WEBVTT - What we get wrong about youth crime: Lincoln Tarrow-Lynch Pt. 2 

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective sy aside of life the average person is never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>In part two of my chat with Lincoln Tarot Lynch,

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<v Speaker 1>we talk about youth crime and ways that we could

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<v Speaker 1>do things differently. We also delve into Lincoln's life of crime.

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<v Speaker 1>They always seem destined to pursue how he turned his

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<v Speaker 1>life around. I ask you to listen to what Lincoln

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<v Speaker 1>says right at the end of this episode. It's extremely

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<v Speaker 1>powerful and needs to be heard. Lincoln, Welcome back. Part

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<v Speaker 1>two of I Catch Killers. I enjoyed the enjoyed the

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<v Speaker 1>chat in part one, and when I say enjoy it

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<v Speaker 1>was a pretty heavy, heavy topic that you talk about.

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<v Speaker 1>You're talking about your childhood and it's certainly not a

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<v Speaker 1>childhood that people born into this world. You'd like to

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<v Speaker 1>think there's a little bit more support and love for it.

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<v Speaker 1>I did a podcast, as you know, with Claude robertson

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<v Speaker 1>the other day and Vince Early, and there was an

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<v Speaker 1>article that came out on the back of that podcast

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<v Speaker 1>and talking about Claude and Vince. You know them both

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<v Speaker 1>well and you've got to know me and just some

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<v Speaker 1>our views on crime, and there was a narrative because

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<v Speaker 1>we touched on youth crime like we did in part

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<v Speaker 1>one a discussion with you, and there was some feedback

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<v Speaker 1>from the public that, yeah, you've got to get tougher

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<v Speaker 1>on kids. The parents should be responsible, and that seemed

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<v Speaker 1>to be a real push on the on the feedback

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<v Speaker 1>parents are responsible for their actions on their kids. In

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<v Speaker 1>an ideal world, we'd like that to be, but I

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<v Speaker 1>think you're an example that your parents weren't the type

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<v Speaker 1>that could be responsible for raising the child. So what

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<v Speaker 1>do you what do you say the people that go

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<v Speaker 1>all it's that's the parents responsibility.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that that's it's kind of fair enough,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's an easy assumption to make. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of the assumptions you make off the bat

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<v Speaker 2>are really easy to make, you know, And that's that

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<v Speaker 2>is one of them, which is like, oh, well, children

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<v Speaker 2>are kind of like their parents are responsible for them.

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<v Speaker 2>They've got bad behavior, it's a parent's fault. And that

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<v Speaker 2>might be the case, But what if the parents themselves

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<v Speaker 2>have got their own issues going on, and maybe they're

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<v Speaker 2>not able to be as responsible as they would like

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<v Speaker 2>to be as well, and they've ended up being parents,

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<v Speaker 2>and maybe they don't have the skills, all the skills

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<v Speaker 2>to raise the children in a way that that kid's

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<v Speaker 2>not going to get into trouble. And it doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 2>that they don't have the ability to do it. And

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<v Speaker 2>maybe that that and not maybe, but that is part

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<v Speaker 2>of where the care that that child needs. And we're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about the wrap around service, and for a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of these kids, that wrap around service includes their family

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<v Speaker 2>as well. Yeah, you know, and so maybe, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>part of it is also helping the parents.

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<v Speaker 1>Helping the parents exactly to help themselves exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>So they can actually do that, and because that's the

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<v Speaker 2>ideal situation, is that the child gets to stay with

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<v Speaker 2>their parents and they get to have a relationship with

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<v Speaker 2>their parents, and their parents get to have a relationship

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<v Speaker 2>with them, and they can be a support network for

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<v Speaker 2>each other like they're meant to be, and that's going

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<v Speaker 2>to be a big part of helping that child not

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<v Speaker 2>keep getting into trouble and not end up being a

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<v Speaker 2>threat to their community and going to prison and this

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<v Speaker 2>cycle continuing.

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<v Speaker 1>It makes sense, but it's with the narrative that the

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<v Speaker 1>parents should be responsible. It's a bit of a simplistic

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<v Speaker 1>and naive. It is view. It is I can see

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<v Speaker 1>that from being a police officer. You can see that

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<v Speaker 1>from living the life that you were grown up in.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not that it's not an ideal world. And sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>the parents aren't aren't being to support.

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<v Speaker 2>The children, and even some parents maybe it's not necessarily

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<v Speaker 2>their fault, and there's other stuff going on with that child,

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<v Speaker 2>like maybe the child's had something that's happened to them

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<v Speaker 2>outside of the home that's got them in this having

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<v Speaker 2>these kind of behaviors and the parents and it's not

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<v Speaker 2>the parents fault, and the parents don't know what to do,

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<v Speaker 2>and there's plenty of them, Like there was plenty of

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<v Speaker 2>kids when I was homeless as a young person, and

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<v Speaker 2>they had a good home, yeah, you know, but there

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<v Speaker 2>was other stuff going on for them that forced them out,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. And even in terms of we're talking about

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<v Speaker 2>like maybe queer kids that have been forced out of home,

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<v Speaker 2>that's a perfect opportunity to be talking to the parents

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<v Speaker 2>and for someone from maybe their community to help them,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, understand what's going on with their child and

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<v Speaker 2>help them keep that relationship and keep them either if

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<v Speaker 2>not at home, at least have a have a healthier relationship,

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<v Speaker 2>because a kid with a healthy relationship with his parents

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<v Speaker 2>is going to be a better behave child most definitely.

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<v Speaker 1>I get the sense talking to you there's not you

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<v Speaker 1>understand that there's not a one thing fixers all, definitely,

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<v Speaker 1>And I think each kids an individual circumstances are agreed,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's that's the way we've got to got to approach.

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<v Speaker 2>It needs to be tailored to what to what that

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<v Speaker 2>child needs.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to and I did say up front, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>going to keep referring to your submission to the inquiry,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think it was so powerful. Some of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that were said, I just really had another quote them.

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<v Speaker 1>We can talk about that. But while locked up, I

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<v Speaker 1>did not receive a mental health assessment, counseling, or meaningful

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<v Speaker 1>help for planning my life after release. I was sentenced

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<v Speaker 1>to community service and place in the refuge. Here, I

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<v Speaker 1>was again assaulted by an adult I trusted. The experience

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<v Speaker 1>fundamentally undermined any trust I had in the support professionals,

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<v Speaker 1>and was kicked out of the refuge for bad behavior.

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<v Speaker 1>I bring you attention to the first part. I did

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<v Speaker 1>not receive any mental health assessment, counseling, or meaningful help

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<v Speaker 1>to plan a life after release. Breaking that down, how

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<v Speaker 1>do you think that would have helped you when you're

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<v Speaker 1>in detention? Youth detention.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so that's the currently a lot of children when

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<v Speaker 2>they're released, I released back into whatever circumstances are in

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<v Speaker 2>before they went to prison.

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<v Speaker 1>What do we think is going to happen exactly?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, So if a kid in an understable home

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<v Speaker 2>environment or maybe not at home, or they've got a

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<v Speaker 2>dressed mental health issues before they go in, and then

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<v Speaker 2>they're just released back out, it's just it won't be

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<v Speaker 2>long before they're back in and the stats show it,

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<v Speaker 2>it's like fifty percent of kids go back, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>above fifty percent of kids go back. So I'm a

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<v Speaker 2>big fan of therapy and psychology and because you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's how else are you going to change someone's behaviors

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<v Speaker 2>if you don't help them change the way they think?

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<v Speaker 2>And so I think that, you know, for helping address

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<v Speaker 2>the issues and the behaviors of young people, psychology has

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<v Speaker 2>to be a big part of it. And I also

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<v Speaker 2>think there needs to be not just releasing someone and

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<v Speaker 2>then going Okay, now we'll try and sort out the

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<v Speaker 2>issues after their release. These things need to happen weeks

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<v Speaker 2>and weeks months before their release, so that this planning

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<v Speaker 2>needs to start beforehand. And I know there are some

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<v Speaker 2>services that do that and they've got really amazing, amazing results,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. So it's like twelve weeks before release they

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<v Speaker 2>start like, look at supporting this child and working out

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<v Speaker 2>what they can do to prevent them going back in.

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<v Speaker 1>That's an important thing because I could imagine I can

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<v Speaker 1>just see how the system would work. They'd everyone would

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<v Speaker 1>be giving themselves a pat on the back that when

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<v Speaker 1>Lincoln's released, he's going to have to see someone and

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<v Speaker 1>do this and do that right, but you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>have an opportunity to fall back into old habits. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>you need that sort of work done on you.

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<v Speaker 2>A soft re entry into society. I was thinking about

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<v Speaker 2>this last night and thinking for people that are listening.

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<v Speaker 2>If tomorrow you were exitent from wherever you're living and

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<v Speaker 2>from home or weaver you're living right now, but you

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<v Speaker 2>don't have a mobile phone with you. You've got no idea,

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<v Speaker 2>no money, no transport card, nothing at all except the

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<v Speaker 2>clothes you're wearing, and no family and no one you

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<v Speaker 2>can rely on that's going to help you get a home.

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<v Speaker 2>What are you going to do? Actually? What like really

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<v Speaker 2>think about it? What are you going to do? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's what most people leave in prison face, Like half

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<v Speaker 2>of people leaving prison like that, including children. It's just

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<v Speaker 2>a well what can you do? Like what itcedn't if

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<v Speaker 2>you're going.

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<v Speaker 1>I won't treat that there's a hypothetical question or true

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<v Speaker 1>that the Okay, if I was put in a position,

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<v Speaker 1>well you got to eat, so and if you haven't

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<v Speaker 1>got money, you can't can't get food from somewhere, You're

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<v Speaker 1>going to steal it exactly you're going to get some

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<v Speaker 1>money from somewhere you haven't got somewhere to sleep, or

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<v Speaker 1>I'd be looking at breaking into a place from somewhere

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<v Speaker 1>that's safe to sleep. So, yeah, I can see what

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<v Speaker 1>you're saying.

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<v Speaker 2>And you're not doing that because you're a bad person,

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<v Speaker 2>or you're trying to like hurt other people or take

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<v Speaker 2>something from someone else. You might be taking something from

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<v Speaker 2>someone else, but you're not doing because you want to

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<v Speaker 2>take something from someone else. You're doing because you're trying

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<v Speaker 2>to survive. Yeah, you know, And that's the position we

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<v Speaker 2>put a lot of a lot of people in and

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<v Speaker 2>then wonder why a few months later in prison. That's

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<v Speaker 2>kind of it's maddening.

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<v Speaker 1>It is strange, but I think the way that people

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<v Speaker 1>look at it and look, I've got to put my

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<v Speaker 1>hand up here as well. The more I've been out

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<v Speaker 1>of the police and sitting down speaking to people like yourself,

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<v Speaker 1>because I didn't have the opportunity to do that as

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<v Speaker 1>much in the police, it's opened my eyes up to

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<v Speaker 1>how hard it is. I always thought, you know, someone

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<v Speaker 1>that put away when they get out of jail and yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>well they've done their time. Hopefully they'll turn it round.

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<v Speaker 1>But it won't surprise me when they go back in

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<v Speaker 1>or locking them up again.

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<v Speaker 2>And you think other person's like, they've probably stopped using

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<v Speaker 2>drugs while they're in prison, They've got a good opportunity,

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<v Speaker 2>they look well fared. We've done something good for them.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a circuit breaker. Yeah, it kind of looks like that.

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<v Speaker 1>It's crazy your adult adult life. So when did you

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<v Speaker 1>first hit the adult prisons first time?

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<v Speaker 2>I was thirty yep, as an adult.

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<v Speaker 1>So how are you surviving between the.

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<v Speaker 2>Teams and things. I was mostly selling drugs, So most

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<v Speaker 2>of that time it was selling pot, pot and MDMA,

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing. Like at the time, I considered

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<v Speaker 2>like softer kind of drugs, you know, And I guess

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<v Speaker 2>pot is in some ways of softer kind of drugs. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And I sold like enough of that just to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of get by, pay my bills and do what I

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<v Speaker 2>needed to do. I wasn't trying to like live some

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<v Speaker 2>kind of super luxurious life or bring much attention on myself. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think that's why I evaded trouble for so long.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you form a network of family, friends or relationships not?

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<v Speaker 2>Not really. I definitely struggled with that. Yeah, so from

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<v Speaker 2>you know, everything that happened growing up, I found it

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<v Speaker 2>very very difficult to form meaningful relationships with anyone, especially

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<v Speaker 2>friendships and that kind of thing. Like most friendships are

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<v Speaker 2>even if they were good ones, I would push them away.

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<v Speaker 2>Most relationships with like intimate partners were also like really

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<v Speaker 2>very unhealthy, right, There's a lot going on there as well,

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<v Speaker 2>and a lot of them were based around drug dealing

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<v Speaker 2>and that kind of stuff. And then when you've got

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<v Speaker 2>a transactional relationship with a partner, it's not going to

0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.040
<v Speaker 2>be going to be a healthy relationship.

0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:25.480
<v Speaker 1>Did you like your mental health and the way you

0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:27.640
<v Speaker 1>were looking at the world. We're still carrying anger and

0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:31.680
<v Speaker 1>resentment and the fact that I know you now and

0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:35.080
<v Speaker 1>I was so impressed when I heard you talk with

0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:39.679
<v Speaker 1>that function at Rainbow Lodge that did you think you

0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:42.439
<v Speaker 1>will get into amount to anything at this period of

0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:43.640
<v Speaker 1>time we're talking.

0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:49.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like twenties days. At some point I would have, like,

0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:56.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, maybe thoughts that were grandiose thoughts even and

0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:58.960
<v Speaker 2>other times felt like I would absolutely amount to nothing

0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:01.520
<v Speaker 2>at all, you know. And in terms of anger, I

0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:05.960
<v Speaker 2>was definitely angry, and my temper was like nothing else,

0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:09.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, like the amount of times I've jumped out

0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.360
<v Speaker 2>of the car with a baseball bat or a MACHETI

0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:15.000
<v Speaker 2>and you know, like ticking time absolutely, yeah, you know,

0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.000
<v Speaker 2>like multiple times had my girlfriend just screaming at me

0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.120
<v Speaker 2>to stop whatever I was doing because I've just gone

0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:25.360
<v Speaker 2>and just started smashing someone's car apart because they've stopped

0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:28.920
<v Speaker 2>too quickly in front of me and you know, on

0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:32.479
<v Speaker 2>the road or something. You know, just completely completely wild.

0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:36.520
<v Speaker 1>I know the type of person. It is, a ticking time.

0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:40.160
<v Speaker 1>I was like that, Yeah, it was sooner or later

0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:42.760
<v Speaker 1>you were going to end up in prison.

0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:44.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I was just I can't believe it. It took

0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:47.000
<v Speaker 2>so long, I was. Yeah, you know, I don't know

0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:50.640
<v Speaker 2>how how I got away with it. There was so

0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:52.040
<v Speaker 2>many close encounters, you know.

0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.240
<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking of the attitude that you would have would

0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:58.199
<v Speaker 1>have had made me so many clothes to avoid it.

0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:00.880
<v Speaker 2>I'd often talked my way out of it, to be honest. Yeah,

0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.559
<v Speaker 2>I've been pulled over with guns in the car and

0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.160
<v Speaker 2>big amounts of drugs in the car and just talked

0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:06.839
<v Speaker 2>and talked.

0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:11.600
<v Speaker 1>And talking to stop the cop even though anyway, search

0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:12.760
<v Speaker 1>have a.

0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.640
<v Speaker 2>Good day and just kind of redirecting, Okay, well, let's help.

0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:22.760
<v Speaker 1>Let's a skill. Yeah, I can can imagine. Okay, well,

0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:27.080
<v Speaker 1>even with your charm and your skills are negotiating eventually,

0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.840
<v Speaker 1>got your tell us, tell us what happened there?

0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Sure, so I'll tell you leading up to that first,

0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, because I think it's an important part of

0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:39.400
<v Speaker 2>the story. And that's not not the high life part.

0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:43.280
<v Speaker 2>It's not an important part, but i'd kind of I've

0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:46.080
<v Speaker 2>been looking for a way out of the lifestyle for

0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:49.440
<v Speaker 2>some time and the the addiction because at this point

0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:51.960
<v Speaker 2>i'd been using ice for about six years.

0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:53.200
<v Speaker 1>As well, that's what I's going to win.

0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So I was nearly forty at this point, and

0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:00.760
<v Speaker 2>I've been using ice and I couldn't stop. I tried,

0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:02.920
<v Speaker 2>and I couldn't. I tried to get into rehabit I

0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:07.920
<v Speaker 2>couldn't multiple times, and I just could not see a

0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:12.120
<v Speaker 2>way out. And my lifestyle and my ability to pay

0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:16.520
<v Speaker 2>my bills and my rent was tied into dealing and

0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:20.720
<v Speaker 2>as was my addiction, and I couldn't see a way out.

0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.840
<v Speaker 2>And I was absolutely terrified of becoming homeless. And this

0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.680
<v Speaker 2>is something that even that stuck with me as an adult,

0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:30.920
<v Speaker 2>this thought of like what if I end up homeless again,

0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:34.040
<v Speaker 2>which it is fair enough to be terrified of being homeless.

0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.320
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I was living in this beautiful apartment, Meriton

0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:40.920
<v Speaker 2>apartment in the city with a view all the way

0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:44.720
<v Speaker 2>up and down the coast, really luxurious lifestyle. At this point,

0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:47.560
<v Speaker 2>I'd kind of decided I was going to like knuckle

0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:50.960
<v Speaker 2>down and kind of sell more than I had been

0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:54.400
<v Speaker 2>and try and retire. And the idea was like, make

0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:58.440
<v Speaker 2>a bit a decent chunk of money, move overseas, detox,

0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:00.560
<v Speaker 2>get on with my life, you know.

0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:01.640
<v Speaker 1>Live like a citizen.

0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:05.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I never would have worked. You know, looking back,

0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:07.160
<v Speaker 2>I would have ended up back doing what I was doing,

0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:10.000
<v Speaker 2>because there'd be no reason not to know. But that's

0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.520
<v Speaker 2>the way I thought at the time. But I was like,

0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:17.080
<v Speaker 2>even though I had this like really from the outside,

0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:21.440
<v Speaker 2>really amazing lifestyle, it seemed like I had everything I wanted,

0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.400
<v Speaker 2>hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, I could just

0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:27.200
<v Speaker 2>do anything I wanted it if I wanted, other than

0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:32.320
<v Speaker 2>stop using ice. Yeah, and I remember for a long time,

0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:35.120
<v Speaker 2>I'd be in the bathroom, you know, with the door

0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.400
<v Speaker 2>locked and no one knew, trying to find a vein

0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:43.320
<v Speaker 2>with a needle and literally just just tears dropping down,

0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, from my eyes onto the arm where I

0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.680
<v Speaker 2>was trying to find a vein and just hating myself

0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:55.720
<v Speaker 2>absolutely so much shame and yeah, just absolute I just

0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.200
<v Speaker 2>loathed myself, and I knew what I was doing was

0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:03.000
<v Speaker 2>wrong by this point in life. If I was, I'd

0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.320
<v Speaker 2>learned enough about who I wanted to be as a

0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.520
<v Speaker 2>person to know that taking part in selling the drugs

0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:14.920
<v Speaker 2>I was selling was wrong and that incongruency, and and

0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:18.119
<v Speaker 2>that knowing that I was moving in a direction that

0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:22.640
<v Speaker 2>was morally against you my values, but not being able

0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:23.320
<v Speaker 2>to stop.

0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.680
<v Speaker 1>Was a contrace that was evolving like it was because

0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.040
<v Speaker 1>it was probably wasn't vagues that were instilled in you

0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:30.680
<v Speaker 1>as a child.

0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:34.360
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't as a child, but they evolved over time. Yeah,

0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:38.840
<v Speaker 2>but my behaviors weren't in alignment and looking values in.

0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.040
<v Speaker 1>The mirror, trying to stick a needle in your arm

0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.520
<v Speaker 1>and knowing that you're dealing these drugs and you would

0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:45.919
<v Speaker 1>have just been looking at the grubby What have I

0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.480
<v Speaker 1>become a grubby addict?

0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:52.240
<v Speaker 2>And knowing that like the that all the money I

0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.520
<v Speaker 2>had was on the backs of people that were suffering.

0:17:55.600 --> 0:18:00.240
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so and I hated that because if anyone it's

0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:04.199
<v Speaker 1>been dealing drugs, I always asked, you contemplate the impact

0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.359
<v Speaker 1>that's had on the same your profiting off other people's briefs.

0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:13.480
<v Speaker 2>But understand I definitely did, Yeah, definitely, and that that

0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:15.240
<v Speaker 2>was a big part of what was eating me up.

0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:21.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, yeah. So funnily enough, I was praying a

0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:24.840
<v Speaker 2>lot for a way out, yeah, you know, and the

0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:29.000
<v Speaker 2>way out wasn't the one I was praying for. So yeah,

0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.800
<v Speaker 2>that whole that whole thing is careful what you wish,

0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:37.280
<v Speaker 2>I can't do this anymore. Whatever helped you out, God, exactly,

0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.080
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, it wasn't.

0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:41.800
<v Speaker 1>You thought that you're just going to get to kick

0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:46.280
<v Speaker 1>the habit? Exactly, great marafter.

0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.680
<v Speaker 2>Good cheap tickets or something overas like something nice to stay.

0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:50.000
<v Speaker 2>That's what I was praying for.

0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:52.159
<v Speaker 1>Prayers were hands, they were not in the way that

0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:53.800
<v Speaker 1>you expect. What happened.

0:18:54.240 --> 0:19:01.480
<v Speaker 2>So it was one morning, beautiful sunny morning January, the

0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.400
<v Speaker 2>sunlight pouring into the apartment of these floor to ceiling windows,

0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:07.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I was just getting ready to go

0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:10.080
<v Speaker 2>out and buy like a kilo of MDMA, which was

0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:11.480
<v Speaker 2>like a kind of normal thing to do on it

0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:16.879
<v Speaker 2>on an eight am in the morning, and yeah, it

0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:19.760
<v Speaker 2>was just a really nice, chill morning top of the world.

0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:22.640
<v Speaker 2>Other than the addiction stuff, but I felt good that day,

0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:27.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, and about to go out and I heard

0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:33.159
<v Speaker 2>this like muffled sound of men yelling, just this strange

0:19:33.200 --> 0:19:35.760
<v Speaker 2>sound I hadn't heard before, like lots of men yelling.

0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:39.640
<v Speaker 2>And before I had a chance to kind of work

0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:43.719
<v Speaker 2>out what that was, the door just burst in and

0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:47.880
<v Speaker 2>then the unit was just flooded with guys with automatic

0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:51.560
<v Speaker 2>rifles and tactical gear and what have you, you know,

0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:53.960
<v Speaker 2>And the next minute, yeah, there was like a dozen

0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.080
<v Speaker 2>a dozen police in the in the unit, and you know,

0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:58.800
<v Speaker 2>I was pinned down. My partner at the time was

0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:03.600
<v Speaker 2>pinned down. Yeah. It was a really it was a shocking,

0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:07.320
<v Speaker 2>a shocking experience. And you know, they came in and

0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.440
<v Speaker 2>just sort of ripped everything apart, and at the same

0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:13.240
<v Speaker 2>time they were raiding a couple of units that I had.

0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:16.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay, well, you must have really come under the under

0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:18.000
<v Speaker 1>the radar. I did come after you.

0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:23.119
<v Speaker 2>I did, And it was as far as I know

0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:25.040
<v Speaker 2>it was. There was someone that owed me some money

0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:27.520
<v Speaker 2>that I'd been dealing with for some time. We'd known

0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:30.760
<v Speaker 2>each other kind of as mate for a while and

0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:33.640
<v Speaker 2>not many people knew where I lived, and it wasn't

0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:37.200
<v Speaker 2>something I normally would people normally wouldn't know. But it

0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.240
<v Speaker 2>was a mistake I made. But it doesn't matter now.

0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:41.840
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, he owed me some money and I kind

0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.160
<v Speaker 2>of pressured him to pay that money back, right, thought

0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:46.560
<v Speaker 2>it was easier just to get rid of me.

0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:51.199
<v Speaker 1>Well, cautionary chile to a people thinking of starting a

0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.560
<v Speaker 1>greed deal in drugs, that is that is the way

0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:56.679
<v Speaker 1>it unravels inbearably.

0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:59.280
<v Speaker 2>And I should have listened to Mom, which was like, yeah,

0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:01.160
<v Speaker 2>in that kind of circumstance, she would have said, don't

0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:02.200
<v Speaker 2>let anyone know where you live.

0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:07.600
<v Speaker 1>If you're hearing a group of muffled men going down

0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:11.840
<v Speaker 1>all the way, you probably probably be in trouble. Look,

0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:14.439
<v Speaker 1>we're laughing at it, and I know that sort of

0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:19.520
<v Speaker 1>cheapening it that you understand the life that you're living

0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:24.399
<v Speaker 1>was not a good, good life. Yeah, it's probably you know,

0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:26.679
<v Speaker 1>if a system has worked at least if this is

0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:28.400
<v Speaker 1>the starting point of change.

0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.760
<v Speaker 2>So it was also like I'm laughing about it now,

0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:33.840
<v Speaker 2>but it was. It was one of the worst experiences

0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:36.520
<v Speaker 2>of my life, you know, like going back to the

0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:41.480
<v Speaker 2>cells afterwards and sitting in the cell and just realizing

0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:45.240
<v Speaker 2>that I don't know how many people have made mistakes,

0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:48.280
<v Speaker 2>big mistakes that they wish they could turn back time,

0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:50.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, and if you know that feeling, you know

0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:51.760
<v Speaker 2>that feeling you know when you've done something.

0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:55.400
<v Speaker 1>I think most of us I wish I.

0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.040
<v Speaker 2>Could turn back time. And that realization that there was

0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:01.320
<v Speaker 2>nothing I could do to change the course of history

0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:05.480
<v Speaker 2>and changed where the direction I was moving in is

0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:10.159
<v Speaker 2>really distressing. And you know, and I cried, and I

0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:12.840
<v Speaker 2>was in the cells, and I was like, fuck, it's

0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:14.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what's coming, but I know I'm going

0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:15.880
<v Speaker 2>to jail for a long time.

0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:17.800
<v Speaker 1>And you wouldn't have got bio.

0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:19.760
<v Speaker 2>Definitely not. Yeah, no, definitely not.

0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:23.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Yeah, And what did you end up getting charged

0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:24.000
<v Speaker 1>and convicted of?

0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:27.959
<v Speaker 2>So there's a bit over a kilo of ice, about

0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:35.240
<v Speaker 2>sixty kilos of GHB, Yeah, a couple of firearms, stampsial

0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:35.920
<v Speaker 2>amount of money.

0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:38.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're not getting weak into attention.

0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:40.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm definitely not getting weak int attention. Yeah, it was

0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:40.320
<v Speaker 2>a lot.

0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:43.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what how how long did you end up getting

0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:47.720
<v Speaker 1>six years? Tell me about your prison experience.

0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:54.280
<v Speaker 2>It was like for everyone, it's tough. It's it's not

0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:58.320
<v Speaker 2>it's tough. For anyone that says it isn't is lying.

0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:02.399
<v Speaker 2>You know. Some people might get used to it in

0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:05.240
<v Speaker 2>a way, but I definitely didn't get used to it.

0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:09.560
<v Speaker 2>And a couple of years would have been easy. Yeah,

0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:12.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, I would have done that quite easily, and

0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:13.439
<v Speaker 2>I would have come out and kept doing what I

0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:17.000
<v Speaker 2>was doing, okay, you know, because it would be easy.

0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:22.240
<v Speaker 2>But six years was. Yeah, it was tough. And yeah,

0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:26.679
<v Speaker 2>realizing that the life that you have and that the

0:23:26.760 --> 0:23:29.239
<v Speaker 2>people you know and all that kind of stuff is

0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:32.600
<v Speaker 2>just literally over and realizing you've been ripped out of

0:23:32.640 --> 0:23:35.919
<v Speaker 2>that and having to come to terms with that. For me,

0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:40.520
<v Speaker 2>and this happens to a lot of people, some of

0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:44.560
<v Speaker 2>the relationships that you have come to an end while

0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:47.160
<v Speaker 2>you're in prison. And for me that was with mum,

0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:51.239
<v Speaker 2>you know. And so I actually hadn't seen her for

0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:55.120
<v Speaker 2>ten years before I went to jail, but I still

0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:57.760
<v Speaker 2>loved her, you know. But while I was in prison,

0:23:57.800 --> 0:24:00.520
<v Speaker 2>she got sick with cancer. I was able to see

0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:04.320
<v Speaker 2>her twice. In maximum security. We had very limited contact,

0:24:04.440 --> 0:24:07.199
<v Speaker 2>like we were about to hug once I'm told to

0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:08.680
<v Speaker 2>stop hugging that kind of thing.

0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:12.600
<v Speaker 1>And then that's tough. Yeah, yeah, and that made that

0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:16.119
<v Speaker 1>you're in jail, but it doesn't take away from the

0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:20.119
<v Speaker 1>human human emotions. But how tough that that is.

0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:23.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and she she died a couple of years into

0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:28.520
<v Speaker 2>my sentence, and that was really tough. You know. It

0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:32.120
<v Speaker 2>was just so much unresolved stuff, you know, between us

0:24:32.119 --> 0:24:34.320
<v Speaker 2>that we never got to resolve that that we really

0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:37.120
<v Speaker 2>probably could have if we sat down and talked a bit.

0:24:37.320 --> 0:24:39.680
<v Speaker 2>And that's something I definitely regret not being able to do.

0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:42.560
<v Speaker 2>But there's not nothing I can do about that. Now.

0:24:43.600 --> 0:24:46.120
<v Speaker 1>Did you keep yourself out of trouble in prison.

0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:48.560
<v Speaker 2>For the first couple of years, I did, Yeah, well,

0:24:48.600 --> 0:24:51.440
<v Speaker 2>the first year in a bit, I did. But old

0:24:51.480 --> 0:24:54.840
<v Speaker 2>habits die hard, yeah, you know. And I saw an

0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:58.440
<v Speaker 2>opportunity to sell drugs again, yeah, you know, and had

0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:02.840
<v Speaker 2>caught big court feats to hey, you know, my legal

0:25:02.960 --> 0:25:07.960
<v Speaker 2>costs were pretty high, and yeah, it's what I knew,

0:25:07.960 --> 0:25:10.320
<v Speaker 2>and it kept me occupied and I did you know,

0:25:10.440 --> 0:25:14.200
<v Speaker 2>I sold sold different drugs for a couple of years,

0:25:14.520 --> 0:25:18.199
<v Speaker 2>ice and that kind of stuff and other drugs in jail.

0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:21.520
<v Speaker 2>They made prison much harder. Selling drugs in jail makes

0:25:21.560 --> 0:25:25.720
<v Speaker 2>life a lot harder because it just means that you're yeah,

0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:28.399
<v Speaker 2>you end up in more fights and more drama and more.

0:25:28.720 --> 0:25:31.439
<v Speaker 2>It's much more stressful than just than not doing it.

0:25:32.359 --> 0:25:36.000
<v Speaker 2>But also the time kind of goes quicker when you're high. Yeah.

0:25:35.560 --> 0:25:39.040
<v Speaker 2>So so for a couple of years, Yeah, you know,

0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:40.720
<v Speaker 2>I smoked a lot of ice and I took a

0:25:40.720 --> 0:25:43.680
<v Speaker 2>lot of drugs for a couple of years. But I'd

0:25:43.680 --> 0:25:48.000
<v Speaker 2>always and I'd known when I went in that I

0:25:48.080 --> 0:25:50.800
<v Speaker 2>was going to leave without a drug habit. And so

0:25:50.920 --> 0:25:53.600
<v Speaker 2>two years out is when I decided to stop everything

0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:59.159
<v Speaker 2>and start working towards my release. Yeah. Yeah, so just

0:25:59.280 --> 0:25:59.680
<v Speaker 2>I quit.

0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:02.840
<v Speaker 1>How hard would that be to do in that environment?

0:26:04.359 --> 0:26:07.520
<v Speaker 2>It was difficult, but I really had enough of it

0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:10.280
<v Speaker 2>by then as well. You know, obviously I didn't like

0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:12.720
<v Speaker 2>being addicted, you know, and it still went back to

0:26:12.760 --> 0:26:15.400
<v Speaker 2>those same feelings of addiction and which I didn't want.

0:26:16.160 --> 0:26:20.120
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, I also enjoy training and feeling healthy and

0:26:20.119 --> 0:26:22.280
<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing. So it was it was actually

0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:26.159
<v Speaker 2>pretty easy to stop, right, yeah, because it ultimately like

0:26:26.320 --> 0:26:29.280
<v Speaker 2>it feels better to not be addicted to anything and

0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:31.520
<v Speaker 2>to feel healthy ultimately feels better.

0:26:31.840 --> 0:26:36.399
<v Speaker 1>Yea, So six years you do the be released. Is

0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:38.840
<v Speaker 1>that where you came into contact with Rainbow Lodge?

0:26:38.920 --> 0:26:41.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it sure was. Yeah, And I think this is

0:26:41.480 --> 0:26:45.360
<v Speaker 2>what when I'm when I'm talking about the people being

0:26:45.520 --> 0:26:50.000
<v Speaker 2>released into homelessness and the challenges that people that people face,

0:26:50.080 --> 0:26:53.480
<v Speaker 2>and that the real challenge. It's definitely not theoretical from

0:26:53.480 --> 0:26:57.480
<v Speaker 2>my point of view, it's something I've experienced. And yeah,

0:26:57.520 --> 0:27:01.480
<v Speaker 2>like when I left, literally left with a plastic bag,

0:27:02.440 --> 0:27:05.480
<v Speaker 2>that scenario I put to you before of no phone,

0:27:05.680 --> 0:27:08.840
<v Speaker 2>no idea, no money, the clothes you're wearing. That that's

0:27:08.840 --> 0:27:09.720
<v Speaker 2>how I left prison.

0:27:10.520 --> 0:27:13.400
<v Speaker 1>Not the support family or.

0:27:13.440 --> 0:27:15.560
<v Speaker 2>No, there was no family by then. You know, mom

0:27:15.600 --> 0:27:19.679
<v Speaker 2>had passed, my grandmother was almost passed. My sister doesn't

0:27:19.720 --> 0:27:22.439
<v Speaker 2>want a relationship with me, So yeah, there was no

0:27:22.720 --> 0:27:28.119
<v Speaker 2>there was no family to support me. But yeah, I

0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:32.200
<v Speaker 2>left not knowing what I was going to do. I've

0:27:32.200 --> 0:27:34.320
<v Speaker 2>been paroled to a Rainbow Lodge, but I didn't know

0:27:34.359 --> 0:27:38.800
<v Speaker 2>what to expect. Thankfully I went there, Okay, thankfully, Oh

0:27:38.800 --> 0:27:41.480
<v Speaker 2>my gosh. If I didn't, I was going back in.

0:27:42.119 --> 0:27:45.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm a big believer in what's done there and Rainbow Lodge.

0:27:45.760 --> 0:27:49.720
<v Speaker 1>If people that might have heard Claude robertson the program

0:27:49.960 --> 0:27:53.359
<v Speaker 1>talk about it, and by god he talks wonder if

0:27:53.520 --> 0:27:56.159
<v Speaker 1>politicians are scared of him once he's got.

0:27:56.000 --> 0:27:57.919
<v Speaker 2>Your I heard you say yesterday, maybe he should go.

0:27:58.119 --> 0:27:59.879
<v Speaker 2>Has he thought about politics? Yeah, I can see.

0:27:59.800 --> 0:28:02.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I could see it too. But it's a residential

0:28:03.000 --> 0:28:08.119
<v Speaker 1>program that helps men like Lincoln here who re enter

0:28:08.280 --> 0:28:11.760
<v Speaker 1>community after prison. So tell us about that experience and

0:28:11.840 --> 0:28:13.480
<v Speaker 1>why it made a difference to you.

0:28:14.600 --> 0:28:18.560
<v Speaker 2>Sure. So, like I said, I was leaving and my

0:28:18.680 --> 0:28:22.920
<v Speaker 2>options were insecure accommodation, maybe a boarding house or something

0:28:23.000 --> 0:28:27.439
<v Speaker 2>like that, very temporary accommodation or Rainbow Lodge, which was

0:28:27.480 --> 0:28:34.240
<v Speaker 2>a potentially three months of accommodation with support. And I

0:28:34.240 --> 0:28:36.719
<v Speaker 2>didn't actually realize how important the kind of support they

0:28:36.720 --> 0:28:39.760
<v Speaker 2>were going to give me would be, you know, as

0:28:39.760 --> 0:28:42.280
<v Speaker 2>someone who hadn't really had to go to parole much

0:28:42.360 --> 0:28:47.800
<v Speaker 2>before or navigate that kind of post release responsibilities. And

0:28:47.840 --> 0:28:51.080
<v Speaker 2>also someone who'd never, you know, since I was a kid,

0:28:51.120 --> 0:28:53.200
<v Speaker 2>had to deal with having no phone or no idea

0:28:53.320 --> 0:28:55.480
<v Speaker 2>or no money because I had money in my whole

0:28:55.560 --> 0:28:59.560
<v Speaker 2>life and never really had to not have money since

0:28:59.560 --> 0:29:01.720
<v Speaker 2>I was a kid, So I was always used to

0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:05.880
<v Speaker 2>having those kind of resources and coming out and not

0:29:06.120 --> 0:29:09.160
<v Speaker 2>having any of those things that those are the kinds

0:29:09.200 --> 0:29:11.840
<v Speaker 2>of things that Rainbow Lodge does provide people and it

0:29:11.880 --> 0:29:15.840
<v Speaker 2>actually works, and you don't realize how important it is

0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:20.360
<v Speaker 2>to have someone help you get your phone connected, and

0:29:20.480 --> 0:29:22.920
<v Speaker 2>someone to go with you to a bank to help

0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:23.960
<v Speaker 2>you get a bank account.

0:29:24.440 --> 0:29:26.480
<v Speaker 1>So those little things that we do make such a

0:29:26.560 --> 0:29:27.160
<v Speaker 1>big difference.

0:29:27.600 --> 0:29:29.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because just getting a bank account you need to

0:29:29.920 --> 0:29:32.680
<v Speaker 2>have you have to have emails sent to your phone,

0:29:32.720 --> 0:29:34.800
<v Speaker 2>for example, to set your account up, to set your

0:29:34.840 --> 0:29:37.840
<v Speaker 2>online banking up before your card arrives, for example, you

0:29:37.920 --> 0:29:41.760
<v Speaker 2>need ID and thankfully at Rainbow Lodge they've got relationships

0:29:41.800 --> 0:29:43.560
<v Speaker 2>with the people at the local bank, which helps it

0:29:43.640 --> 0:29:46.480
<v Speaker 2>run a bit smoother as well. But yeah, that first

0:29:46.520 --> 0:29:50.960
<v Speaker 2>couple of weeks of landing, yeah, it was about getting

0:29:50.960 --> 0:29:54.160
<v Speaker 2>to my parole appointments, getting my bank account set up,

0:29:55.080 --> 0:29:58.360
<v Speaker 2>getting a Medicare card, a healthcare card, getting center Link

0:29:58.400 --> 0:29:59.959
<v Speaker 2>sorted out so I had some kind of income.

0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:06.120
<v Speaker 1>You've got people there helping you technology. You step away

0:30:06.160 --> 0:30:08.720
<v Speaker 1>for six months, you'd be left six years. It was

0:30:08.840 --> 0:30:10.800
<v Speaker 1>six years. You have no idea what.

0:30:10.760 --> 0:30:13.720
<v Speaker 2>They're talking I didn't even know, like going to like

0:30:13.800 --> 0:30:15.640
<v Speaker 2>to pay like tap and go pay. It was different

0:30:15.640 --> 0:30:17.760
<v Speaker 2>because I hadn't really done that. I lived with cash

0:30:17.760 --> 0:30:19.680
<v Speaker 2>for such a long time as well. Yeah, and things

0:30:19.680 --> 0:30:22.440
<v Speaker 2>like that had changed so much since been in you know,

0:30:22.880 --> 0:30:25.200
<v Speaker 2>and catching public transport. I was like, watch an open card?

0:30:25.360 --> 0:30:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Why do I need an ople card? Can I just

0:30:26.760 --> 0:30:27.480
<v Speaker 2>pay when I get on it?

0:30:28.280 --> 0:30:30.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay? And like what we laugh? But you've got people

0:30:31.000 --> 0:30:34.800
<v Speaker 1>that this is probably an important point that you've got

0:30:34.880 --> 0:30:38.400
<v Speaker 1>people that there released from prison that could go either way,

0:30:38.480 --> 0:30:41.640
<v Speaker 1>and we've got this ridiculously high recidivism rate where people

0:30:41.680 --> 0:30:45.400
<v Speaker 1>go back in. I can understand coming out there, you're

0:30:45.440 --> 0:30:48.400
<v Speaker 1>carrying all the baggage from your childhood, You're carrying the

0:30:48.400 --> 0:30:52.160
<v Speaker 1>baggage from your time in prison. Anything could set you

0:30:52.200 --> 0:30:55.680
<v Speaker 1>off pretty easy. Like I could imagine just stuff this

0:30:55.920 --> 0:31:01.120
<v Speaker 1>I don't even know how to like opal card, I'm

0:31:01.120 --> 0:31:02.960
<v Speaker 1>going to jump the jump the thing. Then you'll be

0:31:03.040 --> 0:31:05.320
<v Speaker 1>arrested and before the courts.

0:31:05.400 --> 0:31:07.959
<v Speaker 2>And these little and these are the kinds of supports

0:31:08.000 --> 0:31:10.320
<v Speaker 2>they give young people coming out that the orcs that

0:31:10.440 --> 0:31:12.840
<v Speaker 2>look after young people. This is some of the stuff

0:31:12.840 --> 0:31:15.960
<v Speaker 2>they do as well. And it's such it seems so little,

0:31:16.000 --> 0:31:18.000
<v Speaker 2>but it can make it such a big difference because

0:31:18.920 --> 0:31:20.840
<v Speaker 2>for example, if I didn't go to Rainbow and I

0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:23.240
<v Speaker 2>had to try and navigate those things by myself, I

0:31:23.240 --> 0:31:25.760
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't have made my first parole appointment. Yeah, because you

0:31:25.800 --> 0:31:28.720
<v Speaker 2>have to go within forty eight hours, I'd be trying

0:31:28.720 --> 0:31:30.960
<v Speaker 2>to find something to sleep, or trying to get the

0:31:31.000 --> 0:31:33.680
<v Speaker 2>bank sordered or center. Think wouldn't be going to parole.

0:31:33.800 --> 0:31:35.920
<v Speaker 2>So just automatically breached paying.

0:31:35.960 --> 0:31:38.840
<v Speaker 1>There's a picture of what Rainbow Lodge is. It's accommodation.

0:31:39.040 --> 0:31:42.360
<v Speaker 1>You've all got to have your meals together. And it's

0:31:42.680 --> 0:31:45.880
<v Speaker 1>men that have been through what you've been through, and

0:31:45.920 --> 0:31:50.480
<v Speaker 1>so people that have walked the footsteps and cantride so talks.

0:31:51.000 --> 0:31:53.200
<v Speaker 1>You come out, you're carrying your little place bag of

0:31:53.360 --> 0:31:56.520
<v Speaker 1>worldly belongings and you rock up there. What the how

0:31:56.520 --> 0:31:57.040
<v Speaker 1>are you met?

0:31:57.560 --> 0:32:00.320
<v Speaker 2>So it's like it's this big old terrace house in Gleebe,

0:32:00.520 --> 0:32:05.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, two story terrorists in Glebe and with ten beds,

0:32:05.760 --> 0:32:10.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, eight rooms, ten beds, and yeah, you've got

0:32:11.280 --> 0:32:16.719
<v Speaker 2>a group of men from eighteen to fifties generally you know,

0:32:16.840 --> 0:32:21.280
<v Speaker 2>living there or with a high chance of reoffending. Basically,

0:32:21.320 --> 0:32:25.040
<v Speaker 2>so to be eligible that you have to have a

0:32:25.120 --> 0:32:29.000
<v Speaker 2>high something called LSR, which is like a rating that

0:32:29.000 --> 0:32:31.240
<v Speaker 2>the jail gives you when you leave that says they

0:32:31.280 --> 0:32:32.760
<v Speaker 2>think you're likely to come back.

0:32:33.480 --> 0:32:37.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well that's a good testament to the Rainbow Lodge

0:32:37.320 --> 0:32:40.640
<v Speaker 1>that they're not sending people that have already decided to

0:32:40.800 --> 0:32:44.360
<v Speaker 1>go down the straight and narrow. The only ones everyone's

0:32:44.520 --> 0:32:46.840
<v Speaker 1>thinking they're going to come back. We'll see in six montes.

0:32:46.920 --> 0:32:48.400
<v Speaker 2>And that was horrible when I got that as well.

0:32:48.440 --> 0:32:51.880
<v Speaker 2>When I saw that, I thankfully I had it because

0:32:51.880 --> 0:32:54.640
<v Speaker 2>it meant I was eligible. Yeah, but when I got it,

0:32:55.320 --> 0:32:56.920
<v Speaker 2>and I felt like I had a good chance of

0:32:56.960 --> 0:32:59.400
<v Speaker 2>making it, you know, and doing something with my life.

0:32:59.440 --> 0:33:02.040
<v Speaker 2>And then says, we actually think you're coming.

0:33:01.880 --> 0:33:02.880
<v Speaker 1>Back, and what's it called.

0:33:02.880 --> 0:33:04.800
<v Speaker 2>I think it's called the l s I R or

0:33:04.840 --> 0:33:10.840
<v Speaker 2>that rating. Yeah, and they look at your behavior most

0:33:10.880 --> 0:33:12.160
<v Speaker 2>like you're coming back coming back.

0:33:12.200 --> 0:33:13.520
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So that's how you got there.

0:33:13.920 --> 0:33:16.280
<v Speaker 2>And then so and then you get there and you're

0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:18.880
<v Speaker 2>living with a group of men, and you've got quite

0:33:18.920 --> 0:33:21.360
<v Speaker 2>a lot of autonomy compared to like a rehab or

0:33:21.360 --> 0:33:26.400
<v Speaker 2>something like that, where it's very structured and very monitored, micromanaged. Here,

0:33:26.480 --> 0:33:29.280
<v Speaker 2>it's much looser than that because we're trying to teach

0:33:29.320 --> 0:33:34.400
<v Speaker 2>the guys to have autonomy but also to to live

0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:38.120
<v Speaker 2>it in a group and to reintegrate, you know, and

0:33:38.200 --> 0:33:40.720
<v Speaker 2>that and that's hopefully the goal over that three months.

0:33:40.960 --> 0:33:45.480
<v Speaker 2>That's softer landing. It's about about helping the men reintegrate

0:33:45.840 --> 0:33:50.600
<v Speaker 2>into living by themselves and not going back and.

0:33:50.600 --> 0:33:54.560
<v Speaker 1>See I would imagine teaching your social skills. And my

0:33:55.040 --> 0:33:58.880
<v Speaker 1>observation of Rainbow Lodge, what do I see? It's almost

0:33:59.000 --> 0:34:02.040
<v Speaker 1>like people want to do the right thing because it

0:34:02.080 --> 0:34:06.640
<v Speaker 1>would be shameful not to take advantage of what's on

0:34:06.760 --> 0:34:07.240
<v Speaker 1>offer there.

0:34:07.360 --> 0:34:10.719
<v Speaker 2>It's such a massive opportunity, Yeah, that people are given

0:34:10.760 --> 0:34:15.000
<v Speaker 2>when they go there, and it's it's unfortunate that there's

0:34:15.000 --> 0:34:17.320
<v Speaker 2>not more places like Rainbow Lodge.

0:34:17.880 --> 0:34:21.919
<v Speaker 1>I one hundred percent agree. And you've got the force

0:34:22.000 --> 0:34:27.400
<v Speaker 1>of nature in Claude keeps everyone in the right direction.

0:34:27.719 --> 0:34:30.920
<v Speaker 1>But little things like having a meal together. And I

0:34:30.960 --> 0:34:33.160
<v Speaker 1>suppose people could look from the outside and go, well,

0:34:33.200 --> 0:34:38.359
<v Speaker 1>what's that about? But that's learning to communicate, learning to socialize,

0:34:38.440 --> 0:34:40.880
<v Speaker 1>So you're not seeing in your room just getting angry

0:34:40.960 --> 0:34:42.520
<v Speaker 1>and confused by true.

0:34:42.640 --> 0:34:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and so much a prison you eat by yourself

0:34:44.760 --> 0:34:47.040
<v Speaker 2>because you're locked in and they deliver the meals to

0:34:47.040 --> 0:34:48.600
<v Speaker 2>the room and you eat by yourself a lot of

0:34:48.600 --> 0:34:52.120
<v Speaker 2>the time, or maybe with one other person. Yeah, it's

0:34:52.120 --> 0:34:53.960
<v Speaker 2>a time for the guys to talk to get together

0:34:54.040 --> 0:34:57.319
<v Speaker 2>and talk to the support worker whoever's working that night.

0:34:57.480 --> 0:35:00.279
<v Speaker 2>And when I was talking about that kind of wrap

0:35:00.320 --> 0:35:05.319
<v Speaker 2>around services, and that's something Rainbow definitely provides because you know,

0:35:05.320 --> 0:35:07.240
<v Speaker 2>there's psychological services.

0:35:06.800 --> 0:35:08.960
<v Speaker 1>There, get access.

0:35:09.239 --> 0:35:12.200
<v Speaker 2>All the residents will say psychle once a week while

0:35:12.200 --> 0:35:15.360
<v Speaker 2>they're there. There's support with all those things like the

0:35:15.400 --> 0:35:17.360
<v Speaker 2>banking and all that kind of stuff I've just talked about.

0:35:18.080 --> 0:35:20.520
<v Speaker 2>For the indigenous guys, there's a lot of cultural activities

0:35:20.680 --> 0:35:25.360
<v Speaker 2>and connecting with elders and spending time on country and

0:35:26.640 --> 0:35:30.239
<v Speaker 2>people there to model like you know, good behavior and

0:35:30.320 --> 0:35:34.279
<v Speaker 2>model behavior of men as well, you know, And this

0:35:34.320 --> 0:35:35.920
<v Speaker 2>is stuff a lot of the guys and never had

0:35:35.960 --> 0:35:39.560
<v Speaker 2>an opportunity to do. And it works like it actually works.

0:35:39.640 --> 0:35:43.799
<v Speaker 2>And I was so blessed to go there. I can't

0:35:44.120 --> 0:35:46.080
<v Speaker 2>I can't imagine what my life would have been like

0:35:46.160 --> 0:35:48.560
<v Speaker 2>if I didn't have the opportunity, but I can imagine

0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:49.880
<v Speaker 2>I would have gone back in.

0:35:50.120 --> 0:35:53.319
<v Speaker 1>And so you spent three months here and where did

0:35:53.360 --> 0:35:53.960
<v Speaker 1>you go from there?

0:35:54.040 --> 0:35:58.160
<v Speaker 2>What happened fortunately for me, and a lot of the time,

0:35:59.120 --> 0:36:02.279
<v Speaker 2>the goal is to try and find the men either

0:36:02.440 --> 0:36:05.120
<v Speaker 2>semi permanent or permanent accommodation, but some kind of stable

0:36:05.160 --> 0:36:09.400
<v Speaker 2>accommodation once they leave. That's not always possible, but that

0:36:09.880 --> 0:36:13.160
<v Speaker 2>is the goal. Yeah, And I was fortunate enough to

0:36:14.760 --> 0:36:18.200
<v Speaker 2>get government housing. So I got government housing in Red Perone,

0:36:18.239 --> 0:36:19.880
<v Speaker 2>which is where I was kind of living before I

0:36:19.920 --> 0:36:23.719
<v Speaker 2>went in a lot of the time anyway. And yeah,

0:36:23.760 --> 0:36:26.279
<v Speaker 2>so after about three and a half months, I moved

0:36:26.280 --> 0:36:30.759
<v Speaker 2>into a government housing place in Redferne and Rainbow Lodge

0:36:30.760 --> 0:36:33.480
<v Speaker 2>to help furnish it. You know that they do some

0:36:33.520 --> 0:36:37.719
<v Speaker 2>work with another or Relove and some other places that

0:36:37.800 --> 0:36:40.040
<v Speaker 2>help with furnishing, and they did that, which you know,

0:36:40.640 --> 0:36:44.640
<v Speaker 2>I was really really thankful for. And yeah, I was

0:36:44.680 --> 0:36:47.880
<v Speaker 2>able to for the first time in six years, have

0:36:47.920 --> 0:36:50.000
<v Speaker 2>a place that I could say was my own and

0:36:50.160 --> 0:36:53.400
<v Speaker 2>was a safe place to be and start thinking about

0:36:53.560 --> 0:36:54.520
<v Speaker 2>what next.

0:36:55.120 --> 0:36:58.800
<v Speaker 1>And to me, it seems like a more real environment

0:36:58.840 --> 0:37:03.800
<v Speaker 1>than your little o mirror's drug dealing empire. Absolutely, and

0:37:03.880 --> 0:37:06.880
<v Speaker 1>you've got people that are genuinely there to help you,

0:37:06.880 --> 0:37:09.480
<v Speaker 1>absolutely have any benefit to themselves.

0:37:09.080 --> 0:37:10.759
<v Speaker 2>That's right. It was not transactional.

0:37:11.120 --> 0:37:15.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that must from the childhood you've come from,

0:37:15.160 --> 0:37:18.759
<v Speaker 1>where the neglect that you suffer, and it must have

0:37:18.840 --> 0:37:20.719
<v Speaker 1>been something completely foreign.

0:37:20.400 --> 0:37:24.000
<v Speaker 2>To absolutely and something else Rainbow Lodge does which a

0:37:24.000 --> 0:37:27.239
<v Speaker 2>lot of other rehabs and other places don't do, which

0:37:27.280 --> 0:37:31.920
<v Speaker 2>is the ongoing outreach support afterwards up to two years.

0:37:32.200 --> 0:37:33.719
<v Speaker 1>Then what form does that come in?

0:37:33.800 --> 0:37:36.800
<v Speaker 2>So that means that the men still have access to

0:37:37.560 --> 0:37:40.839
<v Speaker 2>Rainbow Lodge as a service and caseworkers. They can come

0:37:40.880 --> 0:37:42.640
<v Speaker 2>and have dinner if they want, just drop in and

0:37:42.640 --> 0:37:45.600
<v Speaker 2>have dinner, and it's a place to touch base. If

0:37:45.600 --> 0:37:48.759
<v Speaker 2>they need help with some medical issue or some other

0:37:49.800 --> 0:37:52.440
<v Speaker 2>administration or something like that that they're having difficulty with,

0:37:52.600 --> 0:37:55.399
<v Speaker 2>the caseworker can still help them. So all the guys

0:37:55.400 --> 0:37:58.200
<v Speaker 2>that leave and go through the program, they'll have a

0:37:58.239 --> 0:38:02.000
<v Speaker 2>caseworker who becomes their outreach work. And for me, that

0:38:02.160 --> 0:38:04.839
<v Speaker 2>meant afterwards, I was there was somewhere I could touch

0:38:04.880 --> 0:38:07.080
<v Speaker 2>base and somewhere I could reach out if I needed

0:38:07.360 --> 0:38:09.920
<v Speaker 2>needed help, you know, Okay, and I did need that

0:38:10.200 --> 0:38:10.920
<v Speaker 2>a couple of times.

0:38:11.200 --> 0:38:12.759
<v Speaker 1>The times where you're losing your way.

0:38:13.000 --> 0:38:15.000
<v Speaker 2>No, I wasn't losing my way, but I had some

0:38:15.080 --> 0:38:18.200
<v Speaker 2>medical things that had been unaddressed when I was in jail,

0:38:18.680 --> 0:38:20.680
<v Speaker 2>and you know, one of the things was I needed

0:38:20.719 --> 0:38:23.200
<v Speaker 2>to be picked up afterwards because I was going under

0:38:23.200 --> 0:38:23.880
<v Speaker 2>general anesthetic.

0:38:24.000 --> 0:38:25.120
<v Speaker 1>Oh right, as simple as that.

0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:26.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's like, well what am I going to do?

0:38:26.840 --> 0:38:29.080
<v Speaker 2>I can't just call it uber, yeah, you know. And

0:38:29.120 --> 0:38:32.120
<v Speaker 2>Claude came and picked me up after the after the operation,

0:38:32.360 --> 0:38:35.640
<v Speaker 2>and they helped pay for it as well, so because

0:38:35.680 --> 0:38:38.160
<v Speaker 2>I was living on Centering at the time and couldn't

0:38:38.160 --> 0:38:42.480
<v Speaker 2>afford that. So yeah, there are I remember sending a

0:38:42.480 --> 0:38:45.120
<v Speaker 2>message one time, it was about six months after and

0:38:45.640 --> 0:38:50.400
<v Speaker 2>saying thank you and just that they fulfill like in

0:38:50.440 --> 0:38:53.120
<v Speaker 2>a way like a surrogate family. I guess they fulfill

0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:55.799
<v Speaker 2>that role, you know. And it doesn't mean to get

0:38:55.840 --> 0:38:56.640
<v Speaker 2>hugs off everything.

0:38:56.760 --> 0:38:58.880
<v Speaker 1>But I don't think there's a kind of support, you know,

0:38:59.000 --> 0:39:02.560
<v Speaker 1>shame insane because it's almost like the family you've been looking.

0:39:02.280 --> 0:39:05.000
<v Speaker 2>For, that's right. They're reliable.

0:39:05.239 --> 0:39:08.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, and that's why the family should provide and

0:39:08.440 --> 0:39:11.960
<v Speaker 1>that's something that you didn't have absolutely when you're growing up.

0:39:12.520 --> 0:39:15.239
<v Speaker 1>How long has it been running for the brain bad Lodge.

0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:17.239
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure that's a long time. I think it

0:39:17.239 --> 0:39:18.440
<v Speaker 2>goes back into the sixties.

0:39:18.719 --> 0:39:21.719
<v Speaker 1>It's been running for a long time, clearly, and I

0:39:21.760 --> 0:39:24.080
<v Speaker 1>see it the functions that I've attended a few times

0:39:24.120 --> 0:39:29.000
<v Speaker 1>with the heavy hitters there, the politicians, judges and all

0:39:29.040 --> 0:39:31.920
<v Speaker 1>sorts of people supporting it.

0:39:31.960 --> 0:39:34.160
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of good will towards Rainbow Lodge.

0:39:34.239 --> 0:39:36.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, so it must have the runs on the

0:39:36.880 --> 0:39:41.799
<v Speaker 1>board been successful. A funny thing that works. Why it

0:39:41.960 --> 0:39:43.720
<v Speaker 1>can't be on the larger scale, But.

0:39:44.560 --> 0:39:46.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I was looking at something the other day.

0:39:46.560 --> 0:39:48.480
<v Speaker 2>It's a bit of a grape of mind that just

0:39:48.480 --> 0:39:50.840
<v Speaker 2>seeing where money is spent in other places, you know,

0:39:51.080 --> 0:39:55.800
<v Speaker 2>and people think that government's always talking about government money

0:39:55.800 --> 0:40:00.000
<v Speaker 2>being spent, taxpayer money being spent. Right, it's not government,

0:40:00.040 --> 0:40:03.840
<v Speaker 2>but it's taxpayer monet. And I think as taxpayers we

0:40:04.040 --> 0:40:06.319
<v Speaker 2>have the right for a safer community, right, and for

0:40:06.360 --> 0:40:07.759
<v Speaker 2>them to do what they can do to give us

0:40:07.760 --> 0:40:10.080
<v Speaker 2>a safe community and do the best job they can do.

0:40:10.880 --> 0:40:13.240
<v Speaker 2>And I always hear them banging on about the science,

0:40:13.520 --> 0:40:15.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, when it comes to the climate, it's always like,

0:40:15.600 --> 0:40:18.120
<v Speaker 2>listen to the science. Listen to the science, right, and okay,

0:40:18.239 --> 0:40:19.720
<v Speaker 2>we'll buy into that. We'll listen to the science.

0:40:19.960 --> 0:40:21.879
<v Speaker 1>That's a reasonable way to push a point.

0:40:21.960 --> 0:40:26.440
<v Speaker 2>But what about the science of recivitism and incarceration. All

0:40:26.480 --> 0:40:29.560
<v Speaker 2>the stats, government stats tell you it doesn't work, So

0:40:29.640 --> 0:40:32.160
<v Speaker 2>why not listen to the science there? And for me,

0:40:32.280 --> 0:40:34.240
<v Speaker 2>when you look at the stats of somewhere like Rainbow

0:40:34.440 --> 0:40:39.400
<v Speaker 2>or places like rehabilitation services, which are also desperately needed

0:40:40.160 --> 0:40:43.000
<v Speaker 2>because I think drugs is such a big driver of crime.

0:40:43.800 --> 0:40:47.080
<v Speaker 2>You know, so these are the things we need if

0:40:47.120 --> 0:40:51.360
<v Speaker 2>you really want to make safer communities and prevent crime,

0:40:51.440 --> 0:40:53.240
<v Speaker 2>that these are the things that need to be funded.

0:40:53.360 --> 0:40:55.480
<v Speaker 2>And it's not a left or right thing, it's a

0:40:55.680 --> 0:40:57.320
<v Speaker 2>do you want a safer community that?

0:40:57.440 --> 0:41:01.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think that's that scenarrative, and that gets lost

0:41:01.040 --> 0:41:04.640
<v Speaker 1>in the telling because people go, we're getting soft. Who

0:41:04.680 --> 0:41:06.840
<v Speaker 1>cares what happens to them when they release from prison?

0:41:07.800 --> 0:41:12.000
<v Speaker 1>You care when it's your class, well stupid if they

0:41:12.040 --> 0:41:15.399
<v Speaker 1>fall back in the crime, which all care. I see

0:41:15.440 --> 0:41:18.440
<v Speaker 1>even around Glube where it is the neighbors support the

0:41:18.960 --> 0:41:23.000
<v Speaker 1>which is a big That says a lot. You're having

0:41:23.640 --> 0:41:25.839
<v Speaker 1>all these X cons come here, but we don't want

0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:28.680
<v Speaker 1>them in this neighborhood. They're supportive it, so that that

0:41:28.800 --> 0:41:30.120
<v Speaker 1>says it says a great.

0:41:29.880 --> 0:41:32.680
<v Speaker 2>Deal on that. Yeah, I remember Claude talking about one

0:41:32.719 --> 0:41:35.919
<v Speaker 2>time an older and older lady down the road coming

0:41:35.960 --> 0:41:39.960
<v Speaker 2>and dropping lemons off these guys. Yeah, there's a cafe

0:41:40.080 --> 0:41:43.160
<v Speaker 2>up the road that puts to breakfast on once a week. Yeah,

0:41:43.160 --> 0:41:45.040
<v Speaker 2>it's really it's amazing.

0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:48.080
<v Speaker 1>And little things like that. How important is that to

0:41:48.160 --> 0:41:53.720
<v Speaker 1>someone like yourself that haven't seen that, that sort of gratitude.

0:41:53.920 --> 0:41:59.680
<v Speaker 2>And it's it's evidence that the people around you and

0:42:00.160 --> 0:42:02.839
<v Speaker 2>other people that there's good people out there. And because

0:42:02.840 --> 0:42:06.640
<v Speaker 2>when you're operating in the world of crime and in prison,

0:42:07.280 --> 0:42:10.480
<v Speaker 2>it's very easy to think that everyone is out to

0:42:10.560 --> 0:42:12.920
<v Speaker 2>get something from you, and that you can't trust people,

0:42:13.160 --> 0:42:18.399
<v Speaker 2>and that that people are inherently not good. And when

0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:22.040
<v Speaker 2>you come out and you start you know, if that's

0:42:22.320 --> 0:42:24.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, for me it was working and studying and

0:42:24.080 --> 0:42:25.560
<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing, or if it's when you look

0:42:25.560 --> 0:42:27.760
<v Speaker 2>at the community around you and see how like accepting

0:42:27.800 --> 0:42:30.879
<v Speaker 2>they are and you start realizing that there is another

0:42:30.920 --> 0:42:34.440
<v Speaker 2>way of living and that there's another way of being,

0:42:34.719 --> 0:42:38.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, and even that the way that the community

0:42:38.160 --> 0:42:42.600
<v Speaker 2>responds to Rainbow Lodge is it indication that there is

0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:46.239
<v Speaker 2>another way and that people I think are inherently good.

0:42:47.719 --> 0:42:52.480
<v Speaker 1>Education. You started studying what are you doing? And how

0:42:52.520 --> 0:42:53.800
<v Speaker 1>did how did that come about?

0:42:54.080 --> 0:42:57.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I wanted to study my whole life, attempted

0:42:58.160 --> 0:43:02.000
<v Speaker 2>a number of times, fail dozens of times that at

0:43:02.080 --> 0:43:02.920
<v Speaker 2>least time.

0:43:02.840 --> 0:43:05.520
<v Speaker 1>Too hard you to felt like you were too far behind.

0:43:05.440 --> 0:43:07.960
<v Speaker 2>Exactly like a start tape. I don't know how many

0:43:08.000 --> 0:43:10.040
<v Speaker 2>tape course I started and dropped out of, you know,

0:43:10.200 --> 0:43:13.440
<v Speaker 2>and something would come up, whether it was my mental

0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:16.040
<v Speaker 2>health or some kind of barrier, or I would just

0:43:16.080 --> 0:43:19.080
<v Speaker 2>get bored really quickly and I just couldn't stick it out.

0:43:19.120 --> 0:43:21.239
<v Speaker 2>And there was so much evidence that I couldn't stick

0:43:21.239 --> 0:43:26.239
<v Speaker 2>it out. It was soul crushing. But coming out of

0:43:26.520 --> 0:43:30.080
<v Speaker 2>out of prison and at Rainbow and having this period

0:43:30.120 --> 0:43:33.319
<v Speaker 2>of abstinence, you know, I really felt like I had

0:43:33.320 --> 0:43:34.839
<v Speaker 2>a good crack at it at this time and could

0:43:34.920 --> 0:43:39.680
<v Speaker 2>do it and just really single minded about about completing something.

0:43:40.200 --> 0:43:44.000
<v Speaker 2>And I had also decided I wanted to work in

0:43:44.040 --> 0:43:48.160
<v Speaker 2>the community service industry and give something back, especially after

0:43:48.200 --> 0:43:50.920
<v Speaker 2>that time in Rainbow. That really solidified for me that

0:43:51.560 --> 0:43:54.239
<v Speaker 2>this is the industry I wanted to work in, and

0:43:54.280 --> 0:43:58.320
<v Speaker 2>that my history might actually be a benefit to people

0:43:58.600 --> 0:44:01.960
<v Speaker 2>that I'm working with. Definitely, and so I thought, this

0:44:02.080 --> 0:44:05.440
<v Speaker 2>is what I can do, you know, and turn what's

0:44:05.600 --> 0:44:12.600
<v Speaker 2>been a pretty tragic life into something positive. So tragic

0:44:12.680 --> 0:44:15.680
<v Speaker 2>up until then, you know. And yeah, so I did

0:44:15.719 --> 0:44:20.440
<v Speaker 2>community services at TATHE, which was such a fantastic experience

0:44:21.040 --> 0:44:25.080
<v Speaker 2>for someone coming out of prison to get to spend

0:44:25.080 --> 0:44:27.640
<v Speaker 2>time around people that I normally wouldn't get to spend

0:44:27.640 --> 0:44:31.080
<v Speaker 2>time around, a lot of international students, other people that

0:44:31.400 --> 0:44:35.439
<v Speaker 2>you know, really wanted to give back to community. And yeah,

0:44:35.440 --> 0:44:37.560
<v Speaker 2>it was just a really really good experience and it

0:44:37.640 --> 0:44:39.080
<v Speaker 2>really helped me open up.

0:44:39.640 --> 0:44:43.640
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, I'm not seeing here laughing at you. I'm

0:44:43.680 --> 0:44:46.719
<v Speaker 1>laughing laughing with you in the fact that you're seeing

0:44:46.760 --> 0:44:49.320
<v Speaker 1>there are good people out out in the world. Absolutely,

0:44:49.440 --> 0:44:53.200
<v Speaker 1>it's taken you to your absolutely late thirties where you're

0:44:55.120 --> 0:44:59.000
<v Speaker 1>you're seeing seeing good people in the world. Yeah, And

0:44:59.080 --> 0:45:03.640
<v Speaker 1>I would imagine studying, getting qualifications, passing stuff, must get

0:45:04.040 --> 0:45:05.479
<v Speaker 1>raise yourself absolutely self.

0:45:06.080 --> 0:45:08.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, So it was like once I did that,

0:45:08.360 --> 0:45:09.120
<v Speaker 2>it's like what next.

0:45:09.320 --> 0:45:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So.

0:45:11.880 --> 0:45:15.239
<v Speaker 2>I'd really eventually like to be a psychologist and doing

0:45:15.239 --> 0:45:17.040
<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing. So that's kind of where I'm aiming.

0:45:17.680 --> 0:45:22.000
<v Speaker 2>I did a counseling diploma after the community services and

0:45:22.840 --> 0:45:25.760
<v Speaker 2>now I'm at your need studying while while I'm working.

0:45:25.840 --> 0:45:31.640
<v Speaker 1>So if you're studying something you enjoy, it doesn't It's true,

0:45:31.800 --> 0:45:35.120
<v Speaker 1>that's what I like, something you're interested in it. That's

0:45:35.160 --> 0:45:38.319
<v Speaker 1>not hard work, That's true. When can I get back

0:45:38.360 --> 0:45:38.680
<v Speaker 1>into it?

0:45:39.360 --> 0:45:41.640
<v Speaker 2>Rainbow has been really supportive of that as well. You

0:45:41.680 --> 0:45:44.800
<v Speaker 2>know that when I was at Tape when my computer died,

0:45:44.960 --> 0:45:47.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, and Claude helped me get a computer, and

0:45:48.200 --> 0:45:50.399
<v Speaker 2>I just owe them so much. You know, they really

0:45:50.440 --> 0:45:51.360
<v Speaker 2>have helped me a lot.

0:45:51.800 --> 0:45:54.720
<v Speaker 1>It keeps telling me he's a good person, but.

0:45:54.760 --> 0:45:55.840
<v Speaker 2>You can't tell when you talk to me.

0:45:57.960 --> 0:45:59.839
<v Speaker 1>I think we're going to have to acknowledge cool, these

0:45:59.880 --> 0:46:02.600
<v Speaker 1>are good No. The first time I saw him was

0:46:02.680 --> 0:46:08.080
<v Speaker 1>at Government House and there was Supreme Court judges there,

0:46:08.280 --> 0:46:10.920
<v Speaker 1>the head of the Dpper, a whole whole range of people.

0:46:10.960 --> 0:46:13.279
<v Speaker 1>I'd been invited. This is after I just left the

0:46:13.320 --> 0:46:17.720
<v Speaker 1>police and I'm a little bit lost and wandering around

0:46:18.000 --> 0:46:21.640
<v Speaker 1>the Government House and I see someone. I think, I

0:46:21.719 --> 0:46:23.840
<v Speaker 1>think you and I got something in common that we

0:46:23.960 --> 0:46:26.359
<v Speaker 1>could we could talk about. And that's where I met him.

0:46:27.200 --> 0:46:30.840
<v Speaker 1>Next time I saw him speaking at Parliament House. Invited

0:46:30.880 --> 0:46:34.480
<v Speaker 1>to another event there at State Parliament. But yeah, he's

0:46:34.760 --> 0:46:37.880
<v Speaker 1>he's a power sources. What the work wise, what are

0:46:37.920 --> 0:46:38.200
<v Speaker 1>you doing?

0:46:38.520 --> 0:46:40.359
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I'm actually working at Rainbow Lots.

0:46:40.480 --> 0:46:40.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:46:40.800 --> 0:46:43.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so that was it was a goal of mine

0:46:43.280 --> 0:46:45.880
<v Speaker 2>when I was there. Yeah, you know, and like a

0:46:45.960 --> 0:46:48.560
<v Speaker 2>quiet goal of mine that yeah, which was like, yeah,

0:46:48.600 --> 0:46:52.000
<v Speaker 2>I want to work here one day and yeah. And

0:46:52.120 --> 0:46:55.120
<v Speaker 2>initially I was working as an offsider on a garbage truck,

0:46:55.600 --> 0:46:59.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, something else Cord helped me with to find

0:46:59.560 --> 0:47:02.759
<v Speaker 2>that work, you know, through another organization at the time.

0:47:02.880 --> 0:47:06.080
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, so started off there and I was able

0:47:06.120 --> 0:47:08.160
<v Speaker 2>to do that, which helped me study part time. It

0:47:08.239 --> 0:47:11.319
<v Speaker 2>was just a bit of part time work and yeah,

0:47:11.360 --> 0:47:13.839
<v Speaker 2>and then a position became available at Rainbow and by

0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:17.919
<v Speaker 2>then I'd already done my diploma and done this so forth.

0:47:18.080 --> 0:47:20.640
<v Speaker 2>So I think he felt like, you know, the had

0:47:20.680 --> 0:47:24.919
<v Speaker 2>the academic and the lived experience, you know, and I thought,

0:47:25.080 --> 0:47:26.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, he'd give me the opportunity to have a

0:47:27.000 --> 0:47:30.200
<v Speaker 2>go of it and see how I'd go. And it

0:47:30.320 --> 0:47:31.160
<v Speaker 2>wasn't easy at first.

0:47:31.680 --> 0:47:34.879
<v Speaker 1>No, I would imagine that it's confronting. Can you tell

0:47:34.960 --> 0:47:37.480
<v Speaker 1>us about the examples of we've got the sense of

0:47:37.680 --> 0:47:41.000
<v Speaker 1>what it did for you without without identifying the person

0:47:41.880 --> 0:47:45.560
<v Speaker 1>someone that has come there that Rainbow has helped that

0:47:45.680 --> 0:47:48.680
<v Speaker 1>you thought surprised because I'm sure you would still have

0:47:48.840 --> 0:47:52.440
<v Speaker 1>your jail sense about you. Okay, what's this person carrying?

0:47:52.480 --> 0:47:57.359
<v Speaker 1>There's a hyper alertness to problems. Did you have someone

0:47:57.440 --> 0:47:59.279
<v Speaker 1>come there? You think we're not going to we're not

0:47:59.360 --> 0:48:01.839
<v Speaker 1>going to win this bloke over, but someone that really

0:48:02.360 --> 0:48:03.040
<v Speaker 1>turns to the ram.

0:48:03.520 --> 0:48:06.359
<v Speaker 2>It happens more often than you think. It's really hard

0:48:06.400 --> 0:48:11.719
<v Speaker 2>to pick who will make it through the program. And

0:48:12.480 --> 0:48:16.399
<v Speaker 2>it's also it's something that you know, I've talked about

0:48:16.400 --> 0:48:17.920
<v Speaker 2>and I'm sure the other people at work and we

0:48:18.000 --> 0:48:23.040
<v Speaker 2>talk about sometimes actually what is success and what is

0:48:23.080 --> 0:48:25.719
<v Speaker 2>a successful time at a place like Rainbow or any

0:48:25.760 --> 0:48:29.040
<v Speaker 2>other rehab another rehab or something not that Rainbow's a rehabit,

0:48:29.760 --> 0:48:31.800
<v Speaker 2>any other kind of service like that. How do you

0:48:31.920 --> 0:48:34.800
<v Speaker 2>gauge success? And it's different for different people, you know,

0:48:35.440 --> 0:48:38.759
<v Speaker 2>for some people, you know, I've had guys tell me

0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:41.919
<v Speaker 2>that going through the program, it's the first time they've

0:48:41.960 --> 0:48:45.840
<v Speaker 2>gone through parole without breaching parole, you know, and for

0:48:45.920 --> 0:48:48.879
<v Speaker 2>them that's a massive success. And you know, I really

0:48:49.400 --> 0:48:52.560
<v Speaker 2>acknowledge that and applaud that because for some guys that's

0:48:52.600 --> 0:48:54.560
<v Speaker 2>the first time in twenty years or thirty years they've

0:48:54.600 --> 0:48:57.760
<v Speaker 2>made it through parole, you know, so that that's an achievement,

0:48:57.840 --> 0:49:00.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, And for other people that's I mean more

0:49:01.280 --> 0:49:04.680
<v Speaker 2>it's it's finding work, and it's living by themselves and

0:49:05.120 --> 0:49:08.640
<v Speaker 2>having like healthy relationships and and you know, doing that

0:49:08.800 --> 0:49:11.160
<v Speaker 2>kind of thing for other people is just staying out

0:49:11.160 --> 0:49:15.359
<v Speaker 2>of prison, you know, And even if that means not working,

0:49:15.480 --> 0:49:17.560
<v Speaker 2>maybe they're not able to work yet and maybe that's

0:49:17.600 --> 0:49:20.560
<v Speaker 2>not a goal, but maybe staying out of prison their goal.

0:49:20.840 --> 0:49:25.360
<v Speaker 2>And having having a relationship with family, you know that

0:49:25.440 --> 0:49:27.960
<v Speaker 2>they haven't been able to have before because of prison

0:49:28.080 --> 0:49:32.200
<v Speaker 2>and drugs and crime. And yeah, so there's in terms

0:49:32.239 --> 0:49:34.759
<v Speaker 2>of people that have surprised me, there's definitely been a few,

0:49:34.840 --> 0:49:39.960
<v Speaker 2>you know. You know, there was one guy who I'm

0:49:39.960 --> 0:49:41.759
<v Speaker 2>not going to say names. You know, he came through

0:49:41.840 --> 0:49:44.080
<v Speaker 2>one time and within a couple of weeks and I'd

0:49:44.200 --> 0:49:48.080
<v Speaker 2>just started, you know, and he'd overdosed and it was

0:49:48.320 --> 0:49:50.960
<v Speaker 2>it was pretty intense and I just started. It was

0:49:50.960 --> 0:49:54.719
<v Speaker 2>pretty confronting for me as well, you know, and yeah,

0:49:54.840 --> 0:49:58.600
<v Speaker 2>he had to leave afterwards because you can't he's not

0:49:58.600 --> 0:49:59.920
<v Speaker 2>allowed to stay with that kind of thing. You know.

0:50:00.120 --> 0:50:02.120
<v Speaker 2>He really really did reach it because he had drugs

0:50:02.160 --> 0:50:04.879
<v Speaker 2>on him and this kind of stuff as well. Any

0:50:04.920 --> 0:50:08.279
<v Speaker 2>other if it wasn't rehab or any other place, there's

0:50:08.360 --> 0:50:10.440
<v Speaker 2>no chance he would have been able to come back, right,

0:50:10.520 --> 0:50:13.920
<v Speaker 2>They wouldn't let him come back, you know. And where

0:50:14.000 --> 0:50:16.800
<v Speaker 2>was this fellow, you know, six months later or a

0:50:16.880 --> 0:50:19.120
<v Speaker 2>year later, maybe maybe he's asked if he can come

0:50:19.160 --> 0:50:21.200
<v Speaker 2>back again, and Claude said, I'll give you another go,

0:50:21.880 --> 0:50:26.080
<v Speaker 2>you know. And when Claude said it, I was thinking,

0:50:26.200 --> 0:50:28.960
<v Speaker 2>there's no chance because my last recollection of this guy,

0:50:29.040 --> 0:50:30.360
<v Speaker 2>what he was like, there was no chance he was

0:50:30.400 --> 0:50:32.680
<v Speaker 2>going to go do it. You know, he wasn't going

0:50:32.760 --> 0:50:34.920
<v Speaker 2>to go well. He even said some things to me

0:50:35.160 --> 0:50:36.960
<v Speaker 2>at the time. You know, I just thought there was

0:50:37.000 --> 0:50:38.360
<v Speaker 2>no chance he's going to do it well, you know.

0:50:39.160 --> 0:50:43.719
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, he did really well, you know, and he

0:50:44.880 --> 0:50:48.520
<v Speaker 2>completed the program, didn't use drugs again, you know, got

0:50:48.560 --> 0:50:51.799
<v Speaker 2>really healthy. It's really good to see. It's beautiful to see.

0:50:52.000 --> 0:50:54.560
<v Speaker 2>And just hope the very best for him moving forward

0:50:54.600 --> 0:50:54.960
<v Speaker 2>as well.

0:50:55.400 --> 0:50:58.400
<v Speaker 1>That well, yeah, of one life saved or pointed in

0:50:58.480 --> 0:51:00.560
<v Speaker 1>the right direction, and the impact that that can have.

0:51:02.040 --> 0:51:04.200
<v Speaker 1>My observation of it, all the sense I get of

0:51:04.280 --> 0:51:06.839
<v Speaker 1>it too, you'd be calling each other on bullshit too,

0:51:07.080 --> 0:51:10.320
<v Speaker 1>Like when you're having having the meals, and it wouldn't

0:51:10.360 --> 0:51:14.719
<v Speaker 1>be a tough guy jail conversation. You'd be talking about emotions,

0:51:14.760 --> 0:51:18.640
<v Speaker 1>talking about relationship. True, And I think that's so healthy

0:51:18.719 --> 0:51:22.120
<v Speaker 1>for a group of that. It's better than them going

0:51:22.160 --> 0:51:24.120
<v Speaker 1>down the pub hooking up with their old crew and

0:51:25.320 --> 0:51:27.200
<v Speaker 1>prison was a piece of piece blah blah blah.

0:51:27.280 --> 0:51:27.480
<v Speaker 2>True.

0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:30.840
<v Speaker 1>You'd be blokes there that I would imagine there'd be

0:51:30.920 --> 0:51:34.800
<v Speaker 1>some interesting and very honest and emotional conversations around the

0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:35.359
<v Speaker 1>mill table.

0:51:35.600 --> 0:51:39.320
<v Speaker 2>And that's another thing that happened at Rainbow. One of

0:51:39.360 --> 0:51:42.239
<v Speaker 2>the other support workers does the role I do, also

0:51:42.360 --> 0:51:46.799
<v Speaker 2>runs to men's group, and that's a really like, yeah,

0:51:46.960 --> 0:51:49.000
<v Speaker 2>a time where the guys sit down and they're really

0:51:49.080 --> 0:51:52.040
<v Speaker 2>open and talk about, you know, their feelings and things

0:51:52.080 --> 0:51:54.279
<v Speaker 2>that are going on for them, and really open up

0:51:54.520 --> 0:51:57.480
<v Speaker 2>and in a way that they probably haven't some of

0:51:57.520 --> 0:51:58.080
<v Speaker 2>them maybe ever.

0:51:58.480 --> 0:51:58.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:51:59.800 --> 0:52:02.200
<v Speaker 2>I know Claude talks about it and I can't remember

0:52:02.239 --> 0:52:05.560
<v Speaker 2>the exact terminology, but it's like we'll try and provide

0:52:05.560 --> 0:52:08.799
<v Speaker 2>a whole bunch of services, Like there's music therapy, there's

0:52:08.920 --> 0:52:12.680
<v Speaker 2>art therapy, as psychologists, there's day trips, there's dinner. There's

0:52:13.520 --> 0:52:16.800
<v Speaker 2>there's the time spent with like incidental counseling. There's like

0:52:16.920 --> 0:52:20.160
<v Speaker 2>the time spent as a group. There's the behavior management.

0:52:20.160 --> 0:52:22.120
<v Speaker 2>There's all this different stuff going on, and it's like

0:52:23.080 --> 0:52:26.960
<v Speaker 2>if some of it gels, you know, you can't expect

0:52:26.960 --> 0:52:29.040
<v Speaker 2>all of it to gel with everyone. But there's the

0:52:29.120 --> 0:52:31.080
<v Speaker 2>gym as well. You know, there's there's all these different

0:52:31.160 --> 0:52:33.960
<v Speaker 2>things and you just hope that some of it will gel.

0:52:34.200 --> 0:52:36.759
<v Speaker 2>And even if a couple of those things kind of

0:52:36.880 --> 0:52:39.640
<v Speaker 2>make an impact, they can they can really help help

0:52:39.760 --> 0:52:41.040
<v Speaker 2>change the difference.

0:52:41.560 --> 0:52:46.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I hope it, hope it continues. On your submission,

0:52:46.440 --> 0:52:49.080
<v Speaker 1>How did it come about that you did the submission

0:52:49.160 --> 0:52:51.360
<v Speaker 1>for the parliamentary inquiry.

0:52:52.040 --> 0:52:56.799
<v Speaker 2>Yes, so I was approached by someone from the Raise

0:52:56.840 --> 0:53:01.680
<v Speaker 2>the Age campaign. Yeah yeah, and yeah, she might't mind

0:53:01.719 --> 0:53:03.919
<v Speaker 2>me saying her name, but Emily approached me from RAS

0:53:04.080 --> 0:53:07.920
<v Speaker 2>Raise the Age, and yeah, we she just said, you know,

0:53:08.000 --> 0:53:10.719
<v Speaker 2>would you like to come and be part of this.

0:53:11.840 --> 0:53:13.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, she'd heard a little bit about my story

0:53:13.440 --> 0:53:15.759
<v Speaker 2>as well, and we went through and talked a little

0:53:15.760 --> 0:53:18.240
<v Speaker 2>bit kind of like what you and I have done today,

0:53:18.360 --> 0:53:22.440
<v Speaker 2>and you know, we realized that my story is an

0:53:22.480 --> 0:53:26.000
<v Speaker 2>example of what can go wrong, you know, when when

0:53:26.480 --> 0:53:28.680
<v Speaker 2>a young person isn't given the support they needed, and

0:53:28.880 --> 0:53:32.839
<v Speaker 2>it also highlights what can be done done right. Yeah,

0:53:32.920 --> 0:53:37.040
<v Speaker 2>so yeah, a lot of that was done through race age.

0:53:37.080 --> 0:53:38.800
<v Speaker 2>And then Emily said, you know, but I like to

0:53:38.840 --> 0:53:42.759
<v Speaker 2>make a submission and I said absolutely, and it just

0:53:42.800 --> 0:53:43.359
<v Speaker 2>went from there.

0:53:44.120 --> 0:53:48.880
<v Speaker 1>Powerful stuff and hopefully with the submissions, not just yours,

0:53:48.920 --> 0:53:50.719
<v Speaker 1>with all the other ones in there, but some some

0:53:50.880 --> 0:53:53.960
<v Speaker 1>good will will comes out of it and some some understanding.

0:53:54.000 --> 0:53:57.839
<v Speaker 1>Because getting back on the youth crime situation, I've been

0:53:57.920 --> 0:54:01.720
<v Speaker 1>sitting in people often asks, yeah, I'll have mates that'll

0:54:01.760 --> 0:54:03.839
<v Speaker 1>be saying, well, you know, they should lock them up.

0:54:03.880 --> 0:54:06.880
<v Speaker 1>And it's not that if we locked up everyone you

0:54:06.960 --> 0:54:08.879
<v Speaker 1>think should be locked up, there'd be no one out.

0:54:11.000 --> 0:54:14.680
<v Speaker 1>We're locking everyone. But yeah, all the and the narrative

0:54:14.719 --> 0:54:17.120
<v Speaker 1>that plays out in the media. But it's much deeper,

0:54:17.200 --> 0:54:21.000
<v Speaker 1>isn't it. That We've talked in the second part about

0:54:21.120 --> 0:54:23.600
<v Speaker 1>Rainbow Lodge, and that's from the adult point of view,

0:54:24.080 --> 0:54:27.080
<v Speaker 1>but it all goes back to what happens as a child.

0:54:27.200 --> 0:54:29.759
<v Speaker 1>Don't say you found yourself in Rainbow the Lodge. To

0:54:29.880 --> 0:54:32.719
<v Speaker 1>start with, what happened happened as a child.

0:54:33.200 --> 0:54:36.400
<v Speaker 2>And that's the I think that's the thing that is

0:54:36.480 --> 0:54:41.320
<v Speaker 2>really highlighted by my story, which is that if the

0:54:41.760 --> 0:54:45.680
<v Speaker 2>support that that I've been given at Rainbow happened when

0:54:45.719 --> 0:54:49.440
<v Speaker 2>I was eighteen or seventeen or any other time, you know,

0:54:49.640 --> 0:54:52.480
<v Speaker 2>but especially as a young person, all this could have

0:54:52.520 --> 0:54:53.080
<v Speaker 2>been prevented.

0:54:53.360 --> 0:54:53.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know.

0:54:54.120 --> 0:54:57.680
<v Speaker 2>And I think about the the literally millions of dollars

0:54:58.120 --> 0:55:00.439
<v Speaker 2>of taxpayer money that's been spent on me. I didn't

0:55:00.480 --> 0:55:04.200
<v Speaker 2>pay tax for thirty something years. I mean, I literally

0:55:04.520 --> 0:55:08.640
<v Speaker 2>gave nothing back. All I did was like cause harmed

0:55:08.680 --> 0:55:11.520
<v Speaker 2>in the community around me, or the only tax I

0:55:11.600 --> 0:55:13.040
<v Speaker 2>paid was through stuff I was buying.

0:55:14.200 --> 0:55:18.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, again, if it comes comes down to an argument,

0:55:18.520 --> 0:55:20.759
<v Speaker 1>if we're not saying, well, it's the right thing to do,

0:55:20.840 --> 0:55:21.640
<v Speaker 1>because it's the right.

0:55:22.080 --> 0:55:24.319
<v Speaker 2>Just playing look look at the fine exactly. And I'm

0:55:24.320 --> 0:55:26.440
<v Speaker 2>happy to think about it that way. And I think

0:55:26.480 --> 0:55:28.720
<v Speaker 2>that's fair enough to look at it that way. Everyone

0:55:28.760 --> 0:55:30.839
<v Speaker 2>doesn't have to care about everyone else if they don't

0:55:30.880 --> 0:55:34.040
<v Speaker 2>want to. But if you want a safer community and

0:55:34.120 --> 0:55:38.319
<v Speaker 2>you don't want your taxpayers dollars wasted, there's another way

0:55:38.320 --> 0:55:38.480
<v Speaker 2>to do.

0:55:38.800 --> 0:55:40.840
<v Speaker 1>And I think it would be fair to say, and

0:55:41.120 --> 0:55:42.920
<v Speaker 1>I look at it. I haven't been in the system,

0:55:42.960 --> 0:55:46.200
<v Speaker 1>but I've seen the results of the system. You get

0:55:46.280 --> 0:55:50.239
<v Speaker 1>tough on the kids a crime without some sort of

0:55:50.920 --> 0:55:55.600
<v Speaker 1>intervention or redirecting them, you're just going to build tougher, harder,

0:55:57.120 --> 0:55:59.560
<v Speaker 1>are going to come out and inflict it.

0:56:00.440 --> 0:56:01.160
<v Speaker 2>And whose faults that?

0:56:01.480 --> 0:56:01.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:56:01.880 --> 0:56:03.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know what I mean is that? Can you

0:56:03.600 --> 0:56:06.040
<v Speaker 2>really blame that child or even that adult when they

0:56:06.120 --> 0:56:09.920
<v Speaker 2>do that? Because we know we know what works, we

0:56:10.040 --> 0:56:12.320
<v Speaker 2>know what doesn't work. The government knows what works and

0:56:12.400 --> 0:56:14.920
<v Speaker 2>what doesn't work. They've got the evidence. People have been

0:56:15.440 --> 0:56:19.439
<v Speaker 2>screaming it for years. Like you could do a quick

0:56:19.520 --> 0:56:22.360
<v Speaker 2>Google search on anything and say, you know, stats on crime,

0:56:22.560 --> 0:56:27.080
<v Speaker 2>stats on reciptism doesn't work. Yeah, it's just you don't

0:56:27.120 --> 0:56:28.479
<v Speaker 2>have to be left or right the answer.

0:56:29.160 --> 0:56:33.759
<v Speaker 1>And once you know we've got that media pushing the

0:56:33.840 --> 0:56:38.279
<v Speaker 1>aspect of youth, try on youth crime. Yeah, well that's right.

0:56:38.800 --> 0:56:41.640
<v Speaker 1>We're seeing the media building now. But that that is

0:56:41.719 --> 0:56:45.640
<v Speaker 1>the reality of it, And I think, yeah, we could

0:56:45.760 --> 0:56:47.799
<v Speaker 1>use the media in a positive way and say, okay,

0:56:47.920 --> 0:56:50.520
<v Speaker 1>let's look at the alternatives, let's look at how we

0:56:50.640 --> 0:56:51.880
<v Speaker 1>can how we can change it.

0:56:52.000 --> 0:56:54.319
<v Speaker 2>I guess that's part of what you're highlighting now.

0:56:54.440 --> 0:56:57.640
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm trying to like I when I finish the police,

0:56:58.000 --> 0:57:01.640
<v Speaker 1>I still wanted to fight. But what I've realized since

0:57:01.640 --> 0:57:03.640
<v Speaker 1>I've got out of the police, there's other ways of

0:57:04.040 --> 0:57:08.680
<v Speaker 1>fighting crime, and people like yourself and Claude and a

0:57:08.760 --> 0:57:12.839
<v Speaker 1>whole range of people, there's definitely different ways, and if

0:57:12.880 --> 0:57:16.600
<v Speaker 1>we fall onto a more of an Eastern philosophy of

0:57:16.720 --> 0:57:20.560
<v Speaker 1>prevention is better than cure. I think start at the

0:57:20.640 --> 0:57:26.840
<v Speaker 1>kids when they talk about putting money into policing. We

0:57:27.000 --> 0:57:30.320
<v Speaker 1>need police and anyone that says we don't regret as naive,

0:57:30.960 --> 0:57:36.120
<v Speaker 1>but pour it into education too. Like education, like you

0:57:36.280 --> 0:57:39.800
<v Speaker 1>move around the fifteen different schools. Maybe if more money

0:57:39.920 --> 0:57:42.240
<v Speaker 1>was in education, they could have identified, hey, there's a

0:57:42.280 --> 0:57:45.320
<v Speaker 1>problem going on with absolutely what can we do and

0:57:45.840 --> 0:57:50.560
<v Speaker 1>the benefits of end education. Good teachers, role models and

0:57:50.800 --> 0:57:51.520
<v Speaker 1>mental teachers.

0:57:51.640 --> 0:57:53.760
<v Speaker 2>I think they can play a really big part two.

0:57:53.920 --> 0:57:55.720
<v Speaker 2>And I think there's been a lot of evidence for

0:57:55.840 --> 0:57:59.680
<v Speaker 2>that of you know, people we lived experience being mentalised.

0:58:00.880 --> 0:58:03.120
<v Speaker 1>I keep pushing that and it saddens me. I see

0:58:03.160 --> 0:58:06.520
<v Speaker 1>too many times people that I can see men and

0:58:06.680 --> 0:58:08.680
<v Speaker 1>women that have turned their life around. I think they've

0:58:08.720 --> 0:58:11.960
<v Speaker 1>got such a valuable message they could pass on, but

0:58:12.080 --> 0:58:15.240
<v Speaker 1>they hit the hurdles of oh, we can't can't engage

0:58:15.280 --> 0:58:17.840
<v Speaker 1>you because of what you've done well the very reason

0:58:17.920 --> 0:58:23.040
<v Speaker 1>because you've done that why they need. Normally, at the

0:58:23.200 --> 0:58:26.680
<v Speaker 1>end of a podcast, I thank you, which I will do,

0:58:29.360 --> 0:58:33.280
<v Speaker 1>I thank you and say that you've left an impression,

0:58:33.360 --> 0:58:35.720
<v Speaker 1>which you have. But I want you to be the

0:58:35.800 --> 0:58:38.200
<v Speaker 1>last voice and that if it's okay, and I'm putting

0:58:38.240 --> 0:58:40.280
<v Speaker 1>you on the spot here, I want you to read

0:58:40.360 --> 0:58:44.000
<v Speaker 1>out these are the final four paragraphs of the submission

0:58:44.240 --> 0:58:47.360
<v Speaker 1>you made, and I just want people to listen to

0:58:47.440 --> 0:58:49.680
<v Speaker 1>that and sit on that, because I don't think there's

0:58:49.680 --> 0:58:52.120
<v Speaker 1>anything I can say that carries more way to that.

0:58:53.400 --> 0:58:56.800
<v Speaker 2>Imagine if children like me were given this opportunity earlier.

0:58:57.640 --> 0:58:59.800
<v Speaker 2>I think my life could have been very different if

0:58:59.840 --> 0:59:02.640
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't punished for my disadvantage and the abuse I

0:59:02.800 --> 0:59:06.760
<v Speaker 2>enjoyed as a child. Locking kids up doesn't work. It

0:59:06.840 --> 0:59:09.680
<v Speaker 2>didn't work for me or for thousands of children who

0:59:09.720 --> 0:59:12.680
<v Speaker 2>have been locked up after me. What we do to

0:59:12.800 --> 0:59:16.640
<v Speaker 2>children shapes their future, and children grow up, we should

0:59:16.680 --> 0:59:19.920
<v Speaker 2>remember they are part of our communities. We need a

0:59:20.000 --> 0:59:22.800
<v Speaker 2>better way where kids get the support they need to

0:59:22.840 --> 0:59:26.080
<v Speaker 2>have a sense of belonging, learn to be accountable and

0:59:26.160 --> 0:59:31.280
<v Speaker 2>get the opportunities and thrive. Thanks, good on mate, Now,

0:59:31.360 --> 0:59:33.000
<v Speaker 2>thank you, thank you, I really appreciating it.

0:59:33.280 --> 0:59:35.840
<v Speaker 1>All the best for the future and say in touch

0:59:35.920 --> 0:59:37.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah fantastic, Thank you Jeeves.