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Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Thursday, August fourteen, twenty twenty five. A scoop today

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Speaker 1: from our US correspondent Joe Kelly. The US Defense Department

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Speaker 1: wants to step up collective defense with Australia and Asian allies,

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Speaker 1: including Japan, before twenty twenty seven, the date it thinks

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Speaker 1: China might be capable of invading Taiwan. The Pentagon is

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Speaker 1: happy South Korea has increased its defense spending, but is

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Speaker 1: concerned by a recent speech in which Anthony Albanezi praised

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Speaker 1: Australia's World War II leader John Curtain for standing up

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Speaker 1: to the.

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Speaker 2: US and UK.

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Speaker 1: You can read that exclusive right now at the Australian

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Speaker 1: dot Com dot u. It was a powerful moment in

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Speaker 1: the murder case that's captivated the world the day Aaron

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Speaker 1: Patterson's husband, Simon, who believes his wife repeatedly tried to

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Speaker 1: kill him before she murdered his parents and aunt, clashed

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Speaker 1: with his wife's lawyer in court today, the moment we

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Speaker 1: haven't previously been able to report. Nobody knows the story

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Speaker 1: of mushroom killer Aaron Patterson better than John Ferguson, the

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Speaker 1: Australian's associate editor. Ferg broke the yarn of a mass

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Speaker 1: poisoning event in Country Victoria way back in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: a remarkable piece of newsbreaking that grew out of John's

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Speaker 1: decades of shoe leather reporting and contacts. Then John sat

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Speaker 1: through all the pre trial hearings and the murder trial itself.

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Speaker 1: Aaron Patterson was convicted of murdering her husband Simon's parents

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Speaker 1: Don and Gail Patterson, and his auntie Heather Wilkinson, by

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Speaker 1: serving them beef Wellington she had deliberately laced with deathcap mushroom.

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Speaker 1: She was also convicted of the attempted murder of Simon's uncle,

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Speaker 1: Ian Wilkinson, the only survivor of that lunch. Today ferg

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Speaker 1: is reporting something we haven't previously been able to bring you,

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Speaker 1: a previously suppressed exchange between Simon Patterson and Colin Mandy

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Speaker 1: sc the barrister representing Aaron Patterson.

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Speaker 3: Simon Patterson is not an aggressive person, I wouldn't say,

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Speaker 3: but he certainly was unhappy with I suppose the nature

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Speaker 3: of the questioning.

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Speaker 1: This happened at pre trial hearings before the Victorian Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court back in October twenty twenty four. On October fourteen,

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Speaker 1: Simon Patterson was called to the witness box to be

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Speaker 1: cross examined by Colin Mandy, sc council for his wife.

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Speaker 1: Patterson told Colin Mandy, an acquaintance, Jess O'Donnell, had been

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Speaker 1: giving him advice about how to handle the media requests

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Speaker 1: he was getting. We've used voice actors to bring you

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Speaker 1: the exchange from court. Colin Mandy speaks first.

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Speaker 4: And what advice has she given you about the public

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Speaker 4: relations approach?

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Speaker 2: She's advised me to consider what happens after the trial

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Speaker 2: and has suggested I consider how I might tell my

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Speaker 2: story after the court process is finished.

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Speaker 4: Has suggested how you might consider telling your story. Does

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Speaker 4: that mean in relation to some kind of publication that's right?

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Speaker 2: How to communicate in public?

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Speaker 4: Writing a book? That was one suggestion, an extensive interview

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Speaker 4: with a major news network that's been discussed. Has she

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Speaker 4: indicated to you, Well, she's prepared to start investigating those options. Yes,

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Speaker 4: and obviously for financial reward to.

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Speaker 2: You, Yes, that would definitely be a part of it.

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Speaker 4: Well, that would be the only reason you were doing it,

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Speaker 4: wouldn't it say that again. Sorry, That would be the

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Speaker 4: only reason you would be doing it, wouldn't it.

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Speaker 2: That would be the only reason I'd be telling my

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Speaker 2: story in future. Yes.

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Speaker 4: No, What are the other reasons you might have for

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Speaker 4: telling your story in public in the future.

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Speaker 2: I think there are quite a few reasons why that

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Speaker 2: would be a good idea. The local community is grieving

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Speaker 2: because of what happened, and a lot of people are

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Speaker 2: keen to know what happened, and I think informing them

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Speaker 2: of what happened would help with their grief. Another reason

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Speaker 2: is that it's possible that you're here to damage my

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Speaker 2: reputation because you're paid by Aaron and I believe she's

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Speaker 2: tried to harm me and now her mouthpiece, and that

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Speaker 2: will shape the media narrative. That potentially creates a risk

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Speaker 2: to me that I would potentially need to mitigate after

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Speaker 2: the trial's.

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Speaker 4: Over for considerable financial reward.

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Speaker 2: There could be considerable financial that's a potential. Yes.

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Speaker 1: What did it reveal for you about how Simon Patterson

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Speaker 1: was feeling at the time.

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Speaker 3: I think it's fair to say that Tom Mandy is

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Speaker 3: a front foot lawyer and he was doing his job.

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Speaker 3: But what you get in pre trial tends to be

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Speaker 3: a more robust environment because with a jury.

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Speaker 5: He was very clear that Simon Patterson will.

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Speaker 3: He's very much a victim amongst all this, and so

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Speaker 3: victims to have to be treated carefully a little bit

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Speaker 3: different in pre trial because you don't have a jury.

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Speaker 3: That doesn't mean that mister Mandy wasn't respectful or it

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Speaker 3: wasn't doing his job. He was, but I think Simon

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Speaker 3: Patterson really took exception to the idea that he would

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Speaker 3: want to have some sort of financial gain out.

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Speaker 5: Of the misery that had been inflicted upon his family.

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Speaker 1: Colin Mandy didn't come back to this line of questioning

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Speaker 1: in his cross examination of Simon Patterson during the trial.

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Speaker 1: What do you think we can draw from that?

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Speaker 3: I think a lot of what was said in pre

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Speaker 3: trial didn't make its way to the actual trial. It was,

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Speaker 3: in some senses interesting. I suppose that there would be

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Speaker 3: a media adviser and that sort of thing, But media

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Speaker 3: advisors in these situations aren't abnormal. This is not the

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Speaker 3: first time that someone in a massive family crisis has

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Speaker 3: got media help. I remember back at Beaconsfield it was

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Speaker 3: one example. There were media advisors or agents walking all

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Speaker 3: over the town.

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Speaker 1: That was when miners were trapped underground in Tasmania.

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Speaker 5: That's right in about two thousand and six.

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Speaker 3: Another one was on Black Saturday, the bushfires Victoria in

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Speaker 3: two thousand and nine.

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Speaker 5: Obviously a lot of victims.

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Speaker 3: There were media people doing a lot of pro bono

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Speaker 3: work to basically help out. And I think this is

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Speaker 3: more where jess o'donald's role is. I've met her very

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Speaker 3: much as social justice person and I think she just felt, well,

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Speaker 3: she can help the family out.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 3: Now the evidence was that she's getting paid for that.

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Speaker 3: How much it wasn't declared, but you know, there's probably

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Speaker 3: a fair amount of good will involved in this as well.

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Speaker 1: Right up until the beginning of the murder trial, Aaron

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Speaker 1: Patterson was also facing other charges related to her alleged

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Speaker 1: attempts to kill Simon, attempting to poison him with things

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Speaker 1: like a curry wrap and pasta. What happened to those charges, John,

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Speaker 1: Why were they dropped?

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Speaker 3: We've never been told, but you and I can talk

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Speaker 3: about what we might think happened.

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Speaker 5: So that was at the.

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Speaker 3: Beginning of the trial, I think ultimately, and this came

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Speaker 3: out in pre trial as well, that the prosecution case

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Speaker 3: wasn't as strong as they would have liked, and that

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Speaker 3: they took a decision that they had a strong case

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Speaker 3: on the three murder charges plus the attempted murder charge

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Speaker 3: against Ian Wilkinson. So they've in a sense rolled the

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Speaker 3: dice and said we'll go with this because we know

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Speaker 3: we've got a strong case. And they did have a

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Speaker 3: strong case. But under the process we now know, with

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Speaker 3: the suppressions being lifted and the pre trial discussions being

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Speaker 3: made public, that it's the totality of the evidence, not

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Speaker 3: necessarily the limited evidence that was put to the jury

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Speaker 3: that makes it such a compelling you know she did

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Speaker 3: it case because I think, having even and I having

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Speaker 3: sat through the pre trial, it was very hard to

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Speaker 3: think otherwise.

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Speaker 5: However, I still it wouldn't have surprised me if there

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Speaker 5: had been a hung jury.

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Speaker 3: Im more that a small number of people might have thought, well,

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Speaker 3: was there enough evidence there to get it across the line.

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Speaker 3: So I think the prosecution knew they were on to

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Speaker 3: a winner, and that's probably why they chose not to

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Speaker 3: go ahead with the other attempt at murder charges.

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Speaker 1: It's a pretty confident move, isn't it by the prosecution,

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Speaker 1: Because if they had failed on the murder charge. They

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Speaker 1: would be left with a choice to charge Aaron Patterson

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Speaker 1: again with the attempted murder charges about Simon Patterson, or

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Speaker 1: to just let it go.

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Speaker 5: I reckon.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's all speculation, but I reckon they would

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Speaker 3: have really struggled to have just let it go because

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, she's no Lindy Chamberlain. It's very

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Speaker 3: obvious that the jury has done a good job, and.

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Speaker 5: It would have been very hard.

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Speaker 3: I think it's pure, it's hypothetical, but ge if she

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Speaker 3: had got off, it would have been very hard for

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Speaker 3: them not to go back and try those Simon charges.

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Speaker 3: The other aspect of that is they did come up

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Speaker 3: with some potentially new evidence about the use of rat

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Speaker 3: poisoning for one of those Simon charges, which was raised

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Speaker 3: in the Court of Appeal, but we weren't given a

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Speaker 3: lot of detail about so you never know. They may

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Speaker 3: have come up with more information that could have been

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Speaker 3: used against her.

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Speaker 1: Once you know this information that her husband believed that

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Speaker 1: she was trying to kill him, and that he had

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Speaker 1: been in a comer, he'd had to have serious surgery,

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Speaker 1: he was paralyzed at one point, it really changes your

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Speaker 1: impression of Aaron Patterson, doesn't it. What's been the reaction

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Speaker 1: you've observed from people since we have been to publish

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Speaker 1: that information.

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Speaker 5: It's really interesting, Claire.

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Speaker 3: We're in this environment where people just believe what they

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Speaker 3: want to believe. I don't think people even bother to

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Speaker 3: fail themselves as the facts. They generally go, wow, yeah,

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Speaker 3: she's as guilty as sin or no, this is a conspiracy.

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Speaker 3: And if you bother to go into all the facts,

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Speaker 3: you go, well, it's clear in my view she's guilty.

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Speaker 3: But if you don't bother to going to the facts,

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Speaker 3: where you just stick to whatever position you have, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's a modern curse that people very much run down

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Speaker 3: the whichever burrow they want to run down and then

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Speaker 3: stay down there.

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Speaker 1: I think coming up another revelatory moment about Simon Patterson's experience.

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Speaker 1: There was another moment in Simon Patterson's time in the

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Speaker 1: witness box, this time during the trial itself in more

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Speaker 1: Well in Country Victoria. Remember, because the charges of attempted

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Speaker 1: murder relating to him had been dropped, Simon Patterson wasn't

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Speaker 1: allowed to talk about that in the witness box during

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Speaker 1: the trial. He was only allowed to give evidence related

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Speaker 1: to the charges over the fatal Beef Wellington lunch. The

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Speaker 1: jury was sent out after Simon Patterson had begun giving

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Speaker 1: evidence because Justice Christopher Beale had an important question for him.

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Speaker 1: The judge asked if Patterson was aware that, as the

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Speaker 1: spouse of an accused person, he had a right to

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Speaker 1: object to giving evidence. The judge wanted to know if

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Speaker 1: Patterson had been made aware of that right.

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Speaker 2: No, I didn't know. I couldn't. I didn't know I

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Speaker 2: had the right to object, But I don't object. And

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Speaker 2: also I have a small request for you, please. The

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Speaker 2: legal process has been very difficult as a witness, especially,

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Speaker 2: and that is why I say it to you without

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Speaker 2: the jury here, especially the way it's aggressed in terms

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Speaker 2: of the charges relating to me and my evidence about

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Speaker 2: that or non evidence. Now, I guess I have to

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Speaker 2: grieve and am grieving a lot about all this stuff here,

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Speaker 2: as I'm sure you can imagine. One thing that is

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Speaker 2: really difficult is not being able to follow what happens.

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Speaker 2: I haven't been as a witness, and for understandable reasons,

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Speaker 2: I haven't been able to follow along throughout the trial.

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Speaker 1: The judge told Simon Patterson he would be able to

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Speaker 1: follow the trial live stream or sit in the court

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Speaker 1: as soon as he had completed his own evidence.

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Speaker 2: I understand and I appreciate that. Thank you all the

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Speaker 2: hearings that's led up to this, all the discussions about

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Speaker 2: the way we got to this point here where I'm

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Speaker 2: sitting here half thinking about the things I'm not allowed

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Speaker 2: to talk about, and I understand. I don't actually understand why.

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Speaker 2: It seems bizarre to me, but it is what it is,

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Speaker 2: your honor, would you be able to make available after

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Speaker 2: all the legal proceedings have finished, the trans grips of

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Speaker 2: all those hearings, including the trial, for me to be

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Speaker 2: able to as I grieve, the legal process to help

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Speaker 2: me deal with that grief over It'll take me years.

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Speaker 1: The judge said he'd think about Patterson's request, and then

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Speaker 1: the matter was swept away by the epic trial. Now,

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Speaker 1: Simon Patterson's wife is in jail considering her prospects for

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Speaker 1: an appeal while he and their two children try to

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Speaker 1: rebuild their lives. Colin May was asking Simon Patterson about books,

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Speaker 1: about film deals, about anything that he knew that might

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Speaker 1: be in the offing, and what Simon Patterson ultimately said

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Speaker 1: was that he was getting lots of requests to lots

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Speaker 1: of offers, but that he hadn't committed to anything and

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Speaker 1: hadn't discussed money. What's your understanding now, John, of where

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Speaker 1: he might tell his story and how.

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Speaker 3: I think the most likely avenue is a podcast that

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Speaker 3: he'll probably do himself.

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Speaker 5: It wouldn't surprise me. If there's a book.

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Speaker 3: I'm guessing it's probably more likely to be in his words.

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Speaker 3: My understanding of him is he doesn't necessarily want a

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Speaker 3: filter placed over what he thinks and says, and that's

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Speaker 3: why you're not likely to get a sixty minutes tell

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Speaker 3: all interview or whatever, because I think a lot of

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Speaker 3: people sort of don't understand perhaps where the Patterson family

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Speaker 3: might come from. They're country people, so you know, they're

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Speaker 3: not straight out of Pitt Street. They're very much keep

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Speaker 3: to themselves country people, and it's not in his culture.

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Speaker 3: I don't think to necessarily want to sit in front

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Speaker 3: of a TV camera to tell the full story.

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Speaker 5: But don't be surprised if you start hearing from him

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Speaker 5: sooner rather than later.

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Speaker 1: John Ferguson is The Australian's associate editor. You can read

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Speaker 1: all his remarkable recording right now at the Australian dot

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Speaker 1: Com do