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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: All right, then, welcome back Part two. Are we still

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Speaker 1: friends at this stage? I suppose we're still friends, threatening

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Speaker 1: that we're not going to have friendship. I can be

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Speaker 1: very fitable with my friends. Look, it's interesting sitting there

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Speaker 1: and talking about William Tyrell, and I know you know

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Speaker 1: how much emotion that invokes in me and I and

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Speaker 1: I'm not on my own. I'm sure you've spoken to

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Speaker 1: a lot of different people in researching the podcast, and

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Speaker 1: that it is just something that really triggers, is a

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Speaker 1: triggering thing for so many people who have you had

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Speaker 1: access to whilst doing the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Look, we've tried to speak to everybody. That's what that's

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Speaker 2: our job. Try and speak to everybody and then and

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Speaker 2: then go away and work out how to tell the

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Speaker 2: story from there. So William's biological family, Williams Foster family,

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Speaker 2: cops who worked on it at the time, the lead detectives,

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Speaker 2: We've tried to speak to them, with mixed success. People

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Speaker 2: who were in the street at the time, people who

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Speaker 2: became persons of interest, people who were caught up in

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Speaker 2: the investigation and charged with other offenses like Bill Spedding,

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Speaker 2: subsequently found not guilty. It's almost like you know that

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Speaker 2: old thing about dropping a stone into water and then

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Speaker 2: the ripples spread out. William went missing, and then the

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Speaker 2: ripples started to spread out, and the sheer number of

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Speaker 2: people who are affected either really close to where the

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Speaker 2: ripples start or just further and further and further out.

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Speaker 2: The sheer number of people involved is extraordinary, and all

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Speaker 2: of them have been hurt in some way either by

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Speaker 2: the fact that William went missing, and it is upsetting

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Speaker 2: or by what has followed since.

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Speaker 1: What's the saints of the community up there at the

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Speaker 1: Kendle is that.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's interesting. As time has gone on, I

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Speaker 2: think it's changed, and I've spoken to people up there,

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Speaker 2: and we were up there most recently around the tenth anniversary,

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Speaker 2: so that was a few weeks ago now and very

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Speaker 2: much which the feeling I got was people just didn't

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Speaker 2: want to talk about it anymore. It's a small it's

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Speaker 2: a village really, and it had been dominated by this

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Speaker 2: event for the past ten years, so that when people

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Speaker 2: say I'm from Kendall, oh, that's where that William Tior

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Speaker 2: went missing, and people without willing to meaning any disrespect

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Speaker 2: to his families, but they just kind of wanted that

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Speaker 2: to no longer be hanging over them, but of course

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Speaker 2: it is. And the other thing that's really surprised me

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Speaker 2: is that there was a sense of anger, not from many,

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Speaker 2: but from some, particularly who lived on Benner and Drive

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Speaker 2: at the time William went missing, so that's the road

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Speaker 2: where he was staying that weekend. A sense of anger

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Speaker 2: about maybe what happened, but also about what has followed

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Speaker 2: because for different reasons, you know, you get quite a

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Speaker 2: lot of people who go to Benerom drive effectively as

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Speaker 2: tourists sightseeing. People turn up and take photos or turn

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Speaker 2: up and film videos of themselves. And I'll be honest,

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Speaker 2: I did that as a reporter, but I didn't do

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Speaker 2: it for fun. And there's a lot of that and

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Speaker 2: it still happens, and you get people who turned up

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Speaker 2: at the time. Remember speaking to one of the neighbors

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Speaker 2: and he was angry. He talked about that first search

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Speaker 2: when you had hundreds, literally hundreds of people coming in

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Speaker 2: to look for William, and he was talking about how

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Speaker 2: stuff went missing from his property, like in his car

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Speaker 2: overnight that first night, and he thinks people were searching

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Speaker 2: for William and Nick stuff and others. A couple of

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Speaker 2: people have told me about how some of those searchers

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Speaker 2: were drinking and we're kind of not having a good

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Speaker 2: I don't think anyone's having a good time, but weren't

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Speaker 2: treating it with maybe the respect it deserved. And there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of anger about that, and I didn't expect

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Speaker 2: any of that.

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Speaker 1: The way you describe it, I can almost picture what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about. I can see how it would be

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Speaker 1: disrespectful when a three year old child the families. I

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Speaker 1: haven't spoken to the families, but biological or foster families

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Speaker 1: in a long time. How are they caping with this?

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Speaker 2: Our relationship, if I'm really honest with you, our relationship

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Speaker 2: with the two families is different. And this goes back.

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Speaker 2: I think we talked a bit about how people have

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Speaker 2: become quite partisan with this case. You're either for the

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Speaker 2: foster parents or you're against them, and it feels like,

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Speaker 2: you know, the two families have almost become two camps.

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Speaker 2: So we've spoken to both more than once quite a

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Speaker 2: few times. I've not spoken to William's biological mum. We've tried, really,

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Speaker 2: we've tried, and you can hear in the podcast some

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Speaker 2: of the work that's gone into trying to contact her.

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Speaker 2: And I've not spoken to Williams's biological dad directly, and

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Speaker 2: again you can hear some of the work that's gone

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Speaker 2: into trying to contact him. And we're definitely if they

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Speaker 2: wanted to contact us, I think they know how to

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Speaker 2: do it, or at least I hope they do. And

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Speaker 2: I've said it in the podcast. If you do want

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Speaker 2: to talk about anything, even if it's just to criticize me,

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Speaker 2: please do so. Spoken to other members of that family, though,

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Speaker 2: how are they feeling. I don't think you ever recover

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Speaker 2: from there, this kind of a loss of a child.

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Speaker 2: And remember, for them, it's a double loss. So William's

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Speaker 2: taken into foster care, so who's taken away from that family?

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Speaker 2: And then they're told the state is effective going to

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Speaker 2: look after him, the state, the minister becomes his parent,

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Speaker 2: and then he goes missing. So to have that double loss,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of anger, and there's a lot of trauma,

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Speaker 2: and I think it's complicated and it makes that relationship difficult.

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Speaker 2: The only thing we can do with everyone, and we

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Speaker 2: do with them as well, is just try and be

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Speaker 2: as honest about what we're doing and why we're doing.

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Speaker 2: And we do try and reflect what they're feeling and

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Speaker 2: what they say in the podcast very much so. And

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Speaker 2: then there's the foster family, and the relationship with them

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Speaker 2: is different, and it's almost funny. I've met the foster

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Speaker 2: parents quite a few times over the years, and we

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Speaker 2: meet in safe houses or we meet in pubs, and

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Speaker 2: when we meet, we turn our phones off. And all

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Speaker 2: of that might sound paranoid if it wasn't for the

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Speaker 2: fact that they do know they've been under police surveillance.

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Speaker 2: They know that they've had listening devices in their house,

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Speaker 2: They've had COVID cameras outside their house, They've had people

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Speaker 2: listening to their phone calls. They've had listening devices in

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Speaker 2: their car, They've had undercovered police officers sent in to

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Speaker 2: try to talk to them. They know all of that

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Speaker 2: has happened, so they've got every reason to be paranoid.

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Speaker 2: It might still be happening now. So when we have

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Speaker 2: those conversations, it feels a bit cloak and dagger, but

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Speaker 2: also got to say, I can see why they want

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Speaker 2: to do that, but when it comes to how they're responding,

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Speaker 2: I think it's some of the same emotions. It's loss

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Speaker 2: and trauma. I mean, I've seen I've seen them in

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Speaker 2: tears a lot, and I've seen them grappling with the

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Speaker 2: loss and the effect it's had on them, and then

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Speaker 2: the loss of essentially becoming Certainly Williams foster mother has

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Speaker 2: become the suspect. The police have said that in court

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Speaker 2: they believe she had something to do with William's disappearance,

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Speaker 2: and the pressure that must come with that must be immense.

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Speaker 2: She's an incredibly strong and tough woman, But I've seen her.

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Speaker 2: I've seen her cry and I've seen her broken, and

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Speaker 2: she might not. She's also very private and probably wouldn't

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Speaker 2: appreciate me saying any of this, but I've seen the

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Speaker 2: emotions she must be feeling almost take control. And the

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Speaker 2: same with Williams foster dad. And you know, I'm never

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Speaker 2: going to know what it's like to lose a three

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Speaker 2: year old child, at least I hope I never know.

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Speaker 2: I can't imagine what it's like to be in that positions.

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Speaker 2: But they keep turning up and they keep talking, and

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Speaker 2: same goes for biological family. We keep talking as best

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Speaker 2: we can, and you've got to give credit to both

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Speaker 2: of them for that.

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Speaker 1: I look the sadness and why I ask about both

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Speaker 1: families is that I understand the impact that a disappearance

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Speaker 1: or a crime of the nature of William's disappearance has

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Speaker 1: on families and people with connections with the child. And

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Speaker 1: then that coupled with all the controversy and turmoil surrounding

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Speaker 1: the investigation, and I can't separate myself from that because

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Speaker 1: I'm embedded in the content and I just feel like

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Speaker 1: it's it's so unfair, Like the one thing that you

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Speaker 1: would hope as families, as with the bearable kids, when

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Speaker 1: the barable kids disappeared, that everyone would be united heading

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Speaker 1: like as in law enforcement, the governments whatever, united in

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Speaker 1: finding out what's happened to what's happened to their loved ones.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, with the William case, they see the two

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Speaker 1: of them frow in the arguments, the internal conflict within

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Speaker 1: the police. What's happened to me? And that must give

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Speaker 1: must not give them a great deal of confidence And.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, and I look, there's a part of me

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Speaker 2: that really hopes the police have got this right. So

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Speaker 2: the current detectives when they come out, and I've seen

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Speaker 2: them say it in court, we believe that the foster

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Speaker 2: mother had something to do with what happened to William.

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Speaker 2: I mean bluntly. They believe that William maybe fell from

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Speaker 2: the verandah in the house, there was some kind of accident,

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Speaker 2: and that she chose to cover that up, almost a

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Speaker 2: snap decision to cover it up, and that she drove

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Speaker 2: his body away and disposed of it. There's a crossroads

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Speaker 2: a few hundred meters away and we can get in

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Speaker 2: to all of that. But that's what the police think

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Speaker 2: as far as we can know, and that's what they've said.

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Speaker 2: And there's a part of me that hopes they've got

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Speaker 2: it right, because, well, A, then we know what happened,

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Speaker 2: and we know who's responsible, and maybe we can find

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Speaker 2: where William is in the grieving process, can move forward

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Speaker 2: for all those people. But also because if the police

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Speaker 2: have got it right, then everything they've done to that family,

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Speaker 2: the Foster family, is kind of justified. And I'm talking

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Speaker 2: about their lives have been destroyed by the police investigation.

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Speaker 2: They've been on the front page of newspapers identified as

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Speaker 2: the suspect. Their friends, their neighbors, their families must be

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Speaker 2: looking at them and thinking, did you dispose of a

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Speaker 2: child's body? Did you do kind of the worst kind

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Speaker 2: of crime you can do. Everyone must be questioning them.

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Speaker 2: I know they've lost work. I know that their lives

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Speaker 2: have I mean, they haven't just kind of hit the buffers.

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Speaker 2: They've been crumpled. But if the police have got it right,

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Speaker 2: then that's kind of justified. And so there's a part

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Speaker 2: of me that hopes the police have got it right.

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Speaker 2: But if they have, nobody's been charged. We haven't seen

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Speaker 2: any of that evidence. There's nothing public yet to back

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Speaker 2: up what the police are.

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Speaker 1: Saying, Dan, can I make the point and I hear

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Speaker 1: what you're saying there. I was always considered someone that

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Speaker 1: played hardball when I go after investigations. I make no

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Speaker 1: excuses for that whatsoever. But there's lines that you don't cross.

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Speaker 1: What I've seen occur in relation to the foster mother,

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Speaker 1: the Foster family, I think it's been absolutely brutal. And

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Speaker 1: I asked the question. I asked the question, what if

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Speaker 1: they got it wrong?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we go back to in the first part of

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Speaker 2: this conversation, we said that your investigation of William Til's disappearance,

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Speaker 2: part of that was described as the worst case of

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Speaker 2: malicious prosecution in the state. If the police have got

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Speaker 2: it wrong, and it is a big if, but if

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Speaker 2: they have, then I think you're looking at the same

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Speaker 2: kind of judgment here, partly because it's the same tactics.

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Speaker 2: So you've talked about how you go in hard when

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Speaker 2: you were detective, and you know, as I understand it,

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Speaker 2: you're kind of thinking, was I've got this person of interest,

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Speaker 2: there's some evidence that means that they're worth looking at.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do everything it takes to either establish

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Speaker 2: their innocence or their guilt and it doesn't matter which,

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Speaker 2: but at least I can tick them off the list then,

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Speaker 2: And you would go in as hard as you knew

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Speaker 2: how because you we're trying to catch a killer, to

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Speaker 2: solve a homicide, and you'd use pressure tactics. So put

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Speaker 2: them under surveillance, pressure them, see if they would break.

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Speaker 2: The same tactics have been used against William's foster power.

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Speaker 2: Put them under pressure, see if they will break, use surveillance.

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Speaker 2: It's exactly the same approach. And if yours was found

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Speaker 2: to be wrong, and if theirs is wrong, then it

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Speaker 2: absolutely deserves the same kind of public inquiry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'll just address that, and I understand the

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Speaker 1: concept of what you're saying, but there's levels and degrees

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Speaker 1: in regards to Bill Spedding situation. There were charges laid

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Speaker 1: and I was comfortable. And when I say charges laid,

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Speaker 1: I didn't investigate it. I had specialists investigated. And I

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Speaker 1: don't want the drag Bill Spedding back into this, but

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Speaker 1: so we're just I'll just say it in a very

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Speaker 1: general term. It was investigated, evidence was obtained. Legal services

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Speaker 1: say there's enough to charge a person, the person's charge

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Speaker 1: and the courts acquitted the person. Okay, And I'll ask

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Speaker 1: you this because I want to keep it on track

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Speaker 1: with the podcast that you've got with the foster parents.

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Speaker 1: I sat in court when they were charged with the

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Speaker 1: assault matters, which was very public, and I saw the

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Speaker 1: whole investigative team sit there, and I'll make these comments,

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Speaker 1: and I've earned the right to make these comments. That's

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Speaker 1: not how I'd manage an investigation, having all those people

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Speaker 1: sitting in the local court matter. When you're looking for

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Speaker 1: a three year old job.

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Speaker 2: You're talking about the detectives from the strike from US.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, but we can talk about that. That's

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Speaker 1: just me venting because I'm really at the point with

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Speaker 1: this whole investigation that there's so many things that need

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Speaker 1: to be said that haven't been said. And I'm asking

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Speaker 1: you on your podcast. I sat in court during that

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Speaker 1: and I saw a senior detective giving evidence saying we

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Speaker 1: know where William Tyrell is. And then the question was asked,

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Speaker 1: well where is he yea to which the person didn't

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Speaker 1: have a I don't think a reasonable explanation. He's saying

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Speaker 1: under oath, we know where William Tyrell is. Then in

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Speaker 1: that same and correct me if I'm wrong, because I

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Speaker 1: was in there as an observer, you're in there as

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Speaker 1: a journalist reporting on it, that they in fact told

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Speaker 1: William's foster mother that they know what's happened to William,

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Speaker 1: they know where William is and again acknowledge that under oath.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and both of these things happen, and if they don't,

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Speaker 2: then it's extraordinary because you're right. What did happen was

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Speaker 2: to the detectives on the strike force go to Williams

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Speaker 2: foster mother to serve with the summons to give evidence

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Speaker 2: at the Crime Commission, which is this hugely powerful, very

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Speaker 2: secretive body. You're not even allowed to tell anyone you've

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Speaker 2: received a summon. So they turn up, they give her

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Speaker 2: this thing and they say to her, you'll have to

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Speaker 2: live with it. We know what happened to William, we

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Speaker 2: know how, we know why they're telling her. We know

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Speaker 2: as a fact what you did to William. And that's

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Speaker 2: one thing. So I hope they've got the evidence to

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Speaker 2: back it up. But then in court, this detective he's asked,

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Speaker 2: do you know what happened to William? And he says yes,

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Speaker 2: and then he's asked, well, have you found William's body

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Speaker 2: and he says no, and he's asked again, but you

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Speaker 2: said you know what happened to William and he says, yes,

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Speaker 2: I do, Well have you found him? No, And the

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Speaker 2: two things just seem to be in like stark contrast.

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Speaker 2: But then later at a different court hearing, that same

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Speaker 2: detective is asked, so you know what happened to William

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Speaker 2: and he says something different. He says, well, that was

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Speaker 2: one of the theories, so point he says, yep, we

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Speaker 2: know what happened to William. And then later he says,

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Speaker 2: this is one of the theories. And those two things

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Speaker 2: seem in stark contrast as well, and you're just left thinking,

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Speaker 2: I really hope you guys have got the evidence to

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Speaker 2: back this up.

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Speaker 1: People that listen to the podcast, the upcoming episodes, and

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Speaker 1: are they are you going to take them into a

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Speaker 1: deep dive in those those sort of things that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, because I found I found that watching quite remarkable,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that it wasn't reported on the way

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Speaker 1: I thought it would have been. So I'm sitting there

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Speaker 1: and I was gobsmacked what was coming out, but it

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Speaker 1: didn't really get it.

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Speaker 2: Didn't get reported, reported on and that. Okay, so I

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Speaker 2: had the same thought process. But but when you're in

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Speaker 2: court as a daily news reporter, you've got maybe four

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Speaker 2: hundred words to describe everything from that day in court,

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Speaker 2: and all the other reporters in there were daily court reporters,

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Speaker 2: and for them, maybe that aspect that you're talking about

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Speaker 2: and I picked up on, it wasn't the big news

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Speaker 2: from the day, or maybe not. All of them have

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Speaker 2: followed the case for as long as you have and

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Speaker 2: I have, or as closely, and so maybe it just

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Speaker 2: didn't stand out to them. But I remember hearing that

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Speaker 2: and thinking that's a big deal, and then it wasn't

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Speaker 2: reported the next day. But that is what the podcast

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Speaker 2: can do. So we're telling this story differently. We've got

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Speaker 2: way more than four hundred words, but also we get

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Speaker 2: part of what the podcast does is go back to

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Speaker 2: the beginning of the investigation, so the moment of that

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Speaker 2: triple zero call where William's foster mother says he's gone missing,

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Speaker 2: and then we walk the investigation through from that point

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Speaker 2: over the years that followed, saying this was what was

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Speaker 2: done right and this was what was done wrong, and

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Speaker 2: there's both, but it allows people to understand it differently

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Speaker 2: because most people, like everyone over the past ten years,

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Speaker 2: have followed the William Tyrell disappearance in headlines or things

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Speaker 2: they've seen on their phone, or there's something on the radio,

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Speaker 2: or there's a bit on TV which is talking about

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Speaker 2: some evidence that came out today, But that evidence is

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Speaker 2: actually something that happens three years ago, and everything is

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Speaker 2: kind of in short bursts and is out of sequence.

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Speaker 2: No one before now has said, right, We're going to

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Speaker 2: go right from the beginning the whole way through, put

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Speaker 2: everything in the order in which it happened, and let

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Speaker 2: you understand it differently. And when you do that, so

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Speaker 2: I talked about this timeline we've drawn up. When you

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Speaker 2: see things put in that kind of order, it completely

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Speaker 2: changes the way you look at it.

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Speaker 1: I'm starting the longer I stay out of the cops,

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Speaker 1: I'm starting to look at it from a media point

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Speaker 1: of view rather than the policing point of view. Probably

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Speaker 1: still drift back into the policing point of view more

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Speaker 1: more not, But yeah, I see so many things come up.

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Speaker 1: I know when I gave and this is whine in

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Speaker 1: the back four years or so ago, when I gave

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Speaker 1: evidence at my criminal hearing I was saying things that

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Speaker 1: became public record on the reason I was looking at

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Speaker 1: a particular person, and I think that was very significant

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Speaker 1: what was out there. And to balance out where you've

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Speaker 1: got the Commissioner of Police orce soon you're police saying

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Speaker 1: there's only one suspect, and then some of the things

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Speaker 1: that I said on public record that I was looking

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Speaker 1: at when I was heading up the investigation, and that

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Speaker 1: just again, that just seems to be forgotten, just a brushstroke.

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Speaker 1: You're going to take the listener in this podcast into

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Speaker 1: that type of.

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Speaker 2: Depth we are. And the other thing we're going to

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Speaker 2: do is there's a whole bunch of different names that

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Speaker 2: have come up in this investigation as what you guys

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Speaker 2: in the cops called persons of interest, which basically meant

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Speaker 2: someone who requires further investigation. There's a whole bunch of

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Speaker 2: names that have come up, and we've heard stuff about

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Speaker 2: them in the public, and then we've just heard nothing,

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Speaker 2: you know, the inquest and the cops have stopped talking

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Speaker 2: about them. We're going to go back to those and say, okay,

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Speaker 2: so why did we start to hear about these people

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Speaker 2: and why has it stopped? Because to my knowledge, they

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Speaker 2: haven't been ruled out. No, there's no official body, not

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Speaker 2: the coroner, not the cops, have ever said this is

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Speaker 2: why we stopped looking at these people. And if there

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Speaker 2: isn't a reason why they stop looking at those people.

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Speaker 2: But the police are now saying it must be the

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Speaker 2: foster mother, which they seem to be saying, then how

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Speaker 2: can they be so sure if we don't know for sure,

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Speaker 2: they haven't ruled those people out. And we're going to

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Speaker 2: look at those people, and I promise you in more

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Speaker 2: depth than they've been reported on before, because we've got

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Speaker 2: the time, and we've got the resources, and we've also

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Speaker 2: got evidence that just hasn't been made public before from

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Speaker 2: different sources that we've collected over the years. But there's

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of information out there that's never really

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Speaker 2: been reported on.

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Speaker 1: I'd be interested to see that, and I think that's

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Speaker 1: been been my frustration that over the years. And it's

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Speaker 1: been about two years now since the foster mother was identified.

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Speaker 2: It's been longer how long it's been, it's been about

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Speaker 2: three and a bit years. And I can remember when

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Speaker 2: it happened. I wasn't in the country, but I remember

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Speaker 2: the news breaking and my first thought was well, they

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Speaker 2: must have got something because they were so confident. Front

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Speaker 2: page of the paper, police quoted saying basically, we're close

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Speaker 2: to cracking this case. I remember thinking, well, they must

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Speaker 2: have got something to be that confident, but we still

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Speaker 2: haven't heard what.

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Speaker 1: It is and exactly. And I think I've made a comment,

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Speaker 1: or I'm starting to make public comments. It's time to

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Speaker 1: put up or shut up. You can't, yeah, throw like that,

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Speaker 1: not present some evidence to back it up. But my

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Speaker 1: concern has been in when I was running the investigation,

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Speaker 1: people that I considered we call them person persons of interest,

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Speaker 1: and the interpretation might be a suspect, but the bar

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Speaker 1: is very low to be a person of interest. It's

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Speaker 1: just someone we've got to have a little look.

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Speaker 2: A little further, look a thousand of people on that list.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And so we've got those persons of interest,

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Speaker 1: and I look at opportunity, capability motive. Motive is a

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Speaker 1: subjective thing. Opportunity is the one that I look at

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Speaker 1: a great deal when you've got no forensic evidence. And

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Speaker 1: this has taken you into the world of homicide detective thinking.

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Speaker 1: When you've got no forensic evidence, opportunities is quite often

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Speaker 1: the only thing that you can eliminate a person by,

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Speaker 1: as in, they didn't have the opportunity because they weren't

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Speaker 1: in the location. So a lot of these people that

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Speaker 1: I call persons of interest, they would have been very

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Speaker 1: hard to eliminate. And to say definity that person hasn't

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Speaker 1: done it, well, I need the evidence to show they

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Speaker 1: couldn't have done it because they are with someone. Okay,

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Speaker 1: if that makes sense. That's what's worried me about this narrative,

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Speaker 1: that there's only one person. We're focusing on this one

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Speaker 1: person and being the being the foster mother.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you've got to think if you were a

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Speaker 2: defense barrister, if if she ever were to get caught,

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Speaker 2: and she's not been charged with anything, but if she

432
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 2: ever were, then it's almost the first thing your defense

433
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 2: barrister looks at is, well, what about person X, person Y,

434
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 2: person's ed all of whom we know the police have

435
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: looked at, all of whom we've heard this evidence against.

436
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 2: Have you ruled them out?

437
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 1: How have you eliminated?

438
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 2: Well, if you haven't, then there's no way you can

439
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 2: say it's this other person. So we are we are

440
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: going to be looking at that and the other thing

441
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 2: that's happening is because we've now released some of the

442
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,959
Speaker 2: episodes and done some of the reporting for news dot

443
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 2: Com dot AUE are contacting us with tips and things

444
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 2: that they've seen or heard or tried to report to

445
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 2: crime stoppers at the time. And there's been a couple

446
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: of those so far that I've looked at and thought, ah, okay,

447
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: that should probably get passed on to the coroner, because

448
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 2: there's stuff that's come into us that I've not heard

449
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,719
Speaker 2: as far as I know, hasn't come out publicly, but

450
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 2: it seems like the kind of thing you'd definitely want

451
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 2: to follow up. So we're actually passing stuff onto the

452
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 2: coroner at the moment, and maybe, you know, maybe those

453
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 2: aren't the key bit of evidence that will make a difference,

454
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 2: but what it does show is there's still things out

455
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 2: there that haven't been tied down. And until you've done

456
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 2: all of that, I don't see how you can be

457
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: so certain it's this other person unless you've got witness evidence,

458
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: forensic evidence, something as solid as that. And if you have,

459
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 2: why haven't you charged her? Of course, we've got to say.

460
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 2: She protests her innocence one hundred percent, has always said

461
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: she has nothing to do with what happened to.

462
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: Any Well, it's when it was leaked, and I say

463
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 1: leaked the information that a brief of evidence has been

464
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: provided to the DPP. Again, I've lost track of how

465
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: long that was, probably twelve months ago, maybe longer. We

466
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 1: call them in policing sufficiency advising, so you present all

467
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: the evidence, so you go to the DPP on complex

468
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: matters or gray area type matters and they come back

469
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: and say, yeah, there's sufficient evidence to proceed with this

470
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: sort of a safeguard to check. I've never seen any

471
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: take that long, and I've sent some very very complicated

472
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: sufficiency advisings to the DPP and they come back a

473
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: lot quicker than a lot quicker than that. So I

474
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: met a loss why it's taken so long. I also

475
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: want to address I've seen articles that flowed on so

476
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: you not just the podcasts articles going out and I

477
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: think the headlines were and coreact me if I'm wrong

478
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: with something like four witnesses of William to all matter

479
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: haven't been spoken to by police or about sightings or

480
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: four sightings.

481
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was five at that point, yees, so people

482
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: who had that we'd spoken to, who had contacted crime Stoppers,

483
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 2: where you can report information to the police. Contacted crime

484
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: stoppers with different sightings or different bits of potential evidence.

485
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 2: Some of them sightings are William at different times, or

486
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: people they thought were William. There was one other who

487
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 2: had seen a car and a driver that matched that

488
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 2: in a TV appeal for information. I think the same

489
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 2: day or the night before. They'd contacted crime Stoppers and

490
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: said here's this information, and they've just never heard back.

491
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: I've spoken to all I've spoken to all five of them,

492
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: and they seemed credible, like they didn't seem like they

493
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: were making this up. They might be wrong, or it

494
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 2: might not be important, but it struck me as the

495
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: kind of thing that'd be worth following up. So have

496
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: things fallen through the gaps. But the thing about those

497
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 2: five is that it's now eight So three more people

498
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 2: have got in touch with us and said I saw

499
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 2: this or here's something that I knew at the time,

500
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 2: and I contacted crime stoppers and I never heard back.

501
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: And two of those are the information that we've passed

502
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: on to the coroner, which I've looked at and I've said, Okay,

503
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: not only does that person sound credible, but that actually

504
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: sounds like it might be important, like massively, the odds

505
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 2: are massively weighed against it being that important. I get that,

506
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: But if they weren't followed up at the time, how

507
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: can the police be certain they're not missing something important.

508
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: Well, I read that article with interest because just prior

509
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: to me being taken off the investigation, I completely a

510
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: comprehensives are in charge statement to present to the coroner,

511
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: detailing everything that was done with the investigation, why we

512
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: made these decisions, how the sightings were treated, like we

513
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: had like a matrix of how the sightings would be treated.

514
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: And if someone phones up and says I saw a

515
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: boy in Spider Man suit five years after William disappeared,

516
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: we don't get excited about that. So there was a rating,

517
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: a way that we assess the information, which ones need

518
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,479
Speaker 1: to be followed up, which ones don't, and we're in

519
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: undated with information. I would be more comfortable, and I'm

520
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: saying this is a member of the public now, if

521
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: an article goes out to the media along those lines,

522
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: that the police address those issues, Because when I was

523
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: running the investigation, if things like that came out, I

524
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: would address, explain the situation, give the public confidence. But

525
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: when you did that article, and I'm not sure if

526
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: you were even the author of the article, but the

527
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: did the police respond to the we're explain what they're doing.

528
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: No, they're not going to comment because the Kate willing

529
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 2: Tiller's disappearances before the inquest. So I get your point

530
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 2: with that kind of thing, where we're saying, well, here's

531
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: some potential problems. It can cause the public to lose

532
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: faith in the police, and the police aren't coming out

533
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 2: and saying well, actually, you should have faith in us

534
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: because of this and this and this and this is

535
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: how we dealt with it. Yeah, they haven't said anything

536
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 2: at all. The other thing that struck me about to

537
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: be really candid about this was we got in touch

538
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 2: with crime Stoppers about that before the article went out,

539
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: and I said, here are the names of the people

540
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: we've spoken to and an outline of what they've said.

541
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 2: They told crime Stoppers at the time. I think I

542
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 2: gave them the dates in terms of the years at least,

543
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: and I said, do you want to you know, say anything,

544
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: Do you want to correct us, do you want to this,

545
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 2: do you wist to have a chat off the record,

546
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 2: or do you want to make any kind of comment,

547
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 2: and the comment we got back from crime Stoppers was look,

548
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: forgive me. I can't remember the exact words. We was

549
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: basically saying, we can't comment on stuff that is impossible

550
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 2: for us to prove whether or not it's true, and

551
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: these people might have got it wrong. And I just

552
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 2: remember looking at it and thinking, but I gave you

553
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 2: the name, and I gave you an outline of what

554
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 2: they were saying, and don't you keep records? But that

555
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 2: was it. We just got, you know, we get a

556
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 2: few lines written down in an email. There's not an

557
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 2: attempt to actually engage and say, what's the greater good here?

558
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 2: What do we need to be saying to make sure

559
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: this is reported accurately and people understand what's going on.

560
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 2: It's very defensive the journalist police relationship on this story,

561
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: accepting those cases where stuff has been leaked to the

562
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: media and then it's it's right.

563
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: Look, it might be an explanation on that. Just as

564
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: you're talking like there's a degree of people that provide

565
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 1: information that crime Stoppers can do it on an anonymous basis.

566
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: That might be part of it, that wishy washy message,

567
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: But that's something that could probably be if someone explained

568
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: the situation. We can't give out the details, but yeah

569
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: they can confirmed perhaps, But see again, this is all

570
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: this misinformation. So what I'm hoping, without putting pressure on

571
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: your dan, is the definitive story of what happened to

572
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: Wim Turl comes out. Not to not because I've got

573
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 1: a vested interest in it, It's because it's what needs

574
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 1: to be done. There is too many people theorizing, speculating

575
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: and lives being destroyed about this whole investigation, and if

576
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: it's been done wrong, we all need to be held

577
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: accountable and make sure this doesn't happen again.

578
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, look we do, and I say we because the

579
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 2: media do as well, because we've got a part in that.

580
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 2: And that is what we're attempting with this podcast is

581
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 2: the definitive telling, but also a fair telling, an honest telling.

582
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 2: That's all that we're interested in doing with this version

583
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: of it. But the one thing we can't do is

584
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 2: tell the definitive story or what happened to William. And

585
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 2: I've said this to everyone, to his foster family, biological family.

586
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 2: I said, we're not going to find William better people

587
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,399
Speaker 2: than us have tried, Cops have tried. The inquest team

588
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: are trying still. But what we can do is give

589
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 2: the definitive story of the investigation to find William, So

590
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 2: right back to the beginning, what was done and not done.

591
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 2: So that's our job is to look at what was

592
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 2: done to find William and tell that story. Because the

593
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 2: sad truth of it is ten years on, I don't

594
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 2: think anybody has any evidence of what happened to William.

595
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: Well you can take this and people listening can take

596
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 1: it for what it is. Look deeply in the evidence.

597
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: It was already available when I was running the investigation,

598
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: and I think you might find this answers.

599
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 2: That's what a lot of cops say, isn't it that

600
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 2: the answer is always in the files and you look

601
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 2: at other cases. So Daniel Morcambe, the boy went missing

602
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 2: up in Queensland tragically, so years later the police do

603
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,399
Speaker 2: identify and do arrest and do convict the person responsible

604
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 2: for his abduction. I think that person's name was in

605
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 2: the file. But these investigations is you know better than me.

606
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: You are dealing with so much information and managing that

607
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 2: and processing that and pulling out of it, which is

608
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: your job and the other cops job. Is to pull

609
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 2: out that thread that matters and then follow that one.

610
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 2: That's a high pressure.

611
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: It's a high pressure job, but it's a job that

612
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: you evolve into. You don't get leading. You don't lead

613
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: an investigation of that nature unless you've got the experience.

614
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: And I think I've said this to you in just

615
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: off the cuff comments that if I didn't think I

616
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: was up to the task, I would have stepped away

617
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: from that investigation because of the pressure. But twenty years

618
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: of experience doing this, so I felt right for it.

619
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: And this is not me justifying my position when I

620
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 1: say the answers might be in there. My concern is if,

621
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: as you've quite rightly pointed out, if the police have

622
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: got it wrong with the foster mother. Where I'm looking

623
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: at the extent of the surveillance that's been done and

624
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: what's come out in court, that would occupy a lot

625
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: of police time. What's happened to the other people, the

626
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: people who I were looking at, the people that are

627
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: before I was taken off that I wanted explored through

628
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: the inquest are you going to touch on that or

629
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 1: a will that come out?

630
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 2: Yeah? We are, yeah, because some of those names that

631
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 2: you were looking at are names where that have become

632
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 2: publicquently and through different means, Like when you were put

633
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 2: on trial and convicted, we heard a lot of evidence

634
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: about the people or the person you were looking at

635
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: at the time, and in the inquest other names have

636
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 2: come up that actually, thinking about it, the strikeforce, when

637
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: you were leading it was starting to look at one

638
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 2: or two other people. We're going to look at those

639
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 2: names and say, well, what's the evidence that has been collected,

640
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 2: and what's the reason, if any, that we can establish

641
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,359
Speaker 2: that people have stopped looking at them? Because and this

642
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 2: is something the foster mother, William's foster mother said, so

643
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 2: she released she's basically said nothing since she became identified

644
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 2: as a suspect. So she released a written statement. But

645
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 2: her point is in that statement she says basically, if

646
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: the police have been because she says she's innocent, if

647
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 2: the police have been wrongly looking at me, then who

648
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 2: have they missed over the last five years? And that

649
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 2: becomes really important. And I know there's a couple of ifs,

650
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: like if the police have got it wrong, then who

651
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 2: have they missed? But if the police have got it wrong,

652
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 2: that means the person who is responsible for William's disappearance

653
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 2: is still out there somewhere, maybe with someone the police

654
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 2: were looking at at some point because there were so

655
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 2: many people as a thousand people on your persons of

656
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 2: interest list, and maybe the opportunity to gather the evidence

657
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 2: against that person has now been lost because memories fade,

658
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 2: forensic evidence can be destroyed, witnesses die, people get old.

659
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 2: And if that's the case, oh that's a tragedy.

660
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: I'd say it's beyond the tragedy. It's unforgivable. If that's happened,

661
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: then I'm going to sit and say strongly on this.

662
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: If people that I were following up haven't been followed

663
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: up merely on the basis that I was following up

664
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 1: those people, I think it's disgraceful.

665
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 2: That is something that it did strike me. So when

666
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 2: you left the police, and you left the police because

667
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 2: let's not beat around the bush, you were investigating someone

668
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: in relation to Williams Seal's disappearance and recorded conversations with

669
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 2: that person, which you say you had every right to do,

670
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: which the police force said you didn't, and so they

671
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 2: took you off the investigation. At that point, it very

672
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 2: much felt as an outsider looking in that you were

673
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 2: just about to start the inquest. You'd got your investigation

674
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 2: focused on very few people. The inquest was also focusing

675
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 2: the same way as the police were thinking. And then

676
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,280
Speaker 2: you were taken off the investigation and suddenly the focus

677
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 2: of the inquest under the police investigation that followed swerved

678
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 2: away to other people. So things stopped and things changed.

679
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 2: You got to hope that that was done with good reason.

680
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: Well, the inquest was at my request that I was

681
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: prepping for the inquest. That's why I did the statement.

682
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,760
Speaker 1: Prepping for the inquest with a very clear strategy in mind.

683
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: That search, I think it was twenty eighteen, the forensic

684
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: search that was done so I could give evidence before

685
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 1: the coroner and say that based on all this information,

686
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: I can say that William's disappearance wasn't through misadventure, that's

687
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: human intervention. That was the purpose of a forensic search.

688
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: Great deal of money was spent making sure everything was

689
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,439
Speaker 1: documented and recorded and we went there and so that's

690
00:41:55,480 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: been my concern, Dan, And this is why I'm happy

691
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: that you're doing the podcast, because I think these things

692
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: can be sometimes lost because I don't have the faith

693
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: in the media fully comprehending and these reasons, as you said,

694
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: the amount of words you can put in an article

695
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: when you attend the court. Are you for me with

696
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,280
Speaker 1: the case from the start? I saw this with bearable.

697
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: These long protracted investigations tend to get points amissed, and

698
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: when you can tied all together, the picture is a

699
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: lot clearer.

700
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.

701
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,919
Speaker 1: So I'm hoping with your podcast. I'm glad you're doing

702
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: the podcast because I'm anytime I speak about William Tyrol,

703
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm setting myself up to be criticized

704
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: and I'm just trying to justify my position.

705
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, and I'll be blunt. You are going to

706
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 2: get criticized a bit in the podcast as well, because

707
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 2: I don't agree with everything you did. And again, it's

708
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 2: very easy as the armchair critics to say, well, that

709
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 2: could have been done differently or better. So, yeah, you know,

710
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 2: you might not be quite as happy with it when

711
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 2: it comes out, but that is the intention to try

712
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: and say, look, this is the best version of what

713
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 2: has happened, and one hundred percent doing it has changed

714
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 2: the way I've looked at that investigation, So I think

715
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 2: listening to it will change the way other people listen.

716
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: Well, I'd be a coward if I didn't say that,

717
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: if I said, I know, I don't want it exposed.

718
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: Let's just move on. Let's forget about the week. My

719
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: life's pretty good at the moment, like I don't need

720
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: to be dragged back into the whim to all matter.

721
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: And I know we had conversations on the tenth anniversary.

722
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 1: I spoke to you and just get your advice as

723
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: a friend and someone that understands the media. When I've

724
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: been reached out to make comments on the tenth anniversary,

725
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: and I had one night when the TV network contacted

726
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: me and said would you like to make a comment,

727
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: And I said no, And then I thought about it,

728
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: and I'm sitting at home thinking, you're not the type

729
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: of person you thought you were, Gary, if you haven't

730
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 1: got the tenacity to stand up and make comments that

731
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: you think need to be made. And I came to

732
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: the realization that if I don't speak up, no one

733
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: else is going to speak up. So instead of saying no,

734
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do a stand up, I end up.

735
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: I think I had five TV crews in my house

736
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: at week.

737
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love the fact that you said you asked

738
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 2: my advice as a friend, because I'm pretty sure you

739
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 2: have never taken.

740
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:18,879
Speaker 1: My I don't take your friendly or not.

741
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 2: I don't think I would have tried to say, don't do.

742
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: But you know, let's the issue, the issue I have

743
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 1: with this, So with your podcast, whatever comes out needs

744
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 1: to come out. We can't sweep this under the carpet.

745
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 2: Look just on that point. So during the timeline, you

746
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 2: do notice that William's foster mother publicly at your trial

747
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 2: supports you and publicly criticizes senior New South Wales police officers.

748
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: And subsequent to that you do see that she becomes

749
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 2: a focus of the police investigation and then is publicly

750
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: identified as their suspect. But you know, it's like that thing,

751
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 2: correlation is not causation. I've got no evidence to suggest that,

752
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 2: you know, the one thing led to the other, but

753
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 2: certainly one thing followed another, and there was a complete

754
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 2: shift of focus in who the police were looking at

755
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 2: between your time on it and between the police investigation

756
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 2: now And the other thing that's interesting is that you

757
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 2: had the inquest which ran for period of years and

758
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,240
Speaker 2: identified a number of people who we hadn't heard about publicly.

759
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 2: But even the inquest wasn't looking at William's foster parents

760
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 2: as potential people who might be involved. The lawyer who's

761
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 2: leading that inquest stands up at the beginning and he

762
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 2: says something to the effect of, you know, it's very

763
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 2: very few cases where child goes missing and it's who's involved,

764
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 2: something like it's a few percent, but this might be

765
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: one of those cases. So even the inquest isn't looking

766
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 2: at Williams foster parents, but the police are now, So

767
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: I really hope they have got the evidence to back

768
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 2: that up, because it's a It's the worst kind of

769
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 2: thing you could say about a person.

770
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 1: We looked at the prospect of William being involved in

771
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: the excellent and someone cover of that. But why cover that?

772
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: And the theory can correct me if I'm wrong. That

773
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: seems to be being need to beer at the moment

774
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 1: wim fill off the balcony, and then in a yeah,

775
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: a moment of I can't even articulate why personally if

776
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: the child fill off that balcony there, I can I'm

777
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: going to cover.

778
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,919
Speaker 2: This up, you know what? This is where you start

779
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 2: to get into like the misinformation and the speculation that

780
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 2: surrounds this because there's both. There's a lot so we

781
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 2: know that Williams. We do know for a fact that

782
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 2: William's foster mother has become the focus of police attention

783
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 2: because it was on the front page of the Daily

784
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:18,879
Speaker 2: Telegraph newspaper with a police source basically saying that, And

785
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 2: we know that the police have pretty much confirmed that

786
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 2: in court that this is what they think happened, or

787
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: we've heard evidence in court that seems to confirm that.

788
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: But we've heard no suggestion as to why she might

789
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 2: have done that, like what's the motive for doing it.

790
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:43,800
Speaker 2: We have heard a lot of speculation in the mainstream

791
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 2: media and on social media, which wild speculation, but in

792
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 2: both we've heard speculation about possible motives, but we've also

793
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: heard speculation about all kinds of other things to do

794
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 2: with this case. There was one article shortly after Williams's

795
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 2: fosterman was identified as kind of the lead suspect. There

796
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 2: was an article on the headline was something like inside

797
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 2: the police thinking on William's disappearance, and it was the

798
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 2: idea was, here's the big scoop on what the police

799
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 2: have got that makes them think William's foster mother is responsible.

800
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 2: And one of the things was that the last known

801
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: photograph of William, so the last time we know for

802
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 2: a fact he was alive. He was barefoot in the photo.

803
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 2: Yet William's foster mother's evidence to police was that he

804
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 2: was wearing shoes at the time he went missing, and

805
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 2: that she'd said to him, put your shoes on. It

806
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 2: was Bindi season. So Bindi's those spiky little things you

807
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 2: see in the grass. But according to this article, it

808
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 2: wasn't Bindi season. Go her story is not true and

809
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 2: therefore she must be responsible. So when we went up

810
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: to where William went missing on the tenth anniversary, so

811
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,240
Speaker 2: this is ten years to the day since he went missing,

812
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 2: we stood outside the house that he disappeared from and

813
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 2: we tried to walk through what had happened to him

814
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 2: and what the police think happened. And my colleague Nina,

815
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 2: she looks down at the grass at the moment I'm

816
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 2: talking about this bindi and she says, oh, what's that,

817
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 2: And it's a Bindi on the grass. So this whole

818
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 2: I'm gonna like, yeah, it is. It's speculation, this whole

819
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 2: thing about shoes not shoes, Bindi's not bindy season. Well,

820
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 2: there was a Bindi on the grass ten years to

821
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,879
Speaker 2: the day since he went missing. And the other thing

822
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 2: is William knew how to put his own shoes on,

823
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,240
Speaker 2: so none of it seems to matter.

824
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 1: Then, just on the Bindi, it's called the Bindi situation.

825
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: I had a conversation, off the record, friendly conversation with

826
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: a journalist I respect, and this journalist said to me,

827
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: because I was arguing the toss on, yeah, why of

828
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 1: the police suspect the foster mother and that story was

829
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 1: relaid to me, but the Bindi the Bindi story, so

830
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: it was more than one journalist. Yeah, so this is

831
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: this is how it was told to me to convince

832
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: me that I've got it wrong. It's a foster mother

833
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: and this is not verbatim, but my recollection of the

834
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 1: conversation was, but Gary, guess what the foster mother said

835
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 1: that she told William to put his shoes on because

836
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: there's Bindi's And I'm going, yeah, it wasn't Bindy Susan

837
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:33,399
Speaker 1: and I've gone wow, like sarcastically wow. But there's more,

838
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, Okay, well, hopefully there's something, because that's nothing.

839
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: She also said put your shoes on because you might

840
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: tread in dog Purr and guess what, Gary, they didn't

841
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: have a dog. The dog had died six months ago.

842
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: Now this is the person I respect. But this is

843
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: irrational thinking. When this narrative comes in about about William

844
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 1: tyrol Ca.

845
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 2: It's irrational because you know what bannermuin Drive looks like,

846
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,280
Speaker 2: and I do. There's not much in the way offenses

847
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 2: between properties. There are dogs they could be.

848
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: But it's also irrational what you say to a three

849
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 1: year old child like I would tell, yeah, there's a thousand,

850
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 1: put your shoe on, they'll give you a lully like.

851
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:19,879
Speaker 2: It's I Look, honestly, I've thought about this. I can't

852
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: see how anything turns on the shoes.

853
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: Well that's not proof, I'm saying. Here, you put it

854
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: in effect sheet and see what.

855
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 2: But you know, what is significant from what you've said

856
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 2: isn't so much that the police might have said, you know,

857
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 2: to a court that that's their key bit of evidence.

858
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 2: But it's what they're telling journalists, or at least somebody's

859
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 2: telling journalists. There's the piece that I read in the paper,

860
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,320
Speaker 2: and you've got another journalist who's said this to you, Like,

861
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 2: who's telling the journalists what evidence the police have got

862
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 2: in a live homicide investigation. Well, because they shouldn't be

863
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 2: doing that. Well, I mean, as a journalist, I love

864
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 2: it when they do, but they shouldn't.

865
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: And I know, and I would say within the journalistic

866
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 1: circles that I mix in, I'm saying, why isn't there

867
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:12,399
Speaker 1: any inquiry about who released the information about the brief

868
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: of evidence coming to the DP.

869
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 2: Because everyone thinks you were releasing evidence?

870
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I I as I said, And the challenges

871
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,280
Speaker 1: here bring someone forward that has evidence that I released

872
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: any information When I was heading up investigations, I actually

873
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 1: had someone reported and for releasing information in one of

874
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: the very early homicide investigations I was on, and that

875
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: was going against a culture within the cops because I

876
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: put in a complaint against someone for releasing information.

877
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 2: Well, I guess anyone listening to this podcast who was

878
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 2: leaked to by yourself can put it in the comments

879
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 2: to this podcast.

880
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:52,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, put the calls out. Can I say sorry?

881
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 1: One other thing? And I apologize when I talk William

882
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 1: Troll because it does evoke emotions. But I want to

883
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: make this other comment. Take homicide had away media head way,

884
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 1: the foster mother, Yeah, is a let's say a person

885
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 1: of interest in a murder investigation. I've never in all

886
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 1: my time as a homicide detective, and I asked the

887
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 1: public to think this through. Had someone complain that the

888
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 1: investigation has made shut down the flower of the person responsible?

889
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 2: All right? See, that's interesting about the foster monk because

890
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 2: she has campaigned publicly and privately for more police attention

891
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 2: on this case. So probably anyone listening to this who

892
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 2: was in Australia at the time will remember the Where's

893
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 2: William campaign which was massive, like billboards on the side

894
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 2: of the road, like you drive from Sydney to Kendall

895
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 2: and you'd go past two or three of them. I

896
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 2: remember being in pubs up that way and you be

897
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 2: a matt would have William's face and a little thing

898
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 2: saying you know, if you know anything, contact crime stuff

899
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 2: is TV stuff, social media like a huge campaign which

900
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 2: you were involved in a bit is a cop at

901
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 2: the time, and the foster parents were heavily involved in

902
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 2: basically saying if you know anything, please come forward. And

903
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 2: we now know that she was also over the years

904
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 2: privately writing letters to the police commissioner and others saying

905
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 2: put more resources onto this, not just asking nicely. One

906
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 2: of those letters has been made public and she's basically

907
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 2: threatening him, you are not doing enough on this case.

908
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,439
Speaker 2: If you don't do more, we will get in touch

909
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: with the politicians. You know. The wording is much more

910
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 2: polite there, but you can read between the lines like

911
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 2: she's saying, if you don't do more, we will get

912
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:54,879
Speaker 2: on your case. If she actually is responsible, then she's

913
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 2: playing a very clever, dangerous game of double bluff, because

914
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 2: that's not what most guilty people would do in that case.

915
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: I've never seen someone And people might argue, we've all

916
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 1: seen the husband that has murdered the wife and gets

917
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 1: on the TV see that and implied for we need

918
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: to catch the killer. I've seen that in homicide. But

919
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 1: we're talking five years down the track, so the foster

920
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 1: mother could quite easily have just drifted off in the

921
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: background say it. Look, I appreciate the effort the police

922
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:31,799
Speaker 1: have done. Sadly we haven't got results, and no one

923
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 1: would think anything of it five years down the track.

924
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 1: Her concern was the investigation was going to be shut

925
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:44,280
Speaker 1: down under resource and all that. She wanted it investigated thoroughly.

926
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: She wanted answers. Okay, I'm doing what I've criticized other people.

927
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: I'm speculating, but these are the things that you've got

928
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: to take in take into account. I just find it

929
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,879
Speaker 1: extremely unusual, and it was someone that said it to

930
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 1: me when I was talking about just in a casual conversation.

931
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,439
Speaker 1: But why would she be asking for it to be

932
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 1: ramped up? And I'm thinking that's a good point, right.

933
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:13,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is a good point. And at this point,

934
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 2: only one of two things can be true, which is

935
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 2: either the police are right, in which case she has

936
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 2: misled the entire country for the best part of a

937
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 2: decade by calling for more attention on this case, or

938
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 2: the police have got it wrong, in which case they

939
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 2: have wrongly targeted her and her family. And only one

940
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,919
Speaker 2: of those two things can be true, and either one

941
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 2: of them is a pretty unsettling prospect. And this case,

942
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 2: the inquest is going to conclude this year, so November

943
00:56:57,120 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 2: December is the last two scheduled public cares, so everything's

944
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 2: got to come to a head. Like at the end

945
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 2: of that, you'd hope we know which of those versions

946
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 2: is true, because only one of them can be the

947
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 2: true story. And the podcast we're doing will run through

948
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 2: and we'll report on those in quest hearings as well.

949
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 2: So as part of this series, we are going back

950
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 2: to the beginning of the investigation, saying, here's what happened

951
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 2: and what was done right and what was done missed.

952
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 2: But we're going to be there for those inquest hearings

953
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 2: and we'll report on what comes out there. And I'm

954
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 2: expecting it to be shocking, actually, because there's so much

955
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 2: that's now weighing on this. And at the end of

956
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 2: the day, the thing that gets lost and this is

957
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 2: a couple of people have said this to me, and

958
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 2: I'm guilty of it, and maybe we're guilty of it

959
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 2: in this conversation because we're talking about, oh, what about

960
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 2: the police, and what about the media, and what about

961
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 2: the foster parents? And the thing that gets lost is

962
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 2: William himself. You know, there's a line in one of

963
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 2: the episodes in the podcast where someone says that it's

964
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 2: almost like William's become an absence in his own story.

965
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:19,959
Speaker 2: And probably the person we haven't actually really spoken about

966
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 2: enough in this conversation is William himself. And we are

967
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 2: going to get to the end of the year, and

968
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 2: one of these two accounts of what happened to him

969
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 2: will hopefully be the one we realize is the true one,

970
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 2: and then maybe at that point we can actually stop

971
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 2: and start thinking about the boy himself who went missing.

972
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, well said then, because I know what you're saying,

973
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 1: and I feel uncomfortable talking about that. It's always poked

974
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: the beer when they talk to me about William Tyrell.

975
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: But it's a three year old kid that sis and

976
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: the lives that's impacted on the lives of the Buron

977
00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 1: shaded these biological Foster family. Cute little kid, and I

978
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: think perhaps that's why it's in the psyche of the

979
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 1: whole country, and because you see those angelic fatos of

980
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 1: him running around plane and in the Spider Man suit,

981
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: we can all relate and his life is Yeah, we

982
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: don't know what's happened to him, so we need to

983
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: get answers. I'm hoping your podcast will assist and not

984
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: just encourage people to come forward with information, put the

985
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,920
Speaker 1: spotlight on the people that are involved in the investigation

986
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 1: where the cards lie. If I'm due for criticism, we

987
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 1: don't want the situation like this happening again. But we've

988
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 1: got to accept the responsibility that comes not just the police,

989
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 1: the coroner. Everyone that's involved in the media on a

990
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 1: situation like this, we need to bring an a game

991
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 1: to it, So hopefully your podcast delivers.

992
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 2: I hope.

993
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 1: So I've seen you looking tired on different times. I'm saying,

994
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 1: here is a friend Dan, I can see the pressure

995
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 1: on you working on this case. And a shout out

996
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 1: to her too, because she's good. There's been putting in

997
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 1: the big effort, but you need that type of effort

998
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of what this is all about.

999
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think I've actually worked this hard on

1000
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 2: anything before, and it does feel relentless and like it's

1001
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 2: definitely having an effect. And but you know this is

1002
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 2: true of everyone who's worked on it, isn't it. Like

1003
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 2: you take these cases on because they're important and they're

1004
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 2: worth doing, but they take something out of you in return.

1005
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 2: I've worked on each of the last three weekends. I've

1006
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 2: currently got four ulcers in my mouth because my body's

1007
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 2: trying to tell me that I'm a bit run down. Like,

1008
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 2: my wife's been great and the kids have been really supportive,

1009
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 2: but like we're on this until Christmas now, because that's

1010
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 2: how long the inquest is running for. And I'm already thinking, oh,

1011
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 2: that's going to be a long trip. But you do

1012
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 2: it because it's important, and you do it because you

1013
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 2: know there is a little three year old kid and

1014
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 2: something happened, and there are other people who got involved,

1015
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 2: not out of choice, but got involved in everything that followed,

1016
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 2: and they are important. So I really hope that we

1017
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 2: can get to the end of this year. And I

1018
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 2: say we, I mean collectively, like we the public, we

1019
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 2: the media, we the police, we the Inquest, and we

1020
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 2: can say we gave that our best shot.

1021
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 1: Well, I think the right person's doing it. The effort

1022
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 1: you're putting into it, that needs that effort. And I

1023
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: say this not naively, like if it comes back and

1024
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:45,520
Speaker 1: bites me, so be it. But we need answers and

1025
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 1: that hopefully this will help in some way, and we'll

1026
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 1: get answers for how can people listen to the podcast?

1027
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 2: You can listen to this podcast anywhere you get your podcasts.

1028
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 2: The podcast is out. We're releasing episodes weekly when the

1029
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 2: Inquest is on. We might end up doing more than

1030
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:07,160
Speaker 2: one a week just to report on what's happening. You

1031
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 2: can google it witness William Tyrrell and the reportings in

1032
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 2: news Dot com dot Au. So it's out there and

1033
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:17,080
Speaker 2: it's pretty easy to find.

1034
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I'm just going to say, as someone that

1035
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 1: was involved in the investigation, there's more to this investigation

1036
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:25,120
Speaker 1: that's been reported in the media.

1037
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 2: So yeah, if you're this than I ever.

1038
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 1: Thought so many later yeap, So good luck with it.

1039
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you for your time.

1040
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 1: I think we're still friends. I'll wait the rest of

1041
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: the need to wait until you've heard the episodes about you.

1042
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is actually the one I'm writing today.

1043
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:47,320
Speaker 1: All right, all right, great timing, all right, thanks then,

1044
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 1: thank you. I always find it difficult talking about the

1045
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 1: William tool case. Obviously I'm heavily invested in it. But

1046
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 1: I hope the podcast is Den Bock and Nina Young

1047
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: as working on, called Witness William Tyrell, will provide answers

1048
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 1: about all the issues that have gone on with this investigation,

1049
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 1: and also the main focus needs to be that we've

1050
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 1: got a three year old child that's disappeared and no

1051
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 1: one's been called into account.