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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 2: Detective see aside of life.

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Speaker 1: The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty

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Speaker 1: four years as a cop. For twenty five of those

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Speaker 1: years I was catching killers. That's what I did for

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Speaker 1: a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer

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Speaker 1: just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into

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Speaker 1: the world in which I operated. The guests I talk

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Speaker 1: to each week have amazing stories from all sides of

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Speaker 1: the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like

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Speaker 1: the people I talk to. Some of the content and

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Speaker 1: language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes

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Speaker 1: into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now

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Speaker 1: as I take you into this world. When things gather shit,

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Speaker 1: a special operations group is who you turn to, from

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Speaker 1: bomb disposal to taking down the most dangerous violent criminals.

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Speaker 1: These are the cops who are sent in when everything

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Speaker 1: is on the line, there is no room for failure.

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Speaker 1: Retired Victorian cop John Taylor spent thirty four years working

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Speaker 1: in the SAG and the Bomb Response Unit. He's a

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Speaker 1: genuine tough guy. I had a great chat with John

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Speaker 1: about his time in the SAG and you get an

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Speaker 1: understanding of what it takes to stop violence before it explodes.

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Speaker 2: John Taylor, Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Garry, thanks for asking me. It's fantastic.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to say up front, full credit to

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Speaker 1: you with the area in which you worked in tactical

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Speaker 1: policing and the bomb response unit. That's a sharp end

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Speaker 1: of policing and you did it for a hell of

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Speaker 1: a long time. So yeah, full credit.

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Speaker 3: To be honest. It's though, really enjoyed it, Gary. You know,

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Speaker 3: I've mentioned other people in my career was nearly thirty

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Speaker 3: four years, and it's been about thirty two of those

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Speaker 3: in a special operations group or under it, and it

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Speaker 3: feels like only five years. So obviously I enjoyed my work.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's good to see someone come out after what

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Speaker 1: thirty four years in the cops and come out with

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Speaker 1: a smile on your face and still intact physically, mentally

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Speaker 1: and emotionally.

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Speaker 3: Wellfem I argue about that one, but yeah, yeah. Originally

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Speaker 3: I did ten years as a graphic artist screenprint. When

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Speaker 3: I left school, you know, I tried to get into

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Speaker 3: the police force and finally got there, and my dream

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Speaker 3: came true and then yeah, moved on to a specialist area.

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Speaker 3: And I have no regrets, you know, seeing things like

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Speaker 3: you yourself, you know that other people fortunately don't see.

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Speaker 3: But that's part of the job. That's what I accepted

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Speaker 3: and did my duty.

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Speaker 1: Well, I reading your book through Fear and Fire. In

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Speaker 1: one of the pictures, you're saying, I can't believe I

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Speaker 1: get paid for doing this, and that that was the

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Speaker 1: attitude I had in the cops. There was some adventures

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Speaker 1: and some things that I got to experience and what

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Speaker 1: they also pay you like, I'd pay to do some

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Speaker 1: of the experiences myself.

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Speaker 3: So it was a common thing we used to talk about.

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Speaker 3: You know, get hanging under a helicopter had been extracted

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Speaker 3: from a drug crop, and you're thinking, you know, there's

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Speaker 3: a a couple of dolls with the all cover, I'm

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Speaker 3: under a rape, I'm looking the forest below me, and

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Speaker 3: that it was like a joy ride, you know, like

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Speaker 3: we'd say that the guys whoere everyone's saying, I can't

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Speaker 3: believe we're getting paid to do this stuff. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's you know, there's dangerous. Maybe that goes with it,

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Speaker 3: but you know you can't get the smile of your base.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you know you've been in some circumstances like that.

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Speaker 3: It's not just unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: Most definitely, I get what you're talking about. The other thing,

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Speaker 1: in the policing world, the perception of tactical police is like,

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Speaker 1: you guys are robots, and yeah, you get called out

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Speaker 1: when shit hits a fan and to siegers, arresting high

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Speaker 1: risk offenders, all sorts of things when the other police

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Speaker 1: haven't got the skills training to respond to the situations.

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Speaker 1: I think we should dispel that because in my dealings

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Speaker 1: with tactical police and my involvement in the tactical police,

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Speaker 1: it's very much there's a human side of it, isn't

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Speaker 1: it that people don't understand it.

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Speaker 3: Look, we're normal police officers, and we've just been trained

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Speaker 3: a bit more in specialist areas, and we have better equipment,

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Speaker 3: and as you mentioned, we as a tactical police officers

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Speaker 3: you can't afford to fail. Now we are the last resort.

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Speaker 3: We can't say this is too hard and move aside

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Speaker 3: and let someone else go in. So, you know, and

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Speaker 3: we have the human side, As you said, we're just

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Speaker 3: normal people. We see a lot of things that We're

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Speaker 3: glad other people don't see. We dealt with a lot

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Speaker 3: of people that you wouldn't believe their beliefs and what

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Speaker 3: they've done. You know, it's surprising and quite disturbing in

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Speaker 3: some ways, and we have feelings like everybody else. When

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Speaker 3: it comes down to it.

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Speaker 1: You touch on the point there and I very much

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Speaker 1: felt it in when I do this a comment to

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Speaker 1: the tou When you're the team, you're the team there.

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Speaker 1: Whatever happens, there's no one else to respond except you, guys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's basically and as you know that, we'll

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Speaker 3: have a plan A, that we already have a Plan

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Speaker 3: B and a Plan C, and then we'll limnify as

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Speaker 3: a Plan D if it's required. The there's always forward motion,

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Speaker 3: there's no backward steps when it comes down to it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I spent most of my career in criminal investigations detectives,

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Speaker 1: but I also spent a lot in the tactical side

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Speaker 1: of policing as well. There's a friendly rivalry and a

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Speaker 1: bit of a bit of perception that the tactical guys

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Speaker 1: that are knuckle draggers. I think that was a term

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Speaker 1: we use in New South Wales and the tactical blokes

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Speaker 1: that you're the soft pen pushes in regards to the detectives.

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Speaker 1: But I just want to say this and tell me

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Speaker 1: if you think I'm on the right track. I spent

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Speaker 1: many a time with the tactical police, and I think

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Speaker 1: the training, the professionalism is not fully appreciated. The training

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Speaker 1: is intense because if you make a mistake, the consequences

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Speaker 1: are devastating.

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Speaker 2: But some of the.

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Speaker 1: Briefings and debriefings I've been to with tactical police head

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Speaker 1: and shoulders above, briefings with detectives, would you agree on

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Speaker 1: that that without the shipbagging detectives because I'll have to

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Speaker 1: defend them. But there is a there is a professionalism

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Speaker 1: that needs to come with tactical policing.

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Speaker 3: Definitely, and like we had that rivalry with the textis

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Speaker 3: but it's done with great respect, you know, and any operation,

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Speaker 3: some of these operations can go for four or five months,

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Speaker 3: and those detectives are doing the hard hours, everything all

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Speaker 3: lining it up for us to do that tactical arrest

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Speaker 3: at the end. They're the ones that actually do the

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Speaker 3: hard work that goes with it. So we find like tactically,

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Speaker 3: you know, with briefings and things like that. They've got

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Speaker 3: to be done correct. It's not all walking into room

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Speaker 3: and having a two minute briefing. We'll do reconnaissance on

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Speaker 3: the information we get from the investigators, and those reconnaissance

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Speaker 3: would be looking at the offender's address or if they're

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Speaker 3: going to do an armed robbery, looking the places are

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Speaker 3: going to rob So lots of hours go into it,

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Speaker 3: and it's got to be very succinct and very well planned,

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Speaker 3: and then it has to go before our senior sergeant,

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Speaker 3: and then it has to go before our inspector, and then

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Speaker 3: we'll do a massive briefing that might go for an hour.

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Speaker 3: You're told what you'll be doing, but you've got to

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Speaker 3: be able to improvise if it doesn't go that way,

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Speaker 3: and it has to be proved by our bosses who

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Speaker 3: are happy with the plan that we put forward, and

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Speaker 3: then we go ahead and do the job. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: we like to term knuckle draggers and stuff like that,

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Speaker 3: but we know it's done with a sense of humor

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Speaker 3: from the investigators and like we've drunk a lot of

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Speaker 3: beers with them and we've had a lot of fun

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Speaker 3: and maybe occasionally you can't do with these as we

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Speaker 3: kid that the few and you had a bit of

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Speaker 3: fun with them, and that they're done the same with us.

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Speaker 3: So you know, boys will be boys, girls will be girls.

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Speaker 3: You know, they're just going to had that sense of humor,

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Speaker 3: but they've got to have the specialism. When it comes

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Speaker 3: down to a job, all fun stops and the planning

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Speaker 3: goes ahead.

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Speaker 1: And I also think, and this is a misconception, and

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Speaker 1: I think I've been fortunate because I've seen both sides

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Speaker 1: of it too. Some of the most intellectual stimulating conversations

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Speaker 1: I've had. But its sitting in the back of the

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Speaker 1: dove or the van, waiting to arrest the fen that

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Speaker 1: might turn up in the next state hours and the

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Speaker 1: conversations you have, Like people think it's one dimensional tactical policing,

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Speaker 1: but there's a lot of people that are deep thinkers

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Speaker 1: and the philosophers and all sorts of things I've found

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Speaker 1: in tactical police.

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Speaker 3: I think the best thing I enjoyed about my job

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Speaker 3: is a team environment, very team orientated and like like

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Speaker 3: a family. Basically, they're watching your back. You know, you

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Speaker 3: can do like a forced entry into our house where

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Speaker 3: you might be number one going through that door, knowing

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Speaker 3: that there's an armed defender, I don't have to turn

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Speaker 3: around and know I know they're behind me. I don't

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Speaker 3: have to look make sure they're there. And that's the

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Speaker 3: way it is. So you had the conversations in a

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Speaker 3: car or a location before job's happening, and then basically

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Speaker 3: when it starts happening, it's all very serious from there onwards.

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Speaker 3: But I suppose a bit of our therapy. Yeah, some

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Speaker 3: people have problems occasionally, good that they trust the people

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Speaker 3: that discuss it with. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I think in what we're playing around with,

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Speaker 1: the thing that always struck me as a professionalism of

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Speaker 1: tactical police in that if they do stuff up, the

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Speaker 1: consequences are devastating, like a high risk, and they're going

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Speaker 1: to be scrutinized no matter what happens. And it's getting worse.

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Speaker 1: When I say getting worse, there's more scrutiny now in

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Speaker 1: that when you used to first I would imagine when

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Speaker 1: you started, when you used to first do operations, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't all filmed and recorded. Now you basically everything's been recorded.

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Speaker 1: If a mistake was made, you could be pulled aside

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Speaker 1: and say, hey, John, slow it down a little bit

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Speaker 1: or whatever now it gets critiqued in virtual real time.

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Speaker 3: Debriefs were very thorough even in the early days and

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Speaker 3: probably showing our age. I was amazed when I got

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Speaker 3: to the unit. I've got a page that used to

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Speaker 3: go bit the red light. And then I had to

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Speaker 3: find a phone somewhere. I might be driving in the

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Speaker 3: car and pulling too a petrol station. I need to

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Speaker 3: use your phone. And from the pager, we moved to

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Speaker 3: a pager. They had a phone number that could bring

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Speaker 3: and then pages. They really improved, and they had messages,

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Speaker 3: you address, you had the guys. So with technology has improved,

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Speaker 3: with body cams on police now and CCTV and everybody's

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Speaker 3: got a mobile. And not that we ever did the

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Speaker 3: wrong thing, but it's another thing you have to think

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Speaker 3: about these days. Yeah, certainly the generations have changed.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'll put my hand up.

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Speaker 1: I do remember the pager and the first time it

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Speaker 1: went off, I had it on my belt and I

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Speaker 1: thought that I had something wrong with me. I didn't

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Speaker 1: couldn't work out what it was, and then I remembered

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Speaker 1: I had the pager. What steered you towards going into

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Speaker 1: the tactical side of the policing. What was it you

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Speaker 1: joined the cops. Did you always have the dream of

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Speaker 1: going into tactical policing when you join the cops or.

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Speaker 3: I think this will make some of my mates like unbelievable.

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Speaker 3: But when you leave the academy you're probachary councilors, you know,

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Speaker 3: and you get put got it, put in communications and

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Speaker 3: seeing you can apply for a vacancy somewhere and be

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Speaker 3: so junior in those days, basically the senior number got

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Speaker 3: the position. So after I think, I like the six

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Speaker 3: different police stations to get out on the road, and

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Speaker 3: then they set me up. I think the sergeants at

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Speaker 3: the communications how you should do in the SOG. They

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Speaker 3: like running in bitness and probably as a kid had

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Speaker 3: small man syndrome. I'm not particularly tall or big. And

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Speaker 3: once I applied, then I started to realize what it

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Speaker 3: was all about. And I spoke just stubbornness, right, There's

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Speaker 3: no way I was going to quit, you know, And yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's basically knew nothing about SOG originally. When I put

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Speaker 3: the application in all and used it, I thought it

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Speaker 3: was something like search and rescue and yeah, but I

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Speaker 3: certainly found my part in the police force, in the

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Speaker 3: organization and I'm glad I made that decision. I suffered,

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Speaker 3: but I'm glad I made that decision.

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Speaker 1: And check the fine print when you applied. They don't

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Speaker 1: just hand out the pair of black overalls and a

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Speaker 1: big gun and tell you to go and the rest

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Speaker 1: of these offenders and.

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Speaker 2: Resolve this siege.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about the training and the whole process, because

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Speaker 1: it was eighty seven, eighty eight, seat where you.

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Speaker 3: Eighty nine I got into the group. Eighty seven I

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Speaker 3: joined the police force. Eighty nine. I got into the

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Speaker 3: group the end of eighty nine, And like I was

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Speaker 3: at communications, and that comes out in the gazette. You know,

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Speaker 3: you want to be an applicant in the SOG and

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Speaker 3: I put my form in. Then you do a medical

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Speaker 3: and all that kind of things that goes through it,

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Speaker 3: and then you do a basic PT assessment at the

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Speaker 3: academy and I think we had over seventy seven applicants

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Speaker 3: that year, and then you lose a few along the way,

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Speaker 3: and then you have a major half day selection process

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Speaker 3: and that starts off. They give you a lot of verbalization,

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Speaker 3: but then you do a three point two k run

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Speaker 3: with a bulletproof best on carrying the shopguard. You got

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Speaker 3: a thirty eight revolver on your hip, and you've got

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Speaker 3: a helmet on and you're in GP boots. You're running

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Speaker 3: around an oval and from there you return the weapons

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Speaker 3: and give them back their ballistic best and all that,

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Speaker 3: and you're in a boilersuit. You had to wear a

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Speaker 3: boiler suit when I was overalls. And then you'd run

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Speaker 3: down to the eraet swim across the era and then

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Speaker 3: up the other side. It was about fifty meter sort

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Speaker 3: of climb, not quite vertical, but a big rope was there.

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Speaker 3: Once you got up the top, you do a kilometer

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Speaker 3: run up there around a loop and then back down

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Speaker 3: the rope back across the era, and then you do

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Speaker 3: one hundred meter a man carry on one of the

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Speaker 3: sog guys and they're all big boys, and you know,

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Speaker 3: I would have been probably seventy kilos ringing wet as

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Speaker 3: it was. And then you do that twice more. And

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Speaker 3: it was a colder state for Melbourne that year, and

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Speaker 3: so a couple were taken off to hyperthermia to the

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Speaker 3: hospital and I can hear the SG just call him

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Speaker 3: a week. We had better idea now about yeah, but

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Speaker 3: you can imagine what it was like in those early days,

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Speaker 3: and then.

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Speaker 4: We do a whole push uppes, all those exercises that

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Speaker 4: are bad your body the way they were done, bunny

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Speaker 4: pops and things like that, and by the end of

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Speaker 4: it you're down to about thirty people.

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Speaker 3: And then a couple of weeks later you go before

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Speaker 3: a board and we started our course with twenty two

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Speaker 3: people and it was a really small classroom. You'd the

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Speaker 3: shoulder and the shoulder in the classroom, and on that

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Speaker 3: way you'd learned about weapons techniques, climbing, driving, reconnaissance, you know,

285
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Speaker 3: mobile Lindo steps and the list just went on gas

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Speaker 3: and by the end of it, twelve weeks later, it's

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Speaker 3: all of us in the classroom and just your attrition

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Speaker 3: rate is unbelievable, and we had improved, Like I think

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Speaker 3: that I was part of that. I became a fitness

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Speaker 3: instructor where we started to manage people's injuries. But in

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Speaker 3: those days, I think it's competition and see how many

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Speaker 3: people that can get rid of on a course.

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Speaker 1: It's bad, bad, but I look back and it just

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Speaker 1: puts a smile on the face. It brings back so

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Speaker 1: many memories. I think I did the course for it

296
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Speaker 1: was a six week course for two RG Tactical Response

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Speaker 1: Group in it would have been eighty seven eighty eight.

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Speaker 1: And I look at the policing now and before I

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Speaker 1: retired in the police, and I've got some people, you know,

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Speaker 1: complaining about workplace issues or HR issues, and I just

301
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Speaker 1: think what went down there? And you know, you talk

302
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Speaker 1: about doing all the wrong exercises like the log run

303
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Speaker 1: down virtually down cliff faces.

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Speaker 2: It was just chaotic.

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Speaker 1: And I forget how many people are on our course,

306
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Speaker 1: but we I know I ended up in hospital at

307
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Speaker 1: one stage, and I think probably three quarters of the

308
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Speaker 1: course ended up in.

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Speaker 2: Hospital at some stage.

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Speaker 1: But there was no consideration that they were doing anything wrong.

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Speaker 1: It was just partner That's what it was in those days.

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Speaker 1: And like even we had I suppose on the twelve

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Speaker 1: week course, worst day physically in a way was the

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Speaker 1: gas day.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, been.

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Speaker 3: Putting in a little room and a gas canis so

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Speaker 3: that should clear a house is basically clearing a toilet

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Speaker 3: that we're in. You know, you're going there with your

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Speaker 3: mask and that's a take off your mask and you're

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Speaker 3: holding your breath and they want to what's your name?

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Speaker 3: Trying and say your name without breathing knowing very soon

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Speaker 3: that you're going to have to take that gulp of

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Speaker 3: their like cus gas and sea gas. We had to experience.

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Speaker 3: It's like a cocktail, experimenting the whole lot. Yeah, you

325
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Speaker 3: had not running out your nose. It was really hit

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Speaker 3: in the ground. I think it was disgusting, but better

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Speaker 3: done these days. It was a learning period and as

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Speaker 3: I said, things have improved. A lot of guys been

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Speaker 3: to university, have to plombers in fitness and stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: So in the newer courses used to managing Ridge, it

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Speaker 3: wasn't about getting rid of someone unless we thought they

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Speaker 3: were unsuitable. But you know, on the the eleventh week

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Speaker 3: of my course, we did a reconnaissance. You know, they

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Speaker 3: give you an address and outside of Melbourne or something

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Speaker 3: that you've been doing the course all day, extremely tired,

336
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Speaker 3: you have to go in through reconnaissance. You know, what's

337
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Speaker 3: the back door look like, what's the front door look like?

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Speaker 3: Where would you form up your people? How many people

339
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Speaker 3: would you need? Which ways to the door open? And

340
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Speaker 3: I twisted my ankle really badly in a divot. Then

341
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Speaker 3: the next on the twelfth week, we had a twenty

342
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Speaker 3: k run, so again with the boiler suit. The shotgun

343
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Speaker 3: doesn't have a sling. You got to carry it and

344
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,040
Speaker 3: had a thirty eight pistol on the hip and one

345
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Speaker 3: lead of water bottle and that we had to run

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Speaker 3: as only four of us left anyway, And as about

347
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Speaker 3: a year later when I did something, tome angler had

348
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Speaker 3: it xtraight and I had a broken bone in it,

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Speaker 3: so it actually had broken the angle on the eleventh week.

350
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Speaker 3: But I knew it was bad. But if I showed that,

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Speaker 3: it was a sign of weakness and I would have

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Speaker 3: been kicked off. Of course, we lost someone in the

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Speaker 3: eleventh week, you know.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, but you look back and I again, I

355
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Speaker 1: look back with a smile on my face that you

356
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Speaker 1: get through something like that, and you look back with

357
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Speaker 1: fond memories because you appreciate how tough it was. The

358
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Speaker 1: gas we went in the did the gas run, and

359
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Speaker 1: that into that room with the gas lead off. They

360
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Speaker 1: took us from memory. We were doing leopard crawls over

361
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Speaker 1: gravel roads and all that beforehand, working up a sweat.

362
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Speaker 1: We had no idea that the gas would attack or

363
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Speaker 1: the moisture on your body.

364
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Speaker 3: So all places.

365
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Speaker 2: Worked us up into a lather.

366
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Speaker 1: And there was a dirty puddle of water, and we thought, oh,

367
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Speaker 1: good idea, we will leopard crawl through that and cool

368
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Speaker 1: down a bit.

369
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Speaker 2: Then they take you into the gas room.

370
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Speaker 1: They've warned you that some people might panic, some people

371
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,399
Speaker 1: might piss themselves, some people who knows what.

372
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Speaker 2: Reaction you goin to get.

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Speaker 1: So you're whipped up into a frenzy and then you

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Speaker 1: go in there and they rip your mask off and

375
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Speaker 1: exactly what you were saying, what's your name?

376
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Speaker 2: Where do you work? And you just you come out

377
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Speaker 2: and just yeah, I say it.

378
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Speaker 1: Now. I'm a little bit older and wiser, but if

379
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Speaker 1: someone said, you know, even if I wasn't being paid

380
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,600
Speaker 1: to do, They're like, oh, yeah, give it the game. See

381
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,359
Speaker 1: what it's like. And that just hits you. When people

382
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Speaker 1: ask me what it feels like, I say, imagine if

383
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Speaker 1: someone poured pepper into your eyes and down your throat.

384
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Speaker 2: That's sort of you can.

385
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Speaker 3: Look back and laugh. Then they video it the old

386
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,520
Speaker 3: VHS recorded like eighty nine, as you imagine, and yeah,

387
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,440
Speaker 3: I do have a copy of it. And the looks

388
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Speaker 3: on some of the faces that boys are going at

389
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Speaker 3: the rims like what's this going to do to us?

390
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,480
Speaker 3: And like you're all over the same bucket. It's not

391
00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,720
Speaker 3: coming out. Yeah, is not too good, but that's what

392
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,800
Speaker 3: it was. You know, no regrets, no regrets.

393
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,480
Speaker 1: What characteristics you think get people through and what are

394
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,639
Speaker 1: the type of things you're looking for in people to

395
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,240
Speaker 1: get them to be a good operator in the tactical

396
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,480
Speaker 1: sphere of policing, Yeah.

397
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Speaker 3: Very much. You know, ran a lot of courses involved

398
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,240
Speaker 3: in a lot of courses. Certainly the selection phase I

399
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 3: sort of a lot of time for me. I'm looking

400
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 3: for the gray man, you know, that does everything that's required,

401
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 3: but when he speaks, people listen to him and there's

402
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,760
Speaker 3: no need to speak. He's a person that doesn't talk

403
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,160
Speaker 3: so very much. We're looking for those that can act

404
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,280
Speaker 3: as an individual. Also, it's important, more important to be

405
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:41,080
Speaker 3: a team member.

406
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:42,119
Speaker 1: You know.

407
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 3: I've been in situations where I've had no one around me.

408
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 3: I've had to react by myself, and that's what we're

409
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,639
Speaker 3: looking for. Someone that can think themselves hopefully make the

410
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,960
Speaker 3: right decision. They don't want show ponies and things like that.

411
00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 3: And like in the early days, yes, it was people

412
00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,639
Speaker 3: about getting into the soog and wearing what they call

413
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 3: the black pajamas and things like that, and they had

414
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,280
Speaker 3: the wrong mentality for that. Probably fortunate for me, I

415
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,760
Speaker 3: was only very junior confortable when I put in for it.

416
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,640
Speaker 3: No one knew anything about me. They thought I've sent

417
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,359
Speaker 3: it from a procreationary period. But you had detectives that

418
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,480
Speaker 3: have been in the police officer for a large minute

419
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,280
Speaker 3: time and other senior members, and they had reputations, some

420
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,040
Speaker 3: were good, some were bad, so you can basically you

421
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 3: know it's about they would targeted. Yeah, before it started,

422
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,000
Speaker 3: you know, and like I was a little gray man,

423
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 3: it's fantastic twenty two people. I was like, I heard

424
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 3: of sheep uppy, the one in the middle. No one

425
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 3: would see it, and then they started dropping off. Damn

426
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,000
Speaker 3: there was nowhere to ye now. So yeah, yeah, but

427
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:39,720
Speaker 3: I don't think there caused any pride.

428
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 1: I like the term great man, and that's advice I

429
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,760
Speaker 1: give people because you're on a course like that, in

430
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 1: a tactical course where they're putting.

431
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:48,520
Speaker 2: The pressure on.

432
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,440
Speaker 1: Invariably the person that shines in the first day or

433
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,719
Speaker 1: two shines very bright, but then you see the flaws

434
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 1: in the character that come up. And that's that quiet

435
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 1: person seeing in the background, just getting things done, not

436
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 1: make much of a fuss, and it seems to get.

437
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 3: There and then only've got a good personality and that's

438
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 3: what you're looking for, you know. And as I say it,

439
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 3: if they start talking near that he's talking, I'm listening

440
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:10,720
Speaker 3: for a reason.

441
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I take on board what you say that

442
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,160
Speaker 1: you were young going into the SAJ the selection course here,

443
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 1: I did three tactical policings through my career TRG State

444
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,400
Speaker 1: Protection Support Unit, then close personal protection, and I got

445
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,880
Speaker 1: to say it was me that was changing as I'm

446
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 1: going through when the young bloke you have fresh just

447
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 1: in the cops, this is great. I'm getting paid to

448
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 1: do this where they're absolutely torturing us. I'm thinking, this

449
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 1: is fantastic, And there was no I enjoyed every moment

450
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,360
Speaker 1: of it. Next course, I do. I'm a little bit old,

451
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 1: a little bit wise, So why am I getting it?

452
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,120
Speaker 1: Why are you yelling at me? Why am I getting humiliated?

453
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 1: Why am I putting through that? And so as you

454
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 1: get older, I think you get set in your ways

455
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 1: a little bit, and so you can mold the younger version.

456
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, very easy.

457
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 3: The surprising you mentioned about, Yeah, I was junior as

458
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 3: a police officer. But when I going to the group

459
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 3: of twenty nine. I was said by a couple of

460
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 3: just an old man, what are you doing here? You know,

461
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 3: twenty nine, you know, and cause a lot of them

462
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 3: were about twenty five twenty six. Couple got into the

463
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 3: group and they're about twenty one twenty two, you know.

464
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 3: But even my first day, you know, it started with

465
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 3: one of them saying, oh, you know, one of the

466
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 3: senior guys saying, you know, we had to clean our boots.

467
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 3: And I said to him, mate, don't hold your breast

468
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 3: because I hadn't twelve weeks again do an elak areat

469
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,679
Speaker 3: There's no way that I was going to basically grubble

470
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 3: to anybody. So that was my introduction. And then they'd

471
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 3: one of them any fun and started rumor that I

472
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 3: come from the priesthood, and he thought it was so funny,

473
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 3: but he had them all petrified, like what if we

474
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 3: do something wrong. It's just come from the priesthood.

475
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,160
Speaker 2: And can we trust him.

476
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 3: I didn't get to do an entry for three months,

477
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 3: you know, I was and then someone mentioned it to me,

478
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 3: like what are you talking about? And they all just

479
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 3: burst out laughing. You know, it's part of getting into

480
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 3: the family. It was there joke and we did other

481
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,719
Speaker 3: jokes and other people, but boy, I couldn't understand. I

482
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 3: was always cut up. They weren't touched trusting me to

483
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 3: do the entry team. And when I finally started the

484
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 3: interesting you start at the back. You might be the

485
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 3: eighth person in the house, and then finally you start

486
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,159
Speaker 3: moving forward. You want to be that number one go

487
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 3: through the door to show that, hey, I've got it.

488
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 3: You know. It was humorous to them, but boys frustrating

489
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 3: beneath that I've got nothing wrong.

490
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 2: Pretty soon, yeah, but they would look at you differently

491
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 2: in that environment.

492
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: But that's a practical joke side of things, and that

493
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: that that breaks the pressure a lot of times, because

494
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 1: that's what I've always found. There's always someone shitstirr and

495
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: someone having a bit of fun, and it is a

496
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 1: good way of diffusing tense situation.

497
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 3: It is you know, you're sitting in the car waiting

498
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 3: for an armed robbery to appen. There's for you in

499
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 3: a car. You might have been sitting there for six

500
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 3: or seven hours and someone drops off to sleep. There's

501
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 3: always someone awaken. Next minute, someone's pouring a canteen on

502
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 3: your brain or something like that. The rest of the

503
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,120
Speaker 3: shift you sit in a wet seed, you know, but yeah,

504
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 3: you get bored. But as you said, it's human, hure,

505
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 3: a bit of fun. That's how we basically deal with

506
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 3: some of the precious situations by being by being human.

507
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I picked up in your book to talking

508
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: about Yeah, there's a lot of alpha males in a

509
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: unit like that, And I think you were describing working

510
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: out in the gym, which is quite funny. I've seen

511
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 1: that too, like who's the fittest, who's the toughest, and

512
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: people pushing each other. So a lot, a lot of

513
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 1: interesting dynamics.

514
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're considering I was an old man in some

515
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 3: said I was basically on Yeah, one seventy two in heights,

516
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 3: so it was fairly small for the unit. But they

517
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 3: say the realized that throw the little guys through those

518
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 3: little windows, you know when you do an entry. So

519
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 3: there were smaller guys coming into the unit. We weren't

520
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 3: all sixteen over one hundred kilos. A lot of the guys.

521
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 3: Big thing was the over one hundred kilos. You know,

522
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 3: I have lots of meals, go to the gym, and

523
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 3: you know, I was a runner and I had good

524
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 3: makes that were runners in the unit. Do you know,

525
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 3: you're all you didn't have any clicks. They make sure

526
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 3: that never happened. But you know, you had guys who

527
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 3: go off running the other guys who go to the gym.

528
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 3: Sort of based it out for a small blake. It

529
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 3: was interesting, but you know you've got to learn. You

530
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 3: got to earn your reputation. You know, it doesn't mean

531
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 3: about being tough with just about being that gray man

532
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 3: doing every task it's given to you, doing the shitty tasks,

533
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 3: you know, whether it's administration or something like that, or

534
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 3: just going and washing the vehicles and doing it properly,

535
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 3: you know, with the unit, a tactical unit, as you know,

536
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 3: you may be in told to one mistake, but don't

537
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 3: ever make the same mistake twice, you know. It's yeah,

538
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 3: that's the bad.

539
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: That was the pressure of a pressure of units like that. That, yeah,

540
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 1: and quite rightly so, because you know, you make a

541
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 1: mistake and it can be a.

542
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: Critical mistake, literally a critical mistake. And yeah, so.

543
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,479
Speaker 1: Everyone's got to be on their on their game. And

544
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 1: that's why I set up front total respect for you

545
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: doing it for as long as long as you did.

546
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,199
Speaker 1: And we've got blokes in New South Wales that have

547
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: basically made their career staying in the unit, and I

548
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: just respect them because it's real pressure as a detective.

549
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: We make mistakes, you get criticized in court. You know,

550
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: occasionally it escalates in the critical things. But make a mistake,

551
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: you get criticized in court. But the high stakes in

552
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: tactical police.

553
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's and I love to emphasize, especially to your viewers,

554
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 3: like we talk about tactical members and all that, and

555
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 3: it must be very dangerous within a group like the SOG.

556
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 3: Basically we'red my the uniform members and the detectives, the

557
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 3: playing closed members. They're the first ones that gave was

558
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 3: seen that as it's occurring. Generally when we arrive, cordons

559
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 3: and containments are in place, and basically we're there to

560
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 3: resolve the situation. So people might say told me is dangerous.

561
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 3: We always believe the uniform and those detectives out there,

562
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 3: they're the front line troops are the ones that are

563
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 3: really putting it on the line, which I always try

564
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 3: and emphasize even in the book.

565
00:26:58,600 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: You know, I think it's.

566
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: Important because the specialist police get recognition in different ways

567
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: and the uniforms just sort of blending they're the police,

568
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: but yeah, one hundred percent, they're the ones that just

569
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: don't know what they're walking into when they knock on

570
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: the door. And you know, we're seeing across the country

571
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: a lot of tragedies that have happened with police just

572
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: going about their jobs and not really realizing that it's

573
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: attacktical situation they're walking into.

574
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 2: It's cost them their lives. So how did you feel

575
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 2: when you got through?

576
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 3: Really, basically we had done the twenty k run the

577
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 3: day before that was on the Thursday Friday. We have

578
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 3: a falling out and I basically really passed out. I

579
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 3: could see I was going white. I think the ankle

580
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 3: had it broken. Ankle really came down to it and

581
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 3: they during the run, you have like a middle clip

582
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 3: holding your canteen, an army canteen, and that worked its

583
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 3: way across my back from one way or the other,

584
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 3: so all the skin was rubbed off my back. It

585
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: just totally exhausted, and you know, best thing, I was

586
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 3: looking forward to four weeks leap which I had owing

587
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 3: and it was a good relief. They presented me with

588
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 3: a dog collar and they lead because they reckon I'd

589
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 3: do it, which is. It was an honor that I

590
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,959
Speaker 3: would do anything during selection phase. When I got into graping,

591
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 3: they were up at maun A rapidly and that we

592
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 3: got working up one night. There's only about six of

593
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 3: us left then and hooded put in the back of

594
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 3: the car, driven sometime over a rough road and then

595
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 3: basically we're walked blindfolded to an edge. They had a

596
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 3: rope tighter around my legs and they said jump. I

597
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 3: just went jump and they grabbed me and they went

598
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 3: right off at me, you idiot. That's the hood off

599
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 3: them on the edge edge of the cliff.

600
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: You know.

601
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 3: It was doing our qualification ground nighttime repel A's sale

602
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 3: and I'm they said jump. I was going to jump,

603
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 3: and that's why they gave me a dog collar and

604
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 3: a lead.

605
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 2: They said, that's that's a fair spray. I would imagine

606
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: there'd be a mixture of and then looking.

607
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 3: At you with you idiot, Yeah, maybe I was just

608
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 3: so I can't give you a shit anyway.

609
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: You know, if if it exhausted you that much, who

610
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: care I go off a cliff. So explain to our

611
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: listeners what the role of SOG is and what the

612
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: history of it is, How it came into play.

613
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 3: Well, this is basically it was formed in ninety seventy

614
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 3: seven and it was after all tactically brutiably formed around

615
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 3: that period after an incident in Sydney in Chogham, Commonwealth

616
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 3: heads of State where bomb went off and I think

617
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 3: it killed three people that were actually picking up garbage

618
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 3: at the time, and then it was needed that everybody

619
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 3: knew the tactical group, so that basically that was how

620
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 3: it was formed. In seventy seven, I was in Intake fourteen,

621
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 3: so I've been thirteen thirteen groups before me. So basically

622
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 3: that was how it formed. And in the early days

623
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 3: in that year was there they had to scrape for

624
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 3: all the equipment. They looked originally when the SOOG started

625
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 3: they looked for military people, so and then they also

626
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 3: had the bomb response side that they had to form

627
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 3: and all that. So it's starting from scratch would have

628
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:12,959
Speaker 3: been very early in those days.

629
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: And what type of jobs do they respond to?

630
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 3: The cant of terrorists basically, so it's sort of domestic

631
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 3: violence in layman terms. Basically people that are going to

632
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 3: rob banks, violent domestics where there's a hostage siege situation.

633
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 3: Even people that might be looking at self harming and

634
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 3: they might be in a location that normal police can't

635
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 3: get them to get to them. Drug crops. A lot

636
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 3: of in the early days, we did a lot of

637
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 3: drug props and now a lot of things are droponic

638
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 3: and stuff like that. So the big crops of ten

639
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 3: million dollars out in the bush now basically gone. So

640
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 3: you go out in the bush for maybe six to

641
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 3: seven days and just sit off a crop waiting for

642
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 3: the offenders to come in. And certainly in the early

643
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 3: days are robberies which aren't of frequent now as you know,

644
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 3: you know, high risk warrants and things like that. Also,

645
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 3: the ESG needs to do witness protection, you know, when

646
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 3: we had the Wall Street murders and things like that,

647
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 3: a couple of those witnesses I'd spend seven or eight

648
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 3: days with them on a farm somewhere in Victoria, an interstate,

649
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 3: so we had to carry guns and generally we'd have

650
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 3: basic another group look from during the day and I'll

651
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 3: just do patrols at night basically by myself. I had

652
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 3: mbgs and things like that, and a lot of preparation

653
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 3: for other jobs, just observation posts set up. You know

654
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 3: that the techniques couldn't get into and we had do

655
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 3: hobs on a premises or a rural property and things

656
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 3: like that. Helping people install listening devices have the appropriate

657
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 3: warrants as you can imagine, but you know, we basically

658
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 3: enter a house and help with fair installation, just cover

659
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 3: them that they wouldn't get compromised. I remember one we

660
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 3: did and were told that the alleged offenders were actually

661
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 3: in the house and I had night vision on. They

662
00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 3: picked the locks and we'd just do a walk through

663
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 3: the house. Sure, and I come in the main bedroom

664
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 3: and the husband and wife were in bed. He's snoring away,

665
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 3: and like you know, there's like little hearts puppet, we

666
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 3: need to get out. Don't squeak the floorboards, you know,

667
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 3: Like you have jobs like that where, yeah, you get

668
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 3: a bit of a fright, maybe bad intel by surveillance

669
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: units those days they're actually home when they shouldn't have be.

670
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, well the type of things you describe, I've seen

671
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: all that, and then you just don't know what's going

672
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: to happen when you're going in there. And you know,

673
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: I've had you guys out when we're looking to lock

674
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: someone up and in the bush keeping surveillance virtually just

675
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: in the middle of the bush for a couple of

676
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: days before we're ready to raid the place, waiting for

677
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: the people to come come home. So interesting, the interesting

678
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: challenges and a lot of diversity.

679
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, yeah, I had one in a town like

680
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 3: we do in every reconnaissance, and it was a semi

681
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 3: rual property. It was quite large, no the houses nearby,

682
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 3: and he had the habit if he's very paranoid, you

683
00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 3: come out on his front porch and open up with

684
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 3: a gun. I just fired away. Anyway, it was decided

685
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 3: that we had to do a reconnaissance on the premises,

686
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 3: so I was with a very new member. It just

687
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 3: completed the course. He wasn't a priest, so he was

688
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 3: fine to come with me. But we went on a

689
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 3: navy probably had lots of bush and shrub and it

690
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 3: was a really still night. We got to the edge

691
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 3: of the property and the main team two guys going

692
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 3: to walk up the center of his property, which is

693
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 3: really clean of all scrub trees, large trees, depressions, but

694
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 3: very clean property. And they walked up and they did

695
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 3: the reconnaissance and then they walked back out. We covered them,

696
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 3: had a night vision on and then the sergeant who

697
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: was observing this with dye vision goggles across the road

698
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 3: and had a sniper there. So most WI came out

699
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 3: the same way. It's going to be quiet, you know,

700
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,239
Speaker 3: like instead of going through the bushes again. So we

701
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 3: got onto the guy's property. We about ten meters from

702
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 3: his front door, I suppose by time we came out,

703
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 3: and his dog started up, and he just came out

704
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 3: in that porch in a second and just opened up,

705
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 3: and we'd already hit the ground in a slight depression

706
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 3: and he was just firing away. But are we getting

707
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 3: calms that he wasn't actually sort of shooting it maybe

708
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 3: over the top of the risk, but he couldn't pick us.

709
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 3: And the dogs came flying down past us, and you know,

710
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 3: they missed us way about it needed the dogs and anyway,

711
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 3: then he called them back into stoppage, which is basically

712
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 3: something was wrong for his gun. Now the cartage got

713
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 3: caught and our sniper who had maxic height which is

714
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 3: like night vision and all that, so he's got a stoppage. Anyway,

715
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 3: the dogs came back and I had a night vision

716
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 3: oguss the green glow their eyes, and I had the

717
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 3: gas out. Don't want to hurt a dog, but you

718
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 3: had that anger in your body and that sort of

719
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 3: knowing that dogs can pick that up. And as the

720
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 3: dogs walk past, he's just growling at me keept on walking.

721
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 3: Didn't when to have anything to do with me. And

722
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 3: the new guy beside me, this is his first three

723
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 3: connaissance out there. All he said to me is like

724
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 3: I love this shit, you know, and good friends with

725
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 3: him still, just that was the member we wanted, you know,

726
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 3: and that anyway, it took us about half an hour

727
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 3: to battle up his property. He was trying to find us.

728
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 3: We had depressions in the ground that were using the

729
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 3: shadows and things like that. He probably didn't want to

730
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: find us, but he was looking for us. And yeah,

731
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 3: as you just don't know whey circumstances are going to go.

732
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned dogs, now, you mentioned in your book,

733
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: and I don't think there's many tactical police that haven't

734
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: had some dog experiences. Terrifying at the time, funny after

735
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: if you escape. I remember doing an early morning raid,

736
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: climbing a fence, jumping over the fence and just hearing

737
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: this growling behind me in a dirty rotten rock wheeler

738
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: with all the dribble coming down and I had to spray.

739
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: I sprayed it.

740
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: It just shook its head and just looked cranky, going

741
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 1: what the fuck have you just done? But I had

742
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: another one with a Doberman and a German shepherd a

743
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 1: drug plantation and it wasn't a tactical it was the tectives.

744
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: We have just gone out there to have a little

745
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: There was a report of it and we found that

746
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: and the offender let the dogs off, and the dogs

747
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: attacked a young detective. He's wrestling with the dogs where

748
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: about one hundred meters away and he's in the wrestle

749
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: with the dogs. Shot his fingers off like the dogs

750
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: had him pinned down. So that was a chaotic, chaotic

751
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 1: mess with the with the dogs. But yeah, there they

752
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: had another layer.

753
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 2: To yeah to the operation.

754
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, And a lot of people wouldn't realize when you're

755
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 3: doing briefing and information that's coming in and get briefing

756
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 3: this this person's got killer dogs and they'll they'll take

757
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 3: you out the size of an elephant. That we never

758
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 3: really had any issues with any dogs. They picked up

759
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 3: the aggression in you. If you've got that aggression task focused,

760
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 3: you know, We've had dogs just open their bows as

761
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 3: he runs through the house, which is you know a

762
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 3: mens Yeah. And basically all the guys, you know, all

763
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 3: these big tarp s o g guys, they love animals,

764
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:00,439
Speaker 3: you know, they don't want to hurd a dog. Comes

765
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 3: down to it. There was you know, we're doing a

766
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 3: reconnaissance and it was on hydro products in a big

767
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 3: shed on a rural property and the only entrance was

768
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 3: the front door, and they had a cyclone fence around it,

769
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 3: a large cyclone fence, and they had a dog there

770
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 3: and like a a up start barking every time we

771
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 3: made it and approached to do a reconnaissance. We had

772
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 3: surveillance here. They would cameras in there, listening devices. And

773
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 3: so the first night we agitated that dog, I just

774
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 3: kept on walking up and then we disappeared. The owners

775
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 3: would come out from fifty meters away from their house

776
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 3: and see what was going on, and the barking got

777
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 3: less and less and less. Anyway, we came back the

778
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 3: next night, but I came back a whole lot of

779
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 3: dog biscuits. I was laid up with dog biscuits and

780
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 3: probably took me an hour and a half before I

781
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 3: got to the cage. We had to back off a

782
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 3: few times. He only came out again, and he was

783
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 3: getting sick of the dog too, you know, barking all

784
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 3: the time. Finally got that first dog biscuit in his mouth,

785
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 3: and then I got the second Monday, and then I

786
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 3: was scratching you through the wire, and I thought, oh well,

787
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 3: I got to start climbing this fence. And I climbed

788
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 3: the fence and give him another bit biskit, and then

789
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,280
Speaker 3: the rest of the boys walk up and he starts

790
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 3: growning it, and give him another biscuit and exit their

791
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 3: old climb out of fence. They get into the shed

792
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 3: and by this time the dogs starting to make so

793
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 3: much noise that it's purring, it's starting to it's just

794
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 3: loving you. I'm running your stomach. It's got its legs

795
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 3: in the air. And they do their reconnaissance and basically

796
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 3: we get out, but they told me keep it down,

797
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 3: keep the dog down. We're all happy noises in the end,

798
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 3: And the next night we did the actual the raid

799
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 3: on the premises. I made sure I did the shed

800
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 3: because I didn't want anything happening to the dog. Dog

801
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 3: didn't bark when we are walked up.

802
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, you'll you'll mate the dog.

803
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: Have you ever come up against geese which sounds strange,

804
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: but done a couple of places where the Druggis would

805
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: have geese a warning sign if the cops or other

806
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: criminals are coming up to their premises, be hard to

807
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: keep quiet.

808
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got a hell of the fright one night

809
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 3: with Coach.

810
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know rural.

811
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 3: It wasn't rual. It was actually Saburnie in Melbourne. We

812
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 3: do reconnaissance on a on a place and that over

813
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 3: the neighbors Spence and it was one of those nights

814
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,399
Speaker 3: full murder and all that kind of stuff. We put

815
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 3: our heads over Spence to get over it and like

816
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 3: these two goats just bleted, you know, they gave this

817
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 3: and it was so still. It was like I was

818
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 3: hit by the overpressure of that noise, both of the

819
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 3: sort of landing back on the gravel, just holding our hearts.

820
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 3: What the hell was that? You know?

821
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all the different experiences. These are the ones

822
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: that have come through, and most jobs come through and

823
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 1: people are unscathed. There's one in your one in your book,

824
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: and I think it was fairly early in your career

825
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 1: where you've gone into arrest someone that was Anthony White

826
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: had broken into a house.

827
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:45,919
Speaker 2: Do you want to tell us? Tell us that that.

828
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 3: Story fairly early in my career in the in the group,

829
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 3: pretty sad story in the way this gentleman came down.

830
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 3: He had mental health issues which were suddenly given understanding

831
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 3: by then. But there are a lot of X fact

832
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 3: on this job. That he came down from South Australia,

833
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 3: just pulled up in Deer Park, a suburb in Melbourne.

834
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 3: Out of Melbourne. I had a twenty two rifle with him,

835
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 3: telescopic sight and just started firing shots down the streets,

836
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 3: lamp posts, at science, at people and naturally everybody's running everywhere.

837
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,879
Speaker 3: And then he basically tried to get in the front

838
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 3: door of the house. Couldn't do that. Was an only couple.

839
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 3: I think they were in their seventies. Shouldn't say that

840
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 3: now they were out and a look at my age.

841
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 3: But then he smashed the front roune through window, got

842
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 3: through there and they ran down the hallway, got into

843
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 3: a back bedroom. They barricaded themselves. He fired a shot

844
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 3: which hit the lady and then he forced his way

845
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 3: in there and the husband managed to convince him to

846
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 3: let him go, and he half carried his wife out

847
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 3: of the house and as I going and fired another

848
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 3: shot and became a siege situation. You know, fairly earlier

849
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 3: I m in the groups three or four months by then.

850
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 3: There was a five man team, very cold, wet, miserable afternoon.

851
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 3: We came through the back of the property. It was

852
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 3: clay building up on our boots and we're basically out

853
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 3: there negotiators. We're trying to make contact. We could hear

854
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 3: a child's voice at one stage, hear a woman's voice

855
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 3: at one stage. So we were too short where there

856
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 3: are hostages or whatever was going inside. And finally our

857
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 3: bosses gave us the go ahead, you need to go

858
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 3: in there do our hostage rescue. As we entered through

859
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,839
Speaker 3: the back door, went into a laundry. Then we turned left,

860
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 3: if imagined, into the kitchen and where two of our

861
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 3: members were confronted by him. He fired a shot. They

862
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 3: returned fire, and both our members went down, and the

863
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 3: membering that the three of us behind and all of

864
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 3: us thought the same thing. Those two members have been shot.

865
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 3: They went down on their backs. Things were happening very fast.

866
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 3: We couldn't fire shots because who would have been flying

867
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 3: over the top of their heads, and one member managed

868
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 3: to return fire. I ducked out through the back door

869
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 3: and came to the kitchen sitting hiding behind the fridge,

870
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 3: so I let go with the shot. Then was at

871
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,879
Speaker 3: a rem int an eight seventy shotgun had sg's in it,

872
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,320
Speaker 3: an SG carpage for the viewers holds about nine pellets.

873
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 3: They're about the size of the thirty eighth round. So

874
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 3: the other member was beside me. He buyed two rounds

875
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 3: and skipped those off the fridge. Obviously he could see

876
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 3: the same threat. We then ran back inside, jumped over

877
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 3: those members that were trying to get up, and basically

878
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 3: arrested the offender. But he actually died at the scene

879
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 3: when he came down to it, so it was mental

880
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 3: health issues. Obviously he was putting these voices on to

881
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 3: give us the impression that there are hostages and things

882
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 3: like that. So one of those unusual circumstances, and fortunately

883
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:50,359
Speaker 3: the woman survived her injury. But you know, shocking state

884
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 3: affairs for them. Although there's no humor in this, but

885
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 3: because I'd shopped the fridge, so someone else had too.

886
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 3: Was a calbinador fridge. So my nickname for the next

887
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 3: six months was Calvin.

888
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 2: Life can be so cruel. Come Atkelvin, it can be

889
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 2: so cruel.

890
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 3: You do the right thing and surprising and like, yeah,

891
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 3: we had you know, rumors are starting to come out

892
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 3: that we'd buy through a frosted window. Just luck that

893
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 3: we get the fridge and like the video. And then

894
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 3: the worst part is, after an instant like that, your

895
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 3: views might realize basically we're under investigation. Naturally, it has

896
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 3: to be done right. We're separated, our weapons have passed over,

897
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 3: and we're not allowed to talk to each other. We're

898
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 3: placing individual cars. The homicide squad turns up and actually

899
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 3: we're sitting there for an hour and a half not

900
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 3: talking to anybody, can't contact their families and things like that,

901
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 3: and you feel like a criminal, especially as a junior member.

902
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 3: You know, where my buddy is the more experience, what

903
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 3: should we be doing here? And then we're just basically

904
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 3: told go home and be interviewed. The next day we

905
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 3: turned up and we'd be told we'll do a video

906
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 3: re enactment, which is really a no note, you know,

907
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 3: because everybody proceed these things differently, and your viewers would

908
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 3: know that, and so I do my reenactment. The other

909
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 3: guys do their reenactment. How boys hadn't been shot. But

910
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 3: when they discharged their weapons originally because of the clay

911
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 3: you're online. Oh, the recall from their weapons, basically they

912
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 3: slipped was like ice in the kitchen and that's why

913
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 3: they went down. And the offender's weapon at the end,

914
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 3: when it was checked, it had one of our rounds

915
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 3: going through the telescopic sight. So basically it means that

916
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 3: it was pointing at you when it was fired. And

917
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 3: that's not a wall actually in the office, the SAG

918
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 3: office at the moment. But yeah, we get interviewed, you

919
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 3: feel like a criminal, and yeah, we have five different

920
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 3: stories that have been video read acted. You know, we

921
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 3: didn't get into trouble. It was all cleared, and you

922
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 3: know he was responsible for his own death. But you know,

923
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 3: it's a learning experience that junior.

924
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: I know what you're talking about. I've been involved in

925
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: critical incidents from the operational point of view, and yeah,

926
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 1: it's straw. Yeah we can all say and we put

927
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: on the bravado, but you know, when someone's life has

928
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 1: been taken, it's traumatic. And then as you identified you're separated,

929
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 1: you can't talk, you feel like you've done something wrong

930
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 1: and you're just doing your job, and yeah, this is

931
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 1: you did exactly what you're supposed to do, and you.

932
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 2: Do feel like a criminal.

933
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: So I've had it from that side, and I've also

934
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: had it from the homicide time, where I had the

935
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: lead critical investigations, and it made me feel uncomfortable what

936
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 1: we put people through. And you and I both know

937
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: there needs to accountability, it needs to be that, but

938
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: it just adds another layer to what's.

939
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're sitting in that carvern here at half and

940
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 3: start questioning, you know, have I done the right thing?

941
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 3: You know, what actually did happen? Probably in one way,

942
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 3: you probably little bit of shocked, you know that it's happened,

943
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 3: big shock. We've seen those two members going down, and

944
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 3: we all at the same thing, all three of us.

945
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,359
Speaker 3: You know, obviously you've got that be shot. You know, Yeah,

946
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,240
Speaker 3: it was pretty incident, as you know, but you question

947
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 3: your judgment for that hour. And after I've done the

948
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 3: right thing, I've done what my training told me to

949
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 3: do and no question about it.

950
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: And it doesn't just stop there either, because then it

951
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 1: invariably goes to the coroner's court even if you haven't

952
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: done anything wrong, quite rightly, there need to be a

953
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: coernial inquest into it. But then you know, twelve months

954
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: down the track or longer, you've seen in the witness

955
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: box justifying what you did in a split second. Embarrasses

956
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: have been paid a lot of money to criticize you

957
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: for anything that came in. I had one where I

958
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: did the operational orders and called the person that was

959
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 1: to decease the target. I was in the witness box

960
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: for ten minutes just being questioned about that, and so, well,

961
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 1: wouldn't you agree that target means you were going to

962
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: shoot him? I'm going no, that's what we call the

963
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: person of interest that were after the target. He was

964
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: a person we went into arrest. But yeah, that how

965
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: a different slant can be put on it? And how

966
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: do you personally come away from situations like that? How

967
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: does it sit with you?

968
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 3: Well, as you said, you go to the coran's court

969
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 3: and media in your face, like certainly in the very

970
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 3: early days, we can want and they're pretty good the

971
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 3: blue around our faces and things like that. We can

972
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 3: and you know, occasions up for shooting, if it was

973
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 3: a very profile offender that had been shot and killed.

974
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 3: We'd had death threats made and we'd had the basic

975
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 3: carry a weapon, make sure we had a weapon, to

976
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 3: have a weapon, need type we wanted. But it makes you, yeah,

977
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 3: sometimes be disappointed. The media are really good. I've got

978
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 3: no ins, but you know, I've been involved in another

979
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 3: shooting in that. You know, I don't know if you're

980
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 3: going to.

981
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 1: That yeah, and that one, and just before you go

982
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: into that one, because I do want to talk about

983
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: that one as well. But the s o G or

984
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 1: Victoria and police and I just I was looking there

985
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: for the figures that in the nineties eight year period

986
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 1: there was a lot of deaths as a result of

987
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 1: police operations and there was a lot of scrutiny on

988
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:02,760
Speaker 1: you guys.

989
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 3: So yeah, it was it was a bad period and

990
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 3: I think it affected us being called out for tasks

991
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 3: at some stages. You know. Yeah, a lot of disks

992
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 3: in police Cassine, not all by the s o G.

993
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 3: But we did have a few. And uh yeah at

994
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 3: the height of that, you know, we had a double

995
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 3: double fatality at the and like you know, didn't have

996
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 3: mobile phones in I was told to go to the shop,

997
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 3: bring the police association. Let him know what's going on,

998
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 3: you know, And and I don't know who's in charge

999
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 3: of the sociacts in that stage. I think I do,

1000
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 3: but I rang him and I said, look, mate, we're

1001
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 3: being involved in another shooting and j C. No, no, no, mate,

1002
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 3: it's worse the double. We did nothing wrong, and when

1003
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 3: it went to the coroner's court, you know, we weren't

1004
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 3: responsible for the offend of his death. But you know

1005
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,240
Speaker 3: it's it was a bad time, bad period.

1006
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 2: Do you want to tell us about that? Tell us

1007
00:48:58,320 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 2: about that one that.

1008
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 3: Was Eton Park. It was a robbery. I can't are

1009
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 3: you very young kid involved, which is unfortunate with excus

1010
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 3: and I can't remember. Excuse was the older man. He

1011
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 3: was a crook, a good time crook. Anyway, they were

1012
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 3: going to rob a real estate agency and the week

1013
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 3: before they're going to do one, and I was in

1014
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,279
Speaker 3: the COVID van. You know, we're going to do the arrest,

1015
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 3: and then they turned away and didn't do it. It was

1016
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 3: just another location. Anyway, next week they went through the

1017
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,800
Speaker 3: same and we weren't too sure we knew the suburb

1018
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 3: of what they were going to actually hit. We had

1019
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 3: someone that was maybe beating a bit of information, but

1020
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 3: we realized it was going to be a real estate

1021
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 3: We got a guy there five minutes before they turned

1022
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 3: up to get people at the back to the place,

1023
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 3: and the COVID then turned up, The offenders turned up

1024
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 3: and they were called on. We were now trying to

1025
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 3: prevent the offense from mccurring, and that was probably from

1026
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 3: a previous job where things had changed our our techniques.

1027
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 3: And when they called upon, Skewers went through his gun,

1028
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 3: shotgun and the other guy, young kid, he reached into

1029
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 3: a bag and the number of shops will by resulting

1030
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 3: in their death, and you know, scrutiny. It was a

1031
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 3: young kid, a bad choice of friend, a bad thing

1032
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,240
Speaker 3: to do, and they were going to a real estate agent.

1033
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 3: I think they're going to get thirty five cents that

1034
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,719
Speaker 3: was in until that was basically it unfortunate, bad mistake.

1035
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: And these things do happen, and I don't think police

1036
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 1: are heading out there looking for that, but yeah, someone's

1037
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 1: got to respond. In fact, you've seen then there's people

1038
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 1: in it's probably the field of work that you're in

1039
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 1: where even when you're trying to mind your own business,

1040
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 1: trouble attracts that was one. You've been called out, I think,

1041
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 1: And we haven't even started talking about your bomb response.

1042
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 2: To that stuff yet, but we'll cover that later on.

1043
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: But I think you've been called out to a job

1044
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,760
Speaker 1: you weren't on call, You're gone home, probably in trouble

1045
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 1: with your wife, and then you got called out to

1046
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: another job because you were nearby. It was it in Frankston, Yeah,

1047
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: that one in Frankston. Yeah, tell us that that one.

1048
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,399
Speaker 3: That was basically it. Yeah. We talked about family sacrifice,

1049
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 3: and I made a commitment to my wife, yes I

1050
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,879
Speaker 3: will go to your work Christmas party this year. Unfortunately

1051
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,439
Speaker 3: on a call, but you know, it's the twenty first

1052
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 3: of December. I think it was ninety one. Nothing's going

1053
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,280
Speaker 3: to happen anyway. I dropped her off at the party.

1054
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 3: I get out of the car near five minutes my

1055
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,359
Speaker 3: phone goes, you know, suspect package in the city. You'll

1056
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 3: need to go. So I had all the bomb equipment,

1057
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 3: plus my personal equipment. I'm in another bomb tech there.

1058
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 3: It was a point. It was just X ray stuff

1059
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 3: like that. It was a nothing. Things. Hop back in

1060
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 3: the car and as I'm driving a weight, phone goes again, Oh,

1061
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 3: we've got another one on the outer suburbs of Melbourne.

1062
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 3: A suspicious box has been put on someone's front door.

1063
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 3: You know, so by the time you drive there, it

1064
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 3: takes an hour and a half to get there, do

1065
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 3: all your equipment, cordon's containments in place. You basically do

1066
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 3: a lot of questioning only probab with anybody, and once

1067
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 3: you've done the job, and it was an empty cardboard

1068
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 3: box by the time I get back to the Christmas party,

1069
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 3: it's now eleven thirty and I don't know how.

1070
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 2: She puts up you popular.

1071
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 3: I don't know as she put up with me. But

1072
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 3: that's what the job is, and that's a sacrifice that

1073
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 3: goes with it. So it was a very quiet drive

1074
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 3: home that night. But so one thirty my phone goes

1075
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,320
Speaker 3: off again and I was sort of more bomb response

1076
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 3: to that shift. Anyway, you know, there's a siege started up.

1077
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 3: It's only about ten minutes away from you. We're trying

1078
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 3: to get people there now. And you get there and

1079
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 3: start getting things sorted. And this guy, he had a guard,

1080
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 3: he fight a shot, He had his wife and children

1081
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 3: in the house. By the time I got there, they

1082
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 3: had been released. So he's buying himself and my inspector

1083
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 3: and my sergeant just arrived, so there's only three of us.

1084
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 3: So I arrived there, I've got all my equipment with

1085
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 3: the know a bit disappointing because when you're first, you

1086
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 3: get to be put in the cutoff position, means you

1087
00:52:58,239 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 3: the back of the house. At the front of the house.

1088
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 3: You're not going to do the entry into the house

1089
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 3: to get the offender, whether you like or not. That's

1090
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 3: what it's all about. Being the grip. You want to

1091
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 3: go through the door. So you know, I kicked a

1092
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,720
Speaker 3: bit of gravel, and you know, I grabbed a weapon.

1093
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 3: I had a choice of weapons, so I had about

1094
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 3: four or five different weapons in the car, that's what

1095
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 3: you had in those days. And I grabbed a short

1096
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 3: shotgun that I had a pistol grip on. It was

1097
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 3: the eight seventy pumper that already taken axle to the

1098
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 3: barrel a bit, which it couldn't those days. And I

1099
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 3: had a sling as a bicycle tued and I do

1100
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 3: use like a jump fences and just stretch the gun

1101
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 3: out to my side and one get caught on anything.

1102
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,879
Speaker 3: A very fast response. You know, probably not the best

1103
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 3: weapon for that type of job. But you know, I

1104
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:44,000
Speaker 3: had the the SGUs in it, and I became front

1105
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:48,359
Speaker 3: cut off really dark street, and I wasn't too sure

1106
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 3: whether he was in one house or the one beside it.

1107
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 3: There was no dividing fence, And soon enough a dark

1108
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 3: shadow came out of one of the houses and walked

1109
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 3: down the street. Couldn't tell whether it's male or female,

1110
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:00,839
Speaker 3: that's how dark it was. Was laying in a prime

1111
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 3: position beside a brick letterbox a bit of cover, and

1112
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 3: I couldn't work out. And then when we were drived,

1113
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 3: the police had parked the car in a bad position

1114
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:11,240
Speaker 3: a couple of cars right in the middle of the street,

1115
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 3: and we had evacuated those police members but left their

1116
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 3: cars there. In a matter of second, this guy's just

1117
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 3: raised the gun up and shot at the cars, and

1118
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 3: just instinctively in your training, you go police, don't move.

1119
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 3: All I got was the word police out before he

1120
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 3: buyed a shot at me from about ten meters away,

1121
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 3: and actually the flash just sort of blinded me for

1122
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 3: a sec. I responded with one shot and I hit

1123
00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 3: him in the witch to the ground that he took

1124
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 3: four palettes from the SG in his shoulder. Now they

1125
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:43,840
Speaker 3: had a longer barrel that would have kept the grouping together,

1126
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 3: but so be it. He survived and basically I called

1127
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 3: for assistance. Most started came running up, you know, I said,

1128
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 3: I got him covered, and then we've got a uniform

1129
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 3: member to mind him, and we had to clear the house.

1130
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 3: You know, the job keeps on going on. I mean,

1131
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,359
Speaker 3: I've just shot so one being it's clear the house

1132
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 3: and not even thinking about him is now being restrained

1133
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 3: by the uniform members because it's safe to do so.

1134
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 3: And yeah, then I get interviewed again, you know, basically

1135
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 3: weapon gets taken off me. I got it, although he

1136
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 3: wasn't going to die. He was in Frankslin hospital and

1137
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 3: said I was a terrible shot and member there and

1138
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 3: she collect smart us never heard any problems from him.

1139
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 3: A game, you know, maybe a good result, but then

1140
00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 3: the media start, you know that's yeah where it is bad.

1141
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:35,760
Speaker 1: Well, and I think it came out in the media

1142
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 1: that you know, a father of four or whatever, father

1143
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: of three have been being shot and by police and

1144
00:55:43,200 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: you know, the the onus.

1145
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,280
Speaker 2: Everything's in the telling in the headline.

1146
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 3: Isn't it. Yeah, Well, we'd unfortunately had enough. It sounds bad.

1147
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 3: Unfortunately had another failed shooting that week earlier.

1148
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 2: Okay, so the media or police.

1149
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:00,560
Speaker 3: Second shooting for the week s O g bold too.

1150
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 3: And yeah, the reports to father of four beach shot.

1151
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 3: And my wife was pretty annoyed by that, and she

1152
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 3: says that, well, I should have been father of four

1153
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 3: shot by father three because father four shot at farthera three.

1154
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 2: That would have been a more truthful headlineful headlight.

1155
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:19,720
Speaker 3: But yeah, but good.

1156
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 1: Good on her, And yeah, I think that puts it

1157
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: in perspective like police can be put in a bad light,

1158
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 1: But what happens if you didn't respond or police just

1159
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 1: go off. We're not going to turn up there? What

1160
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 1: goes on there? He can walk in the streets with a.

1161
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 3: Firearms as we saw in Dear Park, you know, going

1162
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 3: to someone's house, and you know, I think probably it

1163
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 3: was remembering his bit of alcohol involved. And fortunately he survived,

1164
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 3: you know, and so to me, they had a good outcome.

1165
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 3: You know, I was questioned the next day we had

1166
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 3: our Christmas party, all the group guys, you know, naturally

1167
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 3: they want to, oh what happened? And even then I

1168
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 3: think it had only been the unit happen ninety one

1169
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:59,720
Speaker 3: only been the unify a year now, I've been involved

1170
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 3: in a few shootings already, just luck of the draw.

1171
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:06,360
Speaker 3: As a technical member. My way was great to be honest,

1172
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 3: be involved in these jobs. And so I've found a

1173
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 3: lot of the wives you want to sit down with me,

1174
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 3: you know what happened, just you know, with more concern,

1175
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 3: and the other guys saying what kind of weapon were

1176
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 3: you thinking of when you took it?

1177
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 2: You know?

1178
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 3: And I explained that that, oh, you're a shit shut

1179
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 3: and all that. Anyway, that Monday, everybody's out in the

1180
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 3: range of a pistol grip shop gun, laying on the

1181
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 3: ground a prome position and realize, yeah, it is that

1182
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 3: ship weaponed to basically use them a job like that,

1183
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 3: And I learned.

1184
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 1: Well, that's you're always I would imagine with the experience

1185
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,439
Speaker 1: you've got, you're always learning. Every job you would take

1186
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 1: away that little bit more experience. Yes, you never get

1187
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: to a point where you know everything. They're always learning something.

1188
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 2: John. We might take a break.

1189
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: People have listened to this might think, Okay, you've had

1190
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: your excitement for a policing. Part two might be about

1191
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: just settling down and putting your feet up and ticking rosters.

1192
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 1: But you clearly couldn't get enough of this tactical policing,

1193
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 1: and you found yourself in the bomb response unit diffusing bombs.

1194
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: And for people that don't fully appreciate that, these are

1195
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 1: the dudes that put on those funny looking bomb suits

1196
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 1: and walk off on their own to a suspicious package

1197
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 1: and find out what it is and diffuse it if necessary.

1198
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 1: So that's where John's next stage of his policing career

1199
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 1: is gone. And I just as a teaser for part

1200
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 1: two as well. You would have no idea what this

1201
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: lunatic does for his downtime away from the high pressure

1202
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 1: tactical policing and bomb response unit. He climbs mountains, but

1203
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: not just any mountain, climbs Mount Everest. So we'll talk

1204
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 1: a little bit about that in part two.

1205
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 2: If you don't mind, John.

1206
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 1: No Problematka, Let's have a break. Don't do anything stupid

1207
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 1: during the break, John, and just make sure you come

1208
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 1: back there.

1209
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 3: No problem at all. I won't go for a brikera

1210
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 3: okay

1211
00:58:56,200 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 1: Cheers, Nes need to nine