WEBVTT - Read This: Rumaan Alam on Class, Desire, and Dread 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.000 Hey there, it's Ruby Jones. This week we're releasing our 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.240 favorite episodes from our sister podcast Read This. It's the 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.400 show where the editor of the monthly, Michael Williams, talks 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:12.200 to some of the best and most respected writers from 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:16.319 Australia and around the world. And today we're hearing from 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:22.680 American author Rumin Alum and Michael Williams joins us. 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:22.880 Now. 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.479 Hello Michael. Hello, So Michael, can you tell me a 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:27.920 bit about Rumin Alum. 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:31.960 Yeah. Rumin Alums the author of four novels, and the 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:34.760 one you're probably most likely to have heard of was 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:36.360 the one that came out in twenty twenty. It was 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:39.080 a New York Times bestseller and it was called Leave 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:41.720 the World Behind. It was one of those kind of 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.440 very zeitgeisty books about an apocalyptic event where a bunch 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:48.400 of affluent New Yorkers are trapped in the Hamptons. It 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.839 was made into a Netflix movie last year, starring Julia 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.920 Roberts and Ethan Hawke from Memory, and that was a 0:00:57.040 --> 0:00:59.720 very good adaptation. But it was also a gripping book. 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:00.560 Was really good. 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:03.480 Yeah, it's a thriller, isn't it. But it also has 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:06.680 these themes of class and race and privilege. 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.920 Yeah, and those themes are really a through line through 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:12.760 all four of his books, not least his latest novel, 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:16.800 which is called Entrapment, which follows this single middle class 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.920 woman called Brooke who's got a job as an assistant 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:25.280 to this octogenarian billionaire and he's on this kick late 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:27.319 in his life. He decidedly has to give away his 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.840 vast fortune. So it's kind of her job to assist 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:33.720 him in that. But proximity to that kind of wealth 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:37.160 has a corrupting effect, and so she very quickly finds 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:42.080 herself adopting his lifestyle without necessarily the funds to pay 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:45.440 for it. So Entitlement is in that same vein as 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.040 a kind of thriller, a cautionary tale. It's all about 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:53.280 self delusion in a city that values money above everything else. 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:56.120 It's really terrific and a lot of fun to talk 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:58.919 to him. We talk about Richard Scarry books for some reason, 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.720 so that tells you the conversation goes in unexpected. 0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:08.280 Directions, coming up in just a moment. Women alarm on class, 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:09.520 desire and dread. 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:17.000 Class is an element that's a play in all of 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:22.280 Rumen's novels, but perhaps most acutely obvious in Entitlement, where 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:25.120 the whole idea of social status and wealth becomes an 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:29.640 obsession for its main character, Brook. I wanted to start 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:35.120 by asking you about class in America and about how 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:40.680 important classes in the kind of spectrum of identity, politics, 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:43.280 in the spectrum of kind of sense of self in 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:44.280 contemporary America. 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:48.640 Well, with the covey up that I'm ill equipped to 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:52.840 speak about, you know, the netion large, it does feel 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:57.560 to me that class is a pretty significant factor in 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:03.640 American cultural and life. You see it in the kind 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:08.560 of I'm trying to think that sort of performance conducted 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:14.400 by someone like Trump, who is of a certain class, 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:20.800 a moneyed, urbane class, and is able via language and 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:25.400 all of these other signifiers to address and sort of 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:29.560 be glorified by a quite different class of Americans. So 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.680 that kind of cross class thing I think we've seen. 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:36.200 And Trump is hardly the only politician who does this, 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:39.560 because the political lead in this country on both sides 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:45.920 of the political spectrum tends to be moneyed, highly educated 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:48.960 people who have gone to school in Cambridge or New York. 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:53.200 But they're able to mobilize these sort of coalitions or 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:55.880 camps of voters who are sort of nothing like them 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.440 by appealing to them with some language that seems to 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:04.320 be very rude in class. And I think it's discomforting 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:08.000 to talk about, as complicated as it is to have 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:10.680 a proper conversation in this country, and I'm sure in 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:15.200 Australia as well about racial politics, class politics feel even 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:20.800 more slippery because you are sort of reducing huge segments 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:24.239 of the population to these sort of ridiculous types based 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:27.440 on all of these external factors. And yet I think 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:33.320 it's also something that people understand is present. It's present 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:36.400 in what your accent sounds like, it's present in what 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:40.640 your name is like, and it determines so much of 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:45.640 your experience of contemporary life. I mean, as a middle 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:48.720 class person, I guess maybe it's the middle class generally, 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:50.839 or the coastal middle class or the New York City 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:53.840 middle class has the least reason to talk about it. 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.960 I mean, that's more, it's less salient to my experience 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:00.800 of life, because I'm not beginning my life for trying 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:04.320 to radically change the circumstances of my life based on 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:07.680 what I've inherited from my parents, based on the class 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:08.719 into which I was born. 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.479 Part of how from outside it appears to play out 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:16.600 in an American context, which is something that's very present 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.719 in all of your work, I think is around the 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.760 idea of aspiration. You know. The thing that always staggers 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:26.400 me as someone who's not an American is how often 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:30.360 the political debate in your country people seem to vote 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.760 against self interest. There is something about the idea that 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.000 you might not be a millionaire, you might not be 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.800 comfortably off, but one day you might get to be. 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.760 In the American dream, it's possible that you are going 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.160 to end up in this position of privilege, and as 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:48.320 a consequence, you're going to vote with your aspirational self 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:52.599 rather than your real self. That gap between what you 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:56.240 want and what you're allowed to want seems pretty huge. 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:59.960 Is that a reductive way of talking about your country? 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:01.960 I don't think so, but you know, I'm not running 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:05.800 for office. I think that you said it yourself, the 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:10.320 American Dream. That sort of phrase is some of the 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:15.120 most persuasive myth making we have in the culture. It's 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.200 up there with just do it right. It's like that 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:22.320 is the brand of this nation, that you can dream 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:27.080 really big, and the way that that has been sort 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:32.240 of bent for the electorate by people who I think 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:36.920 are ultimately quite cynical. Is to appeal to this childish 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:42.520 idea that you may be a millionaire someday and that 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:45.600 you should not do anything that might cost your future 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:49.120 self in sort of tax consequence or something which is 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:54.159 obviously preposterous, and you know, but it's quite successful. People 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:59.240 rail in this country perfectly reasonable. People rail against the 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:04.200 idea of this state providing lunches to school children, you know, 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:08.880 which is crazy. It's crazy. They rail against things like 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:14.920 inheritance tax, not really comprehending that the inheritance tax on 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:19.440 one hundred and fifty American families could completely change the 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:24.000 way the American economy functions, because they imagine that someday 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:25.800 I'm going to leave this money to my child or 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.200 you know, that will somehow affect me. But it's not 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:30.760 going to affect you. It's going to affect the Walton 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:34.920 family or Bill Gates, but it has nothing to do 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:35.960 with me. You know. 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:42.440 As a novelist, how useful is the idea of desire 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.840 and want and aspiration as a novelistic engine. It seems 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.800 to be one that you had drawn to. Is characters 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.880 who hunger for things that are just out of reach 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:55.280 or denied them one way or the other. 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:02.160 That schema's efficacy, as like the engine of a novel, 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:04.960 is ultimately that that judgment is in the hands of 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:08.000 the reader. I would say that as the writer, you 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:12.560 can't help returning to your hobby horses, and you just 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:15.320 sort of find yourself back in this same territory over 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:19.880 and over again. I thought of my third book, Leave 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.920 the World Behind, as being really distinct from my first two. 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:28.240 And while it is formally or in the sort of 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:33.240 novelistic strategy, it is distinct thematically, it's not it's really 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.800 the same territory. And I think that that's I think 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.640 that that is something that happens to I was going 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:40.400 to say writers, but I think it's sort of something 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:42.960 you see across the board that artists have these particular 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:49.800 preoccupations and desire. And in this case, I don't mean 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:54.559 a kind of vaunted, spiritual or intellectual desire. I mean 0:08:54.640 --> 0:09:00.560 sort of like want of things, or status or or 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:04.199 power or something is a pretty It's a pretty easy 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.520 one for me to get my head into. And maybe 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.000 that's because I'm American. That kind of desire is like, 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:14.760 that's you're taught that from your I mean, that is 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.880 inculcated in you from the very beginning, you know, like 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:20.400 I think it's not just about American life, it's sort 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:25.480 of contemporary life. But contemporary life is about possessions and 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:29.360 it's about acquisition. And this is a message that you 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:33.320 are hit with constantly. I have two children, and I 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:37.400 remember when they first started taking the bus to school, 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:40.000 and then they would take the bus to summer camp. 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:43.880 It was especially with my older son. You know, parents 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:47.319 often with their first born can be very vigilant about 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.040 being the intermediary and their experience of reality. But then 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:52.880 they slip out of your hands to go off to 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.520 school to ride the bus, and they hear things like 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:57.760 the radio. So this is a kid who had never 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:01.080 seen the television, but would come home saying to me, 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:02.680 I mean, he has said to me, this is like 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:04.800 one of those stories that families love to tell. He 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.000 said to me, like, what are we doing for Toyota 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.920 than right, which is just a sales gimmick that he 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:14.080 heard about on the radio on the way to summer camp. 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:18.440 And so that kind of messaging about acquisition and buying 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:22.240 is so persuasive even to a little a little baby 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:24.080 who doesn't know what you're talking about, who isn't going 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.319 to buy a car, you know. So I just think 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.560 that's like part of the it's part of the culture. 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:30.360 That's what we want. 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:33.000 There's nothing quite like being a parent to get that 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.720 stuff reflected back to you as well. And you're right, 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:38.560 it's a funny thing as they get older where you 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:42.280 go from if not controlling, at least being present for 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.280 the entirety of their experience and the entirety of how 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:49.600 they understand the world that they're in, to other influences 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:54.240 coming in and completely kind of feeding in in different ways, 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:57.360 which is such a confronting thing I think as a parent. 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.360 And you know that's a but even if you sort 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:05.800 of curate their experience of reality, you know, with which 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:07.640 we did or we tried to do, as I think 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:10.080 a lot of parents do. He read these books like 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:12.720 you watch fifteen minutes of this show, you play with 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:16.000 these organic wooden blocks. I remember when my older son 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.240 was quite small, because it was before we had his brother, 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:22.240 so he was three or less, and we saw a 0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:25.280 woman who lived across the street from us unloading sheets 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:28.959 of drywall from the back of a van, and this 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:34.120 little baby said, ladies can't do that, which is such 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:38.199 a startling thing to hear from your kid's mouth, especially 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:40.760 when you, you know, my husband and I are like, oh, 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.480 we're raising these enlightened these are going to be like 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:45.840 the great young men of the future. To hear him 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:50.240 say this sort of startling thing. And my theory about 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:54.320 that is that he was saying something he had seen 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:58.439 in the pages of Richard Scary. Yeah, where those books 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:02.000 you see the dads with the tool belts or you know, 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.280 they're the butcher or whatever, and the and the moms 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.640 the pigs or cows or whatever they are are wearing aprons 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.200 and they're cooking, and so he kids are just trying 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.240 to make sense of the world, and the world is 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:16.320 trying to sheepe their understanding of that world. And it 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:18.439 happens to you too. And as you're saying, I think 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:20.240 when you when you see it happen to your kids, 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:22.040 you realize the extent to which it has happened to you. 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.719 I mean, Richard Scarry's a prime example. There's such kind 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:28.080 of rigid gender norms, but he'll still let a pig 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.480 be a butcher, which seems like a strange job choice 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:33.800 for a pig. I don't want to be judgmental, but 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:50.319 that seems unkind When did you know you wanted to 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.800 be a writer, and what was the relationship between that 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:56.320 moment and your experience as a reader. 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.640 Adults can come to reading at any time, of course, 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:01.960 but I think there are certain adults for whom it 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:06.920 happens in childhood. It happens sort of like quickly and bindingly. 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.200 The mythology in my own family, and who knows if 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.000 it's true, is that I learned to read when I 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.440 was four. I was taught by a babysitter, and like 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:22.240 once that happened, I never supped. And that is certainly 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:25.599 my memory. It's hard to know, you know, how reliable 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:31.199 that is, but I remember so clearly reading a book. 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:32.960 I would take a bath. I would read in the bathtub, 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:34.760 and I would finish the book, and then I would 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:36.920 go back to the first page. I never it would 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:40.400 sort of continue on. For me. One of the worst 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.000 tragedies of my young life is when we were on 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:46.840 vacation and I finished the two books I had brought 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:50.040 like I finished them like at the airport, and I 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.640 had to read my father's copy of The Hunt for 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.360 Road October for the balance of my trip when I 0:13:55.400 --> 0:14:01.400 was like ten. So I think that it the kid 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:05.360 who is a reader like that as I was. It's 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:07.640 not a far walk from there to think like, I'm 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:12.560 also going to be a writer. And I remember having 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:18.280 this idea about myself, like pretty young, before I even 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:23.560 started school, And it was always the kind of story 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:27.400 I told about myself and to myself, and so feels 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:30.960 like an inevitability. But of course that's so silly because 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:32.960 I was a little kid. So what did I know? 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:34.840 You were a little kid who would lie in the 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:36.760 bath and write a book. I mean, you had a 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:40.480 certain kind of daked and self knowledge there already clearly. 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:45.400 Yeah, a little princeling reading Judie Bloom in the bathtub 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.560 at ten magic. But I do you know, I think 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:52.200 that like that stuff. I mean, it just becomes the 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.360 story you tell yourself, right, sort of makes sense of 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:57.600 your own life. But that is the story that I tell. 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:00.920 And I think it's true that that sort of deep 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:05.080 passion for reading it was interconnection with an interest in 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:07.560 writing or I desire to, you know, I just I 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.760 couldn't believe it, Like I read as a kid, Judy Plume, 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.560 I read Harriet the Spy, which is Louise fits you, 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:17.120 And then as I got older, I read like I 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:19.200 got the Christine and I just couldn't believe it. It 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:23.280 was like this idea that these people somehow had the ability. 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:27.360 It just felt like magic. Yeah, And to be honest 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:29.080 with you, I mean, I'm forty seven now, and I 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.360 still feel that way. You know, I still feel that way. 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:37.520 I was reading Kazia a couple of weeks ago and 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.960 I was like, this is crazy, Like what am I reading? 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:41.840 What is he doing to me? 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:42.080 Like? 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:45.520 How did this happen? How did this book from that 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:49.360 he wrote thirty years ago come to me now? And 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.600 you know, pick apart my brain. It's a very strange thing. 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:56.160 And so yeah, it's sort of a life while I'm 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:56.840 feeling about that. 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.480 When we written, Ruman explains why The Genesis of Entitlement 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:06.600 feels so singular and reveals how he manages his relationship 0:16:06.640 --> 0:16:19.200 with readers. We'll be right back. I'm curious about what 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:23.360 that first spark when you know there's a new book 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.800 on the horizon, whether it's more likely to be an 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:31.760 idea or whether they come from character from story. 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:34.840 So I have a very clear sense of how to 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.840 answer this question with reect to my first book, and 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:40.600 my second book, and even my third book. Somehow, this 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.960 one entitlement it's genesis is a little hazy to me. 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:49.840 A long time ago, my husband said to me about 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:54.000 a friend of ours, an acquaintance really He said, you know, 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:59.040 she's kind of like a chronically single woman at a 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:02.320 time approaching life. And he said, you know, I think 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.000 at a certain point you should be allowed to marry 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:08.159 yourself and throw a big party and everyone has to 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:09.639 give you a gift and sort of treat it the 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:11.320 same way that they would treat it if you were 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:14.920 getting married to another person. A not cruel joke, but 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:17.560 kind of like a funny observation, and that really stayed 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:21.000 with me. I remembered that moment, and at some point 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:23.760 I think a lot of it is down to the 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:25.959 pandemic that this sort of this book was sort of 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.520 born in this period that I think was hazy for 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:32.399 a lot of people. I had this idea about a 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:37.199 woman choosing to marry an apartment. We were looking for 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.840 a home in New York City at the time, so 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:41.320 we were kind of had we kind of had like 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.480 real estate on the brain. I do think that part 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:47.880 of being a middle class person in your forties in 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.359 New York City is that you think about real estate 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:53.240 a lot. There was something very arresting in that idea 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:55.560 to me of a woman saying I'm going to marry 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:59.760 this apartment instead of this man or this woman entitlement 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.200 all simiately. The shape that it took strays pretty far 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:06.000 from that. I remember at some point it was also 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:11.440 very interested in the not for profit sector in particular 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.720 these and there are there are quite a few of them, 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:22.080 these sort of family operations where somebody who has acquired 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.119 a fortune or someone who has inherited a fortune works 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.560 with a lawyer and a couple of other people to 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:31.840 disburse this particular fortune. I know somebody who is involved 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:35.320 in this particular business, and the person for whom she 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:41.760 works is quite extraordinarily wealthy and has extremely specific priorities 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:45.919 in terms of their giving their philanthropy. They're interested in 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:52.480 very very specific causes, and the family foundation is an 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.119 extremely small group of people. I think it's this guy 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:59.719 and his attorney and a friend of mine. And that 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:06.600 was interesting to me, because you are able to really 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:11.880 do something to really affect something, but you also are 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:17.320 just some guy with a checkbook. And for the most part, 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:19.679 I think that these sort of investments are going to 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.399 things that we can all agree are generally good. To 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:27.080 micro finance, to researching breast cancer, whatever, these are good causes. 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:31.520 But there is something very peculiar about the fact that 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:33.760 just because this guy who did not make this money 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:38.200 he inherited it is able to channel a pretty significant 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:42.160 fortune according to his whim. Again, not like a bad thing, 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:47.119 but an interesting thing, very interesting to me. And I 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:51.239 think since Empire of Pain and that particular book, that 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:55.440 particular set of research into the Sacklers and how they 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.600 may have, I think it's hard to sort of understand, 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:05.200 but that perhaps some desire on the part of people 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.840 who have acquired fortune are built of fortune in ways 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:11.440 that they understand to be slightly less than ethical, that 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:16.639 they can use philanthropic giving to kind of burnish the 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.359 family reputation or burnish their name. That was also of 0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:23.200 interest to me. So I think what happens for me 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:26.560 is that I have ideas that I'm interested in and 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:31.879 I need something to make them start happening. And I 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:34.320 think with this particular book with entitlement. It was really 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:36.920 situated in the character that I had these two characters 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:42.000 who sort of embodied these ideas, the idea of a 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:47.480 young contemporary woman who wanted to sort of issue traditional 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.800 romantic and familial attachments and sort of wanted an apartment, 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:59.520 and an older wealthy man who was interested in the 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:04.080 kind of ego flex of giving, of generosity. 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.720 And I love that you described that philanthropic impulse is 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:11.600 interesting but not bad, because I think part of what 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:15.399 you do so beautifully and entitlement is exactly that idea. 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.199 You know, there is a I think a natural impulse 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.760 in our culture, even if not in our politics, to 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:27.000 assume that an octogenarian billionaire is going to somehow be 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:30.080 a dastardly figure or be motivated by things that are 0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:36.120 somehow render the philanthropy unworthy or render him suspect. And 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:38.800 I think the way you've built the character of Asha 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.639 Jaffey in this book is really interesting because you go 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:45.080 with interesting but not bad. I think could be a mantra. 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:49.200 Right, He's not a bond villain, you know, I mean 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:52.720 there is we have and we actually have those billionaires 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:55.880 in this country, right, these bond villain billionaires who want 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:59.320 to go to space or live forever, or whatever preposterous 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:02.200 endeavor they have. I think of Asher. I mean, I'm 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:05.160 very fond of Asher'll be more fond of him than 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:09.840 any person I've ever made up on the page. He's 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:12.800 like a nice guy. He feels like someone who's sort 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:16.280 of lucked his way into having billions of dollars, and 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:20.359 he seems on some level aware of the limits of 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:22.520 his own intelligence. But I also think that when you 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:26.359 are costeded by great wealth, you begin to think you 0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:31.400 are great, you know, a little bit immortal, a little 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:33.560 bit unfalliable, right, And I think that this sort of 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:36.399 gets into your head. But yeah, I think that I 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:40.560 didn't want the book to rely on this schema in 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:45.560 which the old white guy is evil. You know, it 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:48.840 doesn't seem that interesting to be He's not great, I 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:52.359 mean he does some his behavior is more complex, and 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:54.800 I think that's true of most people, right, Yeah, it's 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:56.520 people are more complex than that, you know. 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:00.240 I'm glad you mentioned his degree of self awareness, because 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:03.879 I do think for both him and for Brook, they 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:06.920 have a kind of key protagonist in the book that 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:10.119 question about how aware they are of their own motivation 0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:13.880 of the impact of their own behavior and thinking back 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:16.960 to your earlier books, how fun is it to write 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:20.359 characters who are less self aware than you are as 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:21.760 the authorial voice. 0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:25.600 Well, it's great fun because I get to exercise full control. 0:23:25.760 --> 0:23:29.880 I think that the challenge then, I mean challenge isn't 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:32.640 quite the word, but the particular risk is that then 0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:36.800 it's a question for the reader. The reader has to 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:42.639 have her own perspective on the degree to which these 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:51.159 characters are honest or trustworthy, or likable or real, you 0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:55.560 know whatever. But people, That is how I think how 0:23:55.600 --> 0:23:58.520 people are. I think if you're again, if you're waiting 0:23:58.680 --> 0:24:03.600 a story for children or sort of like a you know, 0:24:04.080 --> 0:24:07.200 then it's or fairy tale or something. It's easy to understand, 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:09.919 sort of like black and white, good and evil, you know, 0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:15.440 but the truth of reality is like a little more complicated. 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:20.760 You know. Asher is a very smart man who made 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:23.359