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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life. The average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes in the contact with crime is

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Speaker 1: left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into

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Speaker 1: this world. Today, I had a fascinating chat with Mike Amore.

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Speaker 1: Mike was a foreign correspondent for eighten years and in

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Speaker 1: that role witness some of the worst moments in recent

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Speaker 1: world history. And we talked about those moments today in

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Speaker 1: New York when the planes hit the World Trade Center

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Speaker 1: during the September eleventh terrorist attack, reporting from scenes of

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Speaker 1: countless mass shootings in America and even Australia's own port

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Speaker 1: Arthur massacre. He takes us on the ground following Hurricane

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Speaker 1: Katrina and the aftermath when the people of New Orleans

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Speaker 1: seem to be forgotten by their own country. We also

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Speaker 1: discuss the Haiti earthquake and what it was like being

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Speaker 1: involved in the rescue of an infant child who was

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Speaker 1: trapped in the rubble with the dead parents for up

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Speaker 1: to four days. Mike has had countless stories and adventures,

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Speaker 1: and he talks about them today. Some are shocking, others

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Speaker 1: are remarkable. But what I got from the conversation more

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Speaker 1: than the stories, was an understanding of the importance of accurate,

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Speaker 1: timely reporting and the personal cost of witnessing these events.

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Speaker 1: Let's have a listen, Mike Amore, Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Oh it's a pleasure. Thank you. Gary.

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Speaker 1: Well, as I was saying the other day, I was

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Speaker 1: walking through the airport waiting for my flight, and I

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Speaker 1: found myself where I usually do at an airport, in

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Speaker 1: the bookstore, and news cowboys jumped out at me. Your

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Speaker 1: book and I picked that up, and I was hooked

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Speaker 1: right from the start. But let you in on a

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Speaker 1: little secret. My fantasy is if I ever came back

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Speaker 1: to this world, i'd be a foreign correspondent. I think

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Speaker 1: that stems from watching George Nigas back in the sixty

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Speaker 1: minutes stays on the back of a jeep going through

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Speaker 1: the war zones with a scarf around his neck, that

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Speaker 1: type of thing, but fascinating life, the life of a

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Speaker 1: foreign correspondent.

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Speaker 2: Well, I've been very lucky. Gary. I don't think I've

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Speaker 2: ever been as charismatic as George was, but yeah, I

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Speaker 2: too grew up watching him, and I think that was

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Speaker 2: part of the spur to being wanting to be a

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Speaker 2: foreign correspondent. For me. That's the tip of the sword

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Speaker 2: as far as journalism is concerned. It's what I always

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Speaker 2: wanted to do, and I'm so grateful that I had

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Speaker 2: the opportunity for eighteen years.

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Speaker 1: It's a long time, and I think we've journalists by nature,

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Speaker 1: they're curious and then ares a foreign correspondent. You find

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Speaker 1: yourself in some of the most history making situations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and sometimes by accident. Sometimes you don't mean to

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Speaker 2: be there. Case in Points September eleven. You know, I'm

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Speaker 2: a boyfriend Bendigo. So I've traveled to I've forgotten how

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Speaker 2: many countries, sixty plus countries around the world, and I've

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Speaker 2: seen places that most people don't get to see, in

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Speaker 2: circumstances that most people don't want to see. So I'm

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Speaker 2: grateful for that.

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Speaker 1: How did you find yourself as a journalist? First of all,

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Speaker 1: they didn't just say, hey, pluck you from the street

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Speaker 1: and we want you as a foreign correspondent. How did

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Speaker 1: you get into journalism and then the work that you

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Speaker 1: did as a foreign correspondent.

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Speaker 2: I think if my old English teacher tuned into this,

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Speaker 2: if they're still alive, be saying that bloke is the

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Speaker 2: last guy that we thought would be a journalist and

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Speaker 2: b write a book about journalism. I almost failed Year

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Speaker 2: twelve English. I sucked in Year twelve. I almost failed

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Speaker 2: Year twelve completely. But my father was a newspaper printer

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Speaker 2: for all of his career forty years at the local

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Speaker 2: Bendigo Advertiser. So I'm the original Nepo baby. Nepotism ruled

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Speaker 2: for me. I played that card and Dad got me

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Speaker 2: in and I was able to become a copy person

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Speaker 2: at the Bendigo Advertiser, the local paper, which was kind

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Speaker 2: of part of the family for me because Dad had

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Speaker 2: been there for so long. So the person out the

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Speaker 2: back was not Bob the compositor. He was Uncle Bob.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, nepotism. I had no right to be a journalist.

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Speaker 1: We'll use it if you can.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, exactly. It doesn't matter how you get in,

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Speaker 2: I tell my son, doesn't matter how you get in, son,

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Speaker 2: it's what you do when you get there, get the

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Speaker 2: foot in the door to start with me, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So you started out the print journalism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was a great foundation, and it was,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's a unity paper, very proud paper, the

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Speaker 2: Benigo Advertiser, Goldfield's paper, and it was chock full of

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Speaker 2: very experienced journalists that had come back from metropolitan newspapers

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Speaker 2: for a quieter life. But with them they brought this

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Speaker 2: wealth of experience. So cranky, big drinking, very you know,

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Speaker 2: they'd start the day off kind of grumpy and my job,

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Speaker 2: my first job was to deliver them coffees to them

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Speaker 2: and I'd kind of took me a while to work

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Speaker 2: out while they were grumpy in the morning and then

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Speaker 2: very charismatic in the afternoon. And it quickly dawned on

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Speaker 2: me that they were tipping in a couple of additives

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Speaker 2: to my horrible coffee.

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Speaker 1: Right, your coffee was just a cover.

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Speaker 2: It was definitely a cover. And back in those days,

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Speaker 2: you know, about four o'clock the smoke would start hanging

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Speaker 2: off the ceiling and it was a very colorful day,

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Speaker 2: a colorful period of journalism. Perhaps that last generation of

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Speaker 2: those colorful journals that were really heavy drinkers. They'd go

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Speaker 2: down to the pub and I'd watch in aw as

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Speaker 2: they down twelve pots. But they are very good at

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Speaker 2: what they did, and they were hard task masters. They

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Speaker 2: taught me the foundations of journalism and that's stuck with me.

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Speaker 2: So I was very lucky.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a skill set that practical on the job

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Speaker 1: learning that you get and starting at the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the run and working your way through. At first you

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Speaker 1: might appreciate it, but when you look back now, it

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Speaker 1: is the grounding that helps you throughout your career. I

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Speaker 1: would imagine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And you know they were tough, tough love.

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Speaker 2: Probably in today's terms, maybe they might have been accused

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Speaker 2: of bullying. But I really appreciate it because I think

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Speaker 2: that journalism is a discipline as much as it is anything.

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Speaker 2: You have to adhere to the fundamentals of journalism, and

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Speaker 2: that's something that's stuck with me throughout my career. I

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Speaker 2: struggle when I first started, I don't get me wrong.

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Speaker 2: I thought about leaving maybe a year into the job,

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Speaker 2: but they encouraged me to stick at it. So I'm

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Speaker 2: not a natural to this business journalism in general, and

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Speaker 2: certainly not television. I've had to work really hard to

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Speaker 2: get to where I am now.

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Speaker 1: The move to television, how did that occur? Was that

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Speaker 1: by chance or is it something that you were aiming towards.

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Speaker 2: No, I took it when I was in school. I

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Speaker 2: actually did a work experience period at the local television

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Speaker 2: station in Bendigo as a cameraman. By the way, because

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Speaker 2: I never imagined i'd be a journalist, so in the

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Speaker 2: back of my mind I was fascinated by because the

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Speaker 2: difference in journalism in a local newspaper is you'll be

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Speaker 2: on the phone predominantly, whereas in TV you have to

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Speaker 2: go out. So that kind of always appealed to me,

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Speaker 2: being out and about seeing things. And I got a

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Speaker 2: job offer down in Gippsland in Country Victoria after about

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Speaker 2: three years, and I went down there and spend a year.

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Speaker 2: They got homesick, came back to Bendigo, back to the

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Speaker 2: Benni Graddy and I bounced around regional newspapers and television

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Speaker 2: until I was about twenty six when I got the

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Speaker 2: job at Channel seven.

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Speaker 1: And how was your first experiences live in front of

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Speaker 1: the camera, Because it is daunting, like if ever you're

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Speaker 1: going to make a fool of yourself, it's at that point.

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Speaker 2: I've made full of myself plenty of times, and I

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Speaker 2: still do my first live because we didn't do live

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Speaker 2: very much back when I started, because you needed a

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Speaker 2: truck and it was a lot more complicated than it

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Speaker 2: is today where they use a backpack to go live.

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Speaker 2: I was actually in Port Arthur when I did one

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Speaker 2: of my first live hits, that terrible massacre, and I

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Speaker 2: had feedback come into my ear so you could hear yourself,

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Speaker 2: but because of the delay, it was like two three

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Speaker 2: seconds delayed, and I thought it was someone talking to

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Speaker 2: me and I froze and that scarred me for a

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Speaker 2: long period of time. In fact, when I initially said

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Speaker 2: to my then news director, I wanted to become a

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Speaker 2: foreign correst responded he said, mate, you'd be a bloody

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Speaker 2: good foreign correspondent, but you can't do a live cross

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Speaker 2: to just swear you can't do a live cross to

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Speaker 2: save yourself, So I can't. I can't help you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so a bit of a slap down. Well

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Speaker 1: i'll go, but I know what you're talking about with

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Speaker 1: that feedback, And I in my early days in the cops.

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Speaker 1: If I was doing a live live cross and you've

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Speaker 1: got something in your ear and it's a delay and

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Speaker 1: the echoing and or you can't hear it all and

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Speaker 1: you're trying to read someone's lips to anticipate what they've

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Speaker 1: just asked you then to respond, yeah, it is is daunting.

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Speaker 1: So I am making a living out of it. That

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Speaker 1: you ended up doing it must be something. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: can get better at this. I will achieve this. Were

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Speaker 1: you're practicing home in front of the mirror or.

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Speaker 2: Not quite not quite that. I just had to stick

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Speaker 2: with it, and you know, just put those horrible voices

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Speaker 2: in your head, you know, to the to the back

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Speaker 2: of the room kind of thing. You know, you just

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Speaker 2: have to ignore those negative kind of feelings. And we

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Speaker 2: all go through that in one way or another in life.

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Speaker 2: And that's just a learning experience, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a challenge, but it's worth it.

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Speaker 2: In the end.

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Speaker 1: This is a true crime podcast. We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about some of the crimes that you've covered in your

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Speaker 1: eighteen years as a foreign correspondent. But I just want

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Speaker 1: to go through some of the things that you've done

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Speaker 1: which is not necessarily crime related, but as a foreign correspondent,

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Speaker 1: I think if I read this out, people might get

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Speaker 1: a sense of why I consider it potentially a dream job. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so you've traveled to over sixty countries. You're in Hong

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Speaker 1: Kong for the handover of the British rule, the aftermath

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Speaker 1: of the Swiss Canyoning disaster, in which twenty one adventure

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Speaker 1: of tourists died, including fourteen Australians. I'd forgotten about that.

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Speaker 1: That was a horrendous situation. Hasn't You've headed towards hurricanes

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Speaker 1: and earthquakes, been to war zones, ask the American president's questions.

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Speaker 1: You're probably glad you're not asking the current American president questions.

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Speaker 1: I have an own question, but I have it. Okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll touch on that. You've covered funerals of Ronald Reagan,

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Speaker 1: Margaret Thatcher, Fidel Castro, Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson, whole range

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Speaker 1: of things attended five Olympic Games, two Football World Cups,

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Speaker 1: wrestled with wild Ana Condas who were taking over the

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Speaker 1: Everglades being detained in China deport them from an African nation,

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Speaker 1: invited to play basketball with Lebron James, and you hung

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Speaker 1: out with Andy Thomas, Australia's first astronaut. And what's the

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Speaker 1: space shuttle? That is? If that wasn't your job, and

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Speaker 1: you just these are the things I want to see

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Speaker 1: and do and you put that on a bucket list.

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Speaker 1: They're the type of things that you want to experience

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Speaker 1: in life. What's your memories of those type of events

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Speaker 1: that you've seen and witnessed?

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Speaker 2: Oh, well, to see four space shuttles take off Gary,

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Speaker 2: including the last one. People pay to see that, And

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Speaker 2: I got paid to go and do that. So that's

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Speaker 2: kind of one of the benefits of the jobs. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot of drawbacks. I saw a lot of horrible things,

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Speaker 2: but I also got to do a lot of things

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Speaker 2: that people dream about, like yourself. You know, just a

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Speaker 2: space shuttle that feel that rumble and hear that roar

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Speaker 2: and you kind of reminds you of the power of humanity.

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Speaker 2: Then on the flip side of that you see the

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Speaker 2: power of Mother Nature which kind of overwhelms the power

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Speaker 2: of humanity no matter how strong we become. With earthquakes

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Speaker 2: and Haiti and hurricanes like Katrina. Yeah, these are things

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Speaker 2: that they stick with you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the power of nature. In your book, you talked

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Speaker 1: about the volcano eruption in Hawaii. Tell us about that,

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Speaker 1: because that would be fascinating. That's saying nature. It's urorus.

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Speaker 2: So Kilaway is on the Big Island of Hawaii and

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Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, these big fisures started breaking up into

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Speaker 2: neighborhoods and it was an eruption, but literally fountains of

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Speaker 2: molten lava would break up into suburban streets and just

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Speaker 2: swallow up these homes. And we went along and we're

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Speaker 2: told we weren't going to get anywhere near these molten

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Speaker 2: lava fountains because it was just too dangerous. But we

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Speaker 2: happened upon a group of people who are gathering in

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Speaker 2: this shopping center and they were talking to some National

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Speaker 2: guard and we just pulled up and it turned out

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Speaker 2: they were local media about to get an organized tour

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Speaker 2: into these neighborhoods that were being swallowed up by the

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Speaker 2: lava and using my Australian accent, which I often relied upon.

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Speaker 2: Could we tag along, mate, and the National Guard had

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Speaker 2: served with Australians in the Middle East. Oh you know,

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Speaker 2: it normally takes twenty four hours for you to get

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Speaker 2: to prove but you auses we love you would jump

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Speaker 2: in the back. So we found ourselves like that card. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so we did it a lot in the back of

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Speaker 2: this National Guard hum v going into these neighborhoods. Just

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Speaker 2: again talking about the power of mother nature. We were

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Speaker 2: maybe one hundred meters from this fountain of molten lava

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Speaker 2: and we're told by the National Guard troops, if we

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Speaker 2: tell you to run, drop your equipment and run, because

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Speaker 2: they had these meters that measured the sulfur in the air,

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Speaker 2: and he said, if it wind swings around and pushes

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Speaker 2: it in our direction, we've got to go or we'll

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Speaker 2: be dead in seconds. So that was the That was

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Speaker 2: kind of the background, but it was I was just

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Speaker 2: in awe of seeing this in person. It was unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's incredible what you see. And the title of

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Speaker 1: the book news Cowboys. You've got to have a little

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Speaker 1: bit of risk taking, calculate the risks, but things like that,

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Speaker 1: to get close, to get the shot, to experience what

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Speaker 1: you're reporting on, you would have come across a couple

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Speaker 1: of dodgy situations, I would imagine, or risky situations.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, I mean we called ourselves news cowboys. It

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Speaker 2: was the kind of the tongue in cheek kind of

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Speaker 2: reference to what we felt like. We're always riding into

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Speaker 2: a new adventure, underprepared and not really knowing what we're doing,

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Speaker 2: and somehow, more often than not, we pulled it off.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we went into Libya during the Arab spring

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Speaker 2: and in the back of smuggled ourselves basically in the

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Speaker 2: back of ambulances that were being taken to the to

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Speaker 2: the front line. We've chased cartel members in Mexico. It

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Speaker 2: didn't actually make the book, but these small towns in

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Speaker 2: deep Mexico had run the cartel out of their villages

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Speaker 2: and use their weapons and against them, and they were

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Speaker 2: hunting them, and we went on the hunt with them,

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Speaker 2: and they told us we're going to get into a

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Speaker 2: fire fight, and yeah, so yeah, I mean we took

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Speaker 2: we took risks. Sometimes I'd like to say they were calculated.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps we're not that smart, and we weren't that calculator,

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Speaker 2: but we, thankfully we're still here to tell the story.

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Speaker 1: Do you get do you get conditioned to it? Like

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Speaker 1: is it become like an adrenaline? And it's horrible to say,

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Speaker 1: but I do understand that, like, Okay, well that was good,

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Speaker 1: let's push it a little bit further. Do you get

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Speaker 1: conditioned to it? But then also you get attracted to

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Speaker 1: it too.

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Speaker 2: And that's the danger. You do get conditioned to it.

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Speaker 2: I can see having covered the Arab spring in Libya

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Speaker 2: and being on the front line and we had a

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Speaker 2: wallplane drop a bomb near us and they shot the

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Speaker 2: warplane down. And we're in Israel overlooking Gaza during the

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Speaker 2: two thousand and eight war and a hill overlooking Gaza

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Speaker 2: and a bomb I don't know if it was a

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Speaker 2: mortar or a rocket landed on the hill beside us,

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Speaker 2: you know, a couple hundred meters away. You know, common

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Speaker 2: sense would tell you to take cover. We didn't because

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Speaker 2: we were conditioned to it. I can see how some

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Speaker 2: journals get addicted to this stuff because you know, your

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Speaker 2: adrenaline is pumping and you walk away from it thinking, wow,

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Speaker 2: that was thrilling.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny and I suppose a lot of people

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Speaker 1: don't talk about it, but it's almost like getting that fix,

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Speaker 1: that adrenaline that is, and you've got to check yourself,

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Speaker 1: step away from it. And I suppose now you look

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Speaker 1: back and go, hmm, maybe that wasn't the wisest thing

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Speaker 1: to do, but.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're much smarter now, Gary, and they have experts,

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Speaker 2: you know, security teams with these journalists now who are

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Speaker 2: conditioned to know when you're pushing it too far. We

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Speaker 2: didn't really have that, so we were kind of green,

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Speaker 2: naive and that's dangerous and we push the limits. Luckily

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Speaker 2: we got away with it, but you know, so many

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Speaker 2: people don't get away with it. So many journals do

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Speaker 2: pay the price for it. And it's not just being

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Speaker 2: killed in a war. I mean things like a lot

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Speaker 2: of journo's foreign correspondents get killed in car accidents. That's

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Speaker 2: some of the most dangerous parts of the job. Because

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Speaker 2: you're driving across the Sahara Desert a one hundred and

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Speaker 2: eighty meters an hour.

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Speaker 1: You know, well, you even hear the military types talk

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Speaker 1: about that. They can quite often the dangers getting to

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Speaker 1: the location because of absolute the vehicles.

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Speaker 2: You're traveling in so absolutely.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned the Port Arthur and that was in your

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Speaker 1: early days. So when we talked the Port Arthur massacre,

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Speaker 1: thirty five people murdered. Martin Bryant was the offender. You

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Speaker 1: got called down a couple of days after the event,

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Speaker 1: but quite strangely, you were actually at the what was

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Speaker 1: it the Broad Arrow Cafe a couple of weeks before

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Speaker 1: Martin Bryant went in there and killed twelve people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I was with my then girlfriend and we'd been

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Speaker 2: to Tasmania for the first time two weeks two weekends

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Speaker 2: before the Port Arthur massacre happened, so we'd had lunch

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Speaker 2: in the Broad Arrow Cafe. The memory of the ladies

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Speaker 2: who were working in there was still very real to me,

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Speaker 2: so when it happened, I could picture everything, really, the

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Speaker 2: ticket booth on the way in the car park, where

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Speaker 2: Martin Bryant chased so many people. So it was very

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Speaker 2: real to me. And you're right, I wasn't the first

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Speaker 2: wave of journalists to go down. I think I was

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Speaker 2: twenty six, so I was still very young and green.

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Speaker 2: But I got sent down two or three days later,

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Speaker 2: and that's a story that really hit me very hard.

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Speaker 2: I've covered a lot of stories massacres since, but that

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Speaker 2: one was kind of personal to me because it was Australians.

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Speaker 2: I kind of was able to distance myself a little

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Speaker 2: bit in other massacres by saying, this is happening to

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Speaker 2: another country. If that sounds callous, but the way I

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Speaker 2: protected myself, but Port Arthur was very personal. And to

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Speaker 2: be in Hobart at that time, you know, people were

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Speaker 2: just they were destroyed. They were destroyed, and you know,

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Speaker 2: if you didn't know somebody involved, you knew of somebody

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Speaker 2: who knew somebody. It was a shocking crime. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I ended up covering Martin Bryant pleading guilty in the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court and I sat probably I don't know five

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Speaker 2: meters away from him as he laughed.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about that, because it's quite chilling when the

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Speaker 1: charges have been read out and he's asked to enter

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Speaker 1: a plea and he was treating that as a comedy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I never forget the look of him, a big

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Speaker 2: shock of curly blonde hair and these piercing, staring eyes

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Speaker 2: like something out of a horror movie. It really was.

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Speaker 2: And the prosecutor was going through the charges. You know,

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Speaker 2: you have been charged with killing this person on this day,

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Speaker 2: how do you plead? And he he pleaded guilty, but

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Speaker 2: he seemed to find some amusement in the fact that

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Speaker 2: it was repeated, you know, on this day again and

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Speaker 2: again and started laughing hysterically. It was and you know,

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Speaker 2: the poor family members that were in the court, and

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Speaker 2: to the point that his lawyer ended up telling him

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Speaker 2: to shut up. Basically, that was just pure evil, pure evil,

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Speaker 2: pure madness.

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Speaker 1: Upfront, what was he sentenced after convicted of those thirty

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Speaker 1: five murders and all the other offenses.

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Speaker 2: He was sentenced to thirty five life sentences, So here

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Speaker 2: he'll die in prison. Rotten.

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Speaker 1: How I say, I'm with you. You said you're twenty

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Speaker 1: six at the time, probably the biggest story you've been

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Speaker 1: involved in. And did it change your view or did

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Speaker 1: it is something shift in you after you were involved

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Speaker 1: in a story like that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, in that I think I think I carried it

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Speaker 2: very heavily on myself. The impact that journalists can have

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Speaker 2: when covering a story like that. Quickly a lot of

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Speaker 2: the community anger turned against us. You know, we're being

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Speaker 2: spat on in reads. And I understand and I've seen

396
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Speaker 2: I have seen it since that people are looking to

397
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Speaker 2: point their anger at somebody, and these journals are still

398
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Speaker 2: there asking questions. I found that really confronting and conflicting,

399
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Speaker 2: and you know, are we doing the right thing here? Yeah?

400
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Speaker 2: And again I've seen it another, you know, in other

401
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Speaker 2: massacres in other places.

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Speaker 1: It's an interesting conundrum, isn't it with the journalists Because

403
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Speaker 1: I saw a lot when I was as a police

404
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Speaker 1: officer in homicide, A lot of people, because I wasn't

405
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Speaker 1: a journalist, would often make disparaging remarks about the media.

406
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Speaker 1: Oh they're covering this and covering that. But it was

407
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Speaker 1: ironic because when they didn't cover it, people would be winging, well,

408
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Speaker 1: why don't they cover this crime? Because what no one's interested.

409
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Speaker 1: There's a real difficulty in what the role is the

410
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Speaker 1: media and an understanding of what the media is. But

411
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Speaker 1: these things have to be reported. If they're not reported,

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Speaker 1: they get swept under the carpet. What's your views on

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Speaker 1: the morality of what you do with covering stories like that?

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Speaker 2: Gary? I don't want to live in a world where

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Speaker 2: something like Port Alpha can happen and then two three

416
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Speaker 2: days later we all move on and forget about it.

417
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Speaker 2: Something of that significance needs we need to remain focused

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Speaker 2: on it. And I've seen it in America when they've

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Speaker 2: had gun violence, shocking massacres, where they quickly move on

420
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Speaker 2: and they don't learn the lessons. And it sounds cliche,

421
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Speaker 2: but we are the first draft of history, and what

422
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Speaker 2: we are reporting at the time often becomes historical we

423
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Speaker 2: look back at it, and without that then it's not

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Speaker 2: really you know, it doesn't become part of history. You're right.

425
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Speaker 2: The worst thing in the world is something horrific happened

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Speaker 2: and no one took any notice of it. I don't

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Speaker 2: want to live in a world like that.

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Speaker 1: No, I think it's an important role. I'm not saying

429
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Speaker 1: that now because I'm working in the media of journalism,

430
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Speaker 1: but I thought it was bad. Things are more prone

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Speaker 1: to happen when the spotlight's not put on them, and

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Speaker 1: I honestly believe you need that transparency so people understand

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Speaker 1: what's actually going on, and that evokes a reaction. The

434
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 1: Port Arthur massacre, if we just sort of shut that down.

435
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,360
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it was the media coverage that resulted

436
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,719
Speaker 1: in it, but the crackdown on firearms in Australia, that

437
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 1: was public outrage that made the government, and full credit

438
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 1: to John Howard on what he did bringing in the

439
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: bands and the gun buyback scheme. I think there was

440
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,199
Speaker 1: six hundred and fifty thousand firearms turned in.

441
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 2: Again, what we saw out of the result, there was

442
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,959
Speaker 2: some good to come out of something horrific. And again

443
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 2: I keep seeing what's happened in America and continues to happen.

444
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 2: They don't, they don't change course. There is never anything

445
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 2: good to come out of something so bad, and it

446
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 2: keeps happening and keeps repeating itself. I don't get it.

447
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 2: Are we always perfect in the way we handle our

448
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: coverage of massacres and people's grief. No, we're not. We're not.

449
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 2: We're imperfect in that respect. But by continuing to stay

450
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 2: focused on things that are important, we do put political

451
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 2: pressure on people to make changes, like John Howard did,

452
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 2: so there is perhaps a lesson learned or a change made.

453
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: It's a fine line because you're dealing with people that

454
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 1: are highly emotional understanding because of what's occurred. So it's

455
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: sort of been a no win situation. But I try

456
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: to look at it objectively, and I think that there's

457
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: better good in spotlight being put on situations rather than

458
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,479
Speaker 1: just sweeping under carpet. You talked about America. Now, you

459
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: were the US correspondent for Channel seven, and you might

460
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: have forgotten the amount of mass shootings you attended. Can

461
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 1: you just run us through some of them and the impact.

462
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 1: I want to get your thoughts on what's the difference

463
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: some of the things. Every time, not every time, but

464
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: I hear of these mass shootings, I think, Okay, this

465
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 1: is going to be what tips America into We're going

466
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 1: to do something about it. But then you hear the

467
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 1: powerful gun lobby and different things and just the mentality

468
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: of what's over in America. First of all, tell me

469
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,479
Speaker 1: about some of the ones that you've covered and the

470
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: ones that have impacted on the most in the US.

471
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 2: I've covered so many, and writing the book, I'd forgotten

472
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 2: about a lot of the ones that I had covered.

473
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: The one that stuck with me was the school massacre

474
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 2: of twenty six and seven year olds just outside of

475
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 2: New York elementary school. Gunman went in and shot dead

476
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:57,719
Speaker 2: those children and I think eight adults as well, But

477
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 2: they became so many. I mean the Charleston church massacre

478
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 2: where the gunman prayed with the African American church goers

479
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 2: for an hour before turning around and massacring in them,

480
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 2: all except one to leave a message behind. I went

481
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 2: to another at a college in America where the same

482
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: number as Port Arthur which struck me, which was thirty

483
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 2: five dead and kids were still going to school while

484
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 2: in another part of the campus this guy was on

485
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 2: a rampage killing people. Because authorities couldn't get the message out.

486
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 2: It became commonplace, and it became this dreadful you know,

487
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 2: the Orlando nightclub massacre. I'm sitting here thinking of them

488
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 2: as they came, you know, the Las Vegas music festival.

489
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 2: I covered Norway massacre in Oslo, again, a country that

490
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 2: doesn't have great gun control. They just keep flooding back

491
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: to me. It just kept happening and happening, happy, and

492
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: we ended up having this awful kind of calculation about

493
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 2: what is worth going to now, What is going to

494
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 2: attract Australia's attention to these massacres. But they're coming so

495
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 2: often that people go, there's just another massacre in America.

496
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 2: That's where it got right.

497
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: Okay, So from the news point of view, is it

498
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 1: of interest?

499
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 2: What's the number?

500
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: Is it? Ten?

501
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: Fifteen, twenty? I mean that's how And I got very

502
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 2: angry about it because I could. I could having been

503
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: in Port Arthur and seeing what John Howard did, and

504
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: away from politics, seeing what John Howard did, and then

505
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 2: seeing America being and then they'd be hashtag pray for you,

506
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: pray for this city, or hashtag pray for Orlando, and

507
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: then the politicians would get up and go, now's not

508
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: the time to talk about gun control, Now is the

509
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 2: time to well, they just forget about it and move

510
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 2: on the next couple of couple of days and nothing

511
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,959
Speaker 2: would happen. You know. And the kid that died in

512
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: the Sandy Hook school massacre I mentioned before, they were

513
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: the same age as my son at the time, and

514
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: it was a very affluent society. You're not dissimilar to

515
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 2: where I was living in California, And to me, it

516
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: was nowhere was safe. And if a country would allow

517
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 2: twenty six and seven year olds to be killed in

518
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 2: their school and not do anything about it, then what

519
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: kind of country is it? Even you had the President

520
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: of the United States, Barack Obama, come out and say

521
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: we need to do something, but America's lover of guns

522
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 2: is just so unexplainable and so addictive to them, and

523
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: the gun lobby there just so powerful that any politician

524
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: that tried to make significant change was voted out. I

525
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: saw it after the cinema massacre in Colorado. Some Republican

526
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 2: politicians tried to change the gun law and they got

527
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 2: voted out.

528
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: It's incomprehensible for someone that lived in a country like

529
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: Australia to understand the logic behind it. There was one

530
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: that you talked about, and I think it was a

531
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,959
Speaker 1: school where thousands of kids and the shooter in this

532
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: particular one, he killed himself, but the person that sold

533
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: him the gun was arguing, well, it wouldn't have happened.

534
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: There was thirty three five hundred people that if they

535
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: are armed, that wouldn't have happened. That was the logic.

536
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: And I remember hearing headlines put the guns in schools

537
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: and these things won't happen. Like I for all intents

538
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: and purposes, you look at these people and think they're sane,

539
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: but how do they come across with that? And you

540
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: touched on the gun lobby and they understand. Politicians sadly,

541
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: are often driven about how they stay in power. They

542
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: don't want to turn against them. But I would have

543
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: thought something was done with some of those extreme ones,

544
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: especially when you talked of the kindergarten one like ho

545
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: that that touches everyone. We can't dismiss that these are

546
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: kids six and seven year olds going the kindergarten and

547
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: they're shot and killed.

548
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: And I think most fair minded Americans would agree that

549
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 2: you don't need weapons of war on the streets of America.

550
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 2: You don't need an AR fifteen that belongs, that belongs

551
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 2: in a war zone, that's not a hunting rifle. Their

552
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: mindset towards weapons is different to ours. You're never going

553
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 2: to get rid of weapons, like John Howard did. I

554
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 2: think most fair minded Americans would agree with that. But

555
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 2: the gun lobby, the NRA is powerful, even though their

556
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 2: membership is no one knows their membership to be honest.

557
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 2: It might be two million people, but two million people

558
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: are holding a country of what three hundred and fifty

559
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: million at ransom. But this notion that if you the

560
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 2: general public that's going to stop massacres, well it doesn't

561
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: work because they keep happening, and there are more guns

562
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: in America than anywhere else. And I used to say

563
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 2: that I evenue of an instance where a massacre was

564
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: stopped by somebody else who was There's since been a

565
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 2: couple of those, but they're very rare.

566
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: Very rare. Did you get the amount of times you

567
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: were called to those type of massacres? Did you lose

568
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: faith in humanity there? Like what happened to you there?

569
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: Like reading it when you're afar on the other side

570
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: of the world, it sort of sends a shockwave. But

571
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: you're going there, You've seeing the grief of the families,

572
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: You're seeing the pain of a community.

573
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: I was angry, and you could probably tell by my response.

574
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: I'm still angry about it. I mean, and you've got

575
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 2: to remember, Gary, that I was. I was part of

576
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: the community. I'm an American citizen, my wife's American, my

577
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 2: son's American. So I felt became this became personal to

578
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: me because this was a society that I was living

579
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 2: in and part of that. I could see having seen

580
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: again what happened out of Port Arthur, what could happen

581
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 2: and what wasn't happening, and again and again, and it's

582
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 2: still going on again and again. You know, communities being

583
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: torn apart, and just the outright refusal to do anything

584
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: about it.

585
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: Do you know, because you went the Oslo and that

586
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: was the shooting at a festival seventy There was two attacks,

587
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: but I think on the island where there was a

588
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: festival seventy so people killed by the offender in this

589
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,719
Speaker 1: case had dressed up as a security guard or whatever

590
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: had gone over there. Did you know this a difference

591
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: in the way that nation responded as compared to America

592
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: with these type of things, or is pretty much the same.

593
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 2: I can't, in all honesty tell you the aftermath, the

594
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: long term aftermath of what happened, but certainly the level

595
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 2: of shock was greater because they had an experienced But

596
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 2: I mean it was I think seventy odd people, young

597
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 2: kids got killed. They were basically caught on an island

598
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: by this government and had nowhere where to go. He'd

599
00:33:52,160 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: also had detonated some explosive devices in downtown Oslo. The

600
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: absolute devastation really shocked me because America, you know, there's

601
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 2: a level of mourning that's natural. But America moved on

602
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 2: very quickly. Oslo Norway didn't. I can't tell you with

603
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 2: any certainty whether there is any gun reform out of that.

604
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, you talked about interviewing American presidents and seeing

605
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: the elections, you would have covered a few when you

606
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: over there, just off the crime aspect, just to lighten

607
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: it up a bit. What are the elections like? Are

608
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,399
Speaker 1: they as crazy as what we see over here?

609
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,760
Speaker 2: I love American politics. I fell in love very quickly.

610
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: In fact, I left straight straight out of the Sydney Olympics,

611
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: and I was in America about two weeks later, and

612
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 2: it quickly dawned on me that there was a US

613
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 2: election a couple of weeks away, and I may be

614
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 2: in the excitement of the Olympics and going there, I

615
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: hadn't really thought about it. And I said to my boss.

616
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 2: I said, shit, mate, there's an election coming up in

617
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 2: two weeks. I know nothing about US politics. He said,

618
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 2: don't worry about it, mate, We'll be right. It'll be

619
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 2: over in a couple of days. Well that was George

620
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 2: Bush versus Gore. I don't know if you remember. That

621
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 2: was the county that was the hanging chads. So you know,

622
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: on the night and I'm sitting there Green having just

623
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 2: arrived from Australia, thinking of this, I'll just need to

624
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 2: get just need to fudge it through this night and

625
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 2: I'll be all right. All of a sudden, Al Gore

626
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 2: conceded and then took back his concession just as George

627
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 2: Bush was about to deliver his victory speech. And they

628
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: did the recount in Florida, and they had the hanging chads.

629
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 2: You know, there's people with a cross eye. They're looking

630
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 2: at the ballots and seeing whether it was punched through

631
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: or not. And this so much for it only lasting

632
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 2: a couple of days. I think it was decided by

633
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 2: the US Supreme Court in December. Dragged on and on

634
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 2: and on, but that was my initiation to US politics.

635
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 2: And it's just so much theater in it, the pomp

636
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 2: and ceremony and tradition, the conventions, the election night. I

637
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 2: loved it. I still love it. I'm kind of horrified

638
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 2: to see what's happening over there, to be honest. I

639
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: was there for the first part of Donald Trump's first term.

640
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 2: I covered five US elections, so I was there for

641
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 2: both the Bush, both of Obama, and the first one

642
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: of Trump. Yeah, I think we're in an interesting slash

643
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: dangerous period of time in American politics, so it'll be

644
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 2: interesting to see how we get out of it. But

645
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 2: I love US politics.

646
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: Well, it would be entertaining, and sometimes it goes on

647
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: here and I'm thinking of it, is this a reality

648
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 1: TV show? Or what am I watching? When Obama was elected,

649
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 1: that was a significant moment. What was the feeling like

650
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 1: in the country at that time.

651
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,399
Speaker 2: Well, he's one of his themes was hope. You could

652
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 2: feel it. You could feel it was there was a

653
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: period of great hope for America that were just coming

654
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 2: out of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. You know,

655
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: the shocking attacks of September eleventh. Americans were beaten down,

656
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: and we remember the economy turned just as Obama came in.

657
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: So he swept on this wave of love and hope,

658
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 2: and you know, first African American to be elected. You know,

659
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: it's great enthusiasm, and he's such a great speaker, such

660
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 2: a great orator, it's hard not to get swept up

661
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 2: in that, regardless of his politics. Now, it seems that

662
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 2: politics has been taken over by hate and division, no

663
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 2: matter what side you're on, you know, and it's kind

664
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: of creeping in here as well.

665
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no unity.

666
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,959
Speaker 2: You can't disagree with somebody, you know, if you don't

667
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 2: have the same belief as me, you're a dickhead or

668
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 2: a dumbass. That's not the way. We all have the

669
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: right to have a different opinion. And name calling or worse,

670
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 2: political violences, there's just no, there's no place for it.

671
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 1: There's a real adversarial approach, yes, combative, and it doesn't

672
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 1: seem to serve anyone.

673
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: Well, no, in America. What I loved about America because

674
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 2: we always talk don't talk about politics, you know, religion.

675
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 2: That's not the same. In America. You would have a

676
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: debate like debating a football team, you know, and it

677
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: would be generally well taken, but a dangerous conversation to have.

678
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: Now, Hey, guys, it's Gary jubilin here. Want to get

679
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: more out of I Catch Killers, then you should head

680
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 1: over to our new video feed on Spotify where you

681
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: can watch every episode of I Catch Killers. Just search

682
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: for I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and

683
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 1: start watching.

684
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 2: Today.

685
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,919
Speaker 1: You're in New York for September eleventh, and yeah, that's

686
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 1: life changing for everyone. That doesn't mean you have to

687
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: be there at the time. Every on the world changed

688
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: from that moment. You're actually in New York and I

689
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: think you're about to leave, and the first Tower was

690
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: hit by a plane talk us through the events of

691
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: that Todd.

692
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 2: We said, at the start, I accidentally found myself in

693
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: major stories, and that was the biggest of them. I'd

694
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 2: been there covering Leighton Hewitt had won the US Open

695
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 2: tennis that weekend as a twenty year old. We are

696
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 2: been following around it. To be honest, he was a

697
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 2: little difficult to follow around. So he left and we

698
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 2: all went out and celebrated that night. Next morning, I

699
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 2: woke up, I was pretty dusty, and we're heading to

700
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 2: the airport and this driver picked us up and he

701
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 2: was Israeli and he thought we were tourists, and so

702
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 2: he was giving us a tour as we were leaving,

703
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 2: not the typical grumpy New York taxi driver. And he said,

704
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,280
Speaker 2: we're driving down and he said, that's the Israeli consulate,

705
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 2: and there's always a police car there guarding it. And

706
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: almost on que the police guard lit up its lights

707
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 2: and tore off, and he goes, that's unusual. And the

708
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 2: next left turn down into the one of the tunnels

709
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 2: leading out of Manhattan, and we're in the traffic for

710
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 2: a little while. Emerged at the other side and the

711
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 2: world had changed almost immediately. You could see every emergency vehicle,

712
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 2: fire brigade, ambulance, police card just pouring back into the

713
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 2: tunnel going into Manhattan. And my phone started rattling off

714
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 2: with messages. Remember we had flip phones, so they're pretty basic,

715
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 2: and I was trying to go through them. Got a

716
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 2: call and it was someone from the newsroom. It was

717
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: late at night in Sydney. This plane is just hit

718
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: the World Trades and I'm like, that can't be true.

719
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 2: It was beautiful, blue sky, it was a beautiful day.

720
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 2: Look through the taxi window and almost frame perfectly is

721
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: the first tower on fire, big hole and it just

722
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 2: been hit. I I didn't know what was going on.

723
00:40:55,480 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 2: Our taxi driver started wailing and banging the wheel of

724
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 2: the cut cab, saying, they've got us here, they've got

725
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 2: us here, obviously referring to terrorism might come down. We

726
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: need to go back the other way, and we were

727
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 2: going to do a phone interview back to the Sydney studio,

728
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 2: and I heard a cry in the studio come out

729
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 2: and it was the moment the second plane had hit,

730
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 2: and sure enough I could see it through the back

731
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 2: of the taxi window. So we were trying to get

732
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 2: back into Manhattan. They were closing all the bridges and tunnels,

733
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 2: fearing that this was the start of something bigger, which

734
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 2: it was. And we eventually got back through Harlem. If

735
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 2: anyone knows, Manhattan's kind of the top northern part. So

736
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 2: we had to drive all the way back. And as

737
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 2: we and we were listening on the radio. We were

738
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 2: listening to you know, there's a plane gone into the Pentagon,

739
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 2: a plane gone down in Pennsylvania, another one going towards

740
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 2: the White House. There was a car bomb exploded at

741
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 2: the US Supreme Court. Some of it wasn't true, but

742
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 2: too much of it was. But it was like I

743
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: always say, it's like War of the World, you know,

744
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 2: the radio show in the maintain. Yeah, and everyone thought

745
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 2: it was true. Well, this this was like that, and

746
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 2: you know, my head's spinning. I think I quickly forgot

747
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 2: my hangover. We didn't. I didn't see the towels come down,

748
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,760
Speaker 2: but we got there just after they came down, and

749
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: we're listening to it on the radio, and you could

750
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 2: see people starting to emerge on the streets, just covered

751
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 2: caked in gray dust, horrified, just just sheer terror on

752
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 2: their face. Yeah, we went in and we spent three

753
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 2: or four nights sleeping in the streets of Lower Manhattan

754
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 2: because the police had cooded it off, so if you left,

755
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: you weren't going to get back in. So we had

756
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 2: to slept in a Cameron's car the first night, in

757
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,720
Speaker 2: the alcove of a building, the second on the floor

758
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 2: of a satellite truck the third and yeah, the world

759
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:02,800
Speaker 2: had changed, and you know, I was my head was spinning.

760
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 2: I was overwhelmed by it. I was at the scene,

761
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 2: found myself boy friend Bendigo, at the scene of certainly

762
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 2: the biggest story of my career and perhaps my lifetime.

763
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how like I would imagine the logistical side

764
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: of even filing your stories must have been. You're saying

765
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 1: you're sleeping on the floor of a van, and different things,

766
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,399
Speaker 1: the chaos that would u surrounded what went on.

767
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 2: And again, primitive mobile phones. The mobile phone towers were

768
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 2: on top of the World Trade centers, so mobile phones

769
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 2: were not working. We had to rely upon satellite trucks

770
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 2: to get our material out. The Americans would promise we'd

771
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 2: sit next to a satellite truck hoping to get ten

772
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: twenty minutes out of the airtime out of the satellite

773
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 2: truck and we kept getting bumped because they were going

774
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 2: wall to wall to wall to wall. These were the

775
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: logistical challenges that we kept facing being able to talk

776
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 2: to Sydney. I didn't even see the vision of the

777
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 2: towels come down because I was in the street. We

778
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 2: saw the firefighters emerge after the towers come down, just

779
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: again caked in dust, and my phone for some reason

780
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 2: came to life for a couple of minutes and he

781
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 2: one of the firefighters said can I use it? I

782
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 2: said sure, and I guess I was eavesdropping, but he

783
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 2: phoned a loved one and started crying and said, you know,

784
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: I've lost so many mates. I'm alive, but I've got

785
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 2: so many friends and hung up and went back in.

786
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 2: I mean, those guys were incredibly brave. But yeah, I

787
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 2: think as a journalist, you go into journalism mode. You

788
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 2: try to just kick into well, I've got to I've

789
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,720
Speaker 2: got to cover this. Yeah, I'm overwhelmed by it, scared

790
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 2: even but I've got to do this. I've got to

791
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 2: get this story. I've got to try to go live.

792
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 2: We think we were the first Australian TV network to

793
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 2: go live from the scene and one of the challenges,

794
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 2: especially early on being a foreign correspondence, is the logistics.

795
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 2: You know, food, cars, petrol, power. Covering the story is

796
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 2: just part of the part of the challenge.

797
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 1: It's interesting what you say there might that you go

798
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: into journalists mode when it's happening. I understand that, and

799
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: I think that's the way a lot of us got

800
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: through homicide work. That you're a horrendous scene. But people

801
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: would say, well, how did you feel when you're actually working.

802
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: You don't have time to process how you feel. Like

803
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: when your job at a crime scene was making sure

804
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 1: we catch a person that's done this. So that was

805
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 1: my focus, and I would imagine in your situation that

806
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: would be very much the same. My job here is

807
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: to cover this. That's what I'm focusing on, and you

808
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: don't get time to sort of step away until you've

809
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: finished your job. Did you did it hit you at

810
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: some point in time? You said, four days you're on

811
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,240
Speaker 1: the ground. Did you ever have time to just reflect

812
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 1: what you had seen and been involved in.

813
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, we were on the ground for three or four weeks,

814
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: but camped in the streets for three or four days

815
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 2: before we were able to get accommodation. Yeah, There was

816
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,959
Speaker 2: one point a few days in where people started coming

817
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: up to us, and initially it was just a couple

818
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 2: of people with a photo have you seen this person?

819
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 2: And initially I'm like, why are you asking me? You know,

820
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:34,479
Speaker 2: and it kind of didn't dawn on me, It didn't,

821
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 2: you know, what was going on. And then then it

822
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 2: became a flood of people, dozens of people coming up

823
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 2: to us with photos of loved ones. So just so

824
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 2: desperate to find people, their loved ones who disappeared in

825
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 2: the World Trade Center, that they'd come to journos you know,

826
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 2: have you seen them? You know, I mean it was inconceivable,

827
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 2: but to them, they were so desperate. And then I

828
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 2: just kind of, you know, it kind of hit me, like, wow,

829
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 2: these poor people have They've got nothing, They've just disappeared.

830
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 2: They didn't pull anybody out of there. They had gurney's

831
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 2: waiting at hospitals. And the other thing Gary that also

832
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 2: hit me, and I still struggle with it when I

833
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 2: see documentaries, is the chirping. The firefighters wore alarms, personal

834
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 2: alarms so to help them be found in the case

835
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 2: of something happening, and all through those first certainly the

836
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 2: first night, maybe the first couple of nights, all you

837
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: could hear was the chirping from the World Trade Center ruined.

838
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 2: It was those personal fire alarm going off. They if

839
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 2: they found anything, it wasn't. They weren't pulling out bodies,

840
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 2: that was. You know, these just kept going off until

841
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 2: the batteries ran out.

842
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: Horrendous And it changed the world too, didn't It changed

843
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 1: a lot about your world. You would have found yourself

844
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 1: in different places because of that particular day.

845
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:03,959
Speaker 2: It dictated the next decade or more of what we did.

846
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,240
Speaker 2: You know, we went into two World War two wars,

847
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 2: rather one of which you know, didn't finish until after

848
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 2: I left the US. There were terrorist attacks that's kind

849
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 2: of spawned out of it, even in Sydney. I went

850
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 2: to cover them. In Paris and other parts of America.

851
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 2: You know, I think people who perhaps not old enough

852
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 2: to remember the differences. It was kind of one of

853
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 2: those moments before nine to eleven and after nine eleven

854
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 2: it's certainly changed, and even you know, predominantly in America

855
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 2: they went into deep mourning.

856
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it certainly must have had an impact when

857
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: you see and at the time, and that's interesting you

858
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: say that with all the reports. If you're under attack

859
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 1: and you didn't know when it was going to end,

860
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: reference war of the world, So I understand what you're

861
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: saying there. It would have been a surreal situation.

862
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 2: Well, they shut down the the air space really quickly,

863
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 2: but a couple of times passenger planes flew over, obviously

864
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 2: going being told they had to land again, and everyone's like,

865
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 2: you know, it's just another one. Yeah. And and that

866
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 2: first flight when I eventually I went down to Washington

867
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 2: a few weeks after because George Bush made an addressed

868
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 2: to Congress, and that flight home was a nerve wracking flight,

869
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:29,399
Speaker 2: you know, and all those security measures they brought in

870
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 2: take you two hours to get through security in American airports. Yeah,

871
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 2: it changed remarkably.

872
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: Well, you know, these are some of the heavy things

873
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: you've you've done. I'm going to lighten it up a

874
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 1: little bit before we take a break for the part one.

875
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 1: But why were you wrestling wild anacondas.

876
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 2: Well? Ana Condas?

877
00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: I've seen the movie a documentary.

878
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 2: Oh what happened? This thing had a head on it

879
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 2: like this, Yeah, it was it was I think it

880
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 2: was twenty feet long and thick. And so this was

881
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 2: a guy that was picking up these anacondas and people's

882
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,240
Speaker 2: swimming pools. So it was in the Everglades. The story,

883
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 2: the folk lore, and I don't know how true it

884
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 2: was that a breeder had anacondas during one of the

885
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: hurricanes in Florida and it hid his house, destroyed his

886
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 2: collection of anacondas. They all escaped into the Everglades and

887
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 2: they started breeding so big that they would they would

888
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 2: eat the alligators, and it became started becoming a huge

889
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 2: problem down there, probably still is. So I love the

890
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:50,879
Speaker 2: thought of going on air boats and seeing alligators and

891
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 2: trying to fight. We didn't see one in the while,

892
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 2: but we found this guy that was collecting it, and

893
00:50:55,040 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 2: he encouraged us to pick this bloody thing up. A

894
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 2: couple of times in my life that I was scared

895
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 2: that was one of them. This thing would have.

896
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've handled snakes and I know how strong they feel,

897
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: just the small snakes. So it's just pure muscle.

898
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 2: Just yeah, it wrapped around my arm and they're like,

899
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 2: oh my, you can get him off now. Yeah.

900
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 1: Well see some of the amazing experiences did I I

901
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 1: think it was in your book writing around the Pyramids

902
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 1: at some stage.

903
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was after we came back from Libya, so

904
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 2: we'd had three weeks I think in Libya covering the

905
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 2: war there, and it was after the uprising in Egypt,

906
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 2: so there were no tourists there. OK, it was still

907
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,720
Speaker 2: very tense there. I know you've spoken Peter Grestor before,

908
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 2: so and John and my camera and I maybe one

909
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 2: of maybe half a dozen tourists, and we got we're

910
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 2: able to get a camera ride around the the pyramids

911
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 2: and virtually just us, which is unheard of because you

912
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 2: go there now will be thousands and thousands and thousands

913
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 2: of people.

914
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: What an experience. These are the things that balance it out,

915
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah? It is.

916
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 2: We took some time sometimes we didn't always blow in

917
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 2: and blow out. Sometimes you take a day just to

918
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 2: enjoy where you're at. That was one of those times.

919
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, now, and I do. I've seen and I've been

920
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 1: involved in the industry enough to see how hard you

921
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: work when it's on. And I've been away with film crews,

922
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 1: and I thought we pushed hard in the Cops, and

923
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: we did, but I was always impressed by you know,

924
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 1: you could be going for twenty hours, forget the meal.

925
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 1: We've got to get this shot. We've got to do

926
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: this so that you do do work when it's on.

927
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 2: Well, I mean in case of you flying to Libya.

928
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,399
Speaker 2: We flew into Egypt, jumped in a car and drove

929
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 2: straight into Libya. We were asleep because we're still jet lagged.

930
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,280
Speaker 2: And you just go twenty hours our days, doesn't matter.

931
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 2: You get the job done.

932
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: Well, let's have a break and when we come back,

933
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,399
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about There's one that you work

934
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 1: very closely on and it was covered over here, but

935
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: that was the senseless murder of Chris Lane, the young

936
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: aussy guy that was over there on a baseball scholarship.

937
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:24,839
Speaker 1: Hurricane Katrina and the aftermath of that and what you

938
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: saw in there, David Hicks in Guadamart Bay. I think

939
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,879
Speaker 1: that's interesting that you've been there and so a whole

940
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: range of things. And I'm sure I've got a couple

941
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: of other little things I might pull out here and

942
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 1: I can have a chat. But let's let's do that

943
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: in part two.

944
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 2: Cheers, Cheers,