WEBVTT - How the internet is about to change for everyone 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:10.560 Hi, I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:14.360 Australia's plan to ban teenagers from social media has been 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:15.800 called world leading. 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:20.480 Well well first in Australia, where Parliament there has given 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.720 a green light to a bill banning social media for 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.200 users under the age of sixteen. 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:26.880 And we introduced. 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:30.600 The new legislation could see tech companies like TikTok, Facebook 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:34.680 and Instagram find up to fifty million Australian dollars that's 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.800 almost thirty one million euros if they fail to comply. 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:40.800 But as we get closer to its introduction, questions are 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:44.040 being raised about what it actually means to verify age 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:47.839 on social media and the implications for online privacy for 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:49.320 all Internet users. 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:50.200 Today. 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:53.920 Digital rights Advocatesmanta Floriani on the risks of the ban 0:00:54.120 --> 0:01:08.240 amid a global regulatory arms race. It's Thursday, July thirty one, 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:12.119 So Samantha will get into the details of the social 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:15.679 media ban in a moment. But first it seems like 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:19.440 YouTube will now be included in this ban. Originally it 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:20.640 was not going to be. 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:26.280 So what's changed. Yeah, So, initially YouTube was excluded from 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:29.160 the teen social media ban, which made a lot of 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:32.800 the other social media giants really upset. They were really 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:36.440 angry about this. But in June, the e Safety Commissioner 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.120 made a speech to the National Press Club where she 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:43.160 revealed that she had advised the Minister for Communications, Annika Wells, 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.640 that the government should not exempt YouTube from the ban. 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.560 YouTube was the only one exempted. Our recommendation was that 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:57.160 no specific platform be exempted because, as I said, their 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.600 relative risks and homes can change at any moment. 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:02.840 And this was off the back of research that her 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.600 office had conducted which revealed that YouTube was one of 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:10.600 the most used platforms by children under sixteen years of age. 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:14.160 YouTube was the most frequently cited platform in our research, 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:19.480 with almost four and ten children reporting exposure retiremful content. 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:23.080 There, and the research also included some findings about a 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:27.480 younger cohort of users so ages ten to twelve, who 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:31.279 were more likely to be exposed to harmful content on YouTube. 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.320 This also comes as The New York Times reported earlier 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:39.120 this month that YouTube surreptitiously ruled back its content moderation 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:43.080 processes to keep more harmful content on its platform. 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:47.280 So it seems that essentially the backflip has come off. 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:50.800 The back of advice from the E Safety Commissioner based 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:53.600 on this research. Okay, and so what. 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:57.200 Do we know that's meant about how YouTube and zona Google, 0:02:57.320 --> 0:02:58.640 how they're likely to respond. 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:02.280 Well, we could already see that have been quite aggressive 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:06.040 in their response to the potential to be included. 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:10.519 YouTube is galvanizing Aussie creators. Though, to respond, you're worried 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:11.400 about them? 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:15.360 YouTube did send the Wiggles to try and persuade me 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:16.840 to their positions, did they? 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:17.720 They did? 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:22.639 They sent Big Wiggle, and Google, which owns YouTube, threatened 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:25.920 legal action in a letter to the Communications Minister if 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:28.839 it was to be included. Look you worried about legal action? 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:36.760 I mean, we have had threats come in, but look, 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:39.480 you know I've got sharp elbows. This is too important 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:40.600 for us not to have a crack. 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:43.920 So it'll be interesting to see if they make good 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:48.320 on that threat. They've been arguing pretty strongly that YouTube 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:52.000 is not a social media platform. Basically, what they're saying 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.760 is that it lacks some of the features designed to 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.920 facilitate social connections in the same way that many other 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.760 social media platforms. Do you know whether or not you 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.200 agree with that, that's sort of the stants that they've 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:06.440 been really trying to push. They've also been pushing this 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:09.119 idea that you know, YouTube is home to a lot 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:12.960 of educational content. You know, it's regularly used in Australian 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:16.320 classrooms and so on. I imagine that they will be 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:21.840 very frustrated with the news from Wednesday, So it will 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:24.200 be interesting to see whether there's fall out off the 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:24.880 back of this. 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:29.800 And so the Australian government, they're really relying on this 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:33.600 argument that YouTube contains all of the same harms to 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:38.359 young people, like algorithms, AutoPlay, both sorts of things, and 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.520 that's why it should be included. What does the evidence 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:45.039 say about the harm or otherwise of YouTube on young people? 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.800 You know, in general, there is a lot of conflicting 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:54.719 research and evidence on all social media fronts. You can 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:59.560 find research that suggests that social media is overwhelmingly beneficial. 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:03.160 You can find research that suggests it's you know, absolutely terrible. 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:05.720 I think in reality it's always going to be more 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.040 complicated than that. There are plenty of positives that come 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:11.840 with something like YouTube. You know, plenty of teachers use 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:15.640 it in classrooms, plenty of parents use it with their children. 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.320 So I think where we get into trouble as if 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:21.760 we start to try to categorize these things as all 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:25.719 good or all bad. But you know, as the research 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.480 shows from the e Safety Commissioner, there there are harms 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:30.640 that are occurring on YouTube, and you know, I think 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:35.040 it is reasonable to demand social media giants to be 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:39.880 taking more proactive steps to ensure that their products are 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:43.680 you know, safer experiences for children and young people, but 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:46.240 people of all ages as well. To be honest, there 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:50.040 is I guess an outstanding question as to whether age 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:54.800 verification is the best option for that, but this is 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:58.920 the one that we're currently entertaining. Okay, well, let's talk. 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:02.719 About the nuts and of the social media then how 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.960 would it or does it actually work in practice? 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.560 Yeah, So from December, the social media platforms that are 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.600 captured by Part four A of the Online Safety Act 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:17.320 will have to take reasonable steps to prevent people under 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:20.760 the age of sixteen from having accounts on their platforms. 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:24.640 So most social media platforms already have a minimum age 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:27.479 requirement of thirteen, but the way that they enforce this 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:31.120 is really sort of lackluster and quite ineffective. You know, 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:34.080 it's usually just asking people to put in their date 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:37.960 of birth, Obviously this is not working, so from December 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.719 they'll be expected to do much more to verify that 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.320 their users are actually over the age of sixteen. 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:46.320 Come ten December, it means that if your kid has 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:49.240 a YouTube log in or another social media platform log in, 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.360 the platform needs to deactivate it, and the platform needs 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.440 to take reasonable steps to make sure that kids don't 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.640 activate new logins and where they find their way around this. 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.520 Because we know that kids will, God bless them, the 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:04.159 platforms take reasonable steps to mitigate that from happening in. 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.760 The Unfortunately, we still don't know exactly what this will 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:12.440 look like in practice for everyday users of social media, 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.080 and that's because there are a range of options that 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:20.920 platforms could take to do this. On Wednesday, Communications Minister 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.960 Anaka Wells did make assurances that platforms will not be 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:29.520 required to collect identity documents like a passport or a 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:30.760 driver's license. 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.400 In order to do this, platforms have to provide an 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:38.200 alternative to providing your own personal identification documents to satisfy 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:39.240 themselves of aid. 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.160 For instance, they might get people to put in their 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:47.040 credit card details, or they might use biometric face scanning 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:50.160 to guess the age of the person. Based on their face, 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:53.720 and she suggested that some platforms you might be able 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:56.760 to infer people's age based on the data that they 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:58.760 already have about them. 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:02.200 These platforms with deadly accuracy who we are, what we do, 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.440 and when we do it. And they know that you've 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:07.960 had a Facebook account since two thousand and nine, so 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:11.000 they know that you're over sixteen. There's lots of ways 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:11.920 that this can be done. 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:14.360 But something that's important to understand I think about this 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:18.119 is that this will change the way that everyone uses 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:21.000 social media, you know, not just people under the age 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:25.360 of sixteen. Everyone including adults, will need to verify their 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.720 age in whatever way they end up doing this, not 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:29.480 just children. 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.680 After the break how the Internet is changing for everyone? 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.640 This maad that if everyone who uses the Internet is 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.880 going to end up having to provide some sort of identification, 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:51.760 even if we don't know exactly what that is yet, 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:54.880 how will that change the way that we all use 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:55.480 the Internet? 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:58.480 Yeah, so, again, it will depend on how it's implemented, 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.480 But there are some immediate concerns that come to mind, 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:05.800 one of which is privacy and data protection or digital security. 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.720 So if we are required to provide additional data to 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:14.520 these tech giants or to third party age assurance platforms. 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.439 That does mean handing over you know, more information to 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:21.520 companies that already have a huge amount of information about us. 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.480 I think people are more aware than ever of the 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:28.560 risks that come with providing things like identity documents or 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:33.240 other sensitive and personal information off the back of you know, 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:37.440 all of these large scale data breaches. I think people 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:41.480 are rightfully so quite scared about what that means. There 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:44.440 are also concerns about the potential to be able to 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:50.719 essentially link your behavior on social media or other you know, 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:56.600 online services and websites to your identity. Again, we don't know, 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:58.520 because we don't know the specifics of how it will 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.800 be implemented, whether this is likely to happen or not, 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:07.280 but there are I think genuine fears and reasonable fears 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:12.480 about the potential for this to essentially contribute to a 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:17.360 global trend towards policing online content and being able to 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:22.480 monitor the way that people are accessing various forms of 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.440 information online. And something else that I think is important 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:27.000 to note is that it's not just going to be 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:30.720 happening on social media. Search engines in December will also 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:33.440 be expected to verify the age of their logged in 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:35.120 users and what is the. 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:35.959 Rationale for that. 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:40.240 This is kind of happening in tandem to the teen 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:45.080 social media there. Basically there's a set of new industry 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:47.960 codes that are also coming into effect in December that 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:51.000 would mean that search engines will also have to verify 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:55.800 users age Their E Safety Commissioner has basically said that 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:58.280 there needs to be a layered approach and that they 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.080 need want to come at it from all different directions, 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.160 and that the idea being that search engines are sort 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.800 of one entry point into potentially harmful material. 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:13.440 And the UK has just started age verification for pornography 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.160 I believe what can we learn from how that's going. 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:20.120 Yeah, so the UK within the last week has brought 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:24.720 in new stringent regulations that mean that any website offering 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:28.760 adult content to UK users needs to take reasonable steps 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:32.400 to verify the age of anyone visiting that website from 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.160 the UK. So a very similar kind of approach to 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.240 what we're doing here in Australia. So off the back 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:43.240 of this, there's been more than four hundred thousand UK 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:47.320 citizens have signed a parliamentary petition demanding that the Act 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.400 be repealed, which I think suggests that quite a few 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:54.440 people were perhaps taken by surprise about what it meant 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:58.559 in reality and a really upset about it. In addition 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:01.920 to that, a popular vs VPN product, so a VPN 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:06.360 basically enables people to bypass this he verification process by 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:10.000 masking their location, so they can essentially pretend to be 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:13.080 logging in from somewhere that isn't the UK. So a 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:16.320 popular VPN product said that they've seen more than an 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:20.680 eighteen thousand percent increase in daily signups from UK based 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.960 users since Friday. So that's a massive uptick in people 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.600 using VPNs to get around these restrictions. So again, that 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:29.880 suggests that a lot of people are actively trying to 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.440 get around it, and that it's quite easy to get 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.480 around using a VPN, which raises questions about the sort 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:38.480 of efficacy of the whole thing as well. 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.080 Yeah, I mean that's something that comes up a lot, right, 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.880 whether or not you can actually then deenages from using 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:46.800 these platforms exactly. 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:49.199 The other thing that has been interesting to note off 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:52.120 the back of the UK ban is that there's been 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.320 lots of reporting about how there have been websites and 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:59.920 smaller online forums, many of which are completely innocuous, you know, 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:03.400 not harfled of children, and they've opted to just geo 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:07.160 block their services to the UK entirely simply because they 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.920 don't have the resources to support third party age for 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:14.920 reification and they can't risk the potential finds. So you know, 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:18.160 we might see a similar thing here where rather than 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.160 having to deal with age for eification or risk finds 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.280 that we might see you know, websites and forums just 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:25.720 completely pull out of Australia. 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:28.439 And it's fair to say the rest of the world 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:29.880 is watching this pretty closely. 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.120 Yeah, well, I think this is part of a global 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:35.080 push to age gate more and more of the Internet. 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.960 There's been a lot of emphasis on online safety of late. 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:42.240 I think it's fair to say that there's kind of 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:46.840 a bit of a regulatory arms race happening between you 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:52.240 know here and the UK in particular. I think it's 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:58.440 entirely reasonable to demand digital platforms, social media platforms, all 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.720 of these tech giants to be doing much more when 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:06.480 it comes to, you know, ensuring the safety of their users. 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:09.200 So what's striking to me here is that there are 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:11.480 you know, these are really big decisions that do change 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.040 the way that everyone will use the Internet, not just 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:18.760 on social media, and you know to me this warrants 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:22.960 much more robust public conversation and parliamentary debate. 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.320 Well Smantha, thank you so much for your type, no worries. 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:29.480 Thank you so much for having me. 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:43.200 Also in the news today, there have been tsunamis in Russia, Japan, 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.760 and the United States following a powerful earthquake off Russia's 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:50.480 east coast. The magnitude eight point eight earthquakes struck near 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:54.360 the far eastern Kumchuck Copeninsula yesterday at a shallow depth 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:59.160 of under twenty kilometers, and Prime Minister Anthony Abnezi is 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:02.800 facing growing pressure from his backbench to recognize a Palestinian 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:06.120 state after the United Kingdom joined France and more than 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:10.480 one hundred and forty nations in signaling support. Former Cabinet 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:14.520 Minister at Husick says Australia's cautious stance is untenable while 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.880 children in Gaza face starvation, and is urging the PM 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.640 to reconsider before the UN meets in September. Prime Minister 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:26.520 Albanesi maintains any recognition must advance peace, insisting the timing 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:31.160 must help not hinder a two state solution. I'm Ruby Jones. 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:32.040 Thanks for listening.