WEBVTT - Bombs, bullets and the boy from Bendigo: Mike Amor Pt.1

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective see a side of life. The average person is

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<v Speaker 1>never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes in the contact with crime is

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<v Speaker 1>left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into

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<v Speaker 1>this world. Today, I had a fascinating chat with Mike Amore.

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<v Speaker 1>Mike was a foreign correspondent for eighten years and in

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<v Speaker 1>that role witness some of the worst moments in recent

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<v Speaker 1>world history. And we talked about those moments today in

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<v Speaker 1>New York when the planes hit the World Trade Center

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<v Speaker 1>during the September eleventh terrorist attack, reporting from scenes of

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<v Speaker 1>countless mass shootings in America and even Australia's own port

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<v Speaker 1>Arthur massacre. He takes us on the ground following Hurricane

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<v Speaker 1>Katrina and the aftermath when the people of New Orleans

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<v Speaker 1>seem to be forgotten by their own country. We also

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<v Speaker 1>discuss the Haiti earthquake and what it was like being

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<v Speaker 1>involved in the rescue of an infant child who was

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<v Speaker 1>trapped in the rubble with the dead parents for up

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<v Speaker 1>to four days. Mike has had countless stories and adventures,

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<v Speaker 1>and he talks about them today. Some are shocking, others

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<v Speaker 1>are remarkable. But what I got from the conversation more

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<v Speaker 1>than the stories, was an understanding of the importance of accurate,

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<v Speaker 1>timely reporting and the personal cost of witnessing these events.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's have a listen, Mike Amore, Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh it's a pleasure. Thank you. Gary.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, as I was saying the other day, I was

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<v Speaker 1>walking through the airport waiting for my flight, and I

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<v Speaker 1>found myself where I usually do at an airport, in

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<v Speaker 1>the bookstore, and news cowboys jumped out at me. Your

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<v Speaker 1>book and I picked that up, and I was hooked

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<v Speaker 1>right from the start. But let you in on a

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<v Speaker 1>little secret. My fantasy is if I ever came back

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<v Speaker 1>to this world, i'd be a foreign correspondent. I think

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<v Speaker 1>that stems from watching George Nigas back in the sixty

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<v Speaker 1>minutes stays on the back of a jeep going through

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<v Speaker 1>the war zones with a scarf around his neck, that

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<v Speaker 1>type of thing, but fascinating life, the life of a

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<v Speaker 1>foreign correspondent.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I've been very lucky. Gary. I don't think I've

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<v Speaker 2>ever been as charismatic as George was, but yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>too grew up watching him, and I think that was

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<v Speaker 2>part of the spur to being wanting to be a

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<v Speaker 2>foreign correspondent. For me. That's the tip of the sword

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<v Speaker 2>as far as journalism is concerned. It's what I always

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to do, and I'm so grateful that I had

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<v Speaker 2>the opportunity for eighteen years.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a long time, and I think we've journalists by nature,

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<v Speaker 1>they're curious and then ares a foreign correspondent. You find

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<v Speaker 1>yourself in some of the most history making situations.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and sometimes by accident. Sometimes you don't mean to

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<v Speaker 2>be there. Case in Points September eleven. You know, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>a boyfriend Bendigo. So I've traveled to I've forgotten how

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<v Speaker 2>many countries, sixty plus countries around the world, and I've

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<v Speaker 2>seen places that most people don't get to see, in

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<v Speaker 2>circumstances that most people don't want to see. So I'm

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<v Speaker 2>grateful for that.

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<v Speaker 1>How did you find yourself as a journalist? First of all,

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<v Speaker 1>they didn't just say, hey, pluck you from the street

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<v Speaker 1>and we want you as a foreign correspondent. How did

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<v Speaker 1>you get into journalism and then the work that you

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<v Speaker 1>did as a foreign correspondent.

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<v Speaker 2>I think if my old English teacher tuned into this,

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<v Speaker 2>if they're still alive, be saying that bloke is the

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<v Speaker 2>last guy that we thought would be a journalist and

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<v Speaker 2>b write a book about journalism. I almost failed Year

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<v Speaker 2>twelve English. I sucked in Year twelve. I almost failed

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<v Speaker 2>Year twelve completely. But my father was a newspaper printer

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<v Speaker 2>for all of his career forty years at the local

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<v Speaker 2>Bendigo Advertiser. So I'm the original Nepo baby. Nepotism ruled

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<v Speaker 2>for me. I played that card and Dad got me

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<v Speaker 2>in and I was able to become a copy person

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<v Speaker 2>at the Bendigo Advertiser, the local paper, which was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of part of the family for me because Dad had

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<v Speaker 2>been there for so long. So the person out the

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<v Speaker 2>back was not Bob the compositor. He was Uncle Bob.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, nepotism. I had no right to be a journalist.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll use it if you can.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, exactly. It doesn't matter how you get in,

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<v Speaker 2>I tell my son, doesn't matter how you get in, son,

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<v Speaker 2>it's what you do when you get there, get the

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<v Speaker 2>foot in the door to start with me, exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>So you started out the print journalism.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it was a great foundation, and it was,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's a unity paper, very proud paper, the

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<v Speaker 2>Benigo Advertiser, Goldfield's paper, and it was chock full of

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<v Speaker 2>very experienced journalists that had come back from metropolitan newspapers

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<v Speaker 2>for a quieter life. But with them they brought this

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<v Speaker 2>wealth of experience. So cranky, big drinking, very you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they'd start the day off kind of grumpy and my job,

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<v Speaker 2>my first job was to deliver them coffees to them

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<v Speaker 2>and I'd kind of took me a while to work

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<v Speaker 2>out while they were grumpy in the morning and then

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<v Speaker 2>very charismatic in the afternoon. And it quickly dawned on

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<v Speaker 2>me that they were tipping in a couple of additives

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<v Speaker 2>to my horrible coffee.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, your coffee was just a cover.

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<v Speaker 2>It was definitely a cover. And back in those days,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, about four o'clock the smoke would start hanging

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<v Speaker 2>off the ceiling and it was a very colorful day,

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<v Speaker 2>a colorful period of journalism. Perhaps that last generation of

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<v Speaker 2>those colorful journals that were really heavy drinkers. They'd go

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<v Speaker 2>down to the pub and I'd watch in aw as

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<v Speaker 2>they down twelve pots. But they are very good at

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<v Speaker 2>what they did, and they were hard task masters. They

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<v Speaker 2>taught me the foundations of journalism and that's stuck with me.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was very lucky.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's a skill set that practical on the job

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<v Speaker 1>learning that you get and starting at the bottom of

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<v Speaker 1>the run and working your way through. At first you

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<v Speaker 1>might appreciate it, but when you look back now, it

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<v Speaker 1>is the grounding that helps you throughout your career. I

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<v Speaker 1>would imagine.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, And you know they were tough, tough love.

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<v Speaker 2>Probably in today's terms, maybe they might have been accused

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<v Speaker 2>of bullying. But I really appreciate it because I think

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<v Speaker 2>that journalism is a discipline as much as it is anything.

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<v Speaker 2>You have to adhere to the fundamentals of journalism, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's something that's stuck with me throughout my career. I

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<v Speaker 2>struggle when I first started, I don't get me wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought about leaving maybe a year into the job,

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<v Speaker 2>but they encouraged me to stick at it. So I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not a natural to this business journalism in general, and

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<v Speaker 2>certainly not television. I've had to work really hard to

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<v Speaker 2>get to where I am now.

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<v Speaker 1>The move to television, how did that occur? Was that

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<v Speaker 1>by chance or is it something that you were aiming towards.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I took it when I was in school. I

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<v Speaker 2>actually did a work experience period at the local television

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<v Speaker 2>station in Bendigo as a cameraman. By the way, because

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<v Speaker 2>I never imagined i'd be a journalist, so in the

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<v Speaker 2>back of my mind I was fascinated by because the

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<v Speaker 2>difference in journalism in a local newspaper is you'll be

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<v Speaker 2>on the phone predominantly, whereas in TV you have to

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<v Speaker 2>go out. So that kind of always appealed to me,

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<v Speaker 2>being out and about seeing things. And I got a

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<v Speaker 2>job offer down in Gippsland in Country Victoria after about

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<v Speaker 2>three years, and I went down there and spend a year.

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<v Speaker 2>They got homesick, came back to Bendigo, back to the

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<v Speaker 2>Benni Graddy and I bounced around regional newspapers and television

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<v Speaker 2>until I was about twenty six when I got the

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<v Speaker 2>job at Channel seven.

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<v Speaker 1>And how was your first experiences live in front of

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<v Speaker 1>the camera, Because it is daunting, like if ever you're

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<v Speaker 1>going to make a fool of yourself, it's at that point.

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<v Speaker 2>I've made full of myself plenty of times, and I

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<v Speaker 2>still do my first live because we didn't do live

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<v Speaker 2>very much back when I started, because you needed a

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<v Speaker 2>truck and it was a lot more complicated than it

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<v Speaker 2>is today where they use a backpack to go live.

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<v Speaker 2>I was actually in Port Arthur when I did one

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<v Speaker 2>of my first live hits, that terrible massacre, and I

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<v Speaker 2>had feedback come into my ear so you could hear yourself,

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<v Speaker 2>but because of the delay, it was like two three

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<v Speaker 2>seconds delayed, and I thought it was someone talking to

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<v Speaker 2>me and I froze and that scarred me for a

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<v Speaker 2>long period of time. In fact, when I initially said

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<v Speaker 2>to my then news director, I wanted to become a

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<v Speaker 2>foreign correst responded he said, mate, you'd be a bloody

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<v Speaker 2>good foreign correspondent, but you can't do a live cross

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<v Speaker 2>to just swear you can't do a live cross to

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<v Speaker 2>save yourself, So I can't. I can't help you.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, so a bit of a slap down. Well

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<v Speaker 1>i'll go, but I know what you're talking about with

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<v Speaker 1>that feedback, And I in my early days in the cops.

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<v Speaker 1>If I was doing a live live cross and you've

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<v Speaker 1>got something in your ear and it's a delay and

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<v Speaker 1>the echoing and or you can't hear it all and

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<v Speaker 1>you're trying to read someone's lips to anticipate what they've

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<v Speaker 1>just asked you then to respond, yeah, it is is daunting.

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<v Speaker 1>So I am making a living out of it. That

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<v Speaker 1>you ended up doing it must be something. Okay, I

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<v Speaker 1>can get better at this. I will achieve this. Were

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<v Speaker 1>you're practicing home in front of the mirror or.

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<v Speaker 2>Not quite not quite that. I just had to stick

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<v Speaker 2>with it, and you know, just put those horrible voices

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<v Speaker 2>in your head, you know, to the to the back

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<v Speaker 2>of the room kind of thing. You know, you just

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<v Speaker 2>have to ignore those negative kind of feelings. And we

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<v Speaker 2>all go through that in one way or another in life.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's just a learning experience, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a challenge, but it's worth it.

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<v Speaker 2>In the end.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a true crime podcast. We're going to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about some of the crimes that you've covered in your

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<v Speaker 1>eighteen years as a foreign correspondent. But I just want

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<v Speaker 1>to go through some of the things that you've done

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<v Speaker 1>which is not necessarily crime related, but as a foreign correspondent,

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<v Speaker 1>I think if I read this out, people might get

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<v Speaker 1>a sense of why I consider it potentially a dream job. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so you've traveled to over sixty countries. You're in Hong

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<v Speaker 1>Kong for the handover of the British rule, the aftermath

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<v Speaker 1>of the Swiss Canyoning disaster, in which twenty one adventure

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<v Speaker 1>of tourists died, including fourteen Australians. I'd forgotten about that.

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<v Speaker 1>That was a horrendous situation. Hasn't You've headed towards hurricanes

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<v Speaker 1>and earthquakes, been to war zones, ask the American president's questions.

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<v Speaker 1>You're probably glad you're not asking the current American president questions.

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<v Speaker 1>I have an own question, but I have it. Okay, Well,

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<v Speaker 1>we'll touch on that. You've covered funerals of Ronald Reagan,

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<v Speaker 1>Margaret Thatcher, Fidel Castro, Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson, whole range

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<v Speaker 1>of things attended five Olympic Games, two Football World Cups,

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<v Speaker 1>wrestled with wild Ana Condas who were taking over the

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<v Speaker 1>Everglades being detained in China deport them from an African nation,

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<v Speaker 1>invited to play basketball with Lebron James, and you hung

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<v Speaker 1>out with Andy Thomas, Australia's first astronaut. And what's the

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<v Speaker 1>space shuttle? That is? If that wasn't your job, and

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<v Speaker 1>you just these are the things I want to see

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<v Speaker 1>and do and you put that on a bucket list.

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<v Speaker 1>They're the type of things that you want to experience

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<v Speaker 1>in life. What's your memories of those type of events

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<v Speaker 1>that you've seen and witnessed?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, well, to see four space shuttles take off Gary,

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<v Speaker 2>including the last one. People pay to see that, And

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<v Speaker 2>I got paid to go and do that. So that's

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<v Speaker 2>kind of one of the benefits of the jobs. There's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of drawbacks. I saw a lot of horrible things,

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<v Speaker 2>but I also got to do a lot of things

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<v Speaker 2>that people dream about, like yourself. You know, just a

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<v Speaker 2>space shuttle that feel that rumble and hear that roar

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<v Speaker 2>and you kind of reminds you of the power of humanity.

0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.079
<v Speaker 2>Then on the flip side of that you see the

0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.560
<v Speaker 2>power of Mother Nature which kind of overwhelms the power

0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:22.760
<v Speaker 2>of humanity no matter how strong we become. With earthquakes

0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:28.040
<v Speaker 2>and Haiti and hurricanes like Katrina. Yeah, these are things

0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.120
<v Speaker 2>that they stick with you.

0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:34.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the power of nature. In your book, you talked

0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.520
<v Speaker 1>about the volcano eruption in Hawaii. Tell us about that,

0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:42.760
<v Speaker 1>because that would be fascinating. That's saying nature. It's urorus.

0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:46.320
<v Speaker 2>So Kilaway is on the Big Island of Hawaii and

0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:52.920
<v Speaker 2>in twenty eighteen, these big fisures started breaking up into

0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:59.679
<v Speaker 2>neighborhoods and it was an eruption, but literally fountains of

0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:05.120
<v Speaker 2>molten lava would break up into suburban streets and just

0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:11.440
<v Speaker 2>swallow up these homes. And we went along and we're

0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.720
<v Speaker 2>told we weren't going to get anywhere near these molten

0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:18.200
<v Speaker 2>lava fountains because it was just too dangerous. But we

0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.200
<v Speaker 2>happened upon a group of people who are gathering in

0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:24.880
<v Speaker 2>this shopping center and they were talking to some National

0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:26.719
<v Speaker 2>guard and we just pulled up and it turned out

0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.880
<v Speaker 2>they were local media about to get an organized tour

0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:34.720
<v Speaker 2>into these neighborhoods that were being swallowed up by the

0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:38.760
<v Speaker 2>lava and using my Australian accent, which I often relied upon.

0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.880
<v Speaker 2>Could we tag along, mate, and the National Guard had

0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.840
<v Speaker 2>served with Australians in the Middle East. Oh you know,

0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:49.520
<v Speaker 2>it normally takes twenty four hours for you to get

0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:51.760
<v Speaker 2>to prove but you auses we love you would jump

0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.400
<v Speaker 2>in the back. So we found ourselves like that card. Yeah,

0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:56.600
<v Speaker 2>so we did it a lot in the back of

0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:03.040
<v Speaker 2>this National Guard hum v going into these neighborhoods. Just

0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.600
<v Speaker 2>again talking about the power of mother nature. We were

0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:11.040
<v Speaker 2>maybe one hundred meters from this fountain of molten lava

0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.240
<v Speaker 2>and we're told by the National Guard troops, if we

0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:17.960
<v Speaker 2>tell you to run, drop your equipment and run, because

0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:22.000
<v Speaker 2>they had these meters that measured the sulfur in the air,

0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.200
<v Speaker 2>and he said, if it wind swings around and pushes

0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:26.880
<v Speaker 2>it in our direction, we've got to go or we'll

0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:30.080
<v Speaker 2>be dead in seconds. So that was the That was

0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.080
<v Speaker 2>kind of the background, but it was I was just

0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:37.760
<v Speaker 2>in awe of seeing this in person. It was unbelievable.

0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's incredible what you see. And the title of

0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:45.440
<v Speaker 1>the book news Cowboys. You've got to have a little

0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:50.120
<v Speaker 1>bit of risk taking, calculate the risks, but things like that,

0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.320
<v Speaker 1>to get close, to get the shot, to experience what

0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:57.600
<v Speaker 1>you're reporting on, you would have come across a couple

0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:01.000
<v Speaker 1>of dodgy situations, I would imagine, or risky situations.

0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:05.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh well, I mean we called ourselves news cowboys. It

0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:06.760
<v Speaker 2>was the kind of the tongue in cheek kind of

0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:09.840
<v Speaker 2>reference to what we felt like. We're always riding into

0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.840
<v Speaker 2>a new adventure, underprepared and not really knowing what we're doing,

0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.160
<v Speaker 2>and somehow, more often than not, we pulled it off.

0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we went into Libya during the Arab spring

0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.120
<v Speaker 2>and in the back of smuggled ourselves basically in the

0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.720
<v Speaker 2>back of ambulances that were being taken to the to

0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:34.640
<v Speaker 2>the front line. We've chased cartel members in Mexico. It

0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:38.240
<v Speaker 2>didn't actually make the book, but these small towns in

0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:42.520
<v Speaker 2>deep Mexico had run the cartel out of their villages

0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.640
<v Speaker 2>and use their weapons and against them, and they were

0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:47.600
<v Speaker 2>hunting them, and we went on the hunt with them,

0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:49.440
<v Speaker 2>and they told us we're going to get into a

0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:53.720
<v Speaker 2>fire fight, and yeah, so yeah, I mean we took

0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.640
<v Speaker 2>we took risks. Sometimes I'd like to say they were calculated.

0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:59.160
<v Speaker 2>Perhaps we're not that smart, and we weren't that calculator,

0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.960
<v Speaker 2>but we, thankfully we're still here to tell the story.

0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.880
<v Speaker 1>Do you get do you get conditioned to it? Like

0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.920
<v Speaker 1>is it become like an adrenaline? And it's horrible to say,

0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.960
<v Speaker 1>but I do understand that, like, Okay, well that was good,

0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.320
<v Speaker 1>let's push it a little bit further. Do you get

0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.400
<v Speaker 1>conditioned to it? But then also you get attracted to

0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:18.400
<v Speaker 1>it too.

0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:20.600
<v Speaker 2>And that's the danger. You do get conditioned to it.

0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:24.960
<v Speaker 2>I can see having covered the Arab spring in Libya

0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:28.200
<v Speaker 2>and being on the front line and we had a

0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:30.880
<v Speaker 2>wallplane drop a bomb near us and they shot the

0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:34.800
<v Speaker 2>warplane down. And we're in Israel overlooking Gaza during the

0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.480
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and eight war and a hill overlooking Gaza

0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.960
<v Speaker 2>and a bomb I don't know if it was a

0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:44.560
<v Speaker 2>mortar or a rocket landed on the hill beside us,

0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:47.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, a couple hundred meters away. You know, common

0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:50.240
<v Speaker 2>sense would tell you to take cover. We didn't because

0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:54.000
<v Speaker 2>we were conditioned to it. I can see how some

0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.800
<v Speaker 2>journals get addicted to this stuff because you know, your

0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:03.960
<v Speaker 2>adrenaline is pumping and you walk away from it thinking, wow,

0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:05.160
<v Speaker 2>that was thrilling.

0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's funny and I suppose a lot of people

0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.080
<v Speaker 1>don't talk about it, but it's almost like getting that fix,

0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:15.679
<v Speaker 1>that adrenaline that is, and you've got to check yourself,

0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:17.800
<v Speaker 1>step away from it. And I suppose now you look

0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:21.040
<v Speaker 1>back and go, hmm, maybe that wasn't the wisest thing

0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:21.800
<v Speaker 1>to do, but.

0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:26.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and they're much smarter now, Gary, and they have experts,

0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.879
<v Speaker 2>you know, security teams with these journalists now who are

0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.080
<v Speaker 2>conditioned to know when you're pushing it too far. We

0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.080
<v Speaker 2>didn't really have that, so we were kind of green,

0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.879
<v Speaker 2>naive and that's dangerous and we push the limits. Luckily

0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:42.760
<v Speaker 2>we got away with it, but you know, so many

0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.159
<v Speaker 2>people don't get away with it. So many journals do

0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.000
<v Speaker 2>pay the price for it. And it's not just being

0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:50.320
<v Speaker 2>killed in a war. I mean things like a lot

0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:53.760
<v Speaker 2>of journo's foreign correspondents get killed in car accidents. That's

0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.680
<v Speaker 2>some of the most dangerous parts of the job. Because

0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:59.639
<v Speaker 2>you're driving across the Sahara Desert a one hundred and

0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:00.840
<v Speaker 2>eighty meters an hour.

0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:05.040
<v Speaker 1>You know, well, you even hear the military types talk

0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:08.200
<v Speaker 1>about that. They can quite often the dangers getting to

0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:11.040
<v Speaker 1>the location because of absolute the vehicles.

0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:12.800
<v Speaker 2>You're traveling in so absolutely.

0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:16.880
<v Speaker 1>You mentioned the Port Arthur and that was in your

0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.960
<v Speaker 1>early days. So when we talked the Port Arthur massacre,

0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:25.679
<v Speaker 1>thirty five people murdered. Martin Bryant was the offender. You

0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:28.439
<v Speaker 1>got called down a couple of days after the event,

0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:32.320
<v Speaker 1>but quite strangely, you were actually at the what was

0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.920
<v Speaker 1>it the Broad Arrow Cafe a couple of weeks before

0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:37.320
<v Speaker 1>Martin Bryant went in there and killed twelve people.

0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:41.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I was with my then girlfriend and we'd been

0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.960
<v Speaker 2>to Tasmania for the first time two weeks two weekends

0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:47.560
<v Speaker 2>before the Port Arthur massacre happened, so we'd had lunch

0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:50.919
<v Speaker 2>in the Broad Arrow Cafe. The memory of the ladies

0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.280
<v Speaker 2>who were working in there was still very real to me,

0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:59.600
<v Speaker 2>so when it happened, I could picture everything, really, the

0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.960
<v Speaker 2>ticket booth on the way in the car park, where

0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:05.600
<v Speaker 2>Martin Bryant chased so many people. So it was very

0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.600
<v Speaker 2>real to me. And you're right, I wasn't the first

0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:10.399
<v Speaker 2>wave of journalists to go down. I think I was

0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:13.359
<v Speaker 2>twenty six, so I was still very young and green.

0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:16.440
<v Speaker 2>But I got sent down two or three days later,

0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:20.600
<v Speaker 2>and that's a story that really hit me very hard.

0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:24.879
<v Speaker 2>I've covered a lot of stories massacres since, but that

0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.920
<v Speaker 2>one was kind of personal to me because it was Australians.

0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:32.960
<v Speaker 2>I kind of was able to distance myself a little

0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.560
<v Speaker 2>bit in other massacres by saying, this is happening to

0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.240
<v Speaker 2>another country. If that sounds callous, but the way I

0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:44.119
<v Speaker 2>protected myself, but Port Arthur was very personal. And to

0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.120
<v Speaker 2>be in Hobart at that time, you know, people were

0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:51.040
<v Speaker 2>just they were destroyed. They were destroyed, and you know,

0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:53.800
<v Speaker 2>if you didn't know somebody involved, you knew of somebody

0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:58.480
<v Speaker 2>who knew somebody. It was a shocking crime. And you know,

0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:02.800
<v Speaker 2>I ended up covering Martin Bryant pleading guilty in the

0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:06.120
<v Speaker 2>Supreme Court and I sat probably I don't know five

0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:07.840
<v Speaker 2>meters away from him as he laughed.

0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:10.879
<v Speaker 1>Tell me about that, because it's quite chilling when the

0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:13.520
<v Speaker 1>charges have been read out and he's asked to enter

0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:17.040
<v Speaker 1>a plea and he was treating that as a comedy.

0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:22.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I never forget the look of him, a big

0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:27.280
<v Speaker 2>shock of curly blonde hair and these piercing, staring eyes

0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:31.159
<v Speaker 2>like something out of a horror movie. It really was.

0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:35.919
<v Speaker 2>And the prosecutor was going through the charges. You know,

0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:40.200
<v Speaker 2>you have been charged with killing this person on this day,

0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:45.280
<v Speaker 2>how do you plead? And he he pleaded guilty, but

0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:48.840
<v Speaker 2>he seemed to find some amusement in the fact that

0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:51.879
<v Speaker 2>it was repeated, you know, on this day again and

0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:55.800
<v Speaker 2>again and started laughing hysterically. It was and you know,

0:20:55.840 --> 0:21:00.560
<v Speaker 2>the poor family members that were in the court, and

0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.200
<v Speaker 2>to the point that his lawyer ended up telling him

0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:09.320
<v Speaker 2>to shut up. Basically, that was just pure evil, pure evil,

0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:10.320
<v Speaker 2>pure madness.

0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:15.040
<v Speaker 1>Upfront, what was he sentenced after convicted of those thirty

0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:17.040
<v Speaker 1>five murders and all the other offenses.

0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:22.560
<v Speaker 2>He was sentenced to thirty five life sentences, So here

0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:25.320
<v Speaker 2>he'll die in prison. Rotten.

0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:30.000
<v Speaker 1>How I say, I'm with you. You said you're twenty

0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.680
<v Speaker 1>six at the time, probably the biggest story you've been

0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:36.480
<v Speaker 1>involved in. And did it change your view or did

0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:39.880
<v Speaker 1>it is something shift in you after you were involved

0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:41.240
<v Speaker 1>in a story like that.

0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Yes, in that I think I think I carried it

0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:52.040
<v Speaker 2>very heavily on myself. The impact that journalists can have

0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:56.760
<v Speaker 2>when covering a story like that. Quickly a lot of

0:21:56.800 --> 0:21:59.160
<v Speaker 2>the community anger turned against us. You know, we're being

0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:02.840
<v Speaker 2>spat on in reads. And I understand and I've seen

0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:05.879
<v Speaker 2>I have seen it since that people are looking to

0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:10.520
<v Speaker 2>point their anger at somebody, and these journals are still

0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:15.000
<v Speaker 2>there asking questions. I found that really confronting and conflicting,

0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:19.800
<v Speaker 2>and you know, are we doing the right thing here? Yeah?

0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:23.080
<v Speaker 2>And again I've seen it another, you know, in other

0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:24.440
<v Speaker 2>massacres in other places.

0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:28.040
<v Speaker 1>It's an interesting conundrum, isn't it with the journalists Because

0:22:28.160 --> 0:22:30.639
<v Speaker 1>I saw a lot when I was as a police

0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:34.879
<v Speaker 1>officer in homicide, A lot of people, because I wasn't

0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:38.600
<v Speaker 1>a journalist, would often make disparaging remarks about the media.

0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:42.040
<v Speaker 1>Oh they're covering this and covering that. But it was

0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:45.240
<v Speaker 1>ironic because when they didn't cover it, people would be winging, well,

0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:49.280
<v Speaker 1>why don't they cover this crime? Because what no one's interested.

0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:53.480
<v Speaker 1>There's a real difficulty in what the role is the

0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:55.760
<v Speaker 1>media and an understanding of what the media is. But

0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:58.360
<v Speaker 1>these things have to be reported. If they're not reported,

0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:01.280
<v Speaker 1>they get swept under the carpet. What's your views on

0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:04.440
<v Speaker 1>the morality of what you do with covering stories like that?

0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:06.680
<v Speaker 2>Gary? I don't want to live in a world where

0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:09.960
<v Speaker 2>something like Port Alpha can happen and then two three

0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:12.720
<v Speaker 2>days later we all move on and forget about it.

0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:17.240
<v Speaker 2>Something of that significance needs we need to remain focused

0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:19.960
<v Speaker 2>on it. And I've seen it in America when they've

0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:23.960
<v Speaker 2>had gun violence, shocking massacres, where they quickly move on

0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:27.960
<v Speaker 2>and they don't learn the lessons. And it sounds cliche,

0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:31.560
<v Speaker 2>but we are the first draft of history, and what

0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:36.800
<v Speaker 2>we are reporting at the time often becomes historical we

0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:40.399
<v Speaker 2>look back at it, and without that then it's not

0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:45.360
<v Speaker 2>really you know, it doesn't become part of history. You're right.

0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:48.359
<v Speaker 2>The worst thing in the world is something horrific happened

0:23:48.400 --> 0:23:51.720
<v Speaker 2>and no one took any notice of it. I don't

0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:52.880
<v Speaker 2>want to live in a world like that.

0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:55.720
<v Speaker 1>No, I think it's an important role. I'm not saying

0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:58.480
<v Speaker 1>that now because I'm working in the media of journalism,

0:23:58.480 --> 0:24:01.800
<v Speaker 1>but I thought it was bad. Things are more prone

0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:05.960
<v Speaker 1>to happen when the spotlight's not put on them, and

0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:09.960
<v Speaker 1>I honestly believe you need that transparency so people understand

0:24:10.240 --> 0:24:13.920
<v Speaker 1>what's actually going on, and that evokes a reaction. The

0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:16.920
<v Speaker 1>Port Arthur massacre, if we just sort of shut that down.

0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:19.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm not saying it was the media coverage that resulted

0:24:19.400 --> 0:24:23.719
<v Speaker 1>in it, but the crackdown on firearms in Australia, that

0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:28.159
<v Speaker 1>was public outrage that made the government, and full credit

0:24:28.200 --> 0:24:31.640
<v Speaker 1>to John Howard on what he did bringing in the

0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:35.040
<v Speaker 1>bands and the gun buyback scheme. I think there was

0:24:35.160 --> 0:24:38.199
<v Speaker 1>six hundred and fifty thousand firearms turned in.

0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:42.000
<v Speaker 2>Again, what we saw out of the result, there was

0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:44.959
<v Speaker 2>some good to come out of something horrific. And again

0:24:45.000 --> 0:24:49.119
<v Speaker 2>I keep seeing what's happened in America and continues to happen.

0:24:49.160 --> 0:24:54.280
<v Speaker 2>They don't, they don't change course. There is never anything

0:24:54.320 --> 0:24:56.879
<v Speaker 2>good to come out of something so bad, and it

0:24:56.960 --> 0:25:00.800
<v Speaker 2>keeps happening and keeps repeating itself. I don't get it.

0:25:02.080 --> 0:25:05.080
<v Speaker 2>Are we always perfect in the way we handle our

0:25:05.119 --> 0:25:11.080
<v Speaker 2>coverage of massacres and people's grief. No, we're not. We're not.

0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:15.400
<v Speaker 2>We're imperfect in that respect. But by continuing to stay

0:25:15.400 --> 0:25:18.120
<v Speaker 2>focused on things that are important, we do put political

0:25:18.160 --> 0:25:22.359
<v Speaker 2>pressure on people to make changes, like John Howard did,

0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:27.400
<v Speaker 2>so there is perhaps a lesson learned or a change made.

0:25:27.800 --> 0:25:30.280
<v Speaker 1>It's a fine line because you're dealing with people that

0:25:30.359 --> 0:25:35.400
<v Speaker 1>are highly emotional understanding because of what's occurred. So it's

0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:38.600
<v Speaker 1>sort of been a no win situation. But I try

0:25:38.640 --> 0:25:40.720
<v Speaker 1>to look at it objectively, and I think that there's

0:25:40.840 --> 0:25:45.240
<v Speaker 1>better good in spotlight being put on situations rather than

0:25:45.320 --> 0:25:49.479
<v Speaker 1>just sweeping under carpet. You talked about America. Now, you

0:25:49.480 --> 0:25:53.440
<v Speaker 1>were the US correspondent for Channel seven, and you might

0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:57.359
<v Speaker 1>have forgotten the amount of mass shootings you attended. Can

0:25:57.400 --> 0:25:59.680
<v Speaker 1>you just run us through some of them and the impact.

0:26:00.320 --> 0:26:03.160
<v Speaker 1>I want to get your thoughts on what's the difference

0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:06.480
<v Speaker 1>some of the things. Every time, not every time, but

0:26:06.560 --> 0:26:08.680
<v Speaker 1>I hear of these mass shootings, I think, Okay, this

0:26:08.760 --> 0:26:11.439
<v Speaker 1>is going to be what tips America into We're going

0:26:11.480 --> 0:26:13.879
<v Speaker 1>to do something about it. But then you hear the

0:26:13.920 --> 0:26:18.359
<v Speaker 1>powerful gun lobby and different things and just the mentality

0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:21.600
<v Speaker 1>of what's over in America. First of all, tell me

0:26:21.640 --> 0:26:23.479
<v Speaker 1>about some of the ones that you've covered and the

0:26:23.480 --> 0:26:27.520
<v Speaker 1>ones that have impacted on the most in the US.

0:26:28.600 --> 0:26:32.560
<v Speaker 2>I've covered so many, and writing the book, I'd forgotten

0:26:32.560 --> 0:26:35.080
<v Speaker 2>about a lot of the ones that I had covered.

0:26:35.560 --> 0:26:39.280
<v Speaker 2>The one that stuck with me was the school massacre

0:26:39.920 --> 0:26:44.159
<v Speaker 2>of twenty six and seven year olds just outside of

0:26:44.800 --> 0:26:50.240
<v Speaker 2>New York elementary school. Gunman went in and shot dead

0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:57.719
<v Speaker 2>those children and I think eight adults as well, But

0:26:57.840 --> 0:27:02.639
<v Speaker 2>they became so many. I mean the Charleston church massacre

0:27:02.720 --> 0:27:07.760
<v Speaker 2>where the gunman prayed with the African American church goers

0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:11.159
<v Speaker 2>for an hour before turning around and massacring in them,

0:27:11.160 --> 0:27:15.440
<v Speaker 2>all except one to leave a message behind. I went

0:27:15.480 --> 0:27:21.040
<v Speaker 2>to another at a college in America where the same

0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:23.600
<v Speaker 2>number as Port Arthur which struck me, which was thirty

0:27:23.600 --> 0:27:29.800
<v Speaker 2>five dead and kids were still going to school while

0:27:29.840 --> 0:27:31.680
<v Speaker 2>in another part of the campus this guy was on

0:27:32.000 --> 0:27:35.600
<v Speaker 2>a rampage killing people. Because authorities couldn't get the message out.

0:27:37.040 --> 0:27:42.159
<v Speaker 2>It became commonplace, and it became this dreadful you know,

0:27:42.480 --> 0:27:46.320
<v Speaker 2>the Orlando nightclub massacre. I'm sitting here thinking of them

0:27:46.359 --> 0:27:49.760
<v Speaker 2>as they came, you know, the Las Vegas music festival.

0:27:49.880 --> 0:27:55.199
<v Speaker 2>I covered Norway massacre in Oslo, again, a country that

0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:59.360
<v Speaker 2>doesn't have great gun control. They just keep flooding back

0:27:59.400 --> 0:28:02.760
<v Speaker 2>to me. It just kept happening and happening, happy, and

0:28:03.000 --> 0:28:06.560
<v Speaker 2>we ended up having this awful kind of calculation about

0:28:07.119 --> 0:28:10.439
<v Speaker 2>what is worth going to now, What is going to

0:28:10.720 --> 0:28:14.679
<v Speaker 2>attract Australia's attention to these massacres. But they're coming so

0:28:14.880 --> 0:28:18.520
<v Speaker 2>often that people go, there's just another massacre in America.

0:28:18.640 --> 0:28:19.840
<v Speaker 2>That's where it got right.

0:28:19.960 --> 0:28:23.119
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So from the news point of view, is it

0:28:23.160 --> 0:28:23.679
<v Speaker 1>of interest?

0:28:24.240 --> 0:28:24.960
<v Speaker 2>What's the number?

0:28:25.080 --> 0:28:25.560
<v Speaker 1>Is it? Ten?

0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:30.320
<v Speaker 2>Fifteen, twenty? I mean that's how And I got very

0:28:30.359 --> 0:28:33.680
<v Speaker 2>angry about it because I could. I could having been

0:28:33.720 --> 0:28:36.600
<v Speaker 2>in Port Arthur and seeing what John Howard did, and

0:28:36.720 --> 0:28:39.400
<v Speaker 2>away from politics, seeing what John Howard did, and then

0:28:39.680 --> 0:28:42.720
<v Speaker 2>seeing America being and then they'd be hashtag pray for you,

0:28:43.360 --> 0:28:46.800
<v Speaker 2>pray for this city, or hashtag pray for Orlando, and

0:28:46.840 --> 0:28:49.600
<v Speaker 2>then the politicians would get up and go, now's not

0:28:49.720 --> 0:28:52.400
<v Speaker 2>the time to talk about gun control, Now is the

0:28:52.440 --> 0:28:54.560
<v Speaker 2>time to well, they just forget about it and move

0:28:54.600 --> 0:28:57.680
<v Speaker 2>on the next couple of couple of days and nothing

0:28:57.680 --> 0:29:00.959
<v Speaker 2>would happen. You know. And the kid that died in

0:29:01.000 --> 0:29:03.880
<v Speaker 2>the Sandy Hook school massacre I mentioned before, they were

0:29:03.880 --> 0:29:05.840
<v Speaker 2>the same age as my son at the time, and

0:29:06.440 --> 0:29:09.720
<v Speaker 2>it was a very affluent society. You're not dissimilar to

0:29:09.760 --> 0:29:13.040
<v Speaker 2>where I was living in California, And to me, it

0:29:13.080 --> 0:29:16.520
<v Speaker 2>was nowhere was safe. And if a country would allow

0:29:16.960 --> 0:29:19.640
<v Speaker 2>twenty six and seven year olds to be killed in

0:29:19.680 --> 0:29:22.840
<v Speaker 2>their school and not do anything about it, then what

0:29:22.920 --> 0:29:25.560
<v Speaker 2>kind of country is it? Even you had the President

0:29:25.600 --> 0:29:27.680
<v Speaker 2>of the United States, Barack Obama, come out and say

0:29:28.080 --> 0:29:31.000
<v Speaker 2>we need to do something, but America's lover of guns

0:29:31.440 --> 0:29:35.520
<v Speaker 2>is just so unexplainable and so addictive to them, and

0:29:35.560 --> 0:29:40.320
<v Speaker 2>the gun lobby there just so powerful that any politician

0:29:40.520 --> 0:29:44.600
<v Speaker 2>that tried to make significant change was voted out. I

0:29:44.640 --> 0:29:51.160
<v Speaker 2>saw it after the cinema massacre in Colorado. Some Republican

0:29:51.720 --> 0:29:54.800
<v Speaker 2>politicians tried to change the gun law and they got

0:29:54.880 --> 0:29:55.440
<v Speaker 2>voted out.

0:29:57.200 --> 0:30:00.840
<v Speaker 1>It's incomprehensible for someone that lived in a country like

0:30:00.880 --> 0:30:05.800
<v Speaker 1>Australia to understand the logic behind it. There was one

0:30:05.880 --> 0:30:07.520
<v Speaker 1>that you talked about, and I think it was a

0:30:07.560 --> 0:30:12.959
<v Speaker 1>school where thousands of kids and the shooter in this

0:30:13.000 --> 0:30:17.360
<v Speaker 1>particular one, he killed himself, but the person that sold

0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:21.080
<v Speaker 1>him the gun was arguing, well, it wouldn't have happened.

0:30:21.080 --> 0:30:24.320
<v Speaker 1>There was thirty three five hundred people that if they

0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:26.680
<v Speaker 1>are armed, that wouldn't have happened. That was the logic.

0:30:26.800 --> 0:30:31.280
<v Speaker 1>And I remember hearing headlines put the guns in schools

0:30:31.360 --> 0:30:35.600
<v Speaker 1>and these things won't happen. Like I for all intents

0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:38.440
<v Speaker 1>and purposes, you look at these people and think they're sane,

0:30:38.600 --> 0:30:40.280
<v Speaker 1>but how do they come across with that? And you

0:30:40.440 --> 0:30:45.560
<v Speaker 1>touched on the gun lobby and they understand. Politicians sadly,

0:30:45.600 --> 0:30:49.040
<v Speaker 1>are often driven about how they stay in power. They

0:30:49.120 --> 0:30:51.320
<v Speaker 1>don't want to turn against them. But I would have

0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:54.320
<v Speaker 1>thought something was done with some of those extreme ones,

0:30:54.400 --> 0:30:58.120
<v Speaker 1>especially when you talked of the kindergarten one like ho

0:30:58.280 --> 0:31:01.400
<v Speaker 1>that that touches everyone. We can't dismiss that these are

0:31:01.560 --> 0:31:04.200
<v Speaker 1>kids six and seven year olds going the kindergarten and

0:31:04.200 --> 0:31:05.320
<v Speaker 1>they're shot and killed.

0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:11.040
<v Speaker 2>And I think most fair minded Americans would agree that

0:31:11.240 --> 0:31:14.160
<v Speaker 2>you don't need weapons of war on the streets of America.

0:31:14.280 --> 0:31:17.960
<v Speaker 2>You don't need an AR fifteen that belongs, that belongs

0:31:18.080 --> 0:31:22.640
<v Speaker 2>in a war zone, that's not a hunting rifle. Their

0:31:22.680 --> 0:31:25.640
<v Speaker 2>mindset towards weapons is different to ours. You're never going

0:31:25.680 --> 0:31:28.520
<v Speaker 2>to get rid of weapons, like John Howard did. I

0:31:28.600 --> 0:31:31.360
<v Speaker 2>think most fair minded Americans would agree with that. But

0:31:31.400 --> 0:31:35.080
<v Speaker 2>the gun lobby, the NRA is powerful, even though their

0:31:35.080 --> 0:31:37.920
<v Speaker 2>membership is no one knows their membership to be honest.

0:31:37.920 --> 0:31:39.960
<v Speaker 2>It might be two million people, but two million people

0:31:40.400 --> 0:31:42.760
<v Speaker 2>are holding a country of what three hundred and fifty

0:31:42.760 --> 0:31:48.760
<v Speaker 2>million at ransom. But this notion that if you the

0:31:48.800 --> 0:31:53.000
<v Speaker 2>general public that's going to stop massacres, well it doesn't

0:31:53.040 --> 0:31:55.880
<v Speaker 2>work because they keep happening, and there are more guns

0:31:56.200 --> 0:31:59.200
<v Speaker 2>in America than anywhere else. And I used to say

0:31:59.200 --> 0:32:02.360
<v Speaker 2>that I evenue of an instance where a massacre was

0:32:02.360 --> 0:32:05.400
<v Speaker 2>stopped by somebody else who was There's since been a

0:32:05.440 --> 0:32:07.480
<v Speaker 2>couple of those, but they're very rare.

0:32:07.640 --> 0:32:11.520
<v Speaker 1>Very rare. Did you get the amount of times you

0:32:11.560 --> 0:32:14.600
<v Speaker 1>were called to those type of massacres? Did you lose

0:32:14.800 --> 0:32:17.840
<v Speaker 1>faith in humanity there? Like what happened to you there?

0:32:17.880 --> 0:32:21.120
<v Speaker 1>Like reading it when you're afar on the other side

0:32:21.120 --> 0:32:23.480
<v Speaker 1>of the world, it sort of sends a shockwave. But

0:32:23.520 --> 0:32:25.840
<v Speaker 1>you're going there, You've seeing the grief of the families,

0:32:26.280 --> 0:32:28.480
<v Speaker 1>You're seeing the pain of a community.

0:32:28.840 --> 0:32:31.560
<v Speaker 2>I was angry, and you could probably tell by my response.

0:32:31.600 --> 0:32:33.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm still angry about it. I mean, and you've got

0:32:33.480 --> 0:32:37.000
<v Speaker 2>to remember, Gary, that I was. I was part of

0:32:37.040 --> 0:32:40.240
<v Speaker 2>the community. I'm an American citizen, my wife's American, my

0:32:40.280 --> 0:32:44.200
<v Speaker 2>son's American. So I felt became this became personal to

0:32:44.280 --> 0:32:47.920
<v Speaker 2>me because this was a society that I was living

0:32:47.960 --> 0:32:50.640
<v Speaker 2>in and part of that. I could see having seen

0:32:50.760 --> 0:32:53.640
<v Speaker 2>again what happened out of Port Arthur, what could happen

0:32:53.760 --> 0:32:56.880
<v Speaker 2>and what wasn't happening, and again and again, and it's

0:32:56.880 --> 0:33:00.960
<v Speaker 2>still going on again and again. You know, communities being

0:33:01.000 --> 0:33:05.120
<v Speaker 2>torn apart, and just the outright refusal to do anything

0:33:05.160 --> 0:33:05.640
<v Speaker 2>about it.

0:33:06.000 --> 0:33:09.400
<v Speaker 1>Do you know, because you went the Oslo and that

0:33:09.560 --> 0:33:14.200
<v Speaker 1>was the shooting at a festival seventy There was two attacks,

0:33:14.200 --> 0:33:15.960
<v Speaker 1>but I think on the island where there was a

0:33:16.000 --> 0:33:20.760
<v Speaker 1>festival seventy so people killed by the offender in this

0:33:20.880 --> 0:33:23.719
<v Speaker 1>case had dressed up as a security guard or whatever

0:33:23.760 --> 0:33:26.280
<v Speaker 1>had gone over there. Did you know this a difference

0:33:26.320 --> 0:33:29.800
<v Speaker 1>in the way that nation responded as compared to America

0:33:29.840 --> 0:33:32.240
<v Speaker 1>with these type of things, or is pretty much the same.

0:33:33.920 --> 0:33:37.200
<v Speaker 2>I can't, in all honesty tell you the aftermath, the

0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:40.800
<v Speaker 2>long term aftermath of what happened, but certainly the level

0:33:40.840 --> 0:33:43.200
<v Speaker 2>of shock was greater because they had an experienced But

0:33:43.360 --> 0:33:46.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean it was I think seventy odd people, young

0:33:46.360 --> 0:33:49.800
<v Speaker 2>kids got killed. They were basically caught on an island

0:33:49.840 --> 0:33:52.160
<v Speaker 2>by this government and had nowhere where to go. He'd

0:33:52.160 --> 0:34:00.440
<v Speaker 2>also had detonated some explosive devices in downtown Oslo. The

0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:08.040
<v Speaker 2>absolute devastation really shocked me because America, you know, there's

0:34:08.040 --> 0:34:10.640
<v Speaker 2>a level of mourning that's natural. But America moved on

0:34:10.760 --> 0:34:14.319
<v Speaker 2>very quickly. Oslo Norway didn't. I can't tell you with

0:34:14.400 --> 0:34:18.640
<v Speaker 2>any certainty whether there is any gun reform out of that.

0:34:18.800 --> 0:34:24.560
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, you talked about interviewing American presidents and seeing

0:34:24.600 --> 0:34:27.160
<v Speaker 1>the elections, you would have covered a few when you

0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:30.680
<v Speaker 1>over there, just off the crime aspect, just to lighten

0:34:30.719 --> 0:34:32.920
<v Speaker 1>it up a bit. What are the elections like? Are

0:34:32.960 --> 0:34:35.399
<v Speaker 1>they as crazy as what we see over here?

0:34:36.560 --> 0:34:39.760
<v Speaker 2>I love American politics. I fell in love very quickly.

0:34:39.800 --> 0:34:44.200
<v Speaker 2>In fact, I left straight straight out of the Sydney Olympics,

0:34:45.080 --> 0:34:48.120
<v Speaker 2>and I was in America about two weeks later, and

0:34:49.360 --> 0:34:52.120
<v Speaker 2>it quickly dawned on me that there was a US

0:34:52.120 --> 0:34:55.800
<v Speaker 2>election a couple of weeks away, and I may be

0:34:55.880 --> 0:34:58.200
<v Speaker 2>in the excitement of the Olympics and going there, I

0:34:58.239 --> 0:35:02.239
<v Speaker 2>hadn't really thought about it. And I said to my boss.

0:35:02.280 --> 0:35:04.560
<v Speaker 2>I said, shit, mate, there's an election coming up in

0:35:04.600 --> 0:35:07.000
<v Speaker 2>two weeks. I know nothing about US politics. He said,

0:35:07.360 --> 0:35:09.040
<v Speaker 2>don't worry about it, mate, We'll be right. It'll be

0:35:09.040 --> 0:35:11.080
<v Speaker 2>over in a couple of days. Well that was George

0:35:11.120 --> 0:35:14.880
<v Speaker 2>Bush versus Gore. I don't know if you remember. That

0:35:14.960 --> 0:35:18.120
<v Speaker 2>was the county that was the hanging chads. So you know,

0:35:18.239 --> 0:35:21.080
<v Speaker 2>on the night and I'm sitting there Green having just

0:35:21.200 --> 0:35:23.400
<v Speaker 2>arrived from Australia, thinking of this, I'll just need to

0:35:23.400 --> 0:35:25.160
<v Speaker 2>get just need to fudge it through this night and

0:35:25.200 --> 0:35:28.360
<v Speaker 2>I'll be all right. All of a sudden, Al Gore

0:35:29.239 --> 0:35:32.360
<v Speaker 2>conceded and then took back his concession just as George

0:35:32.400 --> 0:35:35.680
<v Speaker 2>Bush was about to deliver his victory speech. And they

0:35:35.920 --> 0:35:38.480
<v Speaker 2>did the recount in Florida, and they had the hanging chads.

0:35:38.520 --> 0:35:40.319
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's people with a cross eye. They're looking

0:35:40.360 --> 0:35:42.759
<v Speaker 2>at the ballots and seeing whether it was punched through

0:35:42.880 --> 0:35:46.960
<v Speaker 2>or not. And this so much for it only lasting

0:35:46.960 --> 0:35:49.120
<v Speaker 2>a couple of days. I think it was decided by

0:35:49.160 --> 0:35:52.080
<v Speaker 2>the US Supreme Court in December. Dragged on and on

0:35:52.120 --> 0:35:57.040
<v Speaker 2>and on, but that was my initiation to US politics.

0:35:57.160 --> 0:36:01.360
<v Speaker 2>And it's just so much theater in it, the pomp

0:36:01.440 --> 0:36:06.879
<v Speaker 2>and ceremony and tradition, the conventions, the election night. I

0:36:06.920 --> 0:36:09.520
<v Speaker 2>loved it. I still love it. I'm kind of horrified

0:36:09.560 --> 0:36:11.719
<v Speaker 2>to see what's happening over there, to be honest. I

0:36:11.760 --> 0:36:15.440
<v Speaker 2>was there for the first part of Donald Trump's first term.

0:36:15.480 --> 0:36:17.799
<v Speaker 2>I covered five US elections, so I was there for

0:36:17.960 --> 0:36:21.440
<v Speaker 2>both the Bush, both of Obama, and the first one

0:36:21.480 --> 0:36:25.360
<v Speaker 2>of Trump. Yeah, I think we're in an interesting slash

0:36:25.680 --> 0:36:28.480
<v Speaker 2>dangerous period of time in American politics, so it'll be

0:36:28.480 --> 0:36:30.560
<v Speaker 2>interesting to see how we get out of it. But

0:36:30.600 --> 0:36:31.640
<v Speaker 2>I love US politics.

0:36:31.719 --> 0:36:36.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, it would be entertaining, and sometimes it goes on

0:36:37.040 --> 0:36:39.680
<v Speaker 1>here and I'm thinking of it, is this a reality

0:36:39.760 --> 0:36:43.240
<v Speaker 1>TV show? Or what am I watching? When Obama was elected,

0:36:43.320 --> 0:36:45.799
<v Speaker 1>that was a significant moment. What was the feeling like

0:36:45.840 --> 0:36:47.240
<v Speaker 1>in the country at that time.

0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:51.399
<v Speaker 2>Well, he's one of his themes was hope. You could

0:36:51.440 --> 0:36:53.880
<v Speaker 2>feel it. You could feel it was there was a

0:36:53.920 --> 0:36:57.680
<v Speaker 2>period of great hope for America that were just coming

0:36:57.719 --> 0:37:03.040
<v Speaker 2>out of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. You know,

0:37:03.600 --> 0:37:07.680
<v Speaker 2>the shocking attacks of September eleventh. Americans were beaten down,

0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:10.680
<v Speaker 2>and we remember the economy turned just as Obama came in.

0:37:11.280 --> 0:37:14.040
<v Speaker 2>So he swept on this wave of love and hope,

0:37:14.120 --> 0:37:18.239
<v Speaker 2>and you know, first African American to be elected. You know,

0:37:18.280 --> 0:37:23.000
<v Speaker 2>it's great enthusiasm, and he's such a great speaker, such

0:37:23.000 --> 0:37:26.600
<v Speaker 2>a great orator, it's hard not to get swept up

0:37:26.600 --> 0:37:30.400
<v Speaker 2>in that, regardless of his politics. Now, it seems that

0:37:30.480 --> 0:37:33.440
<v Speaker 2>politics has been taken over by hate and division, no

0:37:33.480 --> 0:37:36.719
<v Speaker 2>matter what side you're on, you know, and it's kind

0:37:36.719 --> 0:37:38.040
<v Speaker 2>of creeping in here as well.

0:37:38.160 --> 0:37:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's no unity.

0:37:40.760 --> 0:37:43.959
<v Speaker 2>You can't disagree with somebody, you know, if you don't

0:37:44.000 --> 0:37:46.239
<v Speaker 2>have the same belief as me, you're a dickhead or

0:37:46.560 --> 0:37:49.400
<v Speaker 2>a dumbass. That's not the way. We all have the

0:37:49.480 --> 0:37:54.120
<v Speaker 2>right to have a different opinion. And name calling or worse,

0:37:54.280 --> 0:37:57.799
<v Speaker 2>political violences, there's just no, there's no place for it.

0:37:57.880 --> 0:38:01.880
<v Speaker 1>There's a real adversarial approach, yes, combative, and it doesn't

0:38:01.880 --> 0:38:03.120
<v Speaker 1>seem to serve anyone.

0:38:03.239 --> 0:38:06.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, no, in America. What I loved about America because

0:38:06.600 --> 0:38:09.360
<v Speaker 2>we always talk don't talk about politics, you know, religion.

0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:13.680
<v Speaker 2>That's not the same. In America. You would have a

0:38:13.719 --> 0:38:17.120
<v Speaker 2>debate like debating a football team, you know, and it

0:38:17.120 --> 0:38:22.120
<v Speaker 2>would be generally well taken, but a dangerous conversation to have.

0:38:22.200 --> 0:38:26.520
<v Speaker 1>Now, Hey, guys, it's Gary jubilin here. Want to get

0:38:26.560 --> 0:38:28.960
<v Speaker 1>more out of I Catch Killers, then you should head

0:38:29.000 --> 0:38:32.400
<v Speaker 1>over to our new video feed on Spotify where you

0:38:32.440 --> 0:38:36.080
<v Speaker 1>can watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search

0:38:36.320 --> 0:38:39.480
<v Speaker 1>for I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and

0:38:39.520 --> 0:38:40.280
<v Speaker 1>start watching.

0:38:40.320 --> 0:38:40.680
<v Speaker 2>Today.

0:38:41.920 --> 0:38:45.919
<v Speaker 1>You're in New York for September eleventh, and yeah, that's

0:38:46.040 --> 0:38:48.799
<v Speaker 1>life changing for everyone. That doesn't mean you have to

0:38:48.840 --> 0:38:51.160
<v Speaker 1>be there at the time. Every on the world changed

0:38:51.200 --> 0:38:53.600
<v Speaker 1>from that moment. You're actually in New York and I

0:38:53.600 --> 0:38:57.000
<v Speaker 1>think you're about to leave, and the first Tower was

0:38:57.080 --> 0:38:59.680
<v Speaker 1>hit by a plane talk us through the events of

0:38:59.719 --> 0:39:00.520
<v Speaker 1>that Todd.

0:39:01.440 --> 0:39:04.560
<v Speaker 2>We said, at the start, I accidentally found myself in

0:39:04.840 --> 0:39:07.040
<v Speaker 2>major stories, and that was the biggest of them. I'd

0:39:07.080 --> 0:39:10.120
<v Speaker 2>been there covering Leighton Hewitt had won the US Open

0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:14.800
<v Speaker 2>tennis that weekend as a twenty year old. We are

0:39:15.400 --> 0:39:17.239
<v Speaker 2>been following around it. To be honest, he was a

0:39:17.280 --> 0:39:20.600
<v Speaker 2>little difficult to follow around. So he left and we

0:39:20.640 --> 0:39:24.480
<v Speaker 2>all went out and celebrated that night. Next morning, I

0:39:24.520 --> 0:39:27.040
<v Speaker 2>woke up, I was pretty dusty, and we're heading to

0:39:27.080 --> 0:39:32.680
<v Speaker 2>the airport and this driver picked us up and he

0:39:32.960 --> 0:39:35.440
<v Speaker 2>was Israeli and he thought we were tourists, and so

0:39:35.520 --> 0:39:38.560
<v Speaker 2>he was giving us a tour as we were leaving,

0:39:39.640 --> 0:39:42.280
<v Speaker 2>not the typical grumpy New York taxi driver. And he said,

0:39:42.880 --> 0:39:46.280
<v Speaker 2>we're driving down and he said, that's the Israeli consulate,

0:39:46.320 --> 0:39:48.759
<v Speaker 2>and there's always a police car there guarding it. And

0:39:48.920 --> 0:39:51.680
<v Speaker 2>almost on que the police guard lit up its lights

0:39:51.960 --> 0:39:55.400
<v Speaker 2>and tore off, and he goes, that's unusual. And the

0:39:55.600 --> 0:39:58.240
<v Speaker 2>next left turn down into the one of the tunnels

0:39:58.280 --> 0:40:02.440
<v Speaker 2>leading out of Manhattan, and we're in the traffic for

0:40:02.480 --> 0:40:05.279
<v Speaker 2>a little while. Emerged at the other side and the

0:40:05.320 --> 0:40:11.240
<v Speaker 2>world had changed almost immediately. You could see every emergency vehicle,

0:40:12.120 --> 0:40:15.840
<v Speaker 2>fire brigade, ambulance, police card just pouring back into the

0:40:15.840 --> 0:40:20.200
<v Speaker 2>tunnel going into Manhattan. And my phone started rattling off

0:40:20.239 --> 0:40:22.880
<v Speaker 2>with messages. Remember we had flip phones, so they're pretty basic,

0:40:23.360 --> 0:40:25.920
<v Speaker 2>and I was trying to go through them. Got a

0:40:25.960 --> 0:40:30.400
<v Speaker 2>call and it was someone from the newsroom. It was

0:40:30.440 --> 0:40:34.040
<v Speaker 2>late at night in Sydney. This plane is just hit

0:40:34.080 --> 0:40:36.640
<v Speaker 2>the World Trades and I'm like, that can't be true.

0:40:36.640 --> 0:40:40.160
<v Speaker 2>It was beautiful, blue sky, it was a beautiful day.

0:40:40.840 --> 0:40:44.480
<v Speaker 2>Look through the taxi window and almost frame perfectly is

0:40:44.520 --> 0:40:47.400
<v Speaker 2>the first tower on fire, big hole and it just

0:40:47.440 --> 0:40:54.920
<v Speaker 2>been hit. I I didn't know what was going on.

0:40:55.480 --> 0:41:00.480
<v Speaker 2>Our taxi driver started wailing and banging the wheel of

0:41:00.520 --> 0:41:02.719
<v Speaker 2>the cut cab, saying, they've got us here, they've got

0:41:02.760 --> 0:41:07.719
<v Speaker 2>us here, obviously referring to terrorism might come down. We

0:41:07.760 --> 0:41:10.560
<v Speaker 2>need to go back the other way, and we were

0:41:10.600 --> 0:41:14.040
<v Speaker 2>going to do a phone interview back to the Sydney studio,

0:41:15.160 --> 0:41:20.280
<v Speaker 2>and I heard a cry in the studio come out

0:41:20.560 --> 0:41:23.120
<v Speaker 2>and it was the moment the second plane had hit,

0:41:23.480 --> 0:41:26.520
<v Speaker 2>and sure enough I could see it through the back

0:41:26.560 --> 0:41:28.520
<v Speaker 2>of the taxi window. So we were trying to get

0:41:28.600 --> 0:41:31.400
<v Speaker 2>back into Manhattan. They were closing all the bridges and tunnels,

0:41:31.920 --> 0:41:34.319
<v Speaker 2>fearing that this was the start of something bigger, which

0:41:34.360 --> 0:41:38.759
<v Speaker 2>it was. And we eventually got back through Harlem. If

0:41:38.800 --> 0:41:42.680
<v Speaker 2>anyone knows, Manhattan's kind of the top northern part. So

0:41:42.680 --> 0:41:44.879
<v Speaker 2>we had to drive all the way back. And as

0:41:44.920 --> 0:41:47.319
<v Speaker 2>we and we were listening on the radio. We were

0:41:47.400 --> 0:41:50.000
<v Speaker 2>listening to you know, there's a plane gone into the Pentagon,

0:41:50.000 --> 0:41:52.360
<v Speaker 2>a plane gone down in Pennsylvania, another one going towards

0:41:52.600 --> 0:41:54.839
<v Speaker 2>the White House. There was a car bomb exploded at

0:41:54.880 --> 0:41:58.360
<v Speaker 2>the US Supreme Court. Some of it wasn't true, but

0:41:58.400 --> 0:42:00.799
<v Speaker 2>too much of it was. But it was like I

0:42:00.800 --> 0:42:02.680
<v Speaker 2>always say, it's like War of the World, you know,

0:42:02.719 --> 0:42:06.200
<v Speaker 2>the radio show in the maintain. Yeah, and everyone thought

0:42:06.200 --> 0:42:08.279
<v Speaker 2>it was true. Well, this this was like that, and

0:42:09.080 --> 0:42:13.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, my head's spinning. I think I quickly forgot

0:42:13.239 --> 0:42:17.839
<v Speaker 2>my hangover. We didn't. I didn't see the towels come down,

0:42:17.920 --> 0:42:21.760
<v Speaker 2>but we got there just after they came down, and

0:42:21.800 --> 0:42:24.080
<v Speaker 2>we're listening to it on the radio, and you could

0:42:24.080 --> 0:42:27.960
<v Speaker 2>see people starting to emerge on the streets, just covered

0:42:28.000 --> 0:42:32.880
<v Speaker 2>caked in gray dust, horrified, just just sheer terror on

0:42:32.920 --> 0:42:38.520
<v Speaker 2>their face. Yeah, we went in and we spent three

0:42:38.600 --> 0:42:42.360
<v Speaker 2>or four nights sleeping in the streets of Lower Manhattan

0:42:42.360 --> 0:42:45.239
<v Speaker 2>because the police had cooded it off, so if you left,

0:42:45.280 --> 0:42:47.000
<v Speaker 2>you weren't going to get back in. So we had

0:42:47.000 --> 0:42:50.239
<v Speaker 2>to slept in a Cameron's car the first night, in

0:42:50.320 --> 0:42:53.720
<v Speaker 2>the alcove of a building, the second on the floor

0:42:53.760 --> 0:42:56.879
<v Speaker 2>of a satellite truck the third and yeah, the world

0:42:56.960 --> 0:43:02.800
<v Speaker 2>had changed, and you know, I was my head was spinning.

0:43:03.440 --> 0:43:06.640
<v Speaker 2>I was overwhelmed by it. I was at the scene,

0:43:06.840 --> 0:43:10.360
<v Speaker 2>found myself boy friend Bendigo, at the scene of certainly

0:43:10.400 --> 0:43:13.120
<v Speaker 2>the biggest story of my career and perhaps my lifetime.

0:43:13.360 --> 0:43:16.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and how like I would imagine the logistical side

0:43:16.719 --> 0:43:20.279
<v Speaker 1>of even filing your stories must have been. You're saying

0:43:20.320 --> 0:43:23.240
<v Speaker 1>you're sleeping on the floor of a van, and different things,

0:43:23.400 --> 0:43:26.399
<v Speaker 1>the chaos that would u surrounded what went on.

0:43:27.520 --> 0:43:32.560
<v Speaker 2>And again, primitive mobile phones. The mobile phone towers were

0:43:32.560 --> 0:43:35.480
<v Speaker 2>on top of the World Trade centers, so mobile phones

0:43:35.480 --> 0:43:41.600
<v Speaker 2>were not working. We had to rely upon satellite trucks

0:43:41.640 --> 0:43:47.200
<v Speaker 2>to get our material out. The Americans would promise we'd

0:43:47.239 --> 0:43:49.200
<v Speaker 2>sit next to a satellite truck hoping to get ten

0:43:49.360 --> 0:43:52.160
<v Speaker 2>twenty minutes out of the airtime out of the satellite

0:43:52.200 --> 0:43:54.200
<v Speaker 2>truck and we kept getting bumped because they were going

0:43:54.239 --> 0:43:56.239
<v Speaker 2>wall to wall to wall to wall. These were the

0:43:56.280 --> 0:44:00.000
<v Speaker 2>logistical challenges that we kept facing being able to talk

0:44:00.200 --> 0:44:02.719
<v Speaker 2>to Sydney. I didn't even see the vision of the

0:44:02.760 --> 0:44:08.279
<v Speaker 2>towels come down because I was in the street. We

0:44:08.320 --> 0:44:12.040
<v Speaker 2>saw the firefighters emerge after the towers come down, just

0:44:12.160 --> 0:44:17.560
<v Speaker 2>again caked in dust, and my phone for some reason

0:44:17.719 --> 0:44:19.920
<v Speaker 2>came to life for a couple of minutes and he

0:44:20.480 --> 0:44:23.120
<v Speaker 2>one of the firefighters said can I use it? I

0:44:23.120 --> 0:44:26.640
<v Speaker 2>said sure, and I guess I was eavesdropping, but he

0:44:27.520 --> 0:44:30.480
<v Speaker 2>phoned a loved one and started crying and said, you know,

0:44:30.719 --> 0:44:32.759
<v Speaker 2>I've lost so many mates. I'm alive, but I've got

0:44:32.960 --> 0:44:37.040
<v Speaker 2>so many friends and hung up and went back in.

0:44:37.120 --> 0:44:41.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean, those guys were incredibly brave. But yeah, I

0:44:41.280 --> 0:44:45.120
<v Speaker 2>think as a journalist, you go into journalism mode. You

0:44:45.239 --> 0:44:48.520
<v Speaker 2>try to just kick into well, I've got to I've

0:44:48.520 --> 0:44:52.720
<v Speaker 2>got to cover this. Yeah, I'm overwhelmed by it, scared

0:44:52.800 --> 0:44:56.080
<v Speaker 2>even but I've got to do this. I've got to

0:44:56.600 --> 0:44:59.160
<v Speaker 2>get this story. I've got to try to go live.

0:45:00.560 --> 0:45:03.640
<v Speaker 2>We think we were the first Australian TV network to

0:45:03.719 --> 0:45:07.200
<v Speaker 2>go live from the scene and one of the challenges,

0:45:07.239 --> 0:45:12.080
<v Speaker 2>especially early on being a foreign correspondence, is the logistics.

0:45:12.120 --> 0:45:19.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, food, cars, petrol, power. Covering the story is

0:45:20.000 --> 0:45:21.880
<v Speaker 2>just part of the part of the challenge.

0:45:22.120 --> 0:45:24.440
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting what you say there might that you go

0:45:24.560 --> 0:45:28.239
<v Speaker 1>into journalists mode when it's happening. I understand that, and

0:45:28.280 --> 0:45:30.200
<v Speaker 1>I think that's the way a lot of us got

0:45:30.239 --> 0:45:35.680
<v Speaker 1>through homicide work. That you're a horrendous scene. But people

0:45:35.719 --> 0:45:38.640
<v Speaker 1>would say, well, how did you feel when you're actually working.

0:45:38.719 --> 0:45:41.040
<v Speaker 1>You don't have time to process how you feel. Like

0:45:41.120 --> 0:45:44.319
<v Speaker 1>when your job at a crime scene was making sure

0:45:44.360 --> 0:45:46.840
<v Speaker 1>we catch a person that's done this. So that was

0:45:46.880 --> 0:45:50.360
<v Speaker 1>my focus, and I would imagine in your situation that

0:45:50.400 --> 0:45:53.040
<v Speaker 1>would be very much the same. My job here is

0:45:53.080 --> 0:45:55.880
<v Speaker 1>to cover this. That's what I'm focusing on, and you

0:45:55.920 --> 0:45:58.279
<v Speaker 1>don't get time to sort of step away until you've

0:45:58.320 --> 0:46:02.000
<v Speaker 1>finished your job. Did you did it hit you at

0:46:02.040 --> 0:46:04.120
<v Speaker 1>some point in time? You said, four days you're on

0:46:04.480 --> 0:46:07.240
<v Speaker 1>the ground. Did you ever have time to just reflect

0:46:07.280 --> 0:46:09.359
<v Speaker 1>what you had seen and been involved in.

0:46:09.960 --> 0:46:13.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we were on the ground for three or four weeks,

0:46:13.080 --> 0:46:16.160
<v Speaker 2>but camped in the streets for three or four days

0:46:16.160 --> 0:46:19.160
<v Speaker 2>before we were able to get accommodation. Yeah, There was

0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:22.959
<v Speaker 2>one point a few days in where people started coming

0:46:23.040 --> 0:46:26.000
<v Speaker 2>up to us, and initially it was just a couple

0:46:26.040 --> 0:46:28.560
<v Speaker 2>of people with a photo have you seen this person?

0:46:28.600 --> 0:46:32.640
<v Speaker 2>And initially I'm like, why are you asking me? You know,

0:46:32.680 --> 0:46:34.479
<v Speaker 2>and it kind of didn't dawn on me, It didn't,

0:46:34.640 --> 0:46:36.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, what was going on. And then then it

0:46:36.760 --> 0:46:39.560
<v Speaker 2>became a flood of people, dozens of people coming up

0:46:39.640 --> 0:46:41.799
<v Speaker 2>to us with photos of loved ones. So just so

0:46:42.040 --> 0:46:46.920
<v Speaker 2>desperate to find people, their loved ones who disappeared in

0:46:46.960 --> 0:46:50.520
<v Speaker 2>the World Trade Center, that they'd come to journos you know,

0:46:51.480 --> 0:46:54.600
<v Speaker 2>have you seen them? You know, I mean it was inconceivable,

0:46:54.640 --> 0:46:56.960
<v Speaker 2>but to them, they were so desperate. And then I

0:46:57.080 --> 0:47:00.640
<v Speaker 2>just kind of, you know, it kind of hit me, like, wow,

0:47:00.760 --> 0:47:05.200
<v Speaker 2>these poor people have They've got nothing, They've just disappeared.

0:47:06.400 --> 0:47:09.320
<v Speaker 2>They didn't pull anybody out of there. They had gurney's

0:47:09.360 --> 0:47:13.279
<v Speaker 2>waiting at hospitals. And the other thing Gary that also

0:47:13.360 --> 0:47:15.239
<v Speaker 2>hit me, and I still struggle with it when I

0:47:15.280 --> 0:47:20.400
<v Speaker 2>see documentaries, is the chirping. The firefighters wore alarms, personal

0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:24.320
<v Speaker 2>alarms so to help them be found in the case

0:47:24.520 --> 0:47:28.960
<v Speaker 2>of something happening, and all through those first certainly the

0:47:28.960 --> 0:47:30.840
<v Speaker 2>first night, maybe the first couple of nights, all you

0:47:30.880 --> 0:47:34.120
<v Speaker 2>could hear was the chirping from the World Trade Center ruined.

0:47:34.480 --> 0:47:39.120
<v Speaker 2>It was those personal fire alarm going off. They if

0:47:39.160 --> 0:47:42.440
<v Speaker 2>they found anything, it wasn't. They weren't pulling out bodies,

0:47:42.480 --> 0:47:45.000
<v Speaker 2>that was. You know, these just kept going off until

0:47:45.000 --> 0:47:46.040
<v Speaker 2>the batteries ran out.

0:47:47.600 --> 0:47:51.600
<v Speaker 1>Horrendous And it changed the world too, didn't It changed

0:47:51.800 --> 0:47:55.320
<v Speaker 1>a lot about your world. You would have found yourself

0:47:55.360 --> 0:47:58.520
<v Speaker 1>in different places because of that particular day.

0:47:59.320 --> 0:48:03.959
<v Speaker 2>It dictated the next decade or more of what we did.

0:48:04.000 --> 0:48:07.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, we went into two World War two wars,

0:48:07.360 --> 0:48:12.000
<v Speaker 2>rather one of which you know, didn't finish until after

0:48:12.040 --> 0:48:16.799
<v Speaker 2>I left the US. There were terrorist attacks that's kind

0:48:16.840 --> 0:48:20.000
<v Speaker 2>of spawned out of it, even in Sydney. I went

0:48:20.040 --> 0:48:23.480
<v Speaker 2>to cover them. In Paris and other parts of America.

0:48:23.960 --> 0:48:27.359
<v Speaker 2>You know, I think people who perhaps not old enough

0:48:27.400 --> 0:48:29.960
<v Speaker 2>to remember the differences. It was kind of one of

0:48:30.000 --> 0:48:33.320
<v Speaker 2>those moments before nine to eleven and after nine eleven

0:48:34.040 --> 0:48:37.440
<v Speaker 2>it's certainly changed, and even you know, predominantly in America

0:48:37.800 --> 0:48:39.200
<v Speaker 2>they went into deep mourning.

0:48:39.920 --> 0:48:42.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, it certainly must have had an impact when

0:48:43.200 --> 0:48:46.920
<v Speaker 1>you see and at the time, and that's interesting you

0:48:46.960 --> 0:48:49.680
<v Speaker 1>say that with all the reports. If you're under attack

0:48:49.800 --> 0:48:51.400
<v Speaker 1>and you didn't know when it was going to end,

0:48:52.440 --> 0:48:54.480
<v Speaker 1>reference war of the world, So I understand what you're

0:48:54.520 --> 0:48:57.440
<v Speaker 1>saying there. It would have been a surreal situation.

0:48:57.960 --> 0:49:01.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, they shut down the the air space really quickly,

0:49:01.440 --> 0:49:06.200
<v Speaker 2>but a couple of times passenger planes flew over, obviously

0:49:06.239 --> 0:49:08.799
<v Speaker 2>going being told they had to land again, and everyone's like,

0:49:09.360 --> 0:49:12.799
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's just another one. Yeah. And and that

0:49:12.880 --> 0:49:16.520
<v Speaker 2>first flight when I eventually I went down to Washington

0:49:17.320 --> 0:49:20.000
<v Speaker 2>a few weeks after because George Bush made an addressed

0:49:20.040 --> 0:49:25.400
<v Speaker 2>to Congress, and that flight home was a nerve wracking flight,

0:49:25.600 --> 0:49:29.399
<v Speaker 2>you know, and all those security measures they brought in

0:49:30.360 --> 0:49:35.600
<v Speaker 2>take you two hours to get through security in American airports. Yeah,

0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:37.400
<v Speaker 2>it changed remarkably.

0:49:38.960 --> 0:49:42.200
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, these are some of the heavy things

0:49:42.239 --> 0:49:44.759
<v Speaker 1>you've you've done. I'm going to lighten it up a

0:49:44.760 --> 0:49:47.799
<v Speaker 1>little bit before we take a break for the part one.

0:49:47.920 --> 0:49:51.920
<v Speaker 1>But why were you wrestling wild anacondas.

0:49:53.640 --> 0:49:56.640
<v Speaker 2>Well? Ana Condas?

0:49:56.680 --> 0:50:00.000
<v Speaker 1>I've seen the movie a documentary.

0:50:01.680 --> 0:50:04.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh what happened? This thing had a head on it

0:50:04.120 --> 0:50:07.080
<v Speaker 2>like this, Yeah, it was it was I think it

0:50:07.120 --> 0:50:11.680
<v Speaker 2>was twenty feet long and thick. And so this was

0:50:11.719 --> 0:50:15.040
<v Speaker 2>a guy that was picking up these anacondas and people's

0:50:15.040 --> 0:50:18.240
<v Speaker 2>swimming pools. So it was in the Everglades. The story,

0:50:18.280 --> 0:50:20.160
<v Speaker 2>the folk lore, and I don't know how true it

0:50:20.280 --> 0:50:24.040
<v Speaker 2>was that a breeder had anacondas during one of the

0:50:24.120 --> 0:50:30.000
<v Speaker 2>hurricanes in Florida and it hid his house, destroyed his

0:50:30.040 --> 0:50:34.319
<v Speaker 2>collection of anacondas. They all escaped into the Everglades and

0:50:34.440 --> 0:50:37.600
<v Speaker 2>they started breeding so big that they would they would

0:50:37.600 --> 0:50:42.560
<v Speaker 2>eat the alligators, and it became started becoming a huge

0:50:42.600 --> 0:50:46.520
<v Speaker 2>problem down there, probably still is. So I love the

0:50:46.520 --> 0:50:50.879
<v Speaker 2>thought of going on air boats and seeing alligators and

0:50:51.239 --> 0:50:53.200
<v Speaker 2>trying to fight. We didn't see one in the while,

0:50:53.280 --> 0:50:55.000
<v Speaker 2>but we found this guy that was collecting it, and

0:50:55.040 --> 0:51:01.160
<v Speaker 2>he encouraged us to pick this bloody thing up. A

0:51:01.200 --> 0:51:05.000
<v Speaker 2>couple of times in my life that I was scared

0:51:05.040 --> 0:51:06.440
<v Speaker 2>that was one of them. This thing would have.

0:51:06.480 --> 0:51:10.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I've handled snakes and I know how strong they feel,

0:51:10.800 --> 0:51:14.960
<v Speaker 1>just the small snakes. So it's just pure muscle.

0:51:15.400 --> 0:51:18.279
<v Speaker 2>Just yeah, it wrapped around my arm and they're like,

0:51:18.320 --> 0:51:23.239
<v Speaker 2>oh my, you can get him off now. Yeah.

0:51:23.280 --> 0:51:26.719
<v Speaker 1>Well see some of the amazing experiences did I I

0:51:26.760 --> 0:51:30.440
<v Speaker 1>think it was in your book writing around the Pyramids

0:51:30.440 --> 0:51:31.120
<v Speaker 1>at some stage.

0:51:31.320 --> 0:51:33.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was after we came back from Libya, so

0:51:33.920 --> 0:51:37.160
<v Speaker 2>we'd had three weeks I think in Libya covering the

0:51:37.200 --> 0:51:42.160
<v Speaker 2>war there, and it was after the uprising in Egypt,

0:51:42.560 --> 0:51:45.160
<v Speaker 2>so there were no tourists there. OK, it was still

0:51:45.280 --> 0:51:48.720
<v Speaker 2>very tense there. I know you've spoken Peter Grestor before,

0:51:48.920 --> 0:51:53.960
<v Speaker 2>so and John and my camera and I maybe one

0:51:54.000 --> 0:51:57.640
<v Speaker 2>of maybe half a dozen tourists, and we got we're

0:51:57.680 --> 0:52:01.160
<v Speaker 2>able to get a camera ride around the the pyramids

0:52:01.200 --> 0:52:05.360
<v Speaker 2>and virtually just us, which is unheard of because you

0:52:05.400 --> 0:52:07.960
<v Speaker 2>go there now will be thousands and thousands and thousands

0:52:08.000 --> 0:52:08.480
<v Speaker 2>of people.

0:52:09.080 --> 0:52:12.080
<v Speaker 1>What an experience. These are the things that balance it out,

0:52:12.400 --> 0:52:13.319
<v Speaker 1>isn't it. Yeah? It is.

0:52:13.440 --> 0:52:16.840
<v Speaker 2>We took some time sometimes we didn't always blow in

0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:19.200
<v Speaker 2>and blow out. Sometimes you take a day just to

0:52:19.880 --> 0:52:21.880
<v Speaker 2>enjoy where you're at. That was one of those times.

0:52:22.080 --> 0:52:25.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, now, and I do. I've seen and I've been

0:52:25.640 --> 0:52:27.880
<v Speaker 1>involved in the industry enough to see how hard you

0:52:27.960 --> 0:52:30.920
<v Speaker 1>work when it's on. And I've been away with film crews,

0:52:30.960 --> 0:52:33.759
<v Speaker 1>and I thought we pushed hard in the Cops, and

0:52:33.840 --> 0:52:37.640
<v Speaker 1>we did, but I was always impressed by you know,

0:52:37.719 --> 0:52:39.799
<v Speaker 1>you could be going for twenty hours, forget the meal.

0:52:39.800 --> 0:52:41.279
<v Speaker 1>We've got to get this shot. We've got to do

0:52:41.360 --> 0:52:44.360
<v Speaker 1>this so that you do do work when it's on.

0:52:45.080 --> 0:52:47.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean in case of you flying to Libya.

0:52:48.440 --> 0:52:51.399
<v Speaker 2>We flew into Egypt, jumped in a car and drove

0:52:51.480 --> 0:52:57.480
<v Speaker 2>straight into Libya. We were asleep because we're still jet lagged.

0:52:57.920 --> 0:53:01.280
<v Speaker 2>And you just go twenty hours our days, doesn't matter.

0:53:01.880 --> 0:53:03.440
<v Speaker 2>You get the job done.

0:53:04.440 --> 0:53:06.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's have a break and when we come back,

0:53:06.440 --> 0:53:09.399
<v Speaker 1>we're going to talk about There's one that you work

0:53:09.560 --> 0:53:12.880
<v Speaker 1>very closely on and it was covered over here, but

0:53:13.000 --> 0:53:16.600
<v Speaker 1>that was the senseless murder of Chris Lane, the young

0:53:16.640 --> 0:53:19.960
<v Speaker 1>aussy guy that was over there on a baseball scholarship.

0:53:20.280 --> 0:53:24.839
<v Speaker 1>Hurricane Katrina and the aftermath of that and what you

0:53:24.880 --> 0:53:29.680
<v Speaker 1>saw in there, David Hicks in Guadamart Bay. I think

0:53:29.719 --> 0:53:32.879
<v Speaker 1>that's interesting that you've been there and so a whole

0:53:33.000 --> 0:53:35.000
<v Speaker 1>range of things. And I'm sure I've got a couple

0:53:35.000 --> 0:53:36.719
<v Speaker 1>of other little things I might pull out here and

0:53:37.480 --> 0:53:39.600
<v Speaker 1>I can have a chat. But let's let's do that

0:53:39.680 --> 0:53:40.560
<v Speaker 1>in part two.

0:53:41.000 --> 0:53:42.040
<v Speaker 2>Cheers, Cheers,