WEBVTT - Why Labor’s last ‘freedom fighters’ are all old men 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:10.600 From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:14.239 No matter your politics, there's never been a politician who 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.640 can wield an insult quite like former Labor Prime Minister 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:18.400 Paul Keating. 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:21.720 I asked the Prime Minister, if you are so confident 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:25.279 about your view a fight back, why won't you call. 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:25.880 An early election? 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:31.680 Might because I want to do more slowly, I want 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:32.280 to do your. 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:37.120 Keating set the standard for eviscerating his opponents. He once 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:41.000 called the coalition front bench scumbags, said John Howard was 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.159 getting so wound up he needed a valium, and described 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:47.440 Peter Costello as having all the attributes of a dog 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:48.639 except loyalty. 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:52.479 You all sat there last night while I roomed you out, 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:56.680 point by point, dreamed you out. You were setting up there, 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:00.760 both ties, the steam coming out. 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:04.200 But lately Keating and a growing band of old time 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.839 labor men are directing their barbs at their own privately 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:14.000 and publicly criticizing the Albanese government on their policies and priorities. Today, 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:18.000 special correspondent for the Saturday Paper Jason Cottsircus on the 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:21.560 party elders problems with Labor and how their critiques are 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:41.800 landing it's Friday, October eighteen, so Jason, I thought we 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:45.840 could begin by talking about this group of Labor Party 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:51.520 elders who seem to be loosely banding together with some 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:55.120 shared grapes about the current Labor Party. Tell me who 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:55.560 are they? 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:59.720 So these are all veterans ruby from the Hook Keating 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:04.480 guments from the nineteen eighties and the nineteen nineties, and 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:07.000 the core of this group is the former Prime Minister 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:11.200 Paul Keating, John Faulkner, who was the Leader of the 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.680 Senate for the Labor Party, and Barry Jones, who was 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:18.880 of course a very prominent minister in the Hawk government. 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:23.160 And Bob Carr, the former New South Wales premier. He 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:25.960 grew up in the Labor movement with Paul Keating and 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:29.079 John Faulkner, so he's very much a part of that 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:31.920 old guard as well. And what I've been told is 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:36.200 that that core group getting together for lunch in Sydney 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.520 once a month, and it seems that a regular topic 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:43.680 for discussion is how disappointed they are in the Albanese 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:46.960 government and the lack of progress the government is making 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.639 on issues that are dear to them environmental policy. This 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:56.280 proposed reform to gambling advertising. They also have in common 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:00.320 the fact that they don't like the orchest policy. Seems 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:03.919 to have been a feature of discussion among these kind 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.880 of these labor wise men who feel that, you know, 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:12.960 Australia shouldn't be tying itself so closely to the United States. 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:16.720 And I think in poor Keating's case, he's particularly concerned 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.400 that Australia seems to be giving up its sovereignty. 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:24.080 Okay, so we've got these quote wise men of Labor 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:29.440 Party elders critiquing Australia's relationship with the US, critiquing the 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.400 orchard steel Can you tell me a bit more about 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:36.200 the tenor and tone of those critiques and where they're 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:36.840 being made. 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.920 Well, I think they're being made in private and in public. 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:42.280 If we start with poor Keating, you know, he's not 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:43.880 afraid to do a lot of media. 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.320 You know, the idea that we need American submarine to 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:51.200 protect us, you know three, if we buy three or 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.200 at three, three are going to protect us from the 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:57.720 might of China. Really, I mean the rubbish of it, 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:01.160 the rubbish. So for another word, let me say this, 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:04.920 China has not threatened us in despite five years of. 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:12.440 This in private, he's been really getting quite personal with 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.400 some of his criticisms of the Prime Minister at the Albanzi, 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:19.640 the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Defense Richard Miles, 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:24.720 and Foreign Minister Penny Wong, who Paul Keating collectively has 0:04:24.760 --> 0:04:27.760 referred to in private as this kind of lix bittle 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:29.000 kind of trio. 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:29.760 You know. 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.520 Lix Biddle is a favorite Keating put down for anyone 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:36.480 who shows the slightest hint of deference towards the US 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:37.880 or the United Kingdom. 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.960 I referred elsewhere to Richard Miles Defense mister Richard Miles's 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.400 love of the United States as being so dewey iders 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:46.479 to defy parody. 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:50.840 And then there's Gareth Evans, the former foreign Minister he 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:54.640 also got stuck into the Albanesi government has been too cautious, 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:57.400 defensive and where's avoiding? 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.680 And the Prime Minister himself, Albert not only has never 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:04.120 given much attention to the complexities of defense and foreign policy, 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:08.720 very unusual for the labor left, but he does remain 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:13.880 politically deeply risk averse, occupied more than anything else, with 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:22.080 not being portrayed domestically as weak, facilating. 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:24.000 Another great labor figure from the nineteen eighties. Bill Kealty 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:26.719 he was never in federal politics, but he was of 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:31.200 course running the ACTU right throughout the eighties and the nineties. 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.280 And he's been saying a similar thing in a speech 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.800 I think he gave last month to a business for him. 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.239 He said, there's a lot of good talkers in the government, 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.160 but they don't do anything. You know, You've also got 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:46.360 people like Stephen conrayd Allen Griffin, who are both ministers 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:49.560 in the rud and Gillard governments. They're also on the 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:55.560 sidelines trying to exert influence around preselections and policy decisions 0:05:55.600 --> 0:06:01.200 where they can. So it's quite a busy of offstage 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:06.799 collection of important labor figures there who are all chipping 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:11.000 in with their own interpretations of what the government's doing, 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.280 and that they haven't been afraid to express their disappointment. 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.760 Okay, So how is this criticism or I suppose it 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.919 could also be construed as meddling. How is it landing? 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.240 I can't really imagine that alban Ezy and his senior 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.240 ministers would appreciate the feedback. 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:32.760 Well, I think they're really starting to get pretty annoyed 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:36.440 about it. Labor insiders, you know, both in Canberra and 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:41.080 around the country quite frankly hate this, this constant carping 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:45.039 from the sidelines. It's an annoying distraction for them and 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.800 I think they just wish it would go away. And 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:50.560 you know, one Labor veteran told me, and this was 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:54.000 a person who was very close to the Hawk and 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:57.000 Kenny governments, said to me, you know what really struck 0:06:57.000 --> 0:06:59.120 me about the Hook and getting governments in particularly the 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:03.120 Hawk period, was that there were no Whitland government ministers 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:07.800 wandering around shitbagging the Prime Minister, his ministers or their priorities. 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.400 And he also felt that it's one thing to say 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.160 the government is on the wrong track, but to descend 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:17.480 into the highly personal attacks that we are seeing is 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:23.280 not at all helpful. Another member of Labour's front bench expressed, 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:26.200 you know, the concern to me that it was nostalgia 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:29.520 that was making them forget the pressures of leadership and 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:34.440 just how hard it is to govern. And another Labor veteran, 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:38.600 Flatter rejected this complaint that the Albanese government has shirked 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:42.800 any and all major reform and he said that that 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:47.000 was just a kind of willful blindness. Of course, some 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:49.600 members of the current government. You know, they are also 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:52.800 to some of the criticisms that Paul Caating has been making. 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:57.000 You know, one current minister in particular told me that 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:01.000 the problem is that Labor is becoming a top down, 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:05.680 invitation only society. And as this person said to me, 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.280 we're timid and we're woke and that's a pretty facked 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:11.680 position to be. And according to that minister. 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:15.560 After the break our, one Labor minister says, the entire 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:25.880 party structure is broken. So, Jason, you've got a current 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.120 Labor minister on record saying that the Labor Party is 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:34.720 essentially becoming more elite, more tightly controlled, both timid and 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:37.400 woke as they put it. So tell me more about 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.240 what this person says about what Labour's problem is and 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:41.600 how it got to this situation. 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:44.120 Well, I think what's happened here If we look at 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:48.040 the last fifty years of labor history, we had the 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:52.520 very undisciplined Whitlam government and in reaction to that, the 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:56.280 Hawk and Keating governments became much more disciplined. You know, 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:59.120 ever since then that the Labor Party has become more 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:03.440 centralized and the National executive has acquired more power, the 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.720 power to overrule the branches the power to overrule the 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:09.720 rank and file, and they did that for reasons of 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:14.800 political expediency, because they think, well, the more professional we are, 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:18.439 the less chance there is that will pre select candidates 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:21.560 that do something stupid. But I guess the downside of 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.959 that is that, as this minister said to me last week, 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:28.320 the truth is that the party doesn't really exist at 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:32.360 the moment. It's either old people or ministerial staffers or 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.600 the odd union secretary. No one young and fresh is 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.400 actually joining the party anymore. There isn't that same diversity 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:44.720 of background that other labor governments have had. The party 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:48.600 really is sick at the moment. And according to this person, 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:51.760 you know, these gray beards of the party are voicing 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:54.679 their criticisms because they have a view of where the 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.559 party should be. But the other point is if they 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.920 don't say anything, no one will. And as this person 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:03.400 said to me, they're the last freedom fighters in the 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:04.680 Labor Party today. 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.320 Okay, So, Jason, if we are to focus on today, 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:11.360 on this current moment and the criticisms that are being 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.840 leveled at the Labor Party, that it's too timid, that 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:18.880 it's scared of big reforms, is there any acknowledgment of 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:23.560 that instinct from within? Did anyone who spoke to any 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:28.439 current labor figures defend a kind of softly softly approached 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:29.040 to reform. 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:32.880 I think many inside the government believe that governing today 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.360 is a lot different to governing in the nineteen eighties 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:39.240 and nineties. One former advisor to Anthony Albernezi that I 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:43.719 spoke to Dean Sure He said to me, well, look, 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:46.760 the truth is that the government has been busy and 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:49.000 that there are a lot of reforms on the table. 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.600 Performs to the way the NDAs is funded, changes to 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:58.400 the way Medicare is operating, cost of living relief measures 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:02.439 that have really made quite a difference to people who 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:06.360 have been struggling through this cost of living crissis. But 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:09.400 you know, as Dean Sho said to me, the government 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:11.600 does have to keep an eye on re election. It 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.839 is prudent politics to do so. And one of the 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.120 biggest lessons of the rut and Gillard years was that, 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.679 according to Dean that progress is fleeting if you lose 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:25.520 power before you get the chance to cement any changes. 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:30.719 And he used the example of the Guillard government. They 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.679 lost government after two terms and bold moves that they 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:38.000 had made, like the carbon tax, were quickly scrapped by 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:39.320 Tony Abbott. 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:43.760 This is a Labour green carbon tax and it's going 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:47.920 to drive up prices, threaten jobs, and do nothing at 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:49.640 all for the environment. 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:52.640 The lesson that Dean shir took from that was that 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:56.880 reforms have to be bettered down and future proofed so 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.480 that a future government can't just come in and quickly 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:04.200 repeal something like a carbon tax. And according to Dean, 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:06.880 there is a case to be made that a softly, 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:11.080 softly approach actually works in the long term. And another 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:15.360 labor veteran told me that when it comes to gambling reform, 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:20.080 it's only by waiting and carefully considering the options that 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.160 it will end up with a policy that strikes a 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:24.720 balance and actually has a hope of getting through the 0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:29.240 Senate and also lasting for years and decades to come. 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:29.600 You know. 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:31.480 This person said to me that if the government had 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.760 come out of the gate quickly when the report was 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.600 released by the late Labor MP Peter Murphy eighteen months 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:42.800 ago and moved to totally ban all online gambling as 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.240 that report suggested, then they would have been attacked by 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:50.680 every conservative politician in the country and probably wouldn't be 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:56.000 in a position to really implement any meaningful reform. 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.360 Sure, I can't help but think it is a strange 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.520 situation though, and you have the people who seem to 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:07.800 be speaking with real passionate about change and reform are 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.840 the ones who actually left the party a long time 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:14.320 ago in some cases and are approaching old age. I mean, 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:16.720 we're talking about a group of former politicians who are 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:21.079 in their sixties, their seventies, their eighties. So if these 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:24.440 are the quote freedom fighters, what does that say to 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:28.000 you about a problem at the heart of the Labor Party. 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:31.480 So I think one of the big problems here with 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:35.000 the Labor Party today is it doesn't have that sense 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:40.400 of energy and youth that reforming, energetic political movements have. 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:44.640 If you look at the Australian Greens and you go 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:48.600 to any event that Adam Bant is holding in public, 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:51.000 the first thing you notice is there's a lot of 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:55.360 passionate young people at those events, you know, volunteering, putting 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.360 their hands up, wanting to be part of that movement 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:02.480 that Adam Bant leads. And that's something you never see 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:06.760 at Labor Party events these days. It's mostly older people 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:11.320 whose only real interest is to be closer to power. 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.800 But you don't get the feeling that it's a vital, 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:18.360 energetic political movement that wants to go out there and 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:22.400 change the world in the way that the Labor Party 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:27.040 used to be. But I think, you know, the good 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:31.000 thing about having people like Paul Keating, Gareth Heavens, bobcar 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:35.560 and Bill Kelty speaking out like this is they are 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.360 likely to keep speaking out on issues that matter to them. 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.080 And then an effect of what they've been saying is 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.640 that this has got Labor actually thinking harder about okus 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:51.200 and how to keep the Labor Party vital. So indirectly 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:55.920 they are having a net positive effect by generating debate, 0:14:56.280 --> 0:15:00.240 and I think ultimately that's what's been missing I'm the 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:04.240 Labor Party in recent years, but we've now got a debate, 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.160 and I think, well, that's what politics is for, isn't it. 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:13.120 So maybe there's a silver lining there, and having these 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.680 Labor Party holders speak out in this way isn't necessarily 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:18.880 a bad thing for the Labor Party. 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:22.080 Jason, thank you so much for your time. 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:24.080 Thanks Reby, always great to talk with you. 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.800 Also in the news today, an Israeli airstrike in one 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:42.680 of South Lebanon's biggest cities has killed sixteen people in 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.840 the largest attack on an official Lebanese state building since 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:49.680 the Israeli air campaign began. The mayor of Nabatier was 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:52.320 among those killed in the strike that destroyed the city's 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:57.000 municipal headquarters, wounding more than fifty The Israeli military says 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.640 the target was a Hezbola underground tunnel network that Lebanese 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:03.840 officials say the attack is proof Israel's campaign is now 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:07.760 shifting to target the Lebanese state and The Therapeutic Goods 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.800 Administration has approved a new COVID nineteen vaccine for Australians 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.640 aged over six months, set to be available in the 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:17.680 coming months. The new fiz of vaccine is expected to 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:23.320 provide more protection against the latest omicron variants. Seven Am 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.600 is a daily show from Schwartz Media and The Saturday Paper. 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:31.560 It's produced by Shane Anderson, Zoltenfetcho and Zaia Artungral. Our 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:35.320 technical producer is Atakis Pasto. We're edited by Chris Dngate 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:38.480 and Sarah mcveae. Eric Jensen is our editor in chief. 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.800 Our mixer is Travis Evans. Our theme music is by 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.520 Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio. Seven Am 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:49.800 is hosted by James and myself, Ruby Jones. We'll be 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:51.800 back on Monday.