WEBVTT - University bosses and their million-dollar salaries

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<v Speaker 1>From Sports Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 1>When Bill Shorten finally gave up his hopes of ever

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<v Speaker 1>becoming Prime minister. One door closed and another much more

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<v Speaker 1>lucrative door opened. In his new role as Vice Chancellor

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<v Speaker 1>of the University of Canberra, he could earn up to

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<v Speaker 1>three times as much as the PM. His appointment comes

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<v Speaker 1>amid a fight about the exorbitant salaries Australian vice chancellors receive,

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<v Speaker 1>and at a time when his own government's new cap

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<v Speaker 1>on international students raise big questions about funding shortfalls and

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<v Speaker 1>higher education. Today National correspondent for the Saturday Paper Mike

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<v Speaker 1>Sekham on how much vice chancellors earn and how they

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<v Speaker 1>justify it. It's Wednesday, September eighteen. Mike, in his new

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<v Speaker 1>role as the Vice Chancellor of the University of Canberra,

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<v Speaker 1>is rumored that Bill Shorten may receive a hefty pay rise.

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<v Speaker 1>How much money are we talking about exactly?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we don't know the exact figio. They're still negotiating that.

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<v Speaker 2>But his predecessor, Patty Nixon earned just over a million

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<v Speaker 2>dollars if you consider short and tried twice to become

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<v Speaker 2>Prime minister and lost both times. Well, now he's going

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<v Speaker 2>to be earning more than the Prime minister, quite a

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<v Speaker 2>lot more than the Prime Minister. Anthony Albanezi gets an

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<v Speaker 2>annual wage of six hundred and seven thousand dollars five

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<v Speaker 2>hundred unshortened as a minister would earn a bit less

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<v Speaker 2>than that. I forget the exact number, but essentially shortened

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<v Speaker 2>stands to roughly treble his earnings.

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<v Speaker 1>So a million dollars, of course, is nothing to sneeze at.

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<v Speaker 2>No, no, indeed I wish I had it?

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<v Speaker 1>Is Paddy Nixon just an exception? Or is this the

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<v Speaker 1>case for all other university chancellors?

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<v Speaker 2>Well might seem overly generous to some, especially when you

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<v Speaker 2>consider that the University of Canberra is currently ranked four

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and third in the world. This is not a

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<v Speaker 2>particularly prestigious institution, and still a million dollar salary, But

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<v Speaker 2>that's actually about part the course for vice chancellor paychecks

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<v Speaker 2>in Australia. In twenty twenty three, the average vice chancellor

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<v Speaker 2>pay was just over a million. The highest pay was

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<v Speaker 2>for the vice chancellor of the University of Melbourne, which

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<v Speaker 2>was just shy of one point five million. At least,

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<v Speaker 2>you could say in the case of the University of Melbourne.

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<v Speaker 2>They came in thirteenth in the world rankings and have

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<v Speaker 2>a very big student body. So there is that.

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<v Speaker 1>I suppose there's a bit of the dark art. It's

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<v Speaker 1>about what vice chancellors actually do. In my mind anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>what warrants the million dollar salaries.

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<v Speaker 2>Well it's a good question. I actually looked up a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of university websites, you know, and just googled what

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<v Speaker 2>does the vice chancellor do? University of Sydney had a

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<v Speaker 2>little thing that said, and I'm quoting the vice chancellor

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<v Speaker 2>lead it's the university and determines its overall direction in

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<v Speaker 2>close consultation with the chancellor and other fellows of the Senate,

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<v Speaker 2>senior leaders and the academic board. So in other words,

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<v Speaker 2>the sort of chairman of the board. I guess you'd say,

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<v Speaker 2>but they actually do more than you know, set broad direction.

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<v Speaker 2>I spoke to one vice chancellor who couldn't be named

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<v Speaker 2>so they could speak freely, and they said they actually

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<v Speaker 2>spend a lot of their time hunting for money. Was

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<v Speaker 2>the way it was put. Hunting for money on behalf

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<v Speaker 2>of the university, which means, you know, schmoozing business lobbying government,

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of thing, and that role I think has

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<v Speaker 2>changed in the late nineteen nineties early two thousands, as

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<v Speaker 2>government funding was withdrawn, the internal structures of universities changed

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<v Speaker 2>a bit. So you know those boards and senates, I

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<v Speaker 2>think the universities have various names for them, but essentially

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<v Speaker 2>they fulfill the same function as a board of directors

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<v Speaker 2>and a private company. Well, it used to be the

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<v Speaker 2>case that those boards had lots of internal appointees, and

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<v Speaker 2>what's changed is that they're increasingly fewer of those and

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<v Speaker 2>many more external appointees over the years. So a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of those people come from the corporate world. The thing is,

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<v Speaker 2>of course that those people you know, coming from the

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<v Speaker 2>c suites of large private businesses and financial institutions are

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<v Speaker 2>used to huge paychecks, you know, well over a million dollars.

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<v Speaker 2>The CEO of the Commonwealth Bank, for example, earned seven

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<v Speaker 2>point three million dollars in twenty twenty three. So my

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<v Speaker 2>point here is that when someone coming from that world

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<v Speaker 2>enters the remuneration committee for a university, they think that

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<v Speaker 2>giving a million dollars to a vice chancellor is actually

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<v Speaker 2>pretty cheap, you know, And when one vice chancellor gets

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<v Speaker 2>a million dollars. It then sets a benchmark for others

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<v Speaker 2>to ask for the same, if not more. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>that's essentially human nature. So, you know, a lot of money.

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<v Speaker 2>But in their defense, that anonymous VC that I spoke

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<v Speaker 2>to highlighted that, you know, senior departmental secretaries in government

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<v Speaker 2>earned salaries similar to vice chancellors, and that's true. The

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<v Speaker 2>head of the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet, for example,

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<v Speaker 2>receives just over a million dollar. The head of Treasury

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<v Speaker 2>receives just under a million dollars. I think there's a

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<v Speaker 2>dozen or more other senior bureaucrats who pocket more than

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<v Speaker 2>nine hundred thousand. So, you know, my vice chancellor was

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<v Speaker 2>making the point a that it's not enormous in the

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<v Speaker 2>scheme of things, But their bigger point was that and

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<v Speaker 2>the word they used was furfey. That's distracting from the

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<v Speaker 2>real issue with universities, which is that they're grossly underfunded

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<v Speaker 2>by government. And they're not wrong about that. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>right now, universities have far bigger problems on their hands

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<v Speaker 2>with money than just the paychecks of vice chancellors.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up after the break, will Bill Shorten fight his

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<v Speaker 1>old colleagues on university funding. When he takes on his

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<v Speaker 1>new job, Bill Shorten is going to be the vice

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<v Speaker 1>chancellor of the University of Canberra and he's going in

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<v Speaker 1>at a time when there's a lot of criticism about

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<v Speaker 1>the huge pay packets that vice chancellors receive. But you've

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<v Speaker 1>been speaking with people who say that master much more

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<v Speaker 1>significant problem. Can you tell me about that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, sure, Well the heart of the problem is that universities,

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<v Speaker 2>in the absence of other funding, have come to rely

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<v Speaker 2>on the revenue from the fees paid by international students,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, to compensate what government isn't giving them. And

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<v Speaker 2>of course now the government is talking about cutting that

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<v Speaker 2>revenue stream as well by capping the number of overseas

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<v Speaker 2>students that can come to Australia. The Head of Universities Australia,

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<v Speaker 2>Professor David Lloyd, talked to the National Press Club about

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<v Speaker 2>this about a week ago, and you know, he said,

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<v Speaker 2>the stark and frightening reality was that two thirds of

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<v Speaker 2>publicly funded universities in Australia were in deficit in twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty two and twenty twenty three. The Other and Easy

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<v Speaker 2>government and the Peter Dotton Coalition are now outdoing one

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<v Speaker 2>another in a roush to reduce the number of overseas

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<v Speaker 2>students studying at Australian's Australia's universities. You know, he made

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<v Speaker 2>a very strong case. Universities were hammered during the COVID

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<v Speaker 2>period when the Morrison government pushed overseas students to leave

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<v Speaker 2>Australia and denied university's access to the job Keeper income

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<v Speaker 2>support scheme. So they suffered badly from that and now,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, just as they're recovering, both the major parties

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<v Speaker 2>are engaged in this pol driven attack. Was what Lloyd

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<v Speaker 2>called it, making international students, you know, scapegoats to blame

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<v Speaker 2>the housing crisis on. But really, you know, the problem

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<v Speaker 2>began long before the pandemic. I think the pandemic just

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<v Speaker 2>brought it into sharp focus. In the decade to two

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<v Speaker 2>thousand and seven, under the Howard government, public investment in

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<v Speaker 2>universities in Australia fell seven percent, and across the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of the OECD there was an average increase of forty

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<v Speaker 2>eight percent. So you know, you can see a big

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<v Speaker 2>difference there.

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<v Speaker 1>For us friends and this movement, the labor movement.

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<v Speaker 2>Education is the engine room of the economy. Then of course,

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<v Speaker 2>in two thousand and seven, Labor one power, and it

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<v Speaker 2>came in, promising an education revolution and warning that Australia's

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<v Speaker 2>prosperity would hit a wall unless the quality and funding

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<v Speaker 2>of education was raised substantially.

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<v Speaker 1>Mean by an education revolution. Let me take you through it.

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<v Speaker 2>You know. From two thousand and eight, the enrollments of

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<v Speaker 2>students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds rose by two thirds, enrollments

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<v Speaker 2>of indigenous students and those with disabilities more than double,

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<v Speaker 2>enrollments from regional and remote areas jumped fifty percent, and

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<v Speaker 2>spending as a share of gross domestic product also went up.

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<v Speaker 2>So Labour's promised revolution was in part realized, but it

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<v Speaker 2>didn't last. By twenty twenty, when the coalition parties were

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<v Speaker 2>again in power, the share of GDP being spent on

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<v Speaker 2>higher education was lower than it had been in two

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<v Speaker 2>thousand and eight.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's an obvious question, Mike, what has been the

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<v Speaker 1>impact of the successive cuts to universities and how they

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<v Speaker 1>operate well?

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<v Speaker 2>To start with, academic staff are increasingly employed under very

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<v Speaker 2>tenuous conditions, with casual or fixed term contracts now the

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<v Speaker 2>dominant form of employment as of June one this year,

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<v Speaker 2>also there had been confirmed under payments of staff at

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<v Speaker 2>thirty public universities totally around two hundred and three million dollars,

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<v Speaker 2>So you know we're talking big, big bucks here in

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<v Speaker 2>essentially wage theft. So you know that's a pretty big

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<v Speaker 2>deal for university staff. The NTEU, which is the Academics Union,

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<v Speaker 2>is currently advocating for a cap on executive salaries and

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<v Speaker 2>improved working conditions for tertiary staff. On top of this,

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<v Speaker 2>we're already seeing impacts from Labour's cuts to student numbers,

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<v Speaker 2>even though the legislation imposing caps is yet to pass.

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<v Speaker 2>The former Minister for Home Affairs, Clara O'Neal, last December

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<v Speaker 2>issued a directive which effectively slowed the granting of visas

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<v Speaker 2>to potential overseas students dramatically. According to Universities Australia, visa

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<v Speaker 2>numbers are down twenty three percent, which is equivalent to

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<v Speaker 2>almost sixty thousand students and their suggestion is that the

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<v Speaker 2>way things are going, there's going to be big job losses.

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<v Speaker 2>They have nominated a figure of about fourteen thousand jobs

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<v Speaker 2>in the sector that could be lost, and bear in

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<v Speaker 2>mind this is one of Australia's major export in this street.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's up there with coal and iron ore.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a huge international money earner for Australia and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>essentially during COVID Morrison told international students go home, and

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<v Speaker 2>the way Lloyd puts it is what Albanizi is now

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<v Speaker 2>doing is telling the international students stay home. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>So the chances are this could get ugly.

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<v Speaker 1>So University's Australia is saying thousands of jobs will be

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<v Speaker 1>lost because of a policy announced by the government. Bill

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<v Speaker 1>Swan's a part of it. Will be a vice chancellor

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<v Speaker 1>in a few months, likely earning more than a million

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<v Speaker 1>dollars or so a year. How's it going to navigate

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<v Speaker 1>all that?

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<v Speaker 2>That's a very good question if I might start with

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<v Speaker 2>the observation that he doesn't have to take a million

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<v Speaker 2>dollar salary. Back in twenty sixteen, the Nobel Prize winning

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<v Speaker 2>astrophysicist Brian Schmidt whocame VC of the Australian National University,

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<v Speaker 2>a very prestigious organization. He negotiated his salary down to

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<v Speaker 2>six hundred and seventeen five hundred dollars, which was a

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<v Speaker 2>cut of more than three hundred thousand on his predecessor

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<v Speaker 2>Ian Young, and throughout his career, Schmidt continued to be

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<v Speaker 2>one of the lowest earning vcs over eight years, despite

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that you Know A and You is a

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<v Speaker 2>global ranking of thirty and. In a twenty twenty one

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<v Speaker 2>interview with The Australian Financial Review, Schmid said, I just

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<v Speaker 2>don't care that much about money. All my excess money

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<v Speaker 2>I donate, It's just not that important to me. I've

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<v Speaker 2>got enough, he said, you know, meaning I've got a

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<v Speaker 2>Nobel Prize. I guess good for him. More recently, the

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<v Speaker 2>newly appointed Vice Chancellor of the Western Sydney University, Professor

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<v Speaker 2>George Williams, revealed that he also had negotiated down his salary.

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<v Speaker 2>He said that when he went into talk money, the

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<v Speaker 2>chancellor was looking at a high figure and George was

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<v Speaker 2>looking for a lower figure, and they eventually negotiated and

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<v Speaker 2>came out somewhere in the middle. He said that his

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<v Speaker 2>starting point when negotiating his wage was that a university

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<v Speaker 2>was a public sector organization. It wasn't a business, so

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<v Speaker 2>you couldn't look for business type salaries. And he said

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<v Speaker 2>that you know, VC salaries were evidence of the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that the university had lot lost their way, and that

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<v Speaker 2>the sector was too inwardly focused and it needed to

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<v Speaker 2>reset its conversation around students and staff and the community.

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<v Speaker 2>So anyway, remuneration is only one of Shorten's considerations. The

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<v Speaker 2>other bigger ones that put him in a very interesting position,

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<v Speaker 2>I think is that before he entered politics he was

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<v Speaker 2>a union official. He spent decades advocating for better pay

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<v Speaker 2>and conditions for workers. Well, for a long time university

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<v Speaker 2>managers have been screwing their staff and now Shorten is

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<v Speaker 2>going to become part of that university management. So will

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<v Speaker 2>he back the NTU and it's fight for fair wages

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<v Speaker 2>and better working conditions for university staff? You know, is

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<v Speaker 2>he going to be vociferous on the subject of wage

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<v Speaker 2>theft by universities. Then there's of course a matter of

0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.400
<v Speaker 2>caps on the number of overseas students. If there's one

0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.520
<v Speaker 2>subject on which almost everyone in the tertiary sector agrees,

0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:56.400
<v Speaker 2>it's that caps are a dog of a policy. I mean,

0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.800
<v Speaker 2>the Vice chancellors say that, Universities Australia says that, the

0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.120
<v Speaker 2>TOU says that, And of course this has been Labor

0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.839
<v Speaker 2>Party policy. And Shorten is at the moment still a

0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.120
<v Speaker 2>Labor Party senior minister. So will Shorten joined the chorus

0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.160
<v Speaker 2>of opposition or copies big bucks and stay silent.

0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.079
<v Speaker 1>It's a good question, Mike, given what we know about

0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.520
<v Speaker 1>Bill Shorten and how he's operated in his career to day,

0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.520
<v Speaker 1>what's your view about how he's going to work with government.

0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:22.440
<v Speaker 1>Are we going to see him how spoken on some

0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:23.160
<v Speaker 1>of these issues.

0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:26.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't have a crystal ball here. I do

0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:28.600
<v Speaker 2>think it's interesting that Shorten seems to have been a

0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.719
<v Speaker 2>bit freed up in his rhetoric since he's announced that

0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.079
<v Speaker 2>he's resigning. But I suspect, you know, if he's a

0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.840
<v Speaker 2>good operator, what he will be doing is not saying

0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.520
<v Speaker 2>too much that will embarrass the government publicly. But I

0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:42.160
<v Speaker 2>would think, and I might say, I would hope that

0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:43.839
<v Speaker 2>behind the scenes he will be trying to bring a

0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:45.880
<v Speaker 2>little more rationality to some of these policies.

0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:47.640
<v Speaker 1>Mike, thanks for your time.

0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:49.160
<v Speaker 2>Thanks very much, Daniel.

0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Also in the use today, a secret audio recording of

0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:04.920
<v Speaker 1>a meeting between former Liberal leader Mara Deeming and her

0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:08.320
<v Speaker 1>then boss, Victorian opposition leader John Pisuto, has been heard

0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.640
<v Speaker 1>in federal court. In the recording, mister Pursudo tells Miss

0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.480
<v Speaker 1>Demi has serious concerns about her attendant at to Let

0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:18.000
<v Speaker 1>Women Speak rally, which was attended by international anti trance

0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:21.640
<v Speaker 1>rights activist Kelly Jade Keen and gate crashed by Victoria

0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.400
<v Speaker 1>and neo Nazis. He says Deeman's attendance was causing him

0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:27.880
<v Speaker 1>to be clobbered on social media for the perception that

0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.800
<v Speaker 1>the Victorian Liberal Party was in lockstep with Nazi protests.

0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.440
<v Speaker 1>Demi is suing Piseudo for defamation. She claims he tired

0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.440
<v Speaker 1>her with the Nazi brush in a campaign of destruction.

0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:44.080
<v Speaker 1>The trial is expected to continue for two weeks and

0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.360
<v Speaker 1>Wait Watchers has confirmed it will have to cut staff

0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:50.200
<v Speaker 1>positions from its Australian operations as it discontinues in person

0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.040
<v Speaker 1>events and focused instead on its app. While the company

0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:56.680
<v Speaker 1>did not specify how many jobs would be lost, a

0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:59.080
<v Speaker 1>recent Company of report said it had one hundred and

0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:02.640
<v Speaker 1>seventy six staff in Australia. The announcement follows news in

0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.520
<v Speaker 1>January that weight loss drug Ozimpic's parent company, Novo Nordisk,

0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:10.080
<v Speaker 1>is valued at more than five hundred billion dollars, making

0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.680
<v Speaker 1>it Europe's most valuable company. I'm Daniel James. This is

0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:15.360
<v Speaker 1>seven am. Thanks for listening,