1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: But I think was more about the value system more 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: than anything. And what's really interesting is that Harry embodies 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: these and the values that he embodies of this disloyalty, 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: this courage, this bravery, which then come out it Gallipoli 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: are very similar to some of the values that we 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: sort of think of as the Anzac values that came 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:23,959 Speaker 1: out of Gillipley. But in Harry's case they were very 8 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: much instilled from a young age under the Bashido code 9 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: and then being raised as a samurai obviously not without 10 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,919 Speaker 1: its hazards. He was shot and wounded eighteen times at Gallipoli. 11 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 2: I'm Jen Kelly from the Herald Son and this is 12 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 2: in Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's 13 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 2: forgotten characters. Today we'll hear the mysterious story of Harry Freme, 14 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: known as the Marvel of Gallipoli, who later went on 15 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 2: to become a spy for Australia during World War II. 16 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 2: Harry Freme was raised in Japan as a samurai, but 17 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: through a series of strange circumstances, wound up fighting for 18 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 2: a frailia at Gallipoli. His story is told in a 19 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,919 Speaker 2: new book called The Bravest Scout at Gallipoli by Ryan Butter. 20 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,919 Speaker 2: But Ryan also describes Harry as the anzac hero betrayed 21 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 2: by his nation. Today, in part one, we'll hear the 22 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:21,199 Speaker 2: story of Harry's early life in Japan and his outstanding 23 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 2: bravery at Gallipoli. Make sure you come back for part 24 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 2: two on Thursday to hear what Harry did in the 25 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 2: Second World War, including being sent to Japan as a spy. 26 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 2: Ryan believes he's uncovered a grievous historical wrong involving the 27 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 2: Japanese secret police and a cover up by the Australian government. 28 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: Here's Ryan to tell the story. Welcome back to the podcast, Ryan. 29 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Jen really happy to be back now. 30 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 2: Harry Freme was known in his life as the Marvel 31 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 2: of Gallipoli. Is such a great nickname. But one of 32 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,559 Speaker 2: the interesting points that you make is that most school 33 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 2: kids learn more about a donkey at Gallipoli than they 34 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 2: do about this man. 35 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: That was one of the amazing facts I came across 36 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,359 Speaker 1: that how well known this man was, but I'd never 37 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: heard of him. And it's not to disparage Simpson's donkey, 38 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: because that's also a fabulous story. But when you get 39 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: to read about what Harry did at Gallipoli, how he 40 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: was loved by the soldiers, who was known by the generals, 41 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: and when he came back from Gallipoli, how famous he 42 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: was here in Australia and his name was splashed across 43 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: the newspapers. And that was because he was the first 44 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: soldier act Glypoli from Australia to win the Distinguished Conduct Medal, 45 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: which at that time was almost a proxy for the 46 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 1: Victoria Cross. 47 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 2: Now we'll hear a lot more later, obviously about Harry 48 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 2: Frem's heroic actions at Gallipoli, but let's begin with his childhood. 49 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: Because during the war, Harry pretended to be from regional Canada. 50 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 2: But that couldn't have been further from the truth, could it. 51 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: No, he was actually born at Nagasaki in eighteen eighty 52 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: and to get to that birth, we've actually got to 53 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: go back to his father. So his father came out 54 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: to Australia as an eleven year old, and he was 55 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: a bit of a cad to say the least. He 56 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: got married in eighteen sixty seven to a lady called 57 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: Ellen Jane Cooka and at the time of the marriage, 58 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:29,839 Speaker 1: Ellen was pregnant and William Henry was Harry's father's name. 59 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: He left before the baby was born, and he'd had 60 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: a history of frequenting the bars of ille repute in Melbourne, 61 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: and we know all this from the divorce papers that 62 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: Ellen filed that even on the night of his wedding 63 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: he was off in the bars and cavaulting with prostitutes. 64 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: So he flees the marriage, and he flees Victoria and 65 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: he ends up in Tokyo. He gets up to Japan 66 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty seven, and it's a really interesting period 67 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: in Japan because it's basically the dawn of the Meiji era, 68 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: where it's Japan's coming out of isolation, forced out of 69 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: isolation by the Americans who sort of go to Japan 70 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: through Commodore Perry and say, we want to sign these treaties. 71 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: We want you to open up your ports, and if 72 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: you don't, we're going to go to Tokyo and burn 73 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: it down. So they kind of had no option. But 74 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: what the Japanese wanted to do, and what they'd seen 75 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: happening in Asia was that this colonization of the Western 76 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: powers of Asia, and they said, we don't want that 77 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: to happen to us. We don't want our people being 78 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: exported for labor. So to prevent that, we need to modernize. 79 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: And so when William Henry arrives in Japan, it's at 80 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: the start of this modernization phase. But of course it 81 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: also upsets the local Samurai because they're losing their power 82 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: as the class system gets wiped out. Everybody's equal, which 83 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: means the Samurai have lost a lot of their privilege 84 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: and power. Now to modernize, the Japanese said, we need 85 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: the English language. So there was all these people sort 86 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: of three or four thousand, they say, English teachers that 87 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 1: were either in Japan or went to Japan, and William 88 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: Henry reinvents himself as an English teacher. So when he 89 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: first arrived in Yokohama, he was working on a dairy, 90 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: but he then becomes an English teacher and marries one 91 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: of his students, a sixteen year old Say Kitagawa, who 92 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: was also from a samurai family and is the mother 93 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: of Harry Frame. And then Harry gets born in eighteen eighty. 94 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: Eight months later his father dies, and so you can 95 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: imagine he's half Australian, half Japanese. He's got two older siblings, 96 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: a brother and a sister, and he's being raised by 97 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: a single mother. What also happened was that when William 98 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: Henry married Say, he never got the marriage ratified by 99 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 1: the British consul. Or the British consul knew that he 100 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: was already married back in Australia, so they refused to 101 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: ratify the marriage. So what that meant was that Say 102 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: lost her Japanese citizenship when she married a foreigner, but 103 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: she never gained British citizenship, and so Harry never had 104 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: British citizenship or Japanese citizenship at that point. He would 105 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: regain his Japanese citizenship later, but that made life quite 106 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: difficult for them. So a few years later, Say remarries 107 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 1: and she marries a really interesting gentleman called Mugo Hiko Koba. 108 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: Now he was also a samurai, and he'd been involved 109 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: in a sort of an anti emperor group, and he 110 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: was involved in a rebellion. He was part of an 111 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: assassination group in the Shinpuran rebellion. But after that he's 112 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: found religion and he became a member of the Anglican Church. 113 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: And so Harry had this unusual upbringing with the stepfather 114 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: being raised on the one hand as a samurai under 115 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: the Bashido Code, which was quite a strict upbringing, but 116 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: obviously couched in these values of loyalty and honesty and bravery. 117 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: But he was also raised in the Anglican Church in 118 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: the Japanese version, Christianity had only just not long before 119 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: been permitted again in Japan after being outlawed for two 120 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: hundred years, so they were persecuted as Christians. And then 121 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: he also had a fair skin, a father who was 122 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: a cat, so his upbringing was quite difficult in Japan. 123 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 2: Okay, so tell me more. I mean, most of us 124 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 2: in Australia have just got no familiarity whatsoever with what 125 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 2: it's like to be raised as a samurai. I mean, 126 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: does that mean that you're being trained to be a warrior? 127 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: Well, sword work is part of the training, how to 128 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: use a sword, how to defend yourself. But it seems 129 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: to me more that it was a way of living 130 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: and a value system. There's a really good book that 131 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: was written around eighteen ninety nine called The Way of 132 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: the Bisheto, and it sort of goes into that there 133 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: is actually no written text about the Bashido Code and 134 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: being raised as a samurai. It's more there's a savant 135 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: that's written something, or it's following the example of a 136 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: previous samurai. But it's all about resilience in the children. 137 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: And there's these stories of how the parents would make 138 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: the children walk across snow for a couple of miles 139 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: to get to school, kind of like the old stories 140 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: that our grandparents tell us here without the snow, but 141 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: it's kind of testing these children and making them stay 142 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: up all night reading. It's yeah, but I think it 143 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: was more about the value system more than anything. And 144 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: what's really interesting is that Harry embodies these and the 145 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: values that he embodies of this loyalty, this courage, this bravery, 146 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: which then come out at Gallipoli are very similar to 147 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: some of the values that we sort of think of 148 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: as the Anzac values that came out of Gillipoli. But 149 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: in Harry's case, they were very much instilled from a 150 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: young age under the Bashido code and being raised as 151 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: a samurai. 152 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 2: Amazing. So how do you go from being raised in 153 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: a Japanese samurai family to fighting for Australia at Gallipoli. 154 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: Well, in the case of Harry, frame was a very 155 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: roundabout way and it's a part of his remarkable life. 156 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: So in eighteen ninety six, and we know this because 157 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: he wrote this to Charles Being, the official war historian. 158 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: Charles Been was fascinated with Harry after he met him 159 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: at Glipoli. But so Harry leaves in eighty nine and 160 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: he goes to England to further his Education's that's what 161 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: he says. But actually he takes to wandering, as he 162 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: says to Charles Been, and he signs up onto sailing 163 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: ships and he works for a long time as a 164 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: ship's cook, and he sails all around the world. And 165 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: we have his seamen's log book from about nineteen oh 166 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: two to nineteen twelve, and we don't have it between 167 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety six and nineteen oh two, but it's very possible. 168 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: And the story that he always told that he'd actually fought. 169 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: He fought in the Mexican Army under Porfiitio Diaz, and 170 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: he also went down to German East Africa and fought 171 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: for the Germans there. So it was almost like a 172 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: soldier of fortune. And he has these little gaps in 173 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: his seamen logs book where he looks like he's taken 174 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: off for a little bit, you know, some of his 175 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 1: cruises were three weeks and was he went all over 176 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: the world. He was India, West Indies, Argentina, Peru, China. 177 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: He'd sailed all over the world. So in nineteen oh 178 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: six he marries Edith May, and she's an english woman. 179 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: At that time there was a large population of Japanese 180 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: at Middlesbrough and they were there in the shipbuilding industry 181 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: after Japan and England had signed a Treaty of Commerce 182 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: and Navigation. So he marries Edith May, but he only 183 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: stays about three weeks and then he's back on the 184 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: ships and he's just constantly sailing, and over the next 185 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: couple of years he's probably only at home for a 186 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: couple of weeks at the time in nineteen eleven. He 187 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: finally lands in Australia in late nineteen eleven, stays a 188 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: couple of months and then returns to England. At some 189 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,599 Speaker 1: point in nineteen thirteen, he again comes back to Australia 190 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,719 Speaker 1: and without Edis May, he's just by himself, but he's 191 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,599 Speaker 1: still married and he ends up at glenn Innes and 192 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: I don't know how we ended up at glenn Innis, 193 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: but when World War One breaks out, he's actually a 194 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: horse breaker and he's breaking in horses in Glen innis 195 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: so obviously a very talented guy and that he could 196 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: sort of turn his hand to different things. Goes down 197 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: to Sydney, signs up and then he's in October he's 198 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: on the SSA freak heading to to the Middle East 199 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: into Egypt, whether than deployed to Glipoly. 200 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 2: Amazing and what happened next. 201 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: So he's part of the landing. He lands on Gallipoli 202 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: at about seven forty am on the twenty fifth of April, 203 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: and you can imagine the chaos. But of course he's 204 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: been in wars before. He's a scout, so he's sort 205 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: of the reconnaissance and he's basically Charles Been describes him 206 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: as being the most ubiquitous soldier at the landing, in 207 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: that he was everywhere. He was running around, he was 208 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: taking water to advance positions, he was rounding up shirkers 209 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: as they were called, or stragglers, which I think is 210 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: a bit harsh because honestly, it was absolute chaos on 211 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 1: the beach that morning. In the first few days, he 212 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: was holding different positions, he was fighting, he was going back, 213 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: he was taking weapons and tools to people that was 214 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: sort of stranded. There was no firing line. It was 215 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: sort of like all patches of men just trying to 216 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: get up the get up the slopes, but Harry was 217 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: kind of everywhere. And it was for that efforts on 218 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: the first morning he won his Distinguished Conduct medal. And 219 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: what had happened. He'd gone ahead, he'd found a trench 220 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: which was full of Australians and they'd been cut off 221 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: and they were held down by enemy fire and they 222 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: couldn't move, and they'd run out of water. It was 223 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: obviously quite hot. They were in a pretty desperate situation 224 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: and they're at the point where they either have to 225 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: surrender or be killed. And so Harry jumped out of 226 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: the trench, ran back down to the Australian positions in behind, 227 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 1: got water, got tools, went back up and relieved that position. 228 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: That allowed them to hold that position. That position then 229 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: became Quinn's Post, and Charles been rite later that Quinn's 230 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: post was the most advanced Anzac position and it was 231 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: kind of the key to the whole defenses, and that 232 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: position would never have been held without Harry Freem and 233 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: his efforts on that morning and the end of that 234 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: afternoon to do that. Once the once that initial landing 235 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: and invasion went into trench warfare were then his talents 236 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: as a scout really came about, and the troops knew 237 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: him as the Mexican scout now because he'd fought in Mexico. 238 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 1: He quickly got rid of his sort of the Australian 239 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: Army issue paraphernalia. And by that I mean he stopped 240 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: using the rifle, the three or three rifle, and he 241 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: wore two revolvers, one on each hip. He had a 242 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: third revolver under his arm pit. He had a bowie 243 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: knife tucked down into his boot. He wore a straight 244 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: brimmed hat, he didn't have sort of the slouch hat 245 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: with the one side up, and he wore a bandanna, 246 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: a really distinctive blue and white bandanna that a lot 247 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: of souliers mentioned if they saw Harry Freeman always had 248 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: on his bandanna. Now, his role as a scout at 249 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: Gallipli was every night he would crawl out of the 250 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: Australian trenches and he would map and sort of reconna 251 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: the Turkish trenches where the guns were, where the troop 252 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: strength were. And you can imagine how dangerous that was 253 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: going out up to the sides of the trenches. He 254 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: referred to himself as a peeping tom and that he'd 255 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: sneak up on his belly and peer over into the 256 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: Turkish trenches at night. Now obviously not with its hazards. 257 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: He was shot and wounded eighteen times. 258 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. But so it was he taken out 259 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 2: of action with those wounds. 260 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: No, I can imagine, you know, when they say in 261 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: the in the files, it'll say who's wounded. It could 262 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: have been a flesh wound, It could have been a graze. 263 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: He got shot through the hand, he got shot through 264 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: the toe. At one he had an operation to remove 265 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: shrapnel from his thigh, which must have been quite a 266 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: serious one. And later on back in Australia, he's visited 267 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: by a journalist and the journalist rights that his body's 268 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: just covered in scars. So yeah, quite a gallant guy, 269 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: but wasn't taken out. He was finally taken off the 270 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: peninsula during the loan Pine attacks in August. He participated 271 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: in them, but he was not in the actual fighting. 272 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: He participated in digging communication trenches up to the newly 273 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: held positions after the initial Loan pine attacks. But then 274 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: when that was settled into those positions, he was again 275 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: up out of a trench looking for machine gun inmplacements 276 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: when he got hit by seventy five millimeters shell smashed 277 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: his shoulder, fell back into the trench, broke his collar bone, 278 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: and that was his war over. 279 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 2: We'll be back soon to hear more about Harry's incredible bravery. 280 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 2: So stay with us. 281 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: Now. 282 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 2: Tell us about that nickname, the Marvel of Gallipoli. Did 283 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: Charles bean coin that one? Or just an anonymous journalist 284 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 2: back in Australia? 285 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: That was just an anonymous journalist back in Australia Because 286 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: he'd won the Distinguished Conduct Medal, and he won it 287 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: very early. His name was put in all the newspapers 288 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: because you can imagine everyone's sitting back in Australia waiting 289 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: to hear how their troops are performing, and then they 290 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: hear this story that this Harry Frame has won the 291 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: Distinguished Conduct Medal. Nobody knows that he's Japanese born. Everyone 292 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: thinks Harry Freme, he's probably a good white guy from 293 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: glenn Innis, so everyone's very proud of him. And then 294 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: when the soldiers come back a lot of people are 295 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: talking about him. People being interviewed, they mentioned him. There's 296 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: a story that he was actually captured by the Turkish 297 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: troops one day. He was going into the trenches and 298 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: he got captured, and as he's being led back away 299 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: from the front, he breaks free, shoots the guards that 300 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: are escorting him back, and makes it back to the 301 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: Australian lines. And so that story is told by another 302 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: soldier to a journalist when he gets back to Australia. 303 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: But also any attack that was going to take place, 304 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: the generals would come to Harry and say, you know, 305 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: what's the best way to do. How do we go? 306 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: What's the land like? Because he knew that land between 307 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: the Australian trenches and the Turkish trenches so well. It's 308 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: known as no man's land and that was his area. 309 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: So he was front and center of all the planning 310 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: and all the sort of intelligence work on Gallipoli. Later on, 311 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: when Charles Bean's running his history of World War One, 312 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: he actually writes to Harry and says, can you draw 313 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: me a map of the Turkish trenches of this particular 314 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: section where he was operating, And Harry was able to 315 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: draw that. So soldiers talk of the word freme, of 316 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: the name Freme being a household word at Gallipoli. He 317 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: was that well known. And what's really interesting, he was 318 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,959 Speaker 1: known by the soldiers, but he was also known by 319 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: the generals, and as you can imagine, the British Australian 320 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: generals and the rank and file, there's always those tensions 321 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: when you talk about the history of Gallipoli. 322 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, in our episode on Charles Bean, we were 323 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: told that he was a very dry writer. If anything, 324 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 2: he was too dry, So he probably would have he 325 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 2: probably would have said that the marvel of Gallipoli was hyperbole. 326 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 2: He probably wouldn't have used an expression like that, I 327 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 2: can imagine. 328 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: But he did. In his official history he refers to 329 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: Harry Frem as the finest scout at Gallipoli. 330 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is a big statement for him, I would 331 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 2: imagine praise. 332 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: He was fascinated. He went and spent two days with 333 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: Harry seven and eighth June nineteen fifteen. He went and 334 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: spoke to Harry. And it's quite interesting because Bean was 335 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: also a public and outspoken supporter of the White Australia policy, 336 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: and Harry told him that he was Canadian. But Bean 337 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: actually writes in his diary he says he's Canadian, but 338 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: he's obviously Chinese or Japanese. But despite that, there's probably 339 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: five or six mentions of Harry's exploits in Bean's official history, 340 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: and he kept in touch with him. And I've actually 341 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: been really lucky enough. There's a lady, Susan McGregor who 342 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: holds Harry's personal collection and his handwritten letters from Charles 343 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: Bean to Harry after the war, and it's my dear 344 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 1: Harry and my dear Frame, and he's very highly regarded. 345 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: So now, did Harry cover up his Japanese heritage throughout 346 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 2: his whole time in the Australian Army. 347 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: He did to certain people, and to others he didn't. 348 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: So when he came back to Australia there was obviously 349 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: a lot of press interest in him, and in those 350 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: interviews he said he was from Canada, but to close 351 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: friends he said that he was Japanese and they knew 352 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 1: that story. But what's also interesting is when he came 353 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: back he went into the soldier settlement scheme here and 354 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: he was obviously Harry Frame of Glipoli, Canadian born x 355 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: Sea Cook, ex Horse Break, et cetera. But at the 356 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: same time, because of what was happening with Japanese relations. 357 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: There was the Australian Intelligence School and they recruited Harry 358 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: to teach Japanese to their offices. So he was kind 359 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 1: of living a double life very early on. So by 360 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: day he was sort of at the Soldier settlement and 361 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: then he'd catch the train down from Bathist where it was, 362 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: and then he was teaching Japanese to the Australian intelligence 363 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: officials because and this was about nineteen sixteen nineteen seventeen. 364 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: Because even though Japan was an Australian ally during the 365 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: First World War and the ship that Harry sailed on 366 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: to the Middle East was actually escorted by a Japanese warship, 367 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: by nineteen sixteen nineteen seventeen, Australians feared a Japanese invasion 368 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: and so it was quite unusual for it would have 369 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: been an unusual situation for Harry to come back to Australia, 370 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: the country he had fought for, and the fear was 371 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: that japan were about to invade, even though they were 372 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: an ally. To give you an idea of how difficult 373 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: it would have been for Harry coming back to Australia 374 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixteen with the fear of Japanese invasion. Was 375 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,959 Speaker 1: that during the debates around conscription, both sides of the debate, 376 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: the ones that wanted conscription and the ones that didn't, 377 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,239 Speaker 1: all used Japan as an argument. So the ones that 378 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: wanted conscription said, We're going to be invaded by Japan 379 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: at some point, so we need to send as many 380 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: people to help Europe now so that when Japan invades, 381 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: they'll help us in return. And the ones who are 382 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: against conscription said, Japan's going to invade, why would we 383 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: send people over to Europe. We need everyone here at home. 384 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,479 Speaker 1: So for Harry, he's probably thinking, you know, I've been 385 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: raised in Japan, where I was kind of an outsider 386 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 1: as a foreign having a foreign father, and now I'm 387 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 1: back here and I've sort of sacrificed such a lot 388 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: for the Australian Army at Gallipoli, and now I'm also 389 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: on the outside back in Australia. So it would have 390 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: been a very difficult time for him. So he had to, 391 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: I think create another identity for himself, and I think 392 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: that identity was Harry Frame. 393 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 2: Now Bean said that he thought he was Japanese or Chinese. 394 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 2: So what did Obviously our listeners can't see photos, although 395 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 2: we will put some photos of Harry in with the 396 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,479 Speaker 2: story that accompanies this podcast online. So can you explain 397 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 2: what Harry looked like? 398 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was about six foot tall. He's described as 399 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: in the Terminology of the Day. He was tall, dark 400 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: and live. He had a tattoo of a snake down 401 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: his right arm. His features were very much Eurasian. What 402 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: would say Eurasian today? I mean he's very clearly of 403 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: now I think now Japanese descent. But at that time 404 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm not sure too many people in Australia had seen 405 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: someone from Japan despite the fear mungering, so he was 406 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: able to pass unnoticed. He was described as having a 407 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: strange intonation of speech. Now, obviously he had a strong 408 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: Japanese accent. Japanese was his first language. He learned English later. 409 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: I've seen his written English and you can see that 410 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: it's not his first language. The way he writes, the 411 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: shape of his characters is very much influenced by Japanese writing, 412 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: and he sentence structure. It's very much he is a 413 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: second language English speaker. 414 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 2: Interesting, Now, did he experience racism during his military career. 415 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: He did and he didn't, Jane, if I could put 416 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: it that way amongst the men know, and this is 417 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: a really interesting thing, I think, because you know where 418 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: by the time we get to Gallipoli, where fourteen years 419 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: into the wide Australia policy, he was loved by the 420 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: men because of the work he did and how brave 421 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: he was. But he did in terms of the officer class. Now, 422 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: Harry's dream at Gallipoli was to become an officer. And 423 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: when he got taken off the peninsula injured, he went 424 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: back to London to recover and he started a letter 425 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: writing campaign to the commanders of the first Battalion that 426 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: he was in and other generals, and a lot of 427 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: them wrote back in support and saying he was the 428 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: finest soldier they had at Gallipoli and he should be 429 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: given a commission, he should be an officer. The men 430 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: loved him, they would follow him. But there's one really 431 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: interesting letter from General Walker, who was in charge of 432 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: the ANZACs, and he wrote a letter of recommendation to 433 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: Cyril White, who was also one of the ANZAC commanders, 434 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: and said, you know, Harry wants a commission. He deserves 435 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: one and we should give him one, but godly another 436 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,479 Speaker 1: general won't want to give one to a Mexican. And 437 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: so he had this, you know, the perception that not 438 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: that he was Japanese. They got that wrong, but they 439 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't give, you know, an officer's commission to a Mexican. 440 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: So we had that and he never did get the 441 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: officer's commission, which was which was a real shame because 442 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: he wanted to Even when he was back in Australia, 443 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: he wanted to go back over because they said, you'll 444 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: only get an officer commission if you're back in the field, 445 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: and so it was his desire to get back into 446 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: the field. And he actually got out of the hospital 447 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: in London, stowed away on a ship to Egypt, got 448 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: back to the camps, but then was put back into 449 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: the hospital and sent back to Australia against his will. 450 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 2: And Ryan did Harry stay in Australia after the war. 451 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: Well, he got back in nineteen sixteen and he was 452 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: one of the first soldier settlers. So the soldier settlement 453 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: schemes were being set up for these returning soldiers, and 454 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: he got sent out to Bathist at a little place 455 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: called Montavella, and there was a lot of excitement about 456 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: these schemes in the newspapers. Harry got out there with 457 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: another eight soldier settlers and it quickly became apparent that 458 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: the soldier settler scheme was actually a get rich quick 459 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: scheme for the New South Wales government. And what they 460 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: were doing is they were basically siphoning off funds to 461 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: build the soldier settlement houses. The men were working growing 462 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 1: fruit to sell to Sydney, but they were never told 463 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: how much their fruit was being sold for. They were 464 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: never told how much they owed. So the scheme was 465 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: you'd be given your block of land, you'd sell fruit, 466 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: and then some of that money would go to pay 467 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: off the land, and over thirty years, kind of like 468 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 1: a mortgage, you'd pay it all back. But they were 469 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 1: selling the fruit, but they weren't ever told how much 470 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: money they owed when they'd be out of debt or anything. 471 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: So at that stage all of them walked off the land, 472 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: including Harry. Harry then goes up to Armored to another 473 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: soldier settlement scheme and it's the same situation in that 474 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: quickly he discovers there's corruption and he denounces this corruption 475 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: up there and in that case, what they were doing 476 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: the new South Wales minister who was in charge of it, 477 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: a gentleman called Ashford. They had commissioned the construction of 478 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: these cold storage rooms for the fruit. Well it was 479 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: going to be another four years before there were any 480 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: fruit from these fruit trees, but they commissioned them because 481 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: then the soldiers would then have to pay them off, 482 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: and then they took the money that they were going 483 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: to get from it. So very corrupt. Harry denounces it, 484 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: and it goes to a royal commission to investigate these 485 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: all the soldier settlement schemes, and it finds out that 486 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: this corruption is rife. But what's really interesting, and I 487 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 1: think it's interesting, Jen, how we think about the ANZACs 488 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: now and they're rightly revered for what they did and 489 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: what they went through. But at the time, when you 490 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: read through the old newspapers, the soldier settlers were kind 491 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: of doubted and they were sort of, oh, these guys 492 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 1: have got it easy, and now they're complaining and there's 493 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: all these well they don't even look that damage, you know, 494 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: why aren't they at the war And a lot of 495 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: the men that were coming back in sort of nineteen sixteen, 496 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: nineteen and seventeen. They might have looked okay, but they'd 497 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: been gassed in the German trenches. So I had all 498 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: these broken men sent out to these really rural areas. 499 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,199 Speaker 1: A lot of them have had experience on farms. The 500 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: land wasn't great for what they were supposed to be doing, 501 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: the growing of fruit and vegetables, and there was obviously 502 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: deals being done by people selling land to the government, 503 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: selling you know, friends in the government and getting that money. 504 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: And also that a lot of the women went out 505 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: there with their husbands who had come back and found 506 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: that the husbands were either depressed or violent or just 507 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 1: not up to the work. And then there wasn't that 508 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,640 Speaker 1: much sympathy in the Australian papers for these men as well. 509 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: You know, they've been given this land and they've got 510 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: it easy. They don't mind drinking, but they don't want 511 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: to work hard. But it really wasn't that. But what 512 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: was really interesting about Harry at Kentucky, and if you 513 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: think about his birth back to Japan at the start 514 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: of the modernization of Japan, Harry had that in him. 515 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of articles of the day that 516 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: Harry was the first one to get radio. He was 517 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: the first one to get the machine Deanery. He was 518 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 1: trying to modernize and modernize all the time with machines. 519 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: He was the first person in the area to get 520 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: a car, which he crashed a couple of times. He 521 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: wasn't a great driver. But it's really ching that he 522 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: that that that Japanese upbringing was always with him and 523 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: he never turned his back on his Japanese ancestry, really 524 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: embraced it as much as he could. And in the 525 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: in the Kentucky Soldier Settlement community up near Armadale, he 526 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: was a real leader and at any event, you know, 527 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: there's always he was decorating the hall for the local 528 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: ball he was building the tennis courts. He was a 529 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 1: leader of the RSL, He was a member of the 530 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: local political party, the United Australia Party, so heavily involved. 531 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: And the conclusion I came to about Harry during the 532 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: Soldier Settlement, because it never made money a lot of 533 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: the time he was starving, was that he need He 534 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: really found an identity for himself at Gallipoli, and that 535 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: identity existed as long as you know, the soldiers around 536 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: him existed. And I think he really tried to hold 537 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: that community together. His wife, Edith May, came out and 538 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: joined him in late nineteen nineteen and she lived up 539 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 1: at Kentucky as well, and they had their first son, 540 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: young Harry, who was born in nineteen twenty one. But 541 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: then his wife fell ill at like maybe like a 542 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: we know, not one hundred percent, but it seems like 543 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 1: she went into a post natal depression and then in 544 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: sort of a couple of years later, she went back 545 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: to England with young Harry and left the older Harry 546 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: by himself at Kentucky. Oh no, so he didn't for 547 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,959 Speaker 1: the first couple of years, and that really affected him 548 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: a lot. So when Edith May came back from England, 549 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: Harry had hired a living maid, and it appears that 550 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: when Harry was first in Australia he'd actually fathered a 551 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: child to this lady. Her name was Josephine Clark, and 552 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: so she reappears at Kentucky living in the family house 553 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,239 Speaker 1: with the son, which we assume, and there's not one 554 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: hundred percent, but I'm pretty sure it was Harry's child. 555 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: So you can imagine this really difficult family situation. And 556 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: then we start to lead into the depress years. There's 557 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: no money, there's no fruit, and that goes on till 558 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: about nineteen thirty four, when finally Josephine Clark leaves the 559 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: family household, but by then Harry's had another daughter to her, 560 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: and that's young Gracie, who Harry and Edith may adopt 561 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: as their own. But Gracie grew up never knowing that 562 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: her real mother was Josephine Clark. So really really tough times. 563 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: But I think what it demonstrates, Jen, is that today 564 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: we revere the ANZACs, but when they came back, they 565 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: had it tough. They had it really, really tough, and 566 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: Harry's story is just one of many. 567 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 2: We'll leave part one of the story of Harry frem there. 568 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 2: Come back on Thursday to hear part two to find 569 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 2: out what happened when Harry was sent to Japan as 570 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 2: a spy for Australia. Thanks for listening. This has Been 571 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 2: in Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's 572 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 2: forgotten characters, written and hosted by me Jen Kelly, by 573 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 2: Phoebe Zukowski and produced by John ty Burton. You can 574 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 2: find all the stories and photos associated with our episodes 575 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 2: at Heraldsun dot com dot Au slash ibaw. If you've 576 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: enjoyed this podcast, we'd love you to leave a five 577 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,719 Speaker 2: star rating on Apple Podcasts. Even better, leave a review. 578 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 2: It's one simple way you can help us get the 579 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 2: word out to more listeners. Any comments or questions please 580 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 2: email me at in black and white at Heraldsun dot 581 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 2: com dot au. 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