Speaker 1: Hi'm i Boris, and this is straight talk.
Speaker 2: Everyone that's going to vote for Harris is going to
Speaker 2: tell you, I reckon. Five out of one hundred that
Speaker 2: are voting for Trump won't tell you. And that's been
Speaker 2: believing in the past.
Speaker 1: Jail Hockeyrus made here, going, what do you think is
Speaker 1: in that effective? Trump wins?
Speaker 2: The amount of announcements he's made, if he were deliver
Speaker 2: them on tax cuts, tariffs and everything else would be diabolical.
Speaker 1: What about if she wins that?
Speaker 2: Because she's talking about price controls and everyone's going, how's
Speaker 2: that going to work? Harris has not defined herself, so
Speaker 2: she still remains a big policy mystery.
Speaker 1: And if I was asking now, Joe, what do you
Speaker 1: think will happen in the election next year? A straining Oh,
Speaker 1: that's obviously going to be close. Firstly, and do you
Speaker 1: see their current ambassador? Do you have much to do
Speaker 1: with kem I do?
Speaker 2: I do? I do? And you know Kevin.
Speaker 1: Joel Hockeyrus made here going, Okay, I've.
Speaker 2: Been a long time, have known each other long time.
Speaker 1: And actually I remember I was onlything about today. I
Speaker 1: remember meeting you, like when Michael y Abbsley was raising
Speaker 1: money for the Liberal Party. Yeah, that made me two
Speaker 1: thousand nineties.
Speaker 2: Early nineties totally.
Speaker 1: And Wabsley got me in a restaurant with a bow
Speaker 1: because it was a friend of mine the time, I'd
Speaker 1: haven't seen a long time and we'd agreed to put
Speaker 1: some moderate amount of money into your campaign, which is
Speaker 1: not much those days if it was a lot, but
Speaker 1: for it lost me at the time. But well, you
Speaker 1: can make up for it now, I know I can.
Speaker 1: Just to embarrass you, like because because I really need
Speaker 1: to do this to you, because Kerry would never forgive
Speaker 1: me Kerry Pack if I don't tell the audience about
Speaker 1: this story. And I'm the only part I'm going to
Speaker 1: talk about. The rest. I'm just gonna ask a questions.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask and it's going to all be about you.
Speaker 1: But this story is all about you. Just to give
Speaker 1: the audience a taste of the bloke they're sitting in
Speaker 1: front of me. Now, this is what I call a
Speaker 1: proper treasurer. That's my view, right, And you know he's
Speaker 1: a businessman today. He's a former Ambassador of the United
Speaker 1: States of America for Australia in the United States America
Speaker 1: for Australia and the former Treasurer. But I'm going to
Speaker 1: go right back to two thousand and I think it
Speaker 1: was two maybe two thousand and two. I had was
Speaker 1: a business partnership packer and it was the beginning. It
Speaker 1: was February two thousand and two, I think interest rates.
Speaker 1: Interest rates hadn't come off for a long time, and
Speaker 1: you were the Minister for Finance and Petercase was a
Speaker 1: Treasurer at the time, so you're much younger Blake, much
Speaker 1: young Blake. So I get a phone call. The first
Speaker 1: Reserve Bank meeting was about happened on the Tuesday February,
Speaker 1: first Tuesday of February, and everyone knew they're going to
Speaker 1: drop interest rates, and they did dropped inns rates. So
Speaker 1: I had a phone call from Minister Joe Hockey and
Speaker 1: he says to me, hey, mate, He said, treasure wants
Speaker 1: to know because in those days, the Treasurer and the
Speaker 1: Promise used to talk in Parliament all the time about
Speaker 1: the competition against the banks. And I was around, Asie
Speaker 1: was around, but Ozzie had been around for a bit
Speaker 1: longer than me, so he had a bigger profile. But
Speaker 1: Minister Hockey says to me on the telephone mark. We
Speaker 1: notice you're dropping in interest rates and I said, yes,
Speaker 1: we drop. We announced we're going to drop our instrates.
Speaker 1: And he said how much by and I said twenty
Speaker 1: five base points, which was just ahead of the Roserve Bank.
Speaker 1: And Minister Hockey said, and when we be passing that
Speaker 1: just rate reduction on? I said, well, funny should say that,
Speaker 1: I said, because we're thinking about passing it on much
Speaker 1: more quickly because in those days you passed an interest
Speaker 1: rate increase on straight away and this rate reduction six
Speaker 1: weeks later. Correct, So we hold the money for a bit,
Speaker 1: you know, we also make money. And he said when
Speaker 1: you think you're going to do that, because it was
Speaker 1: a big bonu contention with consumers that this rought was happening.
Speaker 1: I said, I don't know. We're thinking thirteen, twelve, thirty
Speaker 1: days that that's very interesting. I'll tell the treasure right,
Speaker 1: But I said, I got to check. So I've got
Speaker 1: to go check to Kerry Pack. I go to say Erry,
Speaker 1: like mister Hoggie's on the phone. He the threasur was
Speaker 1: going to talk about this in parliament. I said, I said,
Speaker 1: I will pass the rate reduction on twelve days and
Speaker 1: carry nearly had apoplexy, like he said, what are you
Speaker 1: doing that for? That's when we make our money and
Speaker 1: during the periods of change. I say, yeah, but you
Speaker 1: know the ministers is thinking it would be good for Australians.
Speaker 1: We need to change the landscape. It's unfair that we
Speaker 1: put it up straight away and put it down and said,
Speaker 1: I think we should do it. He said, okay, Sony said,
Speaker 1: I trust you, you do it. So I thought, good, So
Speaker 1: I ring mister hockey back. I'm gonna say, Joe twelve days.
Speaker 1: He said. It's interesting, Marke he said. He said, I
Speaker 1: was talking to west Pac and west Pack are thinking
Speaker 1: and doing it, doing it in nine days, and I went,
Speaker 1: oh fuck. He said, would you go eight? And I thought,
Speaker 1: oh my god. And I thought, I can't ring carry up.
Speaker 1: I cannot ring carry. If I ring carry, he'll kill me.
Speaker 1: And I thought, west Pac nine, can we go eight?
Speaker 1: Because I can't let Westpac own this now. Now I've
Speaker 1: always started, I've got to own it. I went eight
Speaker 1: days and I I've never known to this very day
Speaker 1: whether or not you were telling me the truth or not,
Speaker 1: because I have this. I had this straight after this
Speaker 1: sneaking suspicion that I'd just been jammed and set up
Speaker 1: so bad.
Speaker 2: But it did fantastic to be jammed between Kerry Packer
Speaker 2: and Johannah.
Speaker 1: Pretty hard, and I thought. But the good thing about
Speaker 1: it was, and we don't see this in politics today,
Speaker 1: the good thing about it is that treasurers and then
Speaker 1: you later became the treasure later on, but treasurers and
Speaker 1: ministers for finances, you were financial services I think it
Speaker 1: was called at the time, and this it was two
Speaker 1: thousand and one, actually not two thousand and two, took
Speaker 1: risks and were active in the marketplace like our marketplace,
Speaker 1: and put pressure on people. I've never heard a word
Speaker 1: from I did hear from Scott at one stage in Josh,
Speaker 1: but I've never heard a word from Jim. And you know,
Speaker 1: what do you think about this as a representative a
Speaker 1: big part of the marketplace.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I mean, the environment changes. But I you know,
Speaker 2: I grew up in a small business family and you
Speaker 2: know it was just what it was bred into me, and.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, prom puting pressure on me it all zero.
Speaker 2: I mean, I remember ringing Roger Corbett when he was
Speaker 2: putting up prices with the GST and and he was
Speaker 2: putting it up ahead of the introduction's GST and I
Speaker 2: said to him, I said, mister Corbett, if we need
Speaker 2: to have a body swing from a light pole in
Speaker 2: Martin Place and it's yours, then so be it. But
Speaker 2: you're not putting up prices until we get rid of
Speaker 2: all the other taxes.
Speaker 1: As you know, he was bullies, that's right, and he had.
Speaker 2: To get people into all the Woolies overnight change thirteen
Speaker 2: million tags. Had to remove it in a million price tags.
Speaker 2: Colonel Yeah, cost unfortunate, but you know that's the way
Speaker 2: it should be. It's it's not intimidation of it's about
Speaker 2: what's best with the Australian.
Speaker 1: So where has that changed, Joe. It's different today and
Speaker 1: there might be a whole lot good reasons for it,
Speaker 1: But where is that change in Australia. Why is it changed?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I just I've always been that sort
Speaker 2: of person. It's just, you know, maybe because I'm more
Speaker 2: familiar with business. I grew up engaging with business at
Speaker 2: a very young age. I was never really intimidated by business.
Speaker 2: I remember meetings with Kerry Packer when he wanted to
Speaker 2: buy the Sydney Morning Hero remember, oh my god. In fact,
Speaker 2: I was sharing that some of the stories.
Speaker 1: He doesn't hold back.
Speaker 2: No, well, it's funny, you know, I had caught up
Speaker 2: with Kerry Stokes and we're reflecting on all those days
Speaker 2: when all that media ownership law was changing, how the
Speaker 2: Carrs went to war with each other, and it was
Speaker 2: you know, it was a different environment. And see, I
Speaker 2: think now business is more removed from politics, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think that's right.
Speaker 2: And part of it is shareholders say, you know, don't
Speaker 2: engage with politicians, don't donate to politicians. So the danger
Speaker 2: is you become removed from the people that are generating
Speaker 2: the economy. And so I think bigger business is friendless,
Speaker 2: and partly it's the fault. Overwhelmingly it's a fall of
Speaker 2: big business because they stopped donating to the parties and therefore,
Speaker 2: you know, they're being called out for behavior and they've
Speaker 2: got no friends. They saw that with the banking reforms
Speaker 2: under Malcolm Turnbull. We see the way the mining companies
Speaker 2: are treated today, you know. And it's very hard in
Speaker 2: politics to go into bat for business if it's not
Speaker 2: in the best interests of small business and consumers.
Speaker 1: You were you I'm not sure, but did you have
Speaker 1: a small business under your portfolio?
Speaker 2: I had, I had small business, not on that one.
Speaker 2: I was small business and tourism after that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I do remember having small business under your point.
Speaker 2: I loved it. I mean, in fact, I've started a
Speaker 2: small business now and.
Speaker 1: It was actually not so small. But yes, yeah, but I.
Speaker 2: Mean I started, you know, filling out a bank application
Speaker 2: form in.
Speaker 1: The US, having up a bank well, and it's called
Speaker 1: Bondo partners it is, and you're you're effectively putting parties
Speaker 1: to parties, so you're.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the interaction between politics and business. And we've
Speaker 2: got a consultancy arm, we've got a capital arm, we've
Speaker 2: got an investment fund investing in companies in national security
Speaker 2: in Australia, in the US and UK with and we've
Speaker 2: we've got m and a advisory arm. We've got an
Speaker 2: advocacy arm, and we're in Australia, the US, UK and Japan.
Speaker 1: We're just to say it looks very much in some respects,
Speaker 1: it looks very much like a very early stage mccuari
Speaker 1: bank without being a bank in that McCrory group, I mean,
Speaker 1: not the bank part of the McCrory group part of it.
Speaker 1: You've got funds, you've got investments, you've got advisor, a
Speaker 1: lot of advisory stuff. But you're sort of making markets
Speaker 1: between people and regions.
Speaker 2: Well, it's hard going to another country and it's really expensive,
Speaker 2: particularly for SMS going to the United States. I mean
Speaker 2: people think, for example, going to the United States is
Speaker 2: just like going to Queensland. Well it's not. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's it's very different. And so same with the UK.
Speaker 2: They don't really understand. UK has always looked at the
Speaker 2: EU rather than at the US, and and Americans coming
Speaker 2: here have a little bit of a tinge of arrogance.
Speaker 2: They know how to deal with it, just like going
Speaker 2: to California. I mean, as I say to Americans, I say,
Speaker 2: what are Australians like, I say, well, we're just like Californians,
Speaker 2: except we like America. That's difference. Oh yeah, okay, we
Speaker 2: get it now.
Speaker 1: And how much of that? How much of that, Joe,
Speaker 1: do you get a leg up from being the ambassador
Speaker 1: because ambassadorship which you took on fifteen sixteen seventy Yeah,
Speaker 1: how much how much do you get out of that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? For sure. But I mean it's look if I
Speaker 2: was still a lawyer as I was way back, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe i'd be.
Speaker 1: A partner at course, and yeah.
Speaker 2: And you know it would have been accounting for every
Speaker 2: six minutes of my life.
Speaker 1: And you'd be charging me. Well, actually, I used Mallicon's
Speaker 1: recently and they charged me fifteen hundred bucks an hour.
Speaker 2: Well that's okay, that's good for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, he's actually quite inexpensive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, certainly not that, but it's you know, I
Speaker 2: just always felt the need to try and do something better.
Speaker 2: I felt the need to give and look, I just
Speaker 2: enjoyed the US and after I finished his ambassador, I'm going, well,
Speaker 2: what do I do now? You know, I've had twenty
Speaker 2: four years of public life. I don't want to be
Speaker 2: a lobbyist or anything like that. I wanted to do
Speaker 2: something more substantive, and we ended up doing you know,
Speaker 2: fantastic transactions in Australia's interests. Like you know, the biggest
Speaker 2: telco in the Pacific was thinking of being selling itself
Speaker 2: to the Chinese, and you know, I stepped in and
Speaker 2: worked with the Australian government and the American government and
Speaker 2: made sure or Telstra now owns it right, So things
Speaker 2: like that were then in national security, we're investing in
Speaker 2: the sort of companies that are going to keep our
Speaker 2: kids safe. So that's that's my you know, there's got
Speaker 2: to be that element to it to get me really
Speaker 2: fired up. And yes, of course, all the knowledge I've
Speaker 2: gained as ambassador or as treasurer or or any of them,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to deny that. That'd be ridiculous and
Speaker 2: what I am.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but there's no point in not leveraging what you've done.
Speaker 2: What I see God, I mean, it's you know, if
Speaker 2: you've been the world's best plumber, you're going to leverage that.
Speaker 2: And this is you know, people often say to me,
Speaker 2: what's so and so like, Well Trump, what's Trump like? Well?
Speaker 2: Trump is taking his experience as a New York property
Speaker 2: developer and he's taking it to the White House. He's transactional,
Speaker 2: he does deals. You know, he's polite to people, even
Speaker 2: the people that he competes against. But you know, he's
Speaker 2: a hard, transactional person. And it's no different with Harris,
Speaker 2: who's a prosecutor, and Kamala Harris has been a prosecutor
Speaker 2: and a lawyer, and we all have you know, Barack
Speaker 2: Obama comes across as a university lecturer, and that's what
Speaker 2: he was. You know, he's a very good university.
Speaker 1: Can we talk about Trump? I'm sure you're sick of it,
Speaker 1: but like you're here, so I got Orden wants to
Speaker 1: talk about Trump. They want to hear about someone who
Speaker 1: knows the guy for a start, and any of your
Speaker 1: abassador role, you get to meet Trump because he was
Speaker 1: a president during that period.
Speaker 2: We no, most ambassadors wouldn't have many. I mean you
Speaker 2: meet the president when you become ambassador, you go and
Speaker 2: present your credential, so you have a five minute meeting
Speaker 2: with a president that time was Barack Obama. I met
Speaker 2: Trump because he was running for office and my view
Speaker 2: was he could win, and no one else had that view,
Speaker 2: and so I was lonely out there saying I want
Speaker 2: to engage with the Trump campaign when no one else
Speaker 2: would and he was considered, you know, an idiot, and
Speaker 2: everyone said Clinton's going to win. And that's when the relationships.
Speaker 1: What do you think he was going to win? What
Speaker 1: was it you saw in him?
Speaker 2: Ah? You know, Mark, I like in our politics here
Speaker 2: we talk about Betty Bankstown and we try and identify
Speaker 2: the swing voter, the margall see voter, and who really mattered,
Speaker 2: how we going to win her over? And I took
Speaker 2: that political experience in Australia and campaigns and said, what
Speaker 2: who's the swing voter in America? And we came up
Speaker 2: with Mary Milwaukee, Wisconsin, right. And I just when I
Speaker 2: started to define in my own head and to the
Speaker 2: embassy Mary Milwaukee, they started to understand that there was
Speaker 2: something more than Clinton, something more than what was being offered.
Speaker 2: It was much more complicated. So Mary Milwaukee, and you know,
Speaker 2: this is sort of typical in one says forty five
Speaker 2: years of age, earning fifteen dollars an hour for the
Speaker 2: last ten years will mart In the checkout. You know,
Speaker 2: she has two kids, a boy that's probably done one
Speaker 2: or two two is the duty of Afghanistan, probably has PTSD.
Speaker 2: She has a young daughter. She hopes one day we'ld
Speaker 2: go to college, but she can't afford it. Her husband
Speaker 2: is one of one and a half million truck drivers
Speaker 2: in America that hasn't got a college degree. And she
Speaker 2: goes to church Wednesdays and Sundays, which is typical in
Speaker 2: the Midwest. You know, she pays the bills, She holds
Speaker 2: the family together. She worries about security, the threat of
Speaker 2: Fender all and every night on TV, the Colberts and
Speaker 2: the Jimmy Kimmel's another laugh at her for going to church,
Speaker 2: for having traditional values, believing the marriage is between a
Speaker 2: man and a woman. But you know, and they laugh
Speaker 2: at her because she's yesterday, because they see her as yesterday,
Speaker 2: and they're really about, you know, more a different type
Speaker 2: of Miera. And you know, Mary's there and she's going
Speaker 2: hang on. Along comes Donald Trump and he's a very
Speaker 2: successful person. But he's rude. I don't like that rudeness.
Speaker 2: But you know what, he not only listens to me,
Speaker 2: he's fighting for me. He says, you know, Mary, you
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with going to church, or there's nothing
Speaker 2: wrong with, you know, having a history of guns hand
Speaker 2: through the generation. There's nothing wrong with, you know, having
Speaker 2: an F one fifty pickup truck. There's nothing wrong with
Speaker 2: not going to university. What's wrong with that? In fact,
Speaker 2: I'm going to fight for you, Mary. And she said,
Speaker 2: for the first time someone's come along and fall for me.
Speaker 2: And you know what, Mary, More white women voted for
Speaker 2: Donald Trump than Hillary Clinton in twenty sixteen, and more
Speaker 2: white women voted for Donald Trump than Joe Biden in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty because he's suddenly saying I hear you and
Speaker 2: I'm fighting for you.
Speaker 1: Was that just a clever strategy from his point of view?
Speaker 1: Is it for real? Like, is he actually want to
Speaker 1: fy for those people? Did he see them as someone's
Speaker 1: going to give them back?
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, I think he's authentic. And you know, authenticity
Speaker 2: is the most valuable commodity in the twenty first century,
Speaker 2: whether it be in business or in politics or anything else.
Speaker 2: If you're authentic, you can't be fake, you can't lie.
Speaker 2: People see right through you. And so you know Trump,
Speaker 2: of course he lies about facts and figures and sort
Speaker 2: of stuff. But when he says, you know, I want
Speaker 2: to get out of the war in Afghanistan, you know
Speaker 2: he really wanted to get out of the war. When
Speaker 2: he said I wanted to build the wall, he really
Speaker 2: wanted to build the wall. And you know, whether you
Speaker 2: agree with him or not, he actually delivered on his authenticity.
Speaker 2: You know, when he's not author I mean when he
Speaker 2: gets up a rallies and says, look, my people say,
Speaker 2: I've got to try and win back the female voters.
Speaker 2: He's right, it's so transparent. He's got the speaking points,
Speaker 2: and he goes, yeah, here are the speaking points by
Speaker 2: people give him. What do you think of that? That's
Speaker 2: why ten, fifteen, twenty thirty thousand people bowl up to
Speaker 2: his rallies all over America and one day he could
Speaker 2: speak to eighty ninety thousand people, you know, just by
Speaker 2: going rally to rally, and they keep coming out and
Speaker 2: they keep hearing the same speech. Amazing.
Speaker 1: I once heard someone say that I think it was
Speaker 1: I think it was Franklin. They said, might have been
Speaker 1: I might know Roosevelt. I'm sure so Franklin did rese
Speaker 1: it was the first president that got there through radio.
Speaker 1: JFK was the first president. Was the TV president because
Speaker 1: he looked a certain way and acted a certain way.
Speaker 1: And Trump was the first social media president because you know,
Speaker 1: he's good at working social media. And I'm talking about
Speaker 1: the time it would have been Twitter and those other things. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: sure she was working with And I was thinking to myself,
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris right now seems to be the best to
Speaker 1: TikTok like as a new version of social media, like
Speaker 1: Trump doesn't sort of resonate with that audience. She seems
Speaker 1: to be really good at that and everywhere I see
Speaker 1: and I don't even know what she stands for. I
Speaker 1: actually can't pinpoint of policy this stage. I haven't actually
Speaker 1: heard to talk about it much policy, but she's bloody
Speaker 1: good in front of the audience. In relation to that
Speaker 1: particular form of social media, which everybody under thirty looks at.
Speaker 2: Well, she has successfully married an issue that's emotional and
Speaker 2: important like abortion and the demographic that she really needs
Speaker 2: to get out to vote, being women under the age
Speaker 2: of forty, right, And she's used TikTok and Instagram and
Speaker 2: everything else to get to basically prepare that demographic for
Speaker 2: the battle of the election and to come out and
Speaker 2: vote for her and volunteer for her, and then the
Speaker 2: endorsement of Taylor Swift and others coming behind it.
Speaker 1: So do you think she's had to pick a fo
Speaker 1: or pick an issue, because I've been hearing people say
Speaker 1: it's about Albanezi lately. You've got to pick a five, You.
Speaker 2: Got to define yourself. The thing is Harris has not
Speaker 2: defined herself. So you know, bear this in mind. The
Speaker 2: last election that we didn't have a Biden, a Bush
Speaker 2: or a. Clinton was nineteen seventy six, nearly fifty years ago,
Speaker 2: and there's been one of those three names in every
Speaker 2: presidential ballot since that time. So name recognition and that
Speaker 2: doesn't even include Obama. So name recognition is hugely important,
Speaker 2: especially when you have voluntary voting. So along comes Harris
Speaker 2: Walls and it's really I'm gone a few weeks to
Speaker 2: define itself. She's the first candidate since I think nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty eight or something who hasn't gone through a primary.
Speaker 2: So the American primary system basically introduces them to the
Speaker 2: American people, and particularly the Democrats or the Republicans, and
Speaker 2: millions of people go out and they spend multi millions,
Speaker 2: hundreds of millions of dollars on their campaigns. Harris hasn't
Speaker 2: gone through that for this election.
Speaker 1: She went through it.
Speaker 2: Biden went through it, that's right, and Harris hasn't. So
Speaker 2: she's an unknown to more people than you think. Now,
Speaker 2: the question in my mind is is she going how
Speaker 2: does she differentiate herself from Biden? We know how she
Speaker 2: differentiates herself from Trump. I mean, she's obviously looking different
Speaker 2: than Trump, but how does she differentiate herself from Biden?
Speaker 2: And that's a very tricky issue. So she's not she's
Speaker 2: not making major policy announcements. She's done fewer press conferences
Speaker 2: than any other candidate ever for president of the United
Speaker 2: States since you had your media, and you know, everyone
Speaker 2: else has defined her, defined her as the candidate she's done.
Speaker 2: Rather than Kamala Harris defining herself. Everyone else has defined her.
Speaker 2: Clinton's defined her. You know, Biden's to find Obamas to
Speaker 2: find her. That's massive fire power. Oprah's to find her,
Speaker 2: Taylor Swifts to find her, everyone else has to find her.
Speaker 2: Whereas you know, really she still remains a bit of
Speaker 2: a big policy mystery.
Speaker 1: Do you think that's part Do you think that's the
Speaker 1: thought out strategy?
Speaker 2: Oh totally yeah, yeah. And you know, so they basically
Speaker 2: bunkered down Biden in the twenty twenty election because of
Speaker 2: COVID and that sort of worked and minimum press conferences,
Speaker 2: whereas Trump is all out there, you know, everywhere, spews
Speaker 2: it out like he's accessible, you know, even seeing their
Speaker 2: journalists tell me that, you know, he'll ring them at
Speaker 2: odd hours and CNN is like the mortal enemy h Trump,
Speaker 2: but he still rings those journals at odd hours to
Speaker 2: say you ought to know this or you ought to
Speaker 2: know that are well done. And he's very very open
Speaker 2: and engaged. It's kind of interesting. He's privately he is
Speaker 2: a curious mind.
Speaker 1: I'm curious or curious himself.
Speaker 2: No, curious. He asks a lot of questions, right, he says,
Speaker 2: you know, and they could be Oh gosh, the conversations
Speaker 2: I've had, they've drifted from the Koala is going to
Speaker 2: survive the bushfires through to you know, you know, is
Speaker 2: Malcolm Turnbull really that rich? I mean yeah, like it's
Speaker 2: really it's bizarre, so random, it's random, and they'll come out,
Speaker 2: you jump from topic to topic and then he'll get
Speaker 2: onto golf and you know or something like that. It's like, really,
Speaker 2: he's got a very curious mind, and he listens carefully
Speaker 2: and if he finds a bit of information, he likes
Speaker 2: to grab onto it.
Speaker 1: What's a take to be a US president? Do you think?
Speaker 1: I mean? Looking as an observer, I mean, because I'll
Speaker 1: be honest, it doesn't seem like either one of them
Speaker 1: are great candidates to me? Like sure, Like do I
Speaker 1: would I if I was America, would I want either
Speaker 1: one of them running my country? I'm not sure sure?
Speaker 1: But what do you think it takes to be a
Speaker 1: great president of the United States, And Mike could say
Speaker 1: what I think, it takes me a great promister as
Speaker 1: straight from what I've observed, but I don't know about
Speaker 1: the United States. Look, it's the same thing. It's conviction, conviction, conviction.
Speaker 2: You have to believe that you know you call it
Speaker 2: and you call it right, and there'll be times when
Speaker 2: you don't. And the hard part is knowing when you've
Speaker 2: made a wrong call and you've got to change direction.
Speaker 1: But a lot of the calls these days are critical calls. Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Gaza.
Speaker 1: I mean, they're a bit China.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the hardest job in the world president of
Speaker 2: the United States. You know. One of the things that
Speaker 2: struck me Mark when I was ambassador was how the
Speaker 2: whole world expects America to fix their problems. Yeah, deep
Speaker 2: dark Africa, someone's got a problem South America. There's a
Speaker 2: battle between Brazil and Columbia, or Brazil and Peru, or
Speaker 2: Chile or whatever. The US has got to fix it.
Speaker 2: In the Caribbean, in Canada up in the northern border,
Speaker 2: or in Europe, you know, two countries a fight, or
Speaker 2: in the Pacific, you know, everyone expects America to solve
Speaker 2: their problems. And by the way, the US president has
Speaker 2: to be a president for the United States as well,
Speaker 2: has to worry about healthcare, education, domestic violence, you know,
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. Immigration. I think it's just an
Speaker 2: impossible job. I think it's an impossible job. And what
Speaker 2: you have to do is set a tone and then
Speaker 2: have conviction behind it. So the great conviction presidents like
Speaker 2: Teddy Roosevelt or Franklin Delano Roosevelt or you know, I'd
Speaker 2: put in there, you know LBJ, you know conviction, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'd put him in there. I think he's one of
Speaker 2: the great US presidents, you know, for what his conviction
Speaker 2: on breaking down the racial barriers in the US was phenomenal,
Speaker 2: really was phenomenal. And then Ronald Reagan, of course, you know,
Speaker 2: he's conviction, sense of purpose. He's you've got to clearly
Speaker 2: know what's right and wrong, and he did that with
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union when it was pretty tense. And so
Speaker 2: conviction politicians are the people I most admire and I
Speaker 2: find other best to work. John Howard was a conviction totally,
Speaker 2: and Bob Hawk was a conviction. He knew where he
Speaker 2: wanted to go. I think the Australia has been best
Speaker 2: served by conviction leaders.
Speaker 1: I was only saying the other day. Irrespective Hawk or Howard's,
Speaker 1: they're different in politics in terms of which one's blue
Speaker 1: ones red. But they were two of our best.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. I mean, you know, I was privileged
Speaker 2: to be in John Howard's cabinet. He promoted me very early,
Speaker 2: at a very young age. And you know, I wasn't
Speaker 2: of the more conservative persuasion of the Live Party, so
Speaker 2: he saw me a little like a black sheep, I think,
Speaker 2: but he was. He was magnanimous and he always listened.
Speaker 2: He was very good in listening to the Australia, as
Speaker 2: was Hawky. Hawky was made of mine, a golf buddy,
Speaker 2: and I'm not convinced, but I'm close to being convinced.
Speaker 2: He actually might have voted for me on one or
Speaker 2: two occasions.
Speaker 1: Really well, there.
Speaker 2: Were some labor leaders he really didn't like, but I
Speaker 2: don't know, but he he you know, they're just really wise.
Speaker 2: They're good listeners. I find the best leaders in business
Speaker 2: or in politics, any discipline are good listeners.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very interesting, you should say, because I was
Speaker 1: only talking I was only sort of complaining or moaning,
Speaker 1: whatever the world is the lack of policy of our
Speaker 1: current government. And I think it's I'm not having a
Speaker 1: crack at them here. I think it's because of the
Speaker 1: way politics, boys, Stone, who who is voting for you?
Speaker 1: Who you are representing? And they represent The Labor Party
Speaker 1: today in federal politics represents such a broad array of
Speaker 1: different people that's so broad it's a massive church for them,
Speaker 1: whereas the Liberals more just conservatives, a little bit broad
Speaker 1: than they were in the past, but no anear like labor.
Speaker 1: And it must be virtually impossible for the Labor to
Speaker 1: be able to say this for everybody. Therefore, don't make
Speaker 1: it any well.
Speaker 2: And that's why the primary voter is thirty one percent.
Speaker 2: I mean Labor. You know, mate, I'm going to tell
Speaker 2: you when we're in politics. When I was in politics
Speaker 2: not that long ago, we formed the view that we
Speaker 2: had to have a primary voter forty four to win government.
Speaker 2: Labor needed a primary voter forty one forty two. Labor's
Speaker 2: currently polling thirty one. Yeah, now you know you're having
Speaker 2: your meal eaten away by all these the Greens, the Teals,
Speaker 2: where the Liberal Party had it with the Teals. But
Speaker 2: still we're getting close to forty Still got a way
Speaker 2: to go to get up to forty four. But you see,
Speaker 2: it's just you know, social media has changed it. You
Speaker 2: know what social media has done is it's made the
Speaker 2: voice of the critic much louder than the voice of
Speaker 2: the advocate. Yeah, and you know I sort of thump
Speaker 2: the table when I read in a paper or something
Speaker 2: or online someone say, oh, well, we need the government
Speaker 2: to lay down this reform. Actually, you know, if you
Speaker 2: come out and you have the biggest tax policy change,
Speaker 2: you can say today, it'll be yesterday's news. By tomorrow,
Speaker 2: everyone overnight would be smashing it on social media and
Speaker 2: you just go, okay. So my view today is the
Speaker 2: best government is the one that interferes the least in
Speaker 2: your life.
Speaker 1: May a regulatory center.
Speaker 2: Your regulatory sense and taxation sense on. You know that, Like,
Speaker 2: don't get the government to solve your problem, you get
Speaker 2: the opportunity to solve your problem and get the government
Speaker 2: out of the way. I mean, you know, look, we're
Speaker 2: talking about housing this.
Speaker 1: I was going to say housing.
Speaker 2: Housing is a great example. Mate. I don't know if
Speaker 2: you've done a renovation.
Speaker 1: Lately I've done I did when I a budget both
Speaker 1: four times.
Speaker 2: Mate, I'm railing gainst this. I want to put up
Speaker 2: a car port, single car port in my backyard. It
Speaker 2: costs four thousand dollars and I've been told I have
Speaker 2: to go to council. It's going to cost me seven
Speaker 2: thousand dollars to go to council just.
Speaker 1: For the council.
Speaker 2: For the council, I have to put in a DA
Speaker 2: for it, right because it's a heritage Erry, I'm going,
Speaker 2: I'm just putting up a temporary car pot And you're going,
Speaker 2: why do I bother? Right? Like, so you're not going
Speaker 2: to get more construction of housing if you're spending a
Speaker 2: vast amount of money on red tape and green tape.
Speaker 2: And I know where this comes from. Everyone's trying to
Speaker 2: mitigate risk. Well, we've got to be prepared to take risk.
Speaker 1: We're the consumer.
Speaker 2: You have to have some risk.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but how can we say to the government department
Speaker 1: you don't need to take the risk, will take it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well that's the point. It comes back to personal
Speaker 2: responsibility and the fact that you do take a risk.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying you don't have das of course, you do,
Speaker 2: and you've got to have communities and so on. But
Speaker 2: there's just it's just ridiculous the amount of paperwork, and
Speaker 2: then you know it adds to the cost of everything.
Speaker 2: And plumbers and electricians we haven't got enough of them.
Speaker 2: They're getting tired. They're fantastic the trade is, you know,
Speaker 2: and the quality of the work they do is often
Speaker 2: very good in Australia, but they're tired. I mean they're
Speaker 2: hitting sixty and you're crawling under a house to do
Speaker 2: the plumbing or the electricals right, and you can't get
Speaker 2: people to do it. So I think that's just, you know,
Speaker 2: somehow we've got to let the market have a solution
Speaker 2: to some of these issues, and you know that means
Speaker 2: freeing up land, having you know, potential for more high
Speaker 2: rise et cetera, et cetera. But you know it's highly contentious.
Speaker 1: You during your treasurer period did have something to say
Speaker 1: about need of gearing. You did have something to say
Speaker 1: about negative gearing during your of course, and I have to,
Speaker 1: and I will be honest, I did do an article
Speaker 1: with the AFI some years before that and I said,
Speaker 1: I actually said negative gearing is actually not good policy.
Speaker 1: But there's not good economic policy. Right, But I said
Speaker 1: to be silly to get rid of it, because it's
Speaker 1: too indentured into our system today.
Speaker 2: So here's a solution, negative gearing, gratuitous advice forty thousand
Speaker 2: feet or thirty thousand dollars and washed it right. Negative
Speaker 2: gearing is a tool used to encourage investment in income
Speaker 2: producing assets. Right and treasurers are both persuasions. The liberal
Speaker 2: have skewed the taxation system towards favoring investment in equities
Speaker 2: over investment in real estate. Why because, as an economist
Speaker 2: will tell you, a dollar that goes into an old home,
Speaker 2: right is a dollar that has sort of lost forever
Speaker 2: until you sell the home. Whereas you put a dollar
Speaker 2: into BHP, they'll take that dollar, they'll buy new equipment,
Speaker 2: build a new mine, and they'll give you a return.
Speaker 2: So the question is how do we get real estate
Speaker 2: to become productive? Now? Of course, the productive real estate
Speaker 2: is when you're building new homes that's employing people. That
Speaker 2: money is at work until it's done, and then it's
Speaker 2: not at work. Right. So that's why on real estate
Speaker 2: we still have land tax, we still have stamp duty,
Speaker 2: and on shares you've got franking credits, you've got no
Speaker 2: stamp duty, you've got no land tax. So it's the
Speaker 2: taxation system is skewed. Still, negative gearing, the same economic
Speaker 2: tool applied to real estate applied to shares, but the
Speaker 2: shares are far more attractive than the real estate. Right.
Speaker 2: So because real estate, if you take away negative gearing
Speaker 2: on investment, real estate rents are going to go up.
Speaker 2: It's as simple as that, right. And in other countries
Speaker 2: they have rent control, rent subsidies. Well, we can't do that,
Speaker 2: that's ridiculous. The market is at play. But if you
Speaker 2: really want to get more housing, double double or perhaps
Speaker 2: increase by fifty percent, the negative gearing entitlement on new
Speaker 2: real estate. So there's an incentive to go and buy
Speaker 2: new real.
Speaker 1: Estate money into the system.
Speaker 2: Exactly the jobs going, It gets the housing construction going.
Speaker 2: And plus you know it helps to subsidize the new
Speaker 2: housing for people that really need it.
Speaker 1: And what about the couple of gains tax on the
Speaker 1: other end, because.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't change the capital gain tax range.
Speaker 1: The discount as it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's not even a discount. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: competitive with other countries. And you know, in the United States,
Speaker 2: for example, they have increased tax so high that everyone
Speaker 2: keeps rolling their money intill the capital gains tax opportunity arrives.
Speaker 2: It's a bit the same in your own business in Australia,
Speaker 2: you'll keep rolling the money in because if you take
Speaker 2: it as as income you pay fifty percent. If you
Speaker 2: sell your business, you only paid twenty five percent of them.
Speaker 1: Which is true, but that way so so do you.
Speaker 1: But do you think that this government? I mean, I've
Speaker 1: noticed that Paul Keating has been getting stuck into his
Speaker 1: own party and Bill Kelty more recently is even way
Speaker 1: he goes, yes, let's do it. But that's unusual for labor.
Speaker 1: It's they're usually pretty staunch like. Keating has had at
Speaker 1: a lot of cracks and a lot of things that
Speaker 1: have been going. I've actually tried to get him on
Speaker 1: the show, but particularly in relation to our relationship with
Speaker 1: China and also in relation to Aucust, he's been quite.
Speaker 2: His old garland that he is wrong.
Speaker 1: What do you think about that? And what do you
Speaker 1: think about his commentary?
Speaker 2: Oh look, I think Paul Ketting was a pioneer and
Speaker 2: number of areas, but he's just.
Speaker 1: Dead wrong economically one hundred percent the super supernovation guarantee,
Speaker 1: good thumbs up, you know, the you know, like the deregulation.
Speaker 1: He's just a great flooding.
Speaker 2: All those things. Yeah, is dead wrong, dead wrong and
Speaker 2: the wrong motivations. I mean, China is you know, first
Speaker 2: and foremost about Beijing's We don't share values with China.
Speaker 2: I mean, I've got many Chinese friends. I had a
Speaker 2: great relationship with the Chinese government over many years. But
Speaker 2: I understand this. You know, their first priority in China
Speaker 2: is the welfare of the Communist Party. They're not our
Speaker 2: friend when it comes to values. You know, the UK
Speaker 2: and the US are our friend. There are allies. They've
Speaker 2: shared blood for us, We've shared blood for them. That's
Speaker 2: where it goes. And then the only country in the
Speaker 2: world that is successfully marrying capital with innovation on a
Speaker 2: grand scale as a US. So from an economic perspective,
Speaker 2: the US is as much opportunity as China, if not
Speaker 2: more as is you know with the emergency of India
Speaker 2: and all the others. But the BTTOM line is the
Speaker 2: US is our closest friend. Our integration in their security
Speaker 2: system and their integration NOWS means that you know, of
Speaker 2: the last thirteen attempted terrorist tax in Australia, probably eight
Speaker 2: or nine would have been thwarted with the help of
Speaker 2: US intelligence agencies, you know, and may share a lot
Speaker 2: of intelligence. They've got sixteen intelligence agencies, and I would
Speaker 2: say we're embedded in most of them. And then when
Speaker 2: it comes to the military, at various times we've had
Speaker 2: military personnel and up to thirty two US states and
Speaker 2: people don't know about it. And then they're embedded with US.
Speaker 2: And I tell you what, I'd rather have them with
Speaker 2: US than any other country in the world.
Speaker 1: It's funny. I interviewed Trump and when was that. I
Speaker 1: interviewed him in twenty sixteen. He gave me a half
Speaker 1: hour half our interview and he railed against China. And
Speaker 1: I got quite nervous because sixteen was a period when
Speaker 1: you were around and China was our biggest trading partner.
Speaker 1: It was big emerging as the biggest trading part They
Speaker 1: might have just got a head for sure, and I
Speaker 1: was sort of trying to think, well, this is not
Speaker 1: going to let this is not going so good. You look,
Speaker 1: I'm gona get a bit nervous. But he didn't hold back,
Speaker 1: and he said sort of the same type of thing
Speaker 1: as you, not suggesting it the same. But he talked
Speaker 1: about values, the Chinese values relative to our values, relative
Speaker 1: to the American values, and fair.
Speaker 2: Enough, that's what they are. But I mean, if you
Speaker 2: look at look, just look at the history, right, and
Speaker 2: it's really important. You know, China, China, Russia, and the
Speaker 2: US all were born out of revolutionary wars. All three
Speaker 2: countries really had big revolutionary wars, and then they followed
Speaker 2: up with big civil wars. And what happens in the
Speaker 2: civil war is no one trusts their neighbor anymore. It's
Speaker 2: something you you can go years and years and generations,
Speaker 2: but at the end of the day, you don't really
Speaker 2: trust the person next door or the person on the
Speaker 2: other side of the country. So in China and Russia,
Speaker 2: head office Moscow and Beijing rule with an iron fist.
Speaker 2: That's how they keep control and so on. In the US,
Speaker 2: they fear Washington running with the ruling with an iron fists.
Speaker 2: So that's the constitution. That's why Americans proudly are still
Speaker 2: state based. They rail against Washington. That's why Trump has
Speaker 2: that right, has that capacity. He's railing against Washington. He's
Speaker 2: not of the establishment and Americans feel that sense of comfort.
Speaker 2: Australia is a bit the same. They rail against Canberra.
Speaker 2: We're sort of more agreeable to Canberra, but we're sort
Speaker 2: of railey. We don't want it to use our power
Speaker 2: to camera. And that's why states rights are still very
Speaker 2: powerful here and on. On China, Trump is very consistent.
Speaker 2: He has been very consistent. Of course, he says I'll
Speaker 2: deal with the President and do a deal and a
Speaker 2: great deal. But the bottom line is, you know, they're
Speaker 2: different values and that's.
Speaker 1: Really important, and it's okay to accept that, by the way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, correct, Yeah, the Chinese to understand that. That's why
Speaker 2: they still buy our iron ore and our coal and
Speaker 2: everything else. They and you know, that's why they want
Speaker 2: to They want to get on with this. They're pragmatic.
Speaker 2: And by the way, they've got a lot of domestic
Speaker 2: problems in China as well. So I don't think that it's.
Speaker 1: All particularly economically economic.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, when I was Treasurer, you know that
Speaker 2: I had a great relationship with Loji waih, the Finance
Speaker 2: Minister of China, and he rang me out one name
Speaker 2: and said, look, you Joe, I've got to put a
Speaker 2: tariff on your coal and I said, but we're about
Speaker 2: to sign a trade agreement where you abolish the tariffs.
Speaker 2: He said, I've got a few domestic issues. It's only
Speaker 2: going to be for six months. I said, okay, in
Speaker 2: todays what what what? What?
Speaker 1: What do you think?
Speaker 2: Then?
Speaker 1: What's your inside around What does Scott say that really
Speaker 1: got them upset? Because you know, whilst we're talking about
Speaker 1: the values of China and Australia and they accepted, they're
Speaker 1: practically understand it. What was it that really got up?
Speaker 2: It was unquestionably calling for a global inquiry into the
Speaker 2: source of COVID, so blaming and China was very embarrassed
Speaker 2: about COVID, as they should be. I mean, you think
Speaker 2: about it, no event in the history of humanity has
Speaker 2: affected every single household on the face of the.
Speaker 1: Earth except COVID, except COVID.
Speaker 2: Isn't that amazing? I mean we've had wars, and we've
Speaker 2: had you know, famines and you know environmental events. But
Speaker 2: the only event that went to every single house, every
Speaker 2: single home, every single on the face of the earth
Speaker 2: was COVID and China was responsible.
Speaker 1: Do you think for sure?
Speaker 2: Of course? Yeah, I mean it's absolutely, there's no doubt
Speaker 2: about it. But you know, I think Scott Morrison calling
Speaker 2: for a confirmation of that yeah, was just you know,
Speaker 2: China is all about face, right, very much about face,
Speaker 2: and that was seen as comfortation. He was right to
Speaker 2: do it. It was the right thing to do, he said.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, do you think that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Of course, yeah.
Speaker 1: But the punishment did befit the crime though?
Speaker 2: How did they punish it? They didn't buy some wine,
Speaker 2: they didn't buy.
Speaker 1: Lobsters sorry, some lobsters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we had cheap loobbies for a long time.
Speaker 1: But because and do you think that Trump then plays
Speaker 1: it right? Then when in terms of how he talks
Speaker 1: about China adding Paris, everything is going to.
Speaker 2: Come to I mean, that's he's playing a race card.
Speaker 1: Is that is that a good Is that a good
Speaker 1: narrative to win an election?
Speaker 2: Well? I'd hope not, but you know it is what
Speaker 2: it is something It's long been that sort of.
Speaker 1: What do you think is in that effect of Trump
Speaker 1: wins economically?
Speaker 2: I'm well, his policies, Ah, I don't know if their
Speaker 2: policies or their thoughts, but the amount of announcements he's made,
Speaker 2: if he were deliver them on tax cuts, tariffs and
Speaker 2: everything else would be diabolical.
Speaker 1: In what regard economic economically.
Speaker 2: I mean, the US is just running a massive deficit.
Speaker 2: It's borrowing from the rest of the world. Congress keeps
Speaker 2: approving these big deficit of budgets to the extent that,
Speaker 2: you know, if the US dollar is not the reserve
Speaker 2: currency of the world, they're screwed. So then there's nothing
Speaker 2: else at the moment. But you know, they're screwed. So
Speaker 2: the US, you know, can't sustain that. Trump's making it worse.
Speaker 2: He said he's he's going to reduce company tax to
Speaker 2: fifteen percent. He said, to go even further. He said
Speaker 2: he's going to carry on the tax cuts at sunset
Speaker 2: next year, but he could go further. He has come
Speaker 2: out and said credit card interest rates are too high.
Speaker 2: We're going to cap it at ten percent. Sounds great,
Speaker 2: but how does that work? Right? He's come out and
Speaker 2: he said he won't have a ten percent tariff on China.
Speaker 2: He's going to have a sixty percent tariff on China.
Speaker 1: So that's inflationy oh Man.
Speaker 2: Inflation goes through the roof because America has I think
Speaker 2: it's about a five hundred billion dollars trade deficit with China. Well,
Speaker 2: that means they're bringing it in, right, they're not manufacturing.
Speaker 2: And even if in the US they would going to
Speaker 2: manufacture it, they couldn't build that manufacturing overnight. So they're
Speaker 2: going to suddenly have you know, a sixty percent increase
Speaker 2: in the price of five hundred billion dollars worth of
Speaker 2: goods flows through the ecomomic.
Speaker 1: High and ends up here too, because we import that inflation.
Speaker 2: Of course we do, we import it, But what do
Speaker 2: mean crash out the US dollar? And you're starting to
Speaker 2: see that, you know, with interest rates coming down the
Speaker 2: US you're saying, you know, it's a great trade at
Speaker 2: the moment, buying the Aussie selling the US, but it'd
Speaker 2: go you know, she had the head towards parody.
Speaker 1: What about if she wins the Well, I.
Speaker 2: Mean, I don't know much better because she's talking about
Speaker 2: price controls and even derry. Yeah, she said she's going
Speaker 2: to price control groceries and everyone's going, how is that
Speaker 2: going to work? And that was the last economic policy
Speaker 2: she announced, and it's sort of faded off a bit,
Speaker 2: so no one quite knows what her economic policies are.
Speaker 1: Can I just switch direction? A little bit now and
Speaker 1: just talk about Australia because you know we're unless you're
Speaker 1: coming up, and we've got you know, we've got the RBA.
Speaker 2: We've always got lecture coming up.
Speaker 1: We seen to her. By the way, that seems to
Speaker 1: be a problem to me. You know, they did two reds.
Speaker 2: We do have stability. I mean, I'm really impressed with
Speaker 2: both the Labor Party and the Liberal Party having leadership stability, thank.
Speaker 1: God, talking in terms of Dunton and Albaniz.
Speaker 2: And they're respectful of it.
Speaker 1: Do you do you think ALBANIZI does have stability to
Speaker 1: do you think Jim's sit there? I mean that article
Speaker 1: that that storyline aitive that was written this week that
Speaker 1: Jim sort of love that Treasury paper out on negative
Speaker 1: gearing just when you happened to be going over.
Speaker 2: The Treasure has cop out all the time.
Speaker 1: They well, do you know how it works? So how
Speaker 1: did it work? How does that work? So just would
Speaker 1: if the Treasury, the Department of Treasury is doing some
Speaker 1: research on a topic, would they are they likely to
Speaker 1: be doing it on their own or would the Treasure
Speaker 1: have asked them to do it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's a bit of both.
Speaker 1: It's a gray area. Well, because you're in business today,
Speaker 1: you've got to be careful.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, it's a gray area. I asked
Speaker 2: Treasury when I was there, I said, do me a
Speaker 2: tax options paper, but let me tell you what I'm
Speaker 2: not going to do one, two, three, four five, And
Speaker 2: they came up with not. I released it and you know,
Speaker 2: nothing was implemented, so you know it varies. Of course,
Speaker 2: from a budget perspective, you'll have options. So when it
Speaker 2: comes to spending money, you bring in all your colleagues
Speaker 2: and you have an expenditure Review Committee and the Finance
Speaker 2: Minister is cracking the gavel and so on. But when
Speaker 2: it comes to revenue racing.
Speaker 1: It's just the treasure.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I think that's not about idea money the
Speaker 2: Prime Minister in In fact, when I was writing my
Speaker 2: first budget speech, Tony Abbit said, mate, mate, you're going
Speaker 2: to send it to me, I'd like to have some
Speaker 2: input into the speech. I said no, really, I said no, no, no.
Speaker 2: I consulted previous treasures and I said no, you don't
Speaker 2: chart to the primary it's your speech.
Speaker 1: And what was Abbot like to work with?
Speaker 2: He was great, Yeah, yeah, he's a very very decent guy.
Speaker 1: He's quite intelligent, very smart.
Speaker 2: Very smart, he's sharp, He's a very decent guy. I wish,
Speaker 2: you know, I wish the public had to send the
Speaker 2: Tony Abbot that I know. You know, he comes across
Speaker 2: as a sort of warrior and you know, traditionalists and
Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. But there's another Tony Abbot
Speaker 2: that people don't know, and he is a very selfless person.
Speaker 2: He's a very decent human.
Speaker 1: Man and as far as I'm aware, definitely not a misogynist,
Speaker 1: which is what trying to make out.
Speaker 2: He was in the chamber for that speech, and you know,
Speaker 2: it's been embellished and you know, become sort of an
Speaker 2: iconic for a certain cohort in the community. But he's not.
Speaker 2: He's not, I mean, but he suffered the same fate
Speaker 2: as Trump. He should have had more diversity in the
Speaker 2: cabinet and Trump should have probably run with it. He
Speaker 2: would be doing better if he had a female vice president.
Speaker 1: And when you look at politics today, I mean the
Speaker 1: bare pit, the bare pit part of politics, do you
Speaker 1: think it's descended into it into in a worse territory
Speaker 1: than it was when you were around?
Speaker 2: Or was I miss question?
Speaker 1: Tom Dear?
Speaker 2: I loved question Tom, and you know it's so good,
Speaker 2: it's so accountable. Other parliaments. You know, I've got friends
Speaker 2: in the British Parliament and all parliaments around the world
Speaker 2: and they just can't believe the Australian Parliament and you
Speaker 2: know what, the accountability is extraordinary.
Speaker 1: What do you mean they can't believe. What's the difference?
Speaker 2: Well, because because you walk in, you don't know what
Speaker 2: the questions are and it's brutal. I mean I remember,
Speaker 2: you know, I remember when the GESC was being introduced.
Speaker 2: I was responsible for that and I got ten questions
Speaker 2: in a row in question time and I'd like exhaust it,
Speaker 2: like it's like, you know, seriously flagellation on a grand scale.
Speaker 2: And everyone be going, God, ten questions, how did you
Speaker 2: do that? You know? And then I go and next
Speaker 2: day I get ten more questions. I remember John Howard
Speaker 2: slapping me on the back and saying, oh, you're losing
Speaker 2: a bit of bark, but you'll be okay, you know,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, God, was like, how do I do it?
Speaker 2: And you get the adrenaline before question time. You see,
Speaker 2: got to be on top of your brief because not
Speaker 2: only do the opposition, find out your own colleagues work out,
Speaker 2: and then the gallery and everyone else knows. You're not
Speaker 2: on top of your brief. So you need to know
Speaker 2: everything about your portfolio. And when you're the Treasurer and
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister, you need to know particularly so you know,
Speaker 2: when I delivered the fourteen budget that everyone still talks about, well,
Speaker 2: I was a great budget and the fourteen budget, you know,
Speaker 2: I said, I went on Q and A by myself
Speaker 2: on the ABC Q and A by myself, and everyone
Speaker 2: thought I was going to fail, and I was. It
Speaker 2: was Penwrith panthers, six hundred people. Apparently it was one
Speaker 2: of the highest ever rating Q.
Speaker 1: And as a friend environment Q and A.
Speaker 2: No, I wasn't a friendly environment, but I had to
Speaker 2: show that I was on top of my brief. And
Speaker 2: I have never in my life ever got such a
Speaker 2: big response as I did after that, from people saying, wow,
Speaker 2: that was you know, really important, really great you did it,
Speaker 2: and great performance and all that sort of stuff, because
Speaker 2: you had the opportunity shine in adverse circumstances, and in
Speaker 2: Parliament you can shine and get a message across when
Speaker 2: it's most hostile. It's not you can't create that environment.
Speaker 1: I got a sense that you're missing a bit of it.
Speaker 2: I miss question time. I mean I don't mind that,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't mind the tough questions and so on,
Speaker 2: like I want to be on top of my game.
Speaker 2: And you know, but America would be so much better
Speaker 2: if it had its cabinet subject to that cross examination
Speaker 2: on the floor of Congress. They do it a bit
Speaker 2: in the Senate hearings and so on, but you know,
Speaker 2: that's just one hour every four months, six months, you know,
Speaker 2: whereas question times every day of Parliament. Sitting in the
Speaker 2: British Parliament, they again, they don't do it every day.
Speaker 2: They have Prime Minister's questions once every two weeks or
Speaker 2: one week or something like that. So I think Australia
Speaker 2: has a great democracy and great accountability. It's one of
Speaker 2: the reasons why we've got so little corruption. That's why
Speaker 2: we do have a really good police system.
Speaker 1: And if I was to ask you now, Joe said,
Speaker 1: it's only based on what you know so far. What
Speaker 1: do you think will happen in the election next year Australia.
Speaker 2: Oh, well, it's obviously going to be close. Firstly, do
Speaker 2: not believe that a government cannot lose in the first term.
Speaker 1: It can.
Speaker 2: And Anthony Alberese wasn't elected with the majorities that Howard
Speaker 2: had in ninety six, that rud had in two thousand
Speaker 2: and seven, or that Abbott had in twenty thirteen. We
Speaker 2: had twenty thirty seats. He's got I think five or
Speaker 2: six right, so you can lose very quickly. The second
Speaker 2: thing is you've got to have an agenda, and I
Speaker 2: think Peter Dutton has done a great job and rolling
Speaker 2: out the agenda controversial at times, but everyone it really
Speaker 2: does know what Peter Dutton stands for. And I think
Speaker 2: and Anthony Alberz he's a very decent guy. I mean,
Speaker 2: he's a made of mind to be honest, and you know,
Speaker 2: he's a very he needs to have something that he's
Speaker 2: going to fight for. And the hardest election I ever
Speaker 2: forore Man, you remember it GST election eight, Oh my god,
Speaker 2: and it was just absolute conviction. I just like to
Speaker 2: I couldn't stand. I was campaigning and when the butcher
Speaker 2: at Cameray told me, you know, he grilled me on
Speaker 2: the GST for like an hour and a half and
Speaker 2: on one vote and I'm working over time. He speaks
Speaker 2: to people that come in. And then he said, I
Speaker 2: hate the bloody thing. I'm not going to I'm not
Speaker 2: going to support it. And then as I'm walking out,
Speaker 2: he said, oh all right, I'll vote for you. I
Speaker 2: thought I was just exhausted, right, and I thought, oh
Speaker 2: my god, if we've had the courage to go to
Speaker 2: the electorate with something that is unpopular but it's absolutely
Speaker 2: the right thing for Australian. When we won, I was
Speaker 2: so elated more than any other time because I restored
Speaker 2: my faith in the Australian popular.
Speaker 1: So would you think that? But what what controversial topic
Speaker 1: or controver a sure conviction that either one of the
Speaker 1: parties should be going to the election with. I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean, as nuclear is one, But what other thing
Speaker 1: is there something that you reckon would be a winner?
Speaker 2: Well, I think you've got to show Australians how you're
Speaker 2: going to make their lives better, what's for me? And well, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's right, and that's fair enough. I mean, that's that's
Speaker 2: the world we've grown up in living. And but the
Speaker 2: thing is, it's not always going to be ice cream
Speaker 2: and lollies. Sometimes you're going to have your veggies and
Speaker 2: it's the courage to say to people, actually, we're going
Speaker 2: to have to do some hard yards here. Now. I
Speaker 2: admit twenty fourteen my budget, you know, I tried to
Speaker 2: do that, and what people said, you know, maybe it
Speaker 2: was my failure, maybe it was our failure, whatever the case,
Speaker 2: maybe it didn't prepare the ground. But in that budget,
Speaker 2: you know, think of it. I was, I was, I
Speaker 2: was murder for a five dollar co payment to go
Speaker 2: and see a doctor.
Speaker 1: This is a sterity period, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And I said, if we don't fix the roof now
Speaker 2: while the sun shining, then we're going to end up
Speaker 2: in work shape for and like you know what happened. Now,
Speaker 2: how much does it cost to go and see a doctor? Right?
Speaker 2: Forty dollars? Fifty dollars? People are telling me, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: If we had have got that through, it would have
Speaker 2: had some semblance of co payment. And by the way,
Speaker 2: six million people were excluding from any payment, right, so
Speaker 2: that was lost and then you know, more of a
Speaker 2: work for the doll and a few things that we
Speaker 2: had a lot of them actually went through from the
Speaker 2: fourteen budget. It just took a few years. But there
Speaker 2: are other things. You look at Western Sydney airport that
Speaker 2: was that budget. No government had the balls to do
Speaker 2: it for fifty sixty years, and the Abbot Hockey government did.
Speaker 2: And now, I mean I was so proud. I saw
Speaker 2: Albert Easy yesterday say yes, I'm so proud of that. Right,
Speaker 2: I'm so proud of it. West Connects, Stage two, some
Speaker 2: of these things around Sydney. Every city in Australia got
Speaker 2: some infrastructure. The Medical Research Future Fund. I nearly died
Speaker 2: trying to get that up and it got up. Now
Speaker 2: when I hear a maid of mine who's a professor
Speaker 2: an eye surgery, he's now he got forty million dollars
Speaker 2: from that fund to build an eye and he's close
Speaker 2: to it. He's really, that's exactly what we're doing. We're
Speaker 2: investing in our health. So there are things you do
Speaker 2: in politics. And I'd love my children to go into politics.
Speaker 2: I'd love anyone's children, anyone to go into politics. Is
Speaker 2: you can make a difference, you really can. And you
Speaker 2: know what, They're not going to build monuments to you,
Speaker 2: but you just got to look around and you see
Speaker 2: a better quality of life and that's all worth it
Speaker 2: for everyone.
Speaker 1: And quick prediction in the US.
Speaker 2: Made too close to call.
Speaker 1: I mean, oh, it's that close.
Speaker 2: It is really that close. So because of the electoral system,
Speaker 2: Harris needs to win the national vote by about three percent,
Speaker 2: two to three percent. She's polling two one and a
Speaker 2: half to two I have on the If enthusiasm were
Speaker 2: the pole, she'd be through the roof Trump. I think
Speaker 2: of everyone that's going to vote for Harris is going
Speaker 2: to tell you. I reckon five out of one hundred
Speaker 2: that are voting for Trump won't tell you. And that's
Speaker 2: been proven in the past.
Speaker 1: So therefore polls aren't correct.
Speaker 2: Now his poles are not correct. I think hers are
Speaker 2: probably correct where she's at, but I think they're underestimating
Speaker 2: him by varying from place to place one to three percent.
Speaker 1: Because people are not ashamed, but maybe embarrassed.
Speaker 2: To Also they don't want to tell it because they
Speaker 2: fear they're going to be, you know, ostracized and smash.
Speaker 2: I mean twenty twenty, I remember speaking to people in
Speaker 2: the richest area of Houston and they said, come down
Speaker 2: and that was one of the rare places you could
Speaker 2: go during that period, and they're all, you know Biden signed.
Speaker 2: I said, Oh my god, I said, if Biden's you know,
Speaker 2: he's going to rob at home if this demography and
Speaker 2: they said, oh god, we never put a Trump sign up,
Speaker 2: would be our house would be egged and everything else.
Speaker 2: That area voted seventy percent Trump. Wow, So you know,
Speaker 2: like it's it's it's a very hard to read. I
Speaker 2: mean Wisconsin last election, they underestimated Trump's vote by five
Speaker 2: percent in two thousand and six and it was about
Speaker 2: seven percent. You know, they underestimated it. So and Wisconsin
Speaker 2: is a key state. So I think it's incredibly close.
Speaker 2: And the House and the Senate are incredibly close as well.
Speaker 2: So you know, I met with a delegation this morning.
Speaker 2: The two Republicans told me they thought it's probable that
Speaker 2: Harris might win. And the two Democrats me, they thought, there.
Speaker 1: You go and joe Es fine, mate, are you enjoy
Speaker 1: your life?
Speaker 2: Oh? Man I am. I like it's you know, I've
Speaker 2: been blessed. Mane. I'm the son of a Palestinian refugee
Speaker 2: came to Australia, never thought he'd ever get a chance
Speaker 2: to live a life. Met a pix model from BONDI
Speaker 2: got to name my firm Bondi.
Speaker 1: Apartment Peaks Pias model being the amazing Peak magazine picks.
Speaker 2: Yes it was.
Speaker 1: They were always in the barbershop and in the dentists,
Speaker 1: in the doctor well.
Speaker 2: It was respectable those days. It was like fashions in
Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties and the nineteen forties, from nineteen forties
Speaker 2: and fifties. And I wouldn't you know. I pinched myself
Speaker 2: how lucky I am. And you know when I go
Speaker 2: to Washington, I got great mates in the White House
Speaker 2: and outside the White House. And you know, I still
Speaker 2: have conversations with people where I go. I can't believe
Speaker 2: I'm listening to this.
Speaker 1: And do you see the current ambassador? Do you have
Speaker 1: much to do with Kemi?
Speaker 2: I do? I do? I do I do? And you
Speaker 2: know Kevin of course I was on Sutrise with him
Speaker 2: for ten years, right Morning TV, and we're union, yeah,
Speaker 2: and I love taking the mickey out of.
Speaker 1: It, but do to pologics drop away then when he
Speaker 1: takes over the ambassadorship and you sort of.
Speaker 2: It's Team Australia, always know, no matter what, no matter what.
Speaker 2: Kim Beasley was great to me, all of us, you know,
Speaker 2: Chipping after Arthur was after me. Everyone. Arthur's great and no,
Speaker 2: it's Australia first, always and as it should be right.
Speaker 2: And so I, you know, kept telling major Republicans and
Speaker 2: Trump people that Kevin's a good man and he's doing
Speaker 2: the right thing by Australia and he's got Australian support
Speaker 2: and that's what you do.
Speaker 1: But hasn't helped by what he said in the past.
Speaker 2: But no, and you know, but Trump's got a long
Speaker 2: list before he gets to Kevin r But I'll tell
Speaker 2: you a funny story. He's like, you know, I, for
Speaker 2: my sins did Q and A. You know, just before
Speaker 2: he was announced and Stan Grant asked me, he said,
Speaker 2: you know who should be the ambassador replace artist? I said, oh,
Speaker 2: I don't want to get into it. And he said,
Speaker 2: come on, you know and I said, well, maybe Julia
Speaker 2: Gillard or something. He says, what about Kevin Rudd? And
Speaker 2: I said, well, I thought we liked the Americans. Kevin
Speaker 2: was verb Oh God. So I'm sitting at the couch
Speaker 2: and hi, joke Kevin, I'm coming over. He comes over
Speaker 2: and second bottle of wide started. He said, why do
Speaker 2: you hate me? I said, no, no hate you. He said,
Speaker 2: why did you say that? You know, like I said, mate,
Speaker 2: you're going to have a sense of humor after all
Speaker 2: these years, let's have a sense of humor here, Like
Speaker 2: I've had another bottle. So, you know, he and he's
Speaker 2: doing a great job. He really is. He's you know,
Speaker 2: it adds enormous gravitas to have a form prime minister
Speaker 2: as ambassador. As I say, he finally got the promotion,
Speaker 2: and then and then the thing is, you know, he
Speaker 2: has worked really hard at it, and I've defended him
Speaker 2: publicly and that's awkward for some of my team back
Speaker 2: in Australia in politics, but it's the right thing to do.
Speaker 2: He is, he's been doing a good job.
Speaker 1: Well made, You're doing a great job. You did, You're
Speaker 1: you're one. I've always been a fan of Joe Hockey,
Speaker 1: as you know, but you've done a great job for us,
Speaker 1: both in politics in Australia but also representing in America
Speaker 1: and what you're doing with your business these days. I'm
Speaker 1: hearing all the stories, and I hear lots of people
Speaker 1: talk to me, lots of people tell me about what
Speaker 1: Bondo Partners are doing outside of you know, outside of
Speaker 1: our usual group of friends. I hear your name raised
Speaker 1: a lot to make Congratulations and well done and things.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you a leaf out of your if I
Speaker 2: would be one tenth of successful. Mate is Mark Burris.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what I'll be happy.
Speaker 1: I tell you where you are successful. You're still married
Speaker 1: and you've got a lovely family mate. You're a hundred
Speaker 1: times more successful. Might well?
Speaker 2: I love to me quite the same, Yea, they do.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much,