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Speaker 1: Apogee Production. Welcome to Secrets of the Underworld. I am

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Speaker 1: Neil the Muscle comments in this episode, I speak with

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Speaker 1: Rachel Williams, founder of Stand Up to Domestic Abuse.

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Speaker 2: Crazy control of behavior did become an effect until December

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Speaker 2: twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 3: He would cave their skulls in for the shovel. He

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Speaker 3: was every sunny day.

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Speaker 2: And as I walked into the kitchen there, I felt

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Speaker 2: his hands about my neck and he started shaker be

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Speaker 2: playing these different sofas, you know, like the charm and

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Speaker 2: the head worker, you know, all these different characters. Baggy

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Speaker 2: add in front of him and as I as he's

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Speaker 2: doing this, I can see it's a gun and he's

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Speaker 2: pullin out a sawn off shock.

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Speaker 1: I do want to thank you for coming on. A

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Speaker 1: big thank you to you. I'd like to know you

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Speaker 1: before you actually met Darren, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: and get to know you, yeah, on the lead up

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Speaker 1: to him, and then then we'll get into the nitty

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Speaker 1: gritty of you know, the psychopath that he was. So

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Speaker 1: I'll let you take it away, Rache, and then you tell.

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Speaker 2: Me, okay, all right then, So well, thanks for having

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Speaker 2: me on, Neil.

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Speaker 3: It's a great privilege. To come on you in and

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Speaker 3: hopefully we can get the.

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Speaker 2: Message across to your audience as well around domestic abuse

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Speaker 2: and violence, because I think sometimes you know, people who

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Speaker 2: have never been touched by that. It's almost like cancer,

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Speaker 2: you know, you always know somebody that's been affected when

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Speaker 2: you sort of have those conversations. But you know, domestic

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Speaker 2: abuse and violence, you know, has no respector for age, race, class,

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Speaker 2: no gender, you know, and these people who do commit

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Speaker 2: these violent to borrent offenses, I just say scum of

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Speaker 2: the earth because it's generally you know, male perpetrators to

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Speaker 2: female victims. But I'm not pup with male victims from

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Speaker 2: female perpetrators at all. I have, you know, certainly helped

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Speaker 2: male perpetrators, but today as I stand, you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: here as a female victim from a male perpetrator.

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Speaker 3: You know, my life started off, you know, really well.

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Speaker 2: You know, my mom got with with a guy, and

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Speaker 2: you know, and got married, you know, had a good childhood,

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Speaker 2: got a sister, and my mom split up with Ray,

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Speaker 2: who at the time I thought was my dad, but

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Speaker 2: and it wasn't my dad. And then I met my

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Speaker 2: real dad when I was twenty Nine'm very complicated, you know.

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Speaker 3: As families go. But yeah, my childhood was great. You know.

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Speaker 2: I was always always one of those kids in school there,

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Speaker 2: always had too much chops, you know. The teacher used

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Speaker 2: to be saying all the time, you know, very chatty.

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Speaker 2: And I can remember one of my teachers said to me, Rachel,

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Speaker 2: do me a faith, Just promise me you'll be something

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Speaker 2: like a police officer because you can mix with all sorts.

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh, I don't know about that, you know.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, I was always raring smoker's corner, hanging around with

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Speaker 2: the boys, you know.

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Speaker 3: True.

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Speaker 2: And in up school, I always thought that I was

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Speaker 2: like Joan Collins. I used to watch this al you

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Speaker 2: know with with the with the red lipstick on the

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Speaker 2: red nail vanished perfect puffing on a more fag in.

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Speaker 3: This cigarette holder. You know. We love in life as

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Speaker 3: like a fifteen year old teenager, you know.

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Speaker 2: And I and I had a good, good childhood, you know.

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Speaker 2: And and then I met a guy called Ian who

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Speaker 2: I had a child with. He was almost can I

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Speaker 2: put it a bit of a football hooligan I speak,

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Speaker 2: you know, go off to the to the to the

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Speaker 2: football matches, always ended up scrapping.

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Speaker 3: Come on one day teeth missing, you know, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 2: Actually it was Newport County, so Newport County and Cardiff

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Speaker 2: we're always scrapping, you know, and yeah, so with him

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Speaker 2: we sort of split up. So I was a single

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Speaker 2: mom with a two year old nipper, you know, and

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Speaker 2: I had Josh at nineteen, so you know, I was

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Speaker 2: a young man as well. Didn't really know much about relationships,

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Speaker 2: as you don't, you know, you sort of.

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Speaker 3: Just go in with both feet and just you know,

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Speaker 3: just get on with it.

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Speaker 2: And then I met Darren who was one of my

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Speaker 2: neighbors across the road, her brother, and then it sort

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Speaker 2: of just just all went downhill from it.

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Speaker 1: Did how did you meet him? Did he did he

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Speaker 1: just like? Was he just over at the house or what?

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Speaker 1: Did you Yes?

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Speaker 2: So basically I was over a house having a cup

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Speaker 2: of coffee and her brother come in then and he

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Speaker 2: was a big guy then. He was six foot seven

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Speaker 2: and about eighteen stone, you know, and he was quite

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Speaker 2: witty and funny. So we had a bit of bantern,

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Speaker 2: had a bit of a laugh and apparently he said like,

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Speaker 2: you know, I really like it. And then the next

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Speaker 2: thing then he was sort of like, come over my house,

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Speaker 2: then for a cup of coffee, and it sort of

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Speaker 2: went from you know. And I always say to people,

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Speaker 2: you know, if a perpetrator of a you slapped you

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Speaker 2: on the first day, you wonldn't be going back for

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Speaker 2: a freaking second day. You know, that would be it.

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Speaker 2: But they are very manipulative. They sort of zoom into

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Speaker 2: any vulnerabilities that they can see. They say all the

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Speaker 2: things that they think you want to hear. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: as a nineteen sorry, as a twenty one year old.

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Speaker 2: I was twenty one when I met When I met Darren,

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Speaker 2: as a twenty one year old with you know, not

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Speaker 2: a lot of life experience, single, you know, and then

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Speaker 2: this guy's taking an interest, you know, feeling like as

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Speaker 2: a single mother, you know, I don't know where life's

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Speaker 2: going to go.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was chammed by him, you know, they

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Speaker 3: are chammers.

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Speaker 1: And how did he take to you? How did he

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Speaker 1: take to you you having a kid?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well he was fine with that, you know, as

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Speaker 2: I thought at the beginning. I mean later on he

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Speaker 2: showed that, you know, he was fine with it, but

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Speaker 2: he was extremely jealous of the attention that I showed

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Speaker 2: my two year old. Then as time went on, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: he was all right. He'd come around, you know, Easter

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Speaker 2: time because we met in the match and then and

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Speaker 2: then it was Eastern not long after, you know, with

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Speaker 2: Easter eggs for Josh, and I thought, oh, that's really kind,

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Speaker 2: you know, quite sweet sort of thing to do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and then we just sort of like hit it off.

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Speaker 2: And just just sort of went along with the flow

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Speaker 2: of it because he.

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Speaker 1: Was a dormant, wasn't he. He was a dormant.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a dormant. He worked worked on the

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Speaker 2: on the clubs, you know. I mean, he was always

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Speaker 2: always getting into scrapes.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: I can remember years down the line that the chief

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Speaker 2: constable going up to one of the nightclubs that he

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Speaker 2: worked at and said, you know, if you don't put

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Speaker 2: him on a leash, he said, then I will personally

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Speaker 2: come and lift in myself, because basically he was just

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Speaker 2: throwing people down flights of stairs. I can remember one

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Speaker 2: coppers come into the house at one point because he'd

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Speaker 2: actually hit somebody in the face and actually smashed all

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Speaker 2: his phoning and he had to have a plate in

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Speaker 2: his face.

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Speaker 3: This this young boy did. I mean, he was a bully.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's no two ways about it. He was

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Speaker 2: a bully. I mean, he liked to check his weight around.

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Speaker 1: And this is what really intrigued me about your story

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Speaker 1: because when when I found out this guy was a dormant,

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Speaker 1: it was like, wow, It's like he had two sides

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Speaker 1: to him, you know what I mean, like the gentle

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Speaker 1: the gentle person with you, and then he'd be this

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Speaker 1: psychopathic work, you know what I mean, And then he

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Speaker 1: kind of switched it round in the end and became

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Speaker 1: the psycho at home, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean, Yeah, but yes, you are right.

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Speaker 2: But but what I would say is the mask slips,

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Speaker 2: you know, because perpetrators of abuse got this sort of

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Speaker 2: persona and then and then the mask will be on,

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Speaker 2: you know, sort of like portraying what they think everybody

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Speaker 2: needs to see. But very quickly it became obvious that

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Speaker 2: Darren was an abuser, you know, even though I didn't

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Speaker 2: realize at the time. But yeah, the jealousy, everything you

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Speaker 2: know that that I know now as a professional working

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Speaker 2: in the arena. I mean, the red flags were just

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Speaker 2: screaming at me from day one, you know, but I

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Speaker 2: just didn't know what to look for.

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Speaker 1: When was it when was the first time you actually

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Speaker 1: seen it.

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Speaker 3: The most vivid moment for me.

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Speaker 2: I mean they were sort of like run ups to it,

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Speaker 2: but the most vivid, vivid moment for me because they

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Speaker 2: all escalated very quickly. So he sort of like moved

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Speaker 2: in with me within a year. You know, I was

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Speaker 2: pregnant with you know, just not long after that. And

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Speaker 2: I think the most vivid memory I've got of it

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Speaker 2: was when we had a row and I was seven

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Speaker 2: months pregnant with his child, and he run up the

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Speaker 2: stairs and he picked me up by my throat and

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Speaker 2: lifted me off the floor, and he later told me,

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Speaker 2: let me go when my lips turned blue.

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Speaker 1: Is that when you came home from the party.

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Speaker 2: No, that's another that's another incident that was That was

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Speaker 2: another one before the pregnancy. So we were walking home

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Speaker 2: from a friend's twenty first birthday barbecue, and it was

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Speaker 2: quite late at night. And one thing down was he

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Speaker 2: wasn't a drinker. He might have half a lagger, but

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Speaker 2: he wasn't a drinker. He didn't take drugs than an

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Speaker 2: anabolic steroids.

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Speaker 3: So we were walking.

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Speaker 2: Home through a through a like a shortcut through a pack,

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Speaker 2: and I can remember him saying to me because my

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Speaker 2: friend had brought a previous boyfriend up.

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Speaker 3: Now a previous boyfriend.

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Speaker 2: I met out with this boy for like about two months,

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Speaker 2: you know, bear in mind twenty when he was like,

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Speaker 2: he was a nobody, you know. And I remember him

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Speaker 2: saying something about this boy and me, you know, because

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Speaker 2: I'd had a few drinks. And I turned around and

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Speaker 2: I said, that's something your fucking business that was before,

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Speaker 2: you know, why are you getting all like jealous? And

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Speaker 2: the next thing, then he like, I remember being face

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Speaker 2: down in a load of stingy nettles down an embankment

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Speaker 2: where he actually shoved me and I fell down the embankment,

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Speaker 2: and I remember so like putting my hand up for him.

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Speaker 3: To pull me up. I thought i'd slipped because I'd

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Speaker 3: got a few drinks and he was nowhere to be seen.

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Speaker 3: So I managed to clamber out.

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Speaker 2: And then as I'm walking over, and I don't know

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Speaker 2: about you, you've probably been stung by bumble stings.

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Speaker 3: Of music call and his nippers.

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Speaker 2: I mean I could feel my face starting to froth

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Speaker 2: with all his flood yeah yeah, yeah. And then I

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Speaker 2: got home and I was like, and he was walking

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Speaker 2: in front of me and I'm like, what, you know,

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Speaker 2: what happened sort of thing, you know, And then he

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Speaker 2: buggered off to his flat, and then he came back

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Speaker 2: the next day with a bunch of flowers, apologizing, really

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Speaker 2: apologizing and saying, I don't know what come over me.

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Speaker 2: I was really jealous, you know, don't know what it was.

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Speaker 2: I promise it won't happen again sort of thing. And

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Speaker 2: when you know you're sort of in love with somebody,

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Speaker 2: you do make excuses.

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Speaker 3: And I thought this was just a one off, you know,

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Speaker 3: But sadly it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: When you know, when he moved in, was it him

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Speaker 1: who decided to move in or did you ask him

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Speaker 1: to move in?

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Speaker 2: It was a sort of combination. So he was sort

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Speaker 2: of like running a flat and necessary. I was a

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Speaker 2: single in a housing sort of a home. Darren had

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Speaker 2: working dogs. Then he used to keep up his mums,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't really know what a working dog was.

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Speaker 2: And then he's like, you know, about moving in. He said,

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Speaker 2: you know, you got a nice guard and I could

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Speaker 2: build of kennels and I've never had animals like that,

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Speaker 2: you know, And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's fine.

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Speaker 2: Then he brought his working dogs to the house, and

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Speaker 2: I remember looking at them and thinking, bloody yeh, you

236
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Speaker 2: know some of the mad half are face missing, you know,

237
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Speaker 2: And I'm thinking, you know, this is not your friendly

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Speaker 2: like little Pucci dog, you know, your cockapool or whatever.

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Speaker 3: And they were like Patterdale.

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Speaker 2: Terriers and there was a couple of jack wrestles and all,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, you know, what, what what do

242
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Speaker 2: you help with them?

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Speaker 3: Men? If they're working dogs?

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Speaker 2: And then I found out he used to badge a

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Speaker 2: bit and fox Hunt and you know, I don't just

246
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Speaker 2: mean badger bait. I mean he would carve their skulls

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Speaker 2: in with a shovel. He was, yeah, and when we know,

248
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Speaker 2: when we're putting on this psychopathy sort of spectrum, there's

249
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Speaker 2: no empathy or compassion, and hurting animals is right up there,

250
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Speaker 2: you know.

251
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Speaker 3: But yeah, that's what I used to do.

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Speaker 1: Did you used to see him do that?

253
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Speaker 3: I went, I never seen him do it.

254
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Speaker 2: Do it once someone on a Sunday walk with him

255
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Speaker 2: and he said, oh, we'll walk the dogs. And the

256
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Speaker 2: dogs had gone down one of the sets that we

257
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Speaker 2: were walking across a farm and he said, oh, I

258
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Speaker 2: you know, thank god, I got a shovel in the

259
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Speaker 2: in the back of the land rover and I sort

260
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Speaker 2: of like went off and I know that he actually

261
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Speaker 2: a badger came out and he actually spaded it and

262
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Speaker 2: killed it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Jesus Christ.

264
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Speaker 2: And another thing he'd done as well, Neil, when we

265
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Speaker 2: moved to our other house. While we're on that theme

266
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Speaker 2: of cruelty to animals, I can remember one day being

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Speaker 2: and it was a sunny day, and I can remember

268
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Speaker 2: hearing this cat crying out the garden and I thinking,

269
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Speaker 2: where the hell is that coming from. So we had

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Speaker 2: kennels down the bottom of the garden with two runs.

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Speaker 2: There was about eight working dogs down there, and I

272
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Speaker 2: could hear this cat crying. So I went down out

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Speaker 2: the garden to sort of see, you know, where this

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Speaker 2: sound was coming from. And as I opened the gate

275
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Speaker 2: to go to the second part of the garden, there

276
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Speaker 2: was a cage by the side of there, and in

277
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Speaker 2: there was a cat, and I'm thinking, what the fucking

278
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Speaker 2: hell's going on here, basically, So I went back into

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Speaker 2: the house and he was upstairs.

280
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Speaker 3: My shaded there's a there's a there's a cat and

281
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Speaker 3: a cage at the garden.

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Speaker 2: So he can running down the stairs in his fucking

283
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Speaker 2: budgy smugglers. I can always remember it. And he's like,

284
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Speaker 2: it's none of your fucking business. Shut your mate, And

285
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Speaker 2: I said, no, there's a there's a cat in the

286
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Speaker 2: in a cage down there.

287
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Speaker 3: And with that then he went matching down.

288
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Speaker 2: The garden, opened the cage, picked the cat up, and

289
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Speaker 2: I knew exactly what he was going to do, Neil,

290
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Speaker 2: I shut the back door, I closed all the windows,

291
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Speaker 2: doing the telly up, and he checked the cat in

292
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Speaker 2: with the dogs.

293
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Speaker 1: Ship. Yeah, but the way you just like you just

294
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Speaker 1: told the story then and then you stopped and you

295
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Speaker 1: and he told you to shut your fucking mouth. Wasn't

296
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Speaker 1: that a red flag to the way he was talking

297
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Speaker 1: to you?

298
00:14:02,721 --> 00:14:02,921
Speaker 3: Oh?

299
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Speaker 2: This this was this was a couple of years into

300
00:14:04,561 --> 00:14:08,001
Speaker 2: the relationship. I'd already knew where I was. I was

301
00:14:08,041 --> 00:14:11,601
Speaker 2: in this in almost like sinking sort of quicksand and

302
00:14:11,641 --> 00:14:12,801
Speaker 2: I'm just keeping my neck.

303
00:14:12,681 --> 00:14:16,201
Speaker 3: Above the water. You know, you know what to do

304
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Speaker 3: or not.

305
00:14:16,561 --> 00:14:19,561
Speaker 2: What to say now and again I'd retaliate back, but

306
00:14:19,681 --> 00:14:21,361
Speaker 2: I sort of knew where the line was.

307
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Speaker 1: What was his family like were they abusive to him

308
00:14:24,921 --> 00:14:27,961
Speaker 1: when he was a kid or were they hard on him?

309
00:14:28,201 --> 00:14:30,801
Speaker 2: No? And it's all in the report, so I'm not

310
00:14:31,081 --> 00:14:34,161
Speaker 2: disclosing anything that's not right there. You know, he was

311
00:14:34,161 --> 00:14:37,881
Speaker 2: brought up in a violent household himself, you know, And

312
00:14:37,961 --> 00:14:39,801
Speaker 2: they say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree,

313
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Speaker 2: And what we know from research is when a child

314
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Speaker 2: is brought up in that toxic environment, there's a high

315
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Speaker 2: percentage they'll either become a perpetrator themselves or they become

316
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Speaker 2: a victim. And so, you know, the environment won very

317
00:14:52,161 --> 00:14:55,121
Speaker 2: good in the household. There was a few siblings as well.

318
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Speaker 2: His brother committed suicide when he was twenty one, So

319
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Speaker 2: there's this theme sort of in the you know, that

320
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Speaker 2: sort of household. But yeah, you know, they knew what

321
00:15:07,801 --> 00:15:10,001
Speaker 2: he was like. They all knew what he was like.

322
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Speaker 1: But but did any of them reach out to you

323
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Speaker 1: or see if you're okay when it started to get

324
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Speaker 1: hectic with you and him?

325
00:15:17,121 --> 00:15:20,401
Speaker 2: No, no, no, because whilst he was my problem, he

326
00:15:20,521 --> 00:15:21,361
Speaker 2: wasn't their problem.

327
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Speaker 1: Oh my god, if you know what I mean.

328
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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so it just sort of like progressed from that.

329
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Speaker 3: And then I later I found out that he was

330
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Speaker 3: a serial perpetrator as well. It was all on police record,

331
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Speaker 3: you know, but.

332
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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it was it was almost like that

333
00:15:38,001 --> 00:15:41,801
Speaker 2: roller coaster where every day you were walking on eggshells.

334
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Speaker 2: And that is that the who ever come up with

335
00:15:43,161 --> 00:15:46,641
Speaker 2: that terminology is spot on, and it is you know,

336
00:15:46,681 --> 00:15:49,041
Speaker 2: almost second guessing constantly, you know, what is he going

337
00:15:49,081 --> 00:15:51,601
Speaker 2: to be like today? So you know, for instance, when

338
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Speaker 2: I was pregnant with Jack, you know, it was his

339
00:15:55,161 --> 00:15:57,841
Speaker 2: first child, and he was excited, and you know, I

340
00:15:57,961 --> 00:16:03,521
Speaker 2: ended up having him, and I remember Darren's main comment

341
00:16:03,641 --> 00:16:08,441
Speaker 2: about jack birthdate was, oh, my godness, you know he

342
00:16:08,481 --> 00:16:11,521
Speaker 2: was he was born on the day that Ronnie Craze

343
00:16:11,561 --> 00:16:17,921
Speaker 2: shot George Cornell. Now you know who actually, yeah, who

344
00:16:17,961 --> 00:16:20,161
Speaker 2: comes out with that, I mean is But Darren's bedtime

345
00:16:20,161 --> 00:16:23,721
Speaker 2: reading was Johnny Brasco al Capone, the Craze, you name it.

346
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Speaker 3: That was.

347
00:16:24,361 --> 00:16:27,601
Speaker 2: He always used to fantasize about being a being sort

348
00:16:27,601 --> 00:16:30,921
Speaker 2: of his age. Yeah, yeah, basically you know, because he

349
00:16:31,001 --> 00:16:33,281
Speaker 2: was a big guy as well, and people feared him

350
00:16:33,281 --> 00:16:34,801
Speaker 2: and people used to pay him many to go in

351
00:16:34,841 --> 00:16:37,801
Speaker 2: court and intimidate witnesses. He always used to dream of

352
00:16:37,801 --> 00:16:40,401
Speaker 2: that lifestyle and which he was around, you know, in

353
00:16:40,481 --> 00:16:42,521
Speaker 2: the sixties, to be able to be in with that

354
00:16:42,601 --> 00:16:46,601
Speaker 2: sort of group of people. Yeah, but yeah, you know

355
00:16:47,921 --> 00:16:48,841
Speaker 2: as time went.

356
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Speaker 1: On, you know, was he controlling?

357
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Speaker 2: Oh well, this is quite interesting, right because I didn't

358
00:16:56,241 --> 00:16:58,921
Speaker 2: realize they controlling Darren was even though I knew he

359
00:16:58,961 --> 00:17:03,321
Speaker 2: was physically abusive, I didn't realize like about the coercion.

360
00:17:03,481 --> 00:17:05,961
Speaker 2: And we know that in the UK, coercive control and

361
00:17:06,001 --> 00:17:11,321
Speaker 2: behavior didn't become an offense until December twenty fifteen. And

362
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,561
Speaker 2: I can remember, three years after the Internet, which you

363
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:15,680
Speaker 2: were going to talk about in a bit, I had

364
00:17:15,721 --> 00:17:19,801
Speaker 2: a phone call from a women's organization and they said, oh, Rachel,

365
00:17:19,801 --> 00:17:22,001
Speaker 2: you know, we got Professor Evan Start coming over. We're

366
00:17:22,001 --> 00:17:25,481
Speaker 2: gonna do this conference on coercion. You know, would love

367
00:17:25,521 --> 00:17:27,041
Speaker 2: you to come and share the stage with him. And

368
00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,440
Speaker 2: I said oh, And I was like, yeah, I love that.

369
00:17:29,481 --> 00:17:31,160
Speaker 2: I said, I love Evan and I said, but I

370
00:17:31,241 --> 00:17:33,841
Speaker 2: don't know anything about coercion. And then the phone went

371
00:17:33,921 --> 00:17:36,720
Speaker 2: really quiet, and I'm like, are you stil love? And

372
00:17:36,761 --> 00:17:40,440
Speaker 2: she said, Rachel, didn't you say you couldn't quite socializing

373
00:17:40,481 --> 00:17:42,241
Speaker 2: me your friends? Didn't you say you couldn't wear a

374
00:17:42,281 --> 00:17:45,121
Speaker 2: shirt skirt? Didn't you say as a hairdresser you were

375
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,400
Speaker 2: forbidden from kuttner Man's hair. Didn't you say didn't you say?

376
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:48,961
Speaker 2: Didn't you say?

377
00:17:48,961 --> 00:17:49,641
Speaker 3: And I'm like yeah.

378
00:17:49,721 --> 00:17:53,121
Speaker 2: They said that's coercion, and I said, fucking hell, I've

379
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:56,241
Speaker 2: been coerced to the ILK. And what happens is when

380
00:17:56,241 --> 00:17:59,640
Speaker 2: you get with the perpetrated abuse, they don't know, all

381
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,160
Speaker 2: of a sudden start demanding you do this.

382
00:18:02,281 --> 00:18:04,720
Speaker 3: You don't do that. What they sought to do.

383
00:18:04,801 --> 00:18:09,361
Speaker 2: Is is seeping these terms and conditions into your relationship

384
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,840
Speaker 2: that you don't even know are in place until you

385
00:18:11,921 --> 00:18:13,880
Speaker 2: breach one of those terms of conditions.

386
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:15,801
Speaker 3: Then there's a consequence, you know.

387
00:18:15,921 --> 00:18:18,561
Speaker 2: So all of a sudden, I started changing my behavior

388
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,321
Speaker 2: over the years to suit him, and I almost become

389
00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:25,801
Speaker 2: an extension of his will. So everything I'd done was

390
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,761
Speaker 2: what would lease him and keep basically keep me safe.

391
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,401
Speaker 3: It's so bizarre.

392
00:18:33,041 --> 00:18:35,561
Speaker 1: So stop seeing friends and that kind of thing, or

393
00:18:35,761 --> 00:18:36,801
Speaker 1: like going out.

394
00:18:36,761 --> 00:18:40,521
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, oh my god. Yeah. He isolated me, really

395
00:18:40,561 --> 00:18:41,120
Speaker 3: isolated me.

396
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,761
Speaker 2: And I remember one incident, so when we when we

397
00:18:43,761 --> 00:18:48,760
Speaker 2: were living opposite his sister, my neighbor, Kim said to me, oh,

398
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 2: do you fancy come in for a night out in

399
00:18:50,801 --> 00:18:55,161
Speaker 2: front of Darren? And I'm like, oh, I said, it's

400
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,640
Speaker 2: not really for me, you know, trying to make excuses.

401
00:18:57,681 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 2: She goes, oh, come on, here'll be good laugh, and

402
00:18:59,681 --> 00:19:02,081
Speaker 2: Darren's looking at me, he's yeah, go on, go go.

403
00:19:02,721 --> 00:19:03,720
Speaker 3: Now I'm bricking it.

404
00:19:03,761 --> 00:19:06,761
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, is he testing me to say yeah, I'm

405
00:19:06,801 --> 00:19:09,720
Speaker 2: gonna go, or for me to say no, you know,

406
00:19:09,961 --> 00:19:12,401
Speaker 2: I'm not going to go. Make the excuse. So then

407
00:19:12,441 --> 00:19:14,361
Speaker 2: she kept on and Down goes, yeah, she will go,

408
00:19:14,561 --> 00:19:16,640
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking, oh my god, where is this going

409
00:19:16,721 --> 00:19:19,160
Speaker 2: to lead now? Anyway, he said, yeah, you can go,

410
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,281
Speaker 2: we said, and you'll be in by fucking twelve o'clock.

411
00:19:22,001 --> 00:19:26,200
Speaker 2: So I'm like, right, okay, right, okay. So you know,

412
00:19:26,321 --> 00:19:29,880
Speaker 2: I'm upstairs getting ready now for this night out, trying

413
00:19:29,921 --> 00:19:31,881
Speaker 2: not to be happy that I'm allowed to go out,

414
00:19:32,321 --> 00:19:35,201
Speaker 2: feeling really uneasy, and thinking there's gonna be there's gonna

415
00:19:35,201 --> 00:19:37,521
Speaker 2: be fucking murder. At some point, you know, he kept

416
00:19:37,561 --> 00:19:39,441
Speaker 2: coming up the stairs and saying to me, got too

417
00:19:39,481 --> 00:19:41,120
Speaker 2: much fucking makeup on there? You know, you want to

418
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,081
Speaker 2: rub some of that off, you know what you're wearing,

419
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,921
Speaker 2: you know, because shortskirts were forbidden, you know, it had

420
00:19:45,961 --> 00:19:49,880
Speaker 2: to be almost like a fucking burker, you know. And

421
00:19:49,961 --> 00:19:52,281
Speaker 2: I was like, why why am I going? I thought,

422
00:19:52,281 --> 00:19:54,401
Speaker 2: if I start getting upset now, he's going to get

423
00:19:54,441 --> 00:19:55,441
Speaker 2: his head off even more.

424
00:19:55,481 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 3: So.

425
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,881
Speaker 2: Anyway, I got ready to go out, so we're out

426
00:19:58,921 --> 00:19:59,360
Speaker 2: in town.

427
00:19:59,441 --> 00:20:03,120
Speaker 3: Now. I'm not enjoying myself much because you know, most

428
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:04,880
Speaker 3: women will say you could have it like a fucking

429
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,081
Speaker 3: There'll be somebody you'll make a comment to you. Some

430
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:08,120
Speaker 3: guy will make a comment.

431
00:20:08,241 --> 00:20:11,400
Speaker 2: Right, So I'm literally in a peb with blinkers on,

432
00:20:11,561 --> 00:20:15,041
Speaker 2: not making eye contact with anybody. Darren knows all the dorman.

433
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,241
Speaker 2: So I'm thinking, I just this is the last place

434
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:20,521
Speaker 2: on earth I want to be right. So I can

435
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,441
Speaker 2: remember saying to Kim then and I was kept looking

436
00:20:22,441 --> 00:20:24,920
Speaker 2: at my watch, looking at my watch, I said, I

437
00:20:25,041 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 2: need to be on by twelve, I said, because he

438
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:27,521
Speaker 2: won't be very happy.

439
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:28,600
Speaker 3: So she said okay.

440
00:20:29,321 --> 00:20:32,400
Speaker 2: So anyway, I also get to taxi, so we're not

441
00:20:32,441 --> 00:20:34,400
Speaker 2: far from ten, about ten minutes. So I jump in

442
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,200
Speaker 2: this taxi about twenty to twelve, knowing I'm going to

443
00:20:37,241 --> 00:20:39,761
Speaker 2: be on about ten to ten to twelve. Now Darren

444
00:20:39,761 --> 00:20:42,201
Speaker 2: told me this after, so I'm relaying everything that Darren

445
00:20:42,241 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 2: have told me. So he said he's looking at his

446
00:20:44,721 --> 00:20:48,160
Speaker 2: watch now at quarter two and saying to himself winding

447
00:20:48,241 --> 00:20:51,761
Speaker 2: himself up. She's fucking pushing it to the last minute,

448
00:20:51,801 --> 00:20:54,840
Speaker 2: and she she's fucking pushing it to the last minute, right,

449
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 2: So what happens then is I get home in the taxi.

450
00:20:59,681 --> 00:21:02,920
Speaker 2: He hid downstairs in the deck because he didn't want

451
00:21:02,921 --> 00:21:04,561
Speaker 2: he wouldn't go to sleep just in case I come

452
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,041
Speaker 2: in five past twelve, because he wanted to know what

453
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,801
Speaker 2: time I was in because they'd be murder.

454
00:21:09,241 --> 00:21:10,960
Speaker 3: So he in his haste.

455
00:21:11,001 --> 00:21:14,041
Speaker 2: Then he'd locked the front door because he wanted to

456
00:21:14,041 --> 00:21:15,521
Speaker 2: know when I was coming in. But he was sat

457
00:21:15,561 --> 00:21:19,281
Speaker 2: downstairs in the deck. Then he heard the taxi run upstairs.

458
00:21:19,281 --> 00:21:21,921
Speaker 2: He told me, stubbed his toe going up the stairs,

459
00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:25,561
Speaker 2: right run up the stairs, so he didn't know whether

460
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,481
Speaker 2: it was me or not because he heard next door

461
00:21:27,561 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 2: go in. I couldn't get in because he'd locked me

462
00:21:30,801 --> 00:21:33,681
Speaker 2: fucking out. So I'm ringing the house phone to.

463
00:21:33,681 --> 00:21:35,521
Speaker 3: Say, come and let me in.

464
00:21:36,001 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 2: He's got he's upstairs saying to his winding himself up, saying,

465
00:21:40,441 --> 00:21:44,360
Speaker 2: so she kims in and that fucker is still in town,

466
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,801
Speaker 2: and she's ringing me to tell me she's still in town.

467
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:48,881
Speaker 2: This is what he's say to himself. And I'm trying

468
00:21:48,921 --> 00:21:52,640
Speaker 2: to get in the fucking door downstairs. So this was

469
00:21:52,721 --> 00:21:53,241
Speaker 2: my life.

470
00:21:53,281 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 3: You know.

471
00:21:53,521 --> 00:21:56,160
Speaker 2: In the end, I just did not go anywhere. It

472
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,921
Speaker 2: just was not worth it. It wasn't worth it.

473
00:21:59,521 --> 00:22:00,360
Speaker 1: Were you scared of him?

474
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:01,441
Speaker 3: Oh my god?

475
00:22:01,521 --> 00:22:01,761
Speaker 1: Yeah?

476
00:22:01,961 --> 00:22:02,361
Speaker 3: Yeah.

477
00:22:02,481 --> 00:22:04,521
Speaker 2: I mean you know, like I said, you know, not

478
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:09,201
Speaker 2: only a male to a female, you're always going over

479
00:22:09,281 --> 00:22:11,880
Speaker 2: power them. But he was six foot seven, twenty two stone,

480
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 2: with a sixty inch chest, with a you know, psychopathic tendencies,

481
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 2: you know, somebody who was cruel to animals, somebody who

482
00:22:19,001 --> 00:22:21,680
Speaker 2: always instilled in me that there's only one way eight

483
00:22:21,761 --> 00:22:23,041
Speaker 2: for you, and that's in a wooden box.

484
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,680
Speaker 3: So yeah, I was scared of it.

485
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,721
Speaker 1: Oh how far into the relationship did you get scared

486
00:22:27,721 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 1: of him?

487
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:35,120
Speaker 2: I think probably. I can remember another incident when Jack

488
00:22:35,241 --> 00:22:39,081
Speaker 2: was about two and a half and he started over

489
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,281
Speaker 2: something and I backlipped a little bit, you know, because

490
00:22:42,321 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: you do retaliate to some point. And I can remember

491
00:22:44,681 --> 00:22:46,361
Speaker 2: him swinging me around the kitchen.

492
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:46,761
Speaker 3: By my hair.

493
00:22:46,801 --> 00:22:49,241
Speaker 2: And we had quite a big kitchen and it had

494
00:22:49,241 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 2: this shitty called carpet on there because it was like

495
00:22:51,521 --> 00:22:55,041
Speaker 2: a family carehouse, and I had loafers on with rubber

496
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:58,321
Speaker 2: souls and it left two huge circles where he was

497
00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:01,281
Speaker 2: swinging me around and the bottom of my shoe was

498
00:23:01,321 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 2: on the carpet. And I remember looking at Jack and thinking,

499
00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 2: he's even doing this friend of his son.

500
00:23:06,681 --> 00:23:12,641
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, you never ever trial or think I've

501
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,521
Speaker 1: got to get out of this, or did you always

502
00:23:14,561 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 1: think that it was going to get better.

503
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,401
Speaker 3: You always hang on to that hope.

504
00:23:18,201 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 2: It's going to get better, and you always hang on

505
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 2: to that hope that you can fix them in some way,

506
00:23:22,521 --> 00:23:23,321
Speaker 2: shape or form.

507
00:23:23,761 --> 00:23:25,641
Speaker 3: I mean, you can't.

508
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 2: Fix a perpetrator unless a perpetrator wants to be fixed.

509
00:23:28,201 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 2: And Darren was you know. I used to say to him,

510
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:31,761
Speaker 2: if you die, I'm going to give your brain to

511
00:23:31,801 --> 00:23:34,041
Speaker 2: medical research, because your brain is like the fucking Da

512
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:34,921
Speaker 2: Vinci code.

513
00:23:35,241 --> 00:23:38,561
Speaker 3: Honestly, it was so fucked up his brain. And I can.

514
00:23:38,441 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 2: Remember saying, you know, I'm going to give it to

515
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 2: medical research. And he used to laugh because he used

516
00:23:42,201 --> 00:23:45,321
Speaker 2: to say, I am like Jacqueline Hyde Bay. One day

517
00:23:45,481 --> 00:23:48,321
Speaker 2: I'll be Darren Theanetti, and then I'll be Daniel, who's

518
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:50,281
Speaker 2: the nice one, you know, So he used to say

519
00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:50,801
Speaker 2: that to me.

520
00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:53,561
Speaker 3: I think it was just.

521
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: Basically I was treading water basically because I knew that

522
00:23:58,481 --> 00:24:02,001
Speaker 2: had I left, there was something was going to happen.

523
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,561
Speaker 1: None of your friends were telling me to leave, that

524
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,681
Speaker 1: they ever see him like get angry at you.

525
00:24:07,321 --> 00:24:10,241
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was when we moved to our last house,

526
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 2: which we bought one of my friends clear seeing a

527
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 2: couple of incidents, and there was one particular incident where

528
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,241
Speaker 2: I remember We're gone Christmas shopping. You know, I was

529
00:24:21,281 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 2: allowed to go shopping, especially in the day, so we

530
00:24:23,681 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 2: were going. We were going off shopping to Cardiff to

531
00:24:25,721 --> 00:24:28,321
Speaker 2: go and buy Christmas presents for they were kids. And

532
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 2: I sat in the car and my phone started ringing

533
00:24:30,921 --> 00:24:33,321
Speaker 2: and it was a girl called Nicki who was a

534
00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:35,641
Speaker 2: police officer and her Nan used to live next door

535
00:24:35,681 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 2: to us.

536
00:24:36,441 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 3: And I was like, oh, I Nicky, you all right?

537
00:24:37,961 --> 00:24:39,481
Speaker 3: She goes, Yeah, she goes. Rachel goes.

538
00:24:40,001 --> 00:24:42,001
Speaker 2: The police want to speak to Darren. I'm like, why

539
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,561
Speaker 2: she goes. I'm not quite sure. She goes, but he

540
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 2: either comes down you're or they're coming up to the

541
00:24:46,681 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 2: house more panded, and I thinking, oh, fuck, I don't

542
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,961
Speaker 2: need this now, you know, I don't need any.

543
00:24:51,761 --> 00:24:54,161
Speaker 3: Of this ship. So I said, oh, hang on a minute,

544
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,441
Speaker 3: I said, he's in front of me in the land

545
00:24:55,561 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 3: rove working on it.

546
00:24:56,521 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 2: I said, let me, let me go and give him

547
00:24:58,481 --> 00:25:00,241
Speaker 2: the phone. So anyway, I went up to the land

548
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:03,681
Speaker 2: rover so I not knocked on the windows. He's in there,

549
00:25:03,721 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 2: and I said, and he's I open. He goes, I goes, oh,

550
00:25:06,241 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 2: it's Nikki on the phone. He goes Nikki, who copper Nikki.

551
00:25:09,041 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: I goes, yeah, I goes my last I give him

552
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,961
Speaker 2: my phone. I went back to the car and Claire goes, oh,

553
00:25:14,001 --> 00:25:15,881
Speaker 2: what's that a bit? I said, I have no idea.

554
00:25:16,681 --> 00:25:19,761
Speaker 2: So with that, then it comes fucking psychobill out the side.

555
00:25:19,801 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 2: The land drover comes pounding up to the side of

556
00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 2: my car through the phone in, grabbed me by the hair,

557
00:25:26,321 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 2: started ragging me in the car, knocked off the mirror,

558
00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:34,801
Speaker 2: the rearview mirror off clear, screaming and saying to me,

559
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,041
Speaker 2: don't you ever fucking phone the police on me again?

560
00:25:37,241 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 2: Nothing to do with this, mind. This is totally different

561
00:25:40,001 --> 00:25:42,041
Speaker 2: because he had to go down the police station then,

562
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,801
Speaker 2: so he was taking it on me. So I went absolutly.

563
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 2: So I just reversed the car and drove off like

564
00:25:47,921 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 2: a netter. I mean, I was so I think it

565
00:25:49,921 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: was because I was embarrassed because my friend was sat

566
00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 2: in the car as well. So I literally went round

567
00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: the estate, which is a full circle. I mounted the

568
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 2: pavement then and she's like, why are you doing? I goes,

569
00:26:00,801 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 2: I've had enough for that fucker treatment like this, you know.

570
00:26:03,961 --> 00:26:06,281
Speaker 2: And I went in the house, run up the stairs

571
00:26:06,521 --> 00:26:09,321
Speaker 2: and he was sat on the bed crying then because

572
00:26:09,321 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 2: what he just then to me? So I'm like, I go,

573
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: I go in autopilot. Now I goes right, fucking wash

574
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:17,561
Speaker 2: your face. You, I goes fucking crying. I goes you

575
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,481
Speaker 2: get your ass doayn the police station, I said, and

576
00:26:19,561 --> 00:26:20,881
Speaker 2: fucking sorgery.

577
00:26:20,561 --> 00:26:21,601
Speaker 3: And off I went shopping.

578
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: It was almost like I was constantly in either combat

579
00:26:26,721 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 2: combat mode or like on some sort of autopilot, and

580
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,001
Speaker 2: then off we went shopping as if nothing has happened.

581
00:26:34,001 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: But my friend clear was covered in my hair. She

582
00:26:35,801 --> 00:26:38,041
Speaker 2: was sort of like pulling all bits of hair off her.

583
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,801
Speaker 2: But I sort of I think I programmed myself for

584
00:26:42,921 --> 00:26:45,161
Speaker 2: this constant battle every day.

585
00:26:45,201 --> 00:26:49,041
Speaker 1: And it sounded like every time he did something to you,

586
00:26:49,801 --> 00:26:53,081
Speaker 1: he would get emotional to get your attention back.

587
00:26:53,721 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, they become the victim then, So what happens is

588
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 2: perpetrators of abuse.

589
00:26:57,681 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 3: They'll abuse their partner and what is that?

590
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,521
Speaker 2: What is the head fuck, Neil is they're the ones

591
00:27:02,561 --> 00:27:05,161
Speaker 2: that abuse you, but they're also the ones that comfort you.

592
00:27:05,481 --> 00:27:07,561
Speaker 3: So you don't know whether you're coming or going.

593
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,721
Speaker 2: You know, you'll you'll have a slap across the face

594
00:27:09,761 --> 00:27:11,881
Speaker 2: wen day, then you'll have a bunch of flowers three

595
00:27:11,921 --> 00:27:12,481
Speaker 2: hours later.

596
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 3: It's just like it is just a total leaffot. And

597
00:27:16,921 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 3: that is constantly what it's like.

598
00:27:18,521 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 2: And I say, you know, victims and survivors are the

599
00:27:21,441 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 2: toughest people you will ever meet, ever meet, because every

600
00:27:25,201 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: day they're like soldiers strategically thinking in that household, how

601
00:27:29,761 --> 00:27:31,561
Speaker 2: am I going to keep myself safe? And how am

602
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,360
Speaker 2: I going to keep my kids safe? And you're just

603
00:27:33,481 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 2: constantly just thinking, thinking, thinking.

604
00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: Well, before he came into the salon and did what

605
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,761
Speaker 1: he did, was there a time before that that you

606
00:27:45,041 --> 00:27:48,441
Speaker 1: could you can pinpoint to say that was the most

607
00:27:48,441 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 1: scariest point.

608
00:27:50,681 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 2: I think it was probably the the the incident, which

609
00:27:54,961 --> 00:27:58,121
Speaker 2: was on the ninth of July in twenty eleven, and

610
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: we'd had a ray which had built up over two days,

611
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 2: and he had gone and slept up with sis. It

612
00:28:05,521 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: was a Friday night, and then he came back earlier

613
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,360
Speaker 2: hours of the morning, and I was getting up on

614
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 2: a Saturday because I was a hairdresser and going to

615
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,521
Speaker 2: do hair for a wedding. And I can remember him

616
00:28:18,561 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: coming into the bedroom and walking around the bottom of

617
00:28:22,801 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 2: the bed, almost liking some sort of trance. And I'm

618
00:28:27,681 --> 00:28:31,721
Speaker 2: feeling really a nerve now by how his actions are,

619
00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:35,001
Speaker 2: and he walked around the bed, and then I went

620
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,561
Speaker 2: downstairs to make a cup of coffee. Anyway, he was

621
00:28:38,601 --> 00:28:41,961
Speaker 2: sort of like, come behind me, and I remember him

622
00:28:42,001 --> 00:28:44,641
Speaker 2: saying to me, and it was almost like demonic, in

623
00:28:44,681 --> 00:28:46,521
Speaker 2: a demonic voice. He's like, you know, what are you

624
00:28:46,601 --> 00:28:49,281
Speaker 2: going to fucking do about it? Then that sort of thing.

625
00:28:49,721 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: And I was like, and I don't know why. I

626
00:28:51,481 --> 00:28:52,641
Speaker 2: just said, do you know why? So I've had a

627
00:28:52,641 --> 00:28:54,641
Speaker 2: fucking gut full of you. I said, I'm going to

628
00:28:54,761 --> 00:28:57,321
Speaker 2: leave you. That's what I'm going to do. And I

629
00:28:57,441 --> 00:28:59,361
Speaker 2: was crying, and I was looking at my garden. It

630
00:28:59,361 --> 00:29:01,881
Speaker 2: was a lovely sunny day. And as I walked into

631
00:29:01,881 --> 00:29:04,321
Speaker 2: the kitchen, then I felt his hands around my neck

632
00:29:04,761 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 2: and he started shaking me really ferociously and strangling me

633
00:29:09,801 --> 00:29:11,881
Speaker 2: and both of my kids were walking up by the

634
00:29:11,961 --> 00:29:14,121
Speaker 2: sound that I was making, and both of my kids

635
00:29:14,121 --> 00:29:17,441
Speaker 2: said they thought that there was a pig squealing downstairs,

636
00:29:17,441 --> 00:29:19,521
Speaker 2: and it was the noise I was making. So my

637
00:29:19,601 --> 00:29:23,241
Speaker 2: oldest boy was doing a silent nine nine nine call,

638
00:29:23,281 --> 00:29:26,041
Speaker 2: and Jack came down with the baseball bat. And I

639
00:29:26,041 --> 00:29:28,121
Speaker 2: can remember being on the floor then and looking up

640
00:29:28,161 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 2: and seeing both of the kids in the room. Darren

641
00:29:31,361 --> 00:29:33,761
Speaker 2: realized they were in the room as well, and then

642
00:29:34,041 --> 00:29:35,561
Speaker 2: all of a sudden he let me go and burst

643
00:29:35,561 --> 00:29:37,881
Speaker 2: out crying because he wanted to be the victim again then,

644
00:29:37,961 --> 00:29:40,161
Speaker 2: you know, and this is what they do. And then

645
00:29:41,121 --> 00:29:43,401
Speaker 2: both of the kids then went back back up in

646
00:29:43,441 --> 00:29:47,121
Speaker 2: their rooms. And I'm thinking to myself, oh my god,

647
00:29:47,161 --> 00:29:49,801
Speaker 2: this is on another level. Now, you know, this is

648
00:29:49,841 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: on another level. And then he started pulling me up

649
00:29:52,561 --> 00:29:56,521
Speaker 2: the stairs by my wrists, and I knew exactly what

650
00:29:56,641 --> 00:29:58,921
Speaker 2: he was going to do, because nobody knows that perpetrator

651
00:29:58,961 --> 00:30:01,641
Speaker 2: better than the victim slash survivor. Right, so he's pulling

652
00:30:01,681 --> 00:30:05,641
Speaker 2: me up the stairs. Now, Darren always had an asshlo weapons, right,

653
00:30:05,681 --> 00:30:11,441
Speaker 2: He had trencheons, stunguns, telescopic trencheons, hunting knives, flick knives,

654
00:30:11,681 --> 00:30:15,521
Speaker 2: thumb screws, handcuffs, you name it, you know, probably the

655
00:30:15,561 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 2: full murder kit in his draw and I remembered him

656
00:30:19,521 --> 00:30:23,041
Speaker 2: trying to grab out of his drawer a knife and

657
00:30:23,081 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: I managed to break free, and I knew he was

658
00:30:25,481 --> 00:30:27,761
Speaker 2: gonna become even more of a victim and cut his

659
00:30:27,761 --> 00:30:31,441
Speaker 2: wrists and I looked at him with that. Jack came

660
00:30:31,441 --> 00:30:33,801
Speaker 2: out on the landing. He goes, what's he doing? And

661
00:30:33,841 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 2: I looked at him. I said, go on, slit your

662
00:30:35,481 --> 00:30:37,161
Speaker 2: wrist in front of your sixteen year olds, and then

663
00:30:37,201 --> 00:30:38,921
Speaker 2: thinking that I would shame in, and he's going to

664
00:30:39,001 --> 00:30:40,961
Speaker 2: put it back in the draw. By the time I

665
00:30:41,001 --> 00:30:44,641
Speaker 2: got down the bottom of the stairs, Jack shated, oh no,

666
00:30:44,801 --> 00:30:47,001
Speaker 2: mummy's done it, and he actually cut his wrists in

667
00:30:47,041 --> 00:30:49,201
Speaker 2: front of Jack. And at that point I thought, if

668
00:30:49,201 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: he's capable of doing that in front of his somewhere

669
00:30:51,201 --> 00:30:53,401
Speaker 2: else is he capable of doing And that was when

670
00:30:53,441 --> 00:30:56,281
Speaker 2: the fear of staying with him became greater than the

671
00:30:56,281 --> 00:30:57,641
Speaker 2: fear of leaving him.

672
00:30:58,081 --> 00:31:00,001
Speaker 1: It's funny you say that, And I said this to

673
00:31:00,041 --> 00:31:03,081
Speaker 1: someone else. I did an interview with that. I had

674
00:31:03,081 --> 00:31:07,121
Speaker 1: to watch my mum get abused by my dad, and

675
00:31:07,161 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: I'm like your son. I was trying to stop it

676
00:31:09,481 --> 00:31:10,561
Speaker 1: all the time, you know what I mean, get in

677
00:31:10,601 --> 00:31:14,201
Speaker 1: the middle of it. And sometimes, you know, I wasn't

678
00:31:14,201 --> 00:31:16,641
Speaker 1: that old and I wasn't that big, and my dad

679
00:31:16,801 --> 00:31:18,681
Speaker 1: was into night club, so I used to get thrown

680
00:31:18,681 --> 00:31:20,561
Speaker 1: around every time. I used to try and stop it,

681
00:31:20,881 --> 00:31:23,001
Speaker 1: and I'd yelled, leave my mom alone, leave my mum alone.

682
00:31:23,481 --> 00:31:27,121
Speaker 1: And I remember watching her. I remember being in ten

683
00:31:27,241 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: Reef one night and we were back in the hotel

684
00:31:29,561 --> 00:31:33,401
Speaker 1: room and I think it just happened because someone gave

685
00:31:33,441 --> 00:31:38,481
Speaker 1: my mum a compliment and it just erupted. And I remember,

686
00:31:39,881 --> 00:31:42,601
Speaker 1: and to this day still remember I was in the

687
00:31:42,641 --> 00:31:45,401
Speaker 1: hotel room. I ran between them. He picked me up

688
00:31:45,441 --> 00:31:49,121
Speaker 1: and threw me against the wall, and then within an

689
00:31:49,121 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: hour it's like it never happened, you know what I mean.

690
00:31:52,001 --> 00:31:55,161
Speaker 1: He was crying on the floor, like by the wall,

691
00:31:55,801 --> 00:31:58,801
Speaker 1: and it's just like you know, and I as a kid,

692
00:31:58,841 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: I used to kind of how would you say, you

693
00:32:01,481 --> 00:32:04,401
Speaker 1: banish them feelings away, you don't want to talk about them,

694
00:32:04,481 --> 00:32:08,801
Speaker 1: it never happen. But yeah, that's it's exactly the same

695
00:32:08,841 --> 00:32:09,721
Speaker 1: as what you went through.

696
00:32:09,961 --> 00:32:11,761
Speaker 3: And they're all the same Neil.

697
00:32:11,761 --> 00:32:14,241
Speaker 2: They're all the same, and every victim survivor you will

698
00:32:14,241 --> 00:32:17,561
Speaker 2: speak to will have the same theme. It's almost like

699
00:32:17,641 --> 00:32:20,601
Speaker 2: they've been given a manual and they all read this

700
00:32:20,681 --> 00:32:24,081
Speaker 2: manual and then they all play these different personas, you know,

701
00:32:24,441 --> 00:32:27,321
Speaker 2: like the charm and the headworker, you know, all these

702
00:32:27,321 --> 00:32:31,921
Speaker 2: different characters that make up the controlling dominator in your relationship.

703
00:32:31,921 --> 00:32:33,761
Speaker 3: And that is exactly what they do.

704
00:32:33,881 --> 00:32:37,241
Speaker 2: As soon as they see the damage they've done, they

705
00:32:37,281 --> 00:32:40,121
Speaker 2: all become a victim. They all threaten to kill themselves

706
00:32:40,121 --> 00:32:43,641
Speaker 2: because they can without you all the time, you know.

707
00:32:43,761 --> 00:32:46,601
Speaker 2: But it's it is, it's it's it's honestly, it's just

708
00:32:46,721 --> 00:32:48,361
Speaker 2: that theme that they all follow.

709
00:32:49,081 --> 00:32:52,361
Speaker 1: Let's let's go through twenty eleven. Yeah, when you walk

710
00:32:52,441 --> 00:32:55,921
Speaker 1: into your salon the lead up to that, Like, what

711
00:32:56,001 --> 00:32:57,561
Speaker 1: do you think triggered that?

712
00:32:58,681 --> 00:33:02,481
Speaker 2: Okay, so I can tell you exactly what triggered it. So,

713
00:33:02,481 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 2: so there was a six week period from him stranger

714
00:33:05,281 --> 00:33:08,401
Speaker 2: me and then the incident when he walked into the salon,

715
00:33:09,281 --> 00:33:13,121
Speaker 2: and I can't and I've been very open about it,

716
00:33:13,161 --> 00:33:16,521
Speaker 2: and I can't explain why I done what I done.

717
00:33:17,041 --> 00:33:19,921
Speaker 2: So I can remember about two weeks after this incident,

718
00:33:20,081 --> 00:33:22,401
Speaker 2: So i'd gone to the solicter. So this happened on

719
00:33:22,481 --> 00:33:24,521
Speaker 2: the ninth of July. I was in the solicitors filing

720
00:33:24,561 --> 00:33:27,561
Speaker 2: for divorce. Right, something went off in my head and said,

721
00:33:27,881 --> 00:33:29,721
Speaker 2: I have got to try and get out of this,

722
00:33:30,081 --> 00:33:31,881
Speaker 2: whatever it takes, I've got to get out of it.

723
00:33:32,401 --> 00:33:36,441
Speaker 2: So I literally far for divorce. Told the solicitor, she goes,

724
00:33:36,481 --> 00:33:39,401
Speaker 2: You've got plenty of reasons to you know, Darren one

725
00:33:39,521 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 2: playing ball. He's not going to sign any of the

726
00:33:41,241 --> 00:33:43,681
Speaker 2: paperwork because he already told me. He told Jack, you

727
00:33:43,721 --> 00:33:46,321
Speaker 2: know that I'm gonna gonna win mamma back. You know,

728
00:33:46,441 --> 00:33:48,761
Speaker 2: I'm gonna gonna who back because he was staying up

729
00:33:48,801 --> 00:33:52,321
Speaker 2: with his sister, so and he then I gave a

730
00:33:52,401 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: lengthy historical statement to the police.

731
00:33:54,841 --> 00:33:56,641
Speaker 3: It was pages and pages long.

732
00:33:57,121 --> 00:34:00,081
Speaker 2: And he was arrested for the strangulation and he was

733
00:34:00,161 --> 00:34:02,681
Speaker 2: charged with common assault, which is why I campaigned to

734
00:34:02,681 --> 00:34:06,641
Speaker 2: get non failed strangulation standalone affect. So he was charged

735
00:34:06,681 --> 00:34:08,521
Speaker 2: with that. He was bailed not to come to the

736
00:34:08,561 --> 00:34:11,681
Speaker 2: marital home. He'd actually broken into the house at some

737
00:34:11,841 --> 00:34:14,081
Speaker 2: point because the kids had said they never let him in,

738
00:34:14,241 --> 00:34:16,601
Speaker 2: and I had the locks change, so I don't know

739
00:34:16,641 --> 00:34:18,561
Speaker 2: how he managed to get in the house and he

740
00:34:18,641 --> 00:34:21,081
Speaker 2: bleached all my clothes in the wardrobe, so I knew

741
00:34:21,161 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 2: he'd been in the house. And for some bizarre reason,

742
00:34:26,041 --> 00:34:29,881
Speaker 2: I can remember two weeks into that six week period

743
00:34:30,481 --> 00:34:32,721
Speaker 2: and les have fact just at like a mental sort

744
00:34:32,761 --> 00:34:34,401
Speaker 2: of I don't know what it was, Neil. Anyway, I

745
00:34:35,041 --> 00:34:37,041
Speaker 2: I text my sister and I said, in fact, do

746
00:34:37,041 --> 00:34:39,921
Speaker 2: you fancy come to Cardiff? And she said, well shopping?

747
00:34:39,961 --> 00:34:41,841
Speaker 2: And I said no for a night out? And She's like,

748
00:34:42,361 --> 00:34:45,881
Speaker 2: what fuck off night out? Because she knew I won allowed,

749
00:34:46,281 --> 00:34:48,881
Speaker 2: And I said no, I said, I've let that's it.

750
00:34:49,001 --> 00:34:49,321
Speaker 3: Natalie.

751
00:34:49,321 --> 00:34:51,161
Speaker 2: I said that this is the time I've left now,

752
00:34:51,201 --> 00:34:54,361
Speaker 2: because she's seen witness loads of incidents within him strangling

753
00:34:54,361 --> 00:34:56,761
Speaker 2: mat side, they were berga van and you know, chucking

754
00:34:56,761 --> 00:34:59,801
Speaker 2: the generator down the docks in Newport, people seeing his

755
00:34:59,921 --> 00:35:02,961
Speaker 2: constant behavior towards me. And I said, no, that's it.

756
00:35:02,961 --> 00:35:04,521
Speaker 2: She goes, well, you've let her goes? Yes, she goes

757
00:35:04,521 --> 00:35:07,041
Speaker 2: when and I said, you know, two weeks ago, so

758
00:35:07,161 --> 00:35:08,961
Speaker 2: I got my god goes, yeah, I come to Cardiff.

759
00:35:08,961 --> 00:35:10,601
Speaker 2: So I thought, right, go to Cardiff. I was safer

760
00:35:10,641 --> 00:35:12,961
Speaker 2: in Cardiff because he knows all the dorman in you

761
00:35:13,081 --> 00:35:17,161
Speaker 2: put so off. We go to Cardiff, you know, I

762
00:35:17,201 --> 00:35:19,001
Speaker 2: was like a few drinks day and you and I. Anyway,

763
00:35:19,041 --> 00:35:21,641
Speaker 2: so I remember going in one pub, not being out

764
00:35:21,681 --> 00:35:24,521
Speaker 2: for years and didn't realize it was a gay bar.

765
00:35:24,641 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 2: So straight away it got chatted up by this woman.

766
00:35:26,521 --> 00:35:29,521
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, fucking Alice, is this is freaking me out now?

767
00:35:29,681 --> 00:35:31,481
Speaker 3: Right? So I said, come on im, I'll go in

768
00:35:31,481 --> 00:35:32,321
Speaker 3: the pub next door.

769
00:35:32,401 --> 00:35:33,961
Speaker 2: So we went in the pub next door and the

770
00:35:34,041 --> 00:35:37,681
Speaker 2: rugby was on, but it was still fairly quieted there.

771
00:35:37,761 --> 00:35:39,841
Speaker 2: So we're minding our own business having a drink. And

772
00:35:39,841 --> 00:35:42,281
Speaker 2: with that, these group of lads come in. They were

773
00:35:42,321 --> 00:35:44,521
Speaker 2: like in their early twenties and I was like thirty

774
00:35:44,601 --> 00:35:47,761
Speaker 2: nine at the time. And anyway, they were chatting us

775
00:35:47,841 --> 00:35:49,721
Speaker 2: up and I said, oh listen, I goes listen, love,

776
00:35:49,761 --> 00:35:52,081
Speaker 2: I go go, I got a son, probably your age

777
00:35:52,281 --> 00:35:54,001
Speaker 2: now you have And I said, no, honestly I have.

778
00:35:54,481 --> 00:35:56,681
Speaker 2: So anyway, I said to my sister, I goes, fucking all,

779
00:35:56,801 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 2: is this what is this what I'd been missing? I said,

780
00:35:58,441 --> 00:36:00,361
Speaker 2: because I don't need this in my life, you know.

781
00:36:01,081 --> 00:36:04,921
Speaker 2: And with that, with that then I text somebody that

782
00:36:05,041 --> 00:36:08,921
Speaker 2: i'd known for Donkeys' yus who was a solicitor, and

783
00:36:09,001 --> 00:36:10,641
Speaker 2: I text him and I said, and he was a

784
00:36:10,721 --> 00:36:12,361
Speaker 2: cad if, but I said, listen, were I on a

785
00:36:12,441 --> 00:36:14,801
Speaker 2: night out? I said, you know, where can we go?

786
00:36:15,121 --> 00:36:17,361
Speaker 2: Me and my sister. He's like, what the fucking hell

787
00:36:17,401 --> 00:36:20,201
Speaker 2: are you doing out? You know, response for everybody? What

788
00:36:20,281 --> 00:36:22,081
Speaker 2: are you doing out? And I said, oh, you know,

789
00:36:22,081 --> 00:36:23,881
Speaker 2: I've left that, it's all come to my house. So

790
00:36:23,961 --> 00:36:27,761
Speaker 2: we ended up going to this guy's house and I

791
00:36:27,841 --> 00:36:29,801
Speaker 2: ended up my sister went home, and I ended up

792
00:36:29,841 --> 00:36:31,681
Speaker 2: sleeping the night there, you know, And I did sleep

793
00:36:31,681 --> 00:36:32,201
Speaker 2: with him, you know.

794
00:36:32,521 --> 00:36:33,401
Speaker 3: And the next day.

795
00:36:34,881 --> 00:36:37,081
Speaker 2: The next day, I woke up and I thought I

796
00:36:37,161 --> 00:36:41,841
Speaker 2: felt liberated, but I also knew for me, neo, it

797
00:36:41,961 --> 00:36:45,841
Speaker 2: was almost like I can never go back because I

798
00:36:45,921 --> 00:36:49,041
Speaker 2: got morals and scruples, right, I'd filed for divorce. As

799
00:36:49,041 --> 00:36:52,041
Speaker 2: far as I was concerned, this is going to go ahead. Yes,

800
00:36:52,081 --> 00:36:55,001
Speaker 2: I've had this one night stand, total character, but that

801
00:36:55,161 --> 00:36:57,561
Speaker 2: freed me then from going back to him. So I

802
00:36:57,681 --> 00:37:00,521
Speaker 2: knew that I could not, even though I meant she

803
00:37:00,681 --> 00:37:03,361
Speaker 2: tried to win me back. In my head, I'd been

804
00:37:03,401 --> 00:37:06,401
Speaker 2: with another man, so I couldn't. And he found out

805
00:37:06,441 --> 00:37:10,641
Speaker 2: about that. But what is what is ironic? Mind he

806
00:37:10,761 --> 00:37:13,081
Speaker 2: found out about that, But after the shooting, I found

807
00:37:13,081 --> 00:37:15,721
Speaker 2: out that he'd fathered a son while we were together,

808
00:37:15,801 --> 00:37:16,921
Speaker 2: who was younger than Jack.

809
00:37:17,761 --> 00:37:18,361
Speaker 1: Bloody hell.

810
00:37:19,121 --> 00:37:22,041
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's you know, it's you.

811
00:37:23,641 --> 00:37:25,761
Speaker 2: I think there was a lot of pressure put on

812
00:37:25,881 --> 00:37:29,001
Speaker 2: somebody that knew what had gone on, and they just

813
00:37:29,321 --> 00:37:33,641
Speaker 2: probably protecting themselves, you know, and just just said about it.

814
00:37:33,681 --> 00:37:35,801
Speaker 3: And apparently I believe that.

815
00:37:35,801 --> 00:37:37,521
Speaker 2: Is what tipped him over the edge, even though we

816
00:37:37,521 --> 00:37:40,001
Speaker 2: were shagging around most weekends on the door, you know,

817
00:37:40,161 --> 00:37:42,721
Speaker 2: because because I had done this now, even though in

818
00:37:42,801 --> 00:37:47,121
Speaker 2: my eyes were separated, I'd already filed for divorce. That's it, mate,

819
00:37:47,201 --> 00:37:49,521
Speaker 2: you know, I don't care. We're done now sort of thing.

820
00:37:50,401 --> 00:37:52,281
Speaker 2: And that's what it was. It was like, right, you know,

821
00:37:52,961 --> 00:37:54,721
Speaker 2: if I can have you, no fucking I'll have you.

822
00:37:55,281 --> 00:37:59,801
Speaker 1: So that okay. So that day when you're you're in

823
00:37:59,841 --> 00:38:05,481
Speaker 1: the salon, talk me through when he's walked in, you

824
00:38:05,561 --> 00:38:07,561
Speaker 1: know what I mean, and did what he did.

825
00:38:08,041 --> 00:38:11,401
Speaker 2: Yeah, So there was like, like I said, this build

826
00:38:11,481 --> 00:38:13,761
Speaker 2: up of it, and I remember I shouldn't have been

827
00:38:13,801 --> 00:38:16,681
Speaker 2: working that Friday. It was Friday the nineteenth. Yeah, it

828
00:38:16,761 --> 00:38:18,881
Speaker 2: was Friday the nineteenth of August twenty length. But I'm

829
00:38:18,921 --> 00:38:21,721
Speaker 2: glad I was working that day because had I been home,

830
00:38:21,761 --> 00:38:23,201
Speaker 2: it could have been a different kettle fish.

831
00:38:23,441 --> 00:38:27,001
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because we were in a public place.

832
00:38:27,041 --> 00:38:27,201
Speaker 3: Now.

833
00:38:27,241 --> 00:38:29,241
Speaker 2: So after I go to work in the salon, which

834
00:38:29,281 --> 00:38:31,801
Speaker 2: is literally a drive down the hill from where the

835
00:38:31,881 --> 00:38:34,721
Speaker 2: metal home was. Me I moved in the day before,

836
00:38:35,161 --> 00:38:37,321
Speaker 2: so I had been so for surfing at my mems

837
00:38:37,321 --> 00:38:39,161
Speaker 2: because my mother was saying, don't go back, you know,

838
00:38:39,721 --> 00:38:42,721
Speaker 2: to the house, it's not safe. But police then on

839
00:38:42,801 --> 00:38:45,881
Speaker 2: the eighteenth of August coming installed a panic room in

840
00:38:45,921 --> 00:38:51,601
Speaker 2: my house. So basically they double skinned the bedroom door.

841
00:38:52,041 --> 00:38:55,641
Speaker 2: I had two huge metal brackets put on the door frame,

842
00:38:55,881 --> 00:38:57,841
Speaker 2: and I had a piece of metal to go across

843
00:38:57,881 --> 00:39:00,361
Speaker 2: this store that was in case he came to the

844
00:39:00,401 --> 00:39:03,881
Speaker 2: home while they tried to sort of like get him

845
00:39:03,961 --> 00:39:06,561
Speaker 2: sort of locked up because he was on bail and

846
00:39:06,601 --> 00:39:08,761
Speaker 2: he was due back in court on the fourteenth of

847
00:39:08,801 --> 00:39:12,801
Speaker 2: October of that year. So I'm thinking, shit, you know,

848
00:39:12,841 --> 00:39:15,081
Speaker 2: I got you know, I feel like a prisoner now

849
00:39:15,121 --> 00:39:17,841
Speaker 2: because I've got this panic room installed in my house,

850
00:39:19,161 --> 00:39:21,681
Speaker 2: feeling like the police you know, shit now, you know

851
00:39:21,761 --> 00:39:23,841
Speaker 2: they knew exactly what they were dealing with, you know,

852
00:39:23,881 --> 00:39:27,201
Speaker 2: he was very anti police, you know, he had a

853
00:39:27,321 --> 00:39:31,761
Speaker 2: name for himself, and I'm thinking, wow, you know how

854
00:39:31,801 --> 00:39:33,561
Speaker 2: long is this going to go on for? So anyway,

855
00:39:33,561 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 2: I go to work on the Friday and my boss

856
00:39:36,001 --> 00:39:38,201
Speaker 2: says to me, you know how you feeling. I still

857
00:39:38,241 --> 00:39:40,281
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to get rid of psychle Bill, I said.

858
00:39:40,281 --> 00:39:42,281
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know what I'm going to do.

859
00:39:43,081 --> 00:39:44,761
Speaker 2: I said, but I sort of like feel as if

860
00:39:44,961 --> 00:39:47,161
Speaker 2: my life and getting my life back because I was

861
00:39:47,161 --> 00:39:49,161
Speaker 2: back in the home the night before. You know, all right,

862
00:39:49,241 --> 00:39:52,481
Speaker 2: got this bloody panic room. But somebody something's going to

863
00:39:52,521 --> 00:39:54,561
Speaker 2: happen where they're going to protect me. You know, he's

864
00:39:54,601 --> 00:39:56,921
Speaker 2: going to or piss off and leave me alone. And

865
00:39:56,961 --> 00:39:58,721
Speaker 2: I had it in my head for some reason. Then

866
00:39:58,721 --> 00:40:01,881
Speaker 2: he was going to go to his a psychiatrist's appointment

867
00:40:02,161 --> 00:40:04,721
Speaker 2: on that day. So I phoned my sister. I said,

868
00:40:04,761 --> 00:40:06,921
Speaker 2: do me a favor, have a driver where I knew

869
00:40:06,921 --> 00:40:09,841
Speaker 2: that the appointment might be, and see if his land

870
00:40:09,881 --> 00:40:12,681
Speaker 2: drover was there, because he had a very distinctive land drover.

871
00:40:13,761 --> 00:40:16,361
Speaker 2: So anyway, off she goes and she text me back, no,

872
00:40:16,441 --> 00:40:18,801
Speaker 2: there's no sign of it, and I thinking shit, and

873
00:40:18,841 --> 00:40:21,121
Speaker 2: I'd had this not in my stomach all sort of

874
00:40:21,161 --> 00:40:23,601
Speaker 2: morning and even to the point, and I've never experienced

875
00:40:23,601 --> 00:40:25,401
Speaker 2: it before when I was trying to eat something and

876
00:40:25,441 --> 00:40:27,201
Speaker 2: it just wouldn't go down. It was almost like there

877
00:40:27,241 --> 00:40:29,601
Speaker 2: was a huge lump in my throat. Anyway, I was

878
00:40:29,601 --> 00:40:33,361
Speaker 2: doing this lady's here, and I remember Josh, my oldest boy,

879
00:40:33,801 --> 00:40:36,401
Speaker 2: one of his friends Nana, coming in and said, oh,

880
00:40:36,401 --> 00:40:38,641
Speaker 2: how are you, Rachel, And I said. My words to

881
00:40:38,681 --> 00:40:40,521
Speaker 2: her was I'm trying to get rid of Real Moat

882
00:40:40,641 --> 00:40:42,961
Speaker 2: and you know, you might remember the Real Moat story

883
00:40:43,241 --> 00:40:47,041
Speaker 2: in the UK. And with that then I was giving

884
00:40:47,041 --> 00:40:49,601
Speaker 2: this lady a change, and all of a sudden, the

885
00:40:49,641 --> 00:40:52,481
Speaker 2: shop sort of went quite dark, as if there was

886
00:40:52,521 --> 00:40:55,081
Speaker 2: some sort of lorry or something block in the sunlight.

887
00:40:55,161 --> 00:40:57,201
Speaker 2: And as I looked at the door, which was on

888
00:40:57,361 --> 00:41:01,641
Speaker 2: like a corner, I could see Darren behind this door now.

889
00:41:02,201 --> 00:41:04,761
Speaker 2: And as I'm looking at him, he's pushing the door

890
00:41:04,801 --> 00:41:07,001
Speaker 2: open and I can see his hand reaching into this

891
00:41:07,361 --> 00:41:09,001
Speaker 2: bagg he ad in front of him. And as I

892
00:41:09,121 --> 00:41:10,881
Speaker 2: as he's doing this, I can see it's a gun

893
00:41:11,161 --> 00:41:15,401
Speaker 2: and he's pulling out a sawn off shotgun. Don't ask

894
00:41:15,441 --> 00:41:19,161
Speaker 2: me why, I really don't know. I ran towards him,

895
00:41:19,361 --> 00:41:22,201
Speaker 2: and I started trying to fight with him for the gun.

896
00:41:22,321 --> 00:41:24,561
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not going to be any match, you know,

897
00:41:24,601 --> 00:41:27,321
Speaker 2: for somebody like that, But at least I thought, you know,

898
00:41:27,321 --> 00:41:30,521
Speaker 2: if you're gonna I'm gonna die trying. So I'm fighting

899
00:41:30,561 --> 00:41:32,641
Speaker 2: with him for this gun. And then I can remember

900
00:41:32,961 --> 00:41:35,481
Speaker 2: being smashed on the head with the better the gun

901
00:41:36,241 --> 00:41:38,321
Speaker 2: and then falling on the floor. And bearing in mind,

902
00:41:38,361 --> 00:41:41,001
Speaker 2: this was a Friday afternoon, twenty past two in the afternoon,

903
00:41:41,041 --> 00:41:43,041
Speaker 2: a busy friday in a salon. There was a couple

904
00:41:43,081 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 2: of old people under the dryer. There was people sat

905
00:41:45,481 --> 00:41:47,841
Speaker 2: at stations having their head and you know, it's not

906
00:41:47,841 --> 00:41:48,561
Speaker 2: like anyone run.

907
00:41:48,921 --> 00:41:50,521
Speaker 1: Did anyone to try and help you?

908
00:41:50,681 --> 00:41:55,721
Speaker 2: Would you have kneel fair play to you, But yeah,

909
00:41:55,921 --> 00:41:58,321
Speaker 2: there was nobody coming in last shop that day, right,

910
00:41:58,881 --> 00:42:02,401
Speaker 2: So I can remember then being on the floor because

911
00:42:02,401 --> 00:42:03,881
Speaker 2: he tiit me with the better the gun and I'd

912
00:42:03,881 --> 00:42:07,441
Speaker 2: fallen on the floor. And then I can remember pulling

913
00:42:07,481 --> 00:42:09,961
Speaker 2: the reception desk had gone over near me, and I

914
00:42:10,041 --> 00:42:13,281
Speaker 2: pulled that over me, which he butted away. There was

915
00:42:13,321 --> 00:42:15,521
Speaker 2: an old lady on the floor, Connie, who was in

916
00:42:15,521 --> 00:42:18,361
Speaker 2: her nineties, and you know they don't. They don't make

917
00:42:18,441 --> 00:42:20,961
Speaker 2: him like like they used to. And she's shouting at him.

918
00:42:21,001 --> 00:42:23,161
Speaker 3: Go on, get out here, get out here.

919
00:42:23,201 --> 00:42:25,601
Speaker 2: She was shouting, and she was like a war baby,

920
00:42:25,641 --> 00:42:27,441
Speaker 2: you know, she was in the landown you and all that,

921
00:42:27,601 --> 00:42:30,081
Speaker 2: you know, and she was shouting at Darren. And then

922
00:42:30,121 --> 00:42:33,161
Speaker 2: I can remember looking down and seeing the phone off

923
00:42:33,161 --> 00:42:36,521
Speaker 2: the receiver and I grabbed grabbed the phone and I

924
00:42:36,721 --> 00:42:39,241
Speaker 2: felt as weak as a kitten, and I remember trying

925
00:42:39,241 --> 00:42:42,481
Speaker 2: to push the buttons down nine ninety nine and then

926
00:42:42,521 --> 00:42:45,521
Speaker 2: the next thing. Then he was literally stood about four

927
00:42:45,561 --> 00:42:47,801
Speaker 2: foot away from me. I don't know why. I pulled

928
00:42:47,801 --> 00:42:50,201
Speaker 2: my knees up under my chin, so I had the

929
00:42:50,201 --> 00:42:52,041
Speaker 2: presence of mind to do that. So I was almost

930
00:42:52,081 --> 00:42:54,521
Speaker 2: in a feetal position, and I said, for fuck's sake,

931
00:42:54,881 --> 00:42:58,681
Speaker 2: think of Jack, thinking that he'll go in and he'll

932
00:42:58,801 --> 00:43:02,681
Speaker 2: stop what he's doing. And he literally pointed which would

933
00:43:02,681 --> 00:43:04,801
Speaker 2: have been my chest if my legs weren't pulled up,

934
00:43:05,121 --> 00:43:07,561
Speaker 2: and told me he loved me, and pulled the first shot.

935
00:43:08,161 --> 00:43:11,401
Speaker 2: Then I remember it was almost like because people say,

936
00:43:11,401 --> 00:43:13,321
Speaker 2: you know, what did it feel like being shot? And

937
00:43:13,361 --> 00:43:18,281
Speaker 2: I said, it was a huge impact, like the third

938
00:43:19,161 --> 00:43:23,641
Speaker 2: there was no pain, and I remember no pain, no

939
00:43:23,721 --> 00:43:28,121
Speaker 2: pain whatsoever. And I can remember thinking, fuck he shot me.

940
00:43:28,561 --> 00:43:31,561
Speaker 2: And I remember like the gun powder and almost like

941
00:43:31,601 --> 00:43:35,201
Speaker 2: a smoky sort of bit from the gun and really

942
00:43:35,241 --> 00:43:38,721
Speaker 2: smelling gunpowder, and then looking at my jeans and there

943
00:43:38,761 --> 00:43:40,881
Speaker 2: was a huge hole in there, and I can remember

944
00:43:41,001 --> 00:43:45,281
Speaker 2: it was almost like like a bright orange sort of

945
00:43:45,361 --> 00:43:47,321
Speaker 2: liquid that came out and not blood.

946
00:43:47,721 --> 00:43:49,721
Speaker 3: And I'm thinking, fuck, he shot me. Shot me.

947
00:43:50,361 --> 00:43:52,321
Speaker 2: And then the next thing then there was a blast

948
00:43:52,361 --> 00:43:55,441
Speaker 2: to the right of me. Whether he pulled it again

949
00:43:55,641 --> 00:43:59,201
Speaker 2: or you know, it went off. You know, he didn't

950
00:43:59,241 --> 00:44:01,121
Speaker 2: realize he had gone off. It just went off on

951
00:44:01,161 --> 00:44:04,481
Speaker 2: his own, but that missed my head. Then the next

952
00:44:04,481 --> 00:44:07,081
Speaker 2: thing there like remember being on the floor and looking

953
00:44:07,081 --> 00:44:09,121
Speaker 2: to the left of me and seeing this gun on

954
00:44:09,161 --> 00:44:12,361
Speaker 2: the floor which is probably about that long, silver with

955
00:44:12,601 --> 00:44:15,481
Speaker 2: ornate engraving on it, and I remember grabbing the gun.

956
00:44:17,081 --> 00:44:18,921
Speaker 2: There must have been a battle for the gun, because

957
00:44:18,921 --> 00:44:21,881
Speaker 2: I had a watch on and if you google the watch,

958
00:44:21,961 --> 00:44:25,081
Speaker 2: it actually comes up and in every direction of the

959
00:44:25,161 --> 00:44:28,121
Speaker 2: watch face that is scratched, it's almost frosted, and is

960
00:44:28,201 --> 00:44:30,841
Speaker 2: stopped at twenty past two. So that is when the

961
00:44:30,881 --> 00:44:34,961
Speaker 2: battle commenced, you know, And so I I was grabbing

962
00:44:34,961 --> 00:44:36,841
Speaker 2: this gun and he was trying to get the gun

963
00:44:36,881 --> 00:44:39,281
Speaker 2: off me. Then the next thing, then he booted me

964
00:44:39,321 --> 00:44:42,041
Speaker 2: under the chin, and then I can remember him absolutely

965
00:44:42,121 --> 00:44:45,801
Speaker 2: pameline me with punches, kicks, stamps, everything.

966
00:44:46,081 --> 00:44:48,481
Speaker 3: Then the next thing, then he was gone. He was

967
00:44:48,561 --> 00:44:49,481
Speaker 3: just gone from the shop.

968
00:44:56,881 --> 00:45:00,201
Speaker 1: What I don't get is the fact that he's come in. Okay,

969
00:45:00,281 --> 00:45:01,161
Speaker 1: he's come to kill you.

970
00:45:01,281 --> 00:45:06,201
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, oh yeah yeah, But knowing that what I

971
00:45:06,241 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 4: don't get, like he's coming to kill you, But then

972
00:45:10,721 --> 00:45:12,601
Speaker 4: has he panicked or did he did he not.

973
00:45:12,561 --> 00:45:15,601
Speaker 1: Want to kill you? Does it to beat you up?

974
00:45:15,641 --> 00:45:19,041
Speaker 1: How he did? And then run off? But no one's

975
00:45:19,041 --> 00:45:23,921
Speaker 1: actually trying to stop him anyway? Has he done what

976
00:45:24,041 --> 00:45:26,601
Speaker 1: he knew? Nobody does with you and gone' this I've

977
00:45:26,641 --> 00:45:29,881
Speaker 1: done wrong. I need to get away and cry again.

978
00:45:31,001 --> 00:45:33,801
Speaker 2: And I can tell you exactly what he'd have thought, right,

979
00:45:33,841 --> 00:45:38,321
Speaker 2: because Darren was very methodical, right, so he would have

980
00:45:38,401 --> 00:45:42,321
Speaker 2: planned and if I look back now, I should have known.

981
00:45:42,921 --> 00:45:44,161
Speaker 1: Really did you know he had a gun?

982
00:45:45,121 --> 00:45:45,281
Speaker 3: Oh?

983
00:45:45,321 --> 00:45:47,281
Speaker 2: He had a two two pistol and he didn't have

984
00:45:47,281 --> 00:45:49,641
Speaker 2: a firearms license, So we had an illegal gun years

985
00:45:49,681 --> 00:45:51,561
Speaker 2: ago and an arsenal of weapons that went to prison

986
00:45:51,561 --> 00:45:54,441
Speaker 2: for it. You know, you google Darren Williams arslal weapons

987
00:45:54,481 --> 00:45:57,161
Speaker 2: and it comes up. So he'd already been done for

988
00:45:57,201 --> 00:45:59,801
Speaker 2: a firearm. So all these services had dealt with us,

989
00:45:59,921 --> 00:46:03,441
Speaker 2: knew what a job he was. Okay, but this was

990
00:46:05,161 --> 00:46:08,721
Speaker 2: given to him. We still haven't sourced it yet, but

991
00:46:08,881 --> 00:46:13,081
Speaker 2: it wasn't his gun, so for me, I know Darren's thinking,

992
00:46:13,241 --> 00:46:15,281
Speaker 2: so he would have planned this, which he did.

993
00:46:15,641 --> 00:46:16,441
Speaker 3: The day before.

994
00:46:16,721 --> 00:46:19,361
Speaker 2: The dogs were still at the house and his friend

995
00:46:19,401 --> 00:46:21,481
Speaker 2: come and took the dogs and said, Darren's giving me

996
00:46:21,521 --> 00:46:22,041
Speaker 2: the dogs.

997
00:46:22,841 --> 00:46:23,721
Speaker 3: I thinking, okay.

998
00:46:24,001 --> 00:46:26,241
Speaker 2: Then he said, can I have his winch off the

999
00:46:26,281 --> 00:46:29,161
Speaker 2: land Rover which was in the shed, So I gave

1000
00:46:29,201 --> 00:46:32,361
Speaker 2: him that. So basically Darren's tying up all loose nds.

1001
00:46:32,441 --> 00:46:35,601
Speaker 2: I later found out that he phoned a previous partner

1002
00:46:36,041 --> 00:46:38,521
Speaker 2: and apologized for the way he treated her, because, like

1003
00:46:38,561 --> 00:46:40,761
Speaker 2: I said, he was a serial perpetrator. He had an

1004
00:46:40,761 --> 00:46:45,881
Speaker 2: injunction on him years ago after assaulting this person, and

1005
00:46:46,241 --> 00:46:49,041
Speaker 2: he apologized to her for the way he treated her.

1006
00:46:49,281 --> 00:46:51,321
Speaker 2: So he was sort of tying up loose ends. And

1007
00:46:51,441 --> 00:46:54,041
Speaker 2: Darren had been to prison years ago for the firearms.

1008
00:46:54,401 --> 00:46:56,681
Speaker 2: Darren didn't like prison. He hated prison.

1009
00:46:56,881 --> 00:46:57,281
Speaker 3: Okay.

1010
00:46:57,561 --> 00:47:00,721
Speaker 2: So Darren's thinking would have been I'm not going to

1011
00:47:00,761 --> 00:47:03,721
Speaker 2: prison for what I'm going to do, So he would

1012
00:47:03,761 --> 00:47:07,441
Speaker 2: have said to himself, I got a time limit to

1013
00:47:07,521 --> 00:47:10,961
Speaker 2: go in killer, leave the scene before I'm caught, to

1014
00:47:11,001 --> 00:47:13,921
Speaker 2: go and take my own life. And I know that

1015
00:47:14,561 --> 00:47:17,601
Speaker 2: a friend of mine, and it's only way after the sea,

1016
00:47:17,761 --> 00:47:20,721
Speaker 2: after the events, that you find little things out that

1017
00:47:20,841 --> 00:47:25,521
Speaker 2: my friend who works in the National Statistics Office in Wales,

1018
00:47:25,921 --> 00:47:28,561
Speaker 2: and she said one of her friends used to walk

1019
00:47:28,601 --> 00:47:32,121
Speaker 2: her dog every day along the canal and she had

1020
00:47:32,161 --> 00:47:35,281
Speaker 2: found in a in a bush where the dog was

1021
00:47:35,361 --> 00:47:38,881
Speaker 2: a load of discarded blue rope, and it was not

1022
00:47:39,041 --> 00:47:42,281
Speaker 2: far from where Darren had set up his place to

1023
00:47:42,401 --> 00:47:46,041
Speaker 2: hang from the tree, So that would have been set

1024
00:47:46,121 --> 00:47:48,081
Speaker 2: up days prior to that, because.

1025
00:47:47,761 --> 00:47:49,961
Speaker 3: There's no way Darren would have gone to prison.

1026
00:47:50,001 --> 00:47:52,641
Speaker 2: And I absolutely strongly believed that they would have been

1027
00:47:52,681 --> 00:47:56,601
Speaker 2: planned b somewhere else. Had Plan A failed for him

1028
00:47:56,641 --> 00:47:58,681
Speaker 2: to take his own life. So he either come in

1029
00:47:58,681 --> 00:48:01,441
Speaker 2: that shop thinking, right, I've got two minutes before the

1030
00:48:01,481 --> 00:48:03,921
Speaker 2: police a year or four minutes, so I've got to

1031
00:48:03,921 --> 00:48:06,521
Speaker 2: be in and out. And I think because I ran

1032
00:48:06,601 --> 00:48:10,201
Speaker 2: towards him, which is something he probably wasn't expecting because

1033
00:48:10,241 --> 00:48:14,601
Speaker 2: most people do run away or freeze, and because I

1034
00:48:14,721 --> 00:48:17,801
Speaker 2: ran towards him, that put him on the back foot.

1035
00:48:18,201 --> 00:48:21,681
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got to admit that photo that you sent

1036
00:48:21,761 --> 00:48:25,601
Speaker 1: me of you, of your leg, your name, that is

1037
00:48:25,641 --> 00:48:28,601
Speaker 1: the most gruesome picture I've ever seen.

1038
00:48:29,081 --> 00:48:31,601
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong that what

1039
00:48:31,681 --> 00:48:32,041
Speaker 3: that was.

1040
00:48:32,081 --> 00:48:34,881
Speaker 2: When I was on the table, I mean the first hospital,

1041
00:48:35,521 --> 00:48:38,081
Speaker 2: I can remember the surgeon saying to me, you know,

1042
00:48:38,161 --> 00:48:40,041
Speaker 2: do you really want a leg that don't work? And

1043
00:48:40,361 --> 00:48:42,641
Speaker 2: I was, obviously I on the fucking morphine and I'm

1044
00:48:42,681 --> 00:48:45,081
Speaker 2: like and he said, and he's saying, do you really

1045
00:48:45,081 --> 00:48:47,001
Speaker 2: want a leg that doesn't work? He said, you've got

1046
00:48:47,001 --> 00:48:49,921
Speaker 2: no s left? Or oh, we can salvage is your

1047
00:48:49,961 --> 00:48:52,281
Speaker 2: knee cap? And I'm on the bed and my leg's

1048
00:48:52,281 --> 00:48:54,321
Speaker 2: there and I'm doing this in my foot and I'm

1049
00:48:54,321 --> 00:48:59,201
Speaker 2: thinking fuck, and I know your amputation and I said, oh,

1050
00:48:59,521 --> 00:49:01,241
Speaker 2: and my words weren't here or I don't know whether

1051
00:49:01,241 --> 00:49:01,801
Speaker 2: you remember.

1052
00:49:01,921 --> 00:49:02,521
Speaker 3: You probably can't.

1053
00:49:02,561 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 2: I said, you ain't fucking turning me into Heather Mills yet,

1054
00:49:05,361 --> 00:49:06,761
Speaker 2: Paul McCartney's exact.

1055
00:49:07,001 --> 00:49:09,921
Speaker 3: And my mother was like, Rachel, you know, stop swearing.

1056
00:49:10,001 --> 00:49:11,521
Speaker 3: And I'm like fucking hell.

1057
00:49:11,601 --> 00:49:14,401
Speaker 2: You know, imagine if I'd just said, yeah, lobbing off,

1058
00:49:14,721 --> 00:49:19,801
Speaker 2: you know, who wants their leg off above the knee?

1059
00:49:20,401 --> 00:49:22,241
Speaker 2: And he said, oh, we thought you'd say that, And

1060
00:49:22,241 --> 00:49:24,521
Speaker 2: it's like, you know, most people would say, you know,

1061
00:49:24,681 --> 00:49:26,361
Speaker 2: hang on a minute, You've got to at least try

1062
00:49:26,401 --> 00:49:29,921
Speaker 2: and save this. So thankfully they sent me to Swansea

1063
00:49:29,961 --> 00:49:33,161
Speaker 2: and the surgeons down there, mister Melons is absolutely amazing,

1064
00:49:33,201 --> 00:49:35,681
Speaker 2: and they deal with like soldiers, you know, from the

1065
00:49:35,721 --> 00:49:37,961
Speaker 2: water and all, and they didn't know what they were

1066
00:49:38,001 --> 00:49:41,481
Speaker 2: doing mine that what they researched my leg, comparing it

1067
00:49:41,521 --> 00:49:43,721
Speaker 2: to was when the IRA used to blow the back

1068
00:49:43,761 --> 00:49:46,641
Speaker 2: of the knees ache. So they were looking at stuff

1069
00:49:46,721 --> 00:49:49,161
Speaker 2: like that, and he took photos which I'm now in

1070
00:49:49,201 --> 00:49:51,641
Speaker 2: a medical book because that was on the table. I mean,

1071
00:49:51,841 --> 00:49:56,121
Speaker 2: they had to basically flip my leg, put the middle

1072
00:49:56,201 --> 00:49:58,521
Speaker 2: calf muscle up into the hole because obviously there was

1073
00:49:58,561 --> 00:50:02,201
Speaker 2: a huge hole in my leg, and stuff it with that.

1074
00:50:02,561 --> 00:50:05,801
Speaker 2: And then they sent to America for power for my leg,

1075
00:50:06,201 --> 00:50:07,921
Speaker 2: which we had to wait for because they had to

1076
00:50:07,961 --> 00:50:10,161
Speaker 2: have extra long rods and everything else. And the nurse

1077
00:50:10,201 --> 00:50:12,441
Speaker 2: said to me, I've never seen so many boxes in

1078
00:50:12,561 --> 00:50:15,961
Speaker 2: theater but I was determined you ain't taking my fucking

1079
00:50:16,041 --> 00:50:19,361
Speaker 2: leg off no way. And then the surgeon said that

1080
00:50:19,441 --> 00:50:22,521
Speaker 2: the pressure of the sawn off was like dropping a

1081
00:50:22,641 --> 00:50:24,121
Speaker 2: range rover in a square inch.

1082
00:50:25,161 --> 00:50:26,001
Speaker 1: How long were you?

1083
00:50:26,441 --> 00:50:26,521
Speaker 3: Like?

1084
00:50:26,561 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: I know you still I don't know. I like maybe,

1085
00:50:29,201 --> 00:50:31,761
Speaker 1: as you said before when we first started, you can

1086
00:50:31,801 --> 00:50:35,321
Speaker 1: have a like stay dwelling about it, or you can

1087
00:50:35,361 --> 00:50:39,801
Speaker 1: move on. But surely you were traumatized for that for months.

1088
00:50:39,961 --> 00:50:42,681
Speaker 2: Surely it was funny because when the lady had done

1089
00:50:42,681 --> 00:50:45,321
Speaker 2: a serious case review, so they gathered all the information

1090
00:50:45,441 --> 00:50:49,121
Speaker 2: and whatever else, and she said to me, she said, Rachel,

1091
00:50:49,281 --> 00:50:53,081
Speaker 2: she said, you have got a unique copper mechanism. I said, well,

1092
00:50:53,081 --> 00:50:55,401
Speaker 2: when you've lived with a fucking psychopath for eighteen years,

1093
00:50:55,441 --> 00:50:59,281
Speaker 2: you adapt a unique coper mechanism. And I think that

1094
00:50:59,481 --> 00:51:02,201
Speaker 2: was to do with it. And also I do.

1095
00:51:02,161 --> 00:51:04,921
Speaker 3: Believe that you were in charge of your brain.

1096
00:51:05,081 --> 00:51:07,041
Speaker 2: You've got the remote control to your brain, and if

1097
00:51:07,081 --> 00:51:09,281
Speaker 2: you don't want to listen to something or keep replaying

1098
00:51:09,321 --> 00:51:12,281
Speaker 2: something in your head, change the channel. I mean, for

1099
00:51:12,401 --> 00:51:14,881
Speaker 2: me being in hospital for six weeks, and there was

1100
00:51:15,001 --> 00:51:18,281
Speaker 2: lots of stuff going on where the police were involved.

1101
00:51:18,361 --> 00:51:20,241
Speaker 2: You know, my mother had a brick through a window.

1102
00:51:20,481 --> 00:51:23,281
Speaker 2: My sister had a tire slashed on a care from

1103
00:51:23,521 --> 00:51:27,241
Speaker 2: the fans of Darren's, you know, and whoever else was involved.

1104
00:51:27,281 --> 00:51:28,881
Speaker 3: You know, it was horrendous.

1105
00:51:29,321 --> 00:51:31,161
Speaker 2: And then you know, and then I come out of

1106
00:51:31,161 --> 00:51:34,521
Speaker 2: hospital on Friday, the twenty third of September, and Jack

1107
00:51:34,521 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 2: committed suicide on Friday. On Monday the twenty sixth September,

1108
00:51:38,681 --> 00:51:40,641
Speaker 2: he was sixteen years of age, and that was a

1109
00:51:40,681 --> 00:51:44,801
Speaker 2: consequence of Darren's actions, one man's actions. And I think

1110
00:51:44,881 --> 00:51:47,681
Speaker 2: for me, that is the tragedy. In my case, you know,

1111
00:51:48,161 --> 00:51:51,001
Speaker 2: I'll be shot ten times over, you know. But Jack

1112
00:51:51,321 --> 00:51:53,841
Speaker 2: was the one that was an innocent victim in this,

1113
00:51:53,961 --> 00:51:56,361
Speaker 2: and I think that is why I keep going and

1114
00:51:56,521 --> 00:51:57,721
Speaker 2: trying to make the changes.

1115
00:51:58,041 --> 00:52:01,881
Speaker 1: Did Jack before that happened to Jack, did he show

1116
00:52:01,921 --> 00:52:03,521
Speaker 1: any signs that he was going to do that?

1117
00:52:05,121 --> 00:52:06,961
Speaker 3: Well, the last time I seen Jack was a day

1118
00:52:06,961 --> 00:52:07,521
Speaker 3: of the shooting.

1119
00:52:07,721 --> 00:52:09,721
Speaker 2: And then Jack had chose to go and stay with

1120
00:52:09,841 --> 00:52:13,321
Speaker 2: Darren's family for some sympathy for his father's death, which

1121
00:52:13,321 --> 00:52:16,521
Speaker 2: he could not fully get from my family. Understandably, I

1122
00:52:16,641 --> 00:52:18,841
Speaker 2: believe that Jack as a sixteen.

1123
00:52:18,481 --> 00:52:18,961
Speaker 3: Year old boy.

1124
00:52:19,001 --> 00:52:21,161
Speaker 2: I was phone in Social Services and I was saying listen,

1125
00:52:21,161 --> 00:52:23,961
Speaker 2: he become a boy no longer recognize. So me and

1126
00:52:24,041 --> 00:52:26,561
Speaker 2: Jack were like that. I mean, whenever I was Jack

1127
00:52:26,601 --> 00:52:29,561
Speaker 2: one far behind. You know, he was a very thoughtful boy.

1128
00:52:29,761 --> 00:52:31,841
Speaker 2: You know, whenever I went shopping, he'd be the first

1129
00:52:31,841 --> 00:52:33,881
Speaker 2: putting the shoes on to help with the shopping bags.

1130
00:52:34,001 --> 00:52:36,561
Speaker 2: You know, admittedly one need all the frigging food as well,

1131
00:52:36,601 --> 00:52:40,081
Speaker 2: you know, but he was a very thoughtful, thoughtful boy,

1132
00:52:40,121 --> 00:52:43,881
Speaker 2: and very intelligent. Jack knew exactly what Darren was like.

1133
00:52:44,441 --> 00:52:47,201
Speaker 2: And I remember Jack saying to me when I moved

1134
00:52:47,201 --> 00:52:50,641
Speaker 2: out before I came back, and he said, you know,

1135
00:52:51,121 --> 00:52:53,841
Speaker 2: you've got to divorce him. If you don't divorce him,

1136
00:52:53,881 --> 00:52:56,241
Speaker 2: you're an idiot. You know, he knew exactly what he

1137
00:52:56,361 --> 00:52:59,681
Speaker 2: was like. But as a child, you know, you're conflicted

1138
00:52:59,721 --> 00:53:02,201
Speaker 2: because you've got two parents, so you love even though

1139
00:53:02,321 --> 00:53:05,281
Speaker 2: one and you'll resonate with this Neil. You know, you

1140
00:53:05,281 --> 00:53:08,641
Speaker 2: you see your father as this abuser, but yet he

1141
00:53:08,681 --> 00:53:11,081
Speaker 2: does things where it makes you love him. So you're

1142
00:53:11,081 --> 00:53:14,481
Speaker 2: conflicted constantly with good and I think sixteen years of

1143
00:53:14,521 --> 00:53:17,521
Speaker 2: age with hormones racing. You know, his life had being

1144
00:53:17,561 --> 00:53:20,121
Speaker 2: turned upside down. You know, his father had shot his mother.

1145
00:53:20,481 --> 00:53:23,241
Speaker 2: His father you know, in all the papers in the UK,

1146
00:53:23,361 --> 00:53:27,321
Speaker 2: on Sky News and everything else. You know, he sort

1147
00:53:27,321 --> 00:53:29,441
Speaker 2: of chose not to come and see me. And I

1148
00:53:29,521 --> 00:53:33,561
Speaker 2: believe he was being fueled by that side of the family.

1149
00:53:33,761 --> 00:53:35,561
Speaker 2: You know, he was being used as a vessel to

1150
00:53:35,641 --> 00:53:38,201
Speaker 2: channel their anger, even though they all knew what he

1151
00:53:38,281 --> 00:53:42,161
Speaker 2: was like. And I think he was just so unsupported.

1152
00:53:42,201 --> 00:53:44,681
Speaker 2: And I remember phoning Social Services and said, you've got

1153
00:53:44,721 --> 00:53:47,081
Speaker 2: to do something, and they said, well, he's sixteen, he

1154
00:53:47,121 --> 00:53:50,081
Speaker 2: can live where he wants. And you know, at sixteen,

1155
00:53:50,161 --> 00:53:53,001
Speaker 2: between sixteen and eighteen, I think that is the period

1156
00:53:53,481 --> 00:53:56,441
Speaker 2: where a lot of kids fall through that gap and

1157
00:53:56,481 --> 00:53:59,561
Speaker 2: through the net because they're like, you're old enough to

1158
00:53:59,561 --> 00:54:00,281
Speaker 2: live where you want.

1159
00:54:00,321 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 3: No, they're not. They're sixteen years of age.

1160
00:54:01,961 --> 00:54:04,041
Speaker 2: You know, they're not allowed to vote, they're not allowed

1161
00:54:04,081 --> 00:54:07,121
Speaker 2: to buy alcohol. They're still children. And the support one

1162
00:54:07,281 --> 00:54:09,441
Speaker 2: there for him, and you know, and that is the

1163
00:54:09,481 --> 00:54:14,161
Speaker 2: tragedy in my case. But you know, you learn to

1164
00:54:14,201 --> 00:54:17,201
Speaker 2: live with grief. Grief is I mean, it's horrific when

1165
00:54:17,401 --> 00:54:20,601
Speaker 2: something like, you know, nobody expects to lose a child ever,

1166
00:54:20,721 --> 00:54:24,641
Speaker 2: you know, as a as a parent, but you're on

1167
00:54:24,681 --> 00:54:27,241
Speaker 2: this journey where you're up and down and then you

1168
00:54:27,521 --> 00:54:30,601
Speaker 2: just learn to live with it, I suppose. And I

1169
00:54:30,601 --> 00:54:33,161
Speaker 2: think for me, the fuel that burns in my fire

1170
00:54:33,721 --> 00:54:37,161
Speaker 2: is to bring awareness, is to educate kids to say,

1171
00:54:37,201 --> 00:54:40,121
Speaker 2: you know, you know, boys angels is about respect. You know,

1172
00:54:40,441 --> 00:54:43,721
Speaker 2: you cannot control somebody else's life. And for me, it

1173
00:54:43,881 --> 00:54:45,881
Speaker 2: was making that choice. You can either be a victim

1174
00:54:45,961 --> 00:54:47,841
Speaker 2: or a victor. You can have a foot in the

1175
00:54:47,881 --> 00:54:50,481
Speaker 2: pity party and be powerful at the same time. So

1176
00:54:50,561 --> 00:54:53,281
Speaker 2: I was quick enough to sort of, you know, check

1177
00:54:53,361 --> 00:54:55,641
Speaker 2: that label because I didn't want to be labeled, Oh,

1178
00:54:55,641 --> 00:54:58,241
Speaker 2: you're a victim of abuse or attempted murder or.

1179
00:54:58,241 --> 00:55:00,481
Speaker 1: You know, what about your other son? How did he

1180
00:55:00,561 --> 00:55:00,841
Speaker 1: cope with.

1181
00:55:02,481 --> 00:55:06,161
Speaker 2: I think for Josh, thankfully obviously one Aaron's as I said,

1182
00:55:06,241 --> 00:55:09,441
Speaker 2: but he's very much like me. He's quite resilient. And

1183
00:55:09,521 --> 00:55:11,401
Speaker 2: I think we've talked about it. You know, we can't

1184
00:55:11,401 --> 00:55:14,561
Speaker 2: turn the clock back, you know, we can only move forward.

1185
00:55:14,761 --> 00:55:17,481
Speaker 2: And we've just got to appreciate those sixteen years we

1186
00:55:17,561 --> 00:55:19,921
Speaker 2: had with Jack. You know, we all got our memories

1187
00:55:19,961 --> 00:55:22,601
Speaker 2: of Jack, and you know it's a case of just

1188
00:55:22,641 --> 00:55:25,681
Speaker 2: you know, basically getting on with it, you know, and

1189
00:55:26,321 --> 00:55:29,401
Speaker 2: you know, Josh probably smokes too much dope. But you know,

1190
00:55:29,601 --> 00:55:32,041
Speaker 2: kids deal with stuff differently. I mean I could have

1191
00:55:32,121 --> 00:55:34,921
Speaker 2: ended up being some raging alcoholic or taking drugs, you know,

1192
00:55:35,161 --> 00:55:39,801
Speaker 2: to cope with it. But I chose to basically do

1193
00:55:39,841 --> 00:55:42,201
Speaker 2: what I can in the domestic abuse arena and share

1194
00:55:42,241 --> 00:55:45,601
Speaker 2: my story to give hope to others. You know, not

1195
00:55:45,721 --> 00:55:47,881
Speaker 2: everybody's story is gonna end up like mine, will come

1196
00:55:47,921 --> 00:55:49,761
Speaker 2: out of abusive relationship, but.

1197
00:55:49,641 --> 00:55:51,281
Speaker 3: To know actually there is hope there.

1198
00:55:51,321 --> 00:55:54,961
Speaker 2: You can get help and hopefully the judiciary system will

1199
00:55:55,201 --> 00:55:58,441
Speaker 2: deal with perpetrators how they should deal with them. So

1200
00:55:58,521 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 2: I think that's my therapy and writing my book as well,

1201
00:56:01,041 --> 00:56:03,161
Speaker 2: which was very helpful I think as well.

1202
00:56:03,241 --> 00:56:09,081
Speaker 1: Yeah, moving forward, when you met someone like else, were you?

1203
00:56:09,161 --> 00:56:12,161
Speaker 1: Were you very conscious on your next date?

1204
00:56:13,401 --> 00:56:13,641
Speaker 3: Yes?

1205
00:56:14,441 --> 00:56:17,481
Speaker 1: So did you check? Did you check his draws and

1206
00:56:17,561 --> 00:56:19,761
Speaker 1: his closets? Make phone?

1207
00:56:20,841 --> 00:56:21,601
Speaker 3: Neil? Neil?

1208
00:56:21,641 --> 00:56:23,561
Speaker 2: It was the other way round, So I I had

1209
00:56:23,641 --> 00:56:28,081
Speaker 2: met right. So again another mental moment in my life.

1210
00:56:28,121 --> 00:56:30,281
Speaker 2: I literally just went on match dot com right because

1211
00:56:30,281 --> 00:56:35,561
Speaker 2: I was thinking to myself, Right, I was thinking to myself,

1212
00:56:35,961 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to end up being on my own.

1213
00:56:37,641 --> 00:56:39,561
Speaker 3: You know, life is to it is a journey.

1214
00:56:39,601 --> 00:56:42,601
Speaker 2: It's about exploring places you know, being with somebody you

1215
00:56:42,641 --> 00:56:45,281
Speaker 2: got connection with. And I thought, my my strap line

1216
00:56:45,321 --> 00:56:46,921
Speaker 2: is I one going to let one ass or ruin

1217
00:56:47,001 --> 00:56:49,721
Speaker 2: the rest of my life? Basically, so I put myself

1218
00:56:50,801 --> 00:56:53,961
Speaker 2: crazily on match dot com. Anyway, I have this, had

1219
00:56:54,001 --> 00:56:55,841
Speaker 2: a couple of messages anywhay, had this one off this

1220
00:56:55,881 --> 00:56:58,401
Speaker 2: guy called Mike, you know, and in my little bio

1221
00:56:58,481 --> 00:57:02,161
Speaker 2: it said, you know, life experence, life experiences, you know.

1222
00:57:02,801 --> 00:57:05,001
Speaker 3: Which have shaped my life. You know, I'm aware.

1223
00:57:05,601 --> 00:57:07,921
Speaker 2: So Mike's singing in his head because he's a decent

1224
00:57:08,441 --> 00:57:12,921
Speaker 2: member of society, caring man, thinking Paul Burger. She's lost

1225
00:57:12,961 --> 00:57:15,521
Speaker 2: her husband through cancer or something, you know, and this

1226
00:57:15,561 --> 00:57:18,521
Speaker 2: guy's on a pedestal and whatever. Anyway, types me this

1227
00:57:18,681 --> 00:57:22,241
Speaker 2: lovely email. I'm so sorry to hear. You know, blah

1228
00:57:22,321 --> 00:57:24,481
Speaker 2: blah blah. You're a widow and if you want to

1229
00:57:24,521 --> 00:57:26,641
Speaker 2: go out, we'll go for a drink and whatever. So

1230
00:57:26,681 --> 00:57:30,721
Speaker 2: I'm typing back. Listen, you know you need to google me.

1231
00:57:34,281 --> 00:57:36,881
Speaker 2: You need to google me because I come with a

1232
00:57:36,881 --> 00:57:41,521
Speaker 2: bit of baggage. And Mike, Mike, being the person he is,

1233
00:57:41,921 --> 00:57:44,041
Speaker 2: said no, the low put eyes in the front of

1234
00:57:44,081 --> 00:57:45,681
Speaker 2: her I had to look forward and not back, and

1235
00:57:45,721 --> 00:57:47,641
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, well, that's not been what I'd be saying

1236
00:57:47,681 --> 00:57:49,841
Speaker 2: to you, make because I was already google searching him.

1237
00:57:49,921 --> 00:57:50,121
Speaker 3: Right.

1238
00:57:50,641 --> 00:57:53,001
Speaker 2: So at this point I still got my leg in

1239
00:57:53,041 --> 00:57:55,361
Speaker 2: a brace. So this is not long after the shooting,

1240
00:57:55,441 --> 00:57:57,321
Speaker 2: so you know, my my legs still in a brace.

1241
00:57:57,801 --> 00:58:00,081
Speaker 2: So I go out on this date. So he comes

1242
00:58:00,081 --> 00:58:01,841
Speaker 2: and picks me up. So by saying to my sister's right,

1243
00:58:01,841 --> 00:58:04,041
Speaker 2: this is where we're going, you know, so let let

1244
00:58:04,081 --> 00:58:05,921
Speaker 2: him know where I am and everything else. You know,

1245
00:58:06,721 --> 00:58:08,201
Speaker 2: this is his red, you know, give him all the

1246
00:58:08,281 --> 00:58:12,001
Speaker 2: details and all. Anyway, so we go to this lovely

1247
00:58:12,081 --> 00:58:15,721
Speaker 2: Thaie restaurant back over the bridge into England because he's

1248
00:58:15,761 --> 00:58:18,481
Speaker 2: English and obviously I'm Welsh. So we're having this lovely

1249
00:58:18,521 --> 00:58:22,121
Speaker 2: meal and I thought he felt safe straight away with him,

1250
00:58:22,441 --> 00:58:24,761
Speaker 2: and I said, oh, I'm glad you're not a weirdo.

1251
00:58:25,041 --> 00:58:27,681
Speaker 3: And he said, you know, what do you mean? I said,

1252
00:58:27,721 --> 00:58:28,761
Speaker 3: because otherwise you should have this?

1253
00:58:28,841 --> 00:58:30,681
Speaker 2: And I pulled out one of the hunting knives out

1254
00:58:30,681 --> 00:58:34,161
Speaker 2: to Darren Straw to my bag and I said, because

1255
00:58:34,201 --> 00:58:36,841
Speaker 2: otherwise should have this, and he's sort of like look

1256
00:58:36,881 --> 00:58:41,241
Speaker 2: to me as if to say, what the So anyway,

1257
00:58:41,241 --> 00:58:43,281
Speaker 2: I put it back, put it back in my bag

1258
00:58:43,641 --> 00:58:46,121
Speaker 2: because I'm on creatches there. I'm thinking, if I'm dealing

1259
00:58:46,161 --> 00:58:48,561
Speaker 2: with another psychopath, what am I going to do? You know,

1260
00:58:50,441 --> 00:58:52,321
Speaker 2: you know, knowing micause I know him now, you know,

1261
00:58:52,441 --> 00:58:55,961
Speaker 2: twelve years on, you know, I physically saw his eyes dying,

1262
00:58:56,361 --> 00:58:59,881
Speaker 2: you know that. But but it didn't put him off.

1263
00:59:00,201 --> 00:59:01,961
Speaker 2: It did not put him off, and we were just

1264
00:59:02,041 --> 00:59:04,441
Speaker 2: meant to be and you know, and that is it.

1265
00:59:05,081 --> 00:59:08,081
Speaker 2: I don't taking knife sat down dates mind. I just

1266
00:59:08,121 --> 00:59:09,201
Speaker 2: want to put that right there.

1267
00:59:12,761 --> 00:59:15,601
Speaker 1: You know what, Rach, I take my hat off to

1268
00:59:15,681 --> 00:59:22,881
Speaker 1: you because you're inspiring but also brave, and not just

1269
00:59:22,921 --> 00:59:27,241
Speaker 1: because of what you've gone through with Darren, your ex,

1270
00:59:27,681 --> 00:59:31,521
Speaker 1: but more the fact of you know, what he did

1271
00:59:31,561 --> 00:59:36,161
Speaker 1: to you mentally and physically, and then losing your son

1272
00:59:36,281 --> 00:59:42,121
Speaker 1: because of his acts, his actions. It's massive, you know

1273
00:59:42,161 --> 00:59:45,001
Speaker 1: what I mean. And you've still got a smile on

1274
00:59:45,041 --> 00:59:49,361
Speaker 1: your face, and you know, I appreciate what you've shared

1275
00:59:49,401 --> 00:59:51,601
Speaker 1: with me. And as I said, I take my hat

1276
00:59:51,641 --> 00:59:51,921
Speaker 1: off to you.

1277
00:59:52,521 --> 00:59:55,041
Speaker 2: Really good cheers, Neil, you know, and like I said,

1278
00:59:55,041 --> 00:59:57,521
Speaker 2: you know, you only get when life here. You know,

1279
00:59:57,601 --> 01:00:00,801
Speaker 2: it's literally like an aerosol can and then you're gone,

1280
01:00:00,841 --> 01:00:03,321
Speaker 2: you know. I want to leave some sort of legacy.

1281
01:00:03,361 --> 01:00:05,041
Speaker 2: And I do a lot of campaign and I've got

1282
01:00:05,841 --> 01:00:07,681
Speaker 2: for petitions with a million signatures.

1283
01:00:08,201 --> 01:00:08,641
Speaker 3: My help.

1284
01:00:08,721 --> 01:00:11,601
Speaker 2: I was very instrumental getting unfailed strangulation on the statute

1285
01:00:11,641 --> 01:00:15,241
Speaker 2: books over in the UK, and constantly you know, pulling

1286
01:00:15,321 --> 01:00:18,641
Speaker 2: up MPs, you know, and I will say it as

1287
01:00:18,641 --> 01:00:21,081
Speaker 2: it is that, you know, since turning fifty, the filter's

1288
01:00:21,121 --> 01:00:22,921
Speaker 2: gone altogether. I mean I didn't have much of a

1289
01:00:22,961 --> 01:00:25,441
Speaker 2: filter to start with, but it's like, shit, did I

1290
01:00:25,481 --> 01:00:29,361
Speaker 2: really just say that? But the thing is, being silent

1291
01:00:29,721 --> 01:00:31,481
Speaker 2: is not going to get you anywhere. And I think

1292
01:00:31,521 --> 01:00:34,201
Speaker 2: you know what we need and you'll probably agree, you know,

1293
01:00:34,441 --> 01:00:37,801
Speaker 2: being brought up in that toxic environment and thank god

1294
01:00:37,921 --> 01:00:40,641
Speaker 2: you turned out all right, but we need decent men

1295
01:00:41,201 --> 01:00:43,801
Speaker 2: calling out those perpetrators. You know, when you're down a

1296
01:00:43,881 --> 01:00:45,841
Speaker 2: pub at the bar, you know, and listening to your

1297
01:00:45,881 --> 01:00:47,801
Speaker 2: mate saying, oh, yeah, the missus, you know, she's a

1298
01:00:47,801 --> 01:00:52,081
Speaker 2: good shag or whatever it is, degrading jokes, actually saying well, actually,

1299
01:00:52,121 --> 01:00:55,121
Speaker 2: you know, that's quite sad to say that a bait

1300
01:00:55,241 --> 01:00:57,721
Speaker 2: wife or your girlfriend, and pulling people up on it.

1301
01:00:57,761 --> 01:01:00,601
Speaker 2: And that's what we need, because we need men to

1302
01:01:00,681 --> 01:01:04,241
Speaker 2: help us, you know, in this sort of fight against

1303
01:01:04,241 --> 01:01:07,401
Speaker 2: domestic abiuece of violence because in the UK we lose

1304
01:01:07,441 --> 01:01:09,241
Speaker 2: two women a week at the hands of an abuser,

1305
01:01:10,161 --> 01:01:12,081
Speaker 2: and we know at least twenty thousand women try to

1306
01:01:12,121 --> 01:01:14,241
Speaker 2: take their own lives every year to escape the abuse.

1307
01:01:14,721 --> 01:01:18,321
Speaker 2: It'd be even more bigger the figures in Australia.

1308
01:01:18,721 --> 01:01:19,961
Speaker 3: So we need to just do more and

1309
01:01:20,001 --> 01:01:21,801
Speaker 2: Speak out to Brainy because the shame lives and the

1310
01:01:21,801 --> 01:01:23,721
Speaker 2: feeds of the perpetrator are not predicted