Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 2: Detective see aside of life.
Speaker 1: The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty
Speaker 1: four years as a cop. For twenty five of those
Speaker 1: years I was catching killers. That's what I did for
Speaker 1: a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer
Speaker 1: just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into
Speaker 1: the world in which I operated. The guests I talk
Speaker 1: to each week have amazing stories from all sides of
Speaker 1: the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like
Speaker 1: the people I talk to. Some of the content and
Speaker 1: language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes
Speaker 1: into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now
Speaker 1: as I take you into this world. When things gather shit,
Speaker 1: a special operations group is who you turn to, from
Speaker 1: bomb disposal to taking down the most dangerous violent criminals.
Speaker 1: These are the cops who are sent in when everything
Speaker 1: is on the line, there is no room for failure.
Speaker 1: Retired Victorian cop John Taylor spent thirty four years working
Speaker 1: in the SAG and the Bomb Response Unit. He's a
Speaker 1: genuine tough guy. I had a great chat with John
Speaker 1: about his time in the SAG and you get an
Speaker 1: understanding of what it takes to stop violence before it explodes.
Speaker 2: John Taylor, Welcome to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 3: Thanks Garry, thanks for asking me. It's fantastic.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to say up front, full credit to
Speaker 1: you with the area in which you worked in tactical
Speaker 1: policing and the bomb response unit. That's a sharp end
Speaker 1: of policing and you did it for a hell of
Speaker 1: a long time. So yeah, full credit.
Speaker 3: To be honest. It's though, really enjoyed it, Gary. You know,
Speaker 3: I've mentioned other people in my career was nearly thirty
Speaker 3: four years, and it's been about thirty two of those
Speaker 3: in a special operations group or under it, and it
Speaker 3: feels like only five years. So obviously I enjoyed my work.
Speaker 1: Well, it's good to see someone come out after what
Speaker 1: thirty four years in the cops and come out with
Speaker 1: a smile on your face and still intact physically, mentally
Speaker 1: and emotionally.
Speaker 3: Wellfem I argue about that one, but yeah, yeah. Originally
Speaker 3: I did ten years as a graphic artist screenprint. When
Speaker 3: I left school, you know, I tried to get into
Speaker 3: the police force and finally got there, and my dream
Speaker 3: came true and then yeah, moved on to a specialist area.
Speaker 3: And I have no regrets, you know, seeing things like
Speaker 3: you yourself, you know that other people fortunately don't see.
Speaker 3: But that's part of the job. That's what I accepted
Speaker 3: and did my duty.
Speaker 1: Well, I reading your book through Fear and Fire. In
Speaker 1: one of the pictures, you're saying, I can't believe I
Speaker 1: get paid for doing this, and that that was the
Speaker 1: attitude I had in the cops. There was some adventures
Speaker 1: and some things that I got to experience and what
Speaker 1: they also pay you like, I'd pay to do some
Speaker 1: of the experiences myself.
Speaker 3: So it was a common thing we used to talk about.
Speaker 3: You know, get hanging under a helicopter had been extracted
Speaker 3: from a drug crop, and you're thinking, you know, there's
Speaker 3: a a couple of dolls with the all cover, I'm
Speaker 3: under a rape, I'm looking the forest below me, and
Speaker 3: that it was like a joy ride, you know, like
Speaker 3: we'd say that the guys whoere everyone's saying, I can't
Speaker 3: believe we're getting paid to do this stuff. You know,
Speaker 3: it's you know, there's dangerous. Maybe that goes with it,
Speaker 3: but you know you can't get the smile of your base.
Speaker 3: I'm sure you know you've been in some circumstances like that.
Speaker 3: It's not just unbelievable.
Speaker 1: Most definitely, I get what you're talking about. The other thing,
Speaker 1: in the policing world, the perception of tactical police is like,
Speaker 1: you guys are robots, and yeah, you get called out
Speaker 1: when shit hits a fan and to siegers, arresting high
Speaker 1: risk offenders, all sorts of things when the other police
Speaker 1: haven't got the skills training to respond to the situations.
Speaker 1: I think we should dispel that because in my dealings
Speaker 1: with tactical police and my involvement in the tactical police,
Speaker 1: it's very much there's a human side of it, isn't
Speaker 1: it that people don't understand it.
Speaker 3: Look, we're normal police officers, and we've just been trained
Speaker 3: a bit more in specialist areas, and we have better equipment,
Speaker 3: and as you mentioned, we as a tactical police officers
Speaker 3: you can't afford to fail. Now we are the last resort.
Speaker 3: We can't say this is too hard and move aside
Speaker 3: and let someone else go in. So, you know, and
Speaker 3: we have the human side, As you said, we're just
Speaker 3: normal people. We see a lot of things that We're
Speaker 3: glad other people don't see. We dealt with a lot
Speaker 3: of people that you wouldn't believe their beliefs and what
Speaker 3: they've done. You know, it's surprising and quite disturbing in
Speaker 3: some ways, and we have feelings like everybody else. When
Speaker 3: it comes down to it.
Speaker 1: You touch on the point there and I very much
Speaker 1: felt it in when I do this a comment to
Speaker 1: the tou When you're the team, you're the team there.
Speaker 1: Whatever happens, there's no one else to respond except you, guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's basically and as you know that, we'll
Speaker 3: have a plan A, that we already have a Plan
Speaker 3: B and a Plan C, and then we'll limnify as
Speaker 3: a Plan D if it's required. The there's always forward motion,
Speaker 3: there's no backward steps when it comes down to it.
Speaker 1: Well, I spent most of my career in criminal investigations detectives,
Speaker 1: but I also spent a lot in the tactical side
Speaker 1: of policing as well. There's a friendly rivalry and a
Speaker 1: bit of a bit of perception that the tactical guys
Speaker 1: that are knuckle draggers. I think that was a term
Speaker 1: we use in New South Wales and the tactical blokes
Speaker 1: that you're the soft pen pushes in regards to the detectives.
Speaker 1: But I just want to say this and tell me
Speaker 1: if you think I'm on the right track. I spent
Speaker 1: many a time with the tactical police, and I think
Speaker 1: the training, the professionalism is not fully appreciated. The training
Speaker 1: is intense because if you make a mistake, the consequences
Speaker 1: are devastating.
Speaker 2: But some of the.
Speaker 1: Briefings and debriefings I've been to with tactical police head
Speaker 1: and shoulders above, briefings with detectives, would you agree on
Speaker 1: that that without the shipbagging detectives because I'll have to
Speaker 1: defend them. But there is a there is a professionalism
Speaker 1: that needs to come with tactical policing.
Speaker 3: Definitely, and like we had that rivalry with the textis
Speaker 3: but it's done with great respect, you know, and any operation,
Speaker 3: some of these operations can go for four or five months,
Speaker 3: and those detectives are doing the hard hours, everything all
Speaker 3: lining it up for us to do that tactical arrest
Speaker 3: at the end. They're the ones that actually do the
Speaker 3: hard work that goes with it. So we find like tactically,
Speaker 3: you know, with briefings and things like that. They've got
Speaker 3: to be done correct. It's not all walking into room
Speaker 3: and having a two minute briefing. We'll do reconnaissance on
Speaker 3: the information we get from the investigators, and those reconnaissance
Speaker 3: would be looking at the offender's address or if they're
Speaker 3: going to do an armed robbery, looking the places are
Speaker 3: going to rob So lots of hours go into it,
Speaker 3: and it's got to be very succinct and very well planned,
Speaker 3: and then it has to go before our senior sergeant,
Speaker 3: and then it has to go before our inspector, and then
Speaker 3: we'll do a massive briefing that might go for an hour.
Speaker 3: You're told what you'll be doing, but you've got to
Speaker 3: be able to improvise if it doesn't go that way,
Speaker 3: and it has to be proved by our bosses who
Speaker 3: are happy with the plan that we put forward, and
Speaker 3: then we go ahead and do the job. And yeah,
Speaker 3: we like to term knuckle draggers and stuff like that,
Speaker 3: but we know it's done with a sense of humor
Speaker 3: from the investigators and like we've drunk a lot of
Speaker 3: beers with them and we've had a lot of fun
Speaker 3: and maybe occasionally you can't do with these as we
Speaker 3: kid that the few and you had a bit of
Speaker 3: fun with them, and that they're done the same with us.
Speaker 3: So you know, boys will be boys, girls will be girls.
Speaker 3: You know, they're just going to had that sense of humor,
Speaker 3: but they've got to have the specialism. When it comes
Speaker 3: down to a job, all fun stops and the planning
Speaker 3: goes ahead.
Speaker 1: And I also think, and this is a misconception, and
Speaker 1: I think I've been fortunate because I've seen both sides
Speaker 1: of it too. Some of the most intellectual stimulating conversations
Speaker 1: I've had. But its sitting in the back of the
Speaker 1: dove or the van, waiting to arrest the fen that
Speaker 1: might turn up in the next state hours and the
Speaker 1: conversations you have, Like people think it's one dimensional tactical policing,
Speaker 1: but there's a lot of people that are deep thinkers
Speaker 1: and the philosophers and all sorts of things I've found
Speaker 1: in tactical police.
Speaker 3: I think the best thing I enjoyed about my job
Speaker 3: is a team environment, very team orientated and like like
Speaker 3: a family. Basically, they're watching your back. You know, you
Speaker 3: can do like a forced entry into our house where
Speaker 3: you might be number one going through that door, knowing
Speaker 3: that there's an armed defender, I don't have to turn
Speaker 3: around and know I know they're behind me. I don't
Speaker 3: have to look make sure they're there. And that's the
Speaker 3: way it is. So you had the conversations in a
Speaker 3: car or a location before job's happening, and then basically
Speaker 3: when it starts happening, it's all very serious from there onwards.
Speaker 3: But I suppose a bit of our therapy. Yeah, some
Speaker 3: people have problems occasionally, good that they trust the people
Speaker 3: that discuss it with. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I think in what we're playing around with,
Speaker 1: the thing that always struck me as a professionalism of
Speaker 1: tactical police in that if they do stuff up, the
Speaker 1: consequences are devastating, like a high risk, and they're going
Speaker 1: to be scrutinized no matter what happens. And it's getting worse.
Speaker 1: When I say getting worse, there's more scrutiny now in
Speaker 1: that when you used to first I would imagine when
Speaker 1: you started, when you used to first do operations, it
Speaker 1: wasn't all filmed and recorded. Now you basically everything's been recorded.
Speaker 1: If a mistake was made, you could be pulled aside
Speaker 1: and say, hey, John, slow it down a little bit
Speaker 1: or whatever now it gets critiqued in virtual real time.
Speaker 3: Debriefs were very thorough even in the early days and
Speaker 3: probably showing our age. I was amazed when I got
Speaker 3: to the unit. I've got a page that used to
Speaker 3: go bit the red light. And then I had to
Speaker 3: find a phone somewhere. I might be driving in the
Speaker 3: car and pulling too a petrol station. I need to
Speaker 3: use your phone. And from the pager, we moved to
Speaker 3: a pager. They had a phone number that could bring
Speaker 3: and then pages. They really improved, and they had messages,
Speaker 3: you address, you had the guys. So with technology has improved,
Speaker 3: with body cams on police now and CCTV and everybody's
Speaker 3: got a mobile. And not that we ever did the
Speaker 3: wrong thing, but it's another thing you have to think
Speaker 3: about these days. Yeah, certainly the generations have changed.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll put my hand up.
Speaker 1: I do remember the pager and the first time it
Speaker 1: went off, I had it on my belt and I
Speaker 1: thought that I had something wrong with me. I didn't
Speaker 1: couldn't work out what it was, and then I remembered
Speaker 1: I had the pager. What steered you towards going into
Speaker 1: the tactical side of the policing. What was it you
Speaker 1: joined the cops. Did you always have the dream of
Speaker 1: going into tactical policing when you join the cops or.
Speaker 3: I think this will make some of my mates like unbelievable.
Speaker 3: But when you leave the academy you're probachary councilors, you know,
Speaker 3: and you get put got it, put in communications and
Speaker 3: seeing you can apply for a vacancy somewhere and be
Speaker 3: so junior in those days, basically the senior number got
Speaker 3: the position. So after I think, I like the six
Speaker 3: different police stations to get out on the road, and
Speaker 3: then they set me up. I think the sergeants at
Speaker 3: the communications how you should do in the SOG. They
Speaker 3: like running in bitness and probably as a kid had
Speaker 3: small man syndrome. I'm not particularly tall or big. And
Speaker 3: once I applied, then I started to realize what it
Speaker 3: was all about. And I spoke just stubbornness, right, There's
Speaker 3: no way I was going to quit, you know, And yeah,
Speaker 3: that's basically knew nothing about SOG originally. When I put
Speaker 3: the application in all and used it, I thought it
Speaker 3: was something like search and rescue and yeah, but I
Speaker 3: certainly found my part in the police force, in the
Speaker 3: organization and I'm glad I made that decision. I suffered,
Speaker 3: but I'm glad I made that decision.
Speaker 1: And check the fine print when you applied. They don't
Speaker 1: just hand out the pair of black overalls and a
Speaker 1: big gun and tell you to go and the rest
Speaker 1: of these offenders and.
Speaker 2: Resolve this siege.
Speaker 1: Tell us about the training and the whole process, because
Speaker 1: it was eighty seven, eighty eight, seat where you.
Speaker 3: Eighty nine I got into the group. Eighty seven I
Speaker 3: joined the police force. Eighty nine. I got into the
Speaker 3: group the end of eighty nine, And like I was
Speaker 3: at communications, and that comes out in the gazette. You know,
Speaker 3: you want to be an applicant in the SOG and
Speaker 3: I put my form in. Then you do a medical
Speaker 3: and all that kind of things that goes through it,
Speaker 3: and then you do a basic PT assessment at the
Speaker 3: academy and I think we had over seventy seven applicants
Speaker 3: that year, and then you lose a few along the way,
Speaker 3: and then you have a major half day selection process
Speaker 3: and that starts off. They give you a lot of verbalization,
Speaker 3: but then you do a three point two k run
Speaker 3: with a bulletproof best on carrying the shopguard. You got
Speaker 3: a thirty eight revolver on your hip, and you've got
Speaker 3: a helmet on and you're in GP boots. You're running
Speaker 3: around an oval and from there you return the weapons
Speaker 3: and give them back their ballistic best and all that,
Speaker 3: and you're in a boilersuit. You had to wear a
Speaker 3: boiler suit when I was overalls. And then you'd run
Speaker 3: down to the eraet swim across the era and then
Speaker 3: up the other side. It was about fifty meter sort
Speaker 3: of climb, not quite vertical, but a big rope was there.
Speaker 3: Once you got up the top, you do a kilometer
Speaker 3: run up there around a loop and then back down
Speaker 3: the rope back across the era, and then you do
Speaker 3: one hundred meter a man carry on one of the
Speaker 3: sog guys and they're all big boys, and you know,
Speaker 3: I would have been probably seventy kilos ringing wet as
Speaker 3: it was. And then you do that twice more. And
Speaker 3: it was a colder state for Melbourne that year, and
Speaker 3: so a couple were taken off to hyperthermia to the
Speaker 3: hospital and I can hear the SG just call him
Speaker 3: a week. We had better idea now about yeah, but
Speaker 3: you can imagine what it was like in those early days,
Speaker 3: and then.
Speaker 4: We do a whole push uppes, all those exercises that
Speaker 4: are bad your body the way they were done, bunny
Speaker 4: pops and things like that, and by the end of
Speaker 4: it you're down to about thirty people.
Speaker 3: And then a couple of weeks later you go before
Speaker 3: a board and we started our course with twenty two
Speaker 3: people and it was a really small classroom. You'd the
Speaker 3: shoulder and the shoulder in the classroom, and on that
Speaker 3: way you'd learned about weapons techniques, climbing, driving, reconnaissance, you know,
Speaker 3: mobile Lindo steps and the list just went on gas
Speaker 3: and by the end of it, twelve weeks later, it's
Speaker 3: all of us in the classroom and just your attrition
Speaker 3: rate is unbelievable, and we had improved, Like I think
Speaker 3: that I was part of that. I became a fitness
Speaker 3: instructor where we started to manage people's injuries. But in
Speaker 3: those days, I think it's competition and see how many
Speaker 3: people that can get rid of on a course.
Speaker 1: It's bad, bad, but I look back and it just
Speaker 1: puts a smile on the face. It brings back so
Speaker 1: many memories. I think I did the course for it
Speaker 1: was a six week course for two RG Tactical Response
Speaker 1: Group in it would have been eighty seven eighty eight.
Speaker 1: And I look at the policing now and before I
Speaker 1: retired in the police, and I've got some people, you know,
Speaker 1: complaining about workplace issues or HR issues, and I just
Speaker 1: think what went down there? And you know, you talk
Speaker 1: about doing all the wrong exercises like the log run
Speaker 1: down virtually down cliff faces.
Speaker 2: It was just chaotic.
Speaker 1: And I forget how many people are on our course,
Speaker 1: but we I know I ended up in hospital at
Speaker 1: one stage, and I think probably three quarters of the
Speaker 1: course ended up in.
Speaker 2: Hospital at some stage.
Speaker 1: But there was no consideration that they were doing anything wrong.
Speaker 1: It was just partner That's what it was in those days.
Speaker 1: And like even we had I suppose on the twelve
Speaker 1: week course, worst day physically in a way was the
Speaker 1: gas day.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, been.
Speaker 3: Putting in a little room and a gas canis so
Speaker 3: that should clear a house is basically clearing a toilet
Speaker 3: that we're in. You know, you're going there with your
Speaker 3: mask and that's a take off your mask and you're
Speaker 3: holding your breath and they want to what's your name?
Speaker 3: Trying and say your name without breathing knowing very soon
Speaker 3: that you're going to have to take that gulp of
Speaker 3: their like cus gas and sea gas. We had to experience.
Speaker 3: It's like a cocktail, experimenting the whole lot. Yeah, you
Speaker 3: had not running out your nose. It was really hit
Speaker 3: in the ground. I think it was disgusting, but better
Speaker 3: done these days. It was a learning period and as
Speaker 3: I said, things have improved. A lot of guys been
Speaker 3: to university, have to plombers in fitness and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: So in the newer courses used to managing Ridge, it
Speaker 3: wasn't about getting rid of someone unless we thought they
Speaker 3: were unsuitable. But you know, on the the eleventh week
Speaker 3: of my course, we did a reconnaissance. You know, they
Speaker 3: give you an address and outside of Melbourne or something
Speaker 3: that you've been doing the course all day, extremely tired,
Speaker 3: you have to go in through reconnaissance. You know, what's
Speaker 3: the back door look like, what's the front door look like?
Speaker 3: Where would you form up your people? How many people
Speaker 3: would you need? Which ways to the door open? And
Speaker 3: I twisted my ankle really badly in a divot. Then
Speaker 3: the next on the twelfth week, we had a twenty
Speaker 3: k run, so again with the boiler suit. The shotgun
Speaker 3: doesn't have a sling. You got to carry it and
Speaker 3: had a thirty eight pistol on the hip and one
Speaker 3: lead of water bottle and that we had to run
Speaker 3: as only four of us left anyway, And as about
Speaker 3: a year later when I did something, tome angler had
Speaker 3: it xtraight and I had a broken bone in it,
Speaker 3: so it actually had broken the angle on the eleventh week.
Speaker 3: But I knew it was bad. But if I showed that,
Speaker 3: it was a sign of weakness and I would have
Speaker 3: been kicked off. Of course, we lost someone in the
Speaker 3: eleventh week, you know.
Speaker 1: So yeah, but you look back and I again, I
Speaker 1: look back with a smile on my face that you
Speaker 1: get through something like that, and you look back with
Speaker 1: fond memories because you appreciate how tough it was. The
Speaker 1: gas we went in the did the gas run, and
Speaker 1: that into that room with the gas lead off. They
Speaker 1: took us from memory. We were doing leopard crawls over
Speaker 1: gravel roads and all that beforehand, working up a sweat.
Speaker 1: We had no idea that the gas would attack or
Speaker 1: the moisture on your body.
Speaker 3: So all places.
Speaker 2: Worked us up into a lather.
Speaker 1: And there was a dirty puddle of water, and we thought, oh,
Speaker 1: good idea, we will leopard crawl through that and cool
Speaker 1: down a bit.
Speaker 2: Then they take you into the gas room.
Speaker 1: They've warned you that some people might panic, some people
Speaker 1: might piss themselves, some people who knows what.
Speaker 2: Reaction you goin to get.
Speaker 1: So you're whipped up into a frenzy and then you
Speaker 1: go in there and they rip your mask off and
Speaker 1: exactly what you were saying, what's your name?
Speaker 2: Where do you work? And you just you come out
Speaker 2: and just yeah, I say it.
Speaker 1: Now. I'm a little bit older and wiser, but if
Speaker 1: someone said, you know, even if I wasn't being paid
Speaker 1: to do, They're like, oh, yeah, give it the game. See
Speaker 1: what it's like. And that just hits you. When people
Speaker 1: ask me what it feels like, I say, imagine if
Speaker 1: someone poured pepper into your eyes and down your throat.
Speaker 2: That's sort of you can.
Speaker 3: Look back and laugh. Then they video it the old
Speaker 3: VHS recorded like eighty nine, as you imagine, and yeah,
Speaker 3: I do have a copy of it. And the looks
Speaker 3: on some of the faces that boys are going at
Speaker 3: the rims like what's this going to do to us?
Speaker 3: And like you're all over the same bucket. It's not
Speaker 3: coming out. Yeah, is not too good, but that's what
Speaker 3: it was. You know, no regrets, no regrets.
Speaker 1: What characteristics you think get people through and what are
Speaker 1: the type of things you're looking for in people to
Speaker 1: get them to be a good operator in the tactical
Speaker 1: sphere of policing, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Very much. You know, ran a lot of courses involved
Speaker 3: in a lot of courses. Certainly the selection phase I
Speaker 3: sort of a lot of time for me. I'm looking
Speaker 3: for the gray man, you know, that does everything that's required,
Speaker 3: but when he speaks, people listen to him and there's
Speaker 3: no need to speak. He's a person that doesn't talk
Speaker 3: so very much. We're looking for those that can act
Speaker 3: as an individual. Also, it's important, more important to be
Speaker 3: a team member.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: I've been in situations where I've had no one around me.
Speaker 3: I've had to react by myself, and that's what we're
Speaker 3: looking for. Someone that can think themselves hopefully make the
Speaker 3: right decision. They don't want show ponies and things like that.
Speaker 3: And like in the early days, yes, it was people
Speaker 3: about getting into the soog and wearing what they call
Speaker 3: the black pajamas and things like that, and they had
Speaker 3: the wrong mentality for that. Probably fortunate for me, I
Speaker 3: was only very junior confortable when I put in for it.
Speaker 3: No one knew anything about me. They thought I've sent
Speaker 3: it from a procreationary period. But you had detectives that
Speaker 3: have been in the police officer for a large minute
Speaker 3: time and other senior members, and they had reputations, some
Speaker 3: were good, some were bad, so you can basically you
Speaker 3: know it's about they would targeted. Yeah, before it started,
Speaker 3: you know, and like I was a little gray man,
Speaker 3: it's fantastic twenty two people. I was like, I heard
Speaker 3: of sheep uppy, the one in the middle. No one
Speaker 3: would see it, and then they started dropping off. Damn
Speaker 3: there was nowhere to ye now. So yeah, yeah, but
Speaker 3: I don't think there caused any pride.
Speaker 1: I like the term great man, and that's advice I
Speaker 1: give people because you're on a course like that, in
Speaker 1: a tactical course where they're putting.
Speaker 2: The pressure on.
Speaker 1: Invariably the person that shines in the first day or
Speaker 1: two shines very bright, but then you see the flaws
Speaker 1: in the character that come up. And that's that quiet
Speaker 1: person seeing in the background, just getting things done, not
Speaker 1: make much of a fuss, and it seems to get.
Speaker 3: There and then only've got a good personality and that's
Speaker 3: what you're looking for, you know. And as I say it,
Speaker 3: if they start talking near that he's talking, I'm listening
Speaker 3: for a reason.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I take on board what you say that
Speaker 1: you were young going into the SAJ the selection course here,
Speaker 1: I did three tactical policings through my career TRG State
Speaker 1: Protection Support Unit, then close personal protection, and I got
Speaker 1: to say it was me that was changing as I'm
Speaker 1: going through when the young bloke you have fresh just
Speaker 1: in the cops, this is great. I'm getting paid to
Speaker 1: do this where they're absolutely torturing us. I'm thinking, this
Speaker 1: is fantastic, And there was no I enjoyed every moment
Speaker 1: of it. Next course, I do. I'm a little bit old,
Speaker 1: a little bit wise, So why am I getting it?
Speaker 1: Why are you yelling at me? Why am I getting humiliated?
Speaker 1: Why am I putting through that? And so as you
Speaker 1: get older, I think you get set in your ways
Speaker 1: a little bit, and so you can mold the younger version.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very easy.
Speaker 3: The surprising you mentioned about, Yeah, I was junior as
Speaker 3: a police officer. But when I going to the group
Speaker 3: of twenty nine. I was said by a couple of
Speaker 3: just an old man, what are you doing here? You know,
Speaker 3: twenty nine, you know, and cause a lot of them
Speaker 3: were about twenty five twenty six. Couple got into the
Speaker 3: group and they're about twenty one twenty two, you know.
Speaker 3: But even my first day, you know, it started with
Speaker 3: one of them saying, oh, you know, one of the
Speaker 3: senior guys saying, you know, we had to clean our boots.
Speaker 3: And I said to him, mate, don't hold your breast
Speaker 3: because I hadn't twelve weeks again do an elak areat
Speaker 3: There's no way that I was going to basically grubble
Speaker 3: to anybody. So that was my introduction. And then they'd
Speaker 3: one of them any fun and started rumor that I
Speaker 3: come from the priesthood, and he thought it was so funny,
Speaker 3: but he had them all petrified, like what if we
Speaker 3: do something wrong. It's just come from the priesthood.
Speaker 2: And can we trust him.
Speaker 3: I didn't get to do an entry for three months,
Speaker 3: you know, I was and then someone mentioned it to me,
Speaker 3: like what are you talking about? And they all just
Speaker 3: burst out laughing. You know, it's part of getting into
Speaker 3: the family. It was there joke and we did other
Speaker 3: jokes and other people, but boy, I couldn't understand. I
Speaker 3: was always cut up. They weren't touched trusting me to
Speaker 3: do the entry team. And when I finally started the
Speaker 3: interesting you start at the back. You might be the
Speaker 3: eighth person in the house, and then finally you start
Speaker 3: moving forward. You want to be that number one go
Speaker 3: through the door to show that, hey, I've got it.
Speaker 3: You know. It was humorous to them, but boys frustrating
Speaker 3: beneath that I've got nothing wrong.
Speaker 2: Pretty soon, yeah, but they would look at you differently
Speaker 2: in that environment.
Speaker 1: But that's a practical joke side of things, and that
Speaker 1: that that breaks the pressure a lot of times, because
Speaker 1: that's what I've always found. There's always someone shitstirr and
Speaker 1: someone having a bit of fun, and it is a
Speaker 1: good way of diffusing tense situation.
Speaker 3: It is you know, you're sitting in the car waiting
Speaker 3: for an armed robbery to appen. There's for you in
Speaker 3: a car. You might have been sitting there for six
Speaker 3: or seven hours and someone drops off to sleep. There's
Speaker 3: always someone awaken. Next minute, someone's pouring a canteen on
Speaker 3: your brain or something like that. The rest of the
Speaker 3: shift you sit in a wet seed, you know, but yeah,
Speaker 3: you get bored. But as you said, it's human, hure,
Speaker 3: a bit of fun. That's how we basically deal with
Speaker 3: some of the precious situations by being by being human.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I picked up in your book to talking
Speaker 1: about Yeah, there's a lot of alpha males in a
Speaker 1: unit like that, And I think you were describing working
Speaker 1: out in the gym, which is quite funny. I've seen
Speaker 1: that too, like who's the fittest, who's the toughest, and
Speaker 1: people pushing each other. So a lot, a lot of
Speaker 1: interesting dynamics.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're considering I was an old man in some
Speaker 3: said I was basically on Yeah, one seventy two in heights,
Speaker 3: so it was fairly small for the unit. But they
Speaker 3: say the realized that throw the little guys through those
Speaker 3: little windows, you know when you do an entry. So
Speaker 3: there were smaller guys coming into the unit. We weren't
Speaker 3: all sixteen over one hundred kilos. A lot of the guys.
Speaker 3: Big thing was the over one hundred kilos. You know,
Speaker 3: I have lots of meals, go to the gym, and
Speaker 3: you know, I was a runner and I had good
Speaker 3: makes that were runners in the unit. Do you know,
Speaker 3: you're all you didn't have any clicks. They make sure
Speaker 3: that never happened. But you know, you had guys who
Speaker 3: go off running the other guys who go to the gym.
Speaker 3: Sort of based it out for a small blake. It
Speaker 3: was interesting, but you know you've got to learn. You
Speaker 3: got to earn your reputation. You know, it doesn't mean
Speaker 3: about being tough with just about being that gray man
Speaker 3: doing every task it's given to you, doing the shitty tasks,
Speaker 3: you know, whether it's administration or something like that, or
Speaker 3: just going and washing the vehicles and doing it properly,
Speaker 3: you know, with the unit, a tactical unit, as you know,
Speaker 3: you may be in told to one mistake, but don't
Speaker 3: ever make the same mistake twice, you know. It's yeah,
Speaker 3: that's the bad.
Speaker 1: That was the pressure of a pressure of units like that. That, yeah,
Speaker 1: and quite rightly so, because you know, you make a
Speaker 1: mistake and it can be a.
Speaker 2: Critical mistake, literally a critical mistake. And yeah, so.
Speaker 1: Everyone's got to be on their on their game. And
Speaker 1: that's why I set up front total respect for you
Speaker 1: doing it for as long as long as you did.
Speaker 1: And we've got blokes in New South Wales that have
Speaker 1: basically made their career staying in the unit, and I
Speaker 1: just respect them because it's real pressure as a detective.
Speaker 1: We make mistakes, you get criticized in court. You know,
Speaker 1: occasionally it escalates in the critical things. But make a mistake,
Speaker 1: you get criticized in court. But the high stakes in
Speaker 1: tactical police.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's and I love to emphasize, especially to your viewers,
Speaker 3: like we talk about tactical members and all that, and
Speaker 3: it must be very dangerous within a group like the SOG.
Speaker 3: Basically we'red my the uniform members and the detectives, the
Speaker 3: playing closed members. They're the first ones that gave was
Speaker 3: seen that as it's occurring. Generally when we arrive, cordons
Speaker 3: and containments are in place, and basically we're there to
Speaker 3: resolve the situation. So people might say told me is dangerous.
Speaker 3: We always believe the uniform and those detectives out there,
Speaker 3: they're the front line troops are the ones that are
Speaker 3: really putting it on the line, which I always try
Speaker 3: and emphasize even in the book.
Speaker 2: You know, I think it's.
Speaker 1: Important because the specialist police get recognition in different ways
Speaker 1: and the uniforms just sort of blending they're the police,
Speaker 1: but yeah, one hundred percent, they're the ones that just
Speaker 1: don't know what they're walking into when they knock on
Speaker 1: the door. And you know, we're seeing across the country
Speaker 1: a lot of tragedies that have happened with police just
Speaker 1: going about their jobs and not really realizing that it's
Speaker 1: attacktical situation they're walking into.
Speaker 2: It's cost them their lives. So how did you feel
Speaker 2: when you got through?
Speaker 3: Really, basically we had done the twenty k run the
Speaker 3: day before that was on the Thursday Friday. We have
Speaker 3: a falling out and I basically really passed out. I
Speaker 3: could see I was going white. I think the ankle
Speaker 3: had it broken. Ankle really came down to it and
Speaker 3: they during the run, you have like a middle clip
Speaker 3: holding your canteen, an army canteen, and that worked its
Speaker 3: way across my back from one way or the other,
Speaker 3: so all the skin was rubbed off my back. It
Speaker 3: just totally exhausted, and you know, best thing, I was
Speaker 3: looking forward to four weeks leap which I had owing
Speaker 3: and it was a good relief. They presented me with
Speaker 3: a dog collar and they lead because they reckon I'd
Speaker 3: do it, which is. It was an honor that I
Speaker 3: would do anything during selection phase. When I got into graping,
Speaker 3: they were up at maun A rapidly and that we
Speaker 3: got working up one night. There's only about six of
Speaker 3: us left then and hooded put in the back of
Speaker 3: the car, driven sometime over a rough road and then
Speaker 3: basically we're walked blindfolded to an edge. They had a
Speaker 3: rope tighter around my legs and they said jump. I
Speaker 3: just went jump and they grabbed me and they went
Speaker 3: right off at me, you idiot. That's the hood off
Speaker 3: them on the edge edge of the cliff.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: It was doing our qualification ground nighttime repel A's sale
Speaker 3: and I'm they said jump. I was going to jump,
Speaker 3: and that's why they gave me a dog collar and
Speaker 3: a lead.
Speaker 2: They said, that's that's a fair spray. I would imagine
Speaker 2: there'd be a mixture of and then looking.
Speaker 3: At you with you idiot, Yeah, maybe I was just
Speaker 3: so I can't give you a shit anyway.
Speaker 1: You know, if if it exhausted you that much, who
Speaker 1: care I go off a cliff. So explain to our
Speaker 1: listeners what the role of SOG is and what the
Speaker 1: history of it is, How it came into play.
Speaker 3: Well, this is basically it was formed in ninety seventy
Speaker 3: seven and it was after all tactically brutiably formed around
Speaker 3: that period after an incident in Sydney in Chogham, Commonwealth
Speaker 3: heads of State where bomb went off and I think
Speaker 3: it killed three people that were actually picking up garbage
Speaker 3: at the time, and then it was needed that everybody
Speaker 3: knew the tactical group, so that basically that was how
Speaker 3: it was formed. In seventy seven, I was in Intake fourteen,
Speaker 3: so I've been thirteen thirteen groups before me. So basically
Speaker 3: that was how it formed. And in the early days
Speaker 3: in that year was there they had to scrape for
Speaker 3: all the equipment. They looked originally when the SOOG started
Speaker 3: they looked for military people, so and then they also
Speaker 3: had the bomb response side that they had to form
Speaker 3: and all that. So it's starting from scratch would have
Speaker 3: been very early in those days.
Speaker 2: And what type of jobs do they respond to?
Speaker 3: The cant of terrorists basically, so it's sort of domestic
Speaker 3: violence in layman terms. Basically people that are going to
Speaker 3: rob banks, violent domestics where there's a hostage siege situation.
Speaker 3: Even people that might be looking at self harming and
Speaker 3: they might be in a location that normal police can't
Speaker 3: get them to get to them. Drug crops. A lot
Speaker 3: of in the early days, we did a lot of
Speaker 3: drug props and now a lot of things are droponic
Speaker 3: and stuff like that. So the big crops of ten
Speaker 3: million dollars out in the bush now basically gone. So
Speaker 3: you go out in the bush for maybe six to
Speaker 3: seven days and just sit off a crop waiting for
Speaker 3: the offenders to come in. And certainly in the early
Speaker 3: days are robberies which aren't of frequent now as you know,
Speaker 3: you know, high risk warrants and things like that. Also,
Speaker 3: the ESG needs to do witness protection, you know, when
Speaker 3: we had the Wall Street murders and things like that,
Speaker 3: a couple of those witnesses I'd spend seven or eight
Speaker 3: days with them on a farm somewhere in Victoria, an interstate,
Speaker 3: so we had to carry guns and generally we'd have
Speaker 3: basic another group look from during the day and I'll
Speaker 3: just do patrols at night basically by myself. I had
Speaker 3: mbgs and things like that, and a lot of preparation
Speaker 3: for other jobs, just observation posts set up. You know
Speaker 3: that the techniques couldn't get into and we had do
Speaker 3: hobs on a premises or a rural property and things
Speaker 3: like that. Helping people install listening devices have the appropriate
Speaker 3: warrants as you can imagine, but you know, we basically
Speaker 3: enter a house and help with fair installation, just cover
Speaker 3: them that they wouldn't get compromised. I remember one we
Speaker 3: did and were told that the alleged offenders were actually
Speaker 3: in the house and I had night vision on. They
Speaker 3: picked the locks and we'd just do a walk through
Speaker 3: the house. Sure, and I come in the main bedroom
Speaker 3: and the husband and wife were in bed. He's snoring away,
Speaker 3: and like you know, there's like little hearts puppet, we
Speaker 3: need to get out. Don't squeak the floorboards, you know,
Speaker 3: Like you have jobs like that where, yeah, you get
Speaker 3: a bit of a fright, maybe bad intel by surveillance
Speaker 3: units those days they're actually home when they shouldn't have be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well the type of things you describe, I've seen
Speaker 1: all that, and then you just don't know what's going
Speaker 1: to happen when you're going in there. And you know,
Speaker 1: I've had you guys out when we're looking to lock
Speaker 1: someone up and in the bush keeping surveillance virtually just
Speaker 1: in the middle of the bush for a couple of
Speaker 1: days before we're ready to raid the place, waiting for
Speaker 1: the people to come come home. So interesting, the interesting
Speaker 1: challenges and a lot of diversity.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, yeah, I had one in a town like
Speaker 3: we do in every reconnaissance, and it was a semi
Speaker 3: rual property. It was quite large, no the houses nearby,
Speaker 3: and he had the habit if he's very paranoid, you
Speaker 3: come out on his front porch and open up with
Speaker 3: a gun. I just fired away. Anyway, it was decided
Speaker 3: that we had to do a reconnaissance on the premises,
Speaker 3: so I was with a very new member. It just
Speaker 3: completed the course. He wasn't a priest, so he was
Speaker 3: fine to come with me. But we went on a
Speaker 3: navy probably had lots of bush and shrub and it
Speaker 3: was a really still night. We got to the edge
Speaker 3: of the property and the main team two guys going
Speaker 3: to walk up the center of his property, which is
Speaker 3: really clean of all scrub trees, large trees, depressions, but
Speaker 3: very clean property. And they walked up and they did
Speaker 3: the reconnaissance and then they walked back out. We covered them,
Speaker 3: had a night vision on and then the sergeant who
Speaker 3: was observing this with dye vision goggles across the road
Speaker 3: and had a sniper there. So most WI came out
Speaker 3: the same way. It's going to be quiet, you know,
Speaker 3: like instead of going through the bushes again. So we
Speaker 3: got onto the guy's property. We about ten meters from
Speaker 3: his front door, I suppose by time we came out,
Speaker 3: and his dog started up, and he just came out
Speaker 3: in that porch in a second and just opened up,
Speaker 3: and we'd already hit the ground in a slight depression
Speaker 3: and he was just firing away. But are we getting
Speaker 3: calms that he wasn't actually sort of shooting it maybe
Speaker 3: over the top of the risk, but he couldn't pick us.
Speaker 3: And the dogs came flying down past us, and you know,
Speaker 3: they missed us way about it needed the dogs and anyway,
Speaker 3: then he called them back into stoppage, which is basically
Speaker 3: something was wrong for his gun. Now the cartage got
Speaker 3: caught and our sniper who had maxic height which is
Speaker 3: like night vision and all that, so he's got a stoppage. Anyway,
Speaker 3: the dogs came back and I had a night vision
Speaker 3: oguss the green glow their eyes, and I had the
Speaker 3: gas out. Don't want to hurt a dog, but you
Speaker 3: had that anger in your body and that sort of
Speaker 3: knowing that dogs can pick that up. And as the
Speaker 3: dogs walk past, he's just growling at me keept on walking.
Speaker 3: Didn't when to have anything to do with me. And
Speaker 3: the new guy beside me, this is his first three
Speaker 3: connaissance out there. All he said to me is like
Speaker 3: I love this shit, you know, and good friends with
Speaker 3: him still, just that was the member we wanted, you know,
Speaker 3: and that anyway, it took us about half an hour
Speaker 3: to battle up his property. He was trying to find us.
Speaker 3: We had depressions in the ground that were using the
Speaker 3: shadows and things like that. He probably didn't want to
Speaker 3: find us, but he was looking for us. And yeah,
Speaker 3: as you just don't know whey circumstances are going to go.
Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned dogs, now, you mentioned in your book,
Speaker 1: and I don't think there's many tactical police that haven't
Speaker 1: had some dog experiences. Terrifying at the time, funny after
Speaker 1: if you escape. I remember doing an early morning raid,
Speaker 1: climbing a fence, jumping over the fence and just hearing
Speaker 1: this growling behind me in a dirty rotten rock wheeler
Speaker 1: with all the dribble coming down and I had to spray.
Speaker 2: I sprayed it.
Speaker 1: It just shook its head and just looked cranky, going
Speaker 1: what the fuck have you just done? But I had
Speaker 1: another one with a Doberman and a German shepherd a
Speaker 1: drug plantation and it wasn't a tactical it was the tectives.
Speaker 1: We have just gone out there to have a little
Speaker 1: There was a report of it and we found that
Speaker 1: and the offender let the dogs off, and the dogs
Speaker 1: attacked a young detective. He's wrestling with the dogs where
Speaker 1: about one hundred meters away and he's in the wrestle
Speaker 1: with the dogs. Shot his fingers off like the dogs
Speaker 1: had him pinned down. So that was a chaotic, chaotic
Speaker 1: mess with the with the dogs. But yeah, there they
Speaker 1: had another layer.
Speaker 2: To yeah to the operation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And a lot of people wouldn't realize when you're
Speaker 3: doing briefing and information that's coming in and get briefing
Speaker 3: this this person's got killer dogs and they'll they'll take
Speaker 3: you out the size of an elephant. That we never
Speaker 3: really had any issues with any dogs. They picked up
Speaker 3: the aggression in you. If you've got that aggression task focused,
Speaker 3: you know, We've had dogs just open their bows as
Speaker 3: he runs through the house, which is you know a
Speaker 3: mens Yeah. And basically all the guys, you know, all
Speaker 3: these big tarp s o g guys, they love animals,
Speaker 3: you know, they don't want to hurd a dog. Comes
Speaker 3: down to it. There was you know, we're doing a
Speaker 3: reconnaissance and it was on hydro products in a big
Speaker 3: shed on a rural property and the only entrance was
Speaker 3: the front door, and they had a cyclone fence around it,
Speaker 3: a large cyclone fence, and they had a dog there
Speaker 3: and like a a up start barking every time we
Speaker 3: made it and approached to do a reconnaissance. We had
Speaker 3: surveillance here. They would cameras in there, listening devices. And
Speaker 3: so the first night we agitated that dog, I just
Speaker 3: kept on walking up and then we disappeared. The owners
Speaker 3: would come out from fifty meters away from their house
Speaker 3: and see what was going on, and the barking got
Speaker 3: less and less and less. Anyway, we came back the
Speaker 3: next night, but I came back a whole lot of
Speaker 3: dog biscuits. I was laid up with dog biscuits and
Speaker 3: probably took me an hour and a half before I
Speaker 3: got to the cage. We had to back off a
Speaker 3: few times. He only came out again, and he was
Speaker 3: getting sick of the dog too, you know, barking all
Speaker 3: the time. Finally got that first dog biscuit in his mouth,
Speaker 3: and then I got the second Monday, and then I
Speaker 3: was scratching you through the wire, and I thought, oh well,
Speaker 3: I got to start climbing this fence. And I climbed
Speaker 3: the fence and give him another bit biskit, and then
Speaker 3: the rest of the boys walk up and he starts
Speaker 3: growning it, and give him another biscuit and exit their
Speaker 3: old climb out of fence. They get into the shed
Speaker 3: and by this time the dogs starting to make so
Speaker 3: much noise that it's purring, it's starting to it's just
Speaker 3: loving you. I'm running your stomach. It's got its legs
Speaker 3: in the air. And they do their reconnaissance and basically
Speaker 3: we get out, but they told me keep it down,
Speaker 3: keep the dog down. We're all happy noises in the end,
Speaker 3: And the next night we did the actual the raid
Speaker 3: on the premises. I made sure I did the shed
Speaker 3: because I didn't want anything happening to the dog. Dog
Speaker 3: didn't bark when we are walked up.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, you'll you'll mate the dog.
Speaker 1: Have you ever come up against geese which sounds strange,
Speaker 1: but done a couple of places where the Druggis would
Speaker 1: have geese a warning sign if the cops or other
Speaker 1: criminals are coming up to their premises, be hard to
Speaker 1: keep quiet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got a hell of the fright one night
Speaker 3: with Coach.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know rural.
Speaker 3: It wasn't rual. It was actually Saburnie in Melbourne. We
Speaker 3: do reconnaissance on a on a place and that over
Speaker 3: the neighbors Spence and it was one of those nights
Speaker 3: full murder and all that kind of stuff. We put
Speaker 3: our heads over Spence to get over it and like
Speaker 3: these two goats just bleted, you know, they gave this
Speaker 3: and it was so still. It was like I was
Speaker 3: hit by the overpressure of that noise, both of the
Speaker 3: sort of landing back on the gravel, just holding our hearts.
Speaker 3: What the hell was that? You know?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all the different experiences. These are the ones
Speaker 1: that have come through, and most jobs come through and
Speaker 1: people are unscathed. There's one in your one in your book,
Speaker 1: and I think it was fairly early in your career
Speaker 1: where you've gone into arrest someone that was Anthony White
Speaker 1: had broken into a house.
Speaker 2: Do you want to tell us? Tell us that that.
Speaker 3: Story fairly early in my career in the in the group,
Speaker 3: pretty sad story in the way this gentleman came down.
Speaker 3: He had mental health issues which were suddenly given understanding
Speaker 3: by then. But there are a lot of X fact
Speaker 3: on this job. That he came down from South Australia,
Speaker 3: just pulled up in Deer Park, a suburb in Melbourne.
Speaker 3: Out of Melbourne. I had a twenty two rifle with him,
Speaker 3: telescopic sight and just started firing shots down the streets,
Speaker 3: lamp posts, at science, at people and naturally everybody's running everywhere.
Speaker 3: And then he basically tried to get in the front
Speaker 3: door of the house. Couldn't do that. Was an only couple.
Speaker 3: I think they were in their seventies. Shouldn't say that
Speaker 3: now they were out and a look at my age.
Speaker 3: But then he smashed the front roune through window, got
Speaker 3: through there and they ran down the hallway, got into
Speaker 3: a back bedroom. They barricaded themselves. He fired a shot
Speaker 3: which hit the lady and then he forced his way
Speaker 3: in there and the husband managed to convince him to
Speaker 3: let him go, and he half carried his wife out
Speaker 3: of the house and as I going and fired another
Speaker 3: shot and became a siege situation. You know, fairly earlier
Speaker 3: I m in the groups three or four months by then.
Speaker 3: There was a five man team, very cold, wet, miserable afternoon.
Speaker 3: We came through the back of the property. It was
Speaker 3: clay building up on our boots and we're basically out
Speaker 3: there negotiators. We're trying to make contact. We could hear
Speaker 3: a child's voice at one stage, hear a woman's voice
Speaker 3: at one stage. So we were too short where there
Speaker 3: are hostages or whatever was going inside. And finally our
Speaker 3: bosses gave us the go ahead, you need to go
Speaker 3: in there do our hostage rescue. As we entered through
Speaker 3: the back door, went into a laundry. Then we turned left,
Speaker 3: if imagined, into the kitchen and where two of our
Speaker 3: members were confronted by him. He fired a shot. They
Speaker 3: returned fire, and both our members went down, and the
Speaker 3: membering that the three of us behind and all of
Speaker 3: us thought the same thing. Those two members have been shot.
Speaker 3: They went down on their backs. Things were happening very fast.
Speaker 3: We couldn't fire shots because who would have been flying
Speaker 3: over the top of their heads, and one member managed
Speaker 3: to return fire. I ducked out through the back door
Speaker 3: and came to the kitchen sitting hiding behind the fridge,
Speaker 3: so I let go with the shot. Then was at
Speaker 3: a rem int an eight seventy shotgun had sg's in it,
Speaker 3: an SG carpage for the viewers holds about nine pellets.
Speaker 3: They're about the size of the thirty eighth round. So
Speaker 3: the other member was beside me. He buyed two rounds
Speaker 3: and skipped those off the fridge. Obviously he could see
Speaker 3: the same threat. We then ran back inside, jumped over
Speaker 3: those members that were trying to get up, and basically
Speaker 3: arrested the offender. But he actually died at the scene
Speaker 3: when he came down to it, so it was mental
Speaker 3: health issues. Obviously he was putting these voices on to
Speaker 3: give us the impression that there are hostages and things
Speaker 3: like that. So one of those unusual circumstances, and fortunately
Speaker 3: the woman survived her injury. But you know, shocking state
Speaker 3: affairs for them. Although there's no humor in this, but
Speaker 3: because I'd shopped the fridge, so someone else had too.
Speaker 3: Was a calbinador fridge. So my nickname for the next
Speaker 3: six months was Calvin.
Speaker 2: Life can be so cruel. Come Atkelvin, it can be
Speaker 2: so cruel.
Speaker 3: You do the right thing and surprising and like, yeah,
Speaker 3: we had you know, rumors are starting to come out
Speaker 3: that we'd buy through a frosted window. Just luck that
Speaker 3: we get the fridge and like the video. And then
Speaker 3: the worst part is, after an instant like that, your
Speaker 3: views might realize basically we're under investigation. Naturally, it has
Speaker 3: to be done right. We're separated, our weapons have passed over,
Speaker 3: and we're not allowed to talk to each other. We're
Speaker 3: placing individual cars. The homicide squad turns up and actually
Speaker 3: we're sitting there for an hour and a half not
Speaker 3: talking to anybody, can't contact their families and things like that,
Speaker 3: and you feel like a criminal, especially as a junior member.
Speaker 3: You know, where my buddy is the more experience, what
Speaker 3: should we be doing here? And then we're just basically
Speaker 3: told go home and be interviewed. The next day we
Speaker 3: turned up and we'd be told we'll do a video
Speaker 3: re enactment, which is really a no note, you know,
Speaker 3: because everybody proceed these things differently, and your viewers would
Speaker 3: know that, and so I do my reenactment. The other
Speaker 3: guys do their reenactment. How boys hadn't been shot. But
Speaker 3: when they discharged their weapons originally because of the clay
Speaker 3: you're online. Oh, the recall from their weapons, basically they
Speaker 3: slipped was like ice in the kitchen and that's why
Speaker 3: they went down. And the offender's weapon at the end,
Speaker 3: when it was checked, it had one of our rounds
Speaker 3: going through the telescopic sight. So basically it means that
Speaker 3: it was pointing at you when it was fired. And
Speaker 3: that's not a wall actually in the office, the SAG
Speaker 3: office at the moment. But yeah, we get interviewed, you
Speaker 3: feel like a criminal, and yeah, we have five different
Speaker 3: stories that have been video read acted. You know, we
Speaker 3: didn't get into trouble. It was all cleared, and you
Speaker 3: know he was responsible for his own death. But you know,
Speaker 3: it's a learning experience that junior.
Speaker 1: I know what you're talking about. I've been involved in
Speaker 1: critical incidents from the operational point of view, and yeah,
Speaker 1: it's straw. Yeah we can all say and we put
Speaker 1: on the bravado, but you know, when someone's life has
Speaker 1: been taken, it's traumatic. And then as you identified you're separated,
Speaker 1: you can't talk, you feel like you've done something wrong
Speaker 1: and you're just doing your job, and yeah, this is
Speaker 1: you did exactly what you're supposed to do, and you.
Speaker 2: Do feel like a criminal.
Speaker 1: So I've had it from that side, and I've also
Speaker 1: had it from the homicide time, where I had the
Speaker 1: lead critical investigations, and it made me feel uncomfortable what
Speaker 1: we put people through. And you and I both know
Speaker 1: there needs to accountability, it needs to be that, but
Speaker 1: it just adds another layer to what's.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're sitting in that carvern here at half and
Speaker 3: start questioning, you know, have I done the right thing?
Speaker 3: You know, what actually did happen? Probably in one way,
Speaker 3: you probably little bit of shocked, you know that it's happened,
Speaker 3: big shock. We've seen those two members going down, and
Speaker 3: we all at the same thing, all three of us.
Speaker 3: You know, obviously you've got that be shot. You know, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it was pretty incident, as you know, but you question
Speaker 3: your judgment for that hour. And after I've done the
Speaker 3: right thing, I've done what my training told me to
Speaker 3: do and no question about it.
Speaker 1: And it doesn't just stop there either, because then it
Speaker 1: invariably goes to the coroner's court even if you haven't
Speaker 1: done anything wrong, quite rightly, there need to be a
Speaker 1: coernial inquest into it. But then you know, twelve months
Speaker 1: down the track or longer, you've seen in the witness
Speaker 1: box justifying what you did in a split second. Embarrasses
Speaker 1: have been paid a lot of money to criticize you
Speaker 1: for anything that came in. I had one where I
Speaker 1: did the operational orders and called the person that was
Speaker 1: to decease the target. I was in the witness box
Speaker 1: for ten minutes just being questioned about that, and so, well,
Speaker 1: wouldn't you agree that target means you were going to
Speaker 1: shoot him? I'm going no, that's what we call the
Speaker 1: person of interest that were after the target. He was
Speaker 1: a person we went into arrest. But yeah, that how
Speaker 1: a different slant can be put on it? And how
Speaker 1: do you personally come away from situations like that? How
Speaker 1: does it sit with you?
Speaker 3: Well, as you said, you go to the coran's court
Speaker 3: and media in your face, like certainly in the very
Speaker 3: early days, we can want and they're pretty good the
Speaker 3: blue around our faces and things like that. We can
Speaker 3: and you know, occasions up for shooting, if it was
Speaker 3: a very profile offender that had been shot and killed.
Speaker 3: We'd had death threats made and we'd had the basic
Speaker 3: carry a weapon, make sure we had a weapon, to
Speaker 3: have a weapon, need type we wanted. But it makes you, yeah,
Speaker 3: sometimes be disappointed. The media are really good. I've got
Speaker 3: no ins, but you know, I've been involved in another
Speaker 3: shooting in that. You know, I don't know if you're
Speaker 3: going to.
Speaker 1: That yeah, and that one, and just before you go
Speaker 1: into that one, because I do want to talk about
Speaker 1: that one as well. But the s o G or
Speaker 1: Victoria and police and I just I was looking there
Speaker 1: for the figures that in the nineties eight year period
Speaker 1: there was a lot of deaths as a result of
Speaker 1: police operations and there was a lot of scrutiny on
Speaker 1: you guys.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it was it was a bad period and
Speaker 3: I think it affected us being called out for tasks
Speaker 3: at some stages. You know. Yeah, a lot of disks
Speaker 3: in police Cassine, not all by the s o G.
Speaker 3: But we did have a few. And uh yeah at
Speaker 3: the height of that, you know, we had a double
Speaker 3: double fatality at the and like you know, didn't have
Speaker 3: mobile phones in I was told to go to the shop,
Speaker 3: bring the police association. Let him know what's going on,
Speaker 3: you know, And and I don't know who's in charge
Speaker 3: of the sociacts in that stage. I think I do,
Speaker 3: but I rang him and I said, look, mate, we're
Speaker 3: being involved in another shooting and j C. No, no, no, mate,
Speaker 3: it's worse the double. We did nothing wrong, and when
Speaker 3: it went to the coroner's court, you know, we weren't
Speaker 3: responsible for the offend of his death. But you know
Speaker 3: it's it was a bad time, bad period.
Speaker 2: Do you want to tell us about that? Tell us
Speaker 2: about that one that.
Speaker 3: Was Eton Park. It was a robbery. I can't are
Speaker 3: you very young kid involved, which is unfortunate with excus
Speaker 3: and I can't remember. Excuse was the older man. He
Speaker 3: was a crook, a good time crook. Anyway, they were
Speaker 3: going to rob a real estate agency and the week
Speaker 3: before they're going to do one, and I was in
Speaker 3: the COVID van. You know, we're going to do the arrest,
Speaker 3: and then they turned away and didn't do it. It was
Speaker 3: just another location. Anyway, next week they went through the
Speaker 3: same and we weren't too sure we knew the suburb
Speaker 3: of what they were going to actually hit. We had
Speaker 3: someone that was maybe beating a bit of information, but
Speaker 3: we realized it was going to be a real estate
Speaker 3: We got a guy there five minutes before they turned
Speaker 3: up to get people at the back to the place,
Speaker 3: and the COVID then turned up, The offenders turned up
Speaker 3: and they were called on. We were now trying to
Speaker 3: prevent the offense from mccurring, and that was probably from
Speaker 3: a previous job where things had changed our our techniques.
Speaker 3: And when they called upon, Skewers went through his gun,
Speaker 3: shotgun and the other guy, young kid, he reached into
Speaker 3: a bag and the number of shops will by resulting
Speaker 3: in their death, and you know, scrutiny. It was a
Speaker 3: young kid, a bad choice of friend, a bad thing
Speaker 3: to do, and they were going to a real estate agent.
Speaker 3: I think they're going to get thirty five cents that
Speaker 3: was in until that was basically it unfortunate, bad mistake.
Speaker 1: And these things do happen, and I don't think police
Speaker 1: are heading out there looking for that, but yeah, someone's
Speaker 1: got to respond. In fact, you've seen then there's people
Speaker 1: in it's probably the field of work that you're in
Speaker 1: where even when you're trying to mind your own business,
Speaker 1: trouble attracts that was one. You've been called out, I think,
Speaker 1: And we haven't even started talking about your bomb response.
Speaker 2: To that stuff yet, but we'll cover that later on.
Speaker 1: But I think you've been called out to a job
Speaker 1: you weren't on call, You're gone home, probably in trouble
Speaker 1: with your wife, and then you got called out to
Speaker 1: another job because you were nearby. It was it in Frankston, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that one in Frankston. Yeah, tell us that that one.
Speaker 3: That was basically it. Yeah. We talked about family sacrifice,
Speaker 3: and I made a commitment to my wife, yes I
Speaker 3: will go to your work Christmas party this year. Unfortunately
Speaker 3: on a call, but you know, it's the twenty first
Speaker 3: of December. I think it was ninety one. Nothing's going
Speaker 3: to happen anyway. I dropped her off at the party.
Speaker 3: I get out of the car near five minutes my
Speaker 3: phone goes, you know, suspect package in the city. You'll
Speaker 3: need to go. So I had all the bomb equipment,
Speaker 3: plus my personal equipment. I'm in another bomb tech there.
Speaker 3: It was a point. It was just X ray stuff
Speaker 3: like that. It was a nothing. Things. Hop back in
Speaker 3: the car and as I'm driving a weight, phone goes again, Oh,
Speaker 3: we've got another one on the outer suburbs of Melbourne.
Speaker 3: A suspicious box has been put on someone's front door.
Speaker 3: You know, so by the time you drive there, it
Speaker 3: takes an hour and a half to get there, do
Speaker 3: all your equipment, cordon's containments in place. You basically do
Speaker 3: a lot of questioning only probab with anybody, and once
Speaker 3: you've done the job, and it was an empty cardboard
Speaker 3: box by the time I get back to the Christmas party,
Speaker 3: it's now eleven thirty and I don't know how.
Speaker 2: She puts up you popular.
Speaker 3: I don't know as she put up with me. But
Speaker 3: that's what the job is, and that's a sacrifice that
Speaker 3: goes with it. So it was a very quiet drive
Speaker 3: home that night. But so one thirty my phone goes
Speaker 3: off again and I was sort of more bomb response
Speaker 3: to that shift. Anyway, you know, there's a siege started up.
Speaker 3: It's only about ten minutes away from you. We're trying
Speaker 3: to get people there now. And you get there and
Speaker 3: start getting things sorted. And this guy, he had a guard,
Speaker 3: he fight a shot, He had his wife and children
Speaker 3: in the house. By the time I got there, they
Speaker 3: had been released. So he's buying himself and my inspector
Speaker 3: and my sergeant just arrived, so there's only three of us.
Speaker 3: So I arrived there, I've got all my equipment with
Speaker 3: the know a bit disappointing because when you're first, you
Speaker 3: get to be put in the cutoff position, means you
Speaker 3: the back of the house. At the front of the house.
Speaker 3: You're not going to do the entry into the house
Speaker 3: to get the offender, whether you like or not. That's
Speaker 3: what it's all about. Being the grip. You want to
Speaker 3: go through the door. So you know, I kicked a
Speaker 3: bit of gravel, and you know, I grabbed a weapon.
Speaker 3: I had a choice of weapons, so I had about
Speaker 3: four or five different weapons in the car, that's what
Speaker 3: you had in those days. And I grabbed a short
Speaker 3: shotgun that I had a pistol grip on. It was
Speaker 3: the eight seventy pumper that already taken axle to the
Speaker 3: barrel a bit, which it couldn't those days. And I
Speaker 3: had a sling as a bicycle tued and I do
Speaker 3: use like a jump fences and just stretch the gun
Speaker 3: out to my side and one get caught on anything.
Speaker 3: A very fast response. You know, probably not the best
Speaker 3: weapon for that type of job. But you know, I
Speaker 3: had the the SGUs in it, and I became front
Speaker 3: cut off really dark street, and I wasn't too sure
Speaker 3: whether he was in one house or the one beside it.
Speaker 3: There was no dividing fence, And soon enough a dark
Speaker 3: shadow came out of one of the houses and walked
Speaker 3: down the street. Couldn't tell whether it's male or female,
Speaker 3: that's how dark it was. Was laying in a prime
Speaker 3: position beside a brick letterbox a bit of cover, and
Speaker 3: I couldn't work out. And then when we were drived,
Speaker 3: the police had parked the car in a bad position
Speaker 3: a couple of cars right in the middle of the street,
Speaker 3: and we had evacuated those police members but left their
Speaker 3: cars there. In a matter of second, this guy's just
Speaker 3: raised the gun up and shot at the cars, and
Speaker 3: just instinctively in your training, you go police, don't move.
Speaker 3: All I got was the word police out before he
Speaker 3: buyed a shot at me from about ten meters away,
Speaker 3: and actually the flash just sort of blinded me for
Speaker 3: a sec. I responded with one shot and I hit
Speaker 3: him in the witch to the ground that he took
Speaker 3: four palettes from the SG in his shoulder. Now they
Speaker 3: had a longer barrel that would have kept the grouping together,
Speaker 3: but so be it. He survived and basically I called
Speaker 3: for assistance. Most started came running up, you know, I said,
Speaker 3: I got him covered, and then we've got a uniform
Speaker 3: member to mind him, and we had to clear the house.
Speaker 3: You know, the job keeps on going on. I mean,
Speaker 3: I've just shot so one being it's clear the house
Speaker 3: and not even thinking about him is now being restrained
Speaker 3: by the uniform members because it's safe to do so.
Speaker 3: And yeah, then I get interviewed again, you know, basically
Speaker 3: weapon gets taken off me. I got it, although he
Speaker 3: wasn't going to die. He was in Frankslin hospital and
Speaker 3: said I was a terrible shot and member there and
Speaker 3: she collect smart us never heard any problems from him.
Speaker 3: A game, you know, maybe a good result, but then
Speaker 3: the media start, you know that's yeah where it is bad.
Speaker 1: Well, and I think it came out in the media
Speaker 1: that you know, a father of four or whatever, father
Speaker 1: of three have been being shot and by police and
Speaker 1: you know, the the onus.
Speaker 2: Everything's in the telling in the headline.
Speaker 3: Isn't it. Yeah, Well, we'd unfortunately had enough. It sounds bad.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately had another failed shooting that week earlier.
Speaker 2: Okay, so the media or police.
Speaker 3: Second shooting for the week s O g bold too.
Speaker 3: And yeah, the reports to father of four beach shot.
Speaker 3: And my wife was pretty annoyed by that, and she
Speaker 3: says that, well, I should have been father of four
Speaker 3: shot by father three because father four shot at farthera three.
Speaker 2: That would have been a more truthful headlineful headlight.
Speaker 3: But yeah, but good.
Speaker 1: Good on her, And yeah, I think that puts it
Speaker 1: in perspective like police can be put in a bad light,
Speaker 1: But what happens if you didn't respond or police just
Speaker 1: go off. We're not going to turn up there? What
Speaker 1: goes on there? He can walk in the streets with a.
Speaker 3: Firearms as we saw in Dear Park, you know, going
Speaker 3: to someone's house, and you know, I think probably it
Speaker 3: was remembering his bit of alcohol involved. And fortunately he survived,
Speaker 3: you know, and so to me, they had a good outcome.
Speaker 3: You know, I was questioned the next day we had
Speaker 3: our Christmas party, all the group guys, you know, naturally
Speaker 3: they want to, oh what happened? And even then I
Speaker 3: think it had only been the unit happen ninety one
Speaker 3: only been the unify a year now, I've been involved
Speaker 3: in a few shootings already, just luck of the draw.
Speaker 3: As a technical member. My way was great to be honest,
Speaker 3: be involved in these jobs. And so I've found a
Speaker 3: lot of the wives you want to sit down with me,
Speaker 3: you know what happened, just you know, with more concern,
Speaker 3: and the other guys saying what kind of weapon were
Speaker 3: you thinking of when you took it?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 3: And I explained that that, oh, you're a shit shut
Speaker 3: and all that. Anyway, that Monday, everybody's out in the
Speaker 3: range of a pistol grip shop gun, laying on the
Speaker 3: ground a prome position and realize, yeah, it is that
Speaker 3: ship weaponed to basically use them a job like that,
Speaker 3: And I learned.
Speaker 1: Well, that's you're always I would imagine with the experience
Speaker 1: you've got, you're always learning. Every job you would take
Speaker 1: away that little bit more experience. Yes, you never get
Speaker 1: to a point where you know everything. They're always learning something.
Speaker 2: John. We might take a break.
Speaker 1: People have listened to this might think, Okay, you've had
Speaker 1: your excitement for a policing. Part two might be about
Speaker 1: just settling down and putting your feet up and ticking rosters.
Speaker 1: But you clearly couldn't get enough of this tactical policing,
Speaker 1: and you found yourself in the bomb response unit diffusing bombs.
Speaker 1: And for people that don't fully appreciate that, these are
Speaker 1: the dudes that put on those funny looking bomb suits
Speaker 1: and walk off on their own to a suspicious package
Speaker 1: and find out what it is and diffuse it if necessary.
Speaker 1: So that's where John's next stage of his policing career
Speaker 1: is gone. And I just as a teaser for part
Speaker 1: two as well. You would have no idea what this
Speaker 1: lunatic does for his downtime away from the high pressure
Speaker 1: tactical policing and bomb response unit. He climbs mountains, but
Speaker 1: not just any mountain, climbs Mount Everest. So we'll talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about that in part two.
Speaker 2: If you don't mind, John.
Speaker 1: No Problematka, Let's have a break. Don't do anything stupid
Speaker 1: during the break, John, and just make sure you come
Speaker 1: back there.
Speaker 3: No problem at all. I won't go for a brikera
Speaker 3: okay
Speaker 1: Cheers, Nes need to nine