1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life, the average person is never 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. 14 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: In part two of my chat, we've retired Queensland Police 15 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: detective Dennis Martin. Dennis told us some details about his 16 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: interaction with Daniel Morkham's killer, Brett Cowen. It was quite 17 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: chilling what he had to say, and we're going to 18 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: go into more detail now. And I think listeners who 19 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: want to know what is going through a detective's mind 20 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: when sizing up a suspect, you are going to find 21 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: this fascinating. It also gives us an insight in the 22 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: pressures of being involved in a high profile investigation and 23 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: the robust nature of policing when the stakes are high 24 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: and there's always differences of opinions regarding how matters should 25 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: be approached. I think you're going to find this part 26 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: of the conversation fascinating. Durns Martin, welcome back to part 27 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: two of I Catchkillers. Thanks for that. I'm really enjoying 28 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: our chat and it brings back a lot of memories 29 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: in the policing and different different experiences. In part one, 30 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: we talked about your childhood where you grew up in Maure, 31 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: talked about your career in the army and then going 32 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: across to policing and your fairly extensive undercover career within policing. 33 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: Then you went to Task Force Argos, which was investigating 34 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: child sex offenders, and that's how you got tied up 35 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: with the investigation into the disappearance of Daniel Morcambe. I 36 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: think when we left part one we're talking about you'd 37 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: been given the file perhaps two weeks, so, two weeks 38 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: after Daniel disappeared back in two thousand and three, I 39 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: think seventh of December two thousand and three to go 40 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: and speak to a call them a person of interest. 41 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: It's just anyone that's on the list a Brett Cowen, 42 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: What were your impressions when you went there? Talk us 43 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: through what happened when you went to that location. 44 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, my partner and I were driving along. It 45 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 2: was a little near Palmwood's, nice little little area. It 46 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,679 Speaker 2: was maybe half sort of acres here, and there drove 47 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 2: up the driveway. His house was on the front of 48 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 2: the block. There was a house behind, and in hindsight, 49 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 2: I now I know that it was the pastor's house. 50 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: He was one of the people that were sort of 51 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 2: sponsoring him. But anyway, there was a lot of I 52 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: wouldn't say kids toys, but there were a lot of 53 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: things around in the yard, like little windmills that he 54 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: would make cow and made and all that sort of 55 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 2: thing would take the markets and sell. But they were 56 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 2: painted in such a way that to me, I thought 57 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: a kid would want them. You know, they were like 58 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 2: butterflies on the blades and all that sort of stuff. 59 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: So I said to Ken straight, I so that's a 60 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 2: bit strange, man, you know, it just just looks like 61 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 2: a kid's area, and I knew he didn't have any 62 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: children at that age. So he had a front porch 63 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 2: out the front, which was a concrete I guess porch 64 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: with no cover. And before we went there, I did 65 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 2: read some witness statements. One of the witness statements said 66 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: that on the left hand side, going towards Nambor, there 67 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: was a full drive with a black Snorkell park there 68 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 2: right during the time that Daniel was allegedly under the 69 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: underpass waiting for the bus. So I kept that in 70 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: the back of my mind. 71 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: Okay, so this is in when you're getting your head 72 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: around the circumstances of Daniel's disappearance. There was that four 73 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: will drive with the black Snorkel. That's great, Yes, yeah, yeah, 74 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: in the center of where Daniel was last scene alive. 75 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 2: That's right. The vehicle itself would have been where the 76 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 2: witness said it was directly across the road. But given 77 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 2: that that roade was two lanes towards Nanboor and two 78 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 2: lanes the other side, it may have been one hundred 79 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: meters or one hundred fifty meters, but it was still 80 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 2: there obviously to observe that's what you do from there. 81 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: So we drove in the driveway and here is a 82 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: white full drive with a black snorkel. And I said 83 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: to Ken, I said, I think it's something going on here. 84 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: This is a little bit. I don't believe in coincidences. 85 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 2: It's a coincidence that to me is a key indicator 86 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 2: that person or that person now becomes more of a 87 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 2: person of interest and to me steps up the ladder 88 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: towards the suspect. But that's just what it was at 89 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: the time on the observation of that car. So we 90 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: helped out and started to take record. Are running knocked 91 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 2: on the door and outsteps Brett Peter Kown. Now he 92 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:11,119 Speaker 2: had some shorts on, I think, and a collarge shirt. 93 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 2: I think it might have been a white college I 94 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: can't remember now. But he was quite well, you know, 95 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 2: his hair was cut, he was shaven, but he stood 96 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 2: in a funny way. He's still with his shoulders back 97 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: of it. He was a skinny sort of fellow, you know, 98 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 2: and sort of anything moving was sentuated, you know, that's 99 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 2: sort of the way he was. And he was very 100 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 2: cocky and straight away I didn't like him. And I 101 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 2: said to Ken, you know, I said, just keep an 102 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 2: eye on this bloke mate. So we got talking to 103 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 2: him and we asked him where he was at the time, 104 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: and he's very blase. I don't know, really I was. 105 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 2: I was around, and I said, we're going to have 106 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 2: to sort this out pretty quickly, Brett, because I don't 107 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 2: have all day to deal with dickheads, you know, and 108 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 2: you've got to be straight up. Well, I was straight 109 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: up with these people, you know. I don't have time 110 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 2: to mark around with you. 111 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: Ah. 112 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 2: Well, I might have gone in and picked something up 113 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 2: at Namble. So then we were starting to get the 114 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,799 Speaker 2: picture of Okay, so you've you know, you've gone to Namble. 115 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 2: Which way did you drive to Namble? Anyway? So he said, oh, 116 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 2: I drove and underpass and all that sort of stuff. 117 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 2: I said, you happen to see a little child with 118 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: black hair on the underpass from the other side near 119 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: the bus stop. No, no, not at all. Never never 120 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: saw anybody, I said, but somebody has said that they 121 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 2: saw your car. I said it was his car parked 122 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 2: on the other side of the road. I don't know how. 123 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 2: He said, I never stopped. I said, I didn't say 124 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 2: you stopped. I said, they said it was parked on it. 125 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 2: I said, did you stop. No, no, it never stopped 126 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 2: at all. I said, did you see a white fall 127 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 2: drive with a snock on it? No? I said, do 128 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: you think it was to be a coincidence that you 129 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 2: drive a white car with a snorkel it's a foo 130 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 2: will drive and someone saying they saw something similar on 131 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: that side. 132 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: Of the road. 133 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 2: I said, you're a pedophile, bad one by the sound 134 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: of it. I said, and yet you know I've looked 135 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 2: at And I was only bluffing at the time because 136 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: I didn't have any on who the other children were. 137 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 2: I said that that Daniel is in your age group, 138 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 2: and he goes, well, he looked at it. I said, 139 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: oh did he? Yeah, I said, I thought you said. 140 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: He didn't say anybody I might have pulled over. So 141 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 2: now we've established two things. If firstly you're pulled over, 142 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: you reckon. You've seen Daniel, I said, and you're a liar. 143 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: But we all know you're alive, because pedophiles are liars. 144 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: So then he started to get cranky, and I was 145 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 2: really only trying to fluster him and get him sort 146 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 2: of stirred up, you know. And then his wife came 147 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 2: out and she happened to be not the prettiest little thing, 148 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 2: you know. And they had a young child, and I 149 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 2: took her aside. I said, do you know the history 150 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 2: of this fellow that you're married to? I know everything, 151 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 2: I said. Did you know that he raped until he 152 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: murdered a young boy here in queens And some years ago, 153 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: and they did the same up in Darwin. No, I 154 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: didn't know that. I said to you that with your 155 00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 2: child alone, he said, because I do. It's my husband. 156 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: I said, well, do you know what happens when he 157 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 2: takes an appy with that child? So then she started 158 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: to carry on an arc up a bit, and I 159 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 2: was really only trying to get some sort of alia 160 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 2: nation between them both, you know, And. 161 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: Look, and people might be listening to listening to this, 162 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: and go, is that what happens? That's what I think, 163 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: good pleas to. You're going in there, you've got to 164 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: and I understand exactly what you're doing there. And if 165 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: you're go in, did you see anything? No? I thank 166 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: you very much, sir, and walk away. That's not how 167 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: the world operates. 168 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 2: No, And they'll tell you that every day. 169 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So I'm fascinated to keep going with the story. Sorry, 170 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: when they're up. 171 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 2: So after that, obviously you know I've said to cow 172 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: and I said, look, I disagree that you would have 173 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 2: paid much attention to Daniel, given that you like little boys, 174 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 2: particularly with dark hair, and Daniel was a little boy 175 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: with dark hair. I said, if I liked blonde and 176 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 2: big breast, so I said, and I noticed that I 177 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 2: would notice. It's simple, I said, you don't have to 178 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 2: lie to me. I said, if that's what you noticed, 179 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 2: that to what you noticed, I said, I'm not saying 180 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 2: you did anything, just asking you. Oh, well, I might 181 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 2: have seen him. Yeah, he was there. So Lisa put 182 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 2: him there at that time. And that's a start. 183 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: That's a big, big start. And the way the way 184 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: the information came out too, holding it back and then 185 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: under the pressure a little bit and then gives you 186 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: a little bit more. Yeah, yeah, so significant. 187 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 2: We tried to knock him off off keel to a 188 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: little bit here, so he wasn't both feet on the ground. 189 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 2: He was one day in the air and thinking, oh, 190 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: I don't know which way to go yet. Yeah. So 191 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 2: then I said, well, I think we wouldn't mind having 192 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 2: a bit of look around inside your house. I said, 193 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:34,719 Speaker 2: what for, I said, I just want to have a 194 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 2: little look if that's okay. And I had no right really, 195 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 2: but he said, oh, come. 196 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: In and have a mask. 197 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he did. He said, we'll come in and 198 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 2: have a look. So we did. And I said to 199 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 2: her on the side, I said, so when when did 200 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: he leave the other day on the seventh? And she goes, oh, 201 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: I think you left around lunchtime? And I said, he 202 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 2: can keep him outside. He was away. And then I said, 203 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 2: well when did he come back? She said, oh, around 204 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 2: about two is threeh I said, well that's a fair time. 205 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 2: I said, we're talking an hour or so, you know. 206 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 2: I said, did he do anything strange when you come back? Yeah, 207 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: he got me to wash all his clothes. I said, 208 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 2: why would he do that? I said, did he do 209 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 2: it on a regular basis? 210 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: No? 211 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 2: I said, I'm here asking his questions. Now, I said, 212 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 2: are you just stupid? I said, can you see where 213 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 2: I'm coming from? No? She said no, no, I can't. 214 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 2: You know he's just a terrific fellow. I said, not 215 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 2: a trivial fellow, I said, a pedophile, his rape children 216 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: before you were a child here? I said, how stupid 217 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 2: are you? So I had to leave her because I 218 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 2: just couldn't put up with her. She was just some 219 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 2: people are just stupid and you can't talk anything. They're 220 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: like religious zealots. 221 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: Couldn't get it doesn't matter what you say. I'm not 222 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: going to register. 223 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter. So we got out and saw him 224 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: and he said, well, look I was gone for a 225 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 2: period of time, he said, And I went and saw 226 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: a mate, said nimble, and got a mulcha from him. 227 00:10:58,120 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 2: I said, okay, who's this mate? And all this sort 228 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 2: of stuff. We got that, and we said, look, while 229 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 2: we're here, we want to take your DNA, your fingerprints, 230 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 2: not that we really need them because we've got them 231 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 2: on fire, but would take them anyway, and some either 232 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 2: identifying particularly some pictures of you and your tattoos and 233 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 2: your car and whatnot. And you've got a bit cranky 234 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 2: with the car anyway, so that's all right. So we 235 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: then left him after we were there maybe an hour. Yeah, 236 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 2: I guess. Left And I said to Ken, I said, mate, 237 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,719 Speaker 2: if he didn't do Daniel Morkham, I said, you know, 238 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 2: he's right for something, but I'm pretty sure that's who 239 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 2: did it. 240 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: So I'm fascinated on a couple of couple of points 241 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: there I think it's interesting that it's almost sometimes it's 242 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: a test where people don't arc up like you, I 243 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: want to have a look through your house, Like if 244 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 1: you had nothing to do with it, he'd probably stay 245 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: staunched and piss off, you're not coming in my house. 246 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: But he's trying to be compliant, and it's a real 247 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: battle of the mines, isn't it that Yeah, at that 248 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: point in time, because you know, you don't know, and 249 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: you've got to push things to get the reactions so 250 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: you can make an assessment. 251 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: Well, that's true. And if everyone remind remembers in the 252 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 2: back of my mind and Cans and my partners, we 253 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 2: were still looking for Daniel. Daniel could have been in 254 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 2: one of the rooms, could have been one of the cupboards, 255 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 2: could have been anywhere. So that house needed to be searched, 256 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 2: and whether it be done with his permission or not, 257 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 2: it was going to get serched, trust me. 258 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 1: And I think that sometimes people forget that. And when 259 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: I took over the Wim Tural matter, I felt that 260 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 1: pressure too, like we don't know what's happened to Wim Turrell. 261 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: So every inquiry you're making, you're wondering if this child's 262 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: still alive. 263 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 2: Absolutely, because you'd be lifting our boxes outside of the 264 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 2: garden looking in the shed because he could have been 265 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 2: tied up there. There's no reason why he wasn't. He 266 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 2: hadn't been found to that stage, so it could have been. 267 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 2: It was quite feasible for him to He's still been 268 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 2: alive and kept. 269 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: So you're there for about an now. Certainly the indicators 270 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: that you've or the things that you've told me there, 271 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm looking at red flag, red flag you and can 272 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: get back in the car, tell us the conversation you 273 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: guys have, because I always find it fascinating, the conversation 274 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: because you can't say, you can't declare it in front 275 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: of each other or in front of the suspect. But 276 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: when you get back in the car, you can't wait 277 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 1: to compare notes and get the others insights and tell 278 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: us about the conversation. 279 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 2: Look, you know, straight away we looked at each other 280 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 2: and said, he's right for it, and if it's not 281 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 2: right for something, but we're pretty confident he's right for 282 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: Daniel walkhambe. So we said, look, our next plan of 283 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 2: attack will be we'll drive the route that he said, 284 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 2: take times, take kilometers, and we'll go and see the alibi. 285 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 2: So we did that. It was around about forty five minutes. 286 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: So you did that straight away, straight away. 287 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, straight away. It was that I was aware of it, 288 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: that I thought that everything else could wait, need to prioritize. Yeah, absolutely, 289 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: So we did that, and we went to the fellow 290 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 2: that had the multure, because you did say sorry during 291 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 2: the conversation when he stopped at the maltitari he had 292 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 2: a cup of tea or something and chattered to the fellow. 293 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 2: And we went to to the bloke that had the 294 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: mulcha and he was going with his wife. So he 295 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 2: was with his wife and we sat down in his house. 296 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 2: I said, cowan turned up to get the malted you 297 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 2: know where did you have a cup of tea? He said, 298 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 2: you have a couple of tea, You said, my wife 299 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 2: nogating out to a party. I think it was my memory. 300 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 2: He pulled up in the car, lowered his targeate, we 301 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 2: put the malta in the way he went. He never 302 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: stopped at all. No, he said, wouldn't have been any 303 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: more than five minutes. So there we picked up another 304 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: at least twenty minutes of his alibi. 305 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: And there crucial things like the alibi is that's you 306 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: build or you build a case on the alibi. If 307 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: the alibi stands up, you're looking at the wrong person. 308 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: But when someone's lying about their alibi, that's where it 309 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: gets your interest up straight away. 310 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 2: Yes, And the issue was that the way he went 311 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 2: allegedly went back home took him onto the same side 312 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: that Daniel Morgan would have been. 313 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: Right. 314 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: So what we're obviously looking at in that period of 315 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: time his vehicle was pulled over to site Daniel. Yeah, 316 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 2: he's gone to get the mulcha, didn't stay for and 317 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 2: that multa would have been maybe eight kilometers up the road, 318 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 2: so double laned highway might have been four minutes to 319 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 2: drive there, five minutes there by the alibi to say 320 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 2: that's what occurred, and six minutes the other side. In 321 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 2: that time the bus has gone past, or the buses 322 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: broken down, replacement buses gone past. Daniel's still there, given 323 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 2: him plenty of time to come back. And in hindsight 324 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 2: we now know from his admission that what he did 325 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 2: was he did go past, and he did see Daniel 326 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 2: still there, and he went back up and parked into 327 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: the car park of a church where he used to 328 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: go to church as a sponsor that lived near him. 329 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: Palm Woods was a pastor there. And then he walked 330 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 2: down the back way right next to Daniel and that's 331 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: where he abducted him from. That's Cowen's own words. 332 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: And so this is a call of for one of 333 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: the better words, a case theory that you're building on 334 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: the timeline that what he's told you, the suspicions you've 335 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: got from what he told you, and the way he 336 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: revealed the information you've done that check he's ourbi doesn't 337 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: check check out. Timeline doesn't check out in terms of 338 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: his travel, and you've put him in the in the scene. 339 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 2: That's correct here. 340 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, so okay, Well I'm from a detect this point 341 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: of view. I'm excited on this piece of information. 342 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, we were excited and obviously not excited to 343 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 2: the way people would think, but we were thinking every 344 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 2: step of the way, this fellow's more for the job 345 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 2: than what is not. So we went back to the 346 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 2: station Maruchi door, got a few things sorted out, and 347 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: we went back to his place of employment where he 348 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 2: had his full drive. He was worked at a tow 349 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 2: truck business, and took some pictures of his tires and 350 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: a few more pictures of the car. Took some tread 351 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 2: pats of his car to see if there was something 352 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 2: on the other side of the road so we could 353 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: say your car was definitely there. He admitted it, but 354 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 2: we'd like to get some pre yeah. Anyway, So that 355 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 2: was that. So we went back that evening put the 356 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 2: full report together. Was that, you know, we don't do 357 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 2: that for every one of the people. For Alibis, we 358 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 2: have put a big kick and say it's no good 359 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: blah blah blah. So we do a full report. We're 360 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: then made representation to the Major Enginet room that you know, 361 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 2: we really think we should brief you on this person 362 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 2: should be a main suspect. Ken brief the the major 363 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: engine room the next day. Yep, and that was it. 364 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 1: It was quietly dismissed, right, okay, yeah, so just and 365 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: this is like the build up to it. But I 366 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: just wanted to get sense from you what you were 367 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: dealing with at the time. So I'm looking at it. 368 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: You've gone to make this inquiry. There's enough indicators there 369 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: to get you excited about the inquiry. And when I'm 370 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: saying excited, it's not a horrendous crime, but from an 371 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: investigative point of view, excited that you might be on something. 372 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: Your instinct and the information that you got I didn't 373 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: check out. You've had it got him in the vicinity. 374 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: He's opportunity, most even capability. That's what I always look 375 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: for when I'm looking for a suspect for a crime. 376 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: And he ticks all three boxes. There, you've gone back. 377 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: You followed up the inquiries that you could make and say, 378 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: people understand the working of a strikeforce, it being Queensland 379 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: or down here. All that information comes in at briefings, 380 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: as you said, can brief the major incident team and 381 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: said okay, this is our take on it. You've done 382 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: the report, submitted that and you would think that there 383 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: would be some priority given to what needs needs to 384 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: be done at that point in time. 385 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 2: Our report dictated that that should have been the case. 386 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 2: The report was very you know, my reports are reasonably 387 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 2: concise and very clear and accurate in relation to what 388 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 2: recommendations should and should not be done. The recommendations on 389 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: that report were very clear. You know basically that a 390 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: summarization that would be he is your main suspect. If 391 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 2: he's not, he should everything should be done to rule 392 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 2: him out rather than sorry, rule him in, rather than 393 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 2: trying to rule him out. Yep. And that's how it 394 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: should be. And that's every possibility that was COVID, that 395 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 2: was electronic, that was surveillance, and yeah, they never even 396 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 2: went and seized his computers. 397 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,719 Speaker 1: So Daniel disappeared on the seventh of December two thousand 398 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: and three, yourself and can spoke to Cowen about two 399 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: weeks later, brief Task Force members and compile the report 400 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: of their suspicions. What we've just talked about. In two 401 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 1: thousand and six, I think Cowen was a game interview 402 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: by the Strikeforce because it was still unsolved. So you're 403 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: looking at two thousand and three. Detectives have gone back 404 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: to speak to Cowen at two thousand and six. I 405 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: assume you weren't working on it at that stage. 406 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 2: No. I was walking past the toilets on Level three 407 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 2: at the time and was called in. They said that 408 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 2: they were going to get him to talk to him again. 409 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: Could I give them some hints? I saw the biggest 410 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 2: hint would be going to get this report that we wrote. Yeah, 411 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: and they found the report and they said, is this 412 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 2: a reporter that yes it is, I said, and they said, 413 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 2: well he've moved to New South Wales now, right, and 414 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 2: I think he refused to come back for some reason anyway, 415 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 2: so that was it. 416 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: So that was that sort of okay, So they've still 417 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: got the report. Yes, for whatever reason, the cycle's gone around, 418 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: and yeah, there's a lot of inquiries going on. I 419 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: think you and I both understand that you've got an 420 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: instinct on that. I'm sure there's other cops have gone 421 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: out and spoken to someone else that thinks, okay, maybe 422 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: that person's good for it as well. But anyway, two 423 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: thousand and six, he's been interviewed again. I'd take it 424 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: he's denied any involvement or they couldn't gather any evidence 425 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: on it. October twenty twelve and April twenty eleven Akrainal 426 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: inquest was held, so at this stage Daniel's disappearance hasn't 427 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: been solved. There's an inquest that's been held. On the 428 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: thirteenth of August two thousand, eleven eleven, after an undercover operation, 429 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: police took cow In in the custody in charge. So 430 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: that's eight years later or almost eight years later. August 431 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 1: twenty first of August, so almost a week later, a 432 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: bit over a week later, Daniel's remains were located. Thirteenth 433 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: of March twenty fourteen, Cowen was found guilty of murder 434 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: and December two thousand and eight in the inquest was 435 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: reopened after Cowen had exhausted his appeals. So Daniel disappears 436 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: in two thousand and three, and then eight years later 437 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: Cowen gets locked up. He made admissions there as an 438 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: undercover operation, contested at court, convicted, and we've gone back 439 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: to an inquest. 440 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 2: The whole idea of that coronal inquiry into the police investigation, 441 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: that's what it was, was my understanding was sold to 442 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 2: me because I was out of the police by then. Yep, 443 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 2: it sold to me that it was really to put 444 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,239 Speaker 2: ideas to the coroner so that he could make some 445 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 2: changes either legislative or policy and procedures within the police 446 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 2: to make such a thing easier for police all around, 447 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 2: for investigating into the future. I thought, great, that's a 448 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 2: good thing, the healthy thing. So Ken and I got 449 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: together and we said, what would you like to see happen? 450 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 2: And so we both agreed basically on the fact that 451 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 2: if regardless whether you're in the Major Incident Room, or 452 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 2: you are not. If you are, in our case, the 453 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 2: two police detectives that are interested in Cowen, it should 454 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: be our responsibility to investigate him one hundred and ten 455 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: percent to the point where we can say he is 456 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 2: no way in the world he is a suspect or 457 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 2: involved in the manner prior to us letting him go, 458 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 2: and that was where we were coming from. That's what 459 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 2: we wanted to put to the coroner to say that 460 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 2: these policy procedures should be put in place so that 461 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: something like this doesn't happen again. It can't be missed. 462 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: I think I'll read out Probably the easiest way to 463 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: do is read out some extracts from a media article 464 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: report the findings of the inquest in twenty eighteen. So 465 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: this is as I said. Next track from a media 466 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: article reporting on the findings of the inquest twenty eighteen. 467 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: The early police rest response to the disappearance of Queensland 468 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: boyd Daniel Morkham did not pay enough attention to his murderer, 469 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: Brett Peter Cowen as a suspect. That coroner says. Findings 470 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: have been handed down by State Coroner Terry Ryan on 471 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 1: Friday just over fifteen years since the thirteen year old 472 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: disappeared at a bus stop on his way to buy 473 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: Christmas presents for his family in two thousand and three. 474 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: Mister Ryan noted Cowen was a known child sex offender 475 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: and admitted being in the Sunshine Coast area where Daniel disappeared. 476 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: I agree with the submissions from the family and counsel 477 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: assisting that more could have been done to focus on 478 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: mister Cowen and mister Cowen in the early stages of 479 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: the investigation, mister Ryan said. He also said claims made 480 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: at the inquest by two police officers that they were 481 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: rebuffed when they raised Cowen as a suspect could not 482 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 1: be proven. So that last bit two police officers, I'm 483 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: assuming that you and Ken and it just cannot be proven. 484 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 1: Also at the inquest, mister Ryan said on Friday, immediate 485 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: police response was adequate and in line with policy. So adequate. 486 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: There's a lot of interpretations there, and in line with policy. 487 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: Given Daniel was likely killed within an hour of his abduction, 488 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: his death could not have been prevented by police, he said. 489 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting for the public to get an 490 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: insight into an investigation like that. Police in his robust isn't. 491 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 2: It It is a robust situation, yes. 492 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: But people have opinions. I think you identified there's competing 493 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: interest too, whether we've got the resources and all that does. 494 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: Do you think the public are aware of what goes 495 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: on in an investigation. 496 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: Look, I'm positive they don't. 497 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 498 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 2: I think that they think there's one person that takes charge. 499 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 2: The rest are out to do whatever they are required 500 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: to do by the and they dictate back to the individual, 501 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 2: and that person makes a decision. It's not the case 502 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 2: and should never be the case. Yeah, because everyone looks 503 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,719 Speaker 2: through a different set of eyes, and not everybody agrees 504 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 2: with everybody on what has not happened. 505 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: It's an unfortunate situation too, isn't it? Like it's the 506 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: ideal situation is that there's input from everyone. Someone's got 507 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: to make the final call, Like there's got to be 508 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: like in the army, they in the police, there's got 509 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: to be someone that makes a final call. But it's 510 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: input from everyone. But I think what happened on that investigation, 511 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: what's happened on countless other high profile investigations. You hear 512 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: them from overseas and Madeline McCain one that all blew up. 513 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: It just seems to be the nature of some high profile, 514 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 1: high profile investigations. I've been in a position where I'm 515 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: running investigations. I've had people put that in, but they 516 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: don't fully understand the full picture of it. So I 517 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: think we'd accept that that you don't fully under someone 518 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: might the inquiry that you and Ken have done. You've 519 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: got your suspicions, but someone else might have some other 520 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: lines of inquiry that take priority. So I think we 521 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: give him the fair call lead a couple of other 522 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: things that you've bought up or in conversations I had 523 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: with you that the prolonged suffering of Daniel's family. Yeah, 524 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: and we're looking with the benefit of hindsight looking back. 525 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: But I've got to say, from what you were saying 526 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: back in the early days when you speak to him, 527 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: you have been proven to be right. It could have 528 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 1: been you were wrong, and you would accept that, as 529 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: fate would have it, you were correct. But if those 530 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: lines of inquiry were followed up, perhaps the Daniel's family 531 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: wouldn't have suffered and they're still suffering, but wouldn't have 532 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: gone through the turmoil of not knowing what's happened, which 533 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: causes adds to the pain. 534 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 2: It does, And I think there's two sides to that. 535 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 2: That's one side that any hindsight, there's not much we 536 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 2: could do about that, so time will march on, and 537 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 2: unfortunately he has passed, and that's terrible. But the other 538 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 2: issue is in that eight years you've got this terrible 539 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 2: that has been roaming the streets. What victims have happened 540 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 2: between then and his arrest that nobody knows about haven't 541 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 2: come forward, are killed and lying in a ditch somewhere 542 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 2: that nobody has reported missing, or has been molested. My 543 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 2: good mate was the undercover that jumped on the plane 544 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 2: with him from Brisbane to Perth and lived with him 545 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 2: for some period of time. He was telling me a 546 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 2: story that over in Perth he tried to molest a 547 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 2: child on the railway lines. So he didn't stop doing 548 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 2: what he does. Between two thousand and three and upon 549 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 2: his arrest, he was still committee offenses. So we had 550 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 2: a whole line nearly a decade of offending that we've 551 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 2: allowed him to do because we had egos and we 552 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 2: didn't want to rock the boat. 553 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, when you put it that way, and looking at 554 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: the type of person is I'd say one hundred percent 555 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: he's committed other offenses in that period of time. But look, 556 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: there's discussing with you about this. It just brings home 557 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: how complex investigations are and all the personalities that come 558 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: into play. I still think the way investigations best practice reliant, 559 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: reliant facts, reporting, accountability. The sad thing with this is 560 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: that the public's perception is that the police are all 561 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: working together as one unit. I haven't met police that 562 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: I know that a crime like this don't want to 563 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: solve it. As I wouldn't suggest you didn't want to 564 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: solve the investigation or anyone working on it. But yeah, 565 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: when things become skew, if and opportunities are missed. What 566 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: you described in speaking to I can only look at 567 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: it from my perspective, from my experience as a homicide detective. 568 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: What you provided, they're that information I'm getting. I was 569 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: getting excited. I think I use the word excited, but 570 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: that's how I feel on the investigation. If I was 571 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,239 Speaker 1: told that information, if I was looking on this, there 572 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: was a lot of indicators there and it's a shame 573 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: that it wasn't followed up on. But I'll sit here 574 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: comfortably saying that's a line of inquiry. If that information 575 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: has passed on the way you've relaid it here, I 576 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: would have got very excited about following that up and 577 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: would have given it a degree of priority. 578 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I think it was an opportunity missed. Yeah, 579 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 2: and I agree with you that you clearly there was 580 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 2: nobody involved in that investigation didn't want the outcome to 581 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 2: be as positive it could be, and would not do 582 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 2: anything to overturn, you know, to turn every stone over 583 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 2: to find the person or persons responsible. You know, and 584 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 2: we all talk about in the intelligence community you get 585 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: A one intelligence and C two and all that sort 586 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 2: of stuff. We were a one, We were detectives. The 587 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 2: evidence we got was first hand. Why wasn't it treated 588 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 2: as a one evidence? 589 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: Well, it just wasn't you know a simple rule of 590 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: FUNB that I go, Opportunity, capability, and motive. They're the three. 591 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: And that's how I approached the William Tyrell thing, those 592 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: three headings, and that's what I'm looking for when I'm 593 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: looking at the suspect. What you just provided there from 594 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: that meeting that you had with him in two weeks. Opportunity, 595 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: capability and motive like tic tick that would have he 596 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: goes straight to the top of the list. I'm going 597 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: to offer an opinion from a homicide to take this 598 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: point of view what you've relaid to me, that would 599 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: have just be shining a bright light. I'd be looking 600 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: looking at that and that's not me sitting here with 601 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: the benefit of the pine sight. I've always talked about 602 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: there the way I approached these difficult investigations. I saw 603 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: it early in my homicide career. When you come in 604 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: as the raw kid and some of the people that 605 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: I looked up to, my mentors and the people I 606 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: aspired to be. What I found was how inclusive they 607 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: were at the briefings and it literally could be the 608 00:30:55,880 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: most junior officer there would make the table would be open. Now, 609 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: has anyone got any thoughts? And I watched the way 610 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: they operated, and I'd like to think that that I 611 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: adopted that attitude, and that's certainly what I tried to adopt, 612 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: is that listen to everyone in the room, take all 613 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: the information on because it can be someone's just viewpoint 614 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: that might be the thing that clinches the clinches the deal. 615 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: And again, breakthroughs on investigations like that and I push this, 616 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: and you've really brought me back into a criminal investigation 617 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: having the chat with you. You've got to take those 618 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: wins when you can. So when you've seen something like that, 619 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: and just the way that he changed from I didn't 620 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: see him. I might have seen him type thing that 621 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: could be lost on people that don't have experience, but 622 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: people that have experience, to me, that was okay, that's 623 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: something that interests me. Other people might go, oh, no, 624 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: he just he forgot about that before. It's the way 625 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: that you look at things. And I thought that gave 626 00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:00,040 Speaker 1: a real interesting insight into what good police do and 627 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: they speak to a suspect than what you're taking into account. 628 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: And I read somewhere you talked about it briefly, but 629 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: just the fact that tidy himself up and you'd seen 630 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: that in pedophiles before, after they commit the offense, that's 631 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: tidy yourself up and presents as this good person forget 632 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: about the evil I've done. Yeah. 633 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 2: Well, I've often had a bit of an argument, and 634 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 2: we have some police psychologists. 635 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're always good to argue with you. They always 636 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: tell you you just got a fatheriship. 637 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 2: That's yeah, that's right. You know, I did have an 638 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 2: argument there once with one and she said, we can't 639 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 2: pigeonhole people. Dennis, I said, good, you can pigeon old people. 640 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 2: I said, why can't you pigeono Yeah? You know, I said, 641 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 2: if he just rapes little boys, he's a homosexual pedophile. 642 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 2: He rapes little girl. It's a head po sexual pedophile. 643 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: I mean, it's pretty simple stuff, isn't it. And because 644 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 2: that's what I bring that up. Because the other person 645 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,479 Speaker 2: they were looking out close. He was a fellow called 646 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 2: Jack Waite. Yep, he was an asexual predator, right, so 647 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 2: he would males or females. Yeah, but he was more Yes, 648 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 2: there was opportunity with Daniel. It was more hunted from Daniel. 649 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 2: But this this jackaway just sort of stumbled onto people 650 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 2: like he was walking along a track and he would 651 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 2: fine that sort of stuff. You know. He never sort 652 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 2: of went out of his way as a hunter, and 653 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 2: yet cow and did he He saw his prey, hunted 654 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 2: the prey and got his prey. That's what happened in 655 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 2: every one of his occasions. And it was he was 656 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 2: singular minded in doing that. He identified the victim and 657 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 2: that was always going to be the victim. 658 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: That person there, the scary ones. They are brethathers, aren't they. Yeah? 659 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was. You know, the description of the 660 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 2: person seen laying or standing up next to Daniel was unkept, unshaven, ungroomed, 661 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 2: and scruffy, you know what I mean. And when we 662 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 2: first interviewed him at his house, he was his hair 663 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 2: was carded with will shaven, looked clean and tidy. And 664 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 2: then through that conversation I asked his wife and she goes, yeah, 665 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 2: he's clean himself up a bit in the last right away. 666 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:02,959 Speaker 2: You know, they go through the honeymoon period. They sit 667 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 2: there on the computer and masturbate themselves and carry on 668 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 2: looking at pornography, getting their heightened senses up ready to 669 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 2: do it, building up to it, and then go looking 670 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 2: for a victim. And then after they finished, they're quite 671 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 2: satisfied for a period of time, and then you know, 672 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 2: they clean themselves up and have a shower, have a shave, 673 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 2: and don't works just that I. 674 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: Feel like setting up a whiteboard and going look, look, 675 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: look if I was briefing briefing people on it. But 676 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: you know, different opinions on investigations. It's healthy, but sometimes 677 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: causes problems. There's casualties in investigations, but the priority should 678 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: always be focused on the good thing about There is 679 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: no good thing about Daniel Morkam, it's such a sad thing. 680 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: But the good thing is that cow And has been 681 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 1: taken off the streets and never never getting out and 682 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: that should be the priority. Correct. 683 00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 2: But he will get out of parole. 684 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 1: You've got that strange set up in Queensland, haven't you. Yeah. 685 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 2: I have no doubt you will see the light of day, 686 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely no doubt in my mind. 687 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, well let's uh, let's well, let's we'll get the 688 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 1: platform started started here. But that person should never have 689 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: how how he wasn't in prison for life with the 690 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: case that Darren Edwards locked him up in the Northern Territory. Absolutely, yeah, 691 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: it's disgraceful. 692 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 2: It is, I agree. And the whole justice system isn't 693 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 2: a justice system. It's a legal system that we use 694 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 2: at the moment best we've got at the moment because 695 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 2: there's no other there's no justice involved. 696 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: So soty, the justice should be representing society and society 697 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: doesn't want someone like cow out on the streets. That 698 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: would be a travesty of justice. I think crimes of 699 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: that nature. There just be a public outrage. I'd like 700 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 1: to think that would override there's we're all entitled to 701 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: redemption that some people give up their right. So you 702 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: enjoying post life outside out of the cops, out of 703 00:35:58,440 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: the military. 704 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, look involved at the moment with RSL. Yeah, you know, 705 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 2: and that sort of stuff. But other than that, a 706 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 2: lot of work really for me, more work than what 707 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 2: I was doing when I was working. 708 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: It's amazing that when you do live policing where you 709 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,959 Speaker 1: think your life is all consumed, you manage to find 710 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: things and you think, how did I have time to 711 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: do those jobs? But look, I've really enjoyed the chat. 712 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: It's been a long time coming. I want to thank 713 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: you for your military service for the country, your service 714 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,879 Speaker 1: to the community as a cop, and the fact you're 715 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: one of those cops that care. And I just I 716 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: mean that it means so much that people like you 717 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: actually care about what's going on and you do make 718 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,879 Speaker 1: a difference. So yeah, full full credit to you. Thanks 719 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: for telling this story and what you've been through, and 720 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: I hope all the best for the future. 721 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 2: No, thanks very much, and it's been an honored to 722 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 2: build been a privilege never nan to nine.