1
00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:16,361
Speaker 1: Apoche Production Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand, I'm

2
00:00:16,401 --> 00:00:20,401
Speaker 1: your host. Adam Shand my guest today served his community

3
00:00:20,441 --> 00:00:23,521
Speaker 1: as a police officer during some of the most dangerous

4
00:00:23,561 --> 00:00:29,441
Speaker 1: times in living memory. A newsagent in Footscray robbed at gunpoint.

5
00:00:28,961 --> 00:00:31,521
Speaker 2: Another armed robbery in Melbourne's North.

6
00:00:31,321 --> 00:00:35,001
Speaker 1: To Police are hunting three men after a brazen daylight

7
00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,520
Speaker 1: hold up at a suburban bank. Rod Porter was a

8
00:00:39,521 --> 00:00:43,040
Speaker 1: member of Victoria Police's Armed Robbery Squad, a unit that

9
00:00:43,081 --> 00:00:46,721
Speaker 1: had been accused of excessive force and violence when dealing

10
00:00:46,721 --> 00:00:50,321
Speaker 1: with a wave of armed offenders terrorizing the state in

11
00:00:50,361 --> 00:00:54,561
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies and eighties. The Victoria Police Armed Robbery

12
00:00:54,601 --> 00:01:00,601
Speaker 1: Squad is facing intense scrutiny, including coronial inquiries into fatal shootings.

13
00:01:01,441 --> 00:01:04,440
Speaker 1: The members of the squad made no apologies for taking

14
00:01:04,521 --> 00:01:07,441
Speaker 1: a hard rue line with these desperate bandits, who would

15
00:01:07,521 --> 00:01:11,000
Speaker 1: hit any outlet, from banks and tabs down to small

16
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,681
Speaker 1: businesses like newsagents and corner stores anywhere they could find cash,

17
00:01:15,961 --> 00:01:21,360
Speaker 1: often leaving staff highly traumatized. For everyday Victorian's shop workers,

18
00:01:21,441 --> 00:01:25,401
Speaker 1: bank tellers, small business owners, the fear is real, as

19
00:01:25,441 --> 00:01:30,001
Speaker 1: the headlines are daily, but this high stakes policing also

20
00:01:30,081 --> 00:01:34,281
Speaker 1: left its mark on officers. Rod Porter's service, from being

21
00:01:34,321 --> 00:01:38,401
Speaker 1: involved in fatal shootouts, armed robbery suspect shot dead in

22
00:01:38,481 --> 00:01:43,161
Speaker 1: confrontation with Victoria police to running Mark Brandon Chopper red

23
00:01:43,241 --> 00:01:47,641
Speaker 1: as an informer, stays with him today, long after his retirement.

24
00:01:48,041 --> 00:01:52,721
Speaker 1: As he approaches his eightieth birthday, Chopper Reid claims corruption

25
00:01:53,081 --> 00:01:58,041
Speaker 1: as internal investigation begins, and it's my great pleasure to

26
00:01:58,081 --> 00:02:01,001
Speaker 1: welcome Rod to the real crime studio gide Rod.

27
00:02:03,201 --> 00:02:03,601
Speaker 2: Pleasure.

28
00:02:03,761 --> 00:02:06,201
Speaker 1: Once a copper, always a copper. I can see you

29
00:02:06,761 --> 00:02:10,281
Speaker 1: back in the job. You know, say, mustache, different color

30
00:02:10,641 --> 00:02:13,881
Speaker 1: and same hairstyle. How much does your career stay with you?

31
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,561
Speaker 1: And I think people talk about a career, but it's

32
00:02:15,601 --> 00:02:16,921
Speaker 1: really a life, isn't it.

33
00:02:17,001 --> 00:02:20,841
Speaker 2: Absolutely it is and still with me to this day.

34
00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,881
Speaker 2: I still live and breathe the police force, probably through

35
00:02:24,921 --> 00:02:29,441
Speaker 2: my son who's a member of the police force. But

36
00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:34,321
Speaker 2: I'm extremely interested in what Victoria police are all about,

37
00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:35,481
Speaker 2: or police in general.

38
00:02:35,721 --> 00:02:37,720
Speaker 1: I actually met your son recently on the radio. Was

39
00:02:37,761 --> 00:02:39,761
Speaker 1: at a job. There was a blok had driven in

40
00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,561
Speaker 1: the McDonald's rather than the drive through, and when I

41
00:02:42,561 --> 00:02:45,281
Speaker 1: was struck, well go. So I won't say his name.

42
00:02:45,321 --> 00:02:49,201
Speaker 1: It's obviously it's confidential. His willingness to talk to people.

43
00:02:49,881 --> 00:02:53,241
Speaker 1: And I think your era of coppers certain and you

44
00:02:53,281 --> 00:02:54,481
Speaker 1: had to talk to people.

45
00:02:54,561 --> 00:02:57,641
Speaker 2: Well, we used a different language. I think back then

46
00:02:58,481 --> 00:03:02,001
Speaker 2: they're very restricted today. I know my son is a

47
00:03:02,121 --> 00:03:08,160
Speaker 2: very good communicator, very even tempered young men, and from

48
00:03:08,201 --> 00:03:10,961
Speaker 2: all the feedback, I get he does a wonderful job.

49
00:03:11,281 --> 00:03:14,561
Speaker 2: But it's there were different times when I was in

50
00:03:14,601 --> 00:03:17,520
Speaker 2: and I think we had a different method of communicating,

51
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,761
Speaker 2: how different, very different. I think we were a little

52
00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,161
Speaker 2: bit more physical at times. You know, there were times

53
00:03:25,161 --> 00:03:28,600
Speaker 2: that where you needed to be physical with the individuals

54
00:03:28,641 --> 00:03:32,800
Speaker 2: we were dealing with. But now they're more restricted in here,

55
00:03:32,881 --> 00:03:37,561
Speaker 2: they can go about their careers. Sometimes I don't think

56
00:03:37,561 --> 00:03:39,521
Speaker 2: it's for the better, no, I.

57
00:03:39,441 --> 00:03:42,761
Speaker 1: Mean, society has definitely changed. But back then, I mean

58
00:03:42,801 --> 00:03:44,881
Speaker 1: you ended up in the hold up Squad, which was

59
00:03:44,921 --> 00:03:47,281
Speaker 1: the heyday Vicaria one of the highlights.

60
00:03:47,361 --> 00:03:50,481
Speaker 2: You absolutely it was very proud to sales and the

61
00:03:50,801 --> 00:03:51,720
Speaker 2: robbery Squad.

62
00:03:51,921 --> 00:03:54,641
Speaker 1: And you were dealing with the cohort of crooks back

63
00:03:54,681 --> 00:03:57,881
Speaker 1: then that weren't afraid of the coppers. They saw themselves

64
00:03:57,881 --> 00:04:01,521
Speaker 1: at war with police and there were no half measures

65
00:04:01,521 --> 00:04:02,241
Speaker 1: from either side.

66
00:04:02,761 --> 00:04:05,921
Speaker 2: No, that's right. I mean we were dealing with people

67
00:04:05,961 --> 00:04:09,081
Speaker 2: in the robbery sphere that would shoot you quick as

68
00:04:09,121 --> 00:04:12,121
Speaker 2: look at you. And if we have any doubt about that,

69
00:04:12,601 --> 00:04:15,881
Speaker 2: You've got the Wall Street murderers, You've got the murderers

70
00:04:15,921 --> 00:04:20,401
Speaker 2: of Gary Silken, Rod Miller, and more recently we've got

71
00:04:20,481 --> 00:04:23,081
Speaker 2: des Freeman. I mean, there are people out there that

72
00:04:23,201 --> 00:04:27,841
Speaker 2: have no respect for police, what they do, what they represent,

73
00:04:28,481 --> 00:04:30,561
Speaker 2: and as I said, they would shoot you quick as

74
00:04:30,561 --> 00:04:31,081
Speaker 2: look at you.

75
00:04:31,761 --> 00:04:34,200
Speaker 1: And I mean you were pitched right into the middle

76
00:04:34,281 --> 00:04:38,041
Speaker 1: of that whole lead up to Wall Street. There's a

77
00:04:38,081 --> 00:04:39,681
Speaker 1: few dates that I'm going to throw at you which

78
00:04:39,681 --> 00:04:42,201
Speaker 1: I think are important to your career, and one of them,

79
00:04:42,241 --> 00:04:45,080
Speaker 1: of course, was the twenty fifth of March nine eighty seven,

80
00:04:45,681 --> 00:04:48,601
Speaker 1: where you were involved in the shooting of Mark Milleritano.

81
00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:51,320
Speaker 1: And you've written about that. If you go into Google

82
00:04:51,361 --> 00:04:54,281
Speaker 1: people you can find this second or third entry is

83
00:04:54,721 --> 00:04:58,640
Speaker 1: how that day stays with you. But you had no

84
00:04:58,761 --> 00:05:01,080
Speaker 1: choice what happened that day?

85
00:05:01,801 --> 00:05:06,720
Speaker 2: Yes, Well, Mark was a prolific he was running right,

86
00:05:06,841 --> 00:05:11,880
Speaker 2: He had a huge heroine habit, and he was committing

87
00:05:12,401 --> 00:05:17,440
Speaker 2: robbery's on a weekly basis using a motorcycle. He was

88
00:05:17,521 --> 00:05:21,561
Speaker 2: a seasoned criminal for a young man. Was useless bringing

89
00:05:21,641 --> 00:05:24,161
Speaker 2: him in to talk to him. You wouldn't respond to

90
00:05:24,201 --> 00:05:26,640
Speaker 2: any questioning. He virtually had to catch him on the

91
00:05:26,721 --> 00:05:32,001
Speaker 2: job and he was resorting to firing shots more and

92
00:05:32,121 --> 00:05:36,080
Speaker 2: more as he went along. And his last robbery was

93
00:05:36,121 --> 00:05:41,960
Speaker 2: on a newsagent in Footscray. He walked into the news

94
00:05:42,001 --> 00:05:46,721
Speaker 2: agency with his helmet on and firearm in hand, and

95
00:05:48,241 --> 00:05:53,121
Speaker 2: the proprietor was standing behind the counter. Mark makes a demand,

96
00:05:53,281 --> 00:05:57,640
Speaker 2: threatens him with the firearm. This gentleman says, mate, here's

97
00:05:57,721 --> 00:06:01,081
Speaker 2: the money, here's to tell take what you want, don't

98
00:06:01,161 --> 00:06:04,361
Speaker 2: hurt anybody. In fact, if you want more, I've got

99
00:06:04,681 --> 00:06:09,361
Speaker 2: bags of coins just behind that door. So Mark robbed him,

100
00:06:09,961 --> 00:06:12,640
Speaker 2: took a couple of bags of coins and as he

101
00:06:13,041 --> 00:06:16,121
Speaker 2: reached the door, turned around and fired a shot at

102
00:06:16,121 --> 00:06:20,841
Speaker 2: this poor man who did nothing to resist him. Luckily

103
00:06:20,921 --> 00:06:24,281
Speaker 2: he missed. So it was at that stage we decided

104
00:06:24,481 --> 00:06:27,161
Speaker 2: we've got to get this guy off the street. He's

105
00:06:27,361 --> 00:06:30,361
Speaker 2: going to kill someone. So we set up an operation

106
00:06:30,921 --> 00:06:33,801
Speaker 2: and the idea was that we were going to have

107
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:38,320
Speaker 2: him apprehended in his flat by the Special Operations Group,

108
00:06:38,361 --> 00:06:42,001
Speaker 2: but that went turned to dust because he left before

109
00:06:42,281 --> 00:06:45,161
Speaker 2: we could get them set up. So then it was

110
00:06:45,241 --> 00:06:49,761
Speaker 2: up to us, us being two carloads of Robbie Squad detectives.

111
00:06:49,961 --> 00:06:53,001
Speaker 2: So I said, let's follow him until we can get

112
00:06:53,081 --> 00:06:56,520
Speaker 2: him into an area that's safe to intercept me. Because

113
00:06:56,521 --> 00:06:59,361
Speaker 2: we knew for sure that he'd have a firearm, and

114
00:06:59,961 --> 00:07:03,361
Speaker 2: from intelligence we got he was happy to shoot it

115
00:07:03,401 --> 00:07:07,121
Speaker 2: out with The police started following him at some distance.

116
00:07:07,161 --> 00:07:09,601
Speaker 2: It didn't take him long to realize that he was

117
00:07:09,641 --> 00:07:13,481
Speaker 2: being followed. He had several hundred meters start on us.

118
00:07:13,681 --> 00:07:16,081
Speaker 2: He decided to do a U turn and drive back

119
00:07:16,121 --> 00:07:21,001
Speaker 2: towards us. So we formed a formation two cars side

120
00:07:21,001 --> 00:07:25,601
Speaker 2: by side to intercept him. We said to our offsider,

121
00:07:25,841 --> 00:07:30,441
Speaker 2: who had a pump action shotgun, soon as we stop him,

122
00:07:30,961 --> 00:07:35,161
Speaker 2: get out and cover him with the shotgun. So he did.

123
00:07:35,321 --> 00:07:37,561
Speaker 2: Soon as the cars came to a stop, he jumped

124
00:07:37,561 --> 00:07:43,361
Speaker 2: out with the shotgun, ran up towards Militana. Militana went

125
00:07:43,441 --> 00:07:46,801
Speaker 2: for a firearm in the bend of his trousers, pulled

126
00:07:46,801 --> 00:07:51,081
Speaker 2: it out with that. Our man fired a shot into

127
00:07:51,121 --> 00:07:55,241
Speaker 2: the windscreen. The rest of us were out of our

128
00:07:55,321 --> 00:07:59,001
Speaker 2: cars at that stage with guns drawn, and once that

129
00:07:59,121 --> 00:08:02,281
Speaker 2: shot hit the windscreen, we thought, well, that's the end

130
00:08:02,321 --> 00:08:06,761
Speaker 2: of it. He's gone, and we all relaxed, and the

131
00:08:06,801 --> 00:08:09,681
Speaker 2: next thing, that passenger door flew open, and there he

132
00:08:09,801 --> 00:08:14,041
Speaker 2: jumped with the firearm in his hand, leveled it at

133
00:08:14,121 --> 00:08:16,721
Speaker 2: us and started running down the street. So we all

134
00:08:16,801 --> 00:08:21,161
Speaker 2: opened fire. Unfortunately he died as a result of it.

135
00:08:22,801 --> 00:08:27,041
Speaker 2: So that was a rather horrific day and wasn't the

136
00:08:27,081 --> 00:08:31,881
Speaker 2: yet come we desired, but we had no choice. Then

137
00:08:31,921 --> 00:08:35,761
Speaker 2: we had to go through the trauma of Corona's in question.

138
00:08:35,881 --> 00:08:39,241
Speaker 1: You know, lo's like in the seconds after these things.

139
00:08:39,041 --> 00:08:45,441
Speaker 2: Happened, absolutely surreal. You're thinking, did that actually happen? Is

140
00:08:45,481 --> 00:08:48,241
Speaker 2: this real? But you know it is real because you're

141
00:08:48,281 --> 00:08:52,281
Speaker 2: looking at the body and we all ran up. Of

142
00:08:52,281 --> 00:08:54,361
Speaker 2: course I kicked the gun away from him, it was

143
00:08:54,401 --> 00:08:58,761
Speaker 2: on the ground, and you just find it difficult to believe.

144
00:08:58,801 --> 00:09:03,401
Speaker 2: And then you think to yourself, why me? This is

145
00:09:03,521 --> 00:09:09,641
Speaker 2: just a terrible situation being it's gut wrenching, scary, and

146
00:09:09,641 --> 00:09:10,361
Speaker 2: imagine your.

147
00:09:10,241 --> 00:09:12,881
Speaker 1: Point thinking to yourself, was there anything else I could

148
00:09:12,881 --> 00:09:13,201
Speaker 1: have done?

149
00:09:13,601 --> 00:09:17,361
Speaker 2: Exactly? Yes? Could we have done this any other way?

150
00:09:18,081 --> 00:09:20,201
Speaker 2: And you know in the back of your mind, eventually

151
00:09:20,241 --> 00:09:22,721
Speaker 2: this is going to go to the coroner's court and

152
00:09:23,241 --> 00:09:26,521
Speaker 2: barristers that will represent the family will have months to

153
00:09:26,601 --> 00:09:29,401
Speaker 2: sit there and think it through in the comfort of

154
00:09:29,441 --> 00:09:32,881
Speaker 2: the offices, and why didn't you do this, or why

155
00:09:32,881 --> 00:09:37,321
Speaker 2: didn't you say that? And did you consider this? Which

156
00:09:37,361 --> 00:09:39,801
Speaker 2: is all very well, but no you don't at the

157
00:09:39,881 --> 00:09:44,481
Speaker 2: time because the adrenaline is rushing. Your life's at risk

158
00:09:44,961 --> 00:09:47,121
Speaker 2: and all you want to do is survive and go

159
00:09:47,201 --> 00:09:49,841
Speaker 2: home to your family. So we went through all that

160
00:09:50,081 --> 00:09:53,881
Speaker 2: at the coroner's court, and the family accused us of

161
00:09:53,961 --> 00:09:58,081
Speaker 2: executing him, which was pretty hard to take. And of

162
00:09:58,081 --> 00:10:01,841
Speaker 2: course it all gets reported and some people look at

163
00:10:01,881 --> 00:10:05,041
Speaker 2: you a bit differently. So that's a dramatic effect.

164
00:10:05,281 --> 00:10:08,721
Speaker 1: Dramatic effect, and that's one of those days that stays with.

165
00:10:08,681 --> 00:10:11,961
Speaker 2: You even to this day. Absolutely it does. Yeah, I

166
00:10:12,001 --> 00:10:16,361
Speaker 2: think of it constantly. Actually in what context? Oh I

167
00:10:16,481 --> 00:10:19,321
Speaker 2: dream to this day. I relive it, and if I

168
00:10:19,441 --> 00:10:23,561
Speaker 2: drive through Flemington or anywhere near that place, I just

169
00:10:24,041 --> 00:10:28,161
Speaker 2: get a sense of fear. It's very hard to explain,

170
00:10:28,961 --> 00:10:32,081
Speaker 2: but it's a very uncomfortable feeling and you never get

171
00:10:32,721 --> 00:10:34,001
Speaker 2: rid of it. You never get it.

172
00:10:35,041 --> 00:10:38,121
Speaker 1: And when you think about it, he's like twenty two, Yes,

173
00:10:38,241 --> 00:10:43,561
Speaker 1: a young man, What a shameful waste of life, absolutely, yeah.

174
00:10:44,001 --> 00:10:46,361
Speaker 1: And the effect that it has on everyone else around

175
00:10:46,441 --> 00:10:51,321
Speaker 1: his family, you, your colleagues, your families. Yeah, I mean

176
00:10:51,601 --> 00:10:53,561
Speaker 1: your a husband and a father at that time.

177
00:10:53,801 --> 00:10:57,361
Speaker 2: Absolutely I was. And my wife found out about it.

178
00:10:57,801 --> 00:11:00,881
Speaker 2: She was preparing the evening meal and it came up

179
00:11:00,881 --> 00:11:05,441
Speaker 2: as a news flash on television. And I'd previously said

180
00:11:05,441 --> 00:11:08,441
Speaker 2: to my colleagues in the office, don't ring her, don't

181
00:11:08,481 --> 00:11:12,481
Speaker 2: tell her, old telling her myself. But then she saw it,

182
00:11:12,681 --> 00:11:15,441
Speaker 2: and my children said, she ran around in circles like

183
00:11:15,481 --> 00:11:19,241
Speaker 2: a chick with its head cut off, saying he's killed someone.

184
00:11:19,321 --> 00:11:22,841
Speaker 2: He's killed someone. That had a huge effect on her,

185
00:11:23,441 --> 00:11:27,201
Speaker 2: and no doubt my children, So everyone suffers as a

186
00:11:27,241 --> 00:11:33,081
Speaker 2: result of it, and your marriage. A marriage folded years

187
00:11:33,161 --> 00:11:38,481
Speaker 2: later because I think I was involved in so many

188
00:11:38,481 --> 00:11:42,361
Speaker 2: close calls in my career, if I can use the term,

189
00:11:42,681 --> 00:11:45,161
Speaker 2: I think I was a shit magnet and that took

190
00:11:45,201 --> 00:11:49,441
Speaker 2: its told to That was one of many incidentss and

191
00:11:49,641 --> 00:11:52,561
Speaker 2: I think she just got to the stage where she

192
00:11:52,721 --> 00:11:53,761
Speaker 2: just couldn't take anymore.

193
00:11:55,281 --> 00:11:58,001
Speaker 1: And in those situations, a lot of officers in those days,

194
00:11:58,001 --> 00:12:00,441
Speaker 1: there was no debriefing, there was no psychiatric support. You

195
00:12:00,521 --> 00:12:02,281
Speaker 1: just went out back on the job the next day

196
00:12:02,321 --> 00:12:04,281
Speaker 1: pretty much, and if I guess, you could ask for it,

197
00:12:04,321 --> 00:12:06,001
Speaker 1: but people didn't want to asked for it. They didn't

198
00:12:06,201 --> 00:12:08,001
Speaker 1: feel it was the right thing to do.

199
00:12:08,481 --> 00:12:12,481
Speaker 2: It was an offer to you say no, I'm sorry.

200
00:12:12,681 --> 00:12:15,561
Speaker 2: I've got to correct that with my previous episodes, and

201
00:12:15,601 --> 00:12:17,841
Speaker 2: I'm sure we're going to talk about the middle of

202
00:12:17,921 --> 00:12:23,241
Speaker 2: tano one there was a brand new false psychologist and

203
00:12:23,401 --> 00:12:26,401
Speaker 2: we had access to her. Yeah, she was very good.

204
00:12:26,521 --> 00:12:29,321
Speaker 2: She came into the office and sat down with us

205
00:12:29,321 --> 00:12:33,041
Speaker 2: and debriefed us, and that was a good result. But

206
00:12:33,161 --> 00:12:36,641
Speaker 2: prior to that, nothing, And so you tend.

207
00:12:36,441 --> 00:12:39,001
Speaker 1: To debrief with your colleagues down the pub or something.

208
00:12:39,041 --> 00:12:43,721
Speaker 2: I guess, Well, not even that. You just went home

209
00:12:43,761 --> 00:12:49,121
Speaker 2: and turn up the next shift and don't be late, and.

210
00:12:49,041 --> 00:12:50,921
Speaker 1: Would you talk to your wife about what's happened or

211
00:12:51,121 --> 00:12:54,841
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you talk to your colleagues just

212
00:12:54,921 --> 00:12:57,041
Speaker 1: during the course of the shift and the next day.

213
00:12:57,721 --> 00:13:00,961
Speaker 2: But I can't recall it again. To the pub after

214
00:13:01,001 --> 00:13:06,761
Speaker 2: that event and speaking with him were pretty tough days.

215
00:13:06,801 --> 00:13:10,001
Speaker 2: You expected to be tough. Go join the police force

216
00:13:10,081 --> 00:13:12,721
Speaker 2: if you can't handle it. That was the attitude.

217
00:13:13,201 --> 00:13:15,281
Speaker 1: I mean, you'd had ten years of this sort of

218
00:13:15,281 --> 00:13:18,481
Speaker 1: stuff by this time, I mean going back to I

219
00:13:18,481 --> 00:13:21,761
Speaker 1: think seventy seven, you're in a bank hold up in

220
00:13:21,801 --> 00:13:24,561
Speaker 1: Brunswick where I don't think you even armed.

221
00:13:24,961 --> 00:13:30,321
Speaker 2: No what happened that day, That's an interesting day. I

222
00:13:30,521 --> 00:13:36,201
Speaker 2: just joined a specialized police unit called the surveillance unit.

223
00:13:36,761 --> 00:13:39,601
Speaker 2: The name will suggest that what we did is followed

224
00:13:39,601 --> 00:13:42,601
Speaker 2: criminals around and to see what they're up to and

225
00:13:42,761 --> 00:13:46,201
Speaker 2: what have you. And this was my first day in

226
00:13:46,201 --> 00:13:49,601
Speaker 2: the surveillance unit and the boss put me in the

227
00:13:49,641 --> 00:13:53,921
Speaker 2: car with a seasoned surveillance operative and he was told

228
00:13:54,001 --> 00:13:56,641
Speaker 2: just to show me the rapes and show me around.

229
00:13:57,361 --> 00:14:02,041
Speaker 2: But that fellow had just got a promotion to a

230
00:14:02,241 --> 00:14:05,841
Speaker 2: country police station and was very get to get there

231
00:14:05,881 --> 00:14:09,481
Speaker 2: and get started. So after about an hour he said, well,

232
00:14:09,521 --> 00:14:12,561
Speaker 2: I'm off, I'm going home. You just fear your day

233
00:14:12,601 --> 00:14:16,121
Speaker 2: in as best you can and best of luck. So

234
00:14:17,001 --> 00:14:18,961
Speaker 2: I thought, what am I going to do to kill time?

235
00:14:19,001 --> 00:14:24,441
Speaker 2: And I was recently transferred from Collingwood to the surveillance units.

236
00:14:24,481 --> 00:14:27,201
Speaker 2: I thought I'll call into the Collingwood police station and

237
00:14:27,881 --> 00:14:30,641
Speaker 2: see mywle mates. And whilst I was there, a call

238
00:14:30,721 --> 00:14:34,121
Speaker 2: came over the radio that an armed robbery was in

239
00:14:34,201 --> 00:14:39,401
Speaker 2: progress in Saint George's Road, North Fitzroy. Two offenders dressed

240
00:14:39,401 --> 00:14:43,921
Speaker 2: in suits and ties, one armed with an automatic military rifle,

241
00:14:44,201 --> 00:14:48,721
Speaker 2: one with a handgun. They've escaped in an Alpha Romeya

242
00:14:48,921 --> 00:14:52,441
Speaker 2: and they gave the description and registered number and all

243
00:14:52,481 --> 00:14:57,281
Speaker 2: the rest of it. So, having worked in the Collingwood area,

244
00:14:57,321 --> 00:15:00,401
Speaker 2: I thought, what would I do if I'd just held

245
00:15:00,481 --> 00:15:02,481
Speaker 2: up the bank in North Fitzroy. And I thought, I'd

246
00:15:02,521 --> 00:15:05,281
Speaker 2: head for the Qube Boulevard, which will take me that

247
00:15:05,401 --> 00:15:08,681
Speaker 2: much further away from the crime scene. I'll take. I'll

248
00:15:08,721 --> 00:15:12,121
Speaker 2: drive along the boulevard just on the off chance I'm

249
00:15:12,161 --> 00:15:15,441
Speaker 2: going to come across them. Well, and behold, you know

250
00:15:15,521 --> 00:15:19,481
Speaker 2: the boulevard Q boulevards very winding if you don't know it.

251
00:15:19,521 --> 00:15:22,201
Speaker 2: And I'm driving, I want keep in mind I'm in

252
00:15:22,241 --> 00:15:26,401
Speaker 2: an unmarked police car and unarmed, and I'm approaching a

253
00:15:26,481 --> 00:15:29,721
Speaker 2: bend and the next thing, this Alfa Romeo comes around

254
00:15:29,801 --> 00:15:32,201
Speaker 2: the bend and there's these two lakes sitting in it,

255
00:15:32,801 --> 00:15:36,641
Speaker 2: laughing and joking. Obviously it's them, So I thought, I've

256
00:15:36,761 --> 00:15:39,321
Speaker 2: got to do my best not to alert them that

257
00:15:39,401 --> 00:15:42,081
Speaker 2: I'm onto them. So I went continued on my way

258
00:15:42,121 --> 00:15:45,641
Speaker 2: around the bend, did a U turn and then came

259
00:15:45,721 --> 00:15:47,761
Speaker 2: up behind him and gave him a bit of rope.

260
00:15:48,081 --> 00:15:50,761
Speaker 2: Come up to G twenty four, said I've got this

261
00:15:51,161 --> 00:15:54,921
Speaker 2: unit in my line of sight. And they became very excited,

262
00:15:55,401 --> 00:15:59,841
Speaker 2: calling for any unit clear to back me up. And

263
00:16:00,561 --> 00:16:04,041
Speaker 2: I can remember distinctly the operator, who was very good.

264
00:16:04,521 --> 00:16:08,601
Speaker 2: He said, are there any tog P eight units in

265
00:16:08,641 --> 00:16:12,641
Speaker 2: the area that can take up the pursuit.

266
00:16:12,401 --> 00:16:13,401
Speaker 1: As a tactical group.

267
00:16:13,601 --> 00:16:16,881
Speaker 2: Yeah. But anyhow, as this is going on, I look

268
00:16:16,921 --> 00:16:19,201
Speaker 2: in the rear vision mirror and there's a Divvy van

269
00:16:19,361 --> 00:16:22,081
Speaker 2: right up my clacker with its lights going, no siren,

270
00:16:22,121 --> 00:16:24,401
Speaker 2: thank god. And I said, look, I've got a Divvy

271
00:16:24,481 --> 00:16:27,561
Speaker 2: van right behind me. I'm going to pull over if

272
00:16:27,601 --> 00:16:30,001
Speaker 2: they can come up and take up the pursuit, and

273
00:16:30,001 --> 00:16:33,801
Speaker 2: then I'll follow them as a backup. And of course,

274
00:16:33,841 --> 00:16:37,001
Speaker 2: soon as that happened, they planned it, and boy did

275
00:16:37,081 --> 00:16:41,281
Speaker 2: they plan it. They were driving like absolute maniacs and

276
00:16:41,441 --> 00:16:44,801
Speaker 2: going up and down backstreets of Q. It was like

277
00:16:44,921 --> 00:16:48,681
Speaker 2: something out of an American moving knocking rubbish bins in

278
00:16:48,721 --> 00:16:51,281
Speaker 2: the air and wrong side of the road, right side

279
00:16:51,281 --> 00:16:55,401
Speaker 2: of the raid. And eventually they turn into Wall Street

280
00:16:55,441 --> 00:16:58,641
Speaker 2: that runs up to the Q junction with a tram

281
00:16:58,721 --> 00:17:01,121
Speaker 2: running up it. And they come out of this side

282
00:17:01,121 --> 00:17:04,041
Speaker 2: street turn left and it's a tram stop, and the

283
00:17:04,121 --> 00:17:08,121
Speaker 2: tram stop and the cars on the inside are blocking

284
00:17:08,161 --> 00:17:12,761
Speaker 2: any thoroughy. So they went onto the wrong side of

285
00:17:12,761 --> 00:17:15,840
Speaker 2: the raid. Divvy van, wrong side of the raid right

286
00:17:15,921 --> 00:17:18,441
Speaker 2: up there, Clacker and then there's me and I got

287
00:17:18,481 --> 00:17:22,080
Speaker 2: alongside them, and at one stage they went onto the footpath.

288
00:17:22,281 --> 00:17:25,241
Speaker 2: Divvyvan went on to the foot path and they tried

289
00:17:25,241 --> 00:17:27,801
Speaker 2: to come off the footpath and I knocked them back

290
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,600
Speaker 2: on with my car. And when they got to the junction,

291
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,480
Speaker 2: they were facing a red light, not that that was

292
00:17:33,521 --> 00:17:36,561
Speaker 2: going to stop them, but that turned green just as

293
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,360
Speaker 2: they were approaching it, and a truck came around the

294
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,521
Speaker 2: blind corner right in front of them, so they went

295
00:17:43,681 --> 00:17:47,600
Speaker 2: crash into the side of the truck. I was dressed

296
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,761
Speaker 2: in shorts, two shirt and runners had no gun, no gun,

297
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,281
Speaker 2: So I ran out of up the back of the

298
00:17:54,321 --> 00:17:58,721
Speaker 2: Alpha Romeo onto the roof. As the driver stepped out,

299
00:17:58,761 --> 00:18:01,240
Speaker 2: I grabbed him around the neck and dragged him to

300
00:18:01,281 --> 00:18:05,001
Speaker 2: the ground. And the next thing I remember these batons

301
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:08,761
Speaker 2: raining down on him and me, you know, from police

302
00:18:09,281 --> 00:18:12,281
Speaker 2: getting beaten because I was in the raw, so I

303
00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:16,201
Speaker 2: quickly extracted myself from that, and then another group of

304
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,600
Speaker 2: coppers dragged a brother out the other side, and virtually

305
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,121
Speaker 2: that was the end of those guys. But they were

306
00:18:22,201 --> 00:18:26,601
Speaker 2: unknown offenders at that stage, and as a result of that,

307
00:18:26,921 --> 00:18:30,521
Speaker 2: they to pin three more robberies on them, one on

308
00:18:30,561 --> 00:18:36,680
Speaker 2: a hospital payroll. They were very active boys. As it

309
00:18:36,761 --> 00:18:40,920
Speaker 2: turned out, the firearms were imitation, but we didn't know

310
00:18:41,001 --> 00:18:42,960
Speaker 2: that at the time, you know, we thought we're dealing

311
00:18:43,001 --> 00:18:45,840
Speaker 2: with the real thing. I can remember seeing the bag

312
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,840
Speaker 2: of money on the back seat. But they used to

313
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,721
Speaker 2: send messages home and photographs of themselves out here. Look

314
00:18:52,761 --> 00:18:54,481
Speaker 2: how well we're doing. You know. We were in a

315
00:18:54,521 --> 00:18:56,960
Speaker 2: best suits and we'd go to the best restaurants and

316
00:18:56,961 --> 00:19:02,640
Speaker 2: blah blah blah, and the family bag. Really successful businessmen

317
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:09,680
Speaker 2: are in the monkey business.

318
00:19:07,801 --> 00:19:12,521
Speaker 1: Because there were some very brave arm robbers in those days.

319
00:19:12,561 --> 00:19:14,881
Speaker 1: They were very active. You had people of the caliber

320
00:19:14,921 --> 00:19:19,241
Speaker 1: of Ray Chuck Bennett, Normanie Lee, Flemington Crew, Victor Pierce,

321
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,880
Speaker 1: sed Horton, Graham Jensen, the list goes on, and there

322
00:19:22,921 --> 00:19:26,401
Speaker 1: were people can't remember this now, most people too young,

323
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,761
Speaker 1: but there were six thousand armed robberies a year in

324
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,720
Speaker 1: Australia back in those days. So if you were in

325
00:19:32,761 --> 00:19:35,321
Speaker 1: the arm robbery squad, you were busy all the time,

326
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,441
Speaker 1: absolutely run off our feet and there were occasions where

327
00:19:39,481 --> 00:19:40,400
Speaker 1: you didn't go home.

328
00:19:40,721 --> 00:19:45,161
Speaker 2: You'd be out kicking indoors late at night or checking

329
00:19:45,281 --> 00:19:51,001
Speaker 2: pubs or two up schools and legal card game premises

330
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,840
Speaker 2: looking for crooks. And it wasn't worth going home because

331
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,360
Speaker 2: the next morning you'd have to be up at five

332
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,041
Speaker 2: o'clock to go and kick more dools in. And it

333
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,200
Speaker 2: was just took it style, it really did, you know.

334
00:20:03,801 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 2: But I've got to say were the toughest bunch of

335
00:20:06,561 --> 00:20:10,521
Speaker 2: men I've ever worked with and staunch. They always had

336
00:20:10,561 --> 00:20:14,041
Speaker 2: each other's back. It was an absolute pleasure to work

337
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:14,401
Speaker 2: with him.

338
00:20:15,041 --> 00:20:18,241
Speaker 1: It became a force within a force in the sense

339
00:20:18,281 --> 00:20:20,480
Speaker 1: in those days, and you guys had the ties with

340
00:20:20,561 --> 00:20:23,281
Speaker 1: the cross pistols on there, there was a strong fellowship.

341
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,400
Speaker 1: In the end that became something Victoria Police wanted to

342
00:20:26,441 --> 00:20:29,801
Speaker 1: break up and they actually after your time, but they

343
00:20:29,801 --> 00:20:32,400
Speaker 1: saw it as such a threat this group within.

344
00:20:33,041 --> 00:20:37,640
Speaker 2: How stupid were they absolutely stupid decision. I mean the

345
00:20:37,761 --> 00:20:41,001
Speaker 2: crims were terrified of the armed robberies. Called it. And

346
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,001
Speaker 2: we know that for a fact because we had them

347
00:20:43,001 --> 00:20:47,920
Speaker 2: on bugs for various places we were checking out. All

348
00:20:47,921 --> 00:20:50,321
Speaker 2: they ever spoke about is the arm robbers. Oh Jesus,

349
00:20:50,321 --> 00:20:53,160
Speaker 2: you know the armed robbery's card. There was one in

350
00:20:53,201 --> 00:20:55,960
Speaker 2: particular I remember, I won't mention his name, but he

351
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,801
Speaker 2: thought he was a pretty tough crim He was an

352
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,400
Speaker 2: arm robber. We wanted to raid his place after a

353
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,041
Speaker 2: particular arm robbery where he fired shots at a police.

354
00:21:06,041 --> 00:21:09,600
Speaker 2: We weren't allowed to because they said, you've got to

355
00:21:09,681 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 2: use the SAG for this, she's too dangerous. So he

356
00:21:13,281 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 2: engaged the SAG. And how they operate. They set up

357
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,241
Speaker 2: perimeters and they have an assault team that goes in

358
00:21:21,321 --> 00:21:24,041
Speaker 2: and captures the crook. And how they came up on

359
00:21:24,041 --> 00:21:27,081
Speaker 2: the radio and said, we have him in custody, can

360
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:29,360
Speaker 2: you send him the arrest team. So that was me

361
00:21:29,481 --> 00:21:33,041
Speaker 2: and a couple of others. There's this hero laying on

362
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,081
Speaker 2: his belly on the floor with his hands trussed behind

363
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 2: his back to his legs which were bent up. Say,

364
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,920
Speaker 2: he looked like a Christmas turkey and he's crying and

365
00:21:43,961 --> 00:21:46,801
Speaker 2: he's screamed, who are you, what are you doing? Hell?

366
00:21:47,001 --> 00:21:50,281
Speaker 2: What's going on? He's peed his pants, and I thought

367
00:21:50,441 --> 00:21:53,081
Speaker 2: I'd love to take a photo of this and spread

368
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,721
Speaker 2: it around to his friends. I mean, I don't blame

369
00:21:55,801 --> 00:21:58,120
Speaker 2: Hi might be terrified to but just saw him in

370
00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:01,321
Speaker 2: a different light. You know, all the bravado and toughness

371
00:22:01,321 --> 00:22:05,440
Speaker 2: had gone out the window because he's met with the

372
00:22:05,481 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 2: same force, and it has a dramatic effect on them.

373
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,880
Speaker 2: They don't want to play anymore. It's too hard, it's

374
00:22:11,961 --> 00:22:15,481
Speaker 2: too tough, too dangerous, and they forget about all the people.

375
00:22:15,561 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 2: And I've seen them that they've put in hospitals, in

376
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:23,121
Speaker 2: mental institutions because of their antics, where they've put guns

377
00:22:23,441 --> 00:22:28,601
Speaker 2: at young female or male teller's heads and just ruin them.

378
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,920
Speaker 2: Some of them cannot go back to work. And people

379
00:22:31,961 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 2: forget all this sort of stuff, you know, they just

380
00:22:34,281 --> 00:22:38,321
Speaker 2: see them as modern day need Kelly's Well.

381
00:22:38,201 --> 00:22:40,001
Speaker 1: They were. There was this term. Oh they had a

382
00:22:40,041 --> 00:22:44,121
Speaker 1: lot of dash these but they were pointing firearms, as

383
00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:47,761
Speaker 1: you said, defenseless tellers and newsagents, for God's sakes, your newsagent.

384
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,761
Speaker 1: You know what sort of person does that. They're normally

385
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:52,761
Speaker 1: drug addicts. Back in those days, there was a lot

386
00:22:52,801 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: of drug fueled robbery. There was another time where I

387
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 1: think someone even PingER shot at you or certainly was

388
00:23:00,721 --> 00:23:04,680
Speaker 1: making to shoot you. Where in a bank where he

389
00:23:05,201 --> 00:23:07,321
Speaker 1: bailed all the customers up and there was down on

390
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,120
Speaker 1: the floor with one of the customers with a shotgun

391
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: to her head just for shits and giggles, and then

392
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:14,481
Speaker 1: you come on the scene. What happened?

393
00:23:15,001 --> 00:23:18,481
Speaker 2: Yeah, that again was when I was in the surveillance

394
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,521
Speaker 2: unit unarmed. How wouldn't they give you a gun because

395
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,841
Speaker 2: we weren't supposed to engage with the criminals back then.

396
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 2: We're only supposed to surveil them and watch them and

397
00:23:29,201 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 2: repull back. But you couldn't help yourself. I think I

398
00:23:32,801 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 2: soon put that to bed that it had to be done.

399
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 2: You know, there was no option. But in that particular

400
00:23:37,961 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 2: case you're talking about again, it was in the surveillance

401
00:23:40,721 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 2: unit and armed. Rostered to work with another fellow, Bob Robinson,

402
00:23:45,801 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 2: absolute Hero over Man Valor Award winner. And we're in

403
00:23:50,441 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 2: the Brunswick area. A call came over any unit clear

404
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 2: for a whole up alarm. Pretty sure it was a

405
00:23:56,961 --> 00:24:01,481
Speaker 2: Commonwealth bank corner of Whitby Street Melville Road in Brunswick.

406
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,921
Speaker 2: Robertson knew that area because he worked out that area.

407
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 2: He's in uniform. He said, jeez, that's just up the raid.

408
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,721
Speaker 2: We'll go up and sit off the bank and keep

409
00:24:11,761 --> 00:24:16,241
Speaker 2: it under observation. So he sat north of the bank

410
00:24:16,321 --> 00:24:19,961
Speaker 2: on the south side, about two hundred meters up the road,

411
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,201
Speaker 2: watching the front door. It's one of those old fashioned

412
00:24:23,241 --> 00:24:26,921
Speaker 2: banks with about four steps and a great big wooden

413
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:30,761
Speaker 2: glass tools. Oh god, it seemed like forever he was

414
00:24:30,801 --> 00:24:34,441
Speaker 2: sitting here and there was no response, no uniform, and

415
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 2: the operator keeps calling you any unit clean or any clear.

416
00:24:39,001 --> 00:24:42,360
Speaker 2: So I said, look, if it's an armed robbery, they're

417
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 2: been and gone because it's been that long. Would you

418
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,121
Speaker 2: like me to go in and confirm it? And he goes, yeah,

419
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,360
Speaker 2: by all means, be careful. So I walk up to

420
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:55,481
Speaker 2: the front door. In my mind it's a false alarm

421
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,321
Speaker 2: or they're been and gone. The glass door had stickers

422
00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:02,561
Speaker 2: all over it in different advertising, different things, so he

423
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,521
Speaker 2: couldn't really see in pull the door open. The first

424
00:25:06,561 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 2: thing I see is this lady laying face down, an

425
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,761
Speaker 2: old lady. I thought, oh Jesus, poor old girl's falling over,

426
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,561
Speaker 2: and I went to go over and help her up,

427
00:25:16,561 --> 00:25:18,801
Speaker 2: and then I noticed there's about half a dozen other

428
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,361
Speaker 2: people laying on the ground. And then this foresells out.

429
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,321
Speaker 2: Shoot him, shoot him, shoot him. And I look up

430
00:25:25,481 --> 00:25:30,161
Speaker 2: and two meters from my face is a crook standing

431
00:25:30,201 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 2: on the counter with his beanie on and pointing a

432
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:39,681
Speaker 2: shotgun right my face. So I just froze. The black

433
00:25:39,721 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 2: behind the counter, dropped the tray, made a noise distracted him.

434
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,681
Speaker 2: He looked around to see what it was, and I thought,

435
00:25:46,721 --> 00:25:51,041
Speaker 2: here's my opportunity. Bolted straight back out the door, waiting

436
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: for a gunshot, waiting to feel the pain of a

437
00:25:54,921 --> 00:25:58,561
Speaker 2: shot hit in my back. But got onto Melbolle Road,

438
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,641
Speaker 2: started running towards Robinson in his police car, and I'm

439
00:26:03,681 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 2: screaming there in there, in there, get back up. And

440
00:26:07,241 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: then I looked over my shoulder as I'm running, and

441
00:26:09,521 --> 00:26:11,801
Speaker 2: here they are. They've come out of the bank into

442
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 2: Malville Road, got their balaclavers, rolled up onto their heads,

443
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 2: got their hands over their face and leveling their guns

444
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,481
Speaker 2: at me. And I thought, shit, it a term to

445
00:26:22,561 --> 00:26:23,521
Speaker 2: murder me this month?

446
00:26:24,041 --> 00:26:25,241
Speaker 1: Did they know your police?

447
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,041
Speaker 2: Not at that stage? So I turned right into Malville Street,

448
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 2: which is on the corner. The crooks came out of

449
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: the bank, followed me into Malville Road, had their balaclavas

450
00:26:37,281 --> 00:26:40,721
Speaker 2: on top of their heads, hands covering the lower part

451
00:26:40,761 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: of their faces, and pointing their firearms at me, and

452
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 2: I just felt this cold shiver go through my body.

453
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,321
Speaker 2: I thought the determined to murder me. I then turned

454
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 2: right into Whitby Street and ran as fast as I

455
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 2: possibly could because I was a bit trimmer and fitted

456
00:26:59,441 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 2: back those day. But I can remember looking at my

457
00:27:02,321 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 2: feet as I was running, and they didn't seem to

458
00:27:04,241 --> 00:27:08,281
Speaker 2: be projecting me forward. It was a strange sensation. I thought,

459
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,001
Speaker 2: let's going hell, and I'm not getting far enough away

460
00:27:11,041 --> 00:27:15,121
Speaker 2: from them. And the next minute, Bob Robinson comes screaming

461
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:17,641
Speaker 2: around the corner. It was a valiant charge and the

462
00:27:17,721 --> 00:27:20,681
Speaker 2: unit we were in and he's tried to run them over,

463
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 2: and they leveled the guns at him and they jumped

464
00:27:23,481 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 2: into a doorway. In the meantime, off turn up another

465
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,561
Speaker 2: lane way and started jumping fence as quickly as I

466
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,041
Speaker 2: could to get as far away from because I was

467
00:27:33,681 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 2: determined they were going to kill me. And eventually I

468
00:27:36,761 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 2: got to the final fence and I just didn't have

469
00:27:40,001 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 2: any anything left in me. I was gone for all money.

470
00:27:43,441 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 2: So I squatted behind the fence, and I thought, the

471
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,481
Speaker 2: first spoke that comes over, I'm just gonna king hit

472
00:27:49,521 --> 00:27:51,881
Speaker 2: him and hope I can knock him out, and then

473
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 2: God knows what I'm going to do with the second one.

474
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 2: Thank god that didn't happen, because in the meantime, unbeknownst

475
00:27:58,241 --> 00:28:01,041
Speaker 2: to me, they jumped in the getaway car. So the

476
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:03,801
Speaker 2: reason they were furrowing me is because I was running

477
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: between them and they getaway. All they wanted was for

478
00:28:08,041 --> 00:28:10,281
Speaker 2: me to get out the way so they could get away.

479
00:28:10,801 --> 00:28:13,801
Speaker 2: So anyhow, obviously they're not coming over the fence, so

480
00:28:13,801 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 2: I'll make my way back into one of the main

481
00:28:16,721 --> 00:28:21,120
Speaker 2: streets and Robins comes screaming around and says, quick, get in,

482
00:28:21,201 --> 00:28:23,961
Speaker 2: get in. I know where they're gone. So we jump

483
00:28:24,001 --> 00:28:28,361
Speaker 2: in the car and he goes up back lines and

484
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 2: the call comes over we have them in custody. And

485
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,041
Speaker 2: what had happened was that they run into a front

486
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 2: yard of a house and hid under a bush. And

487
00:28:37,481 --> 00:28:41,361
Speaker 2: it was the first pinch of the air wing. Ever.

488
00:28:41,921 --> 00:28:43,281
Speaker 1: I was going to say, these days you'd have the

489
00:28:43,281 --> 00:28:46,081
Speaker 1: helicopter h charming in and these sorts of things.

490
00:28:46,161 --> 00:28:50,961
Speaker 2: This was a fixed wing aircraft, and ironically, the observer

491
00:28:51,161 --> 00:28:55,481
Speaker 2: in it was my old sergeant from Collingwood. When I work,

492
00:28:56,521 --> 00:28:59,001
Speaker 2: amazing set of circumstance because.

493
00:28:58,801 --> 00:29:01,561
Speaker 1: Those moments where someone is pointing their far im at

494
00:29:01,601 --> 00:29:05,281
Speaker 1: you and they are serious as cancer, in those moments.

495
00:29:05,121 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 2: It's well, you know what, I was just waiting for

496
00:29:08,521 --> 00:29:11,801
Speaker 2: the burning sensation of a bullet to go through me

497
00:29:12,001 --> 00:29:15,841
Speaker 2: because my mind, No were determined to kill me.

498
00:29:17,201 --> 00:29:20,241
Speaker 1: Because when we talk about Mark Militano, that was part

499
00:29:20,281 --> 00:29:22,721
Speaker 1: of a string of events that led up to Wall

500
00:29:22,761 --> 00:29:27,241
Speaker 1: Street murders of Damian Air and Steve Tynan in October

501
00:29:27,281 --> 00:29:32,761
Speaker 1: eighty eighth. The crooks, the Flemington Crew, Victor Pierce, Jed Harden, Graham,

502
00:29:32,801 --> 00:29:38,001
Speaker 1: Jensen McAvoy right, and they were saying that if another

503
00:29:38,081 --> 00:29:42,681
Speaker 1: of our fellows goes, it'll be time for payback. Were

504
00:29:42,721 --> 00:29:46,441
Speaker 1: you guys aware of the temperature rising period?

505
00:29:47,401 --> 00:29:53,281
Speaker 2: And allegedly they were going to murder two robbers squad

506
00:29:53,321 --> 00:29:57,761
Speaker 2: detectives for every one of these that they lost. And

507
00:29:57,881 --> 00:30:01,321
Speaker 2: again it's rumor, but rumor has it they didn't have

508
00:30:01,361 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: the courage because they thought they're too tough. I'll really

509
00:30:07,681 --> 00:30:10,321
Speaker 2: fix us up. And you have been on guard too,

510
00:30:10,361 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: I'd imagine, yeah, I mean no more getting around with

511
00:30:13,521 --> 00:30:16,681
Speaker 2: no guns or God no, no, we carried them twenty

512
00:30:16,681 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 2: four hours. Of course we could be called out at

513
00:30:18,961 --> 00:30:25,201
Speaker 2: any time, and we were so really their counts. But yeah,

514
00:30:25,241 --> 00:30:29,601
Speaker 2: that was just shocking, those two innocent policemen doing their job.

515
00:30:30,321 --> 00:30:32,561
Speaker 1: Do you remember where you were when you heard about that.

516
00:30:33,161 --> 00:30:37,641
Speaker 2: I was on holidays in Sydney, but I know it

517
00:30:37,761 --> 00:30:41,481
Speaker 2: was a pretty determined group of the arm or wersh

518
00:30:41,481 --> 00:30:44,961
Speaker 2: squad that wanted to get them and get them quickly.

519
00:30:45,481 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: There really was war after that, oh, I mean, there

520
00:30:47,801 --> 00:30:52,481
Speaker 1: was attempts by coroners and others to say that Victoria police.

521
00:30:52,961 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 2: Were gun happy, and it's easy allegation to make you

522
00:30:58,321 --> 00:31:02,161
Speaker 2: want to be sitting in the front row suit Quite differently,

523
00:31:02,801 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: you know, you got one guy sitting in his warm office.

524
00:31:06,361 --> 00:31:09,601
Speaker 2: The greatest threat is to get a paper cut, and

525
00:31:09,961 --> 00:31:13,761
Speaker 2: you've got the coppice in the front row wondering if

526
00:31:13,761 --> 00:31:16,321
Speaker 2: you're going to go home to their families that night,

527
00:31:16,681 --> 00:31:19,721
Speaker 2: and NEI are two extremes. Very easy to sit there

528
00:31:19,761 --> 00:31:24,801
Speaker 2: in a nice, warm atmosphere and make these decisions, but

529
00:31:25,001 --> 00:31:28,321
Speaker 2: not so easy when you're running a flat out.

530
00:31:28,481 --> 00:31:30,401
Speaker 1: Right and the impact on you personally and not all

531
00:31:30,521 --> 00:31:32,561
Speaker 1: your colleagues. I mean by this time. I think your

532
00:31:32,561 --> 00:31:35,681
Speaker 1: marriage is blown up at this point. By now, So

533
00:31:35,921 --> 00:31:37,281
Speaker 1: how was life for you at this point?

534
00:31:37,761 --> 00:31:42,801
Speaker 2: Well, it was devastating, really totally devastating. It was awful.

535
00:31:43,281 --> 00:31:45,761
Speaker 2: Never thought it had happened to me because I come

536
00:31:45,801 --> 00:31:49,881
Speaker 2: from a single parent family. I thought, no, that would

537
00:31:50,001 --> 00:31:53,841
Speaker 2: never happen to me. And there it is a did

538
00:31:54,361 --> 00:31:56,201
Speaker 2: as a result of police souls.

539
00:31:58,001 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: And do you see how you were back then and

540
00:32:00,481 --> 00:32:03,361
Speaker 1: how that may have contributed to the issues in your manners?

541
00:32:03,521 --> 00:32:07,281
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, I was married to the police ofs lived,

542
00:32:07,521 --> 00:32:10,521
Speaker 2: breathed ate it. I can tell you you don't get

543
00:32:10,761 --> 00:32:12,561
Speaker 2: any thanks for it. At the end of the day,

544
00:32:13,481 --> 00:32:16,041
Speaker 2: you questioned yourself was it worth it? I mean I

545
00:32:16,121 --> 00:32:18,081
Speaker 2: had a lot of good times. I met a lot

546
00:32:18,121 --> 00:32:23,681
Speaker 2: of good people. I met more evil people, but had

547
00:32:23,681 --> 00:32:24,401
Speaker 2: a heavy toll.

548
00:32:25,041 --> 00:32:28,641
Speaker 1: Another important date for you, both professionally and personally, was

549
00:32:28,641 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: the twelfth of June eighty seven, the early morning hours

550
00:32:32,281 --> 00:32:37,041
Speaker 1: when Mark Chopper Reid shot Sammy the Turk down at Bojangles.

551
00:32:37,961 --> 00:32:41,041
Speaker 1: At that time, Chopper was your informer, and it was

552
00:32:41,081 --> 00:32:43,201
Speaker 1: the start of a lot of dramas for you because

553
00:32:43,921 --> 00:32:45,521
Speaker 1: he wanted to get off and he was saying all

554
00:32:45,561 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: kinds of things. I've actually got a couple of photographs

555
00:32:47,521 --> 00:32:50,321
Speaker 1: that his father was sending around of Mark wearing a

556
00:32:50,321 --> 00:32:53,641
Speaker 1: bullet proof vest that he claimed that yourself and Steve Kerna,

557
00:32:53,761 --> 00:32:55,881
Speaker 1: your colleague, had given him.

558
00:32:56,521 --> 00:33:01,081
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, well, Chopper was my informer. And how that

559
00:33:01,161 --> 00:33:03,921
Speaker 2: came about was on my crew in there. I was

560
00:33:03,961 --> 00:33:08,081
Speaker 2: a sergeant crew of two. One of my crew was

561
00:33:08,121 --> 00:33:11,161
Speaker 2: a blake that was in the CMF as it was

562
00:33:11,241 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: then Citizens Military Forces. And in the same unit that

563
00:33:15,601 --> 00:33:19,561
Speaker 2: he was in was a screw from.

564
00:33:18,921 --> 00:33:20,361
Speaker 1: Would have been Bendigo.

565
00:33:20,201 --> 00:33:24,881
Speaker 2: Bendigar, Yeah, Bendigo, that's right. And he contacted my offsider

566
00:33:24,921 --> 00:33:27,281
Speaker 2: and said, look, we've got this bloke called Mark Reid

567
00:33:27,401 --> 00:33:30,561
Speaker 2: Chopper Red is a bit of a maniac, but what

568
00:33:30,841 --> 00:33:34,561
Speaker 2: he doesn't know about the underworld is not worth knowing.

569
00:33:34,721 --> 00:33:38,361
Speaker 2: And he's approached me, this screw and said, can you

570
00:33:38,481 --> 00:33:42,241
Speaker 2: put me on to someone out there, a policeman preferably

571
00:33:42,281 --> 00:33:45,281
Speaker 2: a detective, who I can talk to because I've got

572
00:33:45,681 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 2: so much information I could pass on to them. So

573
00:33:49,361 --> 00:33:53,801
Speaker 2: this fallet contacted my offsider and he said, yeah, look,

574
00:33:53,841 --> 00:33:56,881
Speaker 2: when this read blake gets out, tell him to ring

575
00:33:56,961 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 2: this number and we'll speak to him. Well, in the meantime,

576
00:34:01,281 --> 00:34:04,761
Speaker 2: this policeman that was getting this information went on leave,

577
00:34:05,441 --> 00:34:09,401
Speaker 2: so it was left to me. Eventually, read rigs me

578
00:34:09,401 --> 00:34:12,121
Speaker 2: when he gets out of jail, tells me he wants

579
00:34:12,161 --> 00:34:15,961
Speaker 2: to give me some information on various crimes and what

580
00:34:16,041 --> 00:34:19,601
Speaker 2: have you. So I arranged to meet him with my offsideer,

581
00:34:19,721 --> 00:34:23,801
Speaker 2: Steve Kerney in a hotel in Paran and we walk

582
00:34:23,841 --> 00:34:26,321
Speaker 2: in and there was no mistaken who he was. He

583
00:34:26,401 --> 00:34:29,201
Speaker 2: was huge, He just worked out at the gym all

584
00:34:29,321 --> 00:34:33,321
Speaker 2: day every day back then introduced ourselves, spoke a bit

585
00:34:33,321 --> 00:34:36,801
Speaker 2: of rubbish at a beer and I said, look mate,

586
00:34:37,161 --> 00:34:40,961
Speaker 2: this is very unusual. You've got to agree. Why do

587
00:34:41,001 --> 00:34:44,041
Speaker 2: you want to give us information expecting to be paid,

588
00:34:44,921 --> 00:34:48,921
Speaker 2: expecting favors. What's behind it? He goes, no, not at all,

589
00:34:49,001 --> 00:34:51,281
Speaker 2: and he acted as though he was really put out.

590
00:34:51,321 --> 00:34:55,001
Speaker 2: But we suggested that. He said, I've spent the last

591
00:34:55,161 --> 00:35:00,401
Speaker 2: fifteen years of eating, living, drinking in the same environment

592
00:35:00,521 --> 00:35:02,721
Speaker 2: as these pigs, and I hate them and I want

593
00:35:02,721 --> 00:35:06,681
Speaker 2: to stitch them up. I thought, he just doesn't ring true.

594
00:35:06,721 --> 00:35:11,761
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not liking this. Why it's never happened

595
00:35:11,761 --> 00:35:13,961
Speaker 2: to me before, And I thought, there's got to be

596
00:35:14,001 --> 00:35:16,961
Speaker 2: more to it. So I wanted time to think. So

597
00:35:17,041 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 2: I said, look, okay, we've my contact. Let's meet back

598
00:35:20,561 --> 00:35:23,841
Speaker 2: here again tomorrow and you'll have had time to think

599
00:35:23,881 --> 00:35:27,041
Speaker 2: about what you're suggesting, and we'll have time to think

600
00:35:27,081 --> 00:35:30,241
Speaker 2: about it. And he was very put out and upset.

601
00:35:30,441 --> 00:35:32,681
Speaker 2: I could see. Thought, they don't trust me, they don't

602
00:35:32,721 --> 00:35:36,841
Speaker 2: believe me. So we meet him the next day, same pub,

603
00:35:37,561 --> 00:35:39,881
Speaker 2: standing at the bar and he's got a Caliica bag.

604
00:35:40,561 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: We walk in, greet each other, and he up ends

605
00:35:43,961 --> 00:35:48,001
Speaker 2: the contents of this Caligo bag on the bar and

606
00:35:48,041 --> 00:35:52,761
Speaker 2: there's six handguns fall out, and I was so angry.

607
00:35:52,841 --> 00:35:55,561
Speaker 2: I just I don't know why I was angry, but

608
00:35:55,641 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: I was really angry. I said, you fucking idiot, what

609
00:36:00,041 --> 00:36:03,321
Speaker 2: do you think you're doing? Oh? Why, why, mister Pooter,

610
00:36:03,441 --> 00:36:04,121
Speaker 2: what have I done?

611
00:36:04,201 --> 00:36:04,401
Speaker 1: You know?

612
00:36:05,081 --> 00:36:08,121
Speaker 2: He said, I got these off Mad Charlie, and I

613
00:36:08,201 --> 00:36:10,561
Speaker 2: want to show you that he has access to guns.

614
00:36:10,601 --> 00:36:14,641
Speaker 1: And Mad Charlie had Glazy met before pen was actually but.

615
00:36:14,681 --> 00:36:17,961
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyhow, I put the guns in back in the

616
00:36:18,001 --> 00:36:21,881
Speaker 2: bag and we confiscated those. I said, don't ever ever

617
00:36:22,321 --> 00:36:26,201
Speaker 2: do anything like that again. Again. He was his put

618
00:36:26,241 --> 00:36:30,401
Speaker 2: out because I didn't appreciate his efforts. But then we

619
00:36:30,721 --> 00:36:34,361
Speaker 2: met continually after that and he gave us good information.

620
00:36:34,481 --> 00:36:36,601
Speaker 2: We were locking crooks up with fright and said it.

621
00:36:37,521 --> 00:36:40,761
Speaker 2: And then there was an armed robbery on a armored

622
00:36:41,241 --> 00:36:45,881
Speaker 2: van in glen Waverley. The crooks were a Valiant and

623
00:36:45,961 --> 00:36:49,001
Speaker 2: they came screaming around the corner, jumped out of the Valiant,

624
00:36:49,001 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 2: one out of machine gun. He opened up on the van.

625
00:36:52,321 --> 00:36:54,521
Speaker 2: I thank god no one was killed. One of the

626
00:36:54,561 --> 00:36:58,641
Speaker 2: guards got hit in the ankle and they did their

627
00:36:58,721 --> 00:37:03,561
Speaker 2: robbery and they missed, and unusually, we did not get

628
00:37:03,721 --> 00:37:08,321
Speaker 2: any information at all who it might be. We tried

629
00:37:08,401 --> 00:37:12,841
Speaker 2: every venue we had and source of information. We got nowhere,

630
00:37:13,721 --> 00:37:16,121
Speaker 2: and it was frustrating because it was such a horrific

631
00:37:16,481 --> 00:37:21,161
Speaker 2: arm robbery. Eventually a member of the drug squad came

632
00:37:21,241 --> 00:37:24,681
Speaker 2: and saw me and he said, look, we've got bugs

633
00:37:25,001 --> 00:37:28,161
Speaker 2: in a particular house. And one of the blacks says,

634
00:37:28,241 --> 00:37:32,721
Speaker 2: said that was a major job that young Brian O'Callaghan pulled.

635
00:37:32,721 --> 00:37:36,241
Speaker 2: The other week. Brian O'Callaghan was again a prolific arm robber.

636
00:37:36,641 --> 00:37:39,601
Speaker 2: So I thought that all we've got, let's try and

637
00:37:39,801 --> 00:37:42,401
Speaker 2: work on him and see how we go. And I

638
00:37:42,441 --> 00:37:46,321
Speaker 2: found out that his sister lived in Preston or somewhere

639
00:37:46,361 --> 00:37:49,641
Speaker 2: out that way. I got an address and I said

640
00:37:49,681 --> 00:37:52,721
Speaker 2: to read, do you know Brian O'Callaghan. He said, oh yes,

641
00:37:53,641 --> 00:37:55,601
Speaker 2: And I said, is there any chance of you making

642
00:37:55,721 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 2: contact with him and get talking about this particular armed

643
00:37:59,481 --> 00:38:02,721
Speaker 2: robbery and see if he gives any indication that he

644
00:38:02,801 --> 00:38:04,721
Speaker 2: was involved, and if he was, we will put all

645
00:38:04,761 --> 00:38:10,001
Speaker 2: our eggs in that basket. And he because, yeah, no problem.

646
00:38:10,361 --> 00:38:12,961
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if it was that night or the

647
00:38:13,001 --> 00:38:16,401
Speaker 2: next night now, but he makes contact with us, and

648
00:38:17,321 --> 00:38:20,601
Speaker 2: he said, look, I went to young Brian's sister's house

649
00:38:20,641 --> 00:38:24,921
Speaker 2: and explained who I was and gave her my address

650
00:38:24,961 --> 00:38:27,681
Speaker 2: on a piece of paper. Told him to look me

651
00:38:27,761 --> 00:38:31,201
Speaker 2: up and he said. And that night I was leaving

652
00:38:31,281 --> 00:38:34,001
Speaker 2: home about eight o'clock at night to go to the pub.

653
00:38:34,841 --> 00:38:37,841
Speaker 2: He said, a car come screaming around the corner and

654
00:38:37,921 --> 00:38:40,081
Speaker 2: Blake in the back seat opens up on me with

655
00:38:40,201 --> 00:38:42,961
Speaker 2: three shots bang, bang bang, And he said, no, I

656
00:38:42,961 --> 00:38:45,161
Speaker 2: think it's young Brian telling me he doesn't want to

657
00:38:45,201 --> 00:38:50,081
Speaker 2: talk to me. So from that I thought, okay, he

658
00:38:50,121 --> 00:38:53,361
Speaker 2: doesn't want to get involved with this, because obviously he's

659
00:38:53,401 --> 00:38:56,001
Speaker 2: a bit close to Brian because I didn't believe the

660
00:38:56,041 --> 00:39:00,921
Speaker 2: shots were fired. I'd heard nothing, and that's the kind

661
00:39:00,921 --> 00:39:02,761
Speaker 2: of thing that would have come to note. Well you

662
00:39:02,761 --> 00:39:06,961
Speaker 2: would think so. But I then contacted the Collingwood police

663
00:39:07,001 --> 00:39:11,201
Speaker 2: station after we dismissed him, and said, did you have

664
00:39:11,321 --> 00:39:14,201
Speaker 2: some shots fired us? Oh? Yeah, it was in history.

665
00:39:14,721 --> 00:39:17,921
Speaker 2: He said you have three shots. Fine, So we get

666
00:39:17,921 --> 00:39:20,481
Speaker 2: back in touch with him, and he said, look, I

667
00:39:20,641 --> 00:39:23,761
Speaker 2: really want to keep doing this job. There's ten thousand

668
00:39:23,841 --> 00:39:25,481
Speaker 2: reasons for me to do it, because he was a

669
00:39:25,521 --> 00:39:29,441
Speaker 2: ten thousand dollar reward. But I'll need some protection. And

670
00:39:29,481 --> 00:39:32,481
Speaker 2: I said, absolutely, no way are you going to get

671
00:39:32,481 --> 00:39:37,801
Speaker 2: a fire run because it's just fraught with danger. I'm

672
00:39:37,841 --> 00:39:38,761
Speaker 2: not going to be part of that.

673
00:39:39,881 --> 00:39:42,161
Speaker 1: Well, he said, have access to his own anyway.

674
00:39:42,281 --> 00:39:46,721
Speaker 2: Exactly, he could get them any time anyway. He has

675
00:39:46,801 --> 00:39:48,801
Speaker 2: no no, no, He said, I was thinking of a

676
00:39:48,841 --> 00:39:52,681
Speaker 2: bulletproof fest, just to give me a bit of insurance. Well,

677
00:39:52,721 --> 00:39:56,721
Speaker 2: in those days, the police weren't issued bulletproof fests. But

678
00:39:56,841 --> 00:40:00,001
Speaker 2: one blake that was in the robbery squad, he just

679
00:40:00,041 --> 00:40:04,241
Speaker 2: got a job as a sergeant back in uniform up

680
00:40:04,321 --> 00:40:08,201
Speaker 2: the country. He bought his own vest and when he

681
00:40:08,321 --> 00:40:09,961
Speaker 2: left he said, I'm going to leave this in ma

682
00:40:10,041 --> 00:40:14,641
Speaker 2: locker for you guys if you ever need to use it.

683
00:40:15,081 --> 00:40:18,641
Speaker 2: There it is okay. We can lend him this vest

684
00:40:19,121 --> 00:40:22,641
Speaker 2: for his insurance, as he put it, and hopefully we'll

685
00:40:22,641 --> 00:40:26,881
Speaker 2: get a result. So that night, that very night, he

686
00:40:26,961 --> 00:40:31,201
Speaker 2: goes down to bow Jangles nightclub in Saint Kilda and

687
00:40:32,361 --> 00:40:37,401
Speaker 2: murder Sami the Turk and shows everyone the bullet professed

688
00:40:37,481 --> 00:40:40,161
Speaker 2: under his shirt. And I got this from now robbery Squad.

689
00:40:40,321 --> 00:40:43,481
Speaker 2: He's boasting, so he never ever tried to hide the

690
00:40:43,481 --> 00:40:46,321
Speaker 2: fact that he was an informer. Of course, we know

691
00:40:46,441 --> 00:40:50,281
Speaker 2: nothing about this until the next morning. I come into

692
00:40:50,321 --> 00:40:56,041
Speaker 2: work with Steve Kerna, my offsider, and we came from

693
00:40:56,121 --> 00:40:58,841
Speaker 2: the eastern suburbs, so he used to come down North

694
00:40:58,961 --> 00:41:02,521
Speaker 2: Road and then turn right into Saint Kilda Road to

695
00:41:02,601 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 2: go to four one two Saint Kilda Road where we work.

696
00:41:06,001 --> 00:41:09,081
Speaker 2: And on this morning a call comes over the radio

697
00:41:09,161 --> 00:41:13,321
Speaker 2: as we're driving in. Can someone check out a drunk

698
00:41:13,361 --> 00:41:17,201
Speaker 2: out the front of Bojangles nightclub laying in the gutter,

699
00:41:17,841 --> 00:41:22,081
Speaker 2: And then we hear this female voice comes up and

700
00:41:22,281 --> 00:41:25,801
Speaker 2: she says it's not a drunk. He's being shot through

701
00:41:25,841 --> 00:41:28,521
Speaker 2: the eye. He's dead. So I said to Steve, Oh,

702
00:41:28,601 --> 00:41:31,761
Speaker 2: let's go by this and over look what's going on.

703
00:41:32,481 --> 00:41:36,201
Speaker 2: So we did, and there's this young policewoman standing near

704
00:41:36,241 --> 00:41:39,841
Speaker 2: with a policeman. That young policewoman is now my wife.

705
00:41:40,161 --> 00:41:43,681
Speaker 2: So I head back to the office with Steve Kerno

706
00:41:43,761 --> 00:41:46,121
Speaker 2: and I said to Steve, you know what, It's got

707
00:41:46,161 --> 00:41:48,561
Speaker 2: all the hallmarks of top a reed. And he said

708
00:41:48,561 --> 00:41:49,921
Speaker 2: do you think so? And I said, yeah, I got

709
00:41:49,961 --> 00:41:54,041
Speaker 2: a gut feeling it's him. I said, Buggert, I'm going

710
00:41:54,081 --> 00:41:56,441
Speaker 2: to bring him in. So we called him in, have

711
00:41:56,561 --> 00:41:59,441
Speaker 2: him in the interview room and I said, job, that

712
00:41:59,801 --> 00:42:02,521
Speaker 2: turk that was murdered last night, I reckon that was

713
00:42:02,561 --> 00:42:06,721
Speaker 2: here that did that job. And he said, Porter, every

714
00:42:06,761 --> 00:42:09,841
Speaker 2: little kid that cuts his finger, are we going to

715
00:42:09,841 --> 00:42:12,361
Speaker 2: look at chop a reed for that? And I said no.

716
00:42:13,041 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 2: I said, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but that's

717
00:42:15,601 --> 00:42:18,961
Speaker 2: my gut. Fairly, he goes, no, you're barking up the

718
00:42:19,001 --> 00:42:22,601
Speaker 2: wrong tree. So we continue to talk a bit of rubbish,

719
00:42:23,241 --> 00:42:27,041
Speaker 2: and then out of the blue he said, okay, mister Porter,

720
00:42:28,001 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 2: it was me that shot the turk last night. He said,

721
00:42:31,481 --> 00:42:34,361
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, what have I done?

722
00:42:34,841 --> 00:42:38,161
Speaker 2: I got rid of a dirty fucking Dayga drug dealer.

723
00:42:40,161 --> 00:42:44,561
Speaker 2: I said, right, well, I'm sorry, my friend, but I'm

724
00:42:44,561 --> 00:42:48,241
Speaker 2: going to have to arrest you for murder, which I did.

725
00:42:48,561 --> 00:42:53,041
Speaker 2: Contact the domicide squad and they came and grabbed him,

726
00:42:53,081 --> 00:42:57,801
Speaker 2: interviewed him, charged him. Later that night from the remand center,

727
00:42:57,881 --> 00:43:01,081
Speaker 2: he rings me and says, I've just looked at that

728
00:43:01,841 --> 00:43:04,481
Speaker 2: take they got me on video and audio when they

729
00:43:04,521 --> 00:43:08,241
Speaker 2: interviewed me, and he said, I sound like a complete idiot.

730
00:43:08,281 --> 00:43:11,241
Speaker 2: He said, I want to be interviewed again, and I said, well,

731
00:43:11,281 --> 00:43:14,121
Speaker 2: that's not my call. I don't know if they do that,

732
00:43:14,321 --> 00:43:16,761
Speaker 2: but I'll let them know. So I rang them and

733
00:43:16,801 --> 00:43:19,201
Speaker 2: they said, yeah, that's not a problem, we'll interview him again.

734
00:43:19,641 --> 00:43:23,241
Speaker 2: So they did, and he contacts me and said the

735
00:43:23,281 --> 00:43:26,641
Speaker 2: second one was worse than the first one. And I said, well, mate,

736
00:43:26,641 --> 00:43:28,121
Speaker 2: you know I can't help that.

737
00:43:28,521 --> 00:43:30,401
Speaker 1: He thinks he's making a movie, not a confession.

738
00:43:30,601 --> 00:43:30,841
Speaker 2: Yeah.

739
00:43:31,201 --> 00:43:31,401
Speaker 1: Yeah.

740
00:43:31,641 --> 00:43:35,881
Speaker 2: And then several weeks later, one of the informants from

741
00:43:35,881 --> 00:43:39,961
Speaker 2: the homicide squad, he's out at Pentridge visiting Reid for

742
00:43:40,001 --> 00:43:44,721
Speaker 2: whatever reason, and read says to him, mister Smith will

743
00:43:44,721 --> 00:43:48,121
Speaker 2: call me mister Smith. He said, mister Porter's not dark

744
00:43:48,161 --> 00:43:49,761
Speaker 2: on me. Is he, And he says, well, what do

745
00:43:49,841 --> 00:43:53,481
Speaker 2: you think I've skipped a bit here, because in the meantime,

746
00:43:54,601 --> 00:44:00,641
Speaker 2: Reid has produced thirty stat declarations implicating me in every

747
00:44:00,961 --> 00:44:04,121
Speaker 2: crime in Victoria and into state that you can think of.

748
00:44:04,241 --> 00:44:06,841
Speaker 2: I just missed out on the Bumont children and so

749
00:44:07,401 --> 00:44:10,921
Speaker 2: that became an internal investigation. They put a task force

750
00:44:11,001 --> 00:44:16,241
Speaker 2: on me. And he says, mister Pororter is not dark

751
00:44:16,281 --> 00:44:18,441
Speaker 2: on me. He's a result of this. And he said, well,

752
00:44:18,481 --> 00:44:21,281
Speaker 2: what do you think you know you've made these bloody

753
00:44:21,321 --> 00:44:25,881
Speaker 2: stat decks up and you're causing him grief. And he says,

754
00:44:25,961 --> 00:44:29,441
Speaker 2: but surely he understands. She said, when you have a

755
00:44:29,481 --> 00:44:32,481
Speaker 2: body at the bottom of a pool, you're throwing a

756
00:44:32,481 --> 00:44:35,801
Speaker 2: couple of handfuls of dirt just to muddy the situation.

757
00:44:36,801 --> 00:44:38,961
Speaker 2: And he goes, yeah, well, I don't think he sees

758
00:44:39,001 --> 00:44:40,001
Speaker 2: it that way, my friend.

759
00:44:40,081 --> 00:44:45,481
Speaker 1: And that was that, because ultimately he was acquitted, So

760
00:44:45,961 --> 00:44:49,081
Speaker 1: I guess you could say he's mudding the waters. Finally

761
00:44:49,121 --> 00:44:51,761
Speaker 1: worked for him in some fashion or other. Absolutely, but

762
00:44:51,841 --> 00:44:54,401
Speaker 1: it was interesting when I saw him do the interview

763
00:44:54,441 --> 00:44:57,921
Speaker 1: with sixty Minutes just before his death, and three of

764
00:44:57,961 --> 00:45:00,201
Speaker 1: the four murders that he was confessing to clearly he

765
00:45:00,241 --> 00:45:03,361
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with it. But amongst all that

766
00:45:03,521 --> 00:45:08,601
Speaker 1: bullshit was the true confession about killing Sammy the Turk

767
00:45:09,121 --> 00:45:12,161
Speaker 1: that was no longer self defense. And I think you'd

768
00:45:12,201 --> 00:45:15,361
Speaker 1: known from the beginning. Everyone's in the Chopper film where

769
00:45:15,401 --> 00:45:19,081
Speaker 1: he's talking to Sammy and outside and Sammy allegedly grabs

770
00:45:19,081 --> 00:45:21,201
Speaker 1: the handgun out of his waist belt and points at

771
00:45:21,241 --> 00:45:23,281
Speaker 1: him and click, so he pulls his four teen shot

772
00:45:23,281 --> 00:45:25,961
Speaker 1: gun out and foots him. But I think you got

773
00:45:26,001 --> 00:45:30,201
Speaker 1: a pretty different impression from the first conversation that this

774
00:45:30,361 --> 00:45:34,321
Speaker 1: was just a cold blooded murder and robbery very much,

775
00:45:34,361 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 1: are you well?

776
00:45:35,441 --> 00:45:38,121
Speaker 2: He told me himself eventually, because down the track, as

777
00:45:38,161 --> 00:45:41,481
Speaker 2: you know, we formed the relationship after he got out

778
00:45:41,681 --> 00:45:45,281
Speaker 2: of jail again and I got him on the talking circuit.

779
00:45:45,321 --> 00:45:47,961
Speaker 2: That was me that got him onto that. Because you're

780
00:45:48,041 --> 00:45:51,561
Speaker 2: to blame, he blame. He had no means of making

781
00:45:51,601 --> 00:45:55,001
Speaker 2: a dollar, no one was going to employ. But what

782
00:45:55,081 --> 00:45:57,921
Speaker 2: he told me was that he was at the nightclub

783
00:45:58,161 --> 00:46:01,081
Speaker 2: with some people I don't know who they were, and

784
00:46:01,121 --> 00:46:03,641
Speaker 2: he saw Sammy the Turk at the bar pull out

785
00:46:03,681 --> 00:46:07,161
Speaker 2: a big wad of notes and buy his group around

786
00:46:07,161 --> 00:46:10,961
Speaker 2: of drinks. Chopper asked these people who's that and they

787
00:46:11,001 --> 00:46:14,201
Speaker 2: said that's Sami. The Turkey's a drug dealer. Chopper went

788
00:46:14,241 --> 00:46:17,121
Speaker 2: over to Sammi and said, do you know who I am?

789
00:46:17,441 --> 00:46:21,281
Speaker 2: And Sammy said, yeah, you'll chop a root. And he said,

790
00:46:21,321 --> 00:46:23,681
Speaker 2: I was watching you pull that big wad of money

791
00:46:23,681 --> 00:46:27,921
Speaker 2: out of your pocket and that's extremely dangerous in this establishment.

792
00:46:28,841 --> 00:46:30,961
Speaker 2: He said to you carry a gun and Sammy said, no,

793
00:46:31,081 --> 00:46:34,401
Speaker 2: I don't. And Chopper said, well, would you like to

794
00:46:34,441 --> 00:46:37,721
Speaker 2: come into the car park. I've got several guns in

795
00:46:37,761 --> 00:46:40,041
Speaker 2: the boot of my car. You might like to buy one.

796
00:46:40,601 --> 00:46:43,281
Speaker 2: Keep in mind, Chopper didn't drive, he didn't have a car.

797
00:46:44,361 --> 00:46:47,561
Speaker 2: And Sammy goes, yeah, okay, I'll come out and have

798
00:46:47,601 --> 00:46:49,761
Speaker 2: a look at him. And as they stepped into the

799
00:46:49,841 --> 00:46:52,561
Speaker 2: car park, Read pulled the four ten out at the

800
00:46:52,561 --> 00:46:55,081
Speaker 2: back of his pants, which was a sawn all four ten,

801
00:46:55,641 --> 00:46:58,201
Speaker 2: and shot him in the eye, took his money, and

802
00:46:58,321 --> 00:47:02,521
Speaker 2: he came up with a story about Sammy grabbing this

803
00:47:02,641 --> 00:47:08,161
Speaker 2: pistol out of Chopper's belt. Chopper told me that pistol

804
00:47:08,601 --> 00:47:11,681
Speaker 2: was doctored in some way that it wouldn't fire a

805
00:47:11,761 --> 00:47:14,441
Speaker 2: shot first up. You had to, you know, if you

806
00:47:14,481 --> 00:47:16,361
Speaker 2: grabbed it and pulled the trigger, it wouldn't fly. You

807
00:47:16,401 --> 00:47:19,841
Speaker 2: had to cock it first or some such thing, and

808
00:47:19,881 --> 00:47:23,041
Speaker 2: then it had fire automatically, one after the other. So

809
00:47:23,161 --> 00:47:26,001
Speaker 2: he knew that. So even if that was true, he

810
00:47:26,081 --> 00:47:28,481
Speaker 2: knew that if the Turk grabbed the gun, it wasn't

811
00:47:28,521 --> 00:47:29,641
Speaker 2: going to fire first.

812
00:47:30,481 --> 00:47:33,361
Speaker 1: So he basically confessed afterwards. And it was probably good

813
00:47:33,441 --> 00:47:36,881
Speaker 1: lawyering by Bernie the Attorney O Bama, Yes, and he

814
00:47:36,961 --> 00:47:40,041
Speaker 1: managed to hoodwink everybody. But ultimately I think that conscience,

815
00:47:40,401 --> 00:47:42,361
Speaker 1: I mean, and you know, that's one thing you do

816
00:47:42,481 --> 00:47:44,641
Speaker 1: have in common. You've both been in a position where

817
00:47:44,641 --> 00:47:50,161
Speaker 1: you've taken a life, and I'm sure that it weighed

818
00:47:50,161 --> 00:47:53,281
Speaker 1: on him differently to you because you did it in

819
00:47:53,281 --> 00:47:56,081
Speaker 1: the line of duty, But I think still taking a

820
00:47:56,161 --> 00:47:58,081
Speaker 1: life like that, and when it came to the end

821
00:47:58,081 --> 00:48:00,561
Speaker 1: of his life, even though he was being paid, you

822
00:48:00,641 --> 00:48:03,281
Speaker 1: helped him get on the speaking circuit. I helped him

823
00:48:03,321 --> 00:48:06,041
Speaker 1: make that money from Channel nine by taking that bunch

824
00:48:06,041 --> 00:48:07,761
Speaker 1: of rubbish to Tanne on know, which I regret in

825
00:48:07,761 --> 00:48:10,401
Speaker 1: some ways because it goes against everything I think is

826
00:48:10,441 --> 00:48:13,921
Speaker 1: important in journalism that sixty minutes should have represented. And

827
00:48:13,961 --> 00:48:15,881
Speaker 1: they were prepared to let him tell lies for a

828
00:48:15,961 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: quarter million dollars. But amongst all that, there was that

829
00:48:19,721 --> 00:48:22,841
Speaker 1: proper confession, and I think that was something in his

830
00:48:23,001 --> 00:48:26,041
Speaker 1: conscience that he needed to unburden himself when you had

831
00:48:26,041 --> 00:48:28,521
Speaker 1: this time to talk to him afterwards, when you had

832
00:48:28,561 --> 00:48:31,201
Speaker 1: to caravan park up the country, and it sounds like

833
00:48:31,241 --> 00:48:32,201
Speaker 1: that's what he was saying to you.

834
00:48:33,441 --> 00:48:35,801
Speaker 2: Yeah, he visits quite a few times up here at

835
00:48:35,841 --> 00:48:38,521
Speaker 2: the caravan park. He was a different person.

836
00:48:39,761 --> 00:48:43,721
Speaker 1: And basically all those inquiries, the lack of support you

837
00:48:43,761 --> 00:48:45,921
Speaker 1: got from Victoria Police back then was one of the

838
00:48:45,921 --> 00:48:48,121
Speaker 1: reasons why you think you ended up pulling the pin.

839
00:48:48,441 --> 00:48:54,161
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I just felt very lipped down one particular

840
00:48:54,481 --> 00:48:59,041
Speaker 2: assistant commissioner that well, after they'd done the internal inquiries,

841
00:48:59,081 --> 00:49:01,761
Speaker 2: which went for months, and it was I can tell

842
00:49:01,761 --> 00:49:05,681
Speaker 2: you they turned over ever relief in my life, and

843
00:49:05,721 --> 00:49:08,801
Speaker 2: they came to the conclusion, this is all bullshit. These

844
00:49:08,801 --> 00:49:12,281
Speaker 2: are all wise And it went to the officer in

845
00:49:12,441 --> 00:49:16,081
Speaker 2: charge of id internal investigations at that time and said,

846
00:49:16,961 --> 00:49:21,001
Speaker 2: we recommend he gets at a reprimand were counseling for

847
00:49:21,281 --> 00:49:24,361
Speaker 2: lending him the vest and he said, no charge him.

848
00:49:24,681 --> 00:49:29,961
Speaker 2: Let the courts decide. So thank you very much. And

849
00:49:30,041 --> 00:49:32,001
Speaker 2: I think that was the beginning of the end for me.

850
00:49:32,721 --> 00:49:35,561
Speaker 2: I thought I'd give them my heart and soul to

851
00:49:35,641 --> 00:49:39,281
Speaker 2: this job and a marriage, and this is what I

852
00:49:39,321 --> 00:49:43,441
Speaker 2: get in return. So yeah, that was very difficult to

853
00:49:43,481 --> 00:49:47,401
Speaker 2: live with because I think I was a staunch person

854
00:49:48,321 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 2: and I was staunched to the organization. That's the way

855
00:49:52,001 --> 00:49:52,721
Speaker 2: they treated me.

856
00:49:54,841 --> 00:49:57,481
Speaker 1: The eras were changing, I think as well, yes, and

857
00:49:57,761 --> 00:50:00,321
Speaker 1: life was different from when you joined those years earlier.

858
00:50:00,321 --> 00:50:03,201
Speaker 1: But I guess on the plus side, that day that

859
00:50:03,201 --> 00:50:07,681
Speaker 1: that nightmare began was also the day when another era

860
00:50:07,801 --> 00:50:10,521
Speaker 1: in your own life began, because that, as you mentioned before,

861
00:50:10,561 --> 00:50:16,721
Speaker 1: that pretty young policewoman became your wife. Yes, so rough

862
00:50:16,721 --> 00:50:17,761
Speaker 1: and smooth on that day.

863
00:50:18,121 --> 00:50:22,121
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, of course I didn't know

864
00:50:22,161 --> 00:50:25,641
Speaker 2: who she was and never met her before. And then

865
00:50:26,321 --> 00:50:31,601
Speaker 2: marriage went down and that was a problem, and I

866
00:50:31,681 --> 00:50:34,801
Speaker 2: became the officer in char I took promotion and became

867
00:50:34,841 --> 00:50:37,481
Speaker 2: the officer in charge of the Saint Kilda police station.

868
00:50:37,761 --> 00:50:41,961
Speaker 2: Mine now wife worked at Saint Kilda and we struck

869
00:50:42,041 --> 00:50:46,201
Speaker 2: up a relationship and here we are thirty something years later,

870
00:50:46,321 --> 00:50:48,681
Speaker 2: still married and two children.

871
00:50:49,041 --> 00:50:52,961
Speaker 1: And I think having a partner who is a policewoman

872
00:50:53,401 --> 00:50:55,481
Speaker 1: does that make it easier to share the burdens of

873
00:50:55,521 --> 00:50:55,881
Speaker 1: the job.

874
00:50:56,001 --> 00:50:59,921
Speaker 2: Yes, most definitely, she had her own burdens at various times.

875
00:50:59,961 --> 00:51:03,641
Speaker 2: You know, probably not as dramatic as might but I

876
00:51:03,681 --> 00:51:07,561
Speaker 2: remember telling me when she first graduated, she's eighteen sent

877
00:51:07,601 --> 00:51:11,241
Speaker 2: to domestics, and she said, with people who've been married

878
00:51:11,281 --> 00:51:13,961
Speaker 2: fifteen twenty years, trying to tell them how to sort

879
00:51:13,961 --> 00:51:17,961
Speaker 2: their lives out. And her first job was a car

880
00:51:18,041 --> 00:51:20,561
Speaker 2: that had overturned and they just came across it all

881
00:51:20,681 --> 00:51:26,001
Speaker 2: night shift by accident, and Blake's heads busted open and

882
00:51:26,361 --> 00:51:29,601
Speaker 2: brain exposed and everything, and she had to climb into

883
00:51:29,641 --> 00:51:34,241
Speaker 2: the vehicle with him and hold him together and try

884
00:51:34,281 --> 00:51:37,721
Speaker 2: and comfort him. And the emma has came and did

885
00:51:37,761 --> 00:51:41,481
Speaker 2: what they do, and she said, I was just covered

886
00:51:41,481 --> 00:51:44,161
Speaker 2: in blood, this blank's blood. You know, that's just a

887
00:51:44,161 --> 00:51:47,481
Speaker 2: couple of things. There's many things she's had to endure,

888
00:51:47,721 --> 00:51:53,321
Speaker 2: you know, domestic violence victims, a whole gamut the police

889
00:51:53,321 --> 00:51:54,441
Speaker 2: in general left to deal with.

890
00:51:55,321 --> 00:51:56,801
Speaker 1: So you found that was sort of part of your

891
00:51:56,841 --> 00:51:58,881
Speaker 1: relationship when you were getting together, you were able to

892
00:51:58,921 --> 00:52:00,481
Speaker 1: discuss the issues in your policing.

893
00:52:00,761 --> 00:52:02,601
Speaker 2: Yes, careers, it was.

894
00:52:03,601 --> 00:52:08,681
Speaker 1: It was helpful talking your sleep there. I got the.

895
00:52:08,641 --> 00:52:14,281
Speaker 2: Worst PTSD you can imagine, and I live with it

896
00:52:14,361 --> 00:52:17,801
Speaker 2: to this day. You know, I've never sought professional help

897
00:52:17,881 --> 00:52:21,361
Speaker 2: for it. Just last night I frightened owl out of

898
00:52:21,401 --> 00:52:24,281
Speaker 2: her because I was punching the crap out of my

899
00:52:24,521 --> 00:52:30,321
Speaker 2: pillow about four o'clock in the morning at home. Several

900
00:52:30,401 --> 00:52:34,801
Speaker 2: times I dive out of bed to tackle Crimson, knock

901
00:52:34,881 --> 00:52:39,361
Speaker 2: the bedside lamp and everything on the bedside table over

902
00:52:39,441 --> 00:52:41,721
Speaker 2: and I end up on the floor and I wake

903
00:52:41,881 --> 00:52:45,041
Speaker 2: up and I what am I doing here? She's terrified,

904
00:52:45,601 --> 00:52:48,881
Speaker 2: and I understand this one night she's going to be

905
00:52:49,441 --> 00:52:51,401
Speaker 2: on the end of one of those punches, you know,

906
00:52:51,601 --> 00:52:58,841
Speaker 2: And I do that constantly. And I did seek assistance.

907
00:52:58,881 --> 00:53:03,041
Speaker 2: I went to a side and she in more professional. Man,

908
00:53:03,081 --> 00:53:06,721
Speaker 2: I said, you're as nutty as a fruitcake. And this

909
00:53:06,921 --> 00:53:11,761
Speaker 2: was all bored on thanks to vic Pole, and you should,

910
00:53:12,401 --> 00:53:16,161
Speaker 2: you know, seek compensation and what have you? Vic Pole

911
00:53:16,241 --> 00:53:19,321
Speaker 2: sent me to the person who said, does nothing wrong

912
00:53:19,321 --> 00:53:23,201
Speaker 2: with her, this is all crap and see you later.

913
00:53:24,241 --> 00:53:26,921
Speaker 2: So I just lost interest and thought I can't be

914
00:53:27,001 --> 00:53:31,801
Speaker 2: bothered pursuing this. And here I am, No, he is

915
00:53:31,801 --> 00:53:32,321
Speaker 2: a fruitcake.

916
00:53:34,161 --> 00:53:36,881
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, wonder you have dreams and things at least

917
00:53:36,881 --> 00:53:39,001
Speaker 1: they're not as bad as Rodger Rogerson used to talk

918
00:53:39,041 --> 00:53:41,681
Speaker 1: in his sleep. I know from a bloke who traveled

919
00:53:41,681 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: with him in his last years, he'd have dreams where

920
00:53:44,441 --> 00:53:48,041
Speaker 1: he'd say things like, it's all in the brief, We're fucked.

921
00:53:50,561 --> 00:53:52,241
Speaker 1: So you haven't got those sort of memories.

922
00:53:52,241 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 2: No, thank god.

923
00:53:54,481 --> 00:53:56,441
Speaker 1: Anyway, it's been such a pleasure to shared these memories

924
00:53:56,481 --> 00:53:58,921
Speaker 1: with you. But I think you're one of the good ones,

925
00:53:58,921 --> 00:54:01,881
Speaker 1: and you came to a very, very dangerous era. No,

926
00:54:02,241 --> 00:54:04,761
Speaker 1: it's no wonder you feel a little sore changed by

927
00:54:04,841 --> 00:54:07,521
Speaker 1: Victor Police. And you've also your son's in the job

928
00:54:07,601 --> 00:54:10,801
Speaker 1: now as well, so your family has done its public service.

929
00:54:11,361 --> 00:54:14,241
Speaker 2: Oh, I think for sure. For sure, I hope he

930
00:54:14,321 --> 00:54:19,041
Speaker 2: never has to experience some of the things that I did,

931
00:54:19,481 --> 00:54:24,841
Speaker 2: although he's had his own share of traumatic events already.

932
00:54:24,121 --> 00:54:25,561
Speaker 1: And he's got to work on the mustache a bit

933
00:54:25,561 --> 00:54:27,161
Speaker 1: more as well. It's not it's not quite up to

934
00:54:27,401 --> 00:54:29,561
Speaker 1: seventies robbery standards.

935
00:54:29,881 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 2: It needs a bit of fertilizer.

936
00:54:31,481 --> 00:54:34,081
Speaker 1: I think, Thanks your Tom, I appreciate it.

937
00:54:34,201 --> 00:54:34,561
Speaker 2: Thank you.

938
00:54:40,761 --> 00:54:43,881
Speaker 1: That was rod Porter, one of my favorite police officers.

939
00:54:44,281 --> 00:54:46,641
Speaker 1: I feel like we could have gone on talking all day.

940
00:54:47,121 --> 00:54:49,841
Speaker 1: There are so many more stories from those heady days,

941
00:54:50,281 --> 00:54:53,281
Speaker 1: some of them still can't be told. If you've got

942
00:54:53,281 --> 00:54:55,121
Speaker 1: a story that you'd like to tell on the podcast,

943
00:54:55,361 --> 00:54:57,921
Speaker 1: please get in touch. You can send me an email

944
00:54:57,961 --> 00:55:01,361
Speaker 1: to Adam Shander writer at gmail dot com. If you'd

945
00:55:01,361 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: like to report a crime, call crime Stoppers on one

946
00:55:04,441 --> 00:55:08,001
Speaker 1: eight hundred, triple three, triple zero. If you don't trust

947
00:55:08,041 --> 00:55:10,281
Speaker 1: the cops, or you get no action, you can always

948
00:55:10,321 --> 00:55:13,441
Speaker 1: tell me. This has been Adam Shann for Real Crime.

949
00:55:13,801 --> 00:55:15,601
Speaker 1: As always, thanks for listening.