WEBVTT - The secret nuclear waste files the government is fighting to keep hidden 0:00:01.240 --> 0:00:10.200 I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven am. What 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:14.400 did Jackie Lamby, Pauline Hansen, Lydia Thorpe and David Pocock 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:18.000 all have in common? Usually nothing, but they're part of 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.680 an unlikely group of politicians backing former Senator Rex Patrick 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:24.919 in a legal fight with the Albanesi government over information 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:28.280 the government doesn't want released. At the center of that 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:31.680 fighter documents about potential sites for nuclear waste storage from 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:35.240 August Submarines. A builder could see Patrick force to pay 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:38.160 one hundred and fifty thousand dollars and a warning about 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:42.000 what happens when ordinary Australians push too hard for answers. 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:47.120 Today Transparency campaign Rex Patrick on the case that is 0:00:47.240 --> 0:01:03.000 united some of Parliament's most unlikely allies. It's Tuesday, August four, Rex. 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:05.959 In May, you won a freedom of information case which 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:08.600 ordered the government to release information on where it will 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:12.840 stare nuclear waste for Australia's future orchast submarines. Now the 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:16.679 government is appealing to stop those documents being released. What 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.200 do you understand is in those documents or what they 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:19.800 could reveal. 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:24.640 Well, we know that Back in February of twenty twenty three, 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:28.240 the Minister announced that the government was going to do 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:32.720 a review into how to select a location for orcust 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:33.800 nuclear waste. 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:39.000 As part of being a responsible nuclear steward, Australia will 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:44.479 take responsibility for the disposal of the nuclear waste which 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:48.400 comes from member operating nuclear power submarines, which is both. 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:54.400 That report was completed in November of twenty twenty three, 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:58.200 so in December, a month later, I sought access to 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:02.840 both the report, but knowing the government might claim that 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.560 to be cabinet, I then also asked for the documents 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:10.480 that fed into that report, so the policy documents that 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:13.520 were being sort of built up in background. 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.720 The process by which we will determine how that all 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:20.680 occurs is a process that we're underway right now and 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.680 we will complete within twelve months. To be clear on that, 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:25.360 that is not to say in twelve months time there 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:27.560 will be a place, but it is to say within 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.239 twelve months time we will identify what the road will 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:32.040 be to determining where. 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:37.919 So the report and the documents themselves don't actually mention 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:43.480 that location. No location has been selected, but all of 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:49.080 the criteria what the geological site must be, issues such 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:55.640 as transportation, security, making sure that the facility is not 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:59.520 located on an earthquake zone those sorts of things. But 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.480 I know from the hearing that took place and the 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.200 decision that was made by the Administra of Review Tribunal 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:12.120 that it does include at least one location. The tribunal 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:15.639 made the point that naming one location doesn't tell you 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:21.320 that that's the location the government has chosen. But I 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:24.200 think the government's worried that if you name any location, 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:29.080 people are going to get upset. Look, that information that 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:35.120 I'm seeking has been described by the Administra Review Tribunal 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:40.960 as information that is of significant public interest. I've also 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:45.440 just been in the last couple of weeks had a judge, 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:51.520 Justice O'Sullivan make the same declaration in relation to similar documents. 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.760 So a huge public interest in the disclosure of these 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:59.200 sorts of documents so that the public can discuss and 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:03.760 scrutiniz the government as they work towards finding a place 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:05.760 to put Baucus nuclear waste. 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:08.840 So it's a hot political issue, as anything to do 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.600 with nuclear waste usually is Why did the government, beyond 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:16.599 that argue this information should remain secret. What harm did 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:18.280 it say would come from releasing it? 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:22.400 Well, I might summarize it as saying that the government 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:26.560 wants to control the narrative. Those words were talked about 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:30.440 in the hearing. They say that if you just release 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:32.640 a little bit of it, then people are going to 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.240 get the wrong impression. If you don't do it in 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:39.440 a controlled manner, it's going to create difficulty for the government. 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:43.599 But of course all of those arguments don't stand. So, 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:47.080 for example, if you're worried about small amounts of information 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:52.000 being misleading, release more, tell people more. And indeed the 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:54.719 FI is there to allow you to appear in behind 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:58.640 the sort of thick curtains of government officers and just 0:04:58.680 --> 0:04:59.520 see what's going on. 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.240 What do you think the government's been so secretive about 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:02.760 this work? 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.720 Well, I think you mentioned that the issue. You said 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.080 it was a hot political issue. I think it's a hot, 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:13.560 radioactive political issue. Part of me feels as though if 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.360 it were not documents or added to that topic, maybe 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.840 the appeal wouldn't be taking place. But the government has 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.719 appealed on questions of law that they've asked the court 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:26.320 to determine, and then the matter will get remitted back 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.960 to the Administra of Review Tribunal to be dealt with 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.400 in accordance with law. So it's all very technical stuff, 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:37.760 but what it does is put a really big bar 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:42.640 in the way of someone like me trying to pursue 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:45.800 these sorts of documents. And indeed, if you think about it, 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:50.840 I mean they've taken me to court. They know that 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:55.039 I'm not a lawyer. Just imagine someone wins an FOI 0:05:55.760 --> 0:06:00.240 and the government sends them a nose of appeal, no 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:03.520 idea what to do, and when they read the appeal, 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:07.559 it says the government is seeking costs against you if 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:11.320 they are successful. Right now, those jos you get to 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:13.840 about one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. That's not an 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:15.040 unreasonable estimate. 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:19.039 Yeah, let's talk about that, Rex. Because the government isn't 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.280 just appealing this decision. It's raised the states. It's insisting 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:24.920 that you pay up to one hundred and fifty thousand 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:28.160 dollars to cover its legals costs if you lose the 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.720 legal fight. What do you make of that decision? How 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:33.320 do you reflect on that? Do you take that as 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:33.960 a threat? 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:36.640 But it's more than a threat because they've actually done 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:41.680 the appeal. What is offensive about it is that the 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.440 information I'm seeking, there's no information that I'm going to 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:49.520 use to make money or have some personal benefit in 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:54.360 relation to It's information where I get to look at 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:59.400 perhaps fifteen emails, and those emails may or may not 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:02.560 have something interesting in them, and the price tag they 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:04.640 want to put on that is one hundred and fifty 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:09.560 thousand dollars. This is a deep pocketed government bringing a 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:14.520 citizen to the federal court, testing and asking the court 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.920 what the law is, knowing full well that I don't 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.160 have the capacity to go from fund lawyers, and I 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:26.200 certainly can't risk fifty thousand dollars in adverse legal costs. 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:31.240 This is a huge chilling effect. The message here is 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:37.040 stop at an FOI loss. If you pursue win, we 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:39.920 may take you to court and you may lose your house. 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.080 Still to come why this is one hundred and fifty 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:59.160 thousand dollars fight. They've seen political enemies band together, rex 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:02.080 politicians who are really on the same side about anything 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:05.320 abandon together to back you on this. From paul Ing 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:08.360 Hanson to Jackie Lamby, to Lydia Thorpe and David Pocock, 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:11.560 they say the decision to pursue legal costs is a 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:14.280 breach of the rules which require the government to act 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:17.600 as a model litigant. Can you explain those rules for us? 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:21.360 Well, the model of rules basically say that the government 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:27.000 shouldn't take advantage of a citizen who simply cannot resource 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:29.920 a legal team. So if I were a corporation and 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:34.120 I was after documents related to the business that I 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.480 was engaged in, one might say, well, it's reasonable that 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:42.319 the corporation pays legal fees if they're unsuccessful in their 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:45.960 endeavor to get a document. We might even suggest that's 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:50.440 the case if I was seeking documents to help me 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:54.120 win a compensation case something like that. But in a 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:58.960 pure case that involves no pecuniary interest, no financial interest 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:05.240 in a matter of significant public interest and questions to 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:09.320 the court about how the public law works, that is 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:14.240 not a case where the government should seek to impose costs. 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:17.800 And what's the government's response to claims of a breach. 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:20.360 Well, they say that it's not a breach. They have said, well, 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:22.920 we're not. We consider it to be a test case. 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.000 Now that might be something that gets argued out in 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.199 the court because the court just as that as the 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:32.720 government has a responsibility to be fair to citizens. The 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:37.239 courts take seriously, their role to be fair to citizens 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:43.240 under their constitutional role. So the deal here is that 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:46.520 I can't afford the one hundred and fifty thousand dollars I 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:50.719 might need to have a lawyer instructing a barrister who 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:53.240 might be led by a senior council, because that's what 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.280 the other side may have, which means I'm on my own. 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.520 And what happens is when I go to court, if 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.160 I lose, use that's when I'll have to pay the 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:06.000 commerce legal costs. And we all know that if you're 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:09.599 self represented, there's a much greater chance of losing. So 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:13.120 it's almost like this double whammy that they know I 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:16.800 can't get a lawyer and the chances of winning against 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:21.800 the silks or kick cases and senior counsels which they 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:26.679 may well engage at taxpayers expense, it will make it 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:30.520 extremely difficult for me. And maybe the point here is 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.920 just to make sure that the documents never get released 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:39.080 and the narrative control is maintained. Okay, I'm sorry, why 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:41.040 can't that report be released again? 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:45.760 The report is a classified report, Senator. 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:49.680 Oh, it's a classified report, but I mean there's no 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:53.240 detail really, So what's so classified with it. 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:55.960 I mean, you haven't gone anywhere, really is it? 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.400 And the minister setup would be released as a part 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:00.640 of a social license. 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.600 So when is the Minister of Defense going to release it? 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:06.880 Jackie Lamby says, this is the government trying to send 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.640 a message. What is that message? Rex? And are you 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:14.240 worried that this could stop others in the future from 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:18.160 pursuing information the government simply doesn't want exposed. 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:20.600 Yeah, it just means that the ready sensitive stuff, the 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.720 government has a means to be able to say you 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:25.960 ain't going to get it even if the law says 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:28.240 that you can, because you never get to test the 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:33.679 law properly. And so Senator Lambe has weighed and she's concerned, 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:37.240 and I've spoken to her. This issue is not about 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:41.319 Rex Patrick. Okay, I'm old enough and ugly enough to 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:45.559 look after myself. The big worry here is the FOI 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.360 Act is a layman's tool. 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:48.920 You know. 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:53.680 A senator can ask questions on notice, an order to general, 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:57.480 can demand papers when they're oversighting government. The media can 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:01.320 ask questions and use its its powers in terms of 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.800 its ability to influence the public to potentially get answers 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:10.600 to information. All the citizen has is FOI. It's a 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:13.360 given to them by the Parliament to be able to 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.960 participate in democracy and to be able to scrutinize their government. 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:21.360 And the government is just putting a huge price tag 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:25.800 on that activity, even though the Act says that access 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:30.720 to documents should be granted two people in the least 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:34.800 costly way, so that the Act actually says that, Yet 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:38.400 they're basically saying, well, we're just going to outmuscle you, 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:43.040 mister Patrick and anyone else who's watching pay attention. 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.959 And finally, Rex, I mean, how important are freedom of 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:50.400 information requests to a robust democracy? I mean how important 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.920 have they become? Because government over the decade seems to 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:58.200 me as Orbersuasians have become more and more secretive. What 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.880 kind of things wouldn't we know without FOIS? 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:04.200 I look, there's all sorts of stuff. I was the 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:08.080 person that took Scott Morrison to court over a national 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:12.360 cabinet being declared during COVID and basically then saying well 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:16.640 we can't see the information and the basis upon which 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.920 really big decisions like you can't leave your house, you 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.920 can't cross a border, you can't send your kids to school. 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:28.079 How those decisions were being made, so FOI properly pursued 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:33.840 as opened up national cabinet. FOI has enabled us to 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:39.640 see all sorts of misconduct by officials, or unfair play 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:45.080 by governments or poorly thought through ideas. Fois are a 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:49.559 critical tool for journalists who want to see what's happening 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.760 behind the closed doors of government to be able to 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:56.040 report and inform the public. They will be looking at this, 0:13:56.120 --> 0:14:00.079 and in fact it wasn't just the politicians that have 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.800 weighed in and written to the Attorney General, so to 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:07.079 have some civil society groups, including people like the Human 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:12.400 Rights Law Center, but also some of the journalists organizations 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:15.040 because they understand the implication of this. 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:20.000 X Patrick, thank you so much for your time. 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:20.720 Thank you. 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.160 Also in the news day one of radio shock jock 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.520 Allan Jones's long awaited trial has kicked off in Sydney, 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.760 with the court hearing Jones allegedly kissed and touched a 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:45.920 year twelve student who had invited to his home in 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:49.600 the Southern Highlands. The prosecution says Jones met the teenager 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:53.160 during a radio interview about the promising young athletes achievements, 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:55.960 later paying for his phone and a six hundred dollars 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:59.960 a week allowance to help with his training. Jones faces 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.480 twenty two charges related to six male complainants. He denies 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:07.760 any wrongdoing. And One Nation has finally announced its Victorian 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.840 leader ahead of the upcoming state election. The party's state 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.360 president or In Pickering, but One Nation's policies and full 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.320 list of candidates won't be released for another month, just 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.520 three months out from the vote. The announcement was made 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:23.200 yesterday in Melbourne, with the ABC, the Age and The 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:26.920 Guardian all refused entry. Hansen says she's quote not putting 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.800 up with the spin gotcha moments, so they're banned. 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:31.240 I'm Ruby Jones. 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:33.080 This is a an am thanks for listening.