Speaker 1: From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am.
Speaker 1: No matter your politics, there's never been a politician who
Speaker 1: can wield an insult quite like former Labor Prime Minister
Speaker 1: Paul Keating.
Speaker 2: I asked the Prime Minister, if you are so confident
Speaker 2: about your view a fight back, why won't you call.
Speaker 3: An early election?
Speaker 4: Might because I want to do more slowly, I want
Speaker 4: to do your.
Speaker 1: Keating set the standard for eviscerating his opponents. He once
Speaker 1: called the coalition front bench scumbags, said John Howard was
Speaker 1: getting so wound up he needed a valium, and described
Speaker 1: Peter Costello as having all the attributes of a dog
Speaker 1: except loyalty.
Speaker 4: You all sat there last night while I roomed you out,
Speaker 4: point by point, dreamed you out. You were setting up there,
Speaker 4: both ties, the steam coming out.
Speaker 1: But lately Keating and a growing band of old time
Speaker 1: labor men are directing their barbs at their own privately
Speaker 1: and publicly criticizing the Albanese government on their policies and priorities. Today,
Speaker 1: special correspondent for the Saturday Paper Jason Cottsircus on the
Speaker 1: party elders problems with Labor and how their critiques are
Speaker 1: landing it's Friday, October eighteen, so Jason, I thought we
Speaker 1: could begin by talking about this group of Labor Party
Speaker 1: elders who seem to be loosely banding together with some
Speaker 1: shared grapes about the current Labor Party. Tell me who
Speaker 1: are they?
Speaker 3: So these are all veterans ruby from the Hook Keating
Speaker 3: guments from the nineteen eighties and the nineteen nineties, and
Speaker 3: the core of this group is the former Prime Minister
Speaker 3: Paul Keating, John Faulkner, who was the Leader of the
Speaker 3: Senate for the Labor Party, and Barry Jones, who was
Speaker 3: of course a very prominent minister in the Hawk government.
Speaker 3: And Bob Carr, the former New South Wales premier. He
Speaker 3: grew up in the Labor movement with Paul Keating and
Speaker 3: John Faulkner, so he's very much a part of that
Speaker 3: old guard as well. And what I've been told is
Speaker 3: that that core group getting together for lunch in Sydney
Speaker 3: once a month, and it seems that a regular topic
Speaker 3: for discussion is how disappointed they are in the Albanese
Speaker 3: government and the lack of progress the government is making
Speaker 3: on issues that are dear to them environmental policy. This
Speaker 3: proposed reform to gambling advertising. They also have in common
Speaker 3: the fact that they don't like the orchest policy. Seems
Speaker 3: to have been a feature of discussion among these kind
Speaker 3: of these labor wise men who feel that, you know,
Speaker 3: Australia shouldn't be tying itself so closely to the United States.
Speaker 3: And I think in poor Keating's case, he's particularly concerned
Speaker 3: that Australia seems to be giving up its sovereignty.
Speaker 1: Okay, so we've got these quote wise men of Labor
Speaker 1: Party elders critiquing Australia's relationship with the US, critiquing the
Speaker 1: orchard steel Can you tell me a bit more about
Speaker 1: the tenor and tone of those critiques and where they're
Speaker 1: being made.
Speaker 3: Well, I think they're being made in private and in public.
Speaker 3: If we start with poor Keating, you know, he's not
Speaker 3: afraid to do a lot of media.
Speaker 5: You know, the idea that we need American submarine to
Speaker 5: protect us, you know three, if we buy three or
Speaker 5: at three, three are going to protect us from the
Speaker 5: might of China. Really, I mean the rubbish of it,
Speaker 5: the rubbish. So for another word, let me say this,
Speaker 5: China has not threatened us in despite five years of.
Speaker 3: This in private, he's been really getting quite personal with
Speaker 3: some of his criticisms of the Prime Minister at the Albanzi,
Speaker 3: the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Defense Richard Miles,
Speaker 3: and Foreign Minister Penny Wong, who Paul Keating collectively has
Speaker 3: referred to in private as this kind of lix bittle
Speaker 3: kind of trio.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: Lix Biddle is a favorite Keating put down for anyone
Speaker 3: who shows the slightest hint of deference towards the US
Speaker 3: or the United Kingdom.
Speaker 2: I referred elsewhere to Richard Miles Defense mister Richard Miles's
Speaker 2: love of the United States as being so dewey iders
Speaker 2: to defy parody.
Speaker 3: And then there's Gareth Evans, the former foreign Minister he
Speaker 3: also got stuck into the Albanesi government has been too cautious,
Speaker 3: defensive and where's avoiding?
Speaker 2: And the Prime Minister himself, Albert not only has never
Speaker 2: given much attention to the complexities of defense and foreign policy,
Speaker 2: very unusual for the labor left, but he does remain
Speaker 2: politically deeply risk averse, occupied more than anything else, with
Speaker 2: not being portrayed domestically as weak, facilating.
Speaker 3: Another great labor figure from the nineteen eighties. Bill Kealty
Speaker 3: he was never in federal politics, but he was of
Speaker 3: course running the ACTU right throughout the eighties and the nineties.
Speaker 3: And he's been saying a similar thing in a speech
Speaker 3: I think he gave last month to a business for him.
Speaker 3: He said, there's a lot of good talkers in the government,
Speaker 3: but they don't do anything. You know, You've also got
Speaker 3: people like Stephen conrayd Allen Griffin, who are both ministers
Speaker 3: in the rud and Gillard governments. They're also on the
Speaker 3: sidelines trying to exert influence around preselections and policy decisions
Speaker 3: where they can. So it's quite a busy of offstage
Speaker 3: collection of important labor figures there who are all chipping
Speaker 3: in with their own interpretations of what the government's doing,
Speaker 3: and that they haven't been afraid to express their disappointment.
Speaker 1: Okay, So how is this criticism or I suppose it
Speaker 1: could also be construed as meddling. How is it landing?
Speaker 1: I can't really imagine that alban Ezy and his senior
Speaker 1: ministers would appreciate the feedback.
Speaker 3: Well, I think they're really starting to get pretty annoyed
Speaker 3: about it. Labor insiders, you know, both in Canberra and
Speaker 3: around the country quite frankly hate this, this constant carping
Speaker 3: from the sidelines. It's an annoying distraction for them and
Speaker 3: I think they just wish it would go away. And
Speaker 3: you know, one Labor veteran told me, and this was
Speaker 3: a person who was very close to the Hawk and
Speaker 3: Kenny governments, said to me, you know what really struck
Speaker 3: me about the Hook and getting governments in particularly the
Speaker 3: Hawk period, was that there were no Whitland government ministers
Speaker 3: wandering around shitbagging the Prime Minister, his ministers or their priorities.
Speaker 3: And he also felt that it's one thing to say
Speaker 3: the government is on the wrong track, but to descend
Speaker 3: into the highly personal attacks that we are seeing is
Speaker 3: not at all helpful. Another member of Labour's front bench expressed,
Speaker 3: you know, the concern to me that it was nostalgia
Speaker 3: that was making them forget the pressures of leadership and
Speaker 3: just how hard it is to govern. And another Labor veteran,
Speaker 3: Flatter rejected this complaint that the Albanese government has shirked
Speaker 3: any and all major reform and he said that that
Speaker 3: was just a kind of willful blindness. Of course, some
Speaker 3: members of the current government. You know, they are also
Speaker 3: to some of the criticisms that Paul Caating has been making.
Speaker 3: You know, one current minister in particular told me that
Speaker 3: the problem is that Labor is becoming a top down,
Speaker 3: invitation only society. And as this person said to me,
Speaker 3: we're timid and we're woke and that's a pretty facked
Speaker 3: position to be. And according to that minister.
Speaker 1: After the break our, one Labor minister says, the entire
Speaker 1: party structure is broken. So, Jason, you've got a current
Speaker 1: Labor minister on record saying that the Labor Party is
Speaker 1: essentially becoming more elite, more tightly controlled, both timid and
Speaker 1: woke as they put it. So tell me more about
Speaker 1: what this person says about what Labour's problem is and
Speaker 1: how it got to this situation.
Speaker 3: Well, I think what's happened here If we look at
Speaker 3: the last fifty years of labor history, we had the
Speaker 3: very undisciplined Whitlam government and in reaction to that, the
Speaker 3: Hawk and Keating governments became much more disciplined. You know,
Speaker 3: ever since then that the Labor Party has become more
Speaker 3: centralized and the National executive has acquired more power, the
Speaker 3: power to overrule the branches the power to overrule the
Speaker 3: rank and file, and they did that for reasons of
Speaker 3: political expediency, because they think, well, the more professional we are,
Speaker 3: the less chance there is that will pre select candidates
Speaker 3: that do something stupid. But I guess the downside of
Speaker 3: that is that, as this minister said to me last week,
Speaker 3: the truth is that the party doesn't really exist at
Speaker 3: the moment. It's either old people or ministerial staffers or
Speaker 3: the odd union secretary. No one young and fresh is
Speaker 3: actually joining the party anymore. There isn't that same diversity
Speaker 3: of background that other labor governments have had. The party
Speaker 3: really is sick at the moment. And according to this person,
Speaker 3: you know, these gray beards of the party are voicing
Speaker 3: their criticisms because they have a view of where the
Speaker 3: party should be. But the other point is if they
Speaker 3: don't say anything, no one will. And as this person
Speaker 3: said to me, they're the last freedom fighters in the
Speaker 3: Labor Party today.
Speaker 1: Okay, So, Jason, if we are to focus on today,
Speaker 1: on this current moment and the criticisms that are being
Speaker 1: leveled at the Labor Party, that it's too timid, that
Speaker 1: it's scared of big reforms, is there any acknowledgment of
Speaker 1: that instinct from within? Did anyone who spoke to any
Speaker 1: current labor figures defend a kind of softly softly approached
Speaker 1: to reform.
Speaker 3: I think many inside the government believe that governing today
Speaker 3: is a lot different to governing in the nineteen eighties
Speaker 3: and nineties. One former advisor to Anthony Albernezi that I
Speaker 3: spoke to Dean Sure He said to me, well, look,
Speaker 3: the truth is that the government has been busy and
Speaker 3: that there are a lot of reforms on the table.
Speaker 3: Performs to the way the NDAs is funded, changes to
Speaker 3: the way Medicare is operating, cost of living relief measures
Speaker 3: that have really made quite a difference to people who
Speaker 3: have been struggling through this cost of living crissis. But
Speaker 3: you know, as Dean Sho said to me, the government
Speaker 3: does have to keep an eye on re election. It
Speaker 3: is prudent politics to do so. And one of the
Speaker 3: biggest lessons of the rut and Gillard years was that,
Speaker 3: according to Dean that progress is fleeting if you lose
Speaker 3: power before you get the chance to cement any changes.
Speaker 3: And he used the example of the Guillard government. They
Speaker 3: lost government after two terms and bold moves that they
Speaker 3: had made, like the carbon tax, were quickly scrapped by
Speaker 3: Tony Abbott.
Speaker 4: This is a Labour green carbon tax and it's going
Speaker 4: to drive up prices, threaten jobs, and do nothing at
Speaker 4: all for the environment.
Speaker 3: The lesson that Dean shir took from that was that
Speaker 3: reforms have to be bettered down and future proofed so
Speaker 3: that a future government can't just come in and quickly
Speaker 3: repeal something like a carbon tax. And according to Dean,
Speaker 3: there is a case to be made that a softly,
Speaker 3: softly approach actually works in the long term. And another
Speaker 3: labor veteran told me that when it comes to gambling reform,
Speaker 3: it's only by waiting and carefully considering the options that
Speaker 3: it will end up with a policy that strikes a
Speaker 3: balance and actually has a hope of getting through the
Speaker 3: Senate and also lasting for years and decades to come.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: This person said to me that if the government had
Speaker 3: come out of the gate quickly when the report was
Speaker 3: released by the late Labor MP Peter Murphy eighteen months
Speaker 3: ago and moved to totally ban all online gambling as
Speaker 3: that report suggested, then they would have been attacked by
Speaker 3: every conservative politician in the country and probably wouldn't be
Speaker 3: in a position to really implement any meaningful reform.
Speaker 1: Sure, I can't help but think it is a strange
Speaker 1: situation though, and you have the people who seem to
Speaker 1: be speaking with real passionate about change and reform are
Speaker 1: the ones who actually left the party a long time
Speaker 1: ago in some cases and are approaching old age. I mean,
Speaker 1: we're talking about a group of former politicians who are
Speaker 1: in their sixties, their seventies, their eighties. So if these
Speaker 1: are the quote freedom fighters, what does that say to
Speaker 1: you about a problem at the heart of the Labor Party.
Speaker 3: So I think one of the big problems here with
Speaker 3: the Labor Party today is it doesn't have that sense
Speaker 3: of energy and youth that reforming, energetic political movements have.
Speaker 3: If you look at the Australian Greens and you go
Speaker 3: to any event that Adam Bant is holding in public,
Speaker 3: the first thing you notice is there's a lot of
Speaker 3: passionate young people at those events, you know, volunteering, putting
Speaker 3: their hands up, wanting to be part of that movement
Speaker 3: that Adam Bant leads. And that's something you never see
Speaker 3: at Labor Party events these days. It's mostly older people
Speaker 3: whose only real interest is to be closer to power.
Speaker 3: But you don't get the feeling that it's a vital,
Speaker 3: energetic political movement that wants to go out there and
Speaker 3: change the world in the way that the Labor Party
Speaker 3: used to be. But I think, you know, the good
Speaker 3: thing about having people like Paul Keating, Gareth Heavens, bobcar
Speaker 3: and Bill Kelty speaking out like this is they are
Speaker 3: likely to keep speaking out on issues that matter to them.
Speaker 3: And then an effect of what they've been saying is
Speaker 3: that this has got Labor actually thinking harder about okus
Speaker 3: and how to keep the Labor Party vital. So indirectly
Speaker 3: they are having a net positive effect by generating debate,
Speaker 3: and I think ultimately that's what's been missing I'm the
Speaker 3: Labor Party in recent years, but we've now got a debate,
Speaker 3: and I think, well, that's what politics is for, isn't it.
Speaker 3: So maybe there's a silver lining there, and having these
Speaker 3: Labor Party holders speak out in this way isn't necessarily
Speaker 3: a bad thing for the Labor Party.
Speaker 1: Jason, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: Thanks Reby, always great to talk with you.
Speaker 1: Also in the news today, an Israeli airstrike in one
Speaker 1: of South Lebanon's biggest cities has killed sixteen people in
Speaker 1: the largest attack on an official Lebanese state building since
Speaker 1: the Israeli air campaign began. The mayor of Nabatier was
Speaker 1: among those killed in the strike that destroyed the city's
Speaker 1: municipal headquarters, wounding more than fifty The Israeli military says
Speaker 1: the target was a Hezbola underground tunnel network that Lebanese
Speaker 1: officials say the attack is proof Israel's campaign is now
Speaker 1: shifting to target the Lebanese state and The Therapeutic Goods
Speaker 1: Administration has approved a new COVID nineteen vaccine for Australians
Speaker 1: aged over six months, set to be available in the
Speaker 1: coming months. The new fiz of vaccine is expected to
Speaker 1: provide more protection against the latest omicron variants. Seven Am
Speaker 1: is a daily show from Schwartz Media and The Saturday Paper.
Speaker 1: It's produced by Shane Anderson, Zoltenfetcho and Zaia Artungral. Our
Speaker 1: technical producer is Atakis Pasto. We're edited by Chris Dngate
Speaker 1: and Sarah mcveae. Eric Jensen is our editor in chief.
Speaker 1: Our mixer is Travis Evans. Our theme music is by
Speaker 1: Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Audio. Seven Am
Speaker 1: is hosted by James and myself, Ruby Jones. We'll be
Speaker 1: back on Monday.