Speaker 1: This nation. Leading bill and the treaty process as a whole,
Speaker 1: shows what we can achieve when we listen to first
Speaker 1: peoples and work together for better outcomes.
Speaker 2: When Victorian Premier Justin to Allen introduced Australia's first ever
Speaker 2: treaty to Parliament, she said it would pave the way
Speaker 2: for a formal apology, the introduction of Aboriginal truth telling
Speaker 2: into the school curriculum, and offer a better future for
Speaker 2: Indigenous Australians in the state.
Speaker 1: It honors and affirms a special connection the First Peoples
Speaker 1: have to country, this place now known as Victoria, which
Speaker 1: we all call home. It reckons with the wrongs of
Speaker 1: the past and sets a new course, guided by truth,
Speaker 1: to a better future.
Speaker 2: The treaty is the culmination of almost a decade of
Speaker 2: work establishing the First People's Assembly, who led the negotiations
Speaker 2: and delivers on voice, treaty and truth, the three pillars
Speaker 2: of the Ullerus Statement from the heart, making Victoria the
Speaker 2: first state in the country to achieve this. Now that
Speaker 2: treaty is in its next phase. This week we'll have
Speaker 2: the results of the election of who will sit in
Speaker 2: the First People's Assembly, and tomorrow the process of setting
Speaker 2: up the delegation that will actually decide what treaty looks
Speaker 2: like in the real world. Begins I'm Daniel James and
Speaker 2: you're listening to seven am Today. We're bringing you a
Speaker 2: two part episode from last year where Ruby Jones speaks
Speaker 2: with co chairs the First People's Assembly, Nagara Murray and
Speaker 2: ruben Burg on what they hope Victoria's treaty will deliver
Speaker 2: and how its success will be measured. It's Sunday, April
Speaker 2: twenty sixth. This episode first aired in September twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: Niagara, Ruben thank you so much for joining me to
Speaker 3: be Would you mind just introducing yourself?
Speaker 4: Yeah, hello, Nagara Murray, whereby one but you are you
Speaker 4: wander jar Jamarung and de Royal Woman and elect a
Speaker 4: co chair of the First People's Assembly.
Speaker 5: Rubenberg Proud benigs Maraman and also one of the co
Speaker 5: chairs of the First People to send me of Victoria.
Speaker 3: Well, welcome to ma'am. Thank you so much for coming
Speaker 3: on the show. The first Treaty with the first peoples
Speaker 3: of this country has just become a reality. It's been
Speaker 3: a long road to get here. So to begin to
Speaker 3: tell me how you're both feeling.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm feeling good. The historic day for all of
Speaker 4: us with the introduction of the statewide Treaty Bill in
Speaker 4: the Parliament. It was a day of emotions and pride
Speaker 4: and reflection.
Speaker 1: Treaty will be a source of pride for all Victorians,
Speaker 1: representative of a proudly diverse and multicultural state which values
Speaker 1: its history and all of its people, because this is
Speaker 1: not about taking anything away from anyone. It's about practical
Speaker 1: changes to do things better together. I am proud to
Speaker 1: support this next step in treaty. I am proud that
Speaker 1: together we are improving people's lives and giving everyone a
Speaker 1: better future. I commend the bill to the House.
Speaker 4: We're just really excited to be in this position in Victoria.
Speaker 4: And it's been a lot of hard work over the
Speaker 4: last six years in particular, but nearly a decade of
Speaker 4: preparatory work. And yeah, we're in a really strong position
Speaker 4: as we work towards the very first treaty of this country.
Speaker 5: Yes, as Nagara said, it's been a very long journey
Speaker 5: to get us here, across six years of traveling around
Speaker 5: the whole state, talking with all of our community in
Speaker 5: every corner of the state, and now to get to
Speaker 5: this point where it's about to become a reality to
Speaker 5: now then think forward to let's get the action done.
Speaker 5: Let's start getting things done rather than having to talk
Speaker 5: about treat now it can actually activate it.
Speaker 3: And obviously I want to talk more about what it
Speaker 3: all means, but you both mentioned it's been a long
Speaker 3: road to get here of the last decade, so can
Speaker 3: you just tell me about some of the kind of
Speaker 3: key points and then to goiations between the Assembly and
Speaker 3: the Victorian government.
Speaker 5: The first part of the negotiations when we started as
Speaker 5: an Assembly was really to work out what treaty would
Speaker 5: look like actually here in this state, because there's lots
Speaker 5: of different models you can go down for treaty making,
Speaker 5: and very early on we made I think a really
Speaker 5: important decision, an agreement with the state that we'd tackle
Speaker 5: this as a hybrid model. So we're looking at both
Speaker 5: statewide treaties, which is the first part of which has
Speaker 5: gone into the legislation as part of the bill, and
Speaker 5: then there's also traditional loan and treaties that are happening
Speaker 5: in parallel. And so that was I think a really
Speaker 5: key first part of this process to say we're going
Speaker 5: to have both and that drew from different models across
Speaker 5: the globe, and then as we started talking more about
Speaker 5: the first State White Treaty to say that what we
Speaker 5: wanted to do is set things up for success and
Speaker 5: for future conversations, that if we're going to have further
Speaker 5: negotiations and further conversations, we need to have a really
Speaker 5: strong democratic, weally elected, tradition loaner led body that can
Speaker 5: intersect with government really powerful ways so we can add
Speaker 5: for better outcomes and then also progress future treaty making.
Speaker 3: So tell me then, I guess about the practicalities of that.
Speaker 3: What is the purpose of the treaty, What does it
Speaker 3: look like for us?
Speaker 4: The treaty will really be about the relationships and the
Speaker 4: resetting of those relationships between first peoples and the state.
Speaker 4: As Ruben said, there'll be many treaties. We've got the
Speaker 4: hybrid approach of the statewide treaty covers all the state
Speaker 4: wide matters and addresses our affairs within health and housing, education,
Speaker 4: and justice, sports. There'll be a number of treaties in
Speaker 4: the next iteration of the statewide treaty, and then the
Speaker 4: trite owner treaties will relate to the business of those
Speaker 4: true owners on their country and their aspirations within their
Speaker 4: own context. But this is the first modern treaty in
Speaker 4: over twenty years, we've looked internationally to all the different
Speaker 4: examples of treaty making in other countries with indigenous peoples,
Speaker 4: and it is the first treaty. We can only do
Speaker 4: so much in this one and then we will pass
Speaker 4: the button to the next iteration of the Assembly. But
Speaker 4: it encapsulates all our aspirations, all our demands and asks
Speaker 4: that we've been fighting for for a long time and
Speaker 4: putting them into practice. And there's a lot of tangible
Speaker 4: outcomes that will happen through the first state wide treaty.
Speaker 4: But that structural reform is really what we're seeking around
Speaker 4: how we will govern into the future when it comes
Speaker 4: to aboriginal affairs.
Speaker 3: And just tell me a bit more about that structural reform,
Speaker 3: the new iteration of the First People's Assembly. What does
Speaker 3: it look like.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so this is the transformation of the Assembly as
Speaker 5: it is now into this future body, and it sits
Speaker 5: within this space referred to as galilis, and that's the
Speaker 5: kind of overarching landscape or tree making. So within Gallanglas
Speaker 5: will still be in the First People's Assembly of Victoria
Speaker 5: as the democratically elected body, and that's the body that
Speaker 5: we'll be able to talk directly to Parliament, to address
Speaker 5: Parliament once a year, to meet with Cabinet, to meet
Speaker 5: with ministers, to have relationships with departments about how when
Speaker 5: government's developing policies that might affect peoples, how they intersect
Speaker 5: and engage with the expertise of first peoples. Also within
Speaker 5: that space of Gallungwai will be the Nin mah Nanawara,
Speaker 5: which is their accountability mechanism, and this is something that's
Speaker 5: very clearly drawn from the work of the Productivity Commission.
Speaker 5: Last year.
Speaker 2: They did a big review.
Speaker 5: Onto closing the gap and what needed to be changed
Speaker 5: to actually see some closing of those gaps, and a
Speaker 5: key thing they identified was there's not a first people's
Speaker 5: led body that's actually monitoring the government to see how
Speaker 5: are they performing and giving them recommendations about what to improve,
Speaker 5: and so that's what we're creating through Nin mah Nianiawara.
Speaker 5: Another component of the Galluwai will be the ongoing truth
Speaker 5: coming through Tolkuna, and so that will ensure that the
Speaker 5: powerful work that happened through the truth calling process here
Speaker 5: in Victoria through yr Rook will be able to be continued.
Speaker 5: And there's an ongoing role for place based truth calling
Speaker 5: and to ensure that all Victorians can better understand the
Speaker 5: history of First Peoples from a first people's perspective.
Speaker 3: And so, as you mentioned, their didn't go in while
Speaker 3: is this access to government? So there's this power to
Speaker 3: make representations to cabinet, to ministers, to various departments, to
Speaker 3: both houses of Parliament. So tell me how you imagine
Speaker 3: that access being used. What's going to be advocated for?
Speaker 5: Yeah, So really at this stage it's about a process
Speaker 5: and the types of things we want to advocate for.
Speaker 5: Is that's the next conversation to talk with our community.
Speaker 5: It's not just going to be whoever the coaches are
Speaker 5: deciding that this is what they want to talk about.
Speaker 5: There are really strong processes in the legislation and in
Speaker 5: our own internal processes to make sure we're hearing directly
Speaker 5: from all parts of the state about what's important and
Speaker 5: feeding that in. And we do have the powerful work
Speaker 5: of your book of four years of our people coming
Speaker 5: in and giving evidence to show what also needs to change.
Speaker 5: So that'd be a really key roadmap of the type
Speaker 5: of things we're going to be advocating for and the
Speaker 5: future body can advocate for when we do have that
Speaker 5: greater access to government.
Speaker 3: And there is a proviso that nothing in the agreement
Speaker 3: limits the authority of the Parliament to make laws and
Speaker 3: conductor's business. So do you feel like there is enough
Speaker 3: of a guarantee there that the government of the day
Speaker 3: will listen.
Speaker 5: Look, I've heard far too much about the concept of
Speaker 5: parliamentary sovereignty in the last couple of years, and the
Speaker 5: ever really need to But we're very mindful that parliament
Speaker 5: has its role to do and that's rightfully so, given
Speaker 5: that they're chosen by all the people of the state.
Speaker 5: So we just want to make sure that when there
Speaker 5: is a role for government to have decisions that impact
Speaker 5: first peoples, that they're actually hearing from first peoples about that.
Speaker 5: We want to make sure we have really strong relationships.
Speaker 5: As Nagara said before, that's really key to these processes
Speaker 5: of being able to sit down and look in the
Speaker 5: eye of these politicians and say this is what our
Speaker 5: people need, and this is what our people are saying,
Speaker 5: and this is what our experts are saying, and hopefully
Speaker 5: that sees the change. But if not, we can keep
Speaker 5: coming back to the table and having those conversations and
Speaker 5: understand if that's not the approach they think will work,
Speaker 5: what will and how can we make that work even better?
Speaker 4: And we've had a really strong relationship with the state
Speaker 4: over six years now, you know, right across the political sphere,
Speaker 4: to ensure that we that support and really entrenched the
Speaker 4: work that we've done within this system to be able
Speaker 4: to have strong foundations for treaty and strong relationships as
Speaker 4: we head into the future.
Speaker 6: Coming up, how the success of this treaty will be
Speaker 6: measured over the coming years, So Reuben and Agara, as
Speaker 6: part of this treaty, primary and secondary school children will
Speaker 6: learn more about Victoria's First People's There's going to be
Speaker 6: a new curriculum developed choosing some of the findings of
Speaker 6: the commission. So tell me a bit about what might
Speaker 6: be taught and what you're hoping that that will achieve.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, the work of Europe has been absolutely profound
Speaker 4: and the fact that we've now completed the inquiry and
Speaker 4: we have those hundred recommendations and truth telling in education
Speaker 4: is really key to the future of this country and
Speaker 4: how we will coexist together all Victorians within the state
Speaker 4: understanding the real history, the true history.
Speaker 7: I have learned much that I did not know in
Speaker 7: terms of the true history of the dispossession, what the settlers,
Speaker 7: the colonizers did when they came to Victoria. I did
Speaker 7: not know of the massacres. I'm ashamed to say I
Speaker 7: did not. I have learned about the size and scale
Speaker 7: of the murders and the massacres through my preparation for
Speaker 7: my appearance today.
Speaker 4: And I think of my own child, a nine year
Speaker 4: old that's been on this treaty journey with us. She's
Speaker 4: a bit of a treaty kid. But how amazing would
Speaker 4: it be for the schools within Victoria to understand the
Speaker 4: history of this country and celebrate sixty thousand years of
Speaker 4: culture and what that means to us as the first
Speaker 4: peoples of this land, and for people to really understand
Speaker 4: the history of this country, because it is a shared
Speaker 4: history that we all have as Victorians.
Speaker 5: And I think on that as well. Sometimes there can
Speaker 5: be seen to be just to focus on the more
Speaker 5: traumatic sides about the history of first people's And obviously
Speaker 5: it is important that all Victorians can better understand the
Speaker 5: true impact of colonization, but it's also about celebrating black excellence. Still,
Speaker 5: it's about every school kid in Victoria should understand the
Speaker 5: significance of the aquaculture system down at Budja Bim, and
Speaker 5: they should understand the significance of people like Nagara's grandfather
Speaker 5: and great grandfather and all the work of first peoples
Speaker 5: in progressing that comes across the old State. We want
Speaker 5: to make sure we're celebrating average on history as well
Speaker 5: as part of that process.
Speaker 3: And the opposition, the Liberal that opposition in Victoria doesn't
Speaker 3: support the treaty.
Speaker 6: It's still a voice to parliament.
Speaker 1: The government are trying to put through a voice to
Speaker 1: Parliament without taking it to the Victorian community.
Speaker 3: Is that disappointing?
Speaker 4: It's disappointing. Like we've worked really hard to build relationships
Speaker 4: with the opposition this term and we've got open door policy,
Speaker 4: so we'll continue that dialogue of the opposition. But yeah,
Speaker 4: it's disappointing. We work hard on our relationships and I
Speaker 4: think we'll just continue to do that. But I think
Speaker 4: they've kind of showed some of their true colors within
Speaker 4: the parliament. But I think for us, we'll just continue
Speaker 4: the dialogue with the opposition.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and to me. There's two really key components. One
Speaker 5: is they've spoken about the importance of closing the gap,
Speaker 5: and we recognize the importance of that too, and that's
Speaker 5: why we've drawn so heavily from the work of the
Speaker 5: Productivity Commission. If I was going to say who knows
Speaker 5: best about what might need to change for closing the gap,
Speaker 5: it's first peoples and a Productivity Commission that has done
Speaker 5: an in depth review and to what needs to change,
Speaker 5: and so we're delivering on those things from the Closing
Speaker 5: the Gap Review. And also just to note that this
Speaker 5: has happened, there's going to be a tree error and
Speaker 5: we need to make sure we can use that to
Speaker 5: best benefit for all Victorians and to get better outcomes.
Speaker 5: But it's something that's going to be there and we're
Speaker 5: happy to work with all sides of government to make
Speaker 5: that work as effectively and efficiently as possible.
Speaker 3: And this is the first Australian treaty. You mentioned that
Speaker 3: international examples were looked at while this was being formulated.
Speaker 3: Can you tell me a bit more about that and
Speaker 3: the lessons that you've taken from elsewhere.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of learnings and lessons and we
Speaker 4: speak I'm really closely with our different indigenous brothers and
Speaker 4: sisters across the globe, and we've recently visited with the
Speaker 4: Maldi to have some strong relations there to learn from
Speaker 4: their treaties and the history of the Treaty of Waitangi.
Speaker 4: We talk with the Mob in the States, like with
Speaker 4: the Native American Mob and the British Columbian Mob Saami.
Speaker 4: We've looked at all the different examples and I think
Speaker 4: from Ruben's perspective, we've got a poss and skin cloak
Speaker 4: analogy where we've put together some of the best examples
Speaker 4: and learnings of successful treaties and we've adapted that and
Speaker 4: tailored that to our approach. And I think we're in
Speaker 4: a really strong position and we've got a lot of
Speaker 4: support right across the globe, and I know that a
Speaker 4: lot of Indigenous peoples and even our different countrymen and
Speaker 4: women across the different jurisdictions of Australia are watching and
Speaker 4: supporting us from afar. So it's pretty exciting to think
Speaker 4: that we will have a treaty in a modern context
Speaker 4: and the very first one of its clients in Australia.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and Leonnafin talk a lot about how Victoria is
Speaker 5: leading the way in a national perspective, but we're just
Speaker 5: catching up with the rest of the globe. Like coal
Speaker 5: Off countries have had these treaty processes in place for
Speaker 5: a long long time now, so it's really as important
Speaker 5: to see this from a global perspective.
Speaker 3: And so how will you measure the success of this
Speaker 3: treaty and say, five or ten years time, how big
Speaker 3: is the scale of the change that you hope that
Speaker 3: this will make.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that our community will be the measures
Speaker 5: of success, and hopefully we see our communities continue to
Speaker 5: thrive and see the ability to actually take control of
Speaker 5: our own lives and actually thrive in our own communities
Speaker 5: and have our culture be really strong. That's what we're
Speaker 5: looking for, and we want to make sure that we
Speaker 5: have all of our community participating and involved in these processes,
Speaker 5: and that'll be, from my perspective, the true measure of success.
Speaker 5: I think a key issue we've faced in a lot
Speaker 5: of these spaces is that so often what success looks
Speaker 5: like is dictated by external measures, where government are deciding
Speaker 5: that these are the measures of success. And now we're
Speaker 5: entering towards the process where we as first peoples will
Speaker 5: be able to determine what we think success looks like
Speaker 5: and measure that against our own ideas, which is really important.
Speaker 3: Well, Nagara Rubin, thank you so much to be your time.
Speaker 4: Thank you our pleasure.
Speaker 3: This is the first part of a two part episode.
Speaker 3: In the next episode, I speak to writer and my
Speaker 3: seven AM co host Daniel James about the politics of
Speaker 3: the treaty and why other states and territories have abandoned
Speaker 3: their own treaty processes.
Speaker 2: So the response from sections of the media was entirely predictable,
Speaker 2: trying to conflate it with things like the referendum, which
Speaker 2: is a completely different thing. This is it, this is
Speaker 2: what's happening, and if people want to conflate that with
Speaker 2: the referendum result for political purposes, then we'll wave to
Speaker 2: them as we go over the hill and down the road.
Speaker 3: It's called the politics and pushback, and it's in your
Speaker 3: feet now.