WEBVTT - Bringing down predator Malka Leifer: Nicole Meyer Pt.1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.080 Detective see aside of life. The average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.119 exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:46.120 Join me now as I take you into this world. Today, 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.640 I spoke to Nicole Meyer. It was a very difficult 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:53.960 conversation they have. You may not recognize Nicole's name, but 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:56.160 it's likely you've heard of the case. She was closely 0:00:56.200 --> 0:01:00.640 linked to. Nicole and the two younger sisters, Elie Sapper 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:04.840 and Dassy Elrich, made allegations about being sexually assaulted by 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:09.240 their school principal, malch Leifa whilst at the ultra Orthodox 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:13.680 Jewish school called a Das Israel School. Just days after 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:17.560 the allegation came to light, Malchallifa fled back to Israel 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:20.559 with her family. That led to a thirteen year legal 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:24.160 battle to get Malcha Leifer extradited back to Australia to 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.520 face twenty nine charges relating to the sexual abuse of 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:30.279 Nicole and the sisters. There was a seven week trial 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:34.080 in August twenty twenty three where Malcal Leifer was convicted 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:37.959 of eighteen counts relating to the sexual abuse of Nicole's 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:41.520 two sisters, but was clear of the charges relating to herself. 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:44.959 We talked about the impact that this horrendous situation had 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:48.960 on Nicole. It was a deeply personal and troubling story, 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.440 but one I think is important to talk about. Before 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.120 we listened to this conversation, I need to reiterate that 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.400 Malchal Leifer was found not guilty of charges relating to 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:03.280 our guests Nicole Meyer. So in the eyes of the law, 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:06.840 these offenses were not proven. We need to acknowledge and 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:09.280 accept that. But if we're going to put our trust 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:13.240 in the court's decisions, let's also accept Malcolifho was found 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.639 guilty of eighteen counts of sexually abusing the Coles sisters 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:22.480 and was sentenced to fifteen years imprisonment. Nicole Meyer, welcome 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:25.880 to our Catch Killers. Thank you well, look, thank you 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:30.640 for coming in and talking about what's occurred to yourself 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:34.640 and your sisters. It must be difficult to talk about, 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.600 but I think it's important that people like yourself talk 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:39.000 about what happened. 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:42.280 It has been difficult initially, but now I find it 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:45.480 actually healing and I hope validating and supporting for any 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:47.880 other survivor that actually tunes in and listens. 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:51.840 Yeah, we've had we've had previous victims and in my 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:55.840 time in the police, victims of sexual assault or survivors 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.200 of sexual assault that some people refer to it as. 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:02.520 I think there is strength in people speaking out because 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:07.160 quite often there's victim blame, the victims blame themselves for 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.520 whatever bizarre reason that, oh, this has happened to me. 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:12.400 But the more people that speak about that, I think 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:15.880 it makes people more comfortable that you are a victim 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:18.480 and it's nothing to do with the person that's been assaulted. 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:20.440 That's a person that's created that. 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:23.800 Environment, absolutely, and I think it also removes the shame. 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:25.720 There is so much shame when it comes to being 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.760 abused and not being able to say your story or 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:31.480 feeling too ashamed is a difficult one. So being able 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:33.960 to speak out give strength to others as well that 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:35.720 they don't have to stay quiet and don't have to 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:36.520 feel that shame. 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:40.080 Yeah, talk me through the shame. Why the shame? Where 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:42.440 do you think that comes from? 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:45.400 I think many victims survivors sometimes feel that the abuses 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:47.800 their fault or why they didn't say no, or why 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:49.960 they couldn't stop it, or why they didn't walk away. 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:52.520 So there's a lot of shame associated with our self 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:56.320 blame and our self criticism and even myself. I reflect 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.160 back and I think where was my head in those years? 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.120 But when someone has such control over you, like Marc 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:04.680 life I did over me, there was no options of no, 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:06.920 and that was just one fact of why I couldn't 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:10.400 say no. So the shame is associated with could I 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:12.960 have done something different to stop it? Or why was 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:16.120 I chosen to be a victim? Or did I somehow 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:19.320 ask for it? Not really, but did I do something 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.200 that made that person think I was an easy target? 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.880 That's the insidious nature of a crime where the perpetrator 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:30.120 is grooming people too isn't it absolutely creating that doubt, 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:32.840 and that's where the nature of the crime and it 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:36.360 continues on that guilt that's attached to the victims because 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:38.320 of the way they've been groomed. 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:41.920 Yes, grooming is just the very beginning of the whole 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:47.159 abuse cycle. Unfortunately, and particularly with Markolaeifer. She was a woman, 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:49.960 and she was nurturing, and she was kind and she 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:54.040 was caring. So it wasn't just her coming in and 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.880 taking advantage. It was a slow build up of crossing 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:00.320 boundaries that I didn't even know were there until the 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:04.160 abuse started, and it all was disguised under care, love 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.640 and nurturing, which I was severely lucky from home, so 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:11.680 I was appreciative of that care, attention, love that she 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.280 was so freely giving to myself and others. 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.200 It adds to the confusion, doesn't it. It adds to 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:21.240 the confusion of what's occurred to you. The matter itself 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:26.120 attracted the such an intense interest from the community, the 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:29.560 public and also the media. Did you feel that that 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:33.880 pressure of your life has almost become very public? 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:38.839 I think when I slipped into becoming a public figure, 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:42.600 I remember that moment quite well because I felt anonymous. 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.200 I was still working in the school where I was abused. 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:47.520 I went and gave a police statement, and a week 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:49.880 later I took a week off, and a week later 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:51.760 I went back and continued teaching as if I didn't 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:53.760 do it, teaching in the very same building I was 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:56.920 abused in. So I was very private, so I thought 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:00.000 so when I became more public and I stepped out 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.800 with my story, all of a sudden people knew. But 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:05.800 at the same time, I think I grew stronger and 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:09.640 stronger as it became bigger, and I realized I'm fighting 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:11.520 for a story that's not just mine, but on behalf 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:13.479 of so many survivors and being a voice for so 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:18.200 many that it didn't matter anymore. And also the media 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.680 really helped us along the way, so we felt encouraged 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.039 by their support as well. We created some really good 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:25.279 relationships with some of them. 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:28.800 Okay, well, that's a good way to navigate yourself through 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:33.080 a very difficult situation. I'm thinking the attention that the 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:36.839 media in the public, or the fascination that the people 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.560 had in the actual case, was the perpetrator was a female, 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:45.279 because that's not the perception that we hear sexual abuse, 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:49.400 sexual assault. It's quite often linked to the man being 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:51.599 the perpetrator. In your case, it was a female. Do 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:52.760 you think that made a difference. 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:55.919 I think he opened the minds of so many that 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:57.880 may have not realized that a woman can be a 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:01.560 perpetrator in that way to that, and I think since 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:04.560 then I've become aware of quite a few female perpetrators, 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.280 but it felt like Malcholifel was one of the first, 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:10.040 and maybe because it was so publicized because of the extradition, 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:12.880 but it just I think he opened the minds of 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:15.880 many Australians and really around the world around female perpetrators 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:16.760 being right up there. 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.360 Tell me a little bit about your upbringing. 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:25.800 I was born first child in Australia. My parents immigrated 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:30.000 before I was born, from England, and I was born 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:32.200 after eight years of my parents not having any children, 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:34.320 so I was almost like the oldest of the second 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.720 lot of children to two older siblings. Four siblings two 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:42.600 years consecutively each below me. We had a very strictly 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:48.960 controlled upbringing. There's a version of, like I guess, being 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:53.040 strict and insulated because of the religion, but then there 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.280 was also the abuse on top of that. So unfortunately 0:07:56.280 --> 0:08:00.760 my parents were primarily my mother, very abusive to an 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:04.360 extent that is extremely severe, and that is probably what 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:07.800 is most difficult to talk about because I feel that 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:11.200 many don't have the capacity to understand the severity of 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.520 the abuse that we grew up with. And there's been 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.640 times where sharing something has been met with this belief 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.080 and that couldn't be possible. While no one could, no 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:22.080 mother could be like that. But that was our experience 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:24.920 growing up, and it was very hidden. No one knew 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.480 we turned up to school looking well dressed, and even 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:30.880 if it wasn't in trend, so to speak, but we 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:34.360 had the clothing. We had food, at least some of 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:36.959 the time. There were many times we didn't have food 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:41.520 for either punishment or just there wasn't and people could 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:43.800 not see that we had bruises, or we stayed home 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:45.839 from school or left home school early to go home 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:49.360 and clean. It wasn't obvious, It wasn't extremely obvious to 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:51.520 someone who wouldn't know to look out for signs of 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:53.800 what a child from an abuse home could look like. 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:57.760 It's a horrible situation that find yourself in, like a 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:01.280 childhood that should be support, nourishing, and to have that 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:03.640 I know when we spoke the other day, you said 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:08.320 it was difficult to talk about. There's a couple of 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.679 things that I picked up in the judge's sentencing comments 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.640 when he talked about the upbringing of yourself and your 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:19.080 two sisters. Comments are about the treatment that you find. 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:22.840 For me to read those out, okay. This is from 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:27.280 a Judge Gamble at the County Court of Victoria in 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:32.480 the reasons for sentencing and the complainants, and this is 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:35.960 from the Sensing report. The complainants were raised in an 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.920 ultra Orthodox Jewish family. They had other siblings, including older 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:44.600 sisters and younger brothers the complaints. The complaints were subjected 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:47.280 to a very difficult upbringing due to a cruel and 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:51.120 unpredictable way their mother behaved towards them. Each was mistreated 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:54.760 and witnessed the mistreatment of their siblings. Their mother neglected 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:58.560 and abused her children regularly, both physically and emotionally. She 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:02.920 also threatened them. The physical abuse included slaps, kicks, pinching, 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.040 as well as the use of objects, including straps. This 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:09.720 caused bruising in other marks. The complaints were expected to 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.560 do the housework and mistreat that if it was not 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:17.240 done perfectly and to their mother's liking. On occasions, she 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:19.400 would lock one or more of the children in the 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:22.800 dark cupboard, sometimes for lengthy periods. On other occasions, she 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:25.040 would tell one of the children that they were discarded 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:27.560 and no longer part of the family, and then get 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:29.680 her husband to drive that child to a park and 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:33.040 leave them there alone for a significant period. Food was 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.160 often withheld as a form of punishment and control for 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.920 each complaint, feeling hungry as an enduring childhood memory. On 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.040 any view, it was a miserable home life for the 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.280 complainants who were starved of love and affection and left 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:52.199 in a perpetual state of fear and confusion. It's pretty heavy. Yes, yeah, 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.120 that must have been part of the evidence that came 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:56.920 out that came out in the trial. 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.280 It did because it explained some context as to why 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.640 we were, I guess desperate for some love and attention. 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:07.880 Yeah. Yeah. And in my experience as a police officer 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.400 and from people that sat in the seat you're sitting 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:18.240 in now, it's apparent to me that perpetrators look for 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.040 people like yourself and your sisters that were in a 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.200 difficult environment, and that makes them easier to groom. Would 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:26.840 you agree with that perception. 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:30.640 Yes, I think there's also a part of that could 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:32.880 be obedient and listening to adults, which I think any 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.160 child will go through, regardless of their upbringing, that you 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:39.400 always listen to adults. So there's that. But definitely, Markolfers 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.920 saw and very quickly understood that our home life was 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:48.720 far from perfect and realized that if she gave us food, love, care, yeah, 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:49.840 then she had us. 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:51.920 So the school, Can you tell me a little bit 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.400 about the school and the community, because a lot of 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:58.120 people don't understand the ultra orthodox way that you were 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:00.360 brought up or the environment that you grew up, and 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:01.920 can you explain that a bit to us. 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:08.679 I'll try and explain that shortly. I would say it's 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:12.640 an insular community with not much influence from the external world. 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:15.480 What each home does will be according to the level 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:18.240 that they agree on. So there'll be some families that 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.160 will go to the public library. There'll be a lot 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.920 of families that don't. For example, when I grew up, 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.080 we were so strictly brought up we couldn't even have 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:27.839 a cold catalog allowed into our home, so that's how 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:31.040 insulated we were. There'll be families that won't have any 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.680 idea of the sport or what's going on in the 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:35.800 external world surrounding them, and there'll be others that do. 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:39.440 So it's just it's mostly a very insulated community with 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.440 our own kosher shops and butcher and even hairdressers and 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.240 services naiol salons, any of that kind of stuff you need. 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:48.559 Does not mean you cannot get services elsewhere, but you 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:51.360 would support the people in your community first if you can. 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:56.240 Boys and girls are kept strictly segregated, and the modesty 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:59.440 is a huge component of all of it. And in 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:03.160 saying that, then the girls will be dressed very modestly 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.200 from the age of three and up, and there is 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:09.839 no male interaction other than your family members at all 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:12.959 until you are in the dating or getting ready to 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.079 be engaged from birth pretty much. 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:20.600 So in that insular environment that you're living in, that's 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:24.040 the community, but also the school, so it wasn't sort 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.880 of you're living in an environment at home, but going 0:13:26.920 --> 0:13:29.400 to school and getting a more worldly view or a 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.720 wider view of what goes on. The school adopted that 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:36.400 approach too, so you and your sisters were very insulated 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:37.600 from what was going on. 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.840 Absolutely, it was my whole life was by home, my school, 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.840 my synagogue, or interrelated or connected all the same people 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:46.280 and nothing beyond that. 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:51.280 Yeah, that played in and again I picked up some 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:56.280 comments from the judges sensing report that played into your 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.839 naivety in regards to sexual matters as well, because of 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.400 the insular world that you were living in. 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.440 Absolutely, there was no sex education in our schools whatsoever. 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:11.600 So that would I would imagine when the offenses started occurring, 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.960 that would have caused confusion because you wouldn't have had 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:15.959 much understanding what was going on. 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:20.840 I had absolutely no idea what was Markolova's intentions or 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:24.240 what was happening. That's even before the dissociation stepped in. 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:27.280 Even just her putting her hand on my thigh or 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.720 my back, I would have not known that was a 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:32.960 red flag and that was her testing the boundaries to 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:35.880 see what my response would be. Yeah, I just frozen, 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:38.960 didn't say anything, didn't do anything, didn't understand anything. 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:43.200 It's so understandable when you describe in the environment in 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:47.360 which you grew up and how nagive you were, it 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:51.440 must have been so confusing for Yeah, the judge made 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:53.520 a comment and I'll refer to that because it was 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:57.480 a seven week trial and obviously delved very deeply into 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:02.000 all the issues relating to the offenses. Due to the ultra 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:06.200 orthodox upbringings, that complaints remained ignorant in sexual matters until 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.840 shortly before they got married. They received no form of 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.160 sexual education, either at home or at school. They had 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:16.320 no understanding of human anatomy, puberty, or sexual relations, and 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.280 didn't even know the words ascribed for intimate parts of 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.840 the body. And from a very early age they were 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.720 taught the girls and women must dress very modestly and 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.480 not reveal or discuss their bodies. The complainants ignorance in 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:32.320 sexual matters continued well into their late teenage years until 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:36.480 shortly before they got married. So why these offenses were 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:40.440 occurring against yourself and your sisters? You were ignorant to 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:46.880 what was going on? Absolutely, did you talk amongst yourselves? 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:48.960 Did No? 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.720 There was one incident where there was a school camp 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:53.960 and my sister slept in the same room she visited 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:55.960 just for one night. I was there as a young teacher, 0:15:56.680 --> 0:16:00.600 and she Michaelafe thought she was sleeping and she abused 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:02.720 me in the bed that I was sharing with her 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:04.440 while my sister was on the single bed, and that's 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:07.080 how my sister found out I was being abused. The 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:10.160 next morning, I gave her a look, just a look, 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.520 nothing else, and I went to find her something she 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:14.120 needed because she didn't bring all her stuff with her, 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.000 so I went to ask some other people for some stuff. 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:18.360 And I didn't want her to be left alone with 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:21.040 Markllifer and Machaelifa kicked me out the room and then 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:22.760 went into the bathroom where she was showering. 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.880 Right, how did you feel as the older sister. 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.120 At that moment, which is a very visual memory for me, 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:31.640 I felt awful because I did not want even if 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:33.840 I had no words, I just did not want Michael Life. 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:36.920 I learned with my sister, and that was my understanding 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:40.800 that Michael Life was abusing her, okay, and that was it. 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:46.680 Horrible, horrible situation. This went on for a number of years. 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.040 So when Marchalife entered my life, I was fifteen and 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:53.000 a half years old in year ten. What the courts 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:54.920 did not get to hear was that she continued to 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:58.680 abuse me post me getting married and being pregnant and 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:02.200 first child. And that is something that I'm not ashamed 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:04.919 anymore to share because even though I know that the 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:08.199 prosecution and potentially the defense made that decision based on 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.439 what the general understanding of abuse is, it felt at 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:14.320 the time extremely invalidating to me because the abuse didn't 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:19.760 stop when I was engaged. It continued. And what stopped 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:22.040 me from allowing her to abuse me the way that 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:24.760 she was to the extent that she was was her 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:27.840 lying herself down on me when I was pregnant, and 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:31.800 my naivety even then was thinking that her in my 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:33.600 mind fat, which was not a nice word to use, 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:36.440 so her large body was going to squash my baby. 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:41.320 And that is what instinctively did not allow me to 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:43.240 be in the same room with her again, to be 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.880 able to be in that position, not that the abuse stopped, 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:47.880 but that she was not able to lie full length 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.679 on top of me like that again. And that is 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.760 a very significant moment because I still didn't have words, 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:57.399 I still was extremely naive, but the protection of my 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:00.960 child is what allowed me to make sure that there 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:03.440 was some protection from the full amount of the abuse. 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.359 Then when she left in two thousand and eight, it 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:11.080 was simply because my sister was incredibly brave overseas, living 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:14.520 in Israel alone and disclosed to a social worker there. 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.359 That social worker could not believe that it was Markalalifa 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.560 because she knew she used to live in Australia herself 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:21.080 as well. 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:22.520 Right then she knew her. 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:27.600 She knew Markalifa personally, very personally. She called me to 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:31.360 confirm and I said yes, because I am too. And 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.800 that was And there's a bit of not quite remembering 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.240 properly whether Dussy my sister called me first and said, 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:38.760 you know, I'mah's going to call you or not. Both 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.240 of us don't remember the same exact what happened then, 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:44.639 but it was a shock. I went to school and 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.919 it felt like someone died. She had packed up and 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.400 gone in the middle of the night. But it didn't 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.600 happen straight away. It happened a couple days later, and 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.560 there was such a you could feel the tension in 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.199 the school. Markalifa was still there. They were trying to 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.399 figure out what to do. She was principal of the school. 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:03.760 And I don't remember who, and I wish I did 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.199 someone or somebody's prepared me that she might come to 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:10.280 my classroom and ask me what's going on. And that 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:12.640 is the last memory I have of her. She pulled 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:14.919 me out of class. It was the only time I've 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.240 ever seen her look scared, and she asked me, what's 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:19.560 going on. I stammered out some kind of reply that 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:22.520 I couldn't and I don't know, And that night she left. 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:26.520 Okay, I want to talk about how it came about 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:29.760 and how quickly and readily she left the country with 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:33.679 her with her family. So just breaking it down, your sister, 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:36.399 and let's put it in the timeframe. When were the 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:38.600 offenses occurring over what period of time? 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:40.320 So she arrived two thousand and one all the way 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.600 to two thousand and eight, and I was there the 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:43.400 entire time that. 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.640 She was, and what sort of age we're talking about 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:48.119 when the offenses started happening. 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:50.560 So the grooming started for last fifteen and a half, right, 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:52.879 so year ten and I was the first class that 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:56.000 she groomed, and then any class below me all the 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:56.960 way until she left. 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:02.760 Your sister's told the counselor over overseas made contact with you, 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:07.679 and then I would imagine mandatory reporting. She's reported. What 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:11.879 were the circumstances in which it came to life's attention 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:16.919 that there's been complaints made against her? How was that 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:17.359 dealt with. 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.600 I'm not sure what happened at that time. I just 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:23.120 know that it was within days one, two, three days 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:26.000 and she was gone. It was not long after my 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:30.040 sister disclosed that she left the country. The exact intricacies. 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:32.200 I don't know if anyone's ever going to be fully 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:33.840 honest about what happened in that time. 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:37.800 Yeah, of just breaking down, like the timeline that I've 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:42.160 looked for, the documentation that's available that your sister made 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:45.840 the disclosure to a counselor in late February two thousand 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:50.400 and eight. School board stood lifeer down on the fifth 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.399 of March two thousand and eight, and at one twenty 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:57.600 am the very next morning, and her family called a 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:01.960 flight to Israel. Yes, okay, when you found out that 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:05.800 Life had left the country with her family shortly after 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:08.120 it's been brought to the attention of the school, how 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:08.760 did you feel. 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:13.240 I wasn't ut a shock because being a victim of 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:16.320 hers but still being abused till the day she left, 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:24.000 there was no closure this is happening, and mentally preparing, okay, 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:26.720 I'm not going to see this person. So she was 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.760 there one day, she was not there the next. From 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:32.040