Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life the average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: In part two of my chat with Lincoln Tarot Lynch,
Speaker 1: we talk about youth crime and ways that we could
Speaker 1: do things differently. We also delve into Lincoln's life of crime.
Speaker 1: They always seem destined to pursue how he turned his
Speaker 1: life around. I ask you to listen to what Lincoln
Speaker 1: says right at the end of this episode. It's extremely
Speaker 1: powerful and needs to be heard. Lincoln, Welcome back. Part
Speaker 1: two of I Catch Killers. I enjoyed the enjoyed the
Speaker 1: chat in part one, and when I say enjoy it
Speaker 1: was a pretty heavy, heavy topic that you talk about.
Speaker 1: You're talking about your childhood and it's certainly not a
Speaker 1: childhood that people born into this world. You'd like to
Speaker 1: think there's a little bit more support and love for it.
Speaker 1: I did a podcast, as you know, with Claude robertson
Speaker 1: the other day and Vince Early, and there was an
Speaker 1: article that came out on the back of that podcast
Speaker 1: and talking about Claude and Vince. You know them both
Speaker 1: well and you've got to know me and just some
Speaker 1: our views on crime, and there was a narrative because
Speaker 1: we touched on youth crime like we did in part
Speaker 1: one a discussion with you, and there was some feedback
Speaker 1: from the public that, yeah, you've got to get tougher
Speaker 1: on kids. The parents should be responsible, and that seemed
Speaker 1: to be a real push on the on the feedback
Speaker 1: parents are responsible for their actions on their kids. In
Speaker 1: an ideal world, we'd like that to be, but I
Speaker 1: think you're an example that your parents weren't the type
Speaker 1: that could be responsible for raising the child. So what
Speaker 1: do you what do you say the people that go
Speaker 1: all it's that's the parents responsibility.
Speaker 2: And I think that that's it's kind of fair enough,
Speaker 2: and it's an easy assumption to make. And I think
Speaker 2: a lot of the assumptions you make off the bat
Speaker 2: are really easy to make, you know, And that's that
Speaker 2: is one of them, which is like, oh, well, children
Speaker 2: are kind of like their parents are responsible for them.
Speaker 2: They've got bad behavior, it's a parent's fault. And that
Speaker 2: might be the case, But what if the parents themselves
Speaker 2: have got their own issues going on, and maybe they're
Speaker 2: not able to be as responsible as they would like
Speaker 2: to be as well, and they've ended up being parents,
Speaker 2: and maybe they don't have the skills, all the skills
Speaker 2: to raise the children in a way that that kid's
Speaker 2: not going to get into trouble. And it doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that they don't have the ability to do it. And
Speaker 2: maybe that that and not maybe, but that is part
Speaker 2: of where the care that that child needs. And we're
Speaker 2: talking about the wrap around service, and for a lot
Speaker 2: of these kids, that wrap around service includes their family
Speaker 2: as well. Yeah, you know, and so maybe, you know,
Speaker 2: part of it is also helping the parents.
Speaker 1: Helping the parents exactly to help themselves exactly.
Speaker 2: So they can actually do that, and because that's the
Speaker 2: ideal situation, is that the child gets to stay with
Speaker 2: their parents and they get to have a relationship with
Speaker 2: their parents, and their parents get to have a relationship
Speaker 2: with them, and they can be a support network for
Speaker 2: each other like they're meant to be, and that's going
Speaker 2: to be a big part of helping that child not
Speaker 2: keep getting into trouble and not end up being a
Speaker 2: threat to their community and going to prison and this
Speaker 2: cycle continuing.
Speaker 1: It makes sense, but it's with the narrative that the
Speaker 1: parents should be responsible. It's a bit of a simplistic
Speaker 1: and naive. It is view. It is I can see
Speaker 1: that from being a police officer. You can see that
Speaker 1: from living the life that you were grown up in.
Speaker 1: It's not that it's not an ideal world. And sometimes
Speaker 1: the parents aren't aren't being to support.
Speaker 2: The children, and even some parents maybe it's not necessarily
Speaker 2: their fault, and there's other stuff going on with that child,
Speaker 2: like maybe the child's had something that's happened to them
Speaker 2: outside of the home that's got them in this having
Speaker 2: these kind of behaviors and the parents and it's not
Speaker 2: the parents fault, and the parents don't know what to do,
Speaker 2: and there's plenty of them, Like there was plenty of
Speaker 2: kids when I was homeless as a young person, and
Speaker 2: they had a good home, yeah, you know, but there
Speaker 2: was other stuff going on for them that forced them out,
Speaker 2: you know. And even in terms of we're talking about
Speaker 2: like maybe queer kids that have been forced out of home,
Speaker 2: that's a perfect opportunity to be talking to the parents
Speaker 2: and for someone from maybe their community to help them,
Speaker 2: you know, understand what's going on with their child and
Speaker 2: help them keep that relationship and keep them either if
Speaker 2: not at home, at least have a have a healthier relationship,
Speaker 2: because a kid with a healthy relationship with his parents
Speaker 2: is going to be a better behave child most definitely.
Speaker 1: I get the sense talking to you there's not you
Speaker 1: understand that there's not a one thing fixers all, definitely,
Speaker 1: And I think each kids an individual circumstances are agreed,
Speaker 1: and that's that's the way we've got to got to approach.
Speaker 2: It needs to be tailored to what to what that
Speaker 2: child needs.
Speaker 1: I'm going to and I did say up front, I'm
Speaker 1: going to keep referring to your submission to the inquiry,
Speaker 1: but I think it was so powerful. Some of the
Speaker 1: things that were said, I just really had another quote them.
Speaker 1: We can talk about that. But while locked up, I
Speaker 1: did not receive a mental health assessment, counseling, or meaningful
Speaker 1: help for planning my life after release. I was sentenced
Speaker 1: to community service and place in the refuge. Here, I
Speaker 1: was again assaulted by an adult I trusted. The experience
Speaker 1: fundamentally undermined any trust I had in the support professionals,
Speaker 1: and was kicked out of the refuge for bad behavior.
Speaker 1: I bring you attention to the first part. I did
Speaker 1: not receive any mental health assessment, counseling, or meaningful help
Speaker 1: to plan a life after release. Breaking that down, how
Speaker 1: do you think that would have helped you when you're
Speaker 1: in detention? Youth detention.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's the currently a lot of children when
Speaker 2: they're released, I released back into whatever circumstances are in
Speaker 2: before they went to prison.
Speaker 1: What do we think is going to happen exactly?
Speaker 2: You know, So if a kid in an understable home
Speaker 2: environment or maybe not at home, or they've got a
Speaker 2: dressed mental health issues before they go in, and then
Speaker 2: they're just released back out, it's just it won't be
Speaker 2: long before they're back in and the stats show it,
Speaker 2: it's like fifty percent of kids go back, you know,
Speaker 2: above fifty percent of kids go back. So I'm a
Speaker 2: big fan of therapy and psychology and because you know,
Speaker 2: it's how else are you going to change someone's behaviors
Speaker 2: if you don't help them change the way they think?
Speaker 2: And so I think that, you know, for helping address
Speaker 2: the issues and the behaviors of young people, psychology has
Speaker 2: to be a big part of it. And I also
Speaker 2: think there needs to be not just releasing someone and
Speaker 2: then going Okay, now we'll try and sort out the
Speaker 2: issues after their release. These things need to happen weeks
Speaker 2: and weeks months before their release, so that this planning
Speaker 2: needs to start beforehand. And I know there are some
Speaker 2: services that do that and they've got really amazing, amazing results,
Speaker 2: you know. So it's like twelve weeks before release they
Speaker 2: start like, look at supporting this child and working out
Speaker 2: what they can do to prevent them going back in.
Speaker 1: That's an important thing because I could imagine I can
Speaker 1: just see how the system would work. They'd everyone would
Speaker 1: be giving themselves a pat on the back that when
Speaker 1: Lincoln's released, he's going to have to see someone and
Speaker 1: do this and do that right, but you're going to
Speaker 1: have an opportunity to fall back into old habits. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you need that sort of work done on you.
Speaker 2: A soft re entry into society. I was thinking about
Speaker 2: this last night and thinking for people that are listening.
Speaker 2: If tomorrow you were exitent from wherever you're living and
Speaker 2: from home or weaver you're living right now, but you
Speaker 2: don't have a mobile phone with you. You've got no idea,
Speaker 2: no money, no transport card, nothing at all except the
Speaker 2: clothes you're wearing, and no family and no one you
Speaker 2: can rely on that's going to help you get a home.
Speaker 2: What are you going to do? Actually? What like really
Speaker 2: think about it? What are you going to do? Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's what most people leave in prison face, Like half
Speaker 2: of people leaving prison like that, including children. It's just
Speaker 2: a well what can you do? Like what itcedn't if
Speaker 2: you're going.
Speaker 1: I won't treat that there's a hypothetical question or true
Speaker 1: that the Okay, if I was put in a position,
Speaker 1: well you got to eat, so and if you haven't
Speaker 1: got money, you can't can't get food from somewhere, You're
Speaker 1: going to steal it exactly you're going to get some
Speaker 1: money from somewhere you haven't got somewhere to sleep, or
Speaker 1: I'd be looking at breaking into a place from somewhere
Speaker 1: that's safe to sleep. So, yeah, I can see what
Speaker 1: you're saying.
Speaker 2: And you're not doing that because you're a bad person,
Speaker 2: or you're trying to like hurt other people or take
Speaker 2: something from someone else. You might be taking something from
Speaker 2: someone else, but you're not doing because you want to
Speaker 2: take something from someone else. You're doing because you're trying
Speaker 2: to survive. Yeah, you know, And that's the position we
Speaker 2: put a lot of a lot of people in and
Speaker 2: then wonder why a few months later in prison. That's
Speaker 2: kind of it's maddening.
Speaker 1: It is strange, but I think the way that people
Speaker 1: look at it and look, I've got to put my
Speaker 1: hand up here as well. The more I've been out
Speaker 1: of the police and sitting down speaking to people like yourself,
Speaker 1: because I didn't have the opportunity to do that as
Speaker 1: much in the police, it's opened my eyes up to
Speaker 1: how hard it is. I always thought, you know, someone
Speaker 1: that put away when they get out of jail and yeah,
Speaker 1: well they've done their time. Hopefully they'll turn it round.
Speaker 1: But it won't surprise me when they go back in
Speaker 1: or locking them up again.
Speaker 2: And you think other person's like, they've probably stopped using
Speaker 2: drugs while they're in prison, They've got a good opportunity,
Speaker 2: they look well fared. We've done something good for them.
Speaker 2: That's a circuit breaker. Yeah, it kind of looks like that.
Speaker 1: It's crazy your adult adult life. So when did you
Speaker 1: first hit the adult prisons first time?
Speaker 2: I was thirty yep, as an adult.
Speaker 1: So how are you surviving between the.
Speaker 2: Teams and things. I was mostly selling drugs, So most
Speaker 2: of that time it was selling pot, pot and MDMA,
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. Like at the time, I considered
Speaker 2: like softer kind of drugs, you know, And I guess
Speaker 2: pot is in some ways of softer kind of drugs. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I sold like enough of that just to kind
Speaker 2: of get by, pay my bills and do what I
Speaker 2: needed to do. I wasn't trying to like live some
Speaker 2: kind of super luxurious life or bring much attention on myself. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I think that's why I evaded trouble for so long.
Speaker 1: Did you form a network of family, friends or relationships not?
Speaker 2: Not really. I definitely struggled with that. Yeah, so from
Speaker 2: you know, everything that happened growing up, I found it
Speaker 2: very very difficult to form meaningful relationships with anyone, especially
Speaker 2: friendships and that kind of thing. Like most friendships are
Speaker 2: even if they were good ones, I would push them away.
Speaker 2: Most relationships with like intimate partners were also like really
Speaker 2: very unhealthy, right, There's a lot going on there as well,
Speaker 2: and a lot of them were based around drug dealing
Speaker 2: and that kind of stuff. And then when you've got
Speaker 2: a transactional relationship with a partner, it's not going to
Speaker 2: be going to be a healthy relationship.
Speaker 1: Did you like your mental health and the way you
Speaker 1: were looking at the world. We're still carrying anger and
Speaker 1: resentment and the fact that I know you now and
Speaker 1: I was so impressed when I heard you talk with
Speaker 1: that function at Rainbow Lodge that did you think you
Speaker 1: will get into amount to anything at this period of
Speaker 1: time we're talking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like twenties days. At some point I would have, like,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe thoughts that were grandiose thoughts even and
Speaker 2: other times felt like I would absolutely amount to nothing
Speaker 2: at all, you know. And in terms of anger, I
Speaker 2: was definitely angry, and my temper was like nothing else,
Speaker 2: you know, like the amount of times I've jumped out
Speaker 2: of the car with a baseball bat or a MACHETI
Speaker 2: and you know, like ticking time absolutely, yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: like multiple times had my girlfriend just screaming at me
Speaker 2: to stop whatever I was doing because I've just gone
Speaker 2: and just started smashing someone's car apart because they've stopped
Speaker 2: too quickly in front of me and you know, on
Speaker 2: the road or something. You know, just completely completely wild.
Speaker 1: I know the type of person. It is, a ticking time.
Speaker 1: I was like that, Yeah, it was sooner or later
Speaker 1: you were going to end up in prison.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just I can't believe it. It took
Speaker 2: so long, I was. Yeah, you know, I don't know
Speaker 2: how how I got away with it. There was so
Speaker 2: many close encounters, you know.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of the attitude that you would have would
Speaker 1: have had made me so many clothes to avoid it.
Speaker 2: I'd often talked my way out of it, to be honest. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I've been pulled over with guns in the car and
Speaker 2: big amounts of drugs in the car and just talked
Speaker 2: and talked.
Speaker 1: And talking to stop the cop even though anyway, search
Speaker 1: have a.
Speaker 2: Good day and just kind of redirecting, Okay, well, let's help.
Speaker 1: Let's a skill. Yeah, I can can imagine. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: even with your charm and your skills are negotiating eventually,
Speaker 1: got your tell us, tell us what happened there?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure, so I'll tell you leading up to that first,
Speaker 2: you know, because I think it's an important part of
Speaker 2: the story. And that's not not the high life part.
Speaker 2: It's not an important part, but i'd kind of I've
Speaker 2: been looking for a way out of the lifestyle for
Speaker 2: some time and the the addiction because at this point
Speaker 2: i'd been using ice for about six years.
Speaker 1: As well, that's what I's going to win.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I was nearly forty at this point, and
Speaker 2: I've been using ice and I couldn't stop. I tried,
Speaker 2: and I couldn't. I tried to get into rehabit I
Speaker 2: couldn't multiple times, and I just could not see a
Speaker 2: way out. And my lifestyle and my ability to pay
Speaker 2: my bills and my rent was tied into dealing and
Speaker 2: as was my addiction, and I couldn't see a way out.
Speaker 2: And I was absolutely terrified of becoming homeless. And this
Speaker 2: is something that even that stuck with me as an adult,
Speaker 2: this thought of like what if I end up homeless again,
Speaker 2: which it is fair enough to be terrified of being homeless.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I was living in this beautiful apartment, Meriton
Speaker 2: apartment in the city with a view all the way
Speaker 2: up and down the coast, really luxurious lifestyle. At this point,
Speaker 2: I'd kind of decided I was going to like knuckle
Speaker 2: down and kind of sell more than I had been
Speaker 2: and try and retire. And the idea was like, make
Speaker 2: a bit a decent chunk of money, move overseas, detox,
Speaker 2: get on with my life, you know.
Speaker 1: Live like a citizen.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I never would have worked. You know, looking back,
Speaker 2: I would have ended up back doing what I was doing,
Speaker 2: because there'd be no reason not to know. But that's
Speaker 2: the way I thought at the time. But I was like,
Speaker 2: even though I had this like really from the outside,
Speaker 2: really amazing lifestyle, it seemed like I had everything I wanted,
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, I could just
Speaker 2: do anything I wanted it if I wanted, other than
Speaker 2: stop using ice. Yeah, and I remember for a long time,
Speaker 2: I'd be in the bathroom, you know, with the door
Speaker 2: locked and no one knew, trying to find a vein
Speaker 2: with a needle and literally just just tears dropping down,
Speaker 2: you know, from my eyes onto the arm where I
Speaker 2: was trying to find a vein and just hating myself
Speaker 2: absolutely so much shame and yeah, just absolute I just
Speaker 2: loathed myself, and I knew what I was doing was
Speaker 2: wrong by this point in life. If I was, I'd
Speaker 2: learned enough about who I wanted to be as a
Speaker 2: person to know that taking part in selling the drugs
Speaker 2: I was selling was wrong and that incongruency, and and
Speaker 2: that knowing that I was moving in a direction that
Speaker 2: was morally against you my values, but not being able
Speaker 2: to stop.
Speaker 1: Was a contrace that was evolving like it was because
Speaker 1: it was probably wasn't vagues that were instilled in you
Speaker 1: as a child.
Speaker 2: It wasn't as a child, but they evolved over time. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but my behaviors weren't in alignment and looking values in.
Speaker 1: The mirror, trying to stick a needle in your arm
Speaker 1: and knowing that you're dealing these drugs and you would
Speaker 1: have just been looking at the grubby What have I
Speaker 1: become a grubby addict?
Speaker 2: And knowing that like the that all the money I
Speaker 2: had was on the backs of people that were suffering.
Speaker 1: Okay, so and I hated that because if anyone it's
Speaker 1: been dealing drugs, I always asked, you contemplate the impact
Speaker 1: that's had on the same your profiting off other people's briefs.
Speaker 2: But understand I definitely did, Yeah, definitely, and that that
Speaker 2: was a big part of what was eating me up.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah. So funnily enough, I was praying a
Speaker 2: lot for a way out, yeah, you know, and the
Speaker 2: way out wasn't the one I was praying for. So yeah,
Speaker 2: that whole that whole thing is careful what you wish,
Speaker 2: I can't do this anymore. Whatever helped you out, God, exactly,
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it wasn't.
Speaker 1: You thought that you're just going to get to kick
Speaker 1: the habit? Exactly, great marafter.
Speaker 2: Good cheap tickets or something overas like something nice to stay.
Speaker 2: That's what I was praying for.
Speaker 1: Prayers were hands, they were not in the way that
Speaker 1: you expect. What happened.
Speaker 2: So it was one morning, beautiful sunny morning January, the
Speaker 2: sunlight pouring into the apartment of these floor to ceiling windows,
Speaker 2: you know, and I was just getting ready to go
Speaker 2: out and buy like a kilo of MDMA, which was
Speaker 2: like a kind of normal thing to do on it
Speaker 2: on an eight am in the morning, and yeah, it
Speaker 2: was just a really nice, chill morning top of the world.
Speaker 2: Other than the addiction stuff, but I felt good that day,
Speaker 2: you know, and about to go out and I heard
Speaker 2: this like muffled sound of men yelling, just this strange
Speaker 2: sound I hadn't heard before, like lots of men yelling.
Speaker 2: And before I had a chance to kind of work
Speaker 2: out what that was, the door just burst in and
Speaker 2: then the unit was just flooded with guys with automatic
Speaker 2: rifles and tactical gear and what have you, you know,
Speaker 2: And the next minute, yeah, there was like a dozen
Speaker 2: a dozen police in the in the unit, and you know,
Speaker 2: I was pinned down. My partner at the time was
Speaker 2: pinned down. Yeah. It was a really it was a shocking,
Speaker 2: a shocking experience. And you know, they came in and
Speaker 2: just sort of ripped everything apart, and at the same
Speaker 2: time they were raiding a couple of units that I had.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, you must have really come under the under
Speaker 1: the radar. I did come after you.
Speaker 2: I did, And it was as far as I know
Speaker 2: it was. There was someone that owed me some money
Speaker 2: that I'd been dealing with for some time. We'd known
Speaker 2: each other kind of as mate for a while and
Speaker 2: not many people knew where I lived, and it wasn't
Speaker 2: something I normally would people normally wouldn't know. But it
Speaker 2: was a mistake I made. But it doesn't matter now.
Speaker 2: But yeah, he owed me some money and I kind
Speaker 2: of pressured him to pay that money back, right, thought
Speaker 2: it was easier just to get rid of me.
Speaker 1: Well, cautionary chile to a people thinking of starting a
Speaker 1: greed deal in drugs, that is that is the way
Speaker 1: it unravels inbearably.
Speaker 2: And I should have listened to Mom, which was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: in that kind of circumstance, she would have said, don't
Speaker 2: let anyone know where you live.
Speaker 1: If you're hearing a group of muffled men going down
Speaker 1: all the way, you probably probably be in trouble. Look,
Speaker 1: we're laughing at it, and I know that sort of
Speaker 1: cheapening it that you understand the life that you're living
Speaker 1: was not a good, good life. Yeah, it's probably you know,
Speaker 1: if a system has worked at least if this is
Speaker 1: the starting point of change.
Speaker 2: So it was also like I'm laughing about it now,
Speaker 2: but it was. It was one of the worst experiences
Speaker 2: of my life, you know, like going back to the
Speaker 2: cells afterwards and sitting in the cell and just realizing
Speaker 2: that I don't know how many people have made mistakes,
Speaker 2: big mistakes that they wish they could turn back time,
Speaker 2: you know, and if you know that feeling, you know
Speaker 2: that feeling you know when you've done something.
Speaker 1: I think most of us I wish I.
Speaker 2: Could turn back time. And that realization that there was
Speaker 2: nothing I could do to change the course of history
Speaker 2: and changed where the direction I was moving in is
Speaker 2: really distressing. And you know, and I cried, and I
Speaker 2: was in the cells, and I was like, fuck, it's
Speaker 2: I don't know what's coming, but I know I'm going
Speaker 2: to jail for a long time.
Speaker 1: And you wouldn't have got bio.
Speaker 2: Definitely not. Yeah, no, definitely not.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, And what did you end up getting charged
Speaker 1: and convicted of?
Speaker 2: So there's a bit over a kilo of ice, about
Speaker 2: sixty kilos of GHB, Yeah, a couple of firearms, stampsial
Speaker 2: amount of money.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not getting weak into attention.
Speaker 2: I'm definitely not getting weak int attention. Yeah, it was
Speaker 2: a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what how how long did you end up getting
Speaker 1: six years? Tell me about your prison experience.
Speaker 2: It was like for everyone, it's tough. It's it's not
Speaker 2: it's tough. For anyone that says it isn't is lying.
Speaker 2: You know. Some people might get used to it in
Speaker 2: a way, but I definitely didn't get used to it.
Speaker 2: And a couple of years would have been easy. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, I would have done that quite easily, and
Speaker 2: I would have come out and kept doing what I
Speaker 2: was doing, okay, you know, because it would be easy.
Speaker 2: But six years was. Yeah, it was tough. And yeah,
Speaker 2: realizing that the life that you have and that the
Speaker 2: people you know and all that kind of stuff is
Speaker 2: just literally over and realizing you've been ripped out of
Speaker 2: that and having to come to terms with that. For me,
Speaker 2: and this happens to a lot of people, some of
Speaker 2: the relationships that you have come to an end while
Speaker 2: you're in prison. And for me that was with mum,
Speaker 2: you know. And so I actually hadn't seen her for
Speaker 2: ten years before I went to jail, but I still
Speaker 2: loved her, you know. But while I was in prison,
Speaker 2: she got sick with cancer. I was able to see
Speaker 2: her twice. In maximum security. We had very limited contact,
Speaker 2: like we were about to hug once I'm told to
Speaker 2: stop hugging that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: And then that's tough. Yeah, yeah, and that made that
Speaker 1: you're in jail, but it doesn't take away from the
Speaker 1: human human emotions. But how tough that that is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she she died a couple of years into
Speaker 2: my sentence, and that was really tough. You know. It
Speaker 2: was just so much unresolved stuff, you know, between us
Speaker 2: that we never got to resolve that that we really
Speaker 2: probably could have if we sat down and talked a bit.
Speaker 2: And that's something I definitely regret not being able to do.
Speaker 2: But there's not nothing I can do about that. Now.
Speaker 1: Did you keep yourself out of trouble in prison.
Speaker 2: For the first couple of years, I did, Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: the first year in a bit, I did. But old
Speaker 2: habits die hard, yeah, you know. And I saw an
Speaker 2: opportunity to sell drugs again, yeah, you know, and had
Speaker 2: caught big court feats to hey, you know, my legal
Speaker 2: costs were pretty high, and yeah, it's what I knew,
Speaker 2: and it kept me occupied and I did you know,
Speaker 2: I sold sold different drugs for a couple of years,
Speaker 2: ice and that kind of stuff and other drugs in jail.
Speaker 2: They made prison much harder. Selling drugs in jail makes
Speaker 2: life a lot harder because it just means that you're yeah,
Speaker 2: you end up in more fights and more drama and more.
Speaker 2: It's much more stressful than just than not doing it.
Speaker 2: But also the time kind of goes quicker when you're high. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So so for a couple of years, Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: I smoked a lot of ice and I took a
Speaker 2: lot of drugs for a couple of years. But I'd
Speaker 2: always and I'd known when I went in that I
Speaker 2: was going to leave without a drug habit. And so
Speaker 2: two years out is when I decided to stop everything
Speaker 2: and start working towards my release. Yeah. Yeah, so just
Speaker 2: I quit.
Speaker 1: How hard would that be to do in that environment?
Speaker 2: It was difficult, but I really had enough of it
Speaker 2: by then as well. You know, obviously I didn't like
Speaker 2: being addicted, you know, and it still went back to
Speaker 2: those same feelings of addiction and which I didn't want.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I also enjoy training and feeling healthy and
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. So it was it was actually
Speaker 2: pretty easy to stop, right, yeah, because it ultimately like
Speaker 2: it feels better to not be addicted to anything and
Speaker 2: to feel healthy ultimately feels better.
Speaker 1: Yea, So six years you do the be released. Is
Speaker 1: that where you came into contact with Rainbow Lodge?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sure was. Yeah, And I think this is
Speaker 2: what when I'm when I'm talking about the people being
Speaker 2: released into homelessness and the challenges that people that people face,
Speaker 2: and that the real challenge. It's definitely not theoretical from
Speaker 2: my point of view, it's something I've experienced. And yeah,
Speaker 2: like when I left, literally left with a plastic bag,
Speaker 2: that scenario I put to you before of no phone,
Speaker 2: no idea, no money, the clothes you're wearing. That that's
Speaker 2: how I left prison.
Speaker 1: Not the support family or.
Speaker 2: No, there was no family by then. You know, mom
Speaker 2: had passed, my grandmother was almost passed. My sister doesn't
Speaker 2: want a relationship with me, So yeah, there was no
Speaker 2: there was no family to support me. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: left not knowing what I was going to do. I've
Speaker 2: been paroled to a Rainbow Lodge, but I didn't know
Speaker 2: what to expect. Thankfully I went there, Okay, thankfully, Oh
Speaker 2: my gosh. If I didn't, I was going back in.
Speaker 1: I'm a big believer in what's done there and Rainbow Lodge.
Speaker 1: If people that might have heard Claude robertson the program
Speaker 1: talk about it, and by god he talks wonder if
Speaker 1: politicians are scared of him once he's got.
Speaker 2: Your I heard you say yesterday, maybe he should go.
Speaker 2: Has he thought about politics? Yeah, I can see.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I could see it too. But it's a residential
Speaker 1: program that helps men like Lincoln here who re enter
Speaker 1: community after prison. So tell us about that experience and
Speaker 1: why it made a difference to you.
Speaker 2: Sure. So, like I said, I was leaving and my
Speaker 2: options were insecure accommodation, maybe a boarding house or something
Speaker 2: like that, very temporary accommodation or Rainbow Lodge, which was
Speaker 2: a potentially three months of accommodation with support. And I
Speaker 2: didn't actually realize how important the kind of support they
Speaker 2: were going to give me would be, you know, as
Speaker 2: someone who hadn't really had to go to parole much
Speaker 2: before or navigate that kind of post release responsibilities. And
Speaker 2: also someone who'd never, you know, since I was a kid,
Speaker 2: had to deal with having no phone or no idea
Speaker 2: or no money because I had money in my whole
Speaker 2: life and never really had to not have money since
Speaker 2: I was a kid, So I was always used to
Speaker 2: having those kind of resources and coming out and not
Speaker 2: having any of those things that those are the kinds
Speaker 2: of things that Rainbow Lodge does provide people and it
Speaker 2: actually works, and you don't realize how important it is
Speaker 2: to have someone help you get your phone connected, and
Speaker 2: someone to go with you to a bank to help
Speaker 2: you get a bank account.
Speaker 1: So those little things that we do make such a
Speaker 1: big difference.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because just getting a bank account you need to
Speaker 2: have you have to have emails sent to your phone,
Speaker 2: for example, to set your account up, to set your
Speaker 2: online banking up before your card arrives, for example, you
Speaker 2: need ID and thankfully at Rainbow Lodge they've got relationships
Speaker 2: with the people at the local bank, which helps it
Speaker 2: run a bit smoother as well. But yeah, that first
Speaker 2: couple of weeks of landing, yeah, it was about getting
Speaker 2: to my parole appointments, getting my bank account set up,
Speaker 2: getting a Medicare card, a healthcare card, getting center Link
Speaker 2: sorted out so I had some kind of income.
Speaker 1: You've got people there helping you technology. You step away
Speaker 1: for six months, you'd be left six years. It was
Speaker 1: six years. You have no idea what.
Speaker 2: They're talking I didn't even know, like going to like
Speaker 2: to pay like tap and go pay. It was different
Speaker 2: because I hadn't really done that. I lived with cash
Speaker 2: for such a long time as well. Yeah, and things
Speaker 2: like that had changed so much since been in you know,
Speaker 2: and catching public transport. I was like, watch an open card?
Speaker 2: Why do I need an ople card? Can I just
Speaker 2: pay when I get on it?
Speaker 1: Okay? And like what we laugh? But you've got people
Speaker 1: that this is probably an important point that you've got
Speaker 1: people that there released from prison that could go either way,
Speaker 1: and we've got this ridiculously high recidivism rate where people
Speaker 1: go back in. I can understand coming out there, you're
Speaker 1: carrying all the baggage from your childhood, You're carrying the
Speaker 1: baggage from your time in prison. Anything could set you
Speaker 1: off pretty easy. Like I could imagine just stuff this
Speaker 1: I don't even know how to like opal card, I'm
Speaker 1: going to jump the jump the thing. Then you'll be
Speaker 1: arrested and before the courts.
Speaker 2: And these little and these are the kinds of supports
Speaker 2: they give young people coming out that the orcs that
Speaker 2: look after young people. This is some of the stuff
Speaker 2: they do as well. And it's such it seems so little,
Speaker 2: but it can make it such a big difference because
Speaker 2: for example, if I didn't go to Rainbow and I
Speaker 2: had to try and navigate those things by myself, I
Speaker 2: wouldn't have made my first parole appointment. Yeah, because you
Speaker 2: have to go within forty eight hours, I'd be trying
Speaker 2: to find something to sleep, or trying to get the
Speaker 2: bank sordered or center. Think wouldn't be going to parole.
Speaker 2: So just automatically breached paying.
Speaker 1: There's a picture of what Rainbow Lodge is. It's accommodation.
Speaker 1: You've all got to have your meals together. And it's
Speaker 1: men that have been through what you've been through, and
Speaker 1: so people that have walked the footsteps and cantride so talks.
Speaker 1: You come out, you're carrying your little place bag of
Speaker 1: worldly belongings and you rock up there. What the how
Speaker 1: are you met?
Speaker 2: So it's like it's this big old terrace house in Gleebe,
Speaker 2: you know, two story terrorists in Glebe and with ten beds,
Speaker 2: you know, eight rooms, ten beds, and yeah, you've got
Speaker 2: a group of men from eighteen to fifties generally you know,
Speaker 2: living there or with a high chance of reoffending. Basically,
Speaker 2: so to be eligible that you have to have a
Speaker 2: high something called LSR, which is like a rating that
Speaker 2: the jail gives you when you leave that says they
Speaker 2: think you're likely to come back.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well that's a good testament to the Rainbow Lodge
Speaker 1: that they're not sending people that have already decided to
Speaker 1: go down the straight and narrow. The only ones everyone's
Speaker 1: thinking they're going to come back. We'll see in six montes.
Speaker 2: And that was horrible when I got that as well.
Speaker 2: When I saw that, I thankfully I had it because
Speaker 2: it meant I was eligible. Yeah, but when I got it,
Speaker 2: and I felt like I had a good chance of
Speaker 2: making it, you know, and doing something with my life.
Speaker 2: And then says, we actually think you're coming.
Speaker 1: Back, and what's it called.
Speaker 2: I think it's called the l s I R or
Speaker 2: that rating. Yeah, and they look at your behavior most
Speaker 2: like you're coming back coming back.
Speaker 1: Okay, So that's how you got there.
Speaker 2: And then so and then you get there and you're
Speaker 2: living with a group of men, and you've got quite
Speaker 2: a lot of autonomy compared to like a rehab or
Speaker 2: something like that, where it's very structured and very monitored, micromanaged. Here,
Speaker 2: it's much looser than that because we're trying to teach
Speaker 2: the guys to have autonomy but also to to live
Speaker 2: it in a group and to reintegrate, you know, and
Speaker 2: that and that's hopefully the goal over that three months.
Speaker 2: That's softer landing. It's about about helping the men reintegrate
Speaker 2: into living by themselves and not going back and.
Speaker 1: See I would imagine teaching your social skills. And my
Speaker 1: observation of Rainbow Lodge, what do I see? It's almost
Speaker 1: like people want to do the right thing because it
Speaker 1: would be shameful not to take advantage of what's on
Speaker 1: offer there.
Speaker 2: It's such a massive opportunity, Yeah, that people are given
Speaker 2: when they go there, and it's it's unfortunate that there's
Speaker 2: not more places like Rainbow Lodge.
Speaker 1: I one hundred percent agree. And you've got the force
Speaker 1: of nature in Claude keeps everyone in the right direction.
Speaker 1: But little things like having a meal together. And I
Speaker 1: suppose people could look from the outside and go, well,
Speaker 1: what's that about? But that's learning to communicate, learning to socialize,
Speaker 1: So you're not seeing in your room just getting angry
Speaker 1: and confused by true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so much a prison you eat by yourself
Speaker 2: because you're locked in and they deliver the meals to
Speaker 2: the room and you eat by yourself a lot of
Speaker 2: the time, or maybe with one other person. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: a time for the guys to talk to get together
Speaker 2: and talk to the support worker whoever's working that night.
Speaker 2: And when I was talking about that kind of wrap
Speaker 2: around services, and that's something Rainbow definitely provides because you know,
Speaker 2: there's psychological services.
Speaker 1: There, get access.
Speaker 2: All the residents will say psychle once a week while
Speaker 2: they're there. There's support with all those things like the
Speaker 2: banking and all that kind of stuff I've just talked about.
Speaker 2: For the indigenous guys, there's a lot of cultural activities
Speaker 2: and connecting with elders and spending time on country and
Speaker 2: people there to model like you know, good behavior and
Speaker 2: model behavior of men as well, you know, And this
Speaker 2: is stuff a lot of the guys and never had
Speaker 2: an opportunity to do. And it works like it actually works.
Speaker 2: And I was so blessed to go there. I can't
Speaker 2: I can't imagine what my life would have been like
Speaker 2: if I didn't have the opportunity, but I can imagine
Speaker 2: I would have gone back in.
Speaker 1: And so you spent three months here and where did
Speaker 1: you go from there?
Speaker 2: What happened fortunately for me, and a lot of the time,
Speaker 2: the goal is to try and find the men either
Speaker 2: semi permanent or permanent accommodation, but some kind of stable
Speaker 2: accommodation once they leave. That's not always possible, but that
Speaker 2: is the goal. Yeah, And I was fortunate enough to
Speaker 2: get government housing. So I got government housing in Red Perone,
Speaker 2: which is where I was kind of living before I
Speaker 2: went in a lot of the time anyway. And yeah,
Speaker 2: so after about three and a half months, I moved
Speaker 2: into a government housing place in Redferne and Rainbow Lodge
Speaker 2: to help furnish it. You know that they do some
Speaker 2: work with another or Relove and some other places that
Speaker 2: help with furnishing, and they did that, which you know,
Speaker 2: I was really really thankful for. And yeah, I was
Speaker 2: able to for the first time in six years, have
Speaker 2: a place that I could say was my own and
Speaker 2: was a safe place to be and start thinking about
Speaker 2: what next.
Speaker 1: And to me, it seems like a more real environment
Speaker 1: than your little o mirror's drug dealing empire. Absolutely, and
Speaker 1: you've got people that are genuinely there to help you,
Speaker 1: absolutely have any benefit to themselves.
Speaker 2: That's right. It was not transactional.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that must from the childhood you've come from,
Speaker 1: where the neglect that you suffer, and it must have
Speaker 1: been something completely foreign.
Speaker 2: To absolutely and something else Rainbow Lodge does which a
Speaker 2: lot of other rehabs and other places don't do, which
Speaker 2: is the ongoing outreach support afterwards up to two years.
Speaker 1: Then what form does that come in?
Speaker 2: So that means that the men still have access to
Speaker 2: Rainbow Lodge as a service and caseworkers. They can come
Speaker 2: and have dinner if they want, just drop in and
Speaker 2: have dinner, and it's a place to touch base. If
Speaker 2: they need help with some medical issue or some other
Speaker 2: administration or something like that that they're having difficulty with,
Speaker 2: the caseworker can still help them. So all the guys
Speaker 2: that leave and go through the program, they'll have a
Speaker 2: caseworker who becomes their outreach work. And for me, that
Speaker 2: meant afterwards, I was there was somewhere I could touch
Speaker 2: base and somewhere I could reach out if I needed
Speaker 2: needed help, you know, Okay, and I did need that
Speaker 2: a couple of times.
Speaker 1: The times where you're losing your way.
Speaker 2: No, I wasn't losing my way, but I had some
Speaker 2: medical things that had been unaddressed when I was in jail,
Speaker 2: and you know, one of the things was I needed
Speaker 2: to be picked up afterwards because I was going under
Speaker 2: general anesthetic.
Speaker 1: Oh right, as simple as that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, well what am I going to do?
Speaker 2: I can't just call it uber, yeah, you know. And
Speaker 2: Claude came and picked me up after the after the operation,
Speaker 2: and they helped pay for it as well, so because
Speaker 2: I was living on Centering at the time and couldn't
Speaker 2: afford that. So yeah, there are I remember sending a
Speaker 2: message one time, it was about six months after and
Speaker 2: saying thank you and just that they fulfill like in
Speaker 2: a way like a surrogate family. I guess they fulfill
Speaker 2: that role, you know. And it doesn't mean to get
Speaker 2: hugs off everything.
Speaker 1: But I don't think there's a kind of support, you know,
Speaker 1: shame insane because it's almost like the family you've been looking.
Speaker 2: For, that's right. They're reliable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and that's why the family should provide and
Speaker 1: that's something that you didn't have absolutely when you're growing up.
Speaker 1: How long has it been running for the brain bad Lodge.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that's a long time. I think it
Speaker 2: goes back into the sixties.
Speaker 1: It's been running for a long time, clearly, and I
Speaker 1: see it the functions that I've attended a few times
Speaker 1: with the heavy hitters there, the politicians, judges and all
Speaker 1: sorts of people supporting it.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of good will towards Rainbow Lodge.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so it must have the runs on the
Speaker 1: board been successful. A funny thing that works. Why it
Speaker 1: can't be on the larger scale, But.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I was looking at something the other day.
Speaker 2: It's a bit of a grape of mind that just
Speaker 2: seeing where money is spent in other places, you know,
Speaker 2: and people think that government's always talking about government money
Speaker 2: being spent, taxpayer money being spent. Right, it's not government,
Speaker 2: but it's taxpayer monet. And I think as taxpayers we
Speaker 2: have the right for a safer community, right, and for
Speaker 2: them to do what they can do to give us
Speaker 2: a safe community and do the best job they can do.
Speaker 2: And I always hear them banging on about the science,
Speaker 2: you know, when it comes to the climate, it's always like,
Speaker 2: listen to the science. Listen to the science, right, and okay,
Speaker 2: we'll buy into that. We'll listen to the science.
Speaker 1: That's a reasonable way to push a point.
Speaker 2: But what about the science of recivitism and incarceration. All
Speaker 2: the stats, government stats tell you it doesn't work, So
Speaker 2: why not listen to the science there? And for me,
Speaker 2: when you look at the stats of somewhere like Rainbow
Speaker 2: or places like rehabilitation services, which are also desperately needed
Speaker 2: because I think drugs is such a big driver of crime.
Speaker 2: You know, so these are the things we need if
Speaker 2: you really want to make safer communities and prevent crime,
Speaker 2: that these are the things that need to be funded.
Speaker 2: And it's not a left or right thing, it's a
Speaker 2: do you want a safer community that?
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's that scenarrative, and that gets lost
Speaker 1: in the telling because people go, we're getting soft. Who
Speaker 1: cares what happens to them when they release from prison?
Speaker 1: You care when it's your class, well stupid if they
Speaker 1: fall back in the crime, which all care. I see
Speaker 1: even around Glube where it is the neighbors support the
Speaker 1: which is a big That says a lot. You're having
Speaker 1: all these X cons come here, but we don't want
Speaker 1: them in this neighborhood. They're supportive it, so that that
Speaker 1: says it says a great.
Speaker 2: Deal on that. Yeah, I remember Claude talking about one
Speaker 2: time an older and older lady down the road coming
Speaker 2: and dropping lemons off these guys. Yeah, there's a cafe
Speaker 2: up the road that puts to breakfast on once a week. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's really it's amazing.
Speaker 1: And little things like that. How important is that to
Speaker 1: someone like yourself that haven't seen that, that sort of gratitude.
Speaker 2: And it's it's evidence that the people around you and
Speaker 2: other people that there's good people out there. And because
Speaker 2: when you're operating in the world of crime and in prison,
Speaker 2: it's very easy to think that everyone is out to
Speaker 2: get something from you, and that you can't trust people,
Speaker 2: and that that people are inherently not good. And when
Speaker 2: you come out and you start you know, if that's
Speaker 2: you know, for me it was working and studying and
Speaker 2: that kind of thing, or if it's when you look
Speaker 2: at the community around you and see how like accepting
Speaker 2: they are and you start realizing that there is another
Speaker 2: way of living and that there's another way of being,
Speaker 2: you know, and even that the way that the community
Speaker 2: responds to Rainbow Lodge is it indication that there is
Speaker 2: another way and that people I think are inherently good.
Speaker 1: Education. You started studying what are you doing? And how
Speaker 1: did how did that come about?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I wanted to study my whole life, attempted
Speaker 2: a number of times, fail dozens of times that at
Speaker 2: least time.
Speaker 1: Too hard you to felt like you were too far behind.
Speaker 2: Exactly like a start tape. I don't know how many
Speaker 2: tape course I started and dropped out of, you know,
Speaker 2: and something would come up, whether it was my mental
Speaker 2: health or some kind of barrier, or I would just
Speaker 2: get bored really quickly and I just couldn't stick it out.
Speaker 2: And there was so much evidence that I couldn't stick
Speaker 2: it out. It was soul crushing. But coming out of
Speaker 2: out of prison and at Rainbow and having this period
Speaker 2: of abstinence, you know, I really felt like I had
Speaker 2: a good crack at it at this time and could
Speaker 2: do it and just really single minded about about completing something.
Speaker 2: And I had also decided I wanted to work in
Speaker 2: the community service industry and give something back, especially after
Speaker 2: that time in Rainbow. That really solidified for me that
Speaker 2: this is the industry I wanted to work in, and
Speaker 2: that my history might actually be a benefit to people
Speaker 2: that I'm working with. Definitely, and so I thought, this
Speaker 2: is what I can do, you know, and turn what's
Speaker 2: been a pretty tragic life into something positive. So tragic
Speaker 2: up until then, you know. And yeah, so I did
Speaker 2: community services at TATHE, which was such a fantastic experience
Speaker 2: for someone coming out of prison to get to spend
Speaker 2: time around people that I normally wouldn't get to spend
Speaker 2: time around, a lot of international students, other people that
Speaker 2: you know, really wanted to give back to community. And yeah,
Speaker 2: it was just a really really good experience and it
Speaker 2: really helped me open up.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm not seeing here laughing at you. I'm
Speaker 1: laughing laughing with you in the fact that you're seeing
Speaker 1: there are good people out out in the world. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: it's taken you to your absolutely late thirties where you're
Speaker 1: you're seeing seeing good people in the world. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: I would imagine studying, getting qualifications, passing stuff, must get
Speaker 1: raise yourself absolutely self.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So it was like once I did that,
Speaker 2: it's like what next.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So.
Speaker 2: I'd really eventually like to be a psychologist and doing
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. So that's kind of where I'm aiming.
Speaker 2: I did a counseling diploma after the community services and
Speaker 2: now I'm at your need studying while while I'm working.
Speaker 1: So if you're studying something you enjoy, it doesn't It's true,
Speaker 1: that's what I like, something you're interested in it. That's
Speaker 1: not hard work, That's true. When can I get back
Speaker 1: into it?
Speaker 2: Rainbow has been really supportive of that as well. You
Speaker 2: know that when I was at Tape when my computer died,
Speaker 2: you know, and Claude helped me get a computer, and
Speaker 2: I just owe them so much. You know, they really
Speaker 2: have helped me a lot.
Speaker 1: It keeps telling me he's a good person, but.
Speaker 2: You can't tell when you talk to me.
Speaker 1: I think we're going to have to acknowledge cool, these
Speaker 1: are good No. The first time I saw him was
Speaker 1: at Government House and there was Supreme Court judges there,
Speaker 1: the head of the Dpper, a whole whole range of people.
Speaker 1: I'd been invited. This is after I just left the
Speaker 1: police and I'm a little bit lost and wandering around
Speaker 1: the Government House and I see someone. I think, I
Speaker 1: think you and I got something in common that we
Speaker 1: could we could talk about. And that's where I met him.
Speaker 1: Next time I saw him speaking at Parliament House. Invited
Speaker 1: to another event there at State Parliament. But yeah, he's
Speaker 1: he's a power sources. What the work wise, what are
Speaker 1: you doing?
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm actually working at Rainbow Lots.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was it was a goal of mine
Speaker 2: when I was there. Yeah, you know, and like a
Speaker 2: quiet goal of mine that yeah, which was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I want to work here one day and yeah. And
Speaker 2: initially I was working as an offsider on a garbage truck,
Speaker 2: you know, something else Cord helped me with to find
Speaker 2: that work, you know, through another organization at the time.
Speaker 2: And yeah, so started off there and I was able
Speaker 2: to do that, which helped me study part time. It
Speaker 2: was just a bit of part time work and yeah,
Speaker 2: and then a position became available at Rainbow and by
Speaker 2: then I'd already done my diploma and done this so forth.
Speaker 2: So I think he felt like, you know, the had
Speaker 2: the academic and the lived experience, you know, and I thought,
Speaker 2: you know, he'd give me the opportunity to have a
Speaker 2: go of it and see how I'd go. And it
Speaker 2: wasn't easy at first.
Speaker 1: No, I would imagine that it's confronting. Can you tell
Speaker 1: us about the examples of we've got the sense of
Speaker 1: what it did for you without without identifying the person
Speaker 1: someone that has come there that Rainbow has helped that
Speaker 1: you thought surprised because I'm sure you would still have
Speaker 1: your jail sense about you. Okay, what's this person carrying?
Speaker 1: There's a hyper alertness to problems. Did you have someone
Speaker 1: come there? You think we're not going to we're not
Speaker 1: going to win this bloke over, but someone that really
Speaker 1: turns to the ram.
Speaker 2: It happens more often than you think. It's really hard
Speaker 2: to pick who will make it through the program. And
Speaker 2: it's also it's something that you know, I've talked about
Speaker 2: and I'm sure the other people at work and we
Speaker 2: talk about sometimes actually what is success and what is
Speaker 2: a successful time at a place like Rainbow or any
Speaker 2: other rehab another rehab or something not that Rainbow's a rehabit,
Speaker 2: any other kind of service like that. How do you
Speaker 2: gauge success? And it's different for different people, you know,
Speaker 2: for some people, you know, I've had guys tell me
Speaker 2: that going through the program, it's the first time they've
Speaker 2: gone through parole without breaching parole, you know, and for
Speaker 2: them that's a massive success. And you know, I really
Speaker 2: acknowledge that and applaud that because for some guys that's
Speaker 2: the first time in twenty years or thirty years they've
Speaker 2: made it through parole, you know, so that that's an achievement,
Speaker 2: you know, And for other people that's I mean more
Speaker 2: it's it's finding work, and it's living by themselves and
Speaker 2: having like healthy relationships and and you know, doing that
Speaker 2: kind of thing for other people is just staying out
Speaker 2: of prison, you know, And even if that means not working,
Speaker 2: maybe they're not able to work yet and maybe that's
Speaker 2: not a goal, but maybe staying out of prison their goal.
Speaker 2: And having having a relationship with family, you know that
Speaker 2: they haven't been able to have before because of prison
Speaker 2: and drugs and crime. And yeah, so there's in terms
Speaker 2: of people that have surprised me, there's definitely been a few,
Speaker 2: you know. You know, there was one guy who I'm
Speaker 2: not going to say names. You know, he came through
Speaker 2: one time and within a couple of weeks and I'd
Speaker 2: just started, you know, and he'd overdosed and it was
Speaker 2: it was pretty intense and I just started. It was
Speaker 2: pretty confronting for me as well, you know, and yeah,
Speaker 2: he had to leave afterwards because you can't he's not
Speaker 2: allowed to stay with that kind of thing. You know.
Speaker 2: He really really did reach it because he had drugs
Speaker 2: on him and this kind of stuff as well. Any
Speaker 2: other if it wasn't rehab or any other place, there's
Speaker 2: no chance he would have been able to come back, right,
Speaker 2: They wouldn't let him come back, you know. And where
Speaker 2: was this fellow, you know, six months later or a
Speaker 2: year later, maybe maybe he's asked if he can come
Speaker 2: back again, and Claude said, I'll give you another go,
Speaker 2: you know. And when Claude said it, I was thinking,
Speaker 2: there's no chance because my last recollection of this guy,
Speaker 2: what he was like, there was no chance he was
Speaker 2: going to go do it. You know, he wasn't going
Speaker 2: to go well. He even said some things to me
Speaker 2: at the time. You know, I just thought there was
Speaker 2: no chance he's going to do it well, you know.
Speaker 2: And yeah, he did really well, you know, and he
Speaker 2: completed the program, didn't use drugs again, you know, got
Speaker 2: really healthy. It's really good to see. It's beautiful to see.
Speaker 2: And just hope the very best for him moving forward
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 1: That well, yeah, of one life saved or pointed in
Speaker 1: the right direction, and the impact that that can have.
Speaker 1: My observation of it, all the sense I get of
Speaker 1: it too, you'd be calling each other on bullshit too,
Speaker 1: Like when you're having having the meals, and it wouldn't
Speaker 1: be a tough guy jail conversation. You'd be talking about emotions,
Speaker 1: talking about relationship. True, And I think that's so healthy
Speaker 1: for a group of that. It's better than them going
Speaker 1: down the pub hooking up with their old crew and
Speaker 1: prison was a piece of piece blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: True.
Speaker 1: You'd be blokes there that I would imagine there'd be
Speaker 1: some interesting and very honest and emotional conversations around the
Speaker 1: mill table.
Speaker 2: And that's another thing that happened at Rainbow. One of
Speaker 2: the other support workers does the role I do, also
Speaker 2: runs to men's group, and that's a really like, yeah,
Speaker 2: a time where the guys sit down and they're really
Speaker 2: open and talk about, you know, their feelings and things
Speaker 2: that are going on for them, and really open up
Speaker 2: and in a way that they probably haven't some of
Speaker 2: them maybe ever.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I know Claude talks about it and I can't remember
Speaker 2: the exact terminology, but it's like we'll try and provide
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of services, Like there's music therapy, there's
Speaker 2: art therapy, as psychologists, there's day trips, there's dinner. There's
Speaker 2: there's the time spent with like incidental counseling. There's like
Speaker 2: the time spent as a group. There's the behavior management.
Speaker 2: There's all this different stuff going on, and it's like
Speaker 2: if some of it gels, you know, you can't expect
Speaker 2: all of it to gel with everyone. But there's the
Speaker 2: gym as well. You know, there's there's all these different
Speaker 2: things and you just hope that some of it will gel.
Speaker 2: And even if a couple of those things kind of
Speaker 2: make an impact, they can they can really help help
Speaker 2: change the difference.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I hope it, hope it continues. On your submission,
Speaker 1: How did it come about that you did the submission
Speaker 1: for the parliamentary inquiry.
Speaker 2: Yes, so I was approached by someone from the Raise
Speaker 2: the Age campaign. Yeah yeah, and yeah, she might't mind
Speaker 2: me saying her name, but Emily approached me from RAS
Speaker 2: Raise the Age, and yeah, we she just said, you know,
Speaker 2: would you like to come and be part of this.
Speaker 2: You know, she'd heard a little bit about my story
Speaker 2: as well, and we went through and talked a little
Speaker 2: bit kind of like what you and I have done today,
Speaker 2: and you know, we realized that my story is an
Speaker 2: example of what can go wrong, you know, when when
Speaker 2: a young person isn't given the support they needed, and
Speaker 2: it also highlights what can be done done right. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so yeah, a lot of that was done through race age.
Speaker 2: And then Emily said, you know, but I like to
Speaker 2: make a submission and I said absolutely, and it just
Speaker 2: went from there.
Speaker 1: Powerful stuff and hopefully with the submissions, not just yours,
Speaker 1: with all the other ones in there, but some some
Speaker 1: good will will comes out of it and some some understanding.
Speaker 1: Because getting back on the youth crime situation, I've been
Speaker 1: sitting in people often asks, yeah, I'll have mates that'll
Speaker 1: be saying, well, you know, they should lock them up.
Speaker 1: And it's not that if we locked up everyone you
Speaker 1: think should be locked up, there'd be no one out.
Speaker 1: We're locking everyone. But yeah, all the and the narrative
Speaker 1: that plays out in the media. But it's much deeper,
Speaker 1: isn't it. That We've talked in the second part about
Speaker 1: Rainbow Lodge, and that's from the adult point of view,
Speaker 1: but it all goes back to what happens as a child.
Speaker 1: Don't say you found yourself in Rainbow the Lodge. To
Speaker 1: start with, what happened happened as a child.
Speaker 2: And that's the I think that's the thing that is
Speaker 2: really highlighted by my story, which is that if the
Speaker 2: support that that I've been given at Rainbow happened when
Speaker 2: I was eighteen or seventeen or any other time, you know,
Speaker 2: but especially as a young person, all this could have
Speaker 2: been prevented.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2: And I think about the the literally millions of dollars
Speaker 2: of taxpayer money that's been spent on me. I didn't
Speaker 2: pay tax for thirty something years. I mean, I literally
Speaker 2: gave nothing back. All I did was like cause harmed
Speaker 2: in the community around me, or the only tax I
Speaker 2: paid was through stuff I was buying.
Speaker 1: Well, again, if it comes comes down to an argument,
Speaker 1: if we're not saying, well, it's the right thing to do,
Speaker 1: because it's the right.
Speaker 2: Just playing look look at the fine exactly. And I'm
Speaker 2: happy to think about it that way. And I think
Speaker 2: that's fair enough to look at it that way. Everyone
Speaker 2: doesn't have to care about everyone else if they don't
Speaker 2: want to. But if you want a safer community and
Speaker 2: you don't want your taxpayers dollars wasted, there's another way
Speaker 2: to do.
Speaker 1: And I think it would be fair to say, and
Speaker 1: I look at it. I haven't been in the system,
Speaker 1: but I've seen the results of the system. You get
Speaker 1: tough on the kids a crime without some sort of
Speaker 1: intervention or redirecting them, you're just going to build tougher, harder,
Speaker 1: are going to come out and inflict it.
Speaker 2: And whose faults that?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I mean is that? Can you
Speaker 2: really blame that child or even that adult when they
Speaker 2: do that? Because we know we know what works, we
Speaker 2: know what doesn't work. The government knows what works and
Speaker 2: what doesn't work. They've got the evidence. People have been
Speaker 2: screaming it for years. Like you could do a quick
Speaker 2: Google search on anything and say, you know, stats on crime,
Speaker 2: stats on reciptism doesn't work. Yeah, it's just you don't
Speaker 2: have to be left or right the answer.
Speaker 1: And once you know we've got that media pushing the
Speaker 1: aspect of youth, try on youth crime. Yeah, well that's right.
Speaker 1: We're seeing the media building now. But that that is
Speaker 1: the reality of it, And I think, yeah, we could
Speaker 1: use the media in a positive way and say, okay,
Speaker 1: let's look at the alternatives, let's look at how we
Speaker 1: can how we can change it.
Speaker 2: I guess that's part of what you're highlighting now.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm trying to like I when I finish the police,
Speaker 1: I still wanted to fight. But what I've realized since
Speaker 1: I've got out of the police, there's other ways of
Speaker 1: fighting crime, and people like yourself and Claude and a
Speaker 1: whole range of people, there's definitely different ways, and if
Speaker 1: we fall onto a more of an Eastern philosophy of
Speaker 1: prevention is better than cure. I think start at the
Speaker 1: kids when they talk about putting money into policing. We
Speaker 1: need police and anyone that says we don't regret as naive,
Speaker 1: but pour it into education too. Like education, like you
Speaker 1: move around the fifteen different schools. Maybe if more money
Speaker 1: was in education, they could have identified, hey, there's a
Speaker 1: problem going on with absolutely what can we do and
Speaker 1: the benefits of end education. Good teachers, role models and
Speaker 1: mental teachers.
Speaker 2: I think they can play a really big part two.
Speaker 2: And I think there's been a lot of evidence for
Speaker 2: that of you know, people we lived experience being mentalised.
Speaker 1: I keep pushing that and it saddens me. I see
Speaker 1: too many times people that I can see men and
Speaker 1: women that have turned their life around. I think they've
Speaker 1: got such a valuable message they could pass on, but
Speaker 1: they hit the hurdles of oh, we can't can't engage
Speaker 1: you because of what you've done well the very reason
Speaker 1: because you've done that why they need. Normally, at the
Speaker 1: end of a podcast, I thank you, which I will do,
Speaker 1: I thank you and say that you've left an impression,
Speaker 1: which you have. But I want you to be the
Speaker 1: last voice and that if it's okay, and I'm putting
Speaker 1: you on the spot here, I want you to read
Speaker 1: out these are the final four paragraphs of the submission
Speaker 1: you made, and I just want people to listen to
Speaker 1: that and sit on that, because I don't think there's
Speaker 1: anything I can say that carries more way to that.
Speaker 2: Imagine if children like me were given this opportunity earlier.
Speaker 2: I think my life could have been very different if
Speaker 2: I wasn't punished for my disadvantage and the abuse I
Speaker 2: enjoyed as a child. Locking kids up doesn't work. It
Speaker 2: didn't work for me or for thousands of children who
Speaker 2: have been locked up after me. What we do to
Speaker 2: children shapes their future, and children grow up, we should
Speaker 2: remember they are part of our communities. We need a
Speaker 2: better way where kids get the support they need to
Speaker 2: have a sense of belonging, learn to be accountable and
Speaker 2: get the opportunities and thrive. Thanks, good on mate, Now,
Speaker 2: thank you, thank you, I really appreciating it.
Speaker 1: All the best for the future and say in touch
Speaker 2: Yeah fantastic, Thank you Jeeves.