Speaker 1: I'll get a team, your bloody champions. Welcome to another
Speaker 1: installment of the You Project. It's fatty Harps, it's jumbo,
Speaker 1: it's ripped in rock hard cook over there at typ
Speaker 1: Central with biceps like a man. You're allowed to say that,
Speaker 1: Probably not, I hope. So all right. Gusa's waving is
Speaker 1: nodding and shaking his head.
Speaker 2: I would. There are plenty of people out there that way.
Speaker 2: But we all take ourselves a bit too seriously, don't we.
Speaker 1: I think we do. We'll too freely admit she is.
Speaker 1: What's your current percentage of being a man? Thirty percent?
Speaker 2: Yeah, thirty thirty five some days.
Speaker 1: Thirty thirty five. Well that's funny because I'm thirty thirty
Speaker 1: five percent woman. So between the three of us, who
Speaker 1: knows what the fuck we are? Hi, Gus, welcome to
Speaker 1: the You Project.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me in
Speaker 2: episode seventeen hundred and something. You eventually got to me.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, you know, bottom of the barrel. But
Speaker 1: we do what we can. No, that's not true. As
Speaker 1: I said to you before, I just built up six
Speaker 1: years of skill and knowledge and insights so that I
Speaker 1: would be ready, So today's the day.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's great. I'm looking forward to chatting to you,
Speaker 2: and thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: It's a pleasure. You are a big deal, as Melissa
Speaker 1: said to me, Melissa is both of our bosses. She's
Speaker 1: TIFF's boss and my loss. She's the actual boss. And
Speaker 1: she said to me about three hours ago, remember you've
Speaker 1: got Gus And I'm like, yep, She goes, do you
Speaker 1: know who Guss is? I go a little bit, she goes,
Speaker 1: you should do some research. He's a big deal. So
Speaker 1: do you feel like a big deal?
Speaker 2: No, not at all. And I love the fact that
Speaker 2: what I'm doing has got some impact and people tell
Speaker 2: me that, But no, not at all. There are times
Speaker 2: where people recognize me and that's nice, but I'd much
Speaker 2: prefer to just allow myself to get on and do
Speaker 2: the work. But yeah, I'd be wrong to say that
Speaker 2: I wasn't a little bit tough. When people come up
Speaker 2: to you and say you've helped me and stuff, that's
Speaker 2: a part of it, for sure.
Speaker 1: When you set out in your media career or when
Speaker 1: you started doing what you ended up doing. But in
Speaker 1: the genesis of that, did you have any inkling or
Speaker 1: idea or intention that you would have the reach and
Speaker 1: impact that you did and do.
Speaker 2: I think probably. I was thirty eight before I got
Speaker 2: my first gig in media, so I'd already had a
Speaker 2: bit of a life, three children, eight pregnancies to have
Speaker 2: those children. My wife and I've been through a lot.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And my wife is English, so she was always away
Speaker 2: from home, or I was in England and I was
Speaker 2: away from home, So there was a lot going on
Speaker 2: in that thirty eight years. And I think that's why
Speaker 2: it works so well. Initially when I got into medias
Speaker 2: because I was actually an adult in adverted commerce and
Speaker 2: it wasn't the make or break for me. But of
Speaker 2: course you want it to be successful when someone gives
Speaker 2: you an opportunity. And I'm glad as of last Thursday
Speaker 2: it was sixteen years and I pulled the pin and
Speaker 2: I'm very happy to be doing the next thing that
Speaker 2: I'm meant to be doing. But now I'd never thought.
Speaker 2: I remember Triple M said to me, if this doesn't
Speaker 2: work this show, we're going to be the Triple M
Speaker 2: label up. We're going to keep the frequency, but we're
Speaker 2: going to call it something else because this is last
Speaker 2: Chance Saloon and I'm happy to say that it worked
Speaker 2: out really, really well, but I never really expected to
Speaker 2: have it. But once you realize you've got it, then
Speaker 2: you've got this soapbox to make a real difference, not
Speaker 2: just to tell fart jokes and have fun on the radio.
Speaker 2: You can actually stand up at some point and go
Speaker 2: I believe in something, and I wonder if our loyal
Speaker 2: audience will go with me.
Speaker 1: So you're saying you're the Triple M Messiah that if
Speaker 1: not for you? Is that what you're saying? Like you're
Speaker 1: like the Jesus of the airways.
Speaker 2: Hallelujah. There's no doubt in my mind that was the
Speaker 2: co hosts as well as me, and as well as
Speaker 2: a whole lot of as you know, smart people behind
Speaker 2: the behind the man behind the microphone.
Speaker 1: I do have a quick, quick, not that interesting story
Speaker 1: about your co host, Jude Bolton. Is he still your
Speaker 1: co host?
Speaker 2: He was up until last Thursday. My brother jud absolutely,
Speaker 2: he would.
Speaker 1: Not remember me, but I remember him so when he
Speaker 1: was a fledgling AFL player he had to play. His
Speaker 1: part of his coming into the system was playing at
Speaker 1: Port Melbourne in the VFL, right, and I was at
Speaker 1: that stage the strength and conditioning coach for that team,
Speaker 1: and I saw him run around and went, this bloke
Speaker 1: doesn't belong here. He doesn't belong here. He's like fucking
Speaker 1: way too good. So he ended up, of course, being
Speaker 1: a superstar. But how do you know, mate, when like
Speaker 1: sixteen years and it's not like things are going bad
Speaker 1: for you, Like things are still going great, radio is
Speaker 1: going great. I assume it seems to me we're in
Speaker 1: a different state. But I only hear and read great things,
Speaker 1: Like how do you know when it's time to step
Speaker 1: away from something? What's happening?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Is it emotional? Is it psychological? Is there a light bulb?
Speaker 1: Is it a gradual thing? Is it a moment in time?
Speaker 2: I think for me last year, I signed a one
Speaker 2: year deal. And every time you're in this gig, you
Speaker 2: want to get the longest deal you possibly can because
Speaker 2: that gives you security and it gives you, Oh, I've
Speaker 2: got the next two or three years lined up, empty nesters,
Speaker 2: now got your for life. My foundation is going from
Speaker 2: strength to strength. So I said, I'm going to go
Speaker 2: for a one year deal and see what happens. And
Speaker 2: I was always going to do one year that I
Speaker 2: got a little bit of like, oh God, I'm going
Speaker 2: to muck this up if I if I don't do
Speaker 2: another couple of years, I've got a bit scared. And
Speaker 2: eventually I said, nope, no, I'm doing it. And I
Speaker 2: was at Rio Tinto in northern Western Australia watching a
Speaker 2: sunrise one morning because I was up because of the
Speaker 2: time difference from Sydney, and it was a beautiful orange
Speaker 2: sky and I was about to go and see these
Speaker 2: bunch of miners and talk about mental fitness, and I went,
Speaker 2: I feel alive. I feel this is what I should
Speaker 2: be doing. And I kept thinking about all the content
Speaker 2: for the radio show that I had to do the
Speaker 2: next time I was on it, and I thought, you
Speaker 2: know what, I got two masters now, and I'm not
Speaker 2: probably doing justice to either. So at one point he's
Speaker 2: got to a call. So I rang the missus and
Speaker 2: she said go for it, and so yeah, I got
Speaker 2: your for life now. As my foundation is my full
Speaker 2: time gig. I'm just back from Perth this morning, where
Speaker 2: I've been there for the weekend and I love doing that.
Speaker 2: I'm going to miss the radio. I'm going to miss
Speaker 2: my team. And it's never say never, right, It's just
Speaker 2: for the time being. That's that's what I've decided.
Speaker 1: Okay, So tell us about gotcha for life?
Speaker 2: I lost a maid of mine, a mentor. He took
Speaker 2: his own life on the day that his third and
Speaker 2: final child finished their final exams.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And I did nothing about it. For many many years.
Speaker 2: I had worked with him. He was my mentor, father figure,
Speaker 2: loved him and seemed to be type of bloke that
Speaker 2: we all know that just ticks every box look and bloke,
Speaker 2: married children, status inside of work, outside of work, had
Speaker 2: it all and absolutely not just all for six. I
Speaker 2: did nothing about it for many years, and then eventually
Speaker 2: I spoke about him on my Brecky radio show team
Speaker 2: on Triple M and Sydney, and the next ninety minutes
Speaker 2: people rang up saying me too, I've got a story
Speaker 2: like that. And it made me realize how many people
Speaker 2: worry alone and this man up, shut up is not
Speaker 2: working for us. And then I looked at the stats
Speaker 2: around suicide and depression and anxiety and I couldn't believe it.
Speaker 2: So I was able to get some money from the
Speaker 2: ABC did a show called man Up, which challenged masculinity
Speaker 2: and why we lose so many blokes to suicide. And
Speaker 2: then off the back of that, my wife and I
Speaker 2: literally in this room here at our home started gotcha
Speaker 2: for life, and I just want everyone to find someone
Speaker 2: who's got you for life. You can have that, Watson,
Speaker 2: all conversation with These conversations can change your life, but
Speaker 2: we don't know how to have them. So we need
Speaker 2: to learn how to have these conversations of gravity. We're
Speaker 2: very comfortable in banter because we practiced that. Yes, so
Speaker 2: this emotional muscle in our melon needs to be worked
Speaker 2: and I call it mental fitness rather than mental health.
Speaker 2: And I want to have a positive conversation around this
Speaker 2: and get the suicide breat down to zero. At the moment,
Speaker 2: we lose nine Aussies a day and we have one
Speaker 2: attempt every eight minutes. So I don't want to live
Speaker 2: in Australia like that. So got your flight. We started.
Speaker 2: We've raised just over twenty million bucks, no government funding. Wow,
Speaker 2: it's all mums and dads five bucks, ten bucks, twenty bucks,
Speaker 2: and a couple of big corporations who have gone I
Speaker 2: love your simple, less clinical way of looking at mental fitness,
Speaker 2: so we're going to get behind you.
Speaker 1: That is amazing, mate, Those numbers are bloody incredible twenty
Speaker 1: million dollars. And I know this is not about you,
Speaker 1: but well done you, I mean that is and I
Speaker 1: know you're not doing it forraccolades or recognition or attention
Speaker 1: or approval, but fuck, that's amazing. And yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it is interesting that what you said. It's like, I
Speaker 1: really I think you said something like a practical approach.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, there's so much especially when it comes
Speaker 1: to mental health. There's so much research and more research,
Speaker 1: and let's throw money at research and let's do another
Speaker 1: fucking study and let's come out with some more findings
Speaker 1: from this, and we need all of that. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, give someone a fucking hug, have a chat,
Speaker 1: have a conversation, ask someone how they feel, and so
Speaker 1: why has it been so successful? Like what is it that?
Speaker 1: Why does it work where so many don't.
Speaker 2: What you said is right, Clinical is not the way
Speaker 2: to go. Human is the way to go. And especially
Speaker 2: when you talk to men, as soon as you talk
Speaker 2: about mental health, they feel like they're about to be
Speaker 2: told off. You said, there's something wrong with me, and
Speaker 2: that's not the case at all. In fact, we've just
Speaker 2: been taught to man up and shut up and get
Speaker 2: on with it. And it's just wrong. Every TV ad
Speaker 2: we see, every movie, TV show, it's all about the
Speaker 2: bloke dealing with the stuff and getting on with it.
Speaker 2: You know. It's like, it's just not what it's like
Speaker 2: in reality. And it's not just a men's issue. It
Speaker 2: started off that way for sure. We lose seven men
Speaker 2: a day in Australia, we lose two women. Most of
Speaker 2: the people that are attempt to women. So this is
Speaker 2: a problem that's a human issue. I did a TED
Speaker 2: talk in Vancouver the last couple of years and I'm like,
Speaker 2: every single person is the same, no matter what color,
Speaker 2: what race, what language you speak. We're all human beings
Speaker 2: and we need connection and we need to feel confident
Speaker 2: to stick your hand up and ask for help. And
Speaker 2: we've been told basically all our lives that that is weak.
Speaker 2: And if you had a process that led you to
Speaker 2: what we get, you would change that process in business.
Speaker 2: So why aren't we changing it in life? I use
Speaker 2: the World Health Organization numbers when I did my TED talk,
Speaker 2: nineteen hundred and twenty people a day take their life
Speaker 2: in forty thousand attempt Now, I don't want to live
Speaker 2: in in a world like that. I've got three children
Speaker 2: with empty nesters now, kid's two in London, one in Canada.
Speaker 2: I want them to live their life and feel that
Speaker 2: they can talk to someone warts and all find that
Speaker 2: village of people around you. See, you're not worrying alone
Speaker 2: about stuff. So let's keep it as simple as that.
Speaker 2: To keep it as simple as that, it's not clinical. Well,
Speaker 2: it's not mental health. It's mental fitness, just like our
Speaker 2: physical fitness. We can give you exercises to work on
Speaker 2: it to get better. And it's not easy, believe me,
Speaker 2: it's not easy. But start with a simple who are
Speaker 2: my people? Yes, my village, who's my tribe? Who's my team?
Speaker 2: And get see him on board with you know what.
Speaker 2: I'm going to come to you with some stuff because
Speaker 2: I'm bumbling and fumbling my way through here. I've got
Speaker 2: some stuff worked out, other stuff not so much. Can
Speaker 2: you do the same with me? And that way our
Speaker 2: little village will always look after each other. It seems simple,
Speaker 2: but it's bloody hard to do to get the words
Speaker 2: out to ask for that help. They get stuck here.
Speaker 2: We need to we need to get people to have
Speaker 2: those conbos.
Speaker 1: He's not quite passionate enough. Tif isy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he needs to work on that.
Speaker 1: It needs to fire up. He needs to find some
Speaker 1: passion because I'm getting nothing made. No, I fucking love it.
Speaker 1: It's great, it's great. It's like, this is what I love.
Speaker 1: Like I said to you, and you didn't need me
Speaker 1: to brief you, but I said everyone before, with most guests,
Speaker 1: nearly every guest, I say, it's not an interview, it's
Speaker 1: a conversation. And that's what I love. You know what
Speaker 1: else is? And this one comes any.
Speaker 2: Surprise to you.
Speaker 1: But speaking of research, there's lots of research out now
Speaker 1: suggesting that, Like when so my background as an exercise scientist, right,
Speaker 1: I'll talk about health and wellness and fitness, and you know,
Speaker 1: talk a lot about lifestyle and sleep and nutrition and
Speaker 1: exercise and the relationship between that those variables and longevity
Speaker 1: and health span and immune system. And what we now
Speaker 1: know is that loneliness and disconnection and mental and emotional
Speaker 1: devastation are more problematic from a physical health point of
Speaker 1: view than bad lifestyle behaviors. You know, it's like being lonely,
Speaker 1: feeling unseen, unloved, unwanted, unvalued. That actually has a real
Speaker 1: physical consequence in terms of people's predisposition to getting sick
Speaker 1: and diseased and even their immune system as we can
Speaker 1: because everything psychologically or mentally we can say emotionally and
Speaker 1: physiologically is intertwined. And so when you connect with the
Speaker 1: person inside the body, not the body, but connect with
Speaker 1: the human you know, then you're actually not ondoing the
Speaker 1: obvious thing, which is supporting them emotionally and mentally, but
Speaker 1: also you're literally doing something good for their physical health,
Speaker 1: which people don't really think about too much.
Speaker 2: I love the link between the physical fitness and the
Speaker 2: mental fitness, and that's what I talked to kids about.
Speaker 2: We saw over two hundred thousand kids last year doing programs,
Speaker 2: and when you talk about mental fitness, you see them
Speaker 2: nodding along. Yeah, we've just started to mentally fit primary
Speaker 2: schools program. We've got four schools, we'll have twenty next year.
Speaker 2: Kids are nodding along. They get it, and then they
Speaker 2: start making a little song up where they can do
Speaker 2: their muscles like that around mental fitness, and it just
Speaker 2: connects people. And I think we're going to learn from
Speaker 2: the youngsters. The oldies will learn from the youngsters with
Speaker 2: this because there's so much better than we were. And
Speaker 2: I love the thought of that. I love the thought
Speaker 2: of mental fitness being a subject at school. So many
Speaker 2: subjects that are there because they've always been there, because
Speaker 2: that's what we do. We tick a box to get
Speaker 2: to the end, to get us a mark, to get
Speaker 2: us into an exam, or get us into a unicorse,
Speaker 2: or get us into whatever. Let's start having some practical
Speaker 2: subjects that actually help the boys and girls, the men
Speaker 2: and the women. You know, That's that's what drives me nuts,
Speaker 2: is that I feel like it's an approach that we
Speaker 2: can deal with and we're just not doing it enough.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree. My PhD research is around, loosely
Speaker 1: around understanding others, you know, understanding. So there's a thing
Speaker 1: in psychology called theory of mind, which just means your ability,
Speaker 1: my ability to be able to understand someone else's version
Speaker 1: of reality, essentially their psychological and or emotional version of
Speaker 1: right now, not necessarily agree with it or align with it,
Speaker 1: but understand it. And you know, I think Stephen Covey
Speaker 1: and a bunch of others said, seek first to understand
Speaker 1: and then to be understood, Right, is it like when
Speaker 1: I can understand you, like I work with addx and alcoholics,
Speaker 1: many of them over the years, and I've never had
Speaker 1: booze and I've never had drugs. But because I've spent
Speaker 1: so much time with people struggling with addiction, I understand them,
Speaker 1: I love them, and I don't need to drink or
Speaker 1: use to be able to connect because I you know.
Speaker 1: And that's that. If you just come from that place
Speaker 1: of not trying to judge, not trying to evaluate, not
Speaker 1: trying to label, but just understand, knowing that you won't
Speaker 1: align on everything with people, it just opens a door
Speaker 1: and it opens this conduit for connection. And when people
Speaker 1: feel seen and loved, even though they might not live
Speaker 1: the values you live or the lifestyle you live, like
Speaker 1: that creates something special that, as you said, in all
Speaker 1: the clinical stuff doesn't really happen.
Speaker 2: I mean curiosity to go on top of what you
Speaker 2: just did there, which of course I agree with, and
Speaker 2: I tip my lid to you for working in that
Speaker 2: area curiosity. As soon as I started becoming curious rather
Speaker 2: than oh no, that's not the way it is. It's
Speaker 2: like I lived in this bubble for years, you know,
Speaker 2: me losing my friend and going on this journey and
Speaker 2: starting the man Up program and having enough guts to
Speaker 2: talk about it on radio and to realize how many
Speaker 2: other people worry alone this whole journey. Now I'm curious
Speaker 2: to find out why people are doing certain things, or
Speaker 2: why they feel a certain way, or why they say
Speaker 2: a certain way. Where As before I lived in this
Speaker 2: bubble where I was very judgmental and my parenting was
Speaker 2: old school, because that's what I've learned from my mum
Speaker 2: and dad. So yeah, that opening it up to curiosity
Speaker 2: is well. I think made my life so much better
Speaker 2: and has given me an opportunity, I think to understand
Speaker 2: and work better with people, which will allow me to
Speaker 2: make gotcha more successful?
Speaker 1: Isn't it interesting? Mate? When you grow up in a
Speaker 1: certain paradigm or a certain and kind of culture or
Speaker 1: collective mindset, which we all do, right, We've all got parents,
Speaker 1: We all grew up in a particular social group or
Speaker 1: cultural or religious or whatever, and essentially your worldview is
Speaker 1: their worldview. You know, by the time you're twenty, you
Speaker 1: think and believe essentially what your parents thought and believed.
Speaker 1: Because we for the most part, we don't choose our beliefs,
Speaker 1: they just become our beliefs. You know, almost like by
Speaker 1: cognitive osmosis, we just absorbed them, right. But then you
Speaker 1: get to the point where I'm listening to a really
Speaker 1: interesting book at the moment. Do you know what's his name?
Speaker 1: Is it? Tom Tilley?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I know Tom? Yeah he is. He's a media guy.
Speaker 2: You're talking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So he wrote a book called Speaking in Tongues,
Speaker 1: and it's really interesting about him growing up in this
Speaker 1: very strict Pentecostal you know, not Pentecostal, but very orthodox,
Speaker 1: you know church with anyway, the whole thing, which is
Speaker 1: not totally dissimis and not dissimilar to my story. So
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated with it. But just this idea of what
Speaker 1: do I know or what do I think or what
Speaker 1: do I believe that that hasn't been programmed into me?
Speaker 1: Like what if you can overcome? Like what where does
Speaker 1: my programming and finish finish? And where do I start?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Then you know that I feel like you start to
Speaker 1: think for yourself and look at the world through a
Speaker 1: different lens, one other than the one that's been created
Speaker 1: for you.
Speaker 2: Yeah. That's a really good point, really good point, I
Speaker 2: think personally, certainly in that first twenty odd years or so.
Speaker 2: I was one of those kids. My dad left the
Speaker 2: family home when I was quite young, I realized and
Speaker 2: that he left my mum for a man. I didn't
Speaker 2: work that out until I was in my late teens.
Speaker 2: I was just jump into the box, right, I'm safe
Speaker 2: in the box. I will get my Mirite certificate at
Speaker 2: the end of term, I will make the team. If
Speaker 2: I go to practice, I will do all that stuff.
Speaker 2: And it's probably from my early twenties where I started
Speaker 2: to try to work stuff out for myself and got
Speaker 2: a bit more curious, and then certainly from forty five
Speaker 2: and I'm fifty six in December. The last ten years,
Speaker 2: this journey I've been on, I've certainly stripped back a
Speaker 2: lot of the stuff, but I think was just put
Speaker 2: into me. And I've actually now got to the point
Speaker 2: where I can teach my children what I've gone through,
Speaker 2: and I'm very open for them to have a different opinion.
Speaker 2: I suppose that's something that didn't happen in our generation,
Speaker 2: when we were more just sort of sheepish.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm only thirty two, so I don't know what
Speaker 1: you're talking about, But okay, sure hard, you know I've
Speaker 1: done it hard. Bro, I've done a lot of trauma.
Speaker 2: Something wrong with this zoom it's really quite working.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Tip's only twenty one, she's at a shocker, so.
Speaker 2: Don't very involved.
Speaker 1: All right, all right, I think we're both throwing me
Speaker 1: under the bus and I fucking love it. So tell
Speaker 1: me one thing in this whole kind of journey of
Speaker 1: doing new things and learning new things and unlearning old things,
Speaker 1: what's something you needed to unlearn to build what you've built?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, certainly the most important thing that I talk
Speaker 2: about all the time is don't worry alone. And there's
Speaker 2: so many men and women, boys and girls that I
Speaker 2: talk to that worry alone all the time, and they
Speaker 2: don't quite know how to not worry alone about it.
Speaker 2: It's so embedded in their gut that they've pushed it
Speaker 2: down so much that's got to the point where they
Speaker 2: don't know how to actually communicate that to someone that
Speaker 2: they need the help. And also they don't feel they've
Speaker 2: got permission to ask for the help. So breaking that
Speaker 2: particular thing down will be a huge part of building
Speaker 2: mental fitness, I believe. And there's been moments where I've
Speaker 2: bumbled and fumbled and with not running out of my
Speaker 2: nose and tears running out of my eyes. Actually got
Speaker 2: something out to a group of mates and they've just
Speaker 2: all stopped and gone, mate, I had no idea. I
Speaker 2: thought you were flying, or I thought you had that
Speaker 2: part of your life dealt with. We know you've always
Speaker 2: working on stuff, but we really thought that wasn't an
Speaker 2: issue for you. And then, of course the first sentence
Speaker 2: I get out is the hardest, and everything else then
Speaker 2: becomes easier, especially when you've got people around you that
Speaker 2: you love. I've spent so much time in my life
Speaker 2: building this village of mates that I can have these
Speaker 2: warts and all conversations with and there's no judgment. And
Speaker 2: they all don't agree with me, they all throw up
Speaker 2: different curve balls at me, but the conversation is real
Speaker 2: and it's with love and that sort of stuff, and
Speaker 2: that's what I believe we need. We talk in the
Speaker 2: time all the time around Australia. We've got all these mates, mates, mates, mates. Well,
Speaker 2: we've got people we drink with, we've got people we
Speaker 2: go to the footy with, we go people we party with.
Speaker 2: But how many people do we actually have in our
Speaker 2: lives that you can actually go I need your help
Speaker 2: over here and having those real conversations. And it's not
Speaker 2: because we don't necessarily want to that we don't know
Speaker 2: how to do it. Are you okay? You came up
Speaker 2: with the slogan, and I love are you Okay? Don't
Speaker 2: get me wrong. I work with them a lot around
Speaker 2: their time of year, and it says a conversation can
Speaker 2: save a life. Absolutely it can. But how do you
Speaker 2: have the conversation? How do you start the conversation? That's
Speaker 2: what gotcha life is trying to do, and that's what
Speaker 2: I'm very, very proud of. But to answer you, that's
Speaker 2: a long way of answering that question, I suppose, But
Speaker 2: really it's getting vulnerable and leading with vulnerability rather than thinking,
Speaker 2: oh no, I'm not going to do that because that's
Speaker 2: traditionally not the way to do it. Nah, that's not
Speaker 2: for me, and that's not for the world I'm trying
Speaker 2: to help change.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. I think something that people find
Speaker 1: interesting about people like you, And I could be wrong,
Speaker 1: but myself, I do a lot of corporate speaking. I'm
Speaker 1: in front of audiences more than a hundred times a year,
Speaker 1: so I'm in front of groups, big groups, little groups,
Speaker 1: and when I tell people that I'm insecure, I'm an overthinker,
Speaker 1: or I've got self doubt, or I can self sabotage,
Speaker 1: or you know, like people think because people like you
Speaker 1: and I paps are articulate and we can string a
Speaker 1: few words together and we can do what we do
Speaker 1: with some sense of competence and confidence that you don't
Speaker 1: have any doubt or any fear or I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm just as insecure as ever. Just I'm just fucking
Speaker 1: great at I can string a few words together. It
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that there's no self doubt or self loathing
Speaker 1: or imposter syndrome. That shit, shit happens all the time.
Speaker 1: But for me, it's been able to co manage, you know,
Speaker 1: the emotional stuff which is fear based, with also the data,
Speaker 1: the knowledge that well, Craig, you can do this because
Speaker 1: you've done it before and you're not the best, but
Speaker 1: you're not terrible.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So it's like, because I think some people think, oh,
Speaker 1: if people knew what went on in my head, ah,
Speaker 1: people I'd think I was this or that, But that's
Speaker 1: essentially all of us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had it coming on to your show today.
Speaker 2: So a little bit of research that my team did
Speaker 2: with you is that it's a top rated science podcast, right,
Speaker 2: and that whole word science is like, oh god, I
Speaker 2: haven't done that since I've been at school, and throw
Speaker 2: all these cuples at me that I won't be able
Speaker 2: to explain in the way that I like to explain it,
Speaker 2: and will his podcast listeners, his loyal listeners not like
Speaker 2: the fact that I'm not sort of clinical or scientist
Speaker 2: in that sort of way. So that was one thing
Speaker 2: I had this morning. Also at the moment at Gotcha
Speaker 2: for Life, we're building a team of speakers that can
Speaker 2: go out and chat. They're more facilitators because it's back
Speaker 2: and forth. But the best thing I ever did was
Speaker 2: actually say to them how scared I get. And it's
Speaker 2: true scared when I get up in front of people,
Speaker 2: or the thought of getting up in people. The actual
Speaker 2: getting up doesn't seem to be that bad in the end.
Speaker 2: I remember getting up in front of a big crowd
Speaker 2: once and I was petrified all the way there, you know,
Speaker 2: had a little bit of road rage on the way
Speaker 2: there because I wasn't thinking clearly and all that. And
Speaker 2: then I got to the place and I walked up
Speaker 2: and I shook the hand of the organizer, and she said, good, Hey,
Speaker 2: I can't wait to hear you speaking. Everything just flowed
Speaker 2: and I'm like, why do I put myself through all
Speaker 2: this mental trauma? No, you can do it. You've done
Speaker 2: it before. And talk about imposter syndrome. There's people that
Speaker 2: I know that are super famous who go through exactly
Speaker 2: the same thing, Like when is this ride going to finish?
Speaker 2: When someone going to just push me off the board
Speaker 2: and go, Okay, you've had your fun, but we've actually
Speaker 2: worked out that you're not very good at this. It's
Speaker 2: just that's just the way it is. And I think
Speaker 2: if we can conquer that emotion that we put ourselves
Speaker 2: through before we actually do it, you'd be a billionaire
Speaker 2: if you could bottle that.
Speaker 1: And I think it's also it's okay to go I'm scared,
Speaker 1: and that's all right. I feel like a fraud, and
Speaker 1: that's all right. I don't like if I sit at
Speaker 1: home and until I feel fucking good enough, I'm never
Speaker 1: doing any I'm never leaving the house.
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree with you more. And when I told
Speaker 2: that group of got to fight guys and girls that
Speaker 2: we're building at the moment, that's the one thing they
Speaker 2: remembered from like an hour's chat was like, get you
Speaker 2: get scared You're worried about what you're going to do,
Speaker 2: And I'm like absolutely, and they went, well, thank god
Speaker 2: for that, because I feel the same way that we
Speaker 2: can then work on it and it'll be okay. It's
Speaker 2: that leading with vulnerability piece that I keep going back to.
Speaker 1: So funny that your team told you it's high rating
Speaker 1: sign show and I'm about as sophisticated as a fucking moccasin,
Speaker 1: So that's it's still it's funny.
Speaker 2: It's funny you should say that because when we had
Speaker 2: the chat with Fifth before we all started, I soon
Speaker 2: realized that all those worries I had, I shouldn't have
Speaker 2: worried about.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. So I feel like this could be wrong,
Speaker 1: But just looking from from the outside looking in, I
Speaker 1: feel like you're moving away, sort of moving away from
Speaker 1: career and moving into purpose.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Purpose is key for me. I felt like I've
Speaker 2: moved there. But as I said earlier, I've had two
Speaker 2: masters for too long. And you can't have a top
Speaker 2: rated drive show and not be one hundred percent at
Speaker 2: the races, and you can't be running a small foundation
Speaker 2: that's trying to play with the big guns. Yea without
Speaker 2: your full attention. But the purpose part of me really
Speaker 2: started when I said yes to the Man Up program,
Speaker 2: because that was the next step from me just talking
Speaker 2: to my very company radio audience sitting in my studio.
Speaker 2: All of a sudden, I was out there asking questions
Speaker 2: of Ossie's and not knowing what the answers would be.
Speaker 2: And that's when I realized that this is not just
Speaker 2: a job, This is not just hosting a TV show.
Speaker 2: This this is the real deal. And now eight years
Speaker 2: on from that, I'm so pleased that I had the
Speaker 2: to keep going for it. You know, and your work
Speaker 2: in suicide prevention. I don't think there's a more important
Speaker 2: conversation to be had. So that's that purpose comes to
Speaker 2: you real quick.
Speaker 1: Within the context of the charity. It's charity, right, so
Speaker 1: I call it that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, foundation charity foundation?
Speaker 1: Do you have KPIs like in a business like do
Speaker 1: you have do you say this is where we I
Speaker 1: don't know the particular outcomes that you want to did
Speaker 1: it just put on the Doris Day filter.
Speaker 2: Tip, I think so, I don't know what's going on there.
Speaker 2: So it's coming back is that maybe it's bloody hot
Speaker 2: in Sydney at the moment, so it might be just
Speaker 2: a bit hot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, liked do you kind of run it in
Speaker 1: a way like a business, not in terms of trying
Speaker 1: to make dough for yourself, but in terms of the
Speaker 1: way that it runs.
Speaker 2: Definitely, like I reckon the first few years, it was
Speaker 2: all about whatever money comes in, money's got to go
Speaker 2: out straight out to the people that we're that we
Speaker 2: have trusted to put the work in. And then there
Speaker 2: was a shift a couple of years ago where we
Speaker 2: have to actually build the foundation to make sure that
Speaker 2: we have the right foundations in the foundation. That's a
Speaker 2: lot of foundations to make sure that we're around for
Speaker 2: the next whatever. And it's not just going to be
Speaker 2: me and my wife, it's going to be the next
Speaker 2: lot of people and so forth. So there's a lot
Speaker 2: that goes into that, and there's a lot of feeling
Speaker 2: of like, oh, I want to give every cent away. Well,
Speaker 2: I'll do much better work in five years time if
Speaker 2: I put some good people in there with me now
Speaker 2: working with it. So that's the dilemma that you have
Speaker 2: as long as you are giving most of the money
Speaker 2: away more than most. Then I'm fine with it. It's
Speaker 2: the way of making sure that you are bigger in
Speaker 2: the future to make even more of an impact.
Speaker 1: I reckon if you're building you know, you're building a
Speaker 1: charity or a foundation, or a business or a program,
Speaker 1: or you're writing a book or you're trying to get
Speaker 1: a podcast off the ground or whatever. It is like
Speaker 1: you're taking a theoretical something in your head and turning
Speaker 1: it into a real thing in the world that people
Speaker 1: can interact with. Yeah, like there are similar there. There's
Speaker 1: you know, like before the You Project, which goes okay,
Speaker 1: I had three other shows that didn't you know, and
Speaker 1: trying to and even for this the first six hundred episodes,
Speaker 1: I was losing money and so trying to figure out
Speaker 1: how do I do a good thing and not go broke?
Speaker 1: How do I how do I have something that's commercially
Speaker 1: viable but also people like it's good to listen to.
Speaker 1: It's a bit of fun. There's some good information and inspiration,
Speaker 1: but it's not you know, that whole kind of what
Speaker 1: did you get wrong? Like what did you without throwing
Speaker 1: you or anyone under the bus, what did you fuck up?
Speaker 1: And what did you think, why did I think that
Speaker 1: would work?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I suppose when you're like I've always been a
Speaker 2: one start before you're ready, because if you, like you
Speaker 2: said before, if you waited at your home, you'd never
Speaker 2: get out. You never do anything right. So you just
Speaker 2: have a crack get out there. And that's when the
Speaker 2: mistakes made. Having people that you know that our mate's
Speaker 2: involved initially as the board members or as advisors, that
Speaker 2: type of stuff. That's not the way it is now
Speaker 2: for me. If you look at my board now, there
Speaker 2: are a bunch of people that have got particular skills
Speaker 2: that they may not be the greatest mates, but they're
Speaker 2: absolutely committed to gotcha for life and so forth. So
Speaker 2: that is one thing that I did, absolutely realizing that
Speaker 2: we have to go younger, like we've been targeting fourteen, fifteen, sixteen,
Speaker 2: seventeen year olds, which is absolutely required, but we've really
Speaker 2: got to get into primary school. So we've just started
Speaker 2: that mental primary school situation. So there's just learnings as
Speaker 2: you go along. So I don't call them fuck ups
Speaker 2: as much as oh gave that a crack That worked
Speaker 2: for a lot of them, but not absolutely where we
Speaker 2: need to go now. And of course you haven't got
Speaker 2: all the money in the world right, you're literally always
Speaker 2: out like Oliver, So it's like more please. So whatever
Speaker 2: I can get with that, I've got to put into something,
Speaker 2: which means you've got to drop a few things and
Speaker 2: focus on others. But I wouldn't call the mistakes as
Speaker 2: much as just learnings along the way. And if you're
Speaker 2: not doing that, then you're probably not having enough of
Speaker 2: a crack. Like That's the other thing that I have
Speaker 2: to keep talking to people about is that we're trying
Speaker 2: to literally change the world here. Every single nation, every
Speaker 2: single culture basically has this not when it comes to
Speaker 2: being vulnerable. Yes, we have to try to change that.
Speaker 2: And where it's a little you know foundation in Australia.
Speaker 2: So how we're going to do that, Well, I get
Speaker 2: on the TED stage. That's good because millions of people
Speaker 2: watch that. That's bloody great. What else can I do?
Speaker 2: I got invited to talk to the un Well, I'm
Speaker 2: going to do that. That'll be bloody great because a
Speaker 2: few people watch that. Being authentic and real along this journey,
Speaker 2: but picking the moments to really have a crack when
Speaker 2: you've got a chance, and then hopefully not having imposter
Speaker 2: syndrome and stuffing it up, you know, hoping you have
Speaker 2: your best day when you have those moments gifted to you.
Speaker 1: Now, I had a squizze at your your podcast. I
Speaker 1: had to listen, and I don't want to be disparaging,
Speaker 1: but I feel like it's just an excuse for you
Speaker 1: to hang out with your friends. I feel like it's
Speaker 1: a bit of bullshit because it's just you and your
Speaker 1: famous fucking friends hanging out. And I'm very jealous TIV.
Speaker 1: So you know that you're a big deal when your
Speaker 1: first guest is one of the biggest movie stars in
Speaker 1: the world. Right, Well, that's just not fucking fair. That's
Speaker 1: like being on Oh I've got a podcast also, I'm
Speaker 1: on steroids.
Speaker 2: I mean, it was fun to have jack O obviously
Speaker 2: on the first one. But we've been best mates since kindergarten,
Speaker 2: and we went to Pimball Public together. Then we left
Speaker 2: there and the fourth grade and went the last two
Speaker 2: years of a prep school, then a senior school. Then
Speaker 2: we did our gap year, you know, in each other's
Speaker 2: wedding parties, godfathers to each other's firstborn. So yeah, we've
Speaker 2: I mean, Hugh Jackman obviously would be well known to
Speaker 2: your listeners, but to me, he's just literally Jacko and
Speaker 2: someone who I call a brother of another mother. And
Speaker 2: it was important to hit the podcast world with a
Speaker 2: bit of a sledgehammer, and it was nice to have him.
Speaker 2: But to be honest with you, I've enjoyed every single
Speaker 2: one of those conversations and the fact that Shaw and
Speaker 2: Partners who support me, they give ten thousand dollars to
Speaker 2: any guest, and that guest has to give it to
Speaker 2: a charity. I mean, I don't think there's another podcast
Speaker 2: in the world that has that type of thing. So
Speaker 2: of course it makes people go, well, how can I
Speaker 2: possibly say no to a forty minute conversation where I
Speaker 2: can give ten thousand dollars to a cause I love.
Speaker 2: So I'm in a very lucky situation, Craig. So don't
Speaker 2: don't don't think that I don't know.
Speaker 1: That, mate, I'm fucking with you. I listened to a
Speaker 1: couple and it's really good and we've had a few
Speaker 1: common guests. One of my favorite guests in seventeen hundred
Speaker 1: plus was Charlie Teo, and I see you had him
Speaker 1: on as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's absolute learn a tick, but he's crazy but
Speaker 2: he's opirational.
Speaker 1: Crazy man.
Speaker 2: If I had something wrong with someone that I loved
Speaker 2: or myself, I know I'd be calling.
Speaker 1: So just quickly everyone the show is called Not an
Speaker 1: Overnight Success, will wind up mate. But of course success
Speaker 1: is different things to different people, and it's not always
Speaker 1: a thing. Sometimes it's a combination of things. But from
Speaker 1: the host of Not an Overnight Success, what is success
Speaker 1: for you?
Speaker 2: That's a really good question. It's never linear, that's for sure,
Speaker 2: and that's probably what my podcast is about. You know.
Speaker 2: It's like, very rarely do you go from A to B.
Speaker 2: There's always rabbit holes and sniper shots from left, right
Speaker 2: and center. But the people that tend to succeed are
Speaker 2: the ones that never ever give up. So that has
Speaker 2: been a big part of what I'm trying to do
Speaker 2: in my life, never giving up of the dream of
Speaker 2: zero suicides. And I know that I've said that out
Speaker 2: loud plenty of times and I get how down for it.
Speaker 2: But one's too many, right, So one's too many, then
Speaker 2: it's got to be zero, and I've got to be
Speaker 2: working towards that. So tess for me is a lot
Speaker 2: of things I would like to think if you interviewed
Speaker 2: my three kids that they would say, I wouldn't want
Speaker 2: anyone else to be my dad. Yeah, and that is
Speaker 2: true success. Whether you get the same answer from my
Speaker 2: wife of thirty years, whether she'd say, oh, like I
Speaker 2: sawt of think the other day, if the person that
Speaker 2: you're sleeping with is not the most annoying person in
Speaker 2: your life and you haven't got the right one right.
Speaker 2: So that made me feel really good because I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm sure that I'm that for my wife. So there's
Speaker 2: a whole lot of things. I love being my dad,
Speaker 2: love being a good hubby. As you can tell, I
Speaker 2: can't imagine a world continuing with these suicide rates. So
Speaker 2: I'm going to do whatever I can to fix that
Speaker 2: or to help with that, and that would be success.
Speaker 2: But I've got a lot of personal stuff that I
Speaker 2: always want to be working on, and that'll keep me busy.
Speaker 1: Truly, you are an inspiration and such a good bloke
Speaker 1: and it's a pleasure for us and an honor for
Speaker 1: us to chat with you on our humble little show
Speaker 1: where Hugh Jackman is never fucking coming near this show,
Speaker 1: but we appreciate. We'll say goodbye a fair but mate,
Speaker 1: really appreciate you for having the chat on the you project.
Speaker 2: My pleasure see you, Tiff, Thanks Greg.
Speaker 1: Thank you. All right everyone, I've jumped back in, sorry
Speaker 1: about that. We were going to say goodbye, and then
Speaker 1: I realized that i'd selfishly I was thinking about my
Speaker 1: chicken sandwich, and I'd thrown Gus out the door before
Speaker 1: I could let him share with you how you can
Speaker 1: connect with him and find out what he's doing. So, mate,
Speaker 1: I apologize for that, But what would you like to
Speaker 1: share with our team?
Speaker 2: You don't need to apologize at all, mate, I was
Speaker 2: enjoying the chat. I forgot about it too, So I
Speaker 2: mean in terms of gotcha for life, it's got your
Speaker 2: for life dot org. We've got a mentally fit Jim
Speaker 2: so Mentalfitnessjim dot org, which is free. You can just
Speaker 2: click on there and or give you a little mental
Speaker 2: fitness tips and stuff. And I've also got a book
Speaker 2: coming out called Boys Do Cry, and it's about a
Speaker 2: little boy. It's sort of set for sort of three, four, five,
Speaker 2: six seven year olds, but I'm hoping the parents or
Speaker 2: the cares might get a little tip along the way.
Speaker 2: It starts with a little boy who goes to school
Speaker 2: and a space and a space shift lends on his toe,
Speaker 2: which is not a great start to your day, and
Speaker 2: then his day doesn't get any better, and it goes
Speaker 2: through a bit of a process until eventually he realizes,
Speaker 2: if I just show my emotions, my life might get
Speaker 2: a little better, or my day might get a little better.
Speaker 2: So it's only twelve bucks. You can pre order it anywhere,
Speaker 2: and I'm very proud of that that comes out in February,
Speaker 2: so there might be something for any of the listeners
Speaker 2: that have got younger kids. It's called Boys Do Cry,
Speaker 2: So yeah, any help would be great. Every single cent
Speaker 2: of that book will go straight to Gotcha for Life,
Speaker 2: so you'll be sort of helping a good cause.
Speaker 1: Mate, We appreciate you, and for the second time, thanks
Speaker 1: for being on the You Project.