1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Get a welcome to the show. This is better than yesterday. 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: Useful tools and useful conversations to make your day to 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: day better than yesterday. Every week in twenty thirteen min Amsoswiginsburg, 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. It's been a 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: hell of a week to turn your phone on my phone, 6 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: I mean, just the other day, to turn my phone 7 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: on it. There's there's a bloviating, large orange man saying 8 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: that paracetam or causes autism. And I just kind of 9 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: staggered back a little bit and I hang on, hang 10 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: on a second. Look. First things first, it doesn't. And 11 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: I thought, I don't know if this person understands that 12 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: there is a very big difference between correlation and causation. 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: To put it, simply, just because this thing happens right 14 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: after that thing, or that this thing happened at the 15 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: same time as that thing, does not mean that this 16 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: thing is caused by that thing. Paracetamol causes autism about 17 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: as much as a bamboo control tower causes planes to 18 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: drop food from the sky. During World War II, the 19 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: Allied forces are the American Australians kiwis. They set up 20 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: military bases right across the Pacific places that had yet 21 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: really to have a lot of contact with modern, industrial, 22 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: mechanized civilization, places like Espiru, Santo in Vanua to Papua 23 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: New Guinea islands across Melanesia. They became strategic staging posts 24 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: for these did vast militaries and these indigenous communities from 25 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: these very remote islands. They've been living their own sophisticated 26 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: lives for thousands of years, and just the sudden arrival 27 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: of tens of thousands of troops at a time, with 28 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of personnel, you know, passing through their 29 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: home over the course of the war, it was utterly 30 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: overwhelming to them. We think about it from the perspective 31 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,559 Speaker 1: of them and their culture. These strange looking people arrive 32 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: and within weeks transformed their islands. Bulldoze and build runways, 33 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: They build all these towers, They string up wires, they 34 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: speak into boxes, they make marks on paper. Then steal 35 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:19,399 Speaker 1: birds appear out of the sky, bringing unimaginable wealth tin food, medicine, 36 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: fabric tools, machines, and for communities that were largely subsistence farmers, 37 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: bit of root vegetables, fish you get off the reef, 38 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: the amount of food that suddenly showed up. It produced 39 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: an economy of abundance unlike anything they've ever seen before. 40 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: But the people who lived there, these islanders, they weren't 41 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: passive observers. They worked alongside the troops. They learned how 42 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: to drive jeeps, They helped build the infrastructure. They watched 43 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: everything very very carefully, and because they're intelligent people trying 44 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: to understand a completely new system that has been dropped 45 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 1: on top of their world. When the war ended suddenly 46 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty five, almost of a night, the bases 47 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: were abandoned. The flow of goods and food just stopped. 48 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: But the communities, they'd made a very reasonable observation. Specific 49 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: activities preceded the arrival of cargo planes come by. They 50 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: drop a crate with a parashute on it, opened the 51 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: crate up, amazing shits inside. So they did what made 52 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: perfect sense with the incomplete information that they had. In Tanna, 53 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: in Vanawatu, there was a religious movement that emerged, and 54 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: it was called John from Friu and John From as 55 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: in John from America. Now, this movement believed in a 56 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: prophet called John from who was said to be like 57 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: a spirit or an American serviceman who promised that if 58 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: the people rejected the missionaries restrictions and returned to their 59 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: traditional customs, things like carb rituals and ceremonial dances that 60 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: the missionaries had, you know, banned them doing, if they 61 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: rejected those missionary things and they would turned to the 62 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: local customs, then John from would bring the abundance. And 63 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: it was described as cargo. You know, this manufactured goods. 64 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: So if they did this thing, this stuff would fall 65 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: from this guy. And so the believers they built airstrips, 66 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: bamboo control towers. They built things that looked like radios, 67 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: but just you know, the shapes of these things, they 68 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: didn't work. They were made of raw materials like bamboo 69 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: and pandanus palms and whatever. They dressed in replica US 70 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: Army uniforms. They performed the parade drills that they'd seen. 71 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: And it didn't just happen in one place in popworn Ne, Guinea. 72 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: Across Melanesia, similar things popped up communities. They carved headphones 73 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: made out of wood that they'd seen the control tower 74 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: people wearing. They created runways with torches lit along them. 75 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: They built life size aeroplanes made from straw and wood, 76 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: and there was an anthropologist who observed a list, a 77 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: bloke called Peter Worsley. I studied these movements quite extensively, 78 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: and he noticed that these these weren't random memoricies of 79 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: what was going on. There were systemic attempts to recreate 80 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: an observed cause and effect. And when Australian patrol officers 81 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: visited some of these communities in the fifties and sixties, 82 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: they found really sophisticated theological practical frameworks to explain why 83 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: the cargo should come. But what has this got to 84 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: do with paracetamol? These communities were doing exactly what our 85 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: brains are wired to do, identify patterns and take action 86 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: based on those patterns. It's the same mechanism that made 87 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: our ancestors think every time we see a particular kind 88 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: of cloud, the one that looks like that it's going 89 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: to rain, and that's actually quite useful, especially when you're 90 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: starting a farm or wanting to find shelter. The problem 91 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: really is that our pattern recognition software hasn't really had 92 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: an update in hundreds of thousands of years, and now 93 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: this pattern recognition system is trying to make sense of 94 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: rising autism rates and over the counter painkillers, the parasitamo 95 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 1: autism claim, which is not real. It follows the same 96 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: script because yes, paracetamol use has increased over the decades, 97 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: and yes, autism diagnoses have also increased. But you know 98 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: what else has increased? Mobile phone usage, the sale of 99 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: organic food, the number of people who have collectively watched 100 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: the Office, the American One. By the same logic, the 101 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: relationship between Jim and Pam causes autism in babies. It's 102 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: a very big difference between correlation and causation. We're not 103 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: so different. If someone wins big on the horses, right, 104 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: they will gone to the races, And so they brought 105 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: some red socks with tiny horseshoes on them, and they 106 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: put a bet on the boom multi paid off. Oh 107 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: my god, I won this bet because I've got my 108 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: horseshoe socks on. Dam every time I word these socks winning. 109 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: Next week go back to the races, same socks loses 110 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: hundreds of bucks. Week after, same socks loses rent money. 111 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: Where it gets interesting is the person who's gambling doesn't 112 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: blame the socks. Instead, they will decide, oh, I must 113 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: have put them on in the wrong order, or I 114 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: didn't wear the right andes as well. I know that 115 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: day I ate three week bicks and this day I 116 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: ate four. That's the thing, that sort of thing, that 117 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: sort of justification, that rationalization, that is your brain building 118 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: its own bamboo control tower. You're trying to recreate the 119 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: conditions that brought the planes, or in this case, you're 120 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: multi paying off, but you're focusing on all the wrong things. 121 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: Sometimes five million to one odds, that's what one in 122 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: five million looks like. Sometimes it pays off. But we 123 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: do this all over the place. So you had a 124 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: really good presentation at work. Oh, that must have been 125 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: the PowerPoint template, not the months of preparation I put 126 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: into the presentation. My kid slept all the way through 127 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: the night, amazing had to be that very specific bedtime routine, 128 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: and then the exact lullabye that I sang them, Like, No, 129 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: they just might have been developmentally ready, or your headache 130 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: went away, or it must have been that really expensive 131 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: supplement that I got from the natural path, not that 132 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: I finally drank some water and got off my phone. 133 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: But when someone with credentials, someone with authority, claims something 134 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: false like parasitam or cause autism, which it doesn't. They're 135 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: not just building a harmless bamboo control tower. They are 136 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: potentially convincing parents and pregnant women across the world to 137 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: suffer through fever and pain unnecessarily, both of which are 138 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: dangerous to unborn children. They're adding another layeristigma to parents 139 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: who are already navigating the complex world of raising a 140 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: neurodivers child, and they're muddying the waters the actual researchers 141 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: are trying to navigate to get a better understanding of 142 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: things like Buddhism. The confusion between coudization and correlation isn't 143 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: just bad science, it's real, really, really harmful, and it 144 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: diverts resources from the real research. The real science around 145 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 1: this stuff, i should say, is very very different. There 146 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: was this humongous study done in Sweden that analyzed over 147 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: two point four million children born between ninety ninety five 148 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: and twenty nineteen, and they compared children born to the 149 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: same mum where paracetamol use was different between her pregnancy, 150 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: so she did take it during one pregnancy did not 151 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: during the other one. So they didn't just look at 152 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: who took paracetamol and who had autistic children. They compared siblings. 153 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: All right, Now, if paracetamol caused autism, you would expect 154 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: to see differences between the siblings, but they did not. 155 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 1: They found no evidence that the paracetamol used during the 156 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: pregnancy increases any risk of autism. And while they were 157 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: down there, they also found no link to ADHD or 158 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: intellectual disability. And this is a state analyzing of two 159 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: point four million children. There were some earlier studies that 160 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: suggested a link, but they were unable to separate the 161 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 1: paracetamol use from why the people were taking the paris 162 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: stamore pain fever, infection, all really valid reasons to take 163 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: paracetamol and all things that also might affect development of 164 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: a baby independently. Like that kind of research, all that 165 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: kind of finding. That's kind of like blaming umbrellas for 166 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: car accidents, because you see lots of umbrellas on rainy days, right, 167 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: But I get it, I get it. It's hard to 168 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: get your head out of fear and into facts, especially 169 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: when you're talking about kids. We survive because our brains 170 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: are correlation spotting machines running on hardware that evolved when 171 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: distinguishing between the rustle of the wind and the rustle 172 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,079 Speaker 1: of a predator in the bushes was literally life and death. 173 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: We're programmed to see patterns even when they are not there. 174 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: But luckily we've evolved to ask questions, ask important questions. 175 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: Four of them. Could something explain both of these things? 176 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: For example, better and more ular diagnoses criteria explain rising 177 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: autism rates, not paracetamol? What is the mechanism, how does 178 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: it happen? How exactly does the paracetamol cause this? Where 179 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: is the pathway? Have you tested it? Have you compared 180 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 1: groups with and without the thing? We're testing for it 181 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 1: and controlling for any other variables. Very important to ask 182 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: question who benefits from this claim? Is someone trying to 183 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: sell a book or sell a supplement or an alternative, 184 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: or is someone just trying to destabilize things so chaos. 185 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: We can actually learn a lot from our Pacific neighbors. 186 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: What's really interesting about these cargo cults, which is what 187 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: they were called, not only is how these belief systems 188 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: and these practices how they emerge, but it's also how 189 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: the communities involve eventually moved past them. And it wasn't 190 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: through ridicule or making fun of them or forced education. 191 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: It happened through an exchange of information economic development, and 192 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: most importantly, when the local leaders integrated this new understanding 193 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: about the world into the existing knowledge that they have, 194 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: they move past colo cousts because they gained access to 195 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: the full picture. Once these communities understood global economics, colonialism, 196 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: supply chains, the bamboo reports became unnecessary. The problem is, 197 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: even though we have access to better information, sometimes we 198 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: can tend to choose the simple story instead, usually the 199 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,439 Speaker 1: one that makes us feel the safest or the most 200 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 1: in control. But that doesn't mean it's real. So if 201 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: you hear a claim like well, X causes why take 202 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: a moment look and see if there's any bamboo control 203 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: towels around. Ask yourself, are you seeing causation or just correlation? 204 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: In a makeshift uniform marching around with a wooden pair 205 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: of headphones waiting for a plane that was never coming 206 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: in the first place. Because under standing the difference between 207 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: correlation and causation isn't about being scientifically literate. It's about 208 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:10,479 Speaker 1: making better decisions, about asking better questions, and not torturing 209 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: itself with guilt over the paracetamol you took more than 210 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: you were pregnant because you had a fever. The planes 211 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:23,599 Speaker 1: came in the first place because of complex geopolitical forces 212 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: that no one could have predicted, long long supply chains, 213 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: intricate and very very intense military strategy. They did not 214 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: arrive because someone marched in the right pattern. And as 215 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: far as autism is concerned, well, there's no single known cause. 216 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: It is complicated. They may include genetics and environmental factors, 217 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: but we know and it's been proven that they definitely 218 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 1: do not include paracetamol. I hope that's useful, and I 219 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: hope the next time you remember someone making a bold 220 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: claim like that, look for the bamboo control tower. Thank 221 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: you so much for listening. Thanks to Adam A. Bunch 222 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: who produces episode. I'll see you on Wednesday.