WEBVTT - Read This: John Rebus Will Outlive Ian Rankin 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:02.639 Hi there, It's Daniel James and I'm back to share 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:06.760 another episode of Read This Schwartz Meetia's weekly books podcast. 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:11.160 Hosted by editor of the Monthly Michael Williams. It features 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:14.120 conversations with some of the most talented writers from Australia 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:17.360 and around the world. This week, Michael is chatting with 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:22.160 best selling crime writer Ian Rankin. As always, Michael is 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:24.440 here to tell us a little bit more about the episode. 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:26.599 Hi Michael, Daniel James. 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.600 Hello, So Michael, today's guest is one of the most 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.360 well regarded crime fiction writers in the world, and you 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:35.360 were lucky enough to chat with him at the Sydney 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:36.199 Writers Festival. 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:37.600 Before we talk. 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:39.720 About Ian Rankin, can you share a little bit about 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:42.600 when your love for a good crime novel began. 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:46.520 Yeah, I've always been a crime fiction tragic. I think 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:48.920 when I was a teenager and us first learning to read, 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:52.240 I was reading kind of classics that were foisted upon 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:55.920 me and ran out of age appropriate stuff pretty quickly, 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.640 and then got onto Agatha Christie or the Sherlock Holmes 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:03.680 books and found myself completely hooked. So those earliest ones 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:06.600 were definitely in that puzzle box tradition. The mystery that 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:08.760 is resolved at the end and you get the twist 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:10.840 or you get the reveal. And that was a lot 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:13.000 of fun. But the more I read, the more the 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:16.480 capaciousness of the crime novel struck me. So that it 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:19.840 could be like an English country town cozy, or it 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.360 could be a hard boiled el a noir, and the 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:25.320 contrast between them. You know, you could go Raymond Chandler 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.120 on the one hand, or you could go PD James 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.280 or Ruth Rendell on the other, and so that mix 0:01:31.720 --> 0:01:33.920 really appeal. The other thing that was great is if 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:36.280 you found a crime writer you liked, there was generally 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:38.480 a reasonable chance that there was a dozen books in 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:41.000 their backlist and a kind of new book each year 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:43.440 by them that could keep you going. So for a 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.119 voracious reader, it was this wonderful promise that not only 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:49.000 was it a world that you liked, but it was 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:51.760 one that you could return to again and again and again. 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:54.720 And amongst those there were a couple in particular that 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:58.720 really grabbed me. One was a British writer called Reginald 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:01.920 Hill who wrote these procedurals set in Yorkshire that were 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:04.520 really great. But the other one that I really loved 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:06.440 was Ian Rankin. 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.680 And Rekon has become a household name now, isn't he. 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.560 I mean, I believe he's especially well known for his 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:15.720 character Detective John Reebis, who features him more than twenty 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:18.520 of his novels. What happens in this latest one? 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:20.959 Yeah. One of the things Rankin often reflects on was 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:23.959 that it took him seven books to become an overnight success. 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:26.480 You know, once your series is in the kind of 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:29.800 twenty odd book territory, you know that it's just going 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:31.760 and going and going. There was a point at which 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.560 I'm going to get this slightly wrong, but there's a 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:36.440 point of which I think eight of the ten books 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.400 on the bestseller list in the Scottish Times were by 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:43.760 arn Rankin, and I think it was like something insane 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:46.240 like ten percent of all crime fiction being sold in 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.400 the UK was by him. You know, he's a phenomenon. 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.560 He sold forty million books to date, He's been translated 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.880 into thirty seven languages. He's got a knighthood. He's Ian 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.160 Rankin now, and this newest book is the twenty fifth 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:02.360 in the series. Well, Midnight in Blue and John ReBs, 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:04.480 at the end of the last book was arrested. He's 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:07.080 in jail and he's been called on to assist in 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:11.119 solving the ultimate crime novel scenario, the Locked Room Mystery. 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.640 It's pretty great and it's just very nice to know 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:18.400 that John Reavers is not done yet. And just quickly 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:22.000 before we get to Sir ar Ragan and John Reebs 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:25.040 and all things crime and wonder, I did want to say, 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:27.360 Daniel to anyone who's enjoyed listening to read this in 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:30.680 their seven am feed, We're coming to an end. It's 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.760 tumultuous times, but I read this will no longer be 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.960 happening with Schwartz Media. There is a chance it will return, 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:39.240 and so I would encourage you, if you'd enjoyed listening 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.960 to it in seven Am, subscribe to the read this 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:45.160 feed separately. That's where you'll find that if it's going 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:47.720 to come back to life in the weeks and months ahead. 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:53.520 Coming up in just a moment, John Reebis will outlive 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:54.480 in Raken. 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:01.880 I was lucky enough to sit down with Rankin Sorry 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:05.800 sir Ian at this year's Sydney Writer's Festival just a 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.920 couple of weeks ago. I have to say I came 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:12.760 to Midnight and Blue and my first thought was that 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:15.760 the title immediately evoked for me the eighth book in 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:18.560 the Rebis series, Black and Blue. An extraordinary book, but 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:22.280 a book where Rebus was laid as low, really as 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.039 you'd cast him at any point, and it was the 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.719 first in a sequence in several books where every time 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:29.640 you thought he couldn't go lower, you really did give 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.960 him another kicking. So, knowing that he was in prison 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:35.599 in Midnight and Blue, seeing this residence in the title, 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:39.080 I assumed to find a broken man, and instead Rebus 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:41.240 is almost as jaunty as we've seen him for years. 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.440 The man's enjoying prison? Is he in? 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:47.719 I don't know if he's enjoying prison. I think the structure. 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.520 He likes his life to have a structure. And when 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.000 he had to leave the police force because he was 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.000 of an age where he had to go, suddenly his 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.080 life hud no structure, and he still felt he ought 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.200 to be useful. Did he still have a purpose in 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:02.000 the world? Could he still be useful in prison? He 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:04.440 has a purpose. His purpose is to avoid being murdered 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:08.520 by the many bad men in there who don't like 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:10.440 the fact that a cop is in jail with them. 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.080 And then he's given another purpose, which is there is 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:16.279 a lot to sell mystery. Someone has been killed in 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.320 a cell, and he is best placed to solve this 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:23.360 before the prison explodes, because the cons all think it 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.279 must be a warder. Warder, I'll think it must be 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:30.119 a con. So they're getting ready to clash and into 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.320 this kind of powder keg you throw Rabus, so suddenly 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:35.840 he's up in fun while also watching his front on 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:38.520 his back for people about to stab him or throttle 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:40.520 him or kill him. And it was the one thing 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.479 that you know, I do a lot of research. I 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:45.360 don't do a lot of research. I do enough research 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:47.080 that I can persuade the reader. I do a lot 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.440 of research. But a friend of mine's a photographer. He 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:54.640 knew the governor in Edinburgh Prison, who thankfully, as it 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.039 turns out, was about to retire, so he was much 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.839 more open and receptive to my questions and might otherwise 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.440 be the case. And he took me around the prison 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:04.080 and showed me and everything else. But the first thing 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:07.320 he said was Rebus wouldn't come here. There's no way 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:09.320 you would take an ex Edinburgh cop and put him 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:11.880 in the Edinburgh prison because he would be surrounded by 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:15.599 people he would know who would want ill done to him. 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:17.520 So I said, well, I don't want him to be 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.600 anywhere else. He's got to come here. So we discussed 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:22.719 that for a while and we found a way. He said, 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.359 well he would come into the Kindese segregation wing, and 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:27.120 I went, okay, that's good. And then I found a 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:29.200 way to get him from the segregation went into the 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.760 general population, and I was happy. And when the governor 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:35.159 eventually read the book, it was a couple of tiny 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:37.799 things he thought I'd got wrong, But there was nothing 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:39.159 major that you thought I'd got wrong. 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:42.520 You did set yourself in this book, and it's the 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:45.559 nature of crime in a prison, but you set yourself 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.640 the crime writer's greatest challenge, which is the locker room mystery. 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.680 Not only do you have this kind of pressure cooker environment, 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:54.840 but you actually have somewhat unusually for one of your 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:57.760 Rabis books, a puzzle box element to it as well. 0:06:57.880 --> 0:06:59.600 Was a fun putting that together. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.839 Okay, first thing that happened was the previous book, Heartfully Headstones, 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.000 I thought was the last book. Now I've thought this before, 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.120 but I thought this is a last book. He's on trial, 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.920 he's in the dock, sentences about to be pronounced the end. 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:19.320 It's a lovely riking back falls moment. And of course 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.680 I will only ever be the second best crime writer 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:26.280 to come out of Edinburgh because Conan Doyle was born 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:28.880 and brought up in Edinburgh. So I thought it's a 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.280 lovely thing to end the Rebis series with a raking 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:34.920 back falls. But then people start to say, well, what 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:38.560 happened next? And I started to think, what would happen next? 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.480 He would be found guilty. If he's found guilty, he's 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:45.400 going to go to prison. That's interesting that immediately you've 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.560 got tension and drama, and it's a new setting. It's 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:51.120 a new challenge for me. It's a new setting for 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:53.680 Reebis and a new set of challenges for me. This guy, 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:57.000 who's in his seventies with health issues is going to 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:00.000 go to an alien environment, and in that alien environment, 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.760 I can have a discussion with him about good and evil, 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:07.920 because Reebis in the earlier books especially thought they were 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:10.520 just these polarized things that were good and evil. If 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.880 you were a bad person, you were irredeemably a bad person. 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.360 In jail, some of the prisoners say to him, what 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:20.280 do you think you're here now? Are we really the 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:23.080 monsters you thought we were when you put us in here. 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:25.240 So that was great to be able to have that 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.560 discussion with him and possibly change his mind. So all 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:30.960 that was going on, and then I thought, well, what's 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.640 he going to do in prison? He's going to have 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:37.320 to solve a murder. And then because people are locked 0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:39.720 up for large parts of the day, I thought, Okay, 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:44.240 I'm murdering a lot sell. How is it possible? I 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.600 have no idea who did it? I don't know, but 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:50.280 let's start and see. So when I started the book, 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:52.800 I had no idea how this would happen. I had 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.480 a vague idea because I've been given a tour of 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.560 the cells, so I knew certain things about the layout 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:00.640 of the cells and how certain things it happened. 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:03.120 Can I ask, just on the topic of not knowing 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:05.760 when you started, is it true that when you were 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.160 was it Hanging Garden, you finished your first draft and 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:10.760 you still hadn't worked out who the killer was? 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:14.079 Yeah? I mean this is often roughly the case. I'll 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:17.199 be typing away and I'll put a nice, big capitalized 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:22.360 note to myself, fix this letter, you know, And towards 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:24.400 the end of the first draft of the Hanging Garden. 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:27.200 I still didn't know who the killer was. And then 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:29.720 I read the first draft. I sat and read it 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.839 through and went, oh, hang on a minute, it must 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:36.079 be you. So it was really this the beginning of 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:37.400 the it was the second draft. 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.800 I'm fascinated by that. I'm in a book like The 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:45.160 Hanging Garden where the themes and the crime are so 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.959 deeply embedded in each other. You know, the ideas as 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:50.640 you say that question about good and evil that permeates 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:54.840 the series, those kind of binaries of the different sides 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:58.160 of not just Rabist, but of all the characters in 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:01.360 the crime. It seems remarkable to me that it's almost 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:05.000 incidental who's responsible for the inciding incident. 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.319 I don't think it's incidental. I think you've got a 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.800 range of possible suspects and motives, and I wait for 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:13.760 the book to tell me which one is most relevant 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:15.840 or is going to be most surprising to the reader 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:20.360 while still being credible. Yeah, I do trust to that. 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.439 It's almost like the story is up there, swirling around, 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:27.320 and it descends and decides I'm the person to write 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.800 this story down and tell this story, and it will 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.480 tell me where to go. And almost always if I've 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.600 got a fixed idea of where a book should go, 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:40.560 the novel says differently. The novel says no, no, no. 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:42.480 There was a what was let me think what was it? 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:46.160 It was set in darkness, was going to be the 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:48.760 first book of a trilogy within the series, and it 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:52.160 would look at the formation of the Scottish Parliament. So 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:54.520 in book one there would be a guy who is 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:56.960 running to be a member of Parliament in the new 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.000 Scottish Parliament. In book two, the parliament is up and running. 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.000 In book three the new building is complete and everything 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:05.440 in there. So this character would be in all three books. 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:09.839 He was dead by page fifty, and I didn't want 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:12.000 that to happen. This was going to be a trilogy 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:14.800 with this guy in it. But the book just said, 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:18.000 this guy is extraneous, you know. And so I went, well, 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:21.160 I've got yet another body, and I don't know who 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:24.120 did it, you know. So I'll wait and hope that 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:26.280 the book will tell me. And every time I've gone 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.360 along with the book's idea of what is going to 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:33.400 make a more interesting story or a meteor story, the 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:34.320 book has been correct. 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.640 Has that always been approached to writing, or is that 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:42.280 a trust in process that comes only with time and 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.840 success and saying that it works for you. 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:47.960 I mean, you know, I've tried teaching creative writing and 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:49.480 I don't think it can be done. I mean, I 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.160 think you can make a good writer better, but I 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:54.559 don't think you can turn someone into a writer. I 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:59.080 just I've always you know, I've always written, ever since 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.439 I was a little kid. I've written stories and made 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:05.520 stuff up for my own satisfaction and without thinking too 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.320 hard about the craft that comes later on. You know, 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:11.280 the second and third draft is when you try and 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:16.000 make elegant sentences, and you try and add some flesh 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:20.160 to the bones of the characters and solidify the theme 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.040 that you're trying to explore in the book. But the 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:27.920 first draft is a ragged beast, very much so, which 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:30.400 is why nobody sees it except me. And that's always 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:32.480 worked for me. That has always worked. I know other 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.000 writers do it. I mean what my near neighbor as 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:38.400 was in Edinburgh until I moved because I couldn't take 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:45.000 the competition. Alexander McCall smith only writes one draft. That's it. 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.080 It's not allowed to be edited, and it's you know, 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.600 and he writes quick as well, and yet somehow it works. 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:55.000 So everybody's different. But I found a way that worked 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.280 for me quite early on, and I've stuck to it. 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.240 I have to digress briefly. Your former neighbor alex Anna 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:02.760 McCall smith wrote you into one of his books, So 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:05.280 you're going to get revenge? Yeah, have him appeard. 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:09.800 He's actually written me into more than one. He's sitting 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.719 in my hot tub in Edinburgh when I used to 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:14.680 have a hot tub. He had me getting hit by 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:18.520 an arrow that was fired from some archers and the meadows. 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:20.680 He had my books appear in the wind of a 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:24.000 second hand bookshop. He's and every time he does it, 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:29.440 I see revenge. Sandy is a dish served very cold. 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.559 I look forward to that. I'm surprised in prison. 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.360 Nemesis is coming. Shit, I should have done that. 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.480 You mentioned the idea of the moment before this book 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:48.400 being one of many possible finishing points for Reebis and 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:51.400 the Rackenbach Falls idea, and one of the things that 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.520 made that seem possible at the end of the last 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:58.559 book was the death of Big jer Cafferty. And I'm 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:00.480 sorry that's a spoiler for anyone who hasn't read it, 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:03.120 but it's a book ago, it's time to catch up. 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.600 But you know, Cafferty was such a key figure since 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:10.480 he first appeared, I think in the fourth book in 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.600 the series, and had only grown in stature, only grown 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:17.720 as a kind of counterweight and almost close to Rebus's 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:21.680 kind of significant other by these later books. How hard 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:22.640 was it to let him go? 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:28.360 Yeah, you're correct. Cafferty first appears in book three as 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.960 a very minor character. I needed Rebis to be in 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.600 Glasgow to find a clue. Why was he in Glasgow? 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.600 He's giving evidence in a court case. Who's he giving 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:41.960 evidence against a Glasgow gangster? In book three, Cafferty is 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:44.920 a Glasgow gangster, and he kind of got under my 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.400 skin and I thought, oh, he's a useful can as 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.800 you say, a useful sort of almost like kenan Abel 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:55.080 or Jacqueline Hyde, or he's the devil tempting Reebis to 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:56.440 come to the dark side. 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.480 Nolan Laam, Yeah, Nolan layam. 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.440 It were which one is, which we'll discuss later on. 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:04.920 And so I brought him back after a few books, 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:07.400 but I'd forgotten he was a Glasgow gangster. So he 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:11.000 actually has two completely different life stories. In book three 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.040 he grew up in Glasgow. By book seven or eight 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.160 he grew up in Edinburgh and as an Edinburgh gangster. 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:18.240 This is how much research I do before I write 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:21.800 the books. But he was very useful to me. Is 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.640 that sort of devil whispering in Reebus's ear. And also 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.360 they're from very similar backgrounds. They understand each other very well. 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:30.800 Either one of them their life could have gone in 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:32.920 a different way that would have made them more like 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.320 the other. So all of that has going on with them, 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.880 and he represents all the bad stuff. Cafferty can represent 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.040 all the bad stuff that's happening in Edinburgh, in Scotland 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.920 and the world. But Reebus and he have this empathy. 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:48.880 They understand each other so well that you're never sure 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:50.760 if they're going to end up being best friends or 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:55.280 destroy each other throughout the series. And to answer your question, eventually, 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:58.800 when I handed the manuscript over to my agent of 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:04.680 Heartfully heads Owes, Cafferty survived, He didn't die, and it 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.240 was my agent who said, I think it's time. He said, 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.160 go back and look at that final scene. I think 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.640 he dies. And I went back and looked at it 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:17.360 and went it's a big deal. But okay, So for 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:19.280 the first time in my life, I took my agent's 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:23.960 advice and it was traumatic. And the nice thing about 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.080 putting Rebis in prison in this new book is we 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:28.240 don't have to dwell on the aftermath of it too much. 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.240 There's too much other stuff going on that Rebis isn't 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:35.320 sitting in his flat at dead of night thinking too 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:39.680 much about Cafferty. That is for possibly a future book. 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.400 Coming up after the Break and Chees, the genesis of 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:48.200 his lead Detective's nine, and why he never tires of 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:50.040 writing about Edinburgh. 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:51.280 We'll be right back. 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.400 Ian Rankin had never planned to become a crime writer. 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:07.960 Back in nineteen eighty seven. He was a young Muriel Sparks, 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.880 scholar of all things, and very earnestly trying to rewrite 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:14.720 Robert Louis Stevenson to have his own go a Doctor 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.920 Jekyl and Mister Hyde. Despite the fact that this first novel, 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.800 Knots and Crosses made relatively little waves at the time, 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.000 the Crime Writers' Association wrote to Ann and asked him 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:28.120 to join, and he noticed increasingly as he went into 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.040 bookshops in Edinburgh. His debut novel wasn't on the shelf 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:35.800 in the Scottish literature section, despite his deepest hopes. Instead 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:39.800 it sat in the crime section, beside Ruth Rendell and P. D. James. 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.440 And that was the moment that Ann thought he'd better 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:43.639 start reading this stuff. 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:45.840 I think I'm still the only crime writer I know 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:48.679 who wasn't a fan of the genre before they started 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:51.760 writing it. I had the only crime novel I remember 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:58.600 reading I was maybe twelve or thirteen, was Shaft, and 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:00.320 I only read it because I wasn't all enough to 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:01.520 see the movie. 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:04.840 Is he John raebis because of John Shaft? 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:09.080 Yeah, yeah, John Shaft. John riebis definitely, and Riebus because 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.680 of Riebus is a picture puzzle. It's a little series 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:16.280 of drawings with letters taken away or added. So, for example, 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.520 if you had a drawing of an ear and above 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:20.479 it was the E with a line through it, that 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:23.080 meant all you wanted was a R. And then someone 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:26.199 rowing a boat row that gives you r RO and 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:28.440 you went on from there. So when he was getting 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:30.640 sent these little picture puzzles in book one, I thought, 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:37.360 being an English literature student studying semiotics and deconstruction, I'll 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:38.639 give him a name that means puzzle. 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:41.320 So if you started the series now, he could be 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:42.320 called John Sadoka. 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:45.480 Yeah, well John Tetris. 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.280 Yeah, it doesn't have a ring to it. I've got 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:50.080 to be and. 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:51.960 Yeah, I mean I've told this story before, but I 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.679 love it. I mean, having invented that name, I then 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.640 spent years explaining to people because it's not a Scottish name, 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:00.560 how I came up with it. We had spent ten 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:03.359 years away from Edinburgh. My wife and I lived in London, 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.960 then lived in France, went back and I met a 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.840 second hand bookseller and he said, oh, come and have 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:11.840 a drink with me and my mates on Friday night. 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:15.440 So I went to this pub and his mates included 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.479 an ex police officer and a guy called Joe Riebis 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.199 And I said to him, really, and he pronounced it 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.880 Rebus and he said, it's a Polish surname. So from 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:30.520 that book eleven or twelve on, I suddenly mentioned Riebus, 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:34.280 halving Polish roots. I didn't know until then. 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:36.120 There's that research again. 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:40.480 Yeah, And Joe said to me, he said, I thought 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:44.440 you got my name from the phone directory And I said, no, 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:46.520 I didn't think of Riebus was even a real name. 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:50.000 So he got the telephone directory from the barman and 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:54.640 we went through the Edinburgh phone directory. Rebus j for Joe, 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:58.320 his address genuinely rank and drive. 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:03.040 Good, serendipitous. 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.280 You could not make that up. You couldn't make it up. 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:08.120 That is wildly good. It does strike mean. You mentioned 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:09.639 that it was about a decade that you and your 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:15.000 wife lived out of Scotland, and that decade the overlay 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:17.840 is best. I understand that. I think some of those books, 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:22.399 the portrait of Edinburgh in particular, is particularly acute, and 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.440 I'm curious about the difference for you of writing about 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.280 it as a place from a distance as opposed to 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:29.440 writing about it when you were there. 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.280 Yeah. The very first Rebus book, nottson Crosses, was written 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:36.600 in Edinburgh in the National Library of Scotland while I 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:40.760