WEBVTT - From The Front: Hedley Thomas’ new cold case podcast, 'Bronwyn'

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<v Speaker 1>From The Australian. I'm Claire Harvey. This is an episode

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<v Speaker 1>of our daily news podcast The Front. Six years after

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<v Speaker 1>The Teacher's Pet made waves around the world, The Australian's

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<v Speaker 1>National Chief correspondent Hedley Thomas is back with a brand

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<v Speaker 1>new podcast investigation. This time, Headley's delving into the cold

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<v Speaker 1>case of Bronwyn Winfield, a young mum who disappeared from

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<v Speaker 1>an idyllic surf town on the New South Wales North

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<v Speaker 1>Coast more than three decades ago. In today's episode, Hedley

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<v Speaker 1>explains how this story found him and if he thinks

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<v Speaker 1>it can be solved. In twenty eighteen, Australian journalism blew

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<v Speaker 1>up with a huge story told in a grouping new way,

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<v Speaker 1>an investigative podcast by The Australian's National Chief correspondent Headley Thomas.

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<v Speaker 1>The Teacher's Pet has had more than eighty million downloads

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<v Speaker 1>around the world and it resulted in the arrest, charge

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<v Speaker 1>and murder conviction of its subject, Christopher Michael Dawson. He

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<v Speaker 1>is now appealing. What almost no one knows is that

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<v Speaker 1>at that time another big story was brewing in the background.

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<v Speaker 1>Family members and friends of another missing woman, Bronwyn Winfield

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<v Speaker 1>was struck by the similarities between her case and that

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<v Speaker 1>of Lynnette Simms, whose disappearance heavily investigated in the Teacher's

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<v Speaker 1>pet In those early days, years before Lynn's husband Chris

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<v Speaker 1>Dawson would be brought to justice, Bromwin's loved one reached

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<v Speaker 1>out to Hedley, urging him to look into her nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>ninety one disappearance from Lennox head in the New South

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<v Speaker 1>Wales Northern Rivers region, but Bromwin's name was already on

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<v Speaker 1>Headley's radar.

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<v Speaker 2>It was late twenty seventeen Claire I was interviewing the

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<v Speaker 2>former Deputy State Coroner for New South Wales, Karl Milavanovitch,

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<v Speaker 2>about the case of Chris Dawson and the allegations that

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<v Speaker 2>he'd murdered his wife Lynn all those years ago in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty two. And while I was talking to Karl,

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<v Speaker 2>he expressed his grave concerns about a number of cases

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<v Speaker 2>involving missing women, women who had suddenly disappeared. They had

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<v Speaker 2>ties to the community, they had small children. Lynn was

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<v Speaker 2>one of those, and he mentioned the case of Bromwin Winfield.

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<v Speaker 2>He told me that he had run an inquest into

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<v Speaker 2>that case in two thousand and two, and he'd made

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<v Speaker 2>a recommendation about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's the moment first heard Bromwyn Winfield's name from Karl Milvanovich.

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<v Speaker 3>I did an inquest of a lady called Bromwyn Windfield,

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<v Speaker 3>and she had two kids as well, and she went

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<v Speaker 3>to bed one night, and she disappeared next day. And

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<v Speaker 3>there was some suggestion from a neighbor that.

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<v Speaker 2>And I didn't have time then to deal with it,

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<v Speaker 2>but I wanted to revisit it at some point, and

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<v Speaker 2>I guess for the last six and a half years,

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<v Speaker 2>I've been collecting bits and pieces and talking to people

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<v Speaker 2>connected to the case, reaching out to Bromwin's family. What

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<v Speaker 2>also happened was that as the episodes of the Teacher's

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<v Speaker 2>Pet began unfolding from May twenty eighteen, people who were

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<v Speaker 2>listening they were reminded of something that had just eaten

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<v Speaker 2>away at them for some time, that there hadn't been

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<v Speaker 2>a proper resolution of Bromwin's disappearance, the deeply suspicious circumstances

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<v Speaker 2>surrounding it, and they urged me to get involved in it.

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<v Speaker 1>Today, all the information and evidence headly collected over the

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<v Speaker 1>years has made it out of the folder. He created

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<v Speaker 1>on that day in twenty seventeen and into a new

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<v Speaker 1>podcast investigation for The Australian. It's called Bronwyn and it

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<v Speaker 1>is hauntingly similar to the disappearance of Lynn Dawson. Loving

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<v Speaker 1>young moms, sudden disappearances, families left in the grief and

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<v Speaker 1>shock of ambiguous loss.

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<v Speaker 2>Sadly, it's the case that across Australia police forces through

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<v Speaker 2>the eighties and nineties, and no doubt earlier, were unwilling

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<v Speaker 2>to look at foul play as the probable reason for

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<v Speaker 2>the sudden disappearances of loving, dedicated young mums, particularly those

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<v Speaker 2>going through a marital breakdown, So when they disappeared, the

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<v Speaker 2>paperwork was just filed in the bottom drawer mark missing person,

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<v Speaker 2>not given a high priority as a possible homicide. And

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<v Speaker 2>this is what Karl Milivanovitch identified in a number of

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<v Speaker 2>these missing women cases that he dealt with as a

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<v Speaker 2>senior coroner before his retirement. When he flagged that to

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<v Speaker 2>me when I met him at his home in late

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<v Speaker 2>twenty seventeen, it was a bit of a light bulb

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<v Speaker 2>moment because you think, gosh, how many other cases are there?

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<v Speaker 2>This was a systemic problem. It's no longer the case today.

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<v Speaker 2>If a young mum like Bromwin suddenly disappeared at the

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<v Speaker 2>same time as she's newly separated from her husband, there

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<v Speaker 2>would almost certainly be a very committed police investigation, looking

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<v Speaker 2>at all of the unusual circumstances and making sure that

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<v Speaker 2>witnesses were soon interviewed. But unbelievably, for the first five

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<v Speaker 2>years after Bromwin's disappearance, the police did not even take

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<v Speaker 2>a statement from anybody. They spoke to just a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of neighbors. They didn't bring anyone down to the police

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<v Speaker 2>station to take a formal statement. They didn't properly search

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<v Speaker 2>the house or the car. It's hard to believe how

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<v Speaker 2>poor the original investigation was.

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<v Speaker 1>Bromwn Winfield was just thirty one years old when she

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<v Speaker 1>disappeared from the home built by her husband John.

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<v Speaker 2>Bromwyn was to everybody who knew her, an incredibly caring

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<v Speaker 2>and devoted young mum. She had two daughters. They were Lauren,

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<v Speaker 2>who was five, and Crystal ten. Bromwan was close to

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<v Speaker 2>her brother her cousins. She'd had a difficult childhood because

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<v Speaker 2>her own mother, when Bromwin was two, had postnatal depression

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<v Speaker 2>and she disappeared from her own young children, and very sadly,

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<v Speaker 2>when Bromwin herself disappeared, some twenty nine years after her

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<v Speaker 2>own mother had disappeared, there was for the police a link.

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<v Speaker 2>They thought, well, is she doing what her own mother

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<v Speaker 2>had done. The circumstances were very, very different. Bromwyn was

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<v Speaker 2>of very sound mind. She had plans, She was making plans,

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<v Speaker 2>She had appointments the next day. The kids were going

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<v Speaker 2>back to school on the Monday.

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<v Speaker 1>John was Bromwin's second husband and the relationship had been

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<v Speaker 1>strained for some time.

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<v Speaker 2>She wanted to leave her husband John, and indeed she did.

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<v Speaker 2>She moved into a townhouse that she couldn't really afford,

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<v Speaker 2>but she knew she had to get away, only a

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<v Speaker 2>short drive from the family home, the home that John

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<v Speaker 2>had built. He's a very skilled bricklayer. He could build

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<v Speaker 2>houses from scratch and this house was his pride and joy.

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<v Speaker 2>She disappeared on the Sunday evening. She had very little money,

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<v Speaker 2>She didn't have means to support herself, but she and

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<v Speaker 2>her husband were going to be having an argument over

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<v Speaker 2>who got the spoils from the marriage. How would that

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<v Speaker 2>property settlement unfold? And on the evening she disappeared. Her

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<v Speaker 2>husband had left Sydney to fly back. He'd been working

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<v Speaker 2>in Sydney building a house, and he became aware that

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<v Speaker 2>Bromwin had moved from the rented townhouse with the girls

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<v Speaker 2>back into the family home, the home that she had

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<v Speaker 2>had to leave when they separated. She was there for

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<v Speaker 2>two nights and then on the Sunday, John arrived and

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<v Speaker 2>that's the last time anybody ever saw or heard from Bromwin.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she tucked to her children into bed that night, Headley,

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<v Speaker 1>how do we know that were the children interviewed by police.

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<v Speaker 2>Bromwin's eldest daughter did talk to police several years later,

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<v Speaker 2>but the children were also in touch with their auntie

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<v Speaker 2>and uncle. They spoke to their neighbors and friends. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's not disputed by John that the children were in

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<v Speaker 2>bed that Sunday night. In fact, John readily acknowledges that

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<v Speaker 2>he was at the house too, and according to some accounts,

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<v Speaker 2>he acknowledged that he actually had a disagreement with Bromin

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<v Speaker 2>on the Sunday night. But his story is that she

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<v Speaker 2>got into a car after she had made one or

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<v Speaker 2>two phone calls from the bedroom, a car turned up.

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<v Speaker 2>He doesn't know what sort of car it was. He

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<v Speaker 2>said he couldn't see the driver, doesn't know who was

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<v Speaker 2>driving it. She got into that vehicle and left. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a very unusual thing for her to do,

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<v Speaker 2>to go away for a break. She hadn't told her

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<v Speaker 2>friend she was going away for any sort of break.

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<v Speaker 2>She left behind pretty much everything, and she had very

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<v Speaker 2>little in the way of money. That's why her family

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<v Speaker 2>was very concerned immediately. But local police did a very

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<v Speaker 2>poor job in the early stages. They really just treated

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<v Speaker 2>Bromwin as if she was doing what her mother had done,

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<v Speaker 2>that she was a runaway mom, abandoning her family, her

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<v Speaker 2>husband and her kids. Crystal has described having heard raised

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<v Speaker 2>voices her parents arguing, and then she must have fallen

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<v Speaker 2>asleep because she was woken up along with Lauren, late

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<v Speaker 2>at night, probably around ten thirty pm, maybe a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit earlier. John left the house with his daughters and

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<v Speaker 2>drove through the night to Sydney, arriving the next morning.

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<v Speaker 2>The children were duet school on the Monday. It was

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<v Speaker 2>in school holidays, and they ended up staying in Sydney

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<v Speaker 2>for ten or eleven days. And then John, at the

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<v Speaker 2>urging of Bromwan's brother drove back up to Lennox and

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<v Speaker 2>did report Bromwyn missing to police.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up, why it's taken so long for Bromwyn Winfield's

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<v Speaker 1>case to be taken seriously? The podcast Bronwyn is available

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<v Speaker 1>now at bronwynpodcast dot com. That's b ro Nwyn podcast

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<v Speaker 1>dot com. Subscribers to The Australian are the first to

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<v Speaker 1>hear episodes of Headly Thomas's brand new investigative podcast series.

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<v Speaker 1>Plus they get breaking news alerts direct to their phones,

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<v Speaker 1>all our lively commentary and access to special events. Check

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<v Speaker 1>us out at The Australian dot com dot au and

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<v Speaker 1>we'll be back after this break. There were eleven days

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<v Speaker 1>between Bronwyn Winfield was last seen and the time her

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<v Speaker 1>husband John reported her missing to police. On his account,

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<v Speaker 1>Bronwyn had said she was going away for a few

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<v Speaker 1>days to take some time for herself. So why the delay?

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's a very good question, Claire, And as

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<v Speaker 2>best I can understand from talking to Bromwin's family and friends,

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<v Speaker 2>they were waiting for John to make that move and

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<v Speaker 2>they were urging him to do so for some time. Andy,

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<v Speaker 2>who is Broman's brother, he had told John that if

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<v Speaker 2>he didn't report Broman missing to the police. Andy would.

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<v Speaker 2>A woman called Deb Hall, who was Bromin's very good

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<v Speaker 2>friend and nearest neighbor. She told me that she said

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<v Speaker 2>was the same effect. She was very, very concerned about

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<v Speaker 2>Bromwin and what had happened. She knew how devoted Bromin

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<v Speaker 2>was as a mum, the plans that Bromwin had made.

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<v Speaker 2>She was happy to be back in her house. She

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<v Speaker 2>had flagged no plan or intention to leave the house,

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<v Speaker 2>and Deb couldn't see when Deb went through the house

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<v Speaker 2>that Broman had actually anything with her except for her handbag,

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<v Speaker 2>which wasn't there.

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<v Speaker 1>In two thousand and two, the former Deputy State Coroner

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<v Speaker 1>Karl Milvanovitch, who you heard about at the top of

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<v Speaker 1>his episode, found Bronwyn Winfield was dead. He recommended to

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<v Speaker 1>the New South Wales Director of Public Prosecutions that John

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<v Speaker 1>Winfield be charged with her murder. Nicholas Cowdery, who was

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<v Speaker 1>the DPP, then didn't pursue it. He said there was

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<v Speaker 1>no evidence John had killed Bronwyn or played any role

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<v Speaker 1>in her death. It's a decision that's baffled Bronwin's loved

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<v Speaker 1>ones for decades. This is a feature of the justice

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<v Speaker 1>system that I think some people might not know so

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<v Speaker 1>much about. Can you explain Headley, how it can be

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<v Speaker 1>that a coroner can make a recommendation about a case

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<v Speaker 1>like this that doesn't turn into a prosecution.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that there's such a mismatch between what happens

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<v Speaker 2>when a coroner runs an inquest involving sometimes many days,

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes a week of public hearings with witnesses appearing and

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<v Speaker 2>giving evidence under oath, and then the coroner, who's often

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<v Speaker 2>an experienced senior magistrate, makes certain findings and recommendations, and

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<v Speaker 2>then there's this behind closed door paperwork review by unknown

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<v Speaker 2>lawyers in the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

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<v Speaker 2>They review the recommendation, and presumably they go through the evidence.

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<v Speaker 2>Often the police brief is very extensive. But how much

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<v Speaker 2>of the evidence do they go through? Do they read

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<v Speaker 2>all the transcripts and witness statements. Are they at a

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<v Speaker 2>sufficiently senior level to really appreciate what the senior coroner

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<v Speaker 2>has appreciated. We don't know, because that process is very opaque.

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<v Speaker 1>You reached out to John Winfield. What did he say?

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<v Speaker 2>John Winfield got back to me and he acknowledged the

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<v Speaker 2>letter that I had written to him seeking his side

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<v Speaker 2>of the story. He said that he had previously answered

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<v Speaker 2>something like four hundred and fifteen questions from a homicide

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<v Speaker 2>squad detective and he stood by all the answers he

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<v Speaker 2>gave to those, and we'll unpack those in several episodes

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<v Speaker 2>of the podcast series. He said also, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>this is very interesting because it's a reflection of some

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<v Speaker 2>of the things that have been said over the years

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<v Speaker 2>by him about Bromwin. That her side of the family

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<v Speaker 2>has a long generational history of mental illness, on the

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<v Speaker 2>male and female side. That's how he put it. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>I've talked to Bromwyn's good friends in Lennox Head, I've

0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:50.480
<v Speaker 2>talked to family members. The police have obviously talked to

0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.800
<v Speaker 2>many people because when the police did do a very

0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:57.920
<v Speaker 2>thorough investigation starting in nineteen ninety eight, many dozens of

0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:02.200
<v Speaker 2>statements were taken by Detective side Glenn Taylor, and in

0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:06.200
<v Speaker 2>none of those interviews or statements does anyone say Bromwin

0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:09.800
<v Speaker 2>was showing signs of mental illness. It just doesn't register.

0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:15.520
<v Speaker 2>Bromen was a very capable, intelligent, motivated young mum. It

0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:18.720
<v Speaker 2>seems that having separated from John, she knew what she

0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.000
<v Speaker 2>wanted to do. She just wanted to start again with

0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:25.480
<v Speaker 2>her two girls, but without John, and the next stage

0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.040
<v Speaker 2>in that process was working out what she would walk

0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.720
<v Speaker 2>away with, what portion of the house and all the

0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:34.280
<v Speaker 2>assets that they had jointly strived to achieve together she

0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:37.040
<v Speaker 2>would be able to have to start again.

0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:40.880
<v Speaker 1>What's your instinct, Headley, Is this case solvable?

0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:41.960
<v Speaker 3>Well?

0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:45.280
<v Speaker 2>I think all these cases are potentially solvable. It would

0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:50.320
<v Speaker 2>only take some fresh new information that is really probative

0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:55.400
<v Speaker 2>that somebody has not disclosed, has for whatever reason, decided

0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:59.400
<v Speaker 2>to keep to themselves for many years. If somebody comes

0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:03.440
<v Speaker 2>forward with that to the police directly to me, then

0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.560
<v Speaker 2>if it's corroborated and checked out, that can make a difference.

0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:10.800
<v Speaker 2>It could show that somebody else, somebody other than John Winfield,

0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:14.000
<v Speaker 2>was responsible. For example, I mean, we don't know what

0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.000
<v Speaker 2>happened on that Sunday night. John's story is she got

0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.919
<v Speaker 2>into a car driven by a stranger, and that's that.

0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:24.960
<v Speaker 2>Who knows. Maybe somebody has some information about that, Maybe

0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:28.240
<v Speaker 2>they have information about something else that John hasn't told us,

0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:32.080
<v Speaker 2>But of course they can be solved. Bromwyn disappeared nine

0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:35.960
<v Speaker 2>years after Lynn disappeared. People believe that Lynn's case could

0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:37.840
<v Speaker 2>never be solved, and it was.

0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:45.760
<v Speaker 1>There is an important difference in the stories of Lynn

0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:50.320
<v Speaker 1>Sims and Bromwyn Winfield. John Winfield has never been charged

0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:54.160
<v Speaker 1>and there's no suggestion that he's anything like Chris Dawson.

0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:59.560
<v Speaker 1>But the similarities between Lynn and Bromwyn are inescapable, loving,

0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.240
<v Speaker 1>coctive mothers whose children were robbed of their right to

0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:05.800
<v Speaker 1>a safe, secure maternal bond.

0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.080
<v Speaker 2>I think we need to be very careful to not

0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:12.959
<v Speaker 2>conflate them or see them as being cut from the

0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:19.200
<v Speaker 2>same cloth. John Winfield has always emphatically denied any involvement

0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:23.720
<v Speaker 2>in foul play. He certainly has never been charged with anything.

0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:28.000
<v Speaker 2>The coroner recommended to the then DPP Nicholas Cowdery that

0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:33.760
<v Speaker 2>he should be charged and considered for prosecution over Bromwin's

0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:38.600
<v Speaker 2>suspected murder, but in the DPP's assessment back in two

0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:43.280
<v Speaker 2>thousand and three, there was insufficient evidence. Of course, there's

0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:47.439
<v Speaker 2>nobody and some might argue that Bronwin has been living

0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:54.120
<v Speaker 2>a life somehow incognito, having never been seen. In my opinion,

0:18:54.640 --> 0:19:00.359
<v Speaker 2>that is just completely implausible. Bromwin's almost certainly dead. What

0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:03.840
<v Speaker 2>we don't know is when she died and how she died.

0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:09.040
<v Speaker 2>But the idea that a very committed mum of thirty

0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:12.440
<v Speaker 2>one years old could spend the next thirty one years

0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:17.960
<v Speaker 2>somehow eking out a life, remaining unnoticed, being able to

0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:22.359
<v Speaker 2>support herself, and never contact two little girls with whom

0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.040
<v Speaker 2>she had a very beautiful and loving relationship is just

0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:46.640
<v Speaker 2>ridiculous in my view.

0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:51.679
<v Speaker 1>Betly Thomas is The Australian's national Chief correspondent and the

0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:56.480
<v Speaker 1>creator of our new investigative podcast series, Bronwyn. Subscribers to

0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.080
<v Speaker 1>The Australian are the first to hear it. You can

0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:02.000
<v Speaker 1>register to listen to the first two episodes now at

0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:07.199
<v Speaker 1>bromwan podcast dot com. We've also got exclusive stories, maps, timelines,

0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:12.240
<v Speaker 1>graphics and video and for all Australia's best journalism twenty

0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:15.600
<v Speaker 1>four seven go to The Australian dot com dot AU.

0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:18.880
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us on the front this week. Our

0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:22.840
<v Speaker 1>team is Kristin Amiot, Leat Sammaglu, Josh Burton, Jasper Leigue,

0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:25.960
<v Speaker 1>Tiffany Dimack, Matthew Condon and me Claire Harvey.