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Speaker 1: Okay, I called David Laidlaw.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: David Laidlaw is the detective leading the investigation into William

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Speaker 3: Tihan's disappearance.

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Speaker 4: How would you take your oath for an information?

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Speaker 5: Cudney.

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Speaker 3: He's tall and heavy set, with white hair and a

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Speaker 3: thick white mustache.

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Speaker 2: And your occupation.

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Speaker 6: I'm a detective chief inspector and you're with the homicide squad.

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Speaker 3: That's correct, Thank you. David's what you might call a

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Speaker 3: veteran policeman.

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Speaker 7: You've been with the force since the late seventies.

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Speaker 3: That's correct, meaning he's been a cop for longer than

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Speaker 3: I have been alive.

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Speaker 7: And you've been a detective since nineteen eighty eight.

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Speaker 6: That's correct.

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Speaker 3: Train And he's been a detective investigating serious crimes since

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Speaker 3: I was in primary school and still getting pocket money.

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Speaker 7: And you joined the Unsolved Homicide Team in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 7: is that right?

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Speaker 6: That's correct.

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Speaker 3: His job today is as Investigation Coordinator of the New

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Speaker 3: South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Team, roughly forty detectives whose

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Speaker 3: job it is to go back over cases that others

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Speaker 3: couldn't solve and solve them. Every one of those cases

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Speaker 3: represents a grieving family who might have waited decades for

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Speaker 3: an answer. New South Wales Police has around eight hundred

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Speaker 3: unsolved cases on its books, although the numbers are a

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Speaker 3: bit uncertain.

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Speaker 7: And you say that as at the date of your statement,

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Speaker 7: there were eight hundred and twenty nine of those cases.

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Speaker 6: Yes, that's correct.

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Speaker 7: Yes, the figures provided by New South Wales Police as

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Speaker 7: at yesterday for that period is seven hundred and ninety.

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Speaker 6: Yes, I can assist.

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Speaker 7: Now, do you know what's happened to those files?

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Speaker 4: No? I don't know.

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Speaker 2: He should know.

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Speaker 3: That's why David's being questioned by this special Commission of

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Speaker 3: Inquiry held last year to investigate the police response to

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Speaker 3: specific hate crimes, because it's his job to oversee the

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Speaker 3: review of those unsolved cases. The way it works is

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Speaker 3: another cop takes a first look at the file, called

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Speaker 3: a triage. They then report to David, who decides if

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Speaker 3: the case will be formally reviewed. Only then can it

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Speaker 3: be reinvestigated. And all of this can take weeks or

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Speaker 3: months or years.

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Speaker 7: Two hundred and thirteen have not yet been triarched.

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Speaker 6: Now with their figures should be one hundred and twenty five.

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Speaker 6: I see, So.

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Speaker 3: That's one hundred and twenty five possible unsolved murders. The

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Speaker 3: Unsolved Homicide Team have never looked at.

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Speaker 7: Some of those cases, maybe decades off.

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Speaker 3: They could be is The Unsolved Homicide Team was established

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Speaker 3: back in two thousand and four, but the triage is

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Speaker 3: just the first stage of their work.

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Speaker 6: Now.

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Speaker 7: According to these figures, there are two hundred and ninety

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Speaker 7: one cases where it appears at least that no review

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Speaker 7: has been completed.

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Speaker 6: That's correct.

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Speaker 3: One hundred and twenty five cases plus two hundred and

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Speaker 3: ninety one cases equals quite a backlog. That's hundreds of

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Speaker 3: possible murders grieving families. David says, it's a resource issue.

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Speaker 6: You have to understand the resource implications. We don't have

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Speaker 6: enough people to do them. Mean enough people are made

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Speaker 6: by people who are qualified.

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Speaker 3: At this point, the head of the inquiry interrupts him.

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Speaker 4: Out of more resource has been requested.

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Speaker 3: No, so David hasn't asked for any help.

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Speaker 6: That's correct. But I know there's nineteen three hours ready

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Speaker 6: for me to vid. I haven't had the opportunity to

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Speaker 6: vid yet for how long since? Since I'd say since June,

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Speaker 6: I would say.

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Speaker 7: Last year, so that there was nineteen where somebody has

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Speaker 7: completed a review and sent it to you to assist,

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Speaker 7: I've been sitting on your desk.

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Speaker 6: For over twelve months, that's correct.

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Speaker 7: Yes, when do you expect to get to them?

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Just to stress, that's nineteen families waiting maybe decades for

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Speaker 3: an answer to what happened, not knowing the file detailing

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Speaker 3: their loved ones possible murder has been triaged by a detective,

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Speaker 3: then sat unopened on David's desk for the past year.

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Speaker 4: And have you drawn this to the Commissioner's attention that

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Speaker 4: you need more resources one way or the other?

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Speaker 6: No, I haven't, sir.

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Speaker 4: Why not if the work is that important or does

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Speaker 4: it not require urgent attention?

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Speaker 6: It does require a little.

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Speaker 4: Well, then why hasn't somebody said something to the commissioner

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Speaker 4: instead of sitting quietly leaving files collecting dust on the desk.

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Speaker 6: If I can reiterate what I said before, is that

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Speaker 6: we're going from a backlog of we've still got treo

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Speaker 6: as forms that have been completed that we cannot get

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Speaker 6: out of even the review because there's so many of them.

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Speaker 4: Do I work on the basis that the present Commissioner

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Speaker 4: is entirely unaware of the resources issues that you currently face.

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Speaker 4: Is that right?

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Speaker 6: That's correct?

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Speaker 4: So well, it is remarkable form assosa, Yes, that's true.

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Speaker 3: The inquiry's final report set it is difficult to see

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Speaker 3: how these resource issues could provide a justification for Detective

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Speaker 3: Chief Inspector laid Law to fail to perform his own

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Speaker 3: function in relation to these nineteen cases. David said part

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Speaker 3: of the reason was he was busy investigating the disappearance

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Speaker 3: of William Tyrol. He's still investigating William's disappearance. I'm Dan

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Speaker 3: box and from news dot com dot Au. This is

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Speaker 3: Witness William tyrrel Episode four. The police theory. Those nineteen

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Speaker 3: files David laid Law's not had time to open, and

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Speaker 3: the nineteen grieving families they represent, I can't help but

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Speaker 3: see them as part of the fallout from the investigation

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Speaker 3: into William's disappearance. And there are others like William's biological family,

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Speaker 3: where his grandmother says she lost her son over the

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Speaker 3: past ten years when they haven't had any answers and

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Speaker 3: she lost herself as well. David is still working to

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Speaker 3: solve the case, though, and the police have now set

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Speaker 3: their sights on William's foster mother.

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Speaker 6: Where are we.

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Speaker 2: This is the house where William went missing.

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Speaker 3: So Nina, who's the producer on this podcast, and I

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Speaker 3: have come to the house where William was reported missing

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Speaker 3: to try walking through the police's theory of what happened

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Speaker 3: to him. So this is what the police now think

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Speaker 3: happened to William, and we've pieced this together from the

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Speaker 3: cross examination of their new suspects in the New South

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Speaker 3: Wales Crime Commission and the cross examination of one of

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Speaker 3: the detectives investigating William's disappearance in court. In court, that

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Speaker 3: detective confirmed that this is one of their theories and

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Speaker 3: he said the police believe they know where William's body

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Speaker 3: was disposed of, and that he's formed the view that

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Speaker 3: William's foster mother knows where William Tool is. The house

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Speaker 3: where William was reported missing is a big, two story

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Speaker 3: building at the top of a dead end road called

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Speaker 3: Bennerum Drive. The neighbour's houses are all set back from

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Speaker 3: the road and each house is surrounded by a wide garden.

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Speaker 3: It looks like a nice place to live, blue sky,

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Speaker 3: green grass, the quiet, but behind the houses on either

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Speaker 3: side is forest. The last known photograph of William Tool

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Speaker 3: was taken at nine thirty seven on the morning he

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Speaker 3: went missing, and he's wearing his Spider Man suit on

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Speaker 3: this verandah of the house. The photo is taken by

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Speaker 3: his foster mother, and you can see William's happy. His

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Speaker 3: mouth is open like he's laughing or he's excited or

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Speaker 3: he's roaring. And we know the foster mother's there because

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Speaker 3: she took the photograph, and we know that her mum

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Speaker 3: is there, but the foster father, her husband, he's left

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Speaker 3: the home earlier that morning. He's gone to make a

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Speaker 3: work call. He needs internet reception to do that.

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Speaker 8: And just to say, we do have a point in

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Speaker 8: time for when he left because there was CCTV, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So all of that's been confirmed, but the uncertainty

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Speaker 3: is over the time of the photographic could be out

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Speaker 3: by two hours, so that would make it seven thirty seven,

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Speaker 3: not nine thirty seven. The foster mum told police when

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Speaker 3: she was asked about this, that she didn't know how

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Speaker 3: to set the camera. But the police and later the

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Speaker 3: inquest have looked at this. There's been forensic examination and

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Speaker 3: both accept that nine thirty seven is accurate.

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Speaker 9: And I look at that picture and I just think.

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Speaker 1: Minutes, minutes and our world has changed.

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Speaker 3: This is William's foster mother from an interview with both

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Speaker 3: foster parents recorded by New South Wales police months after

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Speaker 3: he was reported missing. So Evan, let's start the timer

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Speaker 3: now after the photograph's taken. The foster mother tells police

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Speaker 3: that William Tirell did more drawing on the verandah, and

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Speaker 3: she remembers playing with dice with him. She was teaching

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Speaker 3: the kids how to count, and William's sister came over

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Speaker 3: and she wanted to join in, and William withdrew.

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Speaker 2: So that's all his foster mum's account.

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Speaker 3: She's told police that William then got bored and he

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Speaker 3: tried different activities, including a game that they called Daddy Tiger.

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Speaker 2: So William was roaring at the grown ups.

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Speaker 3: But the foster mother tells police that at some point

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Speaker 3: William Tirell jumped down off the deck on his own.

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Speaker 8: He's got a really good sense of adventure, but he's

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Speaker 8: got a really good understanding of his limitations.

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Speaker 1: He's not not a wanderer, not a child to run away.

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Speaker 8: Always had us in earshot or eyesight.

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Speaker 2: She says.

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Speaker 3: She told him to put his shoes on, but he's

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Speaker 3: barefoot in the photograph. But the thing is, there's been

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Speaker 3: a whole bunch of controversy about this photo. There's been

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Speaker 3: headlines in the newspaper about did he have shoes on?

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Speaker 2: Didn't he have shoes on? And does that mean somebody

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Speaker 2: is lying.

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Speaker 3: The foster mother says she told him to put his

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Speaker 3: shoes on because there might be bindi's in the grass.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, so that's that was the argument that was made,

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Speaker 8: that there weren't bedis.

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Speaker 3: There was a whole bunch of controversy online in the

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Speaker 3: newspapers about whether or not.

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Speaker 2: It was bindy season.

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Speaker 8: We're at the house and there's a bindi and it's

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Speaker 8: that time of year.

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Speaker 3: So look the long and the short of that is.

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Speaker 3: I think it's all irrelevant. William could put his own

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Speaker 3: shoes on, and his shoes.

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Speaker 2: Had velcro straps, so.

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Speaker 3: Whatever the foster mother said, he could have put shoes on.

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Speaker 3: At the time, William is said by his foster mother

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Speaker 3: to have jumped down off this verandah and run off

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Speaker 3: around the corner of the house. He's running up and

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Speaker 3: roaring and running away, and she says she asked William,

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Speaker 3: can you see Daddy's car? Because his foster father was

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Speaker 3: due to come back at any moment.

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Speaker 1: He's not a kid that would just run into something.

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Speaker 8: He would stop and think, he would consider what he

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Speaker 8: would do before he would do anything else.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, and sid stay within within distance, knowing how

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Speaker 5: far away he was from.

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Speaker 3: Us, and the foster mum remembers that her tea was hot,

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Speaker 3: and she remembers drinking some of it, and she remembers

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Speaker 3: hearing William row and then she told police, I hear nothing.

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Speaker 6: I can't hear him. Why why can't I hear him?

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Speaker 8: And I walked around. It was just two meters three

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Speaker 8: meters away from where we were sitting, and I've just

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Speaker 8: walked out and I just see nothing.

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Speaker 3: And she goes around the corner of the house. I

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Speaker 3: don't know if she's on the funda or if she's

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Speaker 3: on the garden next to it, but she's moved around

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Speaker 3: the corner of the house so she can see down

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Speaker 3: the slope from the back of the property.

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Speaker 1: And I'm yelling out, William, where are you? You need

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Speaker 1: to talk to Mommy, tell me where you are. I

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Speaker 1: can't see you, I can't hear you. Where are you?

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Speaker 3: And she says she remembers standing there, just staring into space,

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Speaker 3: thinking why can't I hear him? Why can't I see him?

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Speaker 3: Why can't I see the red through the bushes down there?

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Speaker 3: So the red is the Spider Man suit that we

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Speaker 3: know he was wearing because it was in that photograph,

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Speaker 3: and she says, she goes back to her mum and

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Speaker 3: she says, he's not here. William's not here. Now this

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Speaker 3: is where we start to lose the timing. She tells

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Speaker 3: the police that the gap between the photograph being taken

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Speaker 3: to William and her going to look for William was

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Speaker 3: maybe five ten minutes. But she's quest on this at

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Speaker 3: different times by the police, and she's inconsistent on exactly

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Speaker 3: how long it was, and at one point the police

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Speaker 3: actually ask her. They say, sometimes five minutes doesn't always

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Speaker 3: feel like five minutes, which is fair, and.

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Speaker 2: She accepts that.

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Speaker 3: So let's say five minutes for playing the dice, for

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Speaker 3: William getting bored, for running off and back for playing

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Speaker 3: Daddy Tiger being told can you see Daddy's car, and

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Speaker 3: the foster mother realizing she can't hear him. So the

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Speaker 3: minimum estimate that she gives so five minutes. If the

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Speaker 3: photo was at nine thirty seven, it's now nine forty

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Speaker 3: two and on our timer. We've been six in a

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Speaker 3: bit minutes. But the police theory is that William went

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Speaker 3: around the other side of the house and fell off

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Speaker 3: the verandah here, and that at this point the foster

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Speaker 3: mother found William's body and these ferns and the foliage

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Speaker 3: around under the verandah, that he was dead, but she

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Speaker 3: makes a snap decision to hide his body. Now for

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Speaker 3: that to happen for the police theory to be right,

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Speaker 3: a lot has to happen very quickly. The foster mum

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Speaker 3: has to walk down here, find William's body and.

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Speaker 8: Reaction quietly enough that no one in the neighborhood hears.

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Speaker 3: It, or because we know it's a quiet street, you

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Speaker 3: can hear.

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Speaker 2: It's a quiet street, so.

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Speaker 3: There's no audible reaction that either her mum or William's

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Speaker 3: sister notice. She has to decide not to call for help,

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Speaker 3: So that's a very quick decision. There's no triple zero

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Speaker 3: call at that point. And she has to decide to

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Speaker 3: hide William's body rather than seeking any kind of medical attention.

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Speaker 3: And William's sister is also in the house, so she's four.

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Speaker 3: The foster mum has to decide whether to bring her

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Speaker 3: mum and William's sister into the conspiracy and get them

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Speaker 3: to lie with her about what's happened to William.

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Speaker 8: Or avoid them. Final yet that anything has happened.

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Speaker 3: So William's sister, who's four, is interviewed more than once

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Speaker 3: by specialist detectives and she gives the same version, which

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Speaker 3: is that William is playing Daddy Tiger. So if it

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Speaker 3: is a conspiracy, William's foster mother then has to pretend

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Speaker 3: to look for William herself. She has to convince her

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Speaker 3: own mother what happened. The foster mother later tells police

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Speaker 3: that she runs around this garden and the foster Mum's

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Speaker 3: calling out, I can't hear you. I need to see you.

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Speaker 3: I need to hear your voice because I can't see you.

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Speaker 1: I can't hear you. Where are you? And he was nowhere, and.

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Speaker 3: At some point, according to the police theory, she walked

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Speaker 3: up to the carport just here around the house, and

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Speaker 3: when she got there, she loaded William's body into her

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Speaker 3: mum's Gray MASD three. According to the police, so.

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Speaker 2: So far, we are.

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Speaker 3: Eleven minutes since the time when William is last known

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Speaker 3: to be alive. Okay, William's foster mother has always denied

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Speaker 3: any involvement in his disappearance, so at this point it's

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Speaker 3: worth stepping back and asking who are the police coming

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Speaker 3: up with this theory. William's disappearance is currently being investigated

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Speaker 3: by detectives from the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Team.

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Speaker 3: It's part of the bigger Homicide Squad and it exists

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Speaker 3: to go back to those old cases that weren't solved

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Speaker 3: the first time to see if anything was missed, if

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Speaker 3: any mistakes were made, or if new technology, particularly DNA,

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Speaker 3: could lead to a breakthrough. And these are serious cases,

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Speaker 3: possible murders, so the detectives working for Unsolved are expected

301
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Speaker 3: to be good, but their work is not perfect. In

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Speaker 3: twenty thirteen, the year before William went missing, New South

303
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Speaker 3: Wales Police discovered evidence relating to twenty two unsolved homicide

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Speaker 3: cases sitting in a basement. No one seemed to know

305
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Speaker 3: it was there. That led to the then senior officer

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Speaker 3: on the Unsolved Homicide Team to write a damning internal

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Speaker 3: report on just how much evidence was missing, scattered, misfiled

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Speaker 3: or lost. The report was confidential at the time. It's

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Speaker 3: marked through official use only. It said one search recovered

310
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Speaker 3: eight entire palettes of evidence that had been improperly stored.

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Speaker 3: Many of these items may relate to unsolved homicide cases.

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Speaker 3: Many of these poorly secured items included homicide victim's clothing,

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Speaker 3: post mortem and crime scene specimen swabs, meaning detectives today

314
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Speaker 3: didn't know what was missing and DNA analysis had not

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Speaker 3: been carried out.

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Speaker 10: One of the reasons to write this document was to

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Speaker 10: let command know what the issue was and the problems

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Speaker 10: was that we faced.

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Speaker 3: This is the former officer who wrote that report, giving

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Speaker 3: evidence that the same inquiry you heard at the start

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Speaker 3: of the episode.

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Speaker 10: All of the investigators in the office were aware of

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Speaker 10: the problems regarding retention and proper exhibit handling procedures.

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Speaker 3: That officer didn't get to see if those problems were

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Speaker 3: ever fixed. He ended up leaving the police for medical

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Speaker 3: reasons shortly after submitting his report. The current boss of

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Speaker 3: the New South Wales Police Homicide Squad told the inquiry

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Speaker 3: those problems still existed when he took over in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 9: Yes, but we're talking about certain cases. We're not talking

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Speaker 9: about every case, but yes.

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Speaker 4: It was known.

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Speaker 3: Detective Superintendent Daniel Doherty is a stout stolid, gray bearded policeman.

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Speaker 3: He looks like a safe pair of hands. But when questioned,

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Speaker 3: he didn't know how many unsolved homicide cases were affected,

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Speaker 3: and was.

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Speaker 7: It well known that these problems may have existed in

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Speaker 7: relation to a large number of unsolved homicides.

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Speaker 9: I wouldn't say large number.

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Speaker 7: Was it well known that these problems arose in a

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Speaker 7: number of cases, and nobody knew how many cases the

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Speaker 7: problems arise in.

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Speaker 9: I think that now, with the work of the unsol

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Speaker 9: homicides to them, that would be a small number of cases.

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Speaker 7: What's the basis on which you tell the commissioner that

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Speaker 7: the number of cases that suffer from this problem is

346
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Speaker 7: a small number rather than an unknown number, or it

347
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Speaker 7: is an unknown number.

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Speaker 3: So there's an unknown number of cases where the unsolved

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Speaker 3: homicide team don't know what evidence they're missing, and that

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Speaker 3: was still the case last year. That's ten years after

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Speaker 3: that discovery of evidence relating to those twenty two unsolved

352
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Speaker 3: homicides in a police basement that first brought this issue

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Speaker 3: to light.

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Speaker 7: Are you aware of those problems having been addressed?

355
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Speaker 9: What's been an ongoing issue. I know that there's been

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Speaker 9: some reviews of some record services, and I know there's

357
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Speaker 9: reviews in writing to exhibits, and that's been an ongoing issue.

358
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Speaker 7: The problems were well known as problems within the Unsolved

359
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Speaker 7: Homicides team when you started in twenty nineteen.

360
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Speaker 9: Yes, well they brought to my.

361
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,160
Speaker 7: Tench and it's well known that there's still problems within

362
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Speaker 7: the unsolved homicide.

363
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 9: Team in terms of those issues have been riseeous.

364
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Speaker 3: So the Unsolved Homicide Team is not perfect. There's problems

365
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Speaker 3: with record keeping, missing exhibits, and an inability to fix

366
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 3: those problems over a whole decade. But that itself doesn't

367
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Speaker 3: mean that the investigation into William's disappearance has faced the

368
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 3: same problems. Back to the police theory that William's foster

369
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Speaker 3: mother drove his body away from the house in her

370
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,120
Speaker 3: mother's Gray Master three.

371
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Speaker 8: She described driving very slowly.

372
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Speaker 3: Yeah, William's foster mother doesn't mention this drive in her

373
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 3: initial statement to police on the day that William goes missing,

374
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Speaker 3: but she does describe it in a video walkthrough of

375
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Speaker 3: what happened the police recorded with her about six days later.

376
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Speaker 3: And there's been different reports about whether this drive was

377
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 3: made before William's foster father came home or after but

378
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 3: if you look at William's foster father's witness statements, he

379
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 3: doesn't mention the drive. So you've got to think it's

380
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Speaker 3: more likely that the foster mum makes this drive before

381
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Speaker 3: he gets home.

382
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Speaker 2: So she drives down here.

383
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Speaker 8: She describes, with her head out the window.

384
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Speaker 3: She's looking out the window, she's calling for Williams. And

385
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 3: yet so she's driven down and she turns right here

386
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 3: now on the drive, Williams foster mum tells police that

387
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 3: on this road, so it's almost a single lane road,

388
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 3: it's narrow, there's no road markings, there's trees on either side.

389
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Speaker 3: She describes this semi trailer coming down really fast.

390
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 8: And I pulled. He think he thought I pulled over

391
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 8: because he acknowledged me by saying thanks for pulling over.

392
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 8: But I pulled over because I've just got my head

393
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 8: out the window looking for William. Yeah, she said she

394
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 8: wasn't pulled over, she was just just driving so slowly.

395
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 8: Doing this driver, it does make sense to me that

396
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 8: this is how you might look. You're covering a lot

397
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 8: of ground here, and.

398
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Speaker 3: You can imagine that if you are looking for a kid,

399
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 3: You've got a thick bush on either side of the

400
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 3: road you're desperately looking for you know that red or

401
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,119
Speaker 3: that blue of the Spider Man's suit. You're shouting his

402
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 3: name as you go, and it's a paniced response like

403
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 3: this isn't a You know, you're not in your rational

404
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 3: mind if you're looking for a kid, But equally you're

405
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 3: not in your rational mind if you're trying to cover

406
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 3: something up. But she gets here, and according to the

407
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 3: foster mother, she stops and I.

408
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 8: Get to the riding school and I just think it's

409
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 8: my here.

410
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 3: So this is the corner of Batar Creek Road and

411
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 3: this dirt track that's called Cobb and Co.

412
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 5: Road.

413
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 8: So this is where the place are alleging the body

414
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 8: could have been left. They've specifically called.

415
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 3: Out this specifically in court. They have suggested the body

416
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 3: of William Tirell was left here. But if you get out,

417
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 3: I don't look.

418
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 8: Very open.

419
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: It is very open, isn't it.

420
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 3: So just testing the police theory if you were trying

421
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 3: to hide a body. When you get here, there are

422
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 3: riding school. So there's several buildings maybe one hundred meters

423
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 3: away overlooking where we are now. There's another house on

424
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 3: the other side of the road. A second houset there

425
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 3: and a third one there, all within eyeshot. When if

426
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 3: you hadn't turned right at the bottom of Benner and

427
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 3: Drive and you'd turn the left, or if you'd continue

428
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 3: down this road another few hundred meters, you'd just be

429
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 3: in forest on either side. There would be no houses

430
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 3: looking at you. So this spot here is probably the

431
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 3: worst place to try and hide anything if you wanted

432
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 3: to commit a criminal act.

433
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 8: If we're working on the theory that this driver goes

434
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 8: before the husband.

435
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: Comes home, which seems most likely.

436
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 8: It does seem most likely if we're working on that theory,

437
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 8: we don't have much time to bury a boy.

438
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 3: And also, to be blunt, burying a body's quite hard work,

439
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 3: and there's no suggestion that there's any digging tools in

440
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 3: the car, So the best you're going to do at

441
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 3: this point, if you are hiding a child's body, the

442
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 3: best you're going to do is carry it. Also, she's panicking,

443
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 3: and maybe panicking explains why you'd pick this spot, which

444
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 3: is in sight of several houses. But if you had

445
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 3: stopped here and you tried to hide something, you could

446
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 3: walk what's that fifty meters and leave the body behind

447
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 3: one of these piles of leaves and sticks. But it's

448
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 3: not going to be very well hidden. So if you

449
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 3: wanted to hide it properly, and I know this is.

450
00:27:49,280 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 8: Morehag fuck, so it's get some it gets very unworkable

451
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 8: very quickly.

452
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you wanted to hide something as obvious as

453
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 3: a child's body in a bright red out in a

454
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 3: bright red outfit, you have to go another ten meters

455
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 3: maybe into the bush, and that's.

456
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 2: Hard walking and you're carrying a body.

457
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 3: You're carrying something that's heavy. So but maybe you do it.

458
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 3: It's not impossible.

459
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 2: But either way.

460
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 8: You notice that.

461
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll show you what this is. Actually, this rake

462
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 3: is a memorial left by the police when they did

463
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 3: the big forensic search and just a few years ago,

464
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 3: and it.

465
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 2: Did have this message on it, we will never to

466
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: get home.

467
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 3: It's hard to read now and there's a date, but

468
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 3: it's Warrior left by police who when they came down here,

469
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 3: did search this area. They ripped the bush apart, they

470
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 3: dug up tons of soil. They were using tools like

471
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 3: this to just scrape through everything. And if they found anything,

472
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 3: they've never made it public. And the detectives are Adama

473
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 3: when questioned in court about this location. So one of

474
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 3: the detectives on the strike force says that the police

475
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 3: do believe William's body was disposed in this area on

476
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 3: the corner of those two roads. And he's asked in

477
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 3: court if he's lying about whether the police know the location,

478
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 3: and he says he's not, and then he says, I

479
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 3: formed the view that the foster mother knows where will

480
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 3: Interil is, which does lead you to the question, well,

481
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 3: if you believe that, then why have you not been

482
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 3: able to find him?

483
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: But we don't know.

484
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 3: So the faster mon then drives back into Benerine Drive. Okay,

485
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 3: so she says, she drives up here, she says, she

486
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 3: tells police, she brings the car back up, and she

487
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 3: just runs out and she looks for him again and

488
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 3: she's running around. How long have we been.

489
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 2: We've been twenty six minutes.

490
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 3: So if William was last seen at nine thirty seven,

491
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 3: that's about ten o'clock now.

492
00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, but you're discounting their old time player.

493
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 3: All of yeah, you're having a cup of tea. We

494
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 3: know that at about ten point thirty, Williams foster father

495
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 3: sends a text to his foster mother saying I'll be

496
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 3: home in five yea and he is home, and he

497
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 3: is home within five minutes. But the foster mother deletes

498
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,239
Speaker 3: that message. So at the time when she's on her

499
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 3: evidence running around looking for William, she deletes the message

500
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 3: from William's foster father. Now she tells police that that's habit.

501
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 3: She just deletes messages as they come in. And it

502
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 3: is true that other messages on her phone are deleted.

503
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 3: And there's a part of me that gets that. I

504
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 3: delete emails as quickly as I can. And she is

505
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 3: from personal Experience office. She's a really organized, a really

506
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 3: efficient person. Does it mean anything that she deleted that message.

507
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 3: If the police theory is right and she's at this

508
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 3: point involved in a conspiracy to dispose of William's body,

509
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 3: what does she gain by deleting that message?

510
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 8: Hard to tell And I think also hard to read

511
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 8: too much into the actions of someone under extreme stress.

512
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 3: Either way, Yeah, because on the police theory, she has

513
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 3: to decide in that moment whether or not to bring

514
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 3: him into the conspiracy. Either if the police are right

515
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 3: and she is trying to hide the fact of William's death,

516
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 3: she has to decide very very quickly whether she is

517
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 3: going to lie to him that William has just disappeared,

518
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 3: or tell him the truth and convince him very quickly

519
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 3: to lie with her. The husband gets home about ten

520
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 3: point thirty three or soon after he arrives home where

521
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 3: we are now, and he pulls into this driveway here,

522
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 3: and the foster mother walks towards him from the veranda area,

523
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 3: so that side of that house there, and she asks him,

524
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 3: have you seen William? And the foster father's response, on

525
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 3: his evidence and her evidence, is that he says, what

526
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 3: are you talking about? Why would I have William? The

527
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 3: foster mother tells her husband that William's missing, and he

528
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 3: takes off.

529
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 5: I then said, where is he?

530
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 6: Where?

531
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 2: Where?

532
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 5: Where's he going? She said he was he was here

533
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 5: at five minutes ago here, five minutes ago, yep.

534
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: I can't find him.

535
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 5: I was calling his name, William, Carl, William.

536
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 2: Where are you? She said that he was.

537
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 5: He was last saying around here, yep. But I thought, okay, well,

538
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 5: you know, if he was down the road, you possibly

539
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 5: would have seen him.

540
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: You've checked that dollhouse over there, and.

541
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,719
Speaker 5: Then absolutely went through there, went through there, went unnath

542
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 5: their house, went around their house, went in there because

543
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 5: they went home. I went in there in there carport.

544
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 3: So he's running all around there, and then he's running

545
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 3: in wider and wider circles up and down the street here,

546
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 3: and he says he kept coming back to the house

547
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 3: to check for any updates.

548
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 2: So has William come back?

549
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, they've got a caravan in there.

550
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: It's all locked away.

551
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 5: I went in there.

552
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: I checked on and was locked.

553
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: Caravan was locked, yeah.

554
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 5: Absolutely, And I was looking in everything I possibly could.

555
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 5: I then couldn't find him. I then found there's a

556
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 5: walking trial or a trail that leads to the cemetery.

557
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 5: I followed that. You know, I was still looking for

558
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 5: things on the ground, if there's something, you know, I've

559
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 5: lost a shoe or something like that.

560
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 1: You were yelling all this all.

561
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 5: The time, all time, yelling for him all the time.

562
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 3: I remember when I've lost, even for a moment, one

563
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 3: of our kids, it's like the whole world is shaking.

564
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 3: It's that much emotion, it's that much adrenaline and panic.

565
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 3: So I can imagine him running literally up and down

566
00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 3: this street looking for William. But then about ten four,

567
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 3: so just over an hour after that photograph was taken

568
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 3: the Foster month, she runs down the road here to

569
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 3: a neighbour's house, asking if the neighbor has seen a

570
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 3: little boy in a Spider Man outfit. But the significance

571
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 3: of that is, from that moment on, the foster mother

572
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,399
Speaker 3: is with someone from outside her family, someone who has

573
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 3: no reason to lie to protect her. So we know

574
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 3: that from that moment on, she's not hiding a body. Yeah, So,

575
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 3: having walked it through, what do you think about the

576
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 3: police theory?

577
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's doable, it is doable, it's.

578
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 2: Tied, it's doable.

579
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 3: But I don't think it makes a lot of sense.

580
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 3: And the thing that got me was driving down to

581
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 3: the corner of those two roads that the police say

582
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 3: they believe William's foster mother hid his body. You're right

583
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 3: in front of the ride school. You're in view with one,

584
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 3: two three other houses. When if you wanted to hide

585
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 3: something and you'd driven another two hundred meters, there'd be nothing.

586
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 3: They'd just be forest. So why pick that point?

587
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 8: But it's entirely possible that we're looking at a puzzle

588
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 8: that's missing a lot of pieces, and that the place

589
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:21,919
Speaker 8: could have pieces.

590
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 3: But if they have pieces, why haven't they done anything

591
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:38,439
Speaker 3: about it? Why has she not been charged. The one

592
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 3: person who does know what other puzzle pieces the police

593
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 3: hold is the man leading the investigation, Detective Chief Inspector

594
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 3: David Laidlaw. He took over more than five years ago,

595
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 3: so back in twenty nineteen, which was months after the

596
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 3: public announcement of a separate plan to overhaul the way

597
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 3: the Unsolved Homicide Team deals with its backlog of cold cases.

598
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 3: It was announced in an exclusive story in Sydney's Daily

599
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 3: Telegraph newspaper that promised that every murder mystery to have

600
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 3: baffled New South Wales police in the past forty years

601
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 3: will be revisited in one of the biggest ever shakeups

602
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 3: of cold case homicides in the state. The paper said

603
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 3: that cases that could be solved would be prioritized and

604
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 3: another internal police report also marked for official use only,

605
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 3: so the officer in charge of the process would be

606
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 3: David Laidlaw.

607
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 6: There was a time frame given of three months for

608
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 6: the review to be undertaken. However, we identified that some

609
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 6: matters have been out there for three years.

610
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 7: And in the last five years since the twenty eighteen

611
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 7: system was introduced, there are still one hundred and twenty

612
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 7: five that have not been triarged into on hundred and

613
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 7: ninety one that have not been reviewed, and that number

614
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 7: of cases that have been neither triaged nor reviewed. They

615
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 7: may include cases from the seventies and eighties, the cold Yes,

616
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 7: And at the moment, is this the case? The review

617
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 7: committee receives five to ten reviews every three.

618
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 6: To six months approximately years.

619
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 7: So that's fewer than twenty in a year.

620
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: Is that right?

621
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 7: So of the four hundred and forty two undetected cases,

622
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 7: it'll take twenty two years to review all of them

623
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 7: on that average.

624
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 6: Yes, it could do.

625
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 7: When you joined the Unsolved Homicide Team in twenty seventeen,

626
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 7: were you already aware of difficulties in locating exhibits that

627
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 7: were appreciated within that team? Was that notorious within the

628
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,280
Speaker 7: unsold Homicide Team?

629
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 6: It's a rather strong word notorious. I would say it was.

630
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 3: Known, well known.

631
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:07,240
Speaker 2: Yes.

632
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 6: Therefore, the reconciliation plan was to get all exhibits for

633
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 6: forensic analysis to be back into one place, which is

634
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 6: the Metropolitan Exhibited and Property Center.

635
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 7: And that project was underway, was it when you joined

636
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 7: the team?

637
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 4: Yes?

638
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 7: And have that project been completed?

639
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 6: I'm unable to tell the commissioner.

640
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 7: That have you received written updates as to the progress

641
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 7: of that project. If you haven't received any written update

642
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 7: as to the progress of that project since you commenced,

643
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 7: that's correct.

644
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 4: Yes, either person who would be expected to receive the updates, Yes, sir?

645
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 4: Have you asked for them? No, sir, why not?

646
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 6: I can't give the commissioner a reason why not.

647
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 3: The second voice, the one who's just started asking questions,

648
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 3: is the inquiry's head, a Supreme Court judge.

649
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 4: These are all people's lives and people's families lives.

650
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 6: I appreciate that, and.

651
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 4: As anyone, as far as you know, ever put to

652
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 4: the Commissioner that some specially founded project is urgently needed

653
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 4: to get a grip on all of these unsolved cases.

654
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 3: David says he does know requests for missing exhibits from

655
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 3: unsolved cases were sent out to different parts of the

656
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 3: police force. That happened in twenty seventeen, so seven years ago.

657
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 2: Now where are the replies kept?

658
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 6: I don't know. I can find I would burn what

659
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,399
Speaker 6: we call our record management system.

660
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 7: Is there someone responsible for collating the replies and reviewing them?

661
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 6: Well, I suppose responsibility now at rest.

662
00:40:53,080 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 7: With me, But you haven't conducted that exercise now have

663
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 7: you taken any steps towards reviewing the responses that have

664
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 7: been received?

665
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 6: No, I haven't.

666
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 7: The physical exhibits are, of course critically important to unsolved homicides.

667
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 6: Of course, yes, thank you m Seku for a I'll

668
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 6: a journal team.

669
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 2: Thank you.

670
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 3: To be honest, I struggle to get my head around

671
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 3: what David's saying. Unsolved homicides are real people, real grieving families.

672
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 3: But New South Wales Police is missing exhibits, missing documents

673
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 3: by the palette load, and the detective in charge of

674
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 3: going back through all these cases says he doesn't know

675
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 3: basic things like where they keep replies to requests for information,

676
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 3: or what's in those replies, or how big the problem

677
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 3: really is. I get David Laidlaw's busy, among other things.

678
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 3: He's running the investigation into William's disappearance, But the record

679
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 3: of the New South Wales Police isn't actually perfect there too.

680
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 3: If the current police theory of what happened is William's

681
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 3: foster mother drove his body away in her mum's gray

682
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 3: mas to three, then surely it's a problem.

683
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 2: The police at.

684
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 3: The time didn't examine that car until the twentieth of

685
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:24,720
Speaker 3: September twenty fourteen, five days after William was reported missing.

686
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 3: I'd like to ask David about all of this, but

687
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 3: I've been told no. Instead, New South Wales Police have

688
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 3: given us a short written statement saying police are quote

689
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 3: unable to provide comment or interviews as the matter is

690
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 3: before the coroner, meaning the inquest into William's disappearance, which

691
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 3: is due to start again next week.

692
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 1: So if anyone out there is thinking I might have

693
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 1: gotten away with this, what's your message?

694
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 3: They haven't, though that didn't stop David giving this interview

695
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 3: to Sky News in twenty twenty one, when the inquest

696
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 3: was also ongoing.

697
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 6: We will continue with this investigation as long as it takes.

698
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 1: Do you believe you know who the person is?

699
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 6: We believe we can identify who it may be or

700
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 6: some of the circumstances of him going missing.

701
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: Yes, you know what happened, don't you? You know who

702
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: it is?

703
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 6: We have thoughts about what occurred to William, Yes, is

704
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 6: and there's a range of thoughts of what happened to him.

705
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: Yes, and who was responsible?

706
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 2: Yes.

707
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 3: We started this episode talking about the lives that have

708
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 3: been damaged so far by the police investigation. The families

709
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 3: of those nineteen cases where reports have sat on David

710
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 3: Laidlaw's desk for a year unopened. Right now, other lives

711
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 3: are at risk of harm. Also because today only one

712
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 3: of two things can be right. Either the police theory

713
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 3: is correct and William's foster mother disposed of his body

714
00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 3: and has deceived everyone over the past ten years when

715
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:04,600
Speaker 3: she's been publicly campaigning for more attention, not less, on

716
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 3: this case. Or the police are wrong and William's foster

717
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 3: mother has been wrongly and tragically described as a suspected

718
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 3: criminal in front of her friends and family and the

719
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 3: entire country. That's the reality of unsolved homicide investigations.

720
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 2: The stakes are very, very.

721
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 3: High, and which of those two theories has evidence to

722
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 3: support It might become clear next week when the inquest

723
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 3: into William's disappearance resumes its public hearings, and we will

724
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 3: be there reporting on what happens in the next episode.

725
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,240
Speaker 3: Because one thing walking through the police theory with Nina

726
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 3: has made obvious to me is you don't know what

727
00:44:51,160 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 3: you don't know? What do you feel about the foster parents.

728
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 8: Now in that timeline. For the police theory to be true,

729
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 8: you'd have to be a psychopath to be able to

730
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 8: react that quickly.

731
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 3: Because at the very least you are seeing a child's body,

732
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 3: deciding not to seek help, picking that child's body up,

733
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 3: hiding it, and then driving away to hide it further,

734
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 3: with the intention almost certainly of coming back to move

735
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 3: it again because it wasn't found.

736
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 8: Breaking down sobbing in front of other.

737
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 3: People, including the people who know you best, your mum,

738
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 3: your husband, William's sister. The other alternative is that William's

739
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 3: foster mother sits her mum down and says, this is

740
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,280
Speaker 3: what's happened. William has died and we need to hide

741
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 3: that fact, and she deals with her mum's grief, shock,

742
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 3: horror and turns that into a willing conspirator.

743
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 2: Then she does that again.

744
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 3: With William's four year old sister and turns a four

745
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 3: year old child into someone who will convincingly light a

746
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 3: police more than once for several years. And then she

747
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 3: either lies to her own husband and has done for

748
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 3: the past ten years because he's defended her when examined

749
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 3: by police, or she also convinces him.

750
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 8: And at that point you've got four people hiding a

751
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:39,320
Speaker 8: secret without cracking for a decade. Yeah, under extreme pressure.

752
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know what here in this cars made

753
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 3: me think, like it's so obvious when a car drives

754
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 3: up here because there's no other traffic that the other

755
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 3: option is that someone takes William and drives off with him.

756
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 2: And listening to that, you just would somebody not have heard.

757
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 3: That's next time on The Witness, William Tyrell. If you

758
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 3: know anything about William's disappearance, please contact crime Stoppers. There's

759
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 3: a number in the show notes for this series, but

760
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 3: if there's anything you want to tell us, you can

761
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 3: email Witness at news dot com dot Au or I'm

762
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 3: on social media and it can be completely confidential. A

763
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 3: lot of different people have been involved in making this series.

764
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 3: Among them, the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound

765
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 3: design was by Tiffany Dimack. The producers have been Emily Pigeon,

766
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 3: Nicholas Adams, Jazz Bar, Phoebe Zakowski, Wallace and Tabby Wilson.

767
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 3: Research by Adan Patrick, original music by Rory O'Connor. Our

768
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,879
Speaker 3: lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor at News dot com

769
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 3: dot Au is Kerry Warren.

770
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 2: I'm Dan Box