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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

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Speaker 1: I spoke to Nicole Meyer. It was a very difficult

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Speaker 1: conversation they have. You may not recognize Nicole's name, but

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Speaker 1: it's likely you've heard of the case. She was closely

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Speaker 1: linked to. Nicole and the two younger sisters, Elie Sapper

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Speaker 1: and Dassy Elrich, made allegations about being sexually assaulted by

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Speaker 1: their school principal, malch Leifa whilst at the ultra Orthodox

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Speaker 1: Jewish school called a Das Israel School. Just days after

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Speaker 1: the allegation came to light, Malchallifa fled back to Israel

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Speaker 1: with her family. That led to a thirteen year legal

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Speaker 1: battle to get Malcha Leifer extradited back to Australia to

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Speaker 1: face twenty nine charges relating to the sexual abuse of

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Speaker 1: Nicole and the sisters. There was a seven week trial

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Speaker 1: in August twenty twenty three where Malcal Leifer was convicted

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Speaker 1: of eighteen counts relating to the sexual abuse of Nicole's

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Speaker 1: two sisters, but was clear of the charges relating to herself.

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Speaker 1: We talked about the impact that this horrendous situation had

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Speaker 1: on Nicole. It was a deeply personal and troubling story,

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Speaker 1: but one I think is important to talk about. Before

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Speaker 1: we listened to this conversation, I need to reiterate that

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Speaker 1: Malchal Leifer was found not guilty of charges relating to

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Speaker 1: our guests Nicole Meyer. So in the eyes of the law,

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Speaker 1: these offenses were not proven. We need to acknowledge and

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Speaker 1: accept that. But if we're going to put our trust

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Speaker 1: in the court's decisions, let's also accept Malcolifho was found

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Speaker 1: guilty of eighteen counts of sexually abusing the Coles sisters

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Speaker 1: and was sentenced to fifteen years imprisonment. Nicole Meyer, welcome

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Speaker 1: to our Catch Killers. Thank you well, look, thank you

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Speaker 1: for coming in and talking about what's occurred to yourself

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Speaker 1: and your sisters. It must be difficult to talk about,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's important that people like yourself talk

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Speaker 1: about what happened.

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Speaker 2: It has been difficult initially, but now I find it

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Speaker 2: actually healing and I hope validating and supporting for any

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Speaker 2: other survivor that actually tunes in and listens.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we've had we've had previous victims and in my

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Speaker 1: time in the police, victims of sexual assault or survivors

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Speaker 1: of sexual assault that some people refer to it as.

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Speaker 1: I think there is strength in people speaking out because

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Speaker 1: quite often there's victim blame, the victims blame themselves for

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Speaker 1: whatever bizarre reason that, oh, this has happened to me.

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Speaker 1: But the more people that speak about that, I think

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Speaker 1: it makes people more comfortable that you are a victim

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Speaker 1: and it's nothing to do with the person that's been assaulted.

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Speaker 1: That's a person that's created that.

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Speaker 2: Environment, absolutely, and I think it also removes the shame.

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Speaker 2: There is so much shame when it comes to being

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Speaker 2: abused and not being able to say your story or

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Speaker 2: feeling too ashamed is a difficult one. So being able

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Speaker 2: to speak out give strength to others as well that

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Speaker 2: they don't have to stay quiet and don't have to

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Speaker 2: feel that shame.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, talk me through the shame. Why the shame? Where

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Speaker 1: do you think that comes from?

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Speaker 2: I think many victims survivors sometimes feel that the abuses

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Speaker 2: their fault or why they didn't say no, or why

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Speaker 2: they couldn't stop it, or why they didn't walk away.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot of shame associated with our self

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Speaker 2: blame and our self criticism and even myself. I reflect

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Speaker 2: back and I think where was my head in those years?

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Speaker 2: But when someone has such control over you, like Marc

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Speaker 2: life I did over me, there was no options of no,

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Speaker 2: and that was just one fact of why I couldn't

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Speaker 2: say no. So the shame is associated with could I

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Speaker 2: have done something different to stop it? Or why was

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Speaker 2: I chosen to be a victim? Or did I somehow

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Speaker 2: ask for it? Not really, but did I do something

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Speaker 2: that made that person think I was an easy target?

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Speaker 1: That's the insidious nature of a crime where the perpetrator

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Speaker 1: is grooming people too isn't it absolutely creating that doubt,

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Speaker 1: and that's where the nature of the crime and it

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Speaker 1: continues on that guilt that's attached to the victims because

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Speaker 1: of the way they've been groomed.

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Speaker 2: Yes, grooming is just the very beginning of the whole

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Speaker 2: abuse cycle. Unfortunately, and particularly with Markolaeifer. She was a woman,

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Speaker 2: and she was nurturing, and she was kind and she

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Speaker 2: was caring. So it wasn't just her coming in and

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Speaker 2: taking advantage. It was a slow build up of crossing

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Speaker 2: boundaries that I didn't even know were there until the

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Speaker 2: abuse started, and it all was disguised under care, love

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Speaker 2: and nurturing, which I was severely lucky from home, so

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Speaker 2: I was appreciative of that care, attention, love that she

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Speaker 2: was so freely giving to myself and others.

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Speaker 1: It adds to the confusion, doesn't it. It adds to

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Speaker 1: the confusion of what's occurred to you. The matter itself

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Speaker 1: attracted the such an intense interest from the community, the

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Speaker 1: public and also the media. Did you feel that that

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Speaker 1: pressure of your life has almost become very public?

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Speaker 2: I think when I slipped into becoming a public figure,

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Speaker 2: I remember that moment quite well because I felt anonymous.

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Speaker 2: I was still working in the school where I was abused.

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Speaker 2: I went and gave a police statement, and a week

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Speaker 2: later I took a week off, and a week later

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Speaker 2: I went back and continued teaching as if I didn't

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Speaker 2: do it, teaching in the very same building I was

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Speaker 2: abused in. So I was very private, so I thought

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Speaker 2: so when I became more public and I stepped out

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Speaker 2: with my story, all of a sudden people knew. But

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Speaker 2: at the same time, I think I grew stronger and

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Speaker 2: stronger as it became bigger, and I realized I'm fighting

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Speaker 2: for a story that's not just mine, but on behalf

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Speaker 2: of so many survivors and being a voice for so

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Speaker 2: many that it didn't matter anymore. And also the media

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Speaker 2: really helped us along the way, so we felt encouraged

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Speaker 2: by their support as well. We created some really good

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Speaker 2: relationships with some of them.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, that's a good way to navigate yourself through

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Speaker 1: a very difficult situation. I'm thinking the attention that the

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Speaker 1: media in the public, or the fascination that the people

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Speaker 1: had in the actual case, was the perpetrator was a female,

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Speaker 1: because that's not the perception that we hear sexual abuse,

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Speaker 1: sexual assault. It's quite often linked to the man being

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Speaker 1: the perpetrator. In your case, it was a female. Do

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Speaker 1: you think that made a difference.

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Speaker 2: I think he opened the minds of so many that

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Speaker 2: may have not realized that a woman can be a

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Speaker 2: perpetrator in that way to that, and I think since

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Speaker 2: then I've become aware of quite a few female perpetrators,

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Speaker 2: but it felt like Malcholifel was one of the first,

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Speaker 2: and maybe because it was so publicized because of the extradition,

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Speaker 2: but it just I think he opened the minds of

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Speaker 2: many Australians and really around the world around female perpetrators

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Speaker 2: being right up there.

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Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about your upbringing.

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Speaker 2: I was born first child in Australia. My parents immigrated

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Speaker 2: before I was born, from England, and I was born

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Speaker 2: after eight years of my parents not having any children,

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Speaker 2: so I was almost like the oldest of the second

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Speaker 2: lot of children to two older siblings. Four siblings two

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Speaker 2: years consecutively each below me. We had a very strictly

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Speaker 2: controlled upbringing. There's a version of, like I guess, being

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Speaker 2: strict and insulated because of the religion, but then there

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Speaker 2: was also the abuse on top of that. So unfortunately

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Speaker 2: my parents were primarily my mother, very abusive to an

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Speaker 2: extent that is extremely severe, and that is probably what

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Speaker 2: is most difficult to talk about because I feel that

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Speaker 2: many don't have the capacity to understand the severity of

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Speaker 2: the abuse that we grew up with. And there's been

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Speaker 2: times where sharing something has been met with this belief

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Speaker 2: and that couldn't be possible. While no one could, no

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Speaker 2: mother could be like that. But that was our experience

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Speaker 2: growing up, and it was very hidden. No one knew

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Speaker 2: we turned up to school looking well dressed, and even

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Speaker 2: if it wasn't in trend, so to speak, but we

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Speaker 2: had the clothing. We had food, at least some of

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Speaker 2: the time. There were many times we didn't have food

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Speaker 2: for either punishment or just there wasn't and people could

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Speaker 2: not see that we had bruises, or we stayed home

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Speaker 2: from school or left home school early to go home

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Speaker 2: and clean. It wasn't obvious, It wasn't extremely obvious to

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Speaker 2: someone who wouldn't know to look out for signs of

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Speaker 2: what a child from an abuse home could look like.

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Speaker 1: It's a horrible situation that find yourself in, like a

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Speaker 1: childhood that should be support, nourishing, and to have that

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Speaker 1: I know when we spoke the other day, you said

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Speaker 1: it was difficult to talk about. There's a couple of

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Speaker 1: things that I picked up in the judge's sentencing comments

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Speaker 1: when he talked about the upbringing of yourself and your

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Speaker 1: two sisters. Comments are about the treatment that you find.

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Speaker 1: For me to read those out, okay. This is from

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Speaker 1: a Judge Gamble at the County Court of Victoria in

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Speaker 1: the reasons for sentencing and the complainants, and this is

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Speaker 1: from the Sensing report. The complainants were raised in an

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Speaker 1: ultra Orthodox Jewish family. They had other siblings, including older

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Speaker 1: sisters and younger brothers the complaints. The complaints were subjected

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Speaker 1: to a very difficult upbringing due to a cruel and

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Speaker 1: unpredictable way their mother behaved towards them. Each was mistreated

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Speaker 1: and witnessed the mistreatment of their siblings. Their mother neglected

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Speaker 1: and abused her children regularly, both physically and emotionally. She

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Speaker 1: also threatened them. The physical abuse included slaps, kicks, pinching,

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Speaker 1: as well as the use of objects, including straps. This

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Speaker 1: caused bruising in other marks. The complaints were expected to

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Speaker 1: do the housework and mistreat that if it was not

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Speaker 1: done perfectly and to their mother's liking. On occasions, she

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Speaker 1: would lock one or more of the children in the

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Speaker 1: dark cupboard, sometimes for lengthy periods. On other occasions, she

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Speaker 1: would tell one of the children that they were discarded

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Speaker 1: and no longer part of the family, and then get

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Speaker 1: her husband to drive that child to a park and

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Speaker 1: leave them there alone for a significant period. Food was

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Speaker 1: often withheld as a form of punishment and control for

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Speaker 1: each complaint, feeling hungry as an enduring childhood memory. On

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Speaker 1: any view, it was a miserable home life for the

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Speaker 1: complainants who were starved of love and affection and left

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Speaker 1: in a perpetual state of fear and confusion. It's pretty heavy. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that must have been part of the evidence that came

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Speaker 1: out that came out in the trial.

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Speaker 2: It did because it explained some context as to why

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Speaker 2: we were, I guess desperate for some love and attention.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And in my experience as a police officer

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Speaker 1: and from people that sat in the seat you're sitting

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Speaker 1: in now, it's apparent to me that perpetrators look for

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Speaker 1: people like yourself and your sisters that were in a

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Speaker 1: difficult environment, and that makes them easier to groom. Would

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Speaker 1: you agree with that perception.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think there's also a part of that could

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Speaker 2: be obedient and listening to adults, which I think any

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Speaker 2: child will go through, regardless of their upbringing, that you

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Speaker 2: always listen to adults. So there's that. But definitely, Markolfers

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Speaker 2: saw and very quickly understood that our home life was

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Speaker 2: far from perfect and realized that if she gave us food, love, care, yeah,

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Speaker 2: then she had us.

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Speaker 1: So the school, Can you tell me a little bit

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Speaker 1: about the school and the community, because a lot of

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Speaker 1: people don't understand the ultra orthodox way that you were

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Speaker 1: brought up or the environment that you grew up, and

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Speaker 1: can you explain that a bit to us.

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Speaker 2: I'll try and explain that shortly. I would say it's

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Speaker 2: an insular community with not much influence from the external world.

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Speaker 2: What each home does will be according to the level

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Speaker 2: that they agree on. So there'll be some families that

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Speaker 2: will go to the public library. There'll be a lot

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Speaker 2: of families that don't. For example, when I grew up,

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Speaker 2: we were so strictly brought up we couldn't even have

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Speaker 2: a cold catalog allowed into our home, so that's how

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Speaker 2: insulated we were. There'll be families that won't have any

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Speaker 2: idea of the sport or what's going on in the

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Speaker 2: external world surrounding them, and there'll be others that do.

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Speaker 2: So it's just it's mostly a very insulated community with

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Speaker 2: our own kosher shops and butcher and even hairdressers and

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Speaker 2: services naiol salons, any of that kind of stuff you need.

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Speaker 2: Does not mean you cannot get services elsewhere, but you

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Speaker 2: would support the people in your community first if you can.

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Speaker 2: Boys and girls are kept strictly segregated, and the modesty

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Speaker 2: is a huge component of all of it. And in

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Speaker 2: saying that, then the girls will be dressed very modestly

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Speaker 2: from the age of three and up, and there is

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Speaker 2: no male interaction other than your family members at all

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Speaker 2: until you are in the dating or getting ready to

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Speaker 2: be engaged from birth pretty much.

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Speaker 1: So in that insular environment that you're living in, that's

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Speaker 1: the community, but also the school, so it wasn't sort

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Speaker 1: of you're living in an environment at home, but going

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Speaker 1: to school and getting a more worldly view or a

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Speaker 1: wider view of what goes on. The school adopted that

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Speaker 1: approach too, so you and your sisters were very insulated

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Speaker 1: from what was going on.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it was my whole life was by home, my school,

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Speaker 2: my synagogue, or interrelated or connected all the same people

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Speaker 2: and nothing beyond that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that played in and again I picked up some

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Speaker 1: comments from the judges sensing report that played into your

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Speaker 1: naivety in regards to sexual matters as well, because of

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Speaker 1: the insular world that you were living in.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, there was no sex education in our schools whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: So that would I would imagine when the offenses started occurring,

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Speaker 1: that would have caused confusion because you wouldn't have had

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Speaker 1: much understanding what was going on.

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Speaker 2: I had absolutely no idea what was Markolova's intentions or

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Speaker 2: what was happening. That's even before the dissociation stepped in.

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Speaker 2: Even just her putting her hand on my thigh or

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Speaker 2: my back, I would have not known that was a

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Speaker 2: red flag and that was her testing the boundaries to

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Speaker 2: see what my response would be. Yeah, I just frozen,

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Speaker 2: didn't say anything, didn't do anything, didn't understand anything.

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Speaker 1: It's so understandable when you describe in the environment in

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Speaker 1: which you grew up and how nagive you were, it

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Speaker 1: must have been so confusing for Yeah, the judge made

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Speaker 1: a comment and I'll refer to that because it was

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Speaker 1: a seven week trial and obviously delved very deeply into

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Speaker 1: all the issues relating to the offenses. Due to the ultra

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Speaker 1: orthodox upbringings, that complaints remained ignorant in sexual matters until

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Speaker 1: shortly before they got married. They received no form of

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Speaker 1: sexual education, either at home or at school. They had

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Speaker 1: no understanding of human anatomy, puberty, or sexual relations, and

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Speaker 1: didn't even know the words ascribed for intimate parts of

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Speaker 1: the body. And from a very early age they were

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Speaker 1: taught the girls and women must dress very modestly and

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Speaker 1: not reveal or discuss their bodies. The complainants ignorance in

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Speaker 1: sexual matters continued well into their late teenage years until

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Speaker 1: shortly before they got married. So why these offenses were

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Speaker 1: occurring against yourself and your sisters? You were ignorant to

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Speaker 1: what was going on? Absolutely, did you talk amongst yourselves?

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Speaker 1: Did No?

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Speaker 2: There was one incident where there was a school camp

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Speaker 2: and my sister slept in the same room she visited

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Speaker 2: just for one night. I was there as a young teacher,

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Speaker 2: and she Michaelafe thought she was sleeping and she abused

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Speaker 2: me in the bed that I was sharing with her

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Speaker 2: while my sister was on the single bed, and that's

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Speaker 2: how my sister found out I was being abused. The

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Speaker 2: next morning, I gave her a look, just a look,

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Speaker 2: nothing else, and I went to find her something she

296
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Speaker 2: needed because she didn't bring all her stuff with her,

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Speaker 2: so I went to ask some other people for some stuff.

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Speaker 2: And I didn't want her to be left alone with

299
00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,040
Speaker 2: Markllifer and Machaelifa kicked me out the room and then

300
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Speaker 2: went into the bathroom where she was showering.

301
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Speaker 1: Right, how did you feel as the older sister.

302
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Speaker 2: At that moment, which is a very visual memory for me,

303
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Speaker 2: I felt awful because I did not want even if

304
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Speaker 2: I had no words, I just did not want Michael Life.

305
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Speaker 2: I learned with my sister, and that was my understanding

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Speaker 2: that Michael Life was abusing her, okay, and that was it.

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Speaker 1: Horrible, horrible situation. This went on for a number of years.

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Speaker 2: So when Marchalife entered my life, I was fifteen and

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Speaker 2: a half years old in year ten. What the courts

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Speaker 2: did not get to hear was that she continued to

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Speaker 2: abuse me post me getting married and being pregnant and

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Speaker 2: first child. And that is something that I'm not ashamed

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Speaker 2: anymore to share because even though I know that the

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Speaker 2: prosecution and potentially the defense made that decision based on

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Speaker 2: what the general understanding of abuse is, it felt at

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Speaker 2: the time extremely invalidating to me because the abuse didn't

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Speaker 2: stop when I was engaged. It continued. And what stopped

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Speaker 2: me from allowing her to abuse me the way that

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Speaker 2: she was to the extent that she was was her

320
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Speaker 2: lying herself down on me when I was pregnant, and

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Speaker 2: my naivety even then was thinking that her in my

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Speaker 2: mind fat, which was not a nice word to use,

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Speaker 2: so her large body was going to squash my baby.

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Speaker 2: And that is what instinctively did not allow me to

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Speaker 2: be in the same room with her again, to be

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Speaker 2: able to be in that position, not that the abuse stopped,

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Speaker 2: but that she was not able to lie full length

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Speaker 2: on top of me like that again. And that is

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Speaker 2: a very significant moment because I still didn't have words,

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Speaker 2: I still was extremely naive, but the protection of my

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Speaker 2: child is what allowed me to make sure that there

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Speaker 2: was some protection from the full amount of the abuse.

333
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Speaker 2: Then when she left in two thousand and eight, it

334
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Speaker 2: was simply because my sister was incredibly brave overseas, living

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Speaker 2: in Israel alone and disclosed to a social worker there.

336
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Speaker 2: That social worker could not believe that it was Markalalifa

337
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Speaker 2: because she knew she used to live in Australia herself

338
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Speaker 2: as well.

339
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Speaker 1: Right then she knew her.

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Speaker 2: She knew Markalifa personally, very personally. She called me to

341
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Speaker 2: confirm and I said yes, because I am too. And

342
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Speaker 2: that was And there's a bit of not quite remembering

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Speaker 2: properly whether Dussy my sister called me first and said,

344
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Speaker 2: you know, I'mah's going to call you or not. Both

345
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,240
Speaker 2: of us don't remember the same exact what happened then,

346
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Speaker 2: but it was a shock. I went to school and

347
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Speaker 2: it felt like someone died. She had packed up and

348
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Speaker 2: gone in the middle of the night. But it didn't

349
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Speaker 2: happen straight away. It happened a couple days later, and

350
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Speaker 2: there was such a you could feel the tension in

351
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Speaker 2: the school. Markalifa was still there. They were trying to

352
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Speaker 2: figure out what to do. She was principal of the school.

353
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Speaker 2: And I don't remember who, and I wish I did

354
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,199
Speaker 2: someone or somebody's prepared me that she might come to

355
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,280
Speaker 2: my classroom and ask me what's going on. And that

356
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,640
Speaker 2: is the last memory I have of her. She pulled

357
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Speaker 2: me out of class. It was the only time I've

358
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,240
Speaker 2: ever seen her look scared, and she asked me, what's

359
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 2: going on. I stammered out some kind of reply that

360
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,520
Speaker 2: I couldn't and I don't know, And that night she left.

361
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Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk about how it came about

362
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Speaker 1: and how quickly and readily she left the country with

363
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Speaker 1: her with her family. So just breaking it down, your sister,

364
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,399
Speaker 1: and let's put it in the timeframe. When were the

365
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Speaker 1: offenses occurring over what period of time?

366
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Speaker 2: So she arrived two thousand and one all the way

367
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Speaker 2: to two thousand and eight, and I was there the

368
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:43,400
Speaker 2: entire time that.

369
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Speaker 1: She was, and what sort of age we're talking about

370
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Speaker 1: when the offenses started happening.

371
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Speaker 2: So the grooming started for last fifteen and a half, right,

372
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,879
Speaker 2: so year ten and I was the first class that

373
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,000
Speaker 2: she groomed, and then any class below me all the

374
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:56,960
Speaker 2: way until she left.

375
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Speaker 1: Your sister's told the counselor over overseas made contact with you,

376
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,679
Speaker 1: and then I would imagine mandatory reporting. She's reported. What

377
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,879
Speaker 1: were the circumstances in which it came to life's attention

378
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,919
Speaker 1: that there's been complaints made against her? How was that

379
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:17,359
Speaker 1: dealt with.

380
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what happened at that time. I just

381
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,120
Speaker 2: know that it was within days one, two, three days

382
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 2: and she was gone. It was not long after my

383
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 2: sister disclosed that she left the country. The exact intricacies.

384
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Speaker 2: I don't know if anyone's ever going to be fully

385
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 2: honest about what happened in that time.

386
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, of just breaking down, like the timeline that I've

387
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:42,160
Speaker 1: looked for, the documentation that's available that your sister made

388
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,840
Speaker 1: the disclosure to a counselor in late February two thousand

389
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:50,400
Speaker 1: and eight. School board stood lifeer down on the fifth

390
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,399
Speaker 1: of March two thousand and eight, and at one twenty

391
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,600
Speaker 1: am the very next morning, and her family called a

392
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 1: flight to Israel. Yes, okay, when you found out that

393
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 1: Life had left the country with her family shortly after

394
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,120
Speaker 1: it's been brought to the attention of the school, how

395
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 1: did you feel.

396
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,240
Speaker 2: I wasn't ut a shock because being a victim of

397
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 2: hers but still being abused till the day she left,

398
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 2: there was no closure this is happening, and mentally preparing, okay,

399
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 2: I'm not going to see this person. So she was

400
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 2: there one day, she was not there the next. From

401
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 2: an external perspective. It's almost like I was in a

402
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,640
Speaker 2: de realization kind of perspective. I'm watching hordes of teachers

403
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 2: and students go to the main lunch room or gathering

404
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 2: room and everyone's in a state of grief, and I'm like,

405
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,879
Speaker 2: this happened because of me. This happened because of my sister.

406
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 2: This is something I had a part of, but no

407
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,360
Speaker 2: one knows that, so I didn't know where to place myself.

408
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 2: It was the oddest feeling. And no one has ever

409
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 2: actually asked me that question. You are the first person

410
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 2: that has. And it was just there was shock, there

411
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 2: was shame, There was I wonder if anyone's going to

412
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 2: find out that it's me. My sisters weren't in the school.

413
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 2: They were like I was the only out of the

414
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 2: three of us still working in the school, and what

415
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 2: does that mean for my life?

416
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 1: Like?

417
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 2: What have I set in motion?

418
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 1: It's a lot of pressure to carry because I would

419
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,200
Speaker 1: imagine the rumors and people would be speculating on what's

420
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 1: happened here, and you've got the yeah, you understand what's happened.

421
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:28,639
Speaker 1: It must have been very difficult.

422
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 2: It was incredibly difficult. And the person who stepped up

423
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,920
Speaker 2: to be interim principle actually took me to a therapist

424
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 2: one session and she I was so numb and associated

425
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 2: and disconnected. She took out cars and said, tell me

426
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 2: your feelings from these Teddy Bear cars. I said, I

427
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 2: don't do Teddy Bear cards. And that was the end

428
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 2: of the session and I never went to therapy again

429
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 2: until years later. But it was like, no feelings, no cars,

430
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,880
Speaker 2: I'm in shock. Like back then, I wish I could

431
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 2: say to her, you're dealing with a victim who's just

432
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 2: had her life turned upside down, who has no idea

433
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 2: what's just happened, doesn't even understand the impact of the abuse,

434
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 2: and asking her to describe her feelings not happening okay.

435
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 1: On teddy Bear cards. I like that police investigation was

436
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 1: not commenced until mid twenty eleven when your sister came

437
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 1: forward with and statements were taken around June twenty eleven.

438
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: So I'm just trying to understand this sister's report that

439
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: counselor has reached out to you. Obviously a formal report

440
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: has been that all the school has been notified, there's

441
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 1: been it's obviously been discussed, and then life has left

442
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: the school and went to Israel. It's not till a

443
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,399
Speaker 1: couple of years after that it's reported to the police,

444
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: and who reported it to the police.

445
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 2: So I just went back to normal work, having kids,

446
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 2: my sister living overseas, and other sister getting married, living

447
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 2: so it's just it was just this complete disconnect. It

448
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,959
Speaker 2: was a shock. I remember being in the school and

449
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 2: everyone in an utter shock, and a and principles stepping

450
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 2: up and everyone in shock, like it was a huge

451
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 2: shock and displacement in the school. But then it just settled.

452
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 2: School had to keep going on, kids still had to

453
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 2: be taught, life still had to keep happening. And then

454
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 2: my sister, my youngest sister, they were youngest of us three,

455
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 2: gave a police statement. She was the first one. I

456
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 2: hadn't even entertained the idea of giving a police statement

457
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 2: when she did.

458
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: Did you know that was an option for you? Did

459
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: that was and I'm looking at the world in which

460
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: you grew up, Did you say that as something that

461
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: you could have reached out to the place I.

462
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: Always had a burning desire for justice to happen. When

463
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 2: that exactly started, I don't know, But no, I don't

464
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 2: know if I would have ever initiated going forward if

465
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 2: my sister hadn't first simply because shame, feared association, and

466
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 2: just not even knowing that is something I could do.

467
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 2: It was not even it was never given to me.

468
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 2: Like I've had people ask me directly, well, if they

469
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 2: knew that you were a victim right before she left,

470
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 2: why didn't you say anything? I said, No one came

471
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 2: to me and said, can we go to the police.

472
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 2: I'll support you, Let's tell them what happened. So that weekend,

473
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 2: no one gave me that option. I didn't even know

474
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 2: that was available.

475
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: Okay, I understand what you're saying now sitting down talking

476
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: to you, But I also understand why people would be saying, well,

477
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: why didn't you go to the police. But that's why

478
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: I think the judges made such a point of talking

479
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 1: about your upbringing and the environment in which you grew

480
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: up with. But yeah, that to me makes the offense, well,

481
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 1: it doesn't make any more sinister. It's an evil offense

482
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: to start with. But clearly she was praying on exactly

483
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 1: the things that were holding you back from going to

484
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 1: the police. Is your ignorance, yes, and not understanding. Okay,

485
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: So your sisters decided to go to the police. Did

486
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 1: the police reach out to you or did you go

487
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 1: to the police?

488
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 2: Could be they did. I don't think they did. Ellie

489
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: went first, Dust a couple months later, and finally, on

490
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 2: the day I found out I was young pregnant with

491
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 2: my youngest, I went to the police station and gave

492
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 2: my report. Yes, it was so traumatizing, and I think

493
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 2: any survivor victims vive, but that listens to this will understand.

494
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 2: I actually have no memory of giving my police statement.

495
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 2: I don't know who took it. I don't know what

496
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 2: I said. Obviously I've got the papers, but I don't

497
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 2: have any physical or visual memory at all of doing that.

498
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 2: That's how hard it was for me to step out

499
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 2: of my entire insulated, closed private life and do something

500
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 2: so extreme, even though it felt right to do. And

501
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: that was the first time in my life, even post

502
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: all my babies. I took a week off work for

503
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 2: mental health needs and I didn't even know I needed.

504
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 2: I just knew I couldn't go back to work for

505
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 2: a week and I did somehow to figure out what

506
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 2: I had done. Yeah, even when I was doing the

507
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 2: committal hearing before trial, the defense lawyer was saying did

508
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: you sign that statement? And I was like, well, my

509
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 2: signature was there, so I did. But I actually have

510
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 2: no memory of doing that, because that's how traumatizing giving

511
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: my first statement was.

512
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: And that's not unusual for traumatized people, not at all

513
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: in situations like that. It's difficult to understand unless you've

514
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 1: been in that situation, but it's not unusual. Okay, so

515
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: we've got now a police investigation. Your sisters have come forward,

516
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: the three of you. Did you think there would be

517
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: How did you think you were going to get justice?

518
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,239
Speaker 1: Given the fact she's gone back to Israel? Did they

519
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: explain the complexities of extraditions and all that type of thing.

520
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 2: I smile Riley now because I was so trusting and

521
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 2: so innocent, and when I heard the words, sure, we'll

522
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: send a state mister Canberra, get the paperwork done, go

523
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 2: to Israel and get her, I was like, great, story over.

524
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: I had absolutely no idea, and I can still remember

525
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: the relief I felt. How simple that all was. How

526
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 2: long can it take it to get paper stamped in

527
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 2: camera and then just pick her up? It was like

528
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 2: one plus one And it did not happen like that

529
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 2: at all. It was the most. It I don't know

530
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: the word. It pulled me down so much in my

531
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 2: entire life was surrounding around dates, around who's the next

532
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 2: police contact that we can keep in contact with, because

533
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 2: it changed a couple of times over the years. Who's

534
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 2: ignoring us or giving us any update? What's happening, what's

535
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 2: happening in Israel? Why is there complete silence? It was

536
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 2: three years of utter waiting and silence and hopelessness, and

537
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 2: it's never going to happen. But we didn't understand why

538
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 2: because we didn't have enough information happening, what was going.

539
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: On, the complexities of trying to organize this. We'll talk

540
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: about the extradition and how long it took, but before

541
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: we do, can we just break down. Can you explain

542
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 1: to people that what actually happened to you we've talked

543
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: about in a general sense, but the grooming started and

544
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: that life would take you the locations where you're on

545
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: your own, you'd go to a place on a Sunday

546
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,959
Speaker 1: for extra tutoring or schooling. Can you explain the pattern

547
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: that she created that allowed her to commit those offenses

548
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: against you and what it actually involved.

549
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 2: Recently, through my healing journey, I've actually thought I could

550
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 2: write a book on the seven years that I with

551
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: Marko Loefer because it is so extensive, and the coercive

552
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 2: control and the impact and the control she had in

553
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 2: every single area of my life is extremely difficult to

554
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: understand unless it's really fully understood. So she entered my

555
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: life when I was in year ten. She started immediately

556
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 2: that year already crossing boundaries like no teacher ever put

557
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 2: their hands on the students shoulders to push them down

558
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: the corridor. No teacher ever touched a student full stop.

559
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 2: It just wasn't in our school female and we didn't

560
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: have male teachers. It just wasn't. So she already with everyone,

561
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: showed that she was that kind of touchy, feely person, caring, smiling, chaotic,

562
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: but she was just everywhere and anywhere, interested in everyone,

563
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 2: very quickly made favorites, and those favorites shifted and changed

564
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 2: over time, and everyone knew who her favorites were. Pulled

565
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 2: kids out of class to ask them to do errands

566
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: or to get little jobs, or help them with the

567
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: news letter or all that kind of stuff. Then we

568
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: moved to them back to the main building with the

569
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 2: rest of the school, and she was still the teacher,

570
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 2: and she would have this little office between our classroom

571
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: and she would just like be on the phone and

572
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 2: just like keep an eye out. You just somehow knew

573
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 2: that her eyes were always everywhere, and if she wanted you,

574
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter where you were in the school, she

575
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 2: would send someone to find you and bring you to her.

576
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: So you were never quite free of her. And then

577
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: she became principal of the actual school, so that was

578
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 2: a whole messy fiasco where she literally kicked off the

579
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: other principle and proved that she was better to do

580
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: that job. And once she became principal of the school,

581
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 2: there was no stopping her. I went through year twelve,

582
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 2: and that's when there was serious abuse happening already, and

583
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: she was just everyone's favorite. Like she groomed a community.

584
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 2: She groomed the teachers, she groomed all the students. It

585
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 2: was missus life for this and missus life for that.

586
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 2: There will always be a couple that said, oh no,

587
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: they thought she wasn't so great, and I can understand that,

588
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 2: But for everyone else, I would say she groomed majority

589
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 2: of the community with her actions and behaviors where she

590
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: was her visibility was always there with all the functions

591
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 2: and events that were happening. And I was definitely one

592
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 2: of her favorites and should pull me out of class,

593
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: she would lock her door, she would pull down the blinds,

594
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 2: and then she would abuse for an hour and then

595
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: send back the class. She would be red faced. I'd

596
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: be red faced, and no one blinked because you wouldn't

597
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 2: even for a second think that's what she's doing. So

598
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 2: and it wasn't just me, it was allegedly many other

599
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: students as well. And it's kind of you got to

600
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: know which students she took privately, because you just notice

601
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: if you're one, you notice who else is being pulled in.

602
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 2: And then I went to first year teaching. She was very,

603
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 2: very proud. She has six girls going from year twelve

604
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: right into the school the next year. This is the

605
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: product of why she's become head of the school. It

606
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: was a huge moment for her. We took over the

607
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 2: school three four, five, six, seven eight. We were like

608
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 2: amazing powerhouses of teachers. We had teacher training. We taught

609
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: the Jewish studies, so we weren't qualified to these general studies.

610
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 2: They had the qualified teachers for that, but we did

611
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: a really good job. I mean I loved teaching. I

612
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: was passionate, and I loved every minute of it. I

613
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: had this life that I loved of teaching, and I

614
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 2: respected her knowledge and everything. And this is what was

615
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 2: brought up to me in court. Here you are writing

616
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: Marc Life, I thank you letters for helping you, and

617
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: at the same time you're saying you're being abused. And

618
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: I was like, that was two different lives. The abuse

619
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 2: was a whole life of its own that was happening,

620
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: completely disconnected from that. I was giving my everything to

621
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 2: my job, and then even disconnected to that the abuse

622
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 2: that was going on at home. It was like I

623
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: was my whole life was my teaching, and she completely

624
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 2: invaded every part of that. And the big shame of

625
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: the whole case is that no one, all the witnesses

626
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 2: in the school, no one came forward and said I

627
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 2: saw this or I saw that, even retrospectively. And that's

628
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: what is very deeply hurtful and upsetting, because there were

629
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: witnesses that didn't know they were witnesses at the time,

630
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 2: but over the years had so many opportunities to come

631
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: forward and say, yes, we saw this, and I saw

632
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: Nicole being pulled out of class by macaul Life as

633
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 2: soon as the bell rang when her class finished, And

634
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 2: that did happen. And I saw this person in camp

635
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 2: in a room with her alone. I saw that person.

636
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 2: There were witnesses that did see things, even if they

637
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 2: didn't quite know what they were seeing at the time.

638
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 2: And then I taught year one of teaching, absolutely loved it.

639
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: Year two, in the second year of teaching, I actually

640
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: got engaged. And that I will say this because I

641
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 2: want to explain the level of her control. I got

642
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 2: engaged to the son of the person she kicked off

643
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 2: the principle right. She broke that engagement.

644
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: She was the cause.

645
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 2: Yes, she managed to convince my mother that he's not

646
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 2: appropriate for X y Z. She even pulled in another

647
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: prestigious woman who happened to be visiting from overseas and

648
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 2: helping with the school at that time, got her to

649
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 2: sit down and talk to me. I was given a

650
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: phone and told call the boy and tell them you're

651
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 2: not getting married in five weeks.

652
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: It's horrible control.

653
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: That is the level. And I was given a whole

654
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: paper of all the sins he did, poor thing that

655
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,239
Speaker 2: he didn't do. There were no sins, and I had

656
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 2: to read that to him and that was it.

657
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: I'm speculating here, but a motive for that, whether it's

658
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: jealousy or whether she's concerned that someone that she's made

659
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: an enemy to and things might pass between you and

660
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: him and it might lead to her being discovered. Correct,

661
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: So she's moving all these things around just to cover

662
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: up her actions. And just take you back to a

663
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: couple of things you said there where people had seen

664
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: things or yeah, you both go of students taken out

665
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: of out of class, and then an office and comes

666
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: out red face, and the principal's red faced. These are

667
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: red flags, aren't they? These should be warning signs. And

668
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: I think the days are gone where people can just say, oh, well,

669
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't sure, so I didn't report that.

670
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 1: What do you say to those people that have seen that,

671
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 1: that suspect something that's going on that didn't speak out.

672
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 2: I will say to anyone there isn't any educational position

673
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 2: or anywhere. Really, if you sent something, go and talk

674
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,919
Speaker 2: to someone about it. Don't hold it to yourself, because

675
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 2: the damage that you can be causing by your silence

676
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 2: is more harmful than you can imagine red flags are

677
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 2: they're nonverbal. They do happen, and we see with abuse

678
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 2: cases coming out like the childcare centers, how many people

679
00:34:58,120 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: have said, oh, they saw this or they wrote this,

680
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 2: said this. We do as humans, we do notice things.

681
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: Sometimes we don't, but when we do act on it.

682
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 2: Talk to someone, talk to your superior, talk to a friend,

683
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: and ask advice and then decide together what's the best

684
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 2: course of action. But don't don't just keep it to yourself,

685
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 2: because that is what is most damaging.

686
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, the role that she created and the way that

687
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: you've described her, she sunds like a larger than life character.

688
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: And I'm just it's annoying me for of it because

689
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 1: I can imagine the type of person you're talking about,

690
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: the chaotic, and she's always touchy, handy, handy on kids.

691
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: But that's just her. That's the way they cover their actions,

692
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: isn't it.

693
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 2: Yes, And she ran the school so chaotically, but somehow

694
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: it worked. She would literally be giving me material right

695
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,280
Speaker 2: before lesson that she asked me to substitute five minutes

696
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 2: before and then race into class and teach, and then

697
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 2: she'd be working out timetables middle of the night and call

698
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 2: me and ask her to help with that, or writing

699
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 2: news letters, or ask me to help with policy and

700
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 2: the legal stuff that she had to fill out or

701
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 2: the admin stuff, and I would help her with that.

702
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 2: So I was really her, I would say, her assistant

703
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 2: in a way, with the amount of work and help

704
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: that I did for her in every possible way. But

705
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 2: that was also her involvement in my life in every

706
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 2: possible way.

707
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 1: You use the word coersive, and there's legislation that's come

708
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,439
Speaker 1: into a lot of states around the country with relationships,

709
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: where people are in relationships and the need for that

710
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: coercive control and the police to have those powers. What

711
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 1: you're describing there sort of ticks of boxes. It's coercive control.

712
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: It's not in a domestic relationship, but it's coercive control

713
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: in the environment you were working. Would you agree with

714
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: that absolutely?

715
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 2: Because there was no decision and no movement that I

716
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,760
Speaker 2: made without her saying it was okay or without knowing

717
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 2: she would have an opinion about it. After and even

718
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 2: when I got married, there was a time she couldn't

719
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 2: get hold of me on my phone. She stalked me

720
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 2: to find where I was where she thought I was.

721
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 2: Now I happened to be somewhere private that I didn't

722
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: want her to know where I was that moment, and

723
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 2: she came careening around the corner with someone that drove

724
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: another victim of hers. And as I walked out that

725
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 2: building she saw where I was, she was satisfied have

726
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 2: not had my phone not available to be telling her

727
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: where I was.

728
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: Did you ever have any conversations with her about, yeah,

729
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: I'm uncomfortable with this or was that just sort of

730
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: it was an area you just couldn't go.

731
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely none, It was no. There was no possibility to

732
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 2: say no one time in the whole seven years that

733
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 2: I knew her. I had a little bit of backbone.

734
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 2: I wanted to go and work somewhere else other than

735
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 2: the squl was working in to earn more money, to

736
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 2: have an opportunity to work in a different Jewish school.

737
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 2: She shut that down so fast, and then to punish me,

738
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: she took away a secretarial job that I did have

739
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 2: in the school was working in and gave it to

740
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 2: some new person that had come in from overseas as

741
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 2: well to curry favor because her father was on the board.

742
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 2: So it was all, you know, complex in that way,

743
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 2: and I just knew I won't even try and cross

744
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,959
Speaker 2: her because that was the financial impact of if I did.

745
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: How did she have the standing within the school? Like

746
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: she came over what you did? You say? She came

747
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: without one to teach and then she was there until

748
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: two thousand and light and rose to be the principal

749
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: of the school. What was her backstory before she came

750
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: across to the school.

751
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 2: She was teaching before she came to Australia. She had

752
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 2: a lot of knowledge. She probably had some degrees and

753
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 2: stuff that she did when she finished school. And she

754
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 2: was very religious. So she looked the part, yeah, but

755
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 2: she definitely wasn't the part at all. So she looked

756
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 2: like someone that had good values, good attributes, and was

757
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 2: a respectful person of the faith and the religion and

758
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 2: would inspire, would inspire the students under her care to

759
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 2: be more connected to God and religion through there, through

760
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: her actions and the things that she's doing with them.

761
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,240
Speaker 2: The learning programs and they were all all those programs

762
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 2: were amazing. It's just it was all covering up as

763
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 2: well a lot of what she was trying to get

764
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 2: away with underneath, because deeply underneath she was evil. She

765
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 2: was not what she was portraying to the community and

766
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 2: the school. So she earned the respect by her actions

767
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 2: and her knowledge and her wisdom in the Jewish religion

768
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 2: and all the textual stuff that she knew that in

769
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 2: everything else.

770
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: Hypocrisy of it too, Yes, saying that this is the

771
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: values on following them being completely opposite. Is there any

772
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: suggestion that I'm speculating here, but any suggestion that there

773
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: was any rumors about her or any knowledge of this

774
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 1: type of behavior before she came to Australia.

775
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 2: Only after stuff came out here. Yes, some of her

776
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 2: former alleged victims overseas did contact a reporter, but the

777
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: statue of limitations were over, so it wasn't something they

778
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: were willing to come forward because it was of course,

779
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 2: it's an uproot upheopal to their lives, and if they

780
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 2: can't do anything with information, they don't just want to

781
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 2: give their story. Yeah, but they did affirm that that

782
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 2: was the case.

783
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: Okay, your sisters, the offenses that occurred against your sisters

784
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 1: and the type of grooming, can you talk about your

785
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: comfortable just talking about what they went through as well.

786
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 2: So I'm not entirely sure because even though we are

787
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 2: allowed to read each other statement now and we have

788
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 2: seen the charges that came out. That's pretty much all

789
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 2: that I know. We actually haven't sat down together because

790
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 2: there was so much going on through the trial, which

791
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 2: was nine weeks, including deliberation, we haven't had time to

792
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 2: sit together and actually deep brief and that's something that

793
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 2: we might be able to have the strength or the

794
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: energy to do one day. But I do know that

795
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 2: whatever abuse happened to me happened to them and allegedly

796
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: to many others.

797
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: I would imagine, and this would have made it difficult

798
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: that when the matters were reported to the police, you

799
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: would have been instructed not to talk to each other

800
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:37,800
Speaker 1: about the offenses in protect the potential contamination the evidence.

801
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: From an emotional point of view about talking about the evidence,

802
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,359
Speaker 1: you must have been aware that your sisters had made

803
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: complaints as well. How difficult was again being isolated from

804
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 1: being able to speak people close to your sisters that

805
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: have been through similar experiences.

806
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 2: I think the shame was so great at that time,

807
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 2: and the disconnect from the actual abuse. It was like

808
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 2: dundusted gave the statement, Okay, I needed to come back.

809
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 2: It wasn't. We grew closer and closer over the years,

810
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 2: but Lofa wasn't the center of that. Our campaigning made

811
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 2: us absolutely impossibly close because we were so closely working

812
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 2: together to bring her back. But we knew, like you said,

813
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 2: and we all knew from very early on, that the

814
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: topic of the abuse and any ax or anything like

815
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: that could never be discussed. So literally was only what

816
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 2: we witnessed of each other during those years. So my

817
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 2: younger sister witnessed my second sister being taken to a

818
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 2: different room, and like I said, the camp situation and

819
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 2: things like that.

820
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: The process for the extradition. How when you've made the

821
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 1: report to the police. I know the people when they

822
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: report to the police quite often they think, well that's

823
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: the first step and I'm going to get justice. You

824
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: touched on it a little bit earlier on. You had

825
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: no idea how long the process would take. Tell us

826
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 1: through what was going through in your life while that

827
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 1: was going on, and the type of information you were receiving,

828
00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: Because it was you said three years, but by the

829
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 1: time time she came back to Australia it was something

830
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 1: like twelve years.

831
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it was three years until her first arrest.

832
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: Okay, So the process was warrants had to be taken

833
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,919
Speaker 1: out and she got arrested. Over in Israel, you would

834
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: have been notified of that.

835
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 2: So I was working in a new school, So I

836
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 2: actually had left the school that I was abused in

837
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 2: and went to work in a new school. And it

838
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 2: was just early on in that year that all of

839
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 2: a sudden, I got this phone call from a reporter

840
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 2: that Markel Life was arrested. And my sisters were holidaying

841
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 2: away and they weren't even in Melbourne, and I'm frantically

842
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: trying to call them and say, guys, Michael Life has

843
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 2: been arrested.

844
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 1: Like this.

845
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 2: It was huge. It gave me. It was such a shock,

846
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 2: but it was also like, why did it happen? No,

847
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 2: no one warned us, Like the paper suddenly land on

848
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 2: someone's desk and they're like, oh right, we're going to

849
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 2: go and arrest her. Was it in relation to the

850
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 2: fact that there was some civil cases going on? So

851
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 2: suddenly it sparked a memory, Oh okay, we should go

852
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 2: and arrest her. Like I still don't know what caused

853
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 2: that first arrest, And then we had some little bit

854
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 2: of contact from the prosecutors there in Israel, but very

855
00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 2: shortly after she was arrested in charge and all that,

856
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 2: she was released on bail. And that was the one

857
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 2: mistake that the prosecution team admits to because they weren't

858
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 2: in contact with us enough yet to know that we

859
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 2: would not want that to happen, that we know what

860
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 2: she's like, and that if she escaped Australia, she's definitely

861
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 2: going to try and escape anything there to come back.

862
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 2: And they released her on bail, and that was a

863
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 2: huge pivotal moment.

864
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: And did you feel like you've been let down with that? Like,

865
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: when you've come out, you've done the statement, you're doing

866
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 1: everything that, yeah, we say you should do in a

867
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: situation like that, did you feel like the system had

868
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: let you down?

869
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 2: I didn't know enough and my sisters didn't either at

870
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: that time to still not trust in the system. Okay,

871
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 2: she's on bail, she'll go to her house, she won't

872
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 2: be allowed to leave, she'll turn up the court to

873
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 2: the next court date and she will have to say

874
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 2: that she is or isn't you know, able to come

875
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 2: to Australia. There was no indication that this still would

876
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 2: not work and she would be back within six months, right,

877
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: So that's.

878
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: The expectation you had yes, even though she had bailed

879
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: to granted yes, So why did it takes so long?

880
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 2: That's when the game started.

881
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:06,479
Speaker 1: Yep.

882
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 2: Once she got bailed, there were probably around seventy or

883
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,280
Speaker 2: more court hearings around her mental fitness to stand trial,

884
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: and even a judge over there, which is mind boggling.

885
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 2: Reported like. He stated that marchal Lifer checks herself into

886
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 2: a psych word the day before court hearing and checks

887
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: herself out the day after. He stated that at one

888
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 2: point we had the prosecution team saying we will go

889
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,720
Speaker 2: to hospital with the court to her. That didn't happen,

890
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: and then it was just a game of psychiatrists after

891
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 2: psychiatrist saying that she's not mentally well to stand trial. Now,

892
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 2: if she's not mentally fit, she can't be extradited and

893
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 2: that is their decision to make. So then that's where

894
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 2: my sisters and I and my sister does started first

895
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 2: to campaign and starts speaking to leaders in Australia and saying,

896
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 2: hang on, what's happening here. We've got to start putting

897
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 2: pressure up because if we don't, she's going to keep

898
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 2: playing the syste again, not knowing how extensive we would

899
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 2: have to fight, and how big the fight would be

900
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:06,280
Speaker 2: to actually bring her back.

901
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm sitting here is done because I'm hearing

902
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: your story, but what you've been through and then the

903
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: battles break down, the fight. I think I've got a

904
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: quote here from the ABC about the extradition That was

905
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: from a Liberal MP, mister south Southwick, and this is

906
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, so this is years down the track. In

907
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, the Liberal MP bought a petition with seventeen

908
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 1: thousand signatures calling for the extradition of life to israel politicians.

909
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 1: But mister Southwick said members of the community from all

910
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: sides of politics are joined together to support the sisters.

911
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: Doesn't matter who you are and where you come from.

912
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: When you see the pain and suffering that innocent women

913
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 1: have had to go through from a purpose like Malco Lifer,

914
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: then you do everything possible you can to bring that

915
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: person to justice. It was became political, you had to

916
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: like signatures. I'm asking you, from a personal point of view,

917
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: how did that affect you personally.

918
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 2: We were on a roller coaster that was going so

919
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 2: fast and when it dipped, it was so painful, But

920
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,439
Speaker 2: then it went so fast up again. Every single core hearing.

921
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 2: We had people in Israel in the courts live texting us.

922
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,240
Speaker 2: We had a whole group chat of reporters and everyone

923
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 2: that was present telling us what's going on, because of

924
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 2: course it was all in a different language that we

925
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 2: couldn't even understand even if we could log in, which

926
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 2: we couldn't most of the time, and so we would

927
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,919
Speaker 2: need translators. And my sisters and I just sat down

928
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 2: and I was two thousand and seventeen. I stopped working

929
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 2: for the first time in my life. I had been

930
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 2: working from eighteen years old, post all my pregnancies, right

931
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 2: back to work right after. I didn't have any long

932
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 2: maternity leave, and I stopped working in twenty seventeen to

933
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 2: be able to campaign and advocate and having gone back

934
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: to teaching since then. And it was a huge moment,

935
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 2: but I don't even understand how big that was. And

936
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: I stepped out, and that's when I kind of became

937
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 2: public and joined my sisters and we are like, we

938
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 2: are going to actually go overseas from our own resources,

939
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 2: our own limited money. No one funded us, no one

940
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 2: told us what to do. We didn't have a publicist.

941
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 2: Everything was completely our own organizing, and we hopped on

942
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 2: a plane and went to Israel October twenty seventeen or November,

943
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 2: and we started. We went to rape crisis centers, We

944
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,879
Speaker 2: went to the Knesseta, and we met with politicians who

945
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 2: didn't want to talk to us because it's an uncomfortable topic,

946
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 2: but we imposed and made sure they did, and we

947
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: had someone in there helping us to get into some politicians.

948
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 2: We attended events. There was some big event happening then

949
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 2: between Autralia and Israel, so we attended that. We side

950
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 2: kind of met the Prime Minister at the time. We

951
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 2: just did everything possible for two entire weeks, every day

952
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 2: all day, meeting people to raise awareness about this story.

953
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 2: We met the prosecution team and we said to them,

954
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 2: we think there's something more going on. There's some corruption happening,

955
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 2: something's happening in this case. It's not adding up why

956
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 2: she's not coming back. And the prosecutor looked at us

957
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 2: and he said, if something's happening, like if someone's corrupt,

958
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 2: I'll eat my hat. And then a year later when

959
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: we went and by then we all found out that

960
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 2: the Health Minister was involved in asking the psychiatrist to

961
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 2: doctor her her mental health certificates. He looked at us

962
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 2: and he's like, I can't believe that happened. I think

963
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 2: to myself, if I was in a position of power

964
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 2: and I was asked to help someone like that, I

965
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,280
Speaker 2: couldn't do it. It would go against my whole moral compass.

966
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 2: Like he was, we could see how visibly shocked he

967
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 2: was that within a year we had because we went

968
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 2: back on our second campaign trip a year later, and

969
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 2: he understood that there was corruption going on, that there

970
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 2: was something much prosecu.

971
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 1: The prosecutor felt forces.

972
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 2: Well, we felt it, we raised it. They didn't want

973
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,399
Speaker 2: to believe it. Then when we came a year later,

974
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 2: By then the Litzmann story had broken out, and we

975
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 2: found out that the Health Minister had been pressuring the

976
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 2: psychiatrists who were treating Markolifa to say she was mentally

977
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 2: unfit based on their own sort of little dirt story

978
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 2: there that was happening, And the psychiatrist said that she

979
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 2: was unfit and she wasn't.

980
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 1: How frustrating was that for you guys?

981
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 2: It was validating because we knew who we were talking to,

982
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 2: But at the same time, it was horrible how gout

983
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,760
Speaker 2: someone in power, someone that we met the year before,

984
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 2: who claimed he had no knowledge of what was going

985
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,839
Speaker 2: on with Marcarl Liifa. We met him in parliament, and

986
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 2: then we find out that somehow he's involved in the

987
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 2: corruption that's stopping her from coming back. I actually, and

988
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 2: I can talk about this now because I'm not doing it.

989
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 2: I was thinking of lodging a lawsuit against Slitzman because

990
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 2: I didn't feel that the way that the criminal courts

991
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 2: dealt with him with a slap on the wrist and

992
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 2: a little fine and you can't work anything.

993
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: Moore, this was dealt with like it's come out publicly. Yes,

994
00:49:59,040 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: what you're talking about.

995
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 2: Yes, he received charges. Some were dropped because I think

996
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 2: he pled. It was obstruction of whatever. I don't know

997
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 2: what exactly was titled. He had got a fine and

998
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 2: he was told he can't work in parliament for seven years.

999
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: Okay, So that was and that was.

1000
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 2: Finer compared to the incredible impact he had on myself

1001
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 2: and my sisters, making the delay years longer than it

1002
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 2: should have been because of his involvement and corruption which

1003
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 2: is now proven.

1004
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 1: Well, I'll join in with you now that it's been

1005
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: in court and it's being proven that's disgraceful. Yes, absolutely disgraceful.

1006
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: And this is a person that you had met the

1007
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 1: previous twelve months before, with all the false promises, and

1008
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to do this.

1009
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 2: Well, he didn't, he would do anything. He just said

1010
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 2: he had no involvement in these kind of matters. He

1011
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 2: really shut us down, but also made it seem like

1012
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 2: he doesn't even know what we're talking about, which is

1013
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 2: obviously not true.

1014
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: Okay, how did it guess disprove that she wasn't fit

1015
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 1: to stand?

1016
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 2: Well, once the corruption came out and it hit national

1017
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 2: news all over Israel, that propelled the story to the

1018
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 2: highest level. I mean, look, that's second in comand you

1019
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 2: can't actually you can't push that down when someone's that powerful,

1020
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 2: that high up in government. Then my sisters and I

1021
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 2: went decided we're actually going to keep going to court.

1022
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 2: We're going to let this judge see us and look

1023
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 2: at us in the face, and she cannot possibly see

1024
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 2: the three of us sitting in the back of a corner.

1025
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 2: So we did a third campaign trip. This time someone

1026
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 2: stepped up and actually funded our tickets, which was amazing. Yeah,

1027
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,800
Speaker 2: that was incredible, But we still played accommodation and travel

1028
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 2: on everything, and.

1029
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: That's taking time your life and my kids and.

1030
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 2: Life and everything. I've got four children. And we sat

1031
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 2: in the back of the courtroom and we looked at

1032
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 2: that judge like, remember, you are dealing with victims here

1033
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 2: who are sitting here watching you do justice, give justice

1034
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 2: to the case. But it's for some reason, it seemed

1035
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 2: like she had to just keep asking for more. And

1036
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 2: then finally in early twenty twenty, right before COVID hit,

1037
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 2: there was the most incredibly important court case. It was

1038
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 2: when three psychiatrists, three who all said that she's fit

1039
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 2: to stand trial, were going to be cross examined by

1040
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 2: the defense, and there were some of them. Israel visiting

1041
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 2: here and we met him for coffee. He used to

1042
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 2: live in Australia and he came back, comes back twice

1043
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 2: a year, and he said would you go? And I

1044
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,320
Speaker 2: looked at my sisters and I was like caught. My husband.

1045
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm going to this round three days

1046
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 2: and my husband was like sure, because he's used to

1047
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 2: this already. And I hopped on a plane. Tickets were

1048
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 2: crazy cheap. We didn't know COVID was going to be

1049
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 2: so bad, but it was like literally under fifteen hundred.

1050
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 2: I hopped on a plane by myself, no sisters because

1051
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 2: they weren't available at the time, and I went and

1052
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 2: sat in court for two whole days in a language

1053
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 2: I didn't fully understand, but because it's my story, I could,

1054
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,399
Speaker 2: and I listened to every single word that was said

1055
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 2: and saw how those psychiatrists were put under the grill

1056
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:45,759
Speaker 2: by the two defense lawyers who we know who they were.

1057
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 2: We met them over all the time, and they did

1058
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 2: theatrics in the court room and they tried to discredit.

1059
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 2: One of the psychiatrists was a little bit unwell. She

1060
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 2: just wasn't feeling so good that morning, but she still gave,

1061
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 2: you know, she still did a good job. And after

1062
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: two whole days, I was like, Okay, that's it. We're

1063
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,320
Speaker 2: waiting for decision, and I went home. I was feeling

1064
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 2: very heavy. It was actually very hard to be without

1065
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 2: my sisters. Like I sat in the partment all day

1066
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 2: so depressed, but not depressed because the pressed, but just

1067
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 2: because it was so heavy and so everything was relying

1068
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 2: on this. We had waited years till to this point,

1069
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 2: to twenty twenty to hear what this decision's going to be.

1070
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 2: It's been seventy five CORET hearings, and the next I

1071
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 2: got home, spoke to my sisters, debriefed them and everything,

1072
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 2: and within a couple months, I don't know the exact

1073
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 2: days offhand, it came through that she's fit to be extradided.

1074
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 2: And that was like the penny drop. That was like, oh,

1075
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 2: my goodness, everything we fought for everything, it is still

1076
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:39,280
Speaker 2: for me personally, and I don't know about my sisters.

1077
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 2: When I look at the picture of her on an

1078
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 2: aeroplane going up those steps and landing on Australian soil,

1079
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 2: that can literally still I am in shocked at that

1080
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 2: picture because by that time a lot of people were thinking,

1081
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 2: it's actually not going to happen, She's not going to

1082
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 2: come back. They could see the battle we were fighting,

1083
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:58,839
Speaker 2: and they could see and we had more and more

1084
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 2: support from the whole Australian community. But it just seemed

1085
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 2: that we were fighting that impossible. Yeah, And then it

1086
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,760
Speaker 2: came through that she's fit to stand trial. The judge

1087
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 2: could not swing it any other way. It was not

1088
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 2: possible for some basically into it. But what a battle

1089
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 2: for what you've been through and then have the battle

1090
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 2: just to get to the court court matter, and I

1091
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 2: do remember the image of her getting on the planet.

1092
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 2: It's an iconic sort of photo, and you just, yeah,

1093
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 2: it was.

1094
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: It was so powerful seeing that when you're not involved

1095
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 1: in it, so I can only imagine what it felt

1096
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: like for you. You mentioned seventy five court matters. Is

1097
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: that how many? Yeah times it appeared at court.

1098
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's how many. And every single one we

1099
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 2: were involved in, every single one, we had contact. Every

1100
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 2: single one. We knew when it was a journed because

1101
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 2: there was a Germans that happened many times. Every single

1102
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 2: one we debriefed, We spoke to media before or after

1103
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 2: we met with my sisters. I'll be on holiday like

1104
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 2: summer for a couple of days away with my kids.

1105
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 2: I'll drive back from Rye with my sister sitting in

1106
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 2: her house together doing a court hearing. Didn't matter what

1107
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 2: was going on in our lives. We dropped everything to

1108
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 2: do this court hearing. And actually we had prosecution teams

1109
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 2: in Israel and in Australia look at us in the

1110
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 2: face and say, if you had not done what you

1111
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 2: had done, she would not be back. Well, so to

1112
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 2: have two teams saying that to us, we know that

1113
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 2: what we did is what caused her to be able

1114
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 2: to finally come back.

1115
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:21,360
Speaker 1: Well, I was going to make the comment because I

1116
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:25,799
Speaker 1: see hard investigations that get results, and invariably it's not

1117
00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: the police, it's not the prosecutors. It's a family just driving,

1118
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: just driving and pushing and not giving up. And where

1119
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 1: did you did you know you had that type of

1120
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: resilience or did that it just came out because of

1121
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 1: the circumstances. Where where did you get that type of resilience?

1122
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 1: Because I could imagine there would have been times there

1123
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:48,239
Speaker 1: where you just it's too hard. Why am I focusing

1124
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:50,879
Speaker 1: on that? And the focus on that it's time away

1125
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 1: from your kids, your husband, your professional career.

1126
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 2: I think once I gave my statement and that was

1127
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:58,919
Speaker 2: such a huge step out of anything in my life

1128
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 2: that I'd ever done adverse to the way I was

1129
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 2: brought up and raised, there was this tiny flame of

1130
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 2: the need for justice, and that just burned and got

1131
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 2: bigger and bigger and bigger over the years. It never

1132
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 2: ever went down for me personally, absolutely did not. The justice.

1133
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:21,839
Speaker 2: The thought of justice drove everything. Yeah, absolutely everything.

1134
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: I'm exhausted from you had delivered. That's just hearing the story.

1135
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 2: It was exhausting.

1136
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 1: I think I'm fascinated by the drive that victims have

1137
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: got to get justice, and I fully understand it. But

1138
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,760
Speaker 1: full credit to you that you've got to that point.

1139
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 1: We're going to take a break down because it's still

1140
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 1: not over, because then this is just the start of it.

1141
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: I often said in homicide or with investigations, it only

1142
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:49,879
Speaker 1: starts when you get to the court, and we haven't

1143
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 1: even got to trial. This is just getting the person

1144
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: to trial. But we'll talk about that, the impact that's

1145
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 1: had on you, and of course the fact that at

1146
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 1: the trial that the allegations that you made were she

1147
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 1: was found not guilty for those how that impacted on you.

1148
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:07,720
Speaker 1: And we're going to discuss a lot of other things,

1149
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 1: lessons that you've learned from here and messages that you

1150
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 1: want to get out because I think it's such an

1151
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: important story to talk about. As we said at the start,

1152
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 1: that you know, let's learn from what's happened here, so

1153
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: it makes it harder for these type of I was

1154
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 1: going to say, so these offenses don't happen again. They

1155
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: will happen again, but let's make it harder for them

1156
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: to happen again, have a shell break, thank you, cheers

1157
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 1: and