WEBVTT - ‘You’ll be living in hell’: Is Trump threatening war crimes? 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:09.239 I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven AM. It's 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.879 been a war of shifting deadlines for President Trump, and 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:17.320 his third one expires this morning. The President's demanding Iran 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.360 reopen this strait of hor Moos or the US will 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:24.360 strike every bridge and power plan in the country. Destroy 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:29.400 all this, and you destroy Iran Today. Rachel Van Lendingham, 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:32.479 a former military lawyer in the US Air Force, on 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:36.319 Trump's case for targeting civilian infrastructure and what's it all 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:47.920 mean for international law. It's Wednesday, April eight. 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:53.159 US President Donald Trump has used abuse of language to 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:55.360 call in Iran to let ships through the street. 0:00:55.400 --> 0:00:57.960 Off her moves as he threw the children are watching. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:02.040 We warned the president did not use polite language. 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:02.720 Quote. 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:06.319 Tuesday will be power plant day and bridge day, all 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.360 wrapped up in one in Iran. There will be nothing 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:13.440 like it. Open the fucking straight, you crazy bastards, or 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:14.640 you'll be living in hell. 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:18.520 Just watch, Rachel, when Donald Trump made this threat to 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.399 hit each and every one of Iran's power plants, what 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:25.360 did you think of that? Was that just another empty 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.440 threat from Trump? Or is this something that the US 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:29.720 will actually do? 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:30.200 Well? 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:32.560 I sure hope they won't it because they'd be committing 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.440 war crimes for which there are no statute of limitations 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:39.640 and there's universal jurisdiction. It did seem to be more 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:42.679 than just an idle threat because the press briefing that 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:46.080 he gave that was ostensibly focused on the rescue, a 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:49.240 successful rescue mission of a downed pilot, But during the 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.279 question answer session he made it very clear that. 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:58.000 Every bridge in Iran will be decimated by twelve o'clock 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:02.720 tomorrow night, where every power plant in Iran will be 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:07.520 out of business, burning, exploding, and never to be used again. 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:09.280 I mean complete demolition. 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:11.400 And then he made comments about you know, bombing back 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:13.280 to the Stone Age and that they'd be set back 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:15.200 for one hundred years, et cetera. 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:17.440 Do I want to do that note? Do I want 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:21.040 to destroy their infrastructure? No, it will take them one 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:22.440 hundred years to rebuild. 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.080 That is not just empty rhetoric. That is a threat 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:27.480 to engage in a war crime. That's technically called the 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:30.960 war crime of indiscriminate attack. So we don't just go 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:33.760 after every single bridge and every single power plant. 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:36.079 We have to show that. Oh, well, first we're. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.000 Going to determine whether or not it's what we call 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:43.280 a lawful military objective. But fundamentally, the threat to destroy 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:45.320 and he didn't say disabled, he said he was going 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:49.560 to destroy each and every bridge in Iran, each and 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.320 every power plant in Iran, is threatening to commit the 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:57.960 war crime of indiscriminate attack. Second, it is impermissible to 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:02.239 intimidate the civilian population during time of war by violence 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:06.919 or reasonably foreseeable consequences of President Trump threatening total warfare 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:11.120 against Iran by destroying every bridge and every power plant 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:14.000 is that the civilian population will be terrified. 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.560 Why, you need electricity to live in the modern world. 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:22.280 You need electricity to run hospitals, you need electricity to 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:25.280 purify your water, and so it's really horrific what he's 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:26.480 actually threatened to do. 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.440 So, Rachel, what are the justifications that the US could 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:33.800 use if it wanted to go after these power plans, 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:36.280 Because it's not the first time that we've seen civilian 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:41.280 infrastructure struck during a war, for example Gaza and Ukraine, 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:45.280 So they must be some way that countries are trying 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:46.000 to justify it. 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:48.920 Well, I definitely wouldn't use Gaza as a role model 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:50.960 for how to abide by the law of arm conflict, 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:54.800 and I wouldn't use Russia attacking electrical grids in Ukraine 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.000 as a paragon of virtue. Either in the United States 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:01.120 has wrongly condemned Russia for war crimes. 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:07.680 There have been numerous credible reports of hospitals, schools, theaters, 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:11.400 et cetera being intentionally attacked. The United Nations and other 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:16.159 credible observers have confirmed hundreds of civilian deaths, and we 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:19.120 believe that the exact civilian death told will be in 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:19.839 the thousands. 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:27.080 However, individual bridges, individual power plants, despite being originally civilian objects, 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:29.800 can become a lawful military objective. 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:40.080 A key bridge Niete Ran was among the targets hit. 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:43.839 Mister Trump posted a video of its destruction, urging Iran 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:47.080 to agree a CEASEFI ideal before it's too late. 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:48.839 It's a two step process. 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.440 It's typically by either their current or intended use, not 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:56.599 speculative hypothetical. Maybe the Iranians will use this power plant 0:04:56.760 --> 0:05:02.800 eventually someday to produce energy to fuel a particular weapons 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:06.159 production company. No, it's not speculative, it's intended use. We 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:08.040 have to have facts to show they intend to use it. 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.919 Second of all, the attack right the strike here, the 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:15.360 destruction that President Trump has promised has to provide a 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:17.160 definite military advantage. 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:19.280 That's not the end of the analysis. 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.400 If a power plant's only providing electricity to a military base, 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:25.000 it's an easy military, lawful military objective take it out. 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:26.160 But that's not what we're talking about. 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:28.760 We're talking about these power plants to produce electricity for 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:35.200 that is civilian infrastructure, for civilian cities, civilian home civilian hospitals. 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.240 The United States is required to take all feasible precautions 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.240 to mitigate the impact of that military strike, that action 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:46.880 on civilians. Then the last question becomes, Okay, even using 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:50.159 all feasible precautions and attack, we have to consider whether 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.560 or not that civilian harm is excessive compared to the 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.119 direct and concrete military advantage to be gained by taking 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.920 out that power grid. And President Trump ignor that distinction 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:04.680 completely is rejecting the entire premise of the law of war, 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:10.280 which forms the moral and legal foundation for how Americans 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:13.080 and our allies fight. We are no better than the 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.839 rogue state of Iran or Russia if we engage in 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.040 what President Trump is said we're going to engage in. 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:21.600 So Rightchel right now, if you're a military commander or 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:24.360 a military lawyer and you've got the president saying all 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:28.000 of these things, what position are you left in. 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:32.200 You're left in the position that you have to obey 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:35.640 lawful orders, and you have a legal duty and absolute 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:39.760 legal duty to disobey patently manifestly unlawful orders. And if 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.760 President Trump truly gives an order that says take out 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:45.600 all the power plants and all the bridges, the military 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:51.040 has an obligation to disobey that order. The smart military 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:57.159 commander giving Trump's mercurial and rather deranged behavior, would be yes, sir, 0:06:57.240 --> 0:06:59.800 hey boss, We've got this terrific target set of a 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.520 one hundred bridges and power plants that we have determined 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:07.400 meet the high hurdle. They contribute to military action, they 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:10.760 offer a military advantage by destroying them. And it's definitely 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:12.840 not going to be all the bridges and power plants. 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.200 And in Iran, right, it can't just be oh to 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:17.920 weaken the morale of the civilian population because you're not 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.680 allowed to target the civilian population. It cannot just be 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.600 weakened the morale of the regime because where's the military 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:26.560 action there. There has to be a military nexus. So 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:30.760 by distilling his order right through the law of war, 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:34.080 the law of arm conflict, they can get to lawful 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:38.440 military objectives, and it's incumbent upon them to actually do so. 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:39.840 Otherwise they are. 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.120 Guilty of war crimes and there are no statute of 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.080 limitations for those. And I don't think President Trump can 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.440 part an absolute everybody within the Apartment defense sets that 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:49.680 would be involved in these. 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:54.080 Strikes coming up. 0:07:54.440 --> 0:08:05.760 Will Trump's listen to the Loyes Rachel If we could 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:09.400 take a step back for a moment, as a military lawyer, 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.080 do you think that this war was even legal in 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:13.880 the first place. 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:14.360 No. 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:18.760 Under the framework of international law that's called the USAID 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.360 bellum that governs the resort to the use of force 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:25.280 on the global stage by states encapsulated in the United 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:29.280 Nations Charter, the United States did not face an imminent 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:34.200 threat of armed attack by Iran that would trigger its 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.520 Article fifty one right on Article fifty one in the 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.400 United Nations Charter to engage in force and self defense, 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:44.160 and there was no United Nations Security Council resolution obviously 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.280 authorizing this. The best argument the United States could make 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:53.760 is that that it simply joined an ongoing international arm conflict, 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:58.560 an already ongoing war between Iran and Israel, and so 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:02.000 we joined an allied But I don't buy that argument. 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:05.719 There are no objective indications that there were ongoing hostilities, 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:07.080 so I do think this is. 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:08.040 A war of choice. 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:11.880 However, the law of war doesn't care who started the war, 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.600 who's the aggressor, and who's not, because its purpose is 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.480 to minimize humans suffering and war, starting with civilians for us, 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:22.560 but also starting with those service members that are fighting 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:23.400 for their countries. 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.400 Rachel, do you think that anyone in the Pentagon right 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:31.120 now is really sitting back and assessing the legality of 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:32.040 these strikes. 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:37.640 Yes, because we have military lawyers and I was one 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:41.720 for a long time whose job is to assess strike packages. 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:47.439 The Geneva Conventions require that commanders have legal advisors available 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:52.160 to them and opening on things like target packages. Despite 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:56.960 the fact that Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth fired the 0:09:57.000 --> 0:10:00.080 top military lawyers of the services. 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.760 Ultimately, I want the best possible lawyers in each service 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.280 to provide the best possible recommendations, no matter what, to 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:08.760 lawful orders that are given. 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.800 And we didn't think those particular positions. 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:13.360 Were well suited and so we're looking. 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:13.880 For the best. 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.320 He did that soon after taking office, thereby sending a 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.840 message saying that you know, I don't want obstacles in 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:21.160 my way. 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.240 I don't want any roadblocks. Well, guess what the law 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:24.040 is a roadblock? 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:26.960 Do you think that Trump will pay any attention to 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.880 what they come up with, legal or not legal? Oh, 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:32.720 He's more likely to just go ahead and do what 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:33.200 he wants. 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.240 Well. Trump has his psycho fans around them, including those 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:38.920 at the Department of Justice and the Office of Legal Counsel, 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.200 who already wrote a legal memo, a laughable legal memo 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:45.760 that's classified. Still hasn't been released, but parts of it 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.480 have been discussed in the open media, saying that it's 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:53.360 lawful to kill civilians, to kill alleged drug smugglers outside 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.080 of the time of war. But those military lawyers don't 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:58.920 have access to the president. Usually the military lawyers advising 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:02.079 their commanders. I'm the chairman of the Joint chiefs of Staff, 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.280 and I also don't have much faith in guess he 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:06.960 was put in that position because he President Trump thinks 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:10.199 he's pliing. He's also not in the direct chain of command. 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:12.560 He's not passing on orders. But I'm hoping that his 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.120 lawyers are telling him, sir, we've got to be very 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.840 very careful about this, and not simply because it's the law. 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:20.960 We don't follow the law because of law sake. We 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.400 follow the law because it keeps our service members moral 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.160 compasses on true north we tell them they're going to 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:29.040 do awful things in war. We're going to order you 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.760 to do awful things and war. But they're lawful and 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:34.520 they're moral because the law has already taken into account 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:38.840 this balance between going after military targets, military objectives and 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.320 minimizing the impact on civilians. 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:45.480 So, Rachel, if the deadline passes, the strait of Hall 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.280 moves isn't reopened, the strikes are carried out, and then 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:53.920 down the track later on it's investigated. What would that 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.640 mean for the people who gave the orders and also 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.360 the soldiers and commanders at the end of the day 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:00.760 who have to carry them out. 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:03.880 I mean, the president has immunity because of the US 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.880 Supreme Court's decision from a few years ago that gives 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.480 some pretty total immunity for official acts. President Trump will 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.640 probably pardon Secretary Hegstath and give a prospective pardon, but 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:18.840 for those military members who received manifestly unlawful orders. 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:20.520 Clearly unlawful orders. 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.960 Directing that every single power plant and every single bridge 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:26.480 in Iran be destroyed is a manifestly, patently unlawful order. 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.160 That means that that commander that does not disobey that 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:34.320 order is guilty of that war crime, of indiscriminate attack 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:38.880 or else. There's universal jurisdiction under the Geneva Conventions, meaning 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:42.760 a country like Germany could draft war crime charges against 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:44.480 any of these members in the future. There is no 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:48.640 statue to limitations, including criminal punishment if warranted by the facts, 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.480 so it's not just a country should do this or 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.439 actually obligated to bring war criminals to account. 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.360 What do you think all of this says about the 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:02.080 state of international lule and how countries regarded, how the 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.840 US regards it, and how healthy it is not only 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.160 in the US but around the world right now. 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:12.040 I think the international order that was set up after 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:16.240 World War Two, largely in part to prevent a World 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:22.959 War III, is in danger of severe weakening and erosion, 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:29.120 and not only the disregard for the using force to 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.040 try to get what you want. That's dangerous enough as 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:35.040 it is, But then the threats by a sitting of 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:39.199 the United States President to engage in total warfare. So 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:42.880 today I see a rejection of international law. If we 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:45.480 have a Secretary of Defense that says, you know, we're 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:47.520 not going to fight by stupid rules of engagement. 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:51.120 We fight worse to win, not to defend. We unleash 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:57.120 overwhelming and punishing violence on the enemy. We also don't 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:00.719 fight with stupid rules of engagement tie the hands of 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:05.360 our warfighters to intimidate, demoralize, hunt, and kill the enemies 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:06.040 of our country. 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:08.280 Really, are we targeting children? 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:08.480 Now? 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:09.920 Are we targeting civilians? 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.360 Do we not care about the fundamental premise of the 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:14.840 law of war that we're going to fight honorably and 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.400 only go after military objectives and military personnel for say, 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:20.640 none of that matters. Well, then we are no better 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.880 than Iran, We are no better than Russia. And the 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:28.200 United States is entering into and leading the entry into dark, 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:29.400 dark times. 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:31.360 And that's frightening. 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.160 Rachel, thanks so much for talking to us today. 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:39.760 Thank you so much for having me. 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:52.000 Also in the news, one of Australia's most decorated soldiers, 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:55.240 Ben Robert Smith, has been taken into custody over the 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:59.800 alleged motives of unarmed Afghan civilians. Robert Smith was arrested 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.760 Sydney Domestic Airport yesterday and is expected to be charged 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:07.320 with five counts of war crime murder following a joint 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:10.600 investigation by the Office of the Special Investigator and the 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:15.440 Australian Federal Police. It follows mister Robert Smith's failed defamation 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:19.280 case against nine newspapers, in which the Federal Court found, 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:22.240 on the balance of probabilities that he was involved in 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:26.480 the murder of four unarmed men. No criminal findings were 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.880 made and mister Robert Smith has always maintained his innocence. 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:33.840 And Donald Trump has again lashed out of Australia for 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:38.240 refusing to back US military action against Iran. The U 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.680 S President has accused several allies of benefiting from US 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:46.560 protection while failing to return the favor, naming Australia alongside 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.880 Japan and South Korea. When asked precisely what Australia had 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:54.800 failed to provide, the US Prime Minister Anthony Alberizi said 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.840 that wasn't a question for him to answer, but stated 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:00.440 he wants to see a de escalation in the co inflict. 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:05.680 I think it's very clear that any further escalation needs 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:11.160 to be outlined what the objective is. So we've called consistently. 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:15.440 We haven't changed our position of calling for de escalation. 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.800 I'm Nicole Johnston. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.