speaker 2: The report was very you know, my reports are reasonably
Speaker 2: concise and very clear and accurate in relation to what
Speaker 2: recommendations should and should not be done. The recommendations on
Speaker 2: that report were very clear. You know basically that a
Speaker 2: summarization that would be he is your main suspect. If
Speaker 2: he's not, he should everything should be done to rule
Speaker 2: him out rather than sorry, rule him in, rather than
Speaker 2: trying to rule him out. Yep. And that's how it
Speaker 2: should be. And that's every possibility that was COVID, that
Speaker 2: was electronic, that was surveillance, and yeah, they never even
Speaker 2: went and seized his computers.
Speaker 1: So Daniel disappeared on the seventh of December two thousand
Speaker 1: and three, yourself and can spoke to Cowen about two
Speaker 1: weeks later, brief Task Force members and compile the report
Speaker 1: of their suspicions. What we've just talked about. In two
Speaker 1: thousand and six, I think Cowen was a game interview
Speaker 1: by the Strikeforce because it was still unsolved. So you're
Speaker 1: looking at two thousand and three. Detectives have gone back
Speaker 1: to speak to Cowen at two thousand and six. I
Speaker 1: assume you weren't working on it at that stage.
Speaker 2: No. I was walking past the toilets on Level three
Speaker 2: at the time and was called in. They said that
Speaker 2: they were going to get him to talk to him again.
Speaker 2: Could I give them some hints? I saw the biggest
Speaker 2: hint would be going to get this report that we wrote. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and they found the report and they said, is this
Speaker 2: a reporter that yes it is, I said, and they said,
Speaker 2: well he've moved to New South Wales now, right, and
Speaker 2: I think he refused to come back for some reason anyway,
Speaker 2: so that was it.
Speaker 1: So that was that sort of okay, So they've still
Speaker 1: got the report. Yes, for whatever reason, the cycle's gone around,
Speaker 1: and yeah, there's a lot of inquiries going on. I
Speaker 1: think you and I both understand that you've got an
Speaker 1: instinct on that. I'm sure there's other cops have gone
Speaker 1: out and spoken to someone else that thinks, okay, maybe
Speaker 1: that person's good for it as well. But anyway, two
Speaker 1: thousand and six, he's been interviewed again. I'd take it
Speaker 1: he's denied any involvement or they couldn't gather any evidence
Speaker 1: on it. October twenty twelve and April twenty eleven Akrainal
Speaker 1: inquest was held, so at this stage Daniel's disappearance hasn't
Speaker 1: been solved. There's an inquest that's been held. On the
Speaker 1: thirteenth of August two thousand, eleven eleven, after an undercover operation,
Speaker 1: police took cow In in the custody in charge. So
Speaker 1: that's eight years later or almost eight years later. August
Speaker 1: twenty first of August, so almost a week later, a
Speaker 1: bit over a week later, Daniel's remains were located. Thirteenth
Speaker 1: of March twenty fourteen, Cowen was found guilty of murder
Speaker 1: and December two thousand and eight in the inquest was
Speaker 1: reopened after Cowen had exhausted his appeals. So Daniel disappears
Speaker 1: in two thousand and three, and then eight years later
Speaker 1: Cowen gets locked up. He made admissions there as an
Speaker 1: undercover operation, contested at court, convicted, and we've gone back
Speaker 1: to an inquest.
Speaker 2: The whole idea of that coronal inquiry into the police investigation,
Speaker 2: that's what it was, was my understanding was sold to
Speaker 2: me because I was out of the police by then. Yep,
Speaker 2: it sold to me that it was really to put
Speaker 2: ideas to the coroner so that he could make some
Speaker 2: changes either legislative or policy and procedures within the police
Speaker 2: to make such a thing easier for police all around,
Speaker 2: for investigating into the future. I thought, great, that's a
Speaker 2: good thing, the healthy thing. So Ken and I got
Speaker 2: together and we said, what would you like to see happen?
Speaker 2: And so we both agreed basically on the fact that
Speaker 2: if regardless whether you're in the Major Incident Room, or
Speaker 2: you are not. If you are, in our case, the
Speaker 2: two police detectives that are interested in Cowen, it should
Speaker 2: be our responsibility to investigate him one hundred and ten
Speaker 2: percent to the point where we can say he is
Speaker 2: no way in the world he is a suspect or
Speaker 2: involved in the manner prior to us letting him go,
Speaker 2: and that was where we were coming from. That's what
Speaker 2: we wanted to put to the coroner to say that
Speaker 2: these policy procedures should be put in place so that
Speaker 2: something like this doesn't happen again. It can't be missed.
Speaker 1: I think I'll read out Probably the easiest way to
Speaker 1: do is read out some extracts from a media article
Speaker 1: report the findings of the inquest in twenty eighteen. So
Speaker 1: this is as I said. Next track from a media
Speaker 1: article reporting on the findings of the inquest twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1: The early police rest response to the disappearance of Queensland
Speaker 1: boyd Daniel Morkham did not pay enough attention to his murderer,
Speaker 1: Brett Peter Cowen as a suspect. That coroner says. Findings
Speaker 1: have been handed down by State Coroner Terry Ryan on
Speaker 1: Friday just over fifteen years since the thirteen year old
Speaker 1: disappeared at a bus stop on his way to buy
Speaker 1: Christmas presents for his family in two thousand and three.
Speaker 1: Mister Ryan noted Cowen was a known child sex offender
Speaker 1: and admitted being in the Sunshine Coast area where Daniel disappeared.
Speaker 1: I agree with the submissions from the family and counsel
Speaker 1: assisting that more could have been done to focus on
Speaker 1: mister Cowen and mister Cowen in the early stages of
Speaker 1: the investigation, mister Ryan said. He also said claims made
Speaker 1: at the inquest by two police officers that they were
Speaker 1: rebuffed when they raised Cowen as a suspect could not
Speaker 1: be proven. So that last bit two police officers, I'm
Speaker 1: assuming that you and Ken and it just cannot be proven.
Speaker 1: Also at the inquest, mister Ryan said on Friday, immediate
Speaker 1: police response was adequate and in line with policy. So adequate.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of interpretations there, and in line with policy.
Speaker 1: Given Daniel was likely killed within an hour of his abduction,
Speaker 1: his death could not have been prevented by police, he said.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting for the public to get an
Speaker 1: insight into an investigation like that. Police in his robust isn't.
Speaker 2: It It is a robust situation, yes.
Speaker 1: But people have opinions. I think you identified there's competing
Speaker 1: interest too, whether we've got the resources and all that does.
Speaker 1: Do you think the public are aware of what goes
Speaker 1: on in an investigation.
Speaker 2: Look, I'm positive they don't.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think that they think there's one person that takes charge.
Speaker 2: The rest are out to do whatever they are required
Speaker 2: to do by the and they dictate back to the individual,
Speaker 2: and that person makes a decision. It's not the case
Speaker 2: and should never be the case. Yeah, because everyone looks
Speaker 2: through a different set of eyes, and not everybody agrees
Speaker 2: with everybody on what has not happened.
Speaker 1: It's an unfortunate situation too, isn't it? Like it's the
Speaker 1: ideal situation is that there's input from everyone. Someone's got
Speaker 1: to make the final call, Like there's got to be
Speaker 1: like in the army, they in the police, there's got
Speaker 1: to be someone that makes a final call. But it's
Speaker 1: input from everyone. But I think what happened on that investigation,
Speaker 1: what's happened on countless other high profile investigations. You hear
Speaker 1: them from overseas and Madeline McCain one that all blew up.
Speaker 1: It just seems to be the nature of some high profile,
Speaker 1: high profile investigations. I've been in a position where I'm
Speaker 1: running investigations. I've had people put that in, but they
Speaker 1: don't fully understand the full picture of it. So I
Speaker 1: think we'd accept that that you don't fully under someone
Speaker 1: might the inquiry that you and Ken have done. You've
Speaker 1: got your suspicions, but someone else might have some other
Speaker 1: lines of inquiry that take priority. So I think we
Speaker 1: give him the fair call lead a couple of other
Speaker 1: things that you've bought up or in conversations I had
Speaker 1: with you that the prolonged suffering of Daniel's family. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we're looking with the benefit of hindsight looking back.
Speaker 1: But I've got to say, from what you were saying
Speaker 1: back in the early days when you speak to him,
Speaker 1: you have been proven to be right. It could have
Speaker 1: been you were wrong, and you would accept that, as
Speaker 1: fate would have it, you were correct. But if those
Speaker 1: lines of inquiry were followed up, perhaps the Daniel's family
Speaker 1: wouldn't have suffered and they're still suffering, but wouldn't have
Speaker 1: gone through the turmoil of not knowing what's happened, which
Speaker 1: causes adds to the pain.
Speaker 2: It does, And I think there's two sides to that.
Speaker 2: That's one side that any hindsight, there's not much we
Speaker 2: could do about that, so time will march on, and
Speaker 2: unfortunately he has passed, and that's terrible. But the other
Speaker 2: issue is in that eight years you've got this terrible
Speaker 2: that has been roaming the streets. What victims have happened
Speaker 2: between then and his arrest that nobody knows about haven't
Speaker 2: come forward, are killed and lying in a ditch somewhere
Speaker 2: that nobody has reported missing, or has been molested. My
Speaker 2: good mate was the undercover that jumped on the plane
Speaker 2: with him from Brisbane to Perth and lived with him
Speaker 2: for some period of time. He was telling me a
Speaker 2: story that over in Perth he tried to molest a
Speaker 2: child on the railway lines. So he didn't stop doing
Speaker 2: what he does. Between two thousand and three and upon
Speaker 2: his arrest, he was still committee offenses. So we had
Speaker 2: a whole line nearly a decade of offending that we've
Speaker 2: allowed him to do because we had egos and we
Speaker 2: didn't want to rock the boat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you put it that way, and looking at
Speaker 1: the type of person is I'd say one hundred percent
Speaker 1: he's committed other offenses in that period of time. But look,
Speaker 1: there's discussing with you about this. It just brings home
Speaker 1: how complex investigations are and all the personalities that come
Speaker 1: into play. I still think the way investigations best practice reliant,
Speaker 1: reliant facts, reporting, accountability. The sad thing with this is
Speaker 1: that the public's perception is that the police are all
Speaker 1: working together as one unit. I haven't met police that
Speaker 1: I know that a crime like this don't want to
Speaker 1: solve it. As I wouldn't suggest you didn't want to
Speaker 1: solve the investigation or anyone working on it. But yeah,
Speaker 1: when things become skew, if and opportunities are missed. What
Speaker 1: you described in speaking to I can only look at
Speaker 1: it from my perspective, from my experience as a homicide detective.
Speaker 1: What you provided, they're that information I'm getting. I was
Speaker 1: getting excited. I think I use the word excited, but
Speaker 1: that's how I feel on the investigation. If I was
Speaker 1: told that information, if I was looking on this, there
Speaker 1: was a lot of indicators there and it's a shame
Speaker 1: that it wasn't followed up on. But I'll sit here
Speaker 1: comfortably saying that's a line of inquiry. If that information
Speaker 1: has passed on the way you've relaid it here, I
Speaker 1: would have got very excited about following that up and
Speaker 1: would have given it a degree of priority.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I think it was an opportunity missed. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I agree with you that you clearly there was
Speaker 2: nobody involved in that investigation didn't want the outcome to
Speaker 2: be as positive it could be, and would not do
Speaker 2: anything to overturn, you know, to turn every stone over
Speaker 2: to find the person or persons responsible. You know, and
Speaker 2: we all talk about in the intelligence community you get
Speaker 2: A one intelligence and C two and all that sort
Speaker 2: of stuff. We were a one, We were detectives. The
Speaker 2: evidence we got was first hand. Why wasn't it treated
Speaker 2: as a one evidence?
Speaker 1: Well, it just wasn't you know a simple rule of
Speaker 1: FUNB that I go, Opportunity, capability, and motive. They're the three.
Speaker 1: And that's how I approached the William Tyrell thing, those
Speaker 1: three headings, and that's what I'm looking for when I'm
Speaker 1: looking at the suspect. What you just provided there from
Speaker 1: that meeting that you had with him in two weeks. Opportunity,
Speaker 1: capability and motive like tic tick that would have he
Speaker 1: goes straight to the top of the list. I'm going
Speaker 1: to offer an opinion from a homicide to take this
Speaker 1: point of view what you've relaid to me, that would
Speaker 1: have just be shining a bright light. I'd be looking
Speaker 1: looking at that and that's not me sitting here with
Speaker 1: the benefit of the pine sight. I've always talked about
Speaker 1: there the way I approached these difficult investigations. I saw
Speaker 1: it early in my homicide career. When you come in
Speaker 1: as the raw kid and some of the people that
Speaker 1: I looked up to, my mentors and the people I
Speaker 1: aspired to be. What I found was how inclusive they
Speaker 1: were at the briefings and it literally could be the
Speaker 1: most junior officer there would make the table would be open. Now,
Speaker 1: has anyone got any thoughts? And I watched the way
Speaker 1: they operated, and I'd like to think that that I
Speaker 1: adopted that attitude, and that's certainly what I tried to adopt,
Speaker 1: is that listen to everyone in the room, take all
Speaker 1: the information on because it can be someone's just viewpoint
Speaker 1: that might be the thing that clinches the clinches the deal.
Speaker 1: And again, breakthroughs on investigations like that and I push this,
Speaker 1: and you've really brought me back into a criminal investigation
Speaker 1: having the chat with you. You've got to take those
Speaker 1: wins when you can. So when you've seen something like that,
Speaker 1: and just the way that he changed from I didn't
Speaker 1: see him. I might have seen him type thing that
Speaker 1: could be lost on people that don't have experience, but
Speaker 1: people that have experience, to me, that was okay, that's
Speaker 1: something that interests me. Other people might go, oh, no,
Speaker 1: he just he forgot about that before. It's the way
Speaker 1: that you look at things. And I thought that gave
Speaker 1: a real interesting insight into what good police do and
Speaker 1: they speak to a suspect than what you're taking into account.
Speaker 1: And I read somewhere you talked about it briefly, but
Speaker 1: just the fact that tidy himself up and you'd seen
Speaker 1: that in pedophiles before, after they commit the offense, that's
Speaker 1: tidy yourself up and presents as this good person forget
Speaker 1: about the evil I've done. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, I've often had a bit of an argument, and
Speaker 2: we have some police psychologists.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're always good to argue with you. They always
Speaker 1: tell you you just got a fatheriship.
Speaker 2: That's yeah, that's right. You know, I did have an
Speaker 2: argument there once with one and she said, we can't
Speaker 2: pigeonhole people. Dennis, I said, good, you can pigeon old people.
Speaker 2: I said, why can't you pigeono Yeah? You know, I said,
Speaker 2: if he just rapes little boys, he's a homosexual pedophile.
Speaker 2: He rapes little girl. It's a head po sexual pedophile.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's pretty simple stuff, isn't it. And because
Speaker 2: that's what I bring that up. Because the other person
Speaker 2: they were looking out close. He was a fellow called
Speaker 2: Jack Waite. Yep, he was an asexual predator, right, so
Speaker 2: he would males or females. Yeah, but he was more Yes,
Speaker 2: there was opportunity with Daniel. It was more hunted from Daniel.
Speaker 2: But this this jackaway just sort of stumbled onto people
Speaker 2: like he was walking along a track and he would
Speaker 2: fine that sort of stuff. You know. He never sort
Speaker 2: of went out of his way as a hunter, and
Speaker 2: yet cow and did he He saw his prey, hunted
Speaker 2: the prey and got his prey. That's what happened in
Speaker 2: every one of his occasions. And it was he was
Speaker 2: singular minded in doing that. He identified the victim and
Speaker 2: that was always going to be the victim.
Speaker 1: That person there, the scary ones. They are brethathers, aren't they. Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was. You know, the description of the
Speaker 2: person seen laying or standing up next to Daniel was unkept, unshaven, ungroomed,
Speaker 2: and scruffy, you know what I mean. And when we
Speaker 2: first interviewed him at his house, he was his hair
Speaker 2: was carded with will shaven, looked clean and tidy. And
Speaker 2: then through that conversation I asked his wife and she goes, yeah,
Speaker 2: he's clean himself up a bit in the last right away.
Speaker 2: You know, they go through the honeymoon period. They sit
Speaker 2: there on the computer and masturbate themselves and carry on
Speaker 2: looking at pornography, getting their heightened senses up ready to
Speaker 2: do it, building up to it, and then go looking
Speaker 2: for a victim. And then after they finished, they're quite
Speaker 2: satisfied for a period of time, and then you know,
Speaker 2: they clean themselves up and have a shower, have a shave,
Speaker 2: and don't works just that I.
Speaker 1: Feel like setting up a whiteboard and going look, look,
Speaker 1: look if I was briefing briefing people on it. But
Speaker 1: you know, different opinions on investigations. It's healthy, but sometimes
Speaker 1: causes problems. There's casualties in investigations, but the priority should
Speaker 1: always be focused on the good thing about There is
Speaker 1: no good thing about Daniel Morkam, it's such a sad thing.
Speaker 1: But the good thing is that cow And has been
Speaker 1: taken off the streets and never never getting out and
Speaker 1: that should be the priority. Correct.
Speaker 2: But he will get out of parole.
Speaker 1: You've got that strange set up in Queensland, haven't you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I have no doubt you will see the light of day,
Speaker 2: Absolutely no doubt in my mind.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well let's uh, let's well, let's we'll get the
Speaker 1: platform started started here. But that person should never have
Speaker 1: how how he wasn't in prison for life with the
Speaker 1: case that Darren Edwards locked him up in the Northern Territory. Absolutely, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's disgraceful.
Speaker 2: It is, I agree. And the whole justice system isn't
Speaker 2: a justice system. It's a legal system that we use
Speaker 2: at the moment best we've got at the moment because
Speaker 2: there's no other there's no justice involved.
Speaker 1: So soty, the justice should be representing society and society
Speaker 1: doesn't want someone like cow out on the streets. That
Speaker 1: would be a travesty of justice. I think crimes of
Speaker 1: that nature. There just be a public outrage. I'd like
Speaker 1: to think that would override there's we're all entitled to
Speaker 1: redemption that some people give up their right. So you
Speaker 1: enjoying post life outside out of the cops, out of
Speaker 1: the military.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look involved at the moment with RSL. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: and that sort of stuff. But other than that, a
Speaker 2: lot of work really for me, more work than what
Speaker 2: I was doing when I was working.
Speaker 1: It's amazing that when you do live policing where you
Speaker 1: think your life is all consumed, you manage to find
Speaker 1: things and you think, how did I have time to
Speaker 1: do those jobs? But look, I've really enjoyed the chat.
Speaker 1: It's been a long time coming. I want to thank
Speaker 1: you for your military service for the country, your service
Speaker 1: to the community as a cop, and the fact you're
Speaker 1: one of those cops that care. And I just I
Speaker 1: mean that it means so much that people like you
Speaker 1: actually care about what's going on and you do make
Speaker 1: a difference. So yeah, full full credit to you. Thanks
Speaker 1: for telling this story and what you've been through, and
Speaker 1: I hope all the best for the future.
Speaker 2: No, thanks very much, and it's been an honored to
Speaker 2: build been a privilege never nan to nine.