WEBVTT - The Police Theory | William Tyrrell: 4 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:06.680 Okay, I called David Laidlaw. 0:00:07.000 --> 0:00:07.440 Thank you. 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:13.000 David Laidlaw is the detective leading the investigation into William 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:14.120 Tihan's disappearance. 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:16.120 How would you take your oath for an information? 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:17.479 Cudney. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.640 He's tall and heavy set, with white hair and a 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:23.120 thick white mustache. 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:24.400 And your occupation. 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:29.440 I'm a detective chief inspector and you're with the homicide squad. 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:33.600 That's correct, Thank you. David's what you might call a 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:35.000 veteran policeman. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:42.240 You've been with the force since the late seventies. 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:45.400 That's correct, meaning he's been a cop for longer than 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:46.800 I have been alive. 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:51.879 And you've been a detective since nineteen eighty eight. 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:52.880 That's correct. 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:58.240 Train And he's been a detective investigating serious crimes since 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:01.120 I was in primary school and still getting pocket money. 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:05.120 And you joined the Unsolved Homicide Team in twenty seventeen, 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:05.600 is that right? 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:06.240 That's correct. 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:10.039 His job today is as Investigation Coordinator of the New 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:15.399 South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Team, roughly forty detectives whose 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.760 job it is to go back over cases that others 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:23.880 couldn't solve and solve them. Every one of those cases 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:28.000 represents a grieving family who might have waited decades for 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:32.840 an answer. New South Wales Police has around eight hundred 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:36.920 unsolved cases on its books, although the numbers are a 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:38.080 bit uncertain. 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:40.600 And you say that as at the date of your statement, 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:43.560 there were eight hundred and twenty nine of those cases. 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:44.880 Yes, that's correct. 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:48.360 Yes, the figures provided by New South Wales Police as 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:54.920 at yesterday for that period is seven hundred and ninety. 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:57.120 Yes, I can assist. 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:00.720 Now, do you know what's happened to those files? 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:01.560 No? I don't know. 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:03.480 He should know. 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:08.000 That's why David's being questioned by this special Commission of 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:12.480 Inquiry held last year to investigate the police response to 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:17.200 specific hate crimes, because it's his job to oversee the 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:21.480 review of those unsolved cases. The way it works is 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:24.360 another cop takes a first look at the file, called 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:28.160 a triage. They then report to David, who decides if 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:32.200 the case will be formally reviewed. Only then can it 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:37.080 be reinvestigated. And all of this can take weeks or 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:39.680 months or years. 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:42.560 Two hundred and thirteen have not yet been triarched. 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:46.160 Now with their figures should be one hundred and twenty five. 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:48.480 I see, So. 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:53.680 That's one hundred and twenty five possible unsolved murders. The 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.880 Unsolved Homicide Team have never looked at. 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:59.960 Some of those cases, maybe decades off. 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:04.720 They could be is The Unsolved Homicide Team was established 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:08.560 back in two thousand and four, but the triage is 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:10.600 just the first stage of their work. 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:11.480 Now. 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.560 According to these figures, there are two hundred and ninety 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:18.200 one cases where it appears at least that no review 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:19.000 has been completed. 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:21.520 That's correct. 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:24.959 One hundred and twenty five cases plus two hundred and 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:29.720 ninety one cases equals quite a backlog. That's hundreds of 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:35.800 possible murders grieving families. David says, it's a resource issue. 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:40.320 You have to understand the resource implications. We don't have 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:42.960 enough people to do them. Mean enough people are made 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:44.720 by people who are qualified. 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.840 At this point, the head of the inquiry interrupts him. 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.520 Out of more resource has been requested. 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:57.000 No, so David hasn't asked for any help. 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:02.520 That's correct. But I know there's nineteen three hours ready 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.120 for me to vid. I haven't had the opportunity to 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:13.040 vid yet for how long since? Since I'd say since June, 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:13.800 I would say. 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.600 Last year, so that there was nineteen where somebody has 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:20.480 completed a review and sent it to you to assist, 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:22.200 I've been sitting on your desk. 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:23.520 For over twelve months, that's correct. 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:28.080 Yes, when do you expect to get to them? 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:28.919 I don't know. 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:36.719 Just to stress, that's nineteen families waiting maybe decades for 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:40.880 an answer to what happened, not knowing the file detailing 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:45.359 their loved ones possible murder has been triaged by a detective, 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:50.880 then sat unopened on David's desk for the past year. 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.719 And have you drawn this to the Commissioner's attention that 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:57.040 you need more resources one way or the other? 0:04:57.400 --> 0:04:58.120 No, I haven't, sir. 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:02.720 Why not if the work is that important or does 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:04.799 it not require urgent attention? 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:07.240 It does require a little. 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.719 Well, then why hasn't somebody said something to the commissioner 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:14.000 instead of sitting quietly leaving files collecting dust on the desk. 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:16.920 If I can reiterate what I said before, is that 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:19.960 we're going from a backlog of we've still got treo 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:23.080 as forms that have been completed that we cannot get 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:26.520 out of even the review because there's so many of them. 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.360 Do I work on the basis that the present Commissioner 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:33.720 is entirely unaware of the resources issues that you currently face. 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:34.360 Is that right? 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:36.200 That's correct? 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:44.520 So well, it is remarkable form assosa, Yes, that's true. 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.279 The inquiry's final report set it is difficult to see 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:55.040 how these resource issues could provide a justification for Detective 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:59.040 Chief Inspector laid Law to fail to perform his own 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:04.400 function in relation to these nineteen cases. David said part 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:08.280 of the reason was he was busy investigating the disappearance 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:15.880 of William Tyrol. He's still investigating William's disappearance. I'm Dan 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.880 box and from news dot com dot Au. This is 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:36.279 Witness William tyrrel Episode four. The police theory. Those nineteen 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.960 files David laid Law's not had time to open, and 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:44.599 the nineteen grieving families they represent, I can't help but 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:48.080 see them as part of the fallout from the investigation 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:54.040 into William's disappearance. And there are others like William's biological family, 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:57.640 where his grandmother says she lost her son over the 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:01.560 past ten years when they haven't had any answers and 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:06.560 she lost herself as well. David is still working to 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:09.880 solve the case, though, and the police have now set 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:12.160 their sights on William's foster mother. 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:13.760 Where are we. 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:17.000 This is the house where William went missing. 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:20.560 So Nina, who's the producer on this podcast, and I 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:23.160 have come to the house where William was reported missing 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:27.320 to try walking through the police's theory of what happened 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:32.040 to him. So this is what the police now think 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.320 happened to William, and we've pieced this together from the 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.280 cross examination of their new suspects in the New South 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:41.720 Wales Crime Commission and the cross examination of one of 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:47.640 the detectives investigating William's disappearance in court. In court, that 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:51.520 detective confirmed that this is one of their theories and 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:55.400 he said the police believe they know where William's body 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:58.680 was disposed of, and that he's formed the view that 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:05.360 William's foster mother knows where William Tool is. The house 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.600 where William was reported missing is a big, two story 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.400 building at the top of a dead end road called 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:16.080 Bennerum Drive. The neighbour's houses are all set back from 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:19.800 the road and each house is surrounded by a wide garden. 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:23.760 It looks like a nice place to live, blue sky, 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:28.920 green grass, the quiet, but behind the houses on either 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:34.480 side is forest. The last known photograph of William Tool 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:36.880 was taken at nine thirty seven on the morning he 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:39.920 went missing, and he's wearing his Spider Man suit on 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.120 this verandah of the house. The photo is taken by 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:46.560 his foster mother, and you can see William's happy. His 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:50.480 mouth is open like he's laughing or he's excited or 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:54.200 he's roaring. And we know the foster mother's there because 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:56.839 she took the photograph, and we know that her mum 0:08:56.920 --> 0:09:00.600 is there, but the foster father, her husband, he's left 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:02.600 the home earlier that morning. He's gone to make a 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:05.000 work call. He needs internet reception to do that. 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:07.400 And just to say, we do have a point in 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.200 time for when he left because there was CCTV, right. 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:14.160 Yeah, So all of that's been confirmed, but the uncertainty 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:16.760 is over the time of the photographic could be out 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:21.000 by two hours, so that would make it seven thirty seven, 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.360 not nine thirty seven. The foster mum told police when 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.360 she was asked about this, that she didn't know how 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.200 to set the camera. But the police and later the 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:32.679 inquest have looked at this. There's been forensic examination and 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:35.480 both accept that nine thirty seven is accurate. 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:38.360 And I look at that picture and I just think. 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:44.120 Minutes, minutes and our world has changed. 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:48.200 This is William's foster mother from an interview with both 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:52.160 foster parents recorded by New South Wales police months after 0:09:52.200 --> 0:10:01.360 he was reported missing. So Evan, let's start the timer 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:06.160 now after the photograph's taken. The foster mother tells police 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:09.960 that William Tirell did more drawing on the verandah, and 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:13.400 she remembers playing with dice with him. She was teaching 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.480 the kids how to count, and William's sister came over 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.040 and she wanted to join in, and William withdrew. 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:22.479 So that's all his foster mum's account. 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:27.040 She's told police that William then got bored and he 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:31.160 tried different activities, including a game that they called Daddy Tiger. 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:33.440 So William was roaring at the grown ups. 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:36.720 But the foster mother tells police that at some point 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:40.040 William Tirell jumped down off the deck on his own. 0:10:41.440 --> 0:10:45.319 He's got a really good sense of adventure, but he's 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:47.760 got a really good understanding of his limitations. 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.000 He's not not a wanderer, not a child to run away. 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:55.360 Always had us in earshot or eyesight. 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:56.360 She says. 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.240 She told him to put his shoes on, but he's 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:04.040 barefoot in the photograph. But the thing is, there's been 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.040 a whole bunch of controversy about this photo. There's been 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:09.440 headlines in the newspaper about did he have shoes on? 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:11.720 Didn't he have shoes on? And does that mean somebody 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:12.199 is lying. 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:15.600 The foster mother says she told him to put his 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.000 shoes on because there might be bindi's in the grass. 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:23.320 Yeah, so that's that was the argument that was made, 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:24.199 that there weren't bedis. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:26.599 There was a whole bunch of controversy online in the 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:27.920 newspapers about whether or not. 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:28.840 It was bindy season. 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.080 We're at the house and there's a bindi and it's 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:32.800 that time of year. 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:34.959 So look the long and the short of that is. 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.400 I think it's all irrelevant. William could put his own 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:40.199 shoes on, and his shoes. 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:41.400 Had velcro straps, so. 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.719 Whatever the foster mother said, he could have put shoes on. 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:50.880 At the time, William is said by his foster mother 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.600 to have jumped down off this verandah and run off 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:57.240 around the corner of the house. He's running up and 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:01.440 roaring and running away, and she says she asked William, 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:05.400 can you see Daddy's car? Because his foster father was 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:07.000 due to come back at any moment. 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:12.720 He's not a kid that would just run into something. 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:15.960 He would stop and think, he would consider what he 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:17.600 would do before he would do anything else. 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:22.400 Yeah, Yeah, and sid stay within within distance, knowing how 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:23.720 far away he was from. 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:28.400 Us, and the foster mum remembers that her tea was hot, 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:31.800 and she remembers drinking some of it, and she remembers 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:38.360 hearing William row and then she told police, I hear nothing. 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:43.680 I can't hear him. Why why can't I hear him? 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:48.400 And I walked around. It was just two meters three 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:50.920 meters away from where we were sitting, and I've just 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:53.400 walked out and I just see nothing. 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:59.360 And she goes around the corner of the house. I 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.400 don't know if she's on the funda or if she's 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:06.600 on the garden next to it, but she's moved around 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:08.800 the corner of the house so she can see down 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:12.160 the slope from the back of the property. 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.800 And I'm yelling out, William, where are you? You need 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:17.760 to talk to Mommy, tell me where you are. I 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.280 can't see you, I can't hear you. Where are you? 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.960 And she says she remembers standing there, just staring into space, 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:30.360 thinking why can't I hear him? Why can't I see him? 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:33.600 Why can't I see the red through the bushes down there? 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:35.880 So the red is the Spider Man suit that we 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.320 know he was wearing because it was in that photograph, 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.000 and she says, she goes back to her mum and 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:48.720 she says, he's not here. William's not here. Now this 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:50.880 is where we start to lose the timing. She tells 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:54.440 the police that the gap between the photograph being taken 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:56.679 to William and her going to look for William was 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:00.719 maybe five ten minutes. But she's quest on this at 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:04.480 different times by the police, and she's inconsistent on exactly 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.080 how long it was, and at one point the police 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:10.640 actually ask her. They say, sometimes five minutes doesn't always 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:14.840 feel like five minutes, which is fair, and. 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:15.560 She accepts that. 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:20.600 So let's say five minutes for playing the dice, for 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.760 William getting bored, for running off and back for playing 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:27.240 Daddy Tiger being told can you see Daddy's car, and 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:30.920 the foster mother realizing she can't hear him. So the 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:33.640 minimum estimate that she gives so five minutes. If the 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:36.200 photo was at nine thirty seven, it's now nine forty 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.520 two and on our timer. We've been six in a 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:46.160 bit minutes. But the police theory is that William went 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:48.960 around the other side of the house and fell off 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:52.040 the verandah here, and that at this point the foster 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:56.040 mother found William's body and these ferns and the foliage 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:59.720 around under the verandah, that he was dead, but she 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:02.640 makes a snap decision to hide his body. Now for 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:05.120 that to happen for the police theory to be right, 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:08.800 a lot has to happen very quickly. The foster mum 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:13.080 has to walk down here, find William's body and. 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.680 Reaction quietly enough that no one in the neighborhood hears. 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.040 It, or because we know it's a quiet street, you 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:19.560 can hear. 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:21.400 It's a quiet street, so. 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:26.320 There's no audible reaction that either her mum or William's 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:30.680 sister notice. She has to decide not to call for help, 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:33.280 So that's a very quick decision. There's no triple zero 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:35.920 call at that point. And she has to decide to 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:40.600 hide William's body rather than seeking any kind of medical attention. 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.280 And William's sister is also in the house, so she's four. 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.640 The foster mum has to decide whether to bring her 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:53.560 mum and William's sister into the conspiracy and get them 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:57.600 to lie with her about what's happened to William. 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:01.280 Or avoid them. Final yet that anything has happened. 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.800 So William's sister, who's four, is interviewed more than once 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.560 by specialist detectives and she gives the same version, which 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:15.040 is that William is playing Daddy Tiger. So if it 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.120 is a conspiracy, William's foster mother then has to pretend 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:20.400 to look for William herself. She has to convince her 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:24.000 own mother what happened. The foster mother later tells police 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.240 that she runs around this garden and the foster Mum's 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:29.960 calling out, I can't hear you. I need to see you. 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.520 I need to hear your voice because I can't see you. 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:41.360 I can't hear you. Where are you? And he was nowhere, and. 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:45.240 At some point, according to the police theory, she walked 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:54.040 up to the carport just here around the house, and 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:58.160 when she got there, she loaded William's body into her 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:05.440 mum's Gray MASD three. According to the police, so. 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:06.400 So far, we are. 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:13.720 Eleven minutes since the time when William is last known 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:23.120 to be alive. Okay, William's foster mother has always denied 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:27.640 any involvement in his disappearance, so at this point it's 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:32.359 worth stepping back and asking who are the police coming 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:37.439 up with this theory. William's disappearance is currently being investigated 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:42.200 by detectives from the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Team. 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:46.719 It's part of the bigger Homicide Squad and it exists 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.720 to go back to those old cases that weren't solved 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:53.440 the first time to see if anything was missed, if 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:57.920 any mistakes were made, or if new technology, particularly DNA, 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:02.280 could lead to a breakthrough. And these are serious cases, 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:08.280 possible murders, so the detectives working for Unsolved are expected 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:13.679 to be good, but their work is not perfect. In 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.280 twenty thirteen, the year before William went missing, New South 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:21.960 Wales Police discovered evidence relating to twenty two unsolved homicide 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:25.840 cases sitting in a basement. No one seemed to know 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:29.360 it was there. That led to the then senior officer 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:33.240 on the Unsolved Homicide Team to write a damning internal 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:39.080 report on just how much evidence was missing, scattered, misfiled 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:43.720 or lost. The report was confidential at the time. It's 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:48.480 marked through official use only. It said one search recovered 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:54.320 eight entire palettes of evidence that had been improperly stored. 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:58.760 Many of these items may relate to unsolved homicide cases. 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.200 Many of these poorly secured items included homicide victim's clothing, 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:10.000 post mortem and crime scene specimen swabs, meaning detectives today 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:14.320 didn't know what was missing and DNA analysis had not 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:15.480 been carried out. 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:27.240 One of the reasons to write this document was to 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:31.760 let command know what the issue was and the problems 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:34.200 was that we faced. 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:37.240 This is the former officer who wrote that report, giving 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:39.800 evidence that the same inquiry you heard at the start 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:41.280 of the episode. 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:45.000 All of the investigators in the office were aware of 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:52.760 the problems regarding retention and proper exhibit handling procedures. 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.320 That officer didn't get to see if those problems were 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:59.560 ever fixed. He ended up leaving the police for medical 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:04.119 reasons shortly after submitting his report. The current boss of 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.840 the New South Wales Police Homicide Squad told the inquiry 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:12.720 those problems still existed when he took over in twenty nineteen. 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:16.400 Yes, but we're talking about certain cases. We're not talking 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:17.800 about every case, but yes. 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:18.280 It was known. 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:25.440 Detective Superintendent Daniel Doherty is a stout stolid, gray bearded policeman. 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:30.359 He looks like a safe pair of hands. But when questioned, 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:35.280 he didn't know how many unsolved homicide cases were affected, 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:35.960 and was. 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:38.040 It well known that these problems may have existed in 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:40.200 relation to a large number of unsolved homicides. 0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:44.119 I wouldn't say large number. 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:47.119 Was it well known that these problems arose in a 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:50.080 number of cases, and nobody knew how many cases the 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:51.000 problems arise in. 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.480 I think that now, with the work of the unsol 0:20:54.520 --> 0:21:01.000 homicides to them, that would be a small number of cases. 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:04.040 What's the basis on which you tell the commissioner that 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:07.159 the number of cases that suffer from this problem is 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:11.280 a small number rather than an unknown number, or it 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:12.200 is an unknown number. 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.280 So there's an unknown number of cases where the unsolved 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:20.760 homicide team don't know what evidence they're missing, and that 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:25.359 was still the case last year. That's ten years after 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:29.240 that discovery of evidence relating to those twenty two unsolved 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:33.719 homicides in a police basement that first brought this issue 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:34.120 to light. 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:37.480 Are you aware of those problems having been addressed? 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.560 What's been an ongoing issue. I know that there's been 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:50.360 some reviews of some record services, and I know there's 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:54.440 reviews in writing to exhibits, and that's been an ongoing issue. 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:58.639 The problems were well known as problems within the Unsolved 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:00.919 Homicides team when you started in twenty nineteen. 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:02.639 Yes, well they brought to my. 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:05.160 Tench and it's well known that there's still problems within 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:06.760 the unsolved homicide. 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:09.840 Team in terms of those issues have been riseeous. 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:16.040 So the Unsolved Homicide Team is not perfect. There's problems 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:20.679 with record keeping, missing exhibits, and an inability to fix 0:22:20.760 --> 0:22:26.439 those problems over a whole decade. But that itself doesn't 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:30.560 mean that the investigation into William's disappearance has faced the 0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:35.119 same problems. Back to the police theory that William's foster 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:38.400 mother drove his body away from the house in her 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:40.120 mother's Gray Master three. 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:53.880 She described driving very slowly. 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:59.080 Yeah, William's foster mother doesn't mention this drive in her 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:02.399 initial statement to police on the day that William goes missing, 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:07.560 but she does describe it in a video walkthrough of 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:11.080 what happened the police recorded with her about six days later. 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:16.280 And there's been different reports about whether this drive was 0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:19.679 made before William's foster father came home or after but 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:24.720 if you look at William's foster father's witness statements, he 0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:28.280 doesn't mention the drive. So you've got to think it's 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:31.400 more likely that the foster mum makes this drive before 0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:32.280 he gets home. 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:35.240 So she drives down here. 0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:37.240 She describes, with her head out the window. 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:39.760 She's looking out the window, she's calling for Williams. And 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:45.320 yet so she's driven down and she turns right here 0:23:47.520 --> 0:23:50.520 now on the drive, Williams foster mum tells police that 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:54.000 on this road, so it's almost a single lane road, 0:23:54.280 --> 0:23:57.399 it's narrow, there's no road markings, there's trees on either side. 0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:01.360 She describes this semi trailer coming down really fast. 0:24:01.160 --> 0:24:03.600 And I pulled. He think he thought I pulled over 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:05.800 because he acknowledged me by saying thanks for pulling over. 0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:07.280 But I pulled over because I've just got my head 0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:09.800 out the window looking for William. Yeah, she said she 0:24:09.880 --> 0:24:12.520 wasn't pulled over, she was just just driving so slowly. 0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:17.720 Doing this driver, it does make sense to me that 0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:20.960 this is how you might look. You're covering a lot 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:21.960 of ground here, and. 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:25.320 You can imagine that if you are looking for a kid, 0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:27.200 You've got a thick bush on either side of the 0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:31.760 road you're desperately looking for you know that red or 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:34.119