1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: Well then plan results around and South Australian students reading 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: skills are slipping behind the rest of the nation. According 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: to the latest results out now. It seems how kids 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: understanding of basic grammar is falling behind, particularly here in 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: essay using commas and capital letters correctly also below average. 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: And do yourself a favor if you're out in about today, 7 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: even if you're not buying the paper, if it's you know, 8 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: you're in a servo or somewhere a shop and there's 9 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: a newspaper there. The advertiser absolute gold headline this morning 10 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: is all I'd say, where they've completely deliberately mucked it 11 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: up in terms of grammatical errors in it. So just 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: a brilliant headline which I really got to chuckle out 13 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: off this morning. The Education Minister Blair boy you heard 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: him on five double a Breakfast earlier, saying the decline 15 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: in reading skills is something he is watching closely. Also 16 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: says difficult to tell why there has been a decline 17 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: in reading and basic grammar, particularly for year fives, but 18 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: overall we have fallen back behind the rest of the nation. 19 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: An essay rank no higher than third in the nation 20 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: in any category. He says it's puzzling. And this is 21 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 1: a little bit of what Blair Boyer had to say 22 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: on five double a breakthas. 23 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 2: My hope is that it is a blip and that 24 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 2: it will rite itself next year, but we can't take 25 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 2: that for granted. And a whole point of NAT plan 26 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: is to give us this kind of test about where 27 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 2: the system as a whole is at. So if we 28 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 2: see things like this, we go away and we do 29 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 2: more work about why that could be the case, things 30 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 2: that we can change and do better and actually put 31 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 2: them in place. 32 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: So we're to next with teaching kids better grammar. Doctor 33 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,279 Speaker 1: Kevin Donaldy, Senior Fellow, Australian Catholic University, Kevin, good. 34 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 3: Morning, Good morning Matthew. 35 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: Why do you think it is a blip? And here 36 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: in essay particularly. 37 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 3: Well the short answers No. I mean politicians will always 38 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 3: cover up with a good answer to try and cover 39 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 3: what's really been a scandal for over twenty thirty years. 40 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 3: I wrote a book over twenty years ago, why our 41 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 3: schools are Failing, And I looked at the research back 42 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 3: then and I'll just quote you. I'll quote you what 43 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 3: I wrote in literacy approximately twenty seven of year three students, 44 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 3: thirty percent of year five students were illiterate, and it's 45 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 3: the same for numerously. So we've had this problem for 46 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 3: over twenty thirty years and nothing has been done. 47 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: So is it moving away from the reading, writing, arithmetic 48 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: kind of upbringing we all had. Is that we've gone 49 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: down a phonics rugees, is that the problem? 50 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 3: Well, it's like we went down the rabbit hole, like 51 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 3: in allis in Wonderland when I went to school, I'm 52 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 3: older than probably a lot of your listeners. But when 53 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 3: I went to school during the fifties and sixties, teaching 54 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: was pretty traditional in England. We learned how to read 55 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 3: with what's called a phonic shonemic awareness approach. We did 56 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 3: times tables, we memorized dates, recited poetry. Teachers were authority figures. 57 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 3: They stood at the front of the room. There was 58 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 3: a good classroom discipline. If you've got it wrong, you've failed. 59 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 3: You've got four out of ten and you were told 60 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 3: how to get better. But during the seventies that all changed. 61 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 3: The nineteen seventies and eighties where we introduced a lot 62 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 3: of progressive New Age fads like look and guests when 63 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 3: you're reading they forgot times tables, mental arithmetic, teachers became 64 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 3: guides or facilitated. So there's a whole range of reasons 65 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 3: why we're going backwards. And when you look internationally, it's 66 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 3: even worse. So there's a lot that has to be done. 67 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: Getting back to the basics is obviously what you're saying, 68 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: that's what we've got to do. 69 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: That's part of it. And we need to look at 70 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 3: teacher training too. Many teachers begin, especially in primary school, 71 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 3: they've spent a lot of time on sustainability, on the environment, 72 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 3: on indigenous on all these kind of what I call 73 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 3: progressive issues. But many students go into graduate, go into 74 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 3: schools not knowing how to teach literacy, not knowing how 75 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 3: to teach mathematics properly. So we need to look at 76 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 3: teacher training. We need to look at classroom discipline. We 77 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 3: have among the most disruptive and noisy classrooms among the OECD. 78 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 3: And frankly parents need to do a lot more as well. 79 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: Interesting to read in one of the reports out today, 80 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: it's in the Australian in fact, and i'll read it out. 81 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,239 Speaker 1: This paragraph that says NAPLAN data reveals strong links between 82 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: children's academic success and parental education by the time they 83 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: finish primary school. Students with a university educated parent typically 84 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 1: reading at year nine level, but year nine students whose 85 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: parents failed to finish year twelve have the reading ability 86 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: of a primary school student year five on average. And 87 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: so your point about parents needing to do a lot more, 88 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: I suppose it depends, well, can they do a lot 89 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 1: more if they didn't finish school themselves they would have 90 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: been the first generation caught in that change from the 91 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: eighties onwards. 92 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a complex issue. I mean, there's an expression 93 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 3: when you talk about, you know, mathematics or you're trying 94 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 3: to work out something. Correlation is not causation. So just 95 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 3: because two things happen at the same time, it doesn't 96 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 3: mean they're related. So, for example, the fact that parents 97 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 3: who are highly educated their kids generally do better. There 98 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 3: are many reasons why that happens, and in fact there 99 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 3: are more. You know, when I go back to my 100 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 3: own schooling, I went to a working class school in 101 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 3: Melbourne Housing Commission. A lot of the kids they did 102 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 3: very well. You can have poor kids who do better, 103 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 3: and that's shown by a lot of Asian students, migrant 104 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 3: students who come out. A lot of them don't have 105 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 3: a lot of money, but their parents are committed to 106 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 3: an education. They teach their kids at home, They get 107 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 3: them to compete, they get them to expect to study hard. 108 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 3: So there are lots of other reasons why kids will 109 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 3: do well. It's not just your parents sort of how 110 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 3: well off they are. 111 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: What about numeracy. We've spoken a bit on literacy. Numeracy, 112 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: So what you said about memorizing times tables. That's the 113 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: heart of learning maths, isn't it. Back in year three 114 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: probably where you start memorizing my recollection. Anyway, year three, 115 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: certainly year four, you'd memorized your tables by then. But 116 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: I know with schooling these days, some kids get to 117 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,119 Speaker 1: high school and still haven't learned their times tables to twelve. 118 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, there are a couple of things there. One is 119 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 3: memorization times tables, and that was attacked or criticized during 120 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 3: the seventies and eighties for rope learnings or parroting. So 121 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 3: the argument was you don't need it, But all the 122 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 3: and I'll say, brain research or cognitive research shows that 123 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 3: you really do need to memorize so that it's automatic. 124 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 3: You know, we all know if you know older people 125 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 3: like me, we go shopping, we give someone a dollar 126 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 3: and they'll say, well, that's forty cents. So you give 127 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 3: them a dollar, you immediately know you should get sixty 128 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 3: cents in change. But a lot of young people don't 129 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 3: have that ability. They can't do mental arithmetic, and that's 130 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 3: part of the problem. The other problem, frankly, is there 131 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 3: aren't enough mathematics teachers in schools. A lot of teachers 132 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 3: made to teach mathematics have not studied it at the 133 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 3: universe city properly. So there's that issue as well. 134 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: Does it go back to UNI Some of this that 135 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,679 Speaker 1: unis just aren't preparing teachers enough well enough. 136 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 3: Teacher training has a lot to answer for. As I say, 137 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 3: you know my own example, I've met young, young students 138 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 3: who start teaching. They don't know enough about classroom discipline. 139 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 3: They don't know enough in primary school about how to 140 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 3: teach what they call, you know, teacher explicit teaching or 141 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 3: teacher directed so they really don't have the skills or 142 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 3: resources to cope properly. Now that's beginning to change. Some 143 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 3: universities are picking up on that, which is good, and 144 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 3: I know the Federal Education minister. He's actually arguing the 145 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 3: case that the states and territories should not get all 146 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 3: these billions of dollars unless they actually get their act together. 147 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 3: So there needs to be more pressure on education minutes 148 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 3: and schools of education to get it right. 149 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: You'd think, with all the billions poured into the Gonsky 150 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: reforms of a decade or so ago, that we might 151 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: be seeing the fruits of that, but it seems not. 152 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 3: Well I wrote at the time, all those years ago, 153 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 3: it was never going to work. I mean, part of 154 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 3: the reason is you've got to look at teacher training, 155 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 3: you've got to look at what's happening more broadly in society. 156 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 3: I mean, if you remember, Kevin Rudd when he was 157 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 3: Prime Minister, put millions and millions of dollars into computers 158 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 3: and he called it the toolbox of the future. But 159 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 3: all the research overseas shows that those countries that did 160 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 3: not invest in computers they've done better in the international testing. 161 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 3: You need teachers to teach. You can't rely on computers 162 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 3: and screens. Especially reading. You've got to read print. You've 163 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 3: got to learn to write long hand, you've got to 164 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 3: read read, you know print, and parents should be doing 165 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 3: that at home every day with it. They should be 166 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 3: getting them to read books and shut off the computer, 167 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 3: shut off the video games, shut off the screen, get 168 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 3: rid of the mobile phones. And you knows only the 169 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 3: last year or two that schools are actually banning mobile Yes, 170 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 3: they should have done that years ago. 171 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, just before I let you go in the 172 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: day and I finished year twelve in eighty one. But 173 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: I reckon every teacher I would have had, probably without exception, 174 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,719 Speaker 1: went through what was here in South Australia at least. 175 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: I don't know what the other states did, but we 176 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 1: had teachers College here in Essay, and every teacher went 177 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: through that. It wasn't part of well, it was I 178 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: guess a UNI thing, but it was certainly on a 179 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: UNI campus here in Essay. But teachers College was teachers college. 180 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't university as such. Has the ending of teachers 181 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: College has made that difference? Is that where the system 182 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: has fallen down, perhaps to some degree? 183 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 3: I think, yeah, I mean, I agree it started back then. 184 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 3: When I went to university many years ago. I did 185 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 3: an undergraduate degree three years and then I did a 186 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 3: one year diplamer of education. But a lot of my 187 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 3: friends actually went to colleges of education in Melbourne, Adelaide, 188 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 3: wherever it might be. A lot of them were primary teachers. 189 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:27,559 Speaker 3: Often they were taught by classroom teachers and so they 190 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 3: had a practical experience if you liked, they had practical 191 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 3: knowledge about how the best cope in the classroom. They 192 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 3: were all shut down actually earlier during the Whitlam government, 193 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 3: so all the colleges were moved on to universities where 194 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 3: they became faculties of education. A lot of the people 195 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 3: who teach in these faculties have never worked in a school, 196 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:56,719 Speaker 3: so it's become very theoretical, very you know, they think academic, 197 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 3: so there's lost that practical experience. It should be more 198 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 3: like an apprenticeship where you want to be a teacher, 199 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 3: you've got to spend a lot of what you're doing 200 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:12,359 Speaker 3: in schools as well as as well as learning at university. 201 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: Interesting Kevin has always appreciate the insight. Thank you my pleasure, 202 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: Doctor Kevin Donnelly, Senior Fellow at the Australian Catholic University