WEBVTT - Read This: All Bruce Pascoe Needs Is a Biro 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.640 Hey there, it's Ruby Jones. Each Sunday, we're sharing one 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:06.640 of our favorite episodes from our sister podcast, Read This. 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:10.440 The show features interviews with some of Australia's best and 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:14.720 most beloved writers. Today, we're going to hear from Bruce Pasco. 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:18.360 Bruce is a novelist and historian who's twenty fourteen book 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:22.480 At Dark Emu became a national bestseller. Michael Williams is 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:27.400 the host of Read This, and he's with me now. 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:27.880 Ruby Jones. 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:29.600 Halle Michael, how are you. 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:32.120 I am great lovely to be back with you again 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:35.520 for another episode of Read This. So on this episode, 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:38.519 listeners are going to hear your conversation with Bruce Pasco. 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:41.440 Tell me a bit about how you first came to 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:42.240 read his work. 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:44.120 Listeners are going to have to put up with me 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:47.200 waxing a little nostalgic in this episode because I first 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:51.680 met Bruce on a family camming holiday in Malacuta, where 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.160 he was selling copies of his book at the farmer's 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:56.880 market on a Sunday and I went and bought one 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:58.440 because I'd run out of things to read on the 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:00.680 summer holidays, and that was the first time I read 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:03.480 Bruce's book or Met Bruce the human Being, So we 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:07.039 do have a little nostalgic reverie about Malokuda. But my 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:09.800 favorite thing about this episode is that Bruce Pascoe was 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:12.440 well and truly dragooned into the culture wars when Dark 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:16.039 Emu came out, News Limited in particular decided that he 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:18.720 was public enemy number one for the ways in which 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:21.520 he wanted to rethink First Nations history in this country. 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:23.360 And so I meant that a lot was written, a 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.200 lot was said about Bruce that didn't represent who he is, 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:28.919 the kind of scholar he is, the kind of thinking 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:32.960 he does, and the deep integrity and generosity of his storytelling. 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:34.840 And so for me, it was very exciting to have 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.640 an opportunity to talk to the actual author about what 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.960 motivated him, rather than rely on secondhand nonsense. 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.040 It's true, so much of the narrative around Bruce is 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:47.880 around the controversy that has been stood up by what 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.400 he's written, and less on the craft of his writing. 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:53.760 Absolutely, and I think listeners will be very surprised to 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:57.040 hear what the new novels about and hear Bruce talk about. 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.600 And it couldn't be more diametrically opposed to the kind 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.480 of preconceptions that I think people bring to the table 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:05.240 when it comes to this fabulous writer. 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.239 Coming up in just a moment. All Bruce Pasco needs 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:13.960 is a burrow. 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:24.760 When I was a kid, my mother would take my 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:27.760 sisters and I for camping holidays in the height of summer. 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:32.760 Of the recurring destinations, Malakuda was a particular favorite, on 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:35.480 the edge of crowajing Along National Park, at the mouth 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.079 of this series of beautiful inlets. So I'm the far 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.000 north coast of Victoria and it's one of those places 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:44.239 where while the year round population is only about a thousand, 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.720 in summer, when the camping run is full, that number 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:52.120 is more like eight thousand. I remember those long, glorious 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.240 days splashing around on Becka Beach, or sitting in the 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:59.480 basketball hall watching the makeshift cinema. But of those entertainments, 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:02.720 the app sa lude pinnacle was the farmer's market each weekend, 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:07.120 not least because it was a reliable source of secondhand books. 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.400 It was there one summer, having exhausted the reading I 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.320 packed for the holiday, that I picked up my first 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:20.280 Bruce Pascoe novel. In hindsight, it's clear to me that 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:22.520 the quiet bloke with the big beard who sold it 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.960 to me was the author himself. This wasn't a second 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.360 hand stall. This was someone who loved to write, making 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:33.280 a connection with potential readers in between the DreamCatcher stall 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.560 and the homemade chutneys. That more than two decades later 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:41.280 Bruce Pascoe would be a household name was unthinkable at 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.960 the time that he would still be writing, still honoring 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:49.760 his commitment to telling a great story. That is utterly unsurprising. 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:56.400 I'm Michael Williams, and this is Read. This the show 0:03:56.400 --> 0:04:05.560 about the books we love and the stories behind them. 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.360 It was twenty fourteen when Bruce Pascoe went from being 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:14.840 a prolific yet relatively unknown writer to public enemy number 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:18.359 one in Australia's culture wars. That was the year he 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:21.680 published his now infamous book Dark Emu and its re 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:26.840 examination of accepted historical accounts of pre invasion Australia. It's 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.680 a book that struck a chord. More than three hundred 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.880 and sixty thousand copies have been sold so far, and 0:04:32.920 --> 0:04:35.720 it's inspired various spin off books, from a young adult 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:39.760 edition to entire books published to refute its claims about 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:43.840 First Nations people and their relationship with the land. Newscorps 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:46.960 in particular, have expended a lot of energy framing Bruce 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:52.280 as this ahistorical force of propaganda. Its nasty, ugly stuff. 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.919 But part of what I like about Bruce Pasco is 0:04:56.240 --> 0:05:01.680 his calm, implacable generosity, his engaged critics and detractors, and 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:04.640 welcome the debate. For all the attempts to co of 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.960 them into the culture was Bruce is not so interested. 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:11.560 He has other stories to tell, and the latest one 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:16.280 is his novel Imperial Harvest. It's set in thirteenth century Mongolia, 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.480 and it follows a one armed soldier, yen See, as 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.839 he contemplates the expectations of others and how a single 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:27.839 person can navigate war and colonialism with grace and endurance. 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:32.080 And it begins with a disclaimer, this author's warning that 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:35.560 sums up how Bruce Pasco approaches the world. 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:40.760 This novel tells a story of great armies, the calumny 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:44.560 of powerful men traveling across the vast lands of Eurasia. 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:48.200 But if there's a date here or a town there 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:53.080 which seems strange, remember that history tosses all fact in 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:57.000 the air, so the victor can choose his own confetti. 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:01.680 In this case, the confetti is chose by the losers, 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:05.440 so be patient. It's not always possible to catch the 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:09.520 polics in their original order, and in any case, it 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.760 will be confetti again tomorrow. Don't be dismayed by this fact. 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:15.200 You're alive, aren't you. 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:20.120 I love the idea of returning to confetti and also 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.080 telling your readers not to be dismayed. I mean, often, 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:28.280 particularly with historical fiction, we have this anxiety of not 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:32.039 just what's true and what's not, but what's a legitimate 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.039 speaking position from which to tell history and what's not? 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:38.520 And setting that note at the front of the novel 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.479 seems to be saying, it's a book, it's here for 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.520 you to have farm. See what it sparks that there 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:48.440 is a lot of implied goodwill in that request of 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:49.360 your readers. 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:52.040 And because of that, it ends in a restaurant where 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:57.080 people enjoy wine, they enjoy food, and they enjoy sharing it, 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:01.599 and they are slightly alarmed by their It was meant 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:07.360 to be a kind gesture of asking people not to hate, 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:10.160 but to come together a little bit. And you know, 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:16.680 it's easy for people to polarize their situation and to 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:20.960 take positions. But I'll never forget being told by a 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:26.360 very old Hawaiian woman that when you're having these arguments, 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:30.360 leave no one behind. In my own tale of Malakuta, 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:34.480 there are debates which have ended up being polarized when 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:41.160 a perfectly good, compromised situation was available. You know, compromises messy, muddy, 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:46.520 unsatisfying to most people, but they're usually more right than wrong. 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:54.160 And we need to treasure the messiness of democracy because 0:07:54.280 --> 0:08:00.520 the cleanliness of autocracy is to be a bored and 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:04.520 we've seen no good example in the world of autocracies 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:10.760 where marginal groups weren't flayed. So I hope we can 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.320 sit down in a restaurant together, the restaurant being the 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:16.400 world and keep talking. 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:21.760 When people think Bruce Pasco, they don't generally think thirteenth 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:26.160 century Mongolia. So what's that about. 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:31.000 Yeah, I know everyone was expecting a certain kind of novel, 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.360 and it did come as a bit of a surprise 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.320 to a lot of people. But the whole idea of 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.400 the novel is to look at the propensity of men 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:44.920 to commit violence, where does it come from? And I 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:49.440 didn't want to just concentrate on the Europeans because people 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:55.600 are expecting me to be critical of European colonialism, but 0:08:55.880 --> 0:09:00.320 there are other examples of colonialism, and Genjis Khan is 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:01.160 as good as anything. 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:04.320 It's one of the biggiest. That's a decent one to 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:04.600 go for. 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.480 To leave me well, to cover an entire continent is 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:09.680 pretty ambitious before. 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:15.480 We get to calm temperamentially? Is that typical of you, Bruce, 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:18.160 Like you know what people expect from you, and so 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.800 you're determined not to give it to them. 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.679 It wasn't a determination this novel. I've been writing for 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:29.960 fifteen years, so it began before Dark Emu. So I'm 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:33.200 not a curmudgeon in that sense. I am a curmudgeon 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.760 in many senses, but not that particular one. It's just 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:40.920 the way my thoughts have been going, and they're a 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:43.800 little bit out of sync. But to me, it doesn't matter. 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:48.400 I'm just looking forward to talking about the book and 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:53.520 for readers to wonder about the book, and then let's 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:57.160 have a conversation about it, because it's the conversations very timely. 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:01.080 The conversation is incredibly timely, and sadly it always will 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:04.160 be a conversation about the nature of war, about the 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:09.480 ways in which it impacts a life, a psyche, a people. 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.600 More generally, you're always going to be blessed with that 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:13.480 feeling topical. 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:18.160 Yeah. Look, when I went to school, I was taught 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:22.560 that war is the natural condition of man. And I 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:26.400 thought at the time, what a bleak prospect for the world, 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:31.120 what a bleak prospect for people individuals, that we have 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.400 to do that. I remember in primary school listening to 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:38.000 the last post on Anzac Day and being so deeply 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:41.240 affected by it because you know, our family had lost 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:47.480 people in both wars and there were very emotional services, 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:50.400 and I thought, Gee, we're just going to keep doing 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:53.600 this forever. There'll be a new Anzac Day and it'll 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:58.440 just repeat ad infinitum. And I thought how sad that was. 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:03.319 But I didn't have the resources as a kid to 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:09.480 look at whether or not that is the truth. And 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:16.760 I've been very fortunate to have met and lived with 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:22.400 people who have another experience of the world, the Aboriginal 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:28.040 cultural world, and our families are connected to that story, 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:34.360 and it's a story without war. So what I'm really 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:38.360 hopeful for is that Australia can have this conversation that 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.880 is war the natural condition of man? Is there another 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.280 way for humans to behave towards each other, and I 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:50.760 think there is I think that's a fabulous philosophical challenge 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:55.079 for this country to think that it might have on 0:11:55.160 --> 0:12:01.679 this continent a solution to what's happening in Palestine at 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:02.120 the moment. 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:05.960 I love that idea and it's a kind of stirring 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.560 and wonderful thought, but I can't help but feel that 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:16.079 colonial Australia, settler Australia does what so many countries do 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:20.920 in its national myth building, which is it appears to 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:25.640 believe that war is essential for your sense of yourself. 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:30.440 We fetishize that experience of war rather than look for 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:32.200 a way to never reproduce it. 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:38.200 Yeah, we see it as essential to ourselves and that 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.600 you know, if an argument gets to a certain point, 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.520 then eventually you will go to arms. And that's a 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:50.440 legitimate political and philosophical stance to take. So to consider 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:54.439 something else is going to take maybe two hundred and 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:59.440 thirty years, and I obviously won't be around, but I'm 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:05.400 determined contribute to that debate and for Australia to consider 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:12.640 that their idea of Australian history might need some refinement, 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:19.560 or that what Aboriginal Australian people were doing was not 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:24.200 hunting and gathering. We can see by the turmoil that 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:32.000 has erupted subsequent to that discussion taking place that it's 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.959 really hard to change people's minds and that they won't 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:36.119 change them peacefully. 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.480 I do think there is something in what you had 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:44.880 to endure in response to Darkama that is a real 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:49.439 precursor to the way the Voice referendum took place, which 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:55.120 is that there was a request, an offering of a 0:13:55.160 --> 0:14:00.200 space for a conversation, and instead of responding to that 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:03.199 in good faith and taking it as a conversation, recognizing 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.800 that there might be ground to be met in the middle, 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:07.920 there might be disagreement, there might be whatever, but the 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:12.000 conversation itself is valuable. Instead of responding in that way, 0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:17.560 the response was vitriolic and violent and about tearing down 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.800 rather than about being willing to take the chat further. 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:24.720 Yeah, I think there is a great parallel there. But 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:30.640 I believe strongly that say, in one hundred and fifty years, 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:34.680 when kids are at university is sitting down to do 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:39.440 their essays, that they will be looking at the events 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:45.280 of last year and the no vote will be a footnote. 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:51.680 But I think Australia has an enormous and positive opportunity 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:57.000 to lead the world intellectually on this point. Not always. 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:58.800 You know, it's not a league ladder and you don't 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:05.000 remain champion for a But in this particular little moment 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:09.000 of time, I think Australia can make a really decent 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:14.560 contribution to world conversation about how we behave as humans. 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:20.240 And what I love about the old people and all 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:25.120 the so called myths or stories. It's really philosophy that 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:29.480 we're talking about, and that philosophy is one of enormous 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:33.040 piece about the kind of structures you put in place 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:37.880 to control humans. Because the human is a really difficult animal. 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:42.880 The human will always be jealous, always be violent, always 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.520 be loving, always be honorable. That mix that is in 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:49.520 all of us, the humans always going to be like that. 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:55.160 But to consider how best to use each of those, 0:15:56.200 --> 0:16:00.359 suppress some and enhance others, I think it's an enormous 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:04.520 I just think it's a great thing for humans to 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:10.240 consider and for us to discuss. It's not a blueprint 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:13.640 that will be built tomorrow. It's up for discussion. 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.120 It's one of the things I so enjoy about your 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:23.080 intellectual and cultural contribution generally, Bruce, is the optimism I 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.920 don't understand. I'm sorry, I'm glad you hold it, and 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:28.160 I wish I shared it, and that is great. But 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:35.040 the generosity of inviting the conversation, inviting the chad, responding 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:38.680 to your critics by saying, absolutely, let's talk about it. 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:41.080 That's not like. There are very few people in public 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:44.200 life I can think of who have more grace when 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:49.200 it comes to believing in the value of what you're doing, 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:52.800 beyond whether people agree with you or don't agree with you. 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:56.080 You can blame my mother and grandmother for that, Yeah, 0:16:56.320 --> 0:17:00.960 because they insisted on decency. I haven't been able to 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:06.640 escape that tug in my brain. But also, I think 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.360 I'm in a good position to be in the argument 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:14.800 because you know, obviously over eighty percent of our family 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:20.920 is white and a small percentage is Aboriginal. So I've 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.359 got an obligation to both sides. And I've got a 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:28.320 huge obligation to white Australia because that's where most of 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:31.520 our genes come from. I have an obligation to that 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:35.400 side of the family to say, look, I'm not ignoring 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:40.440 the cornishman. I'm not ignoring the Englishman. But there's this 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:43.879 other thing, and it's Australia. This is where we can 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:49.000 have an effect on the history of the country. 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:54.160 When we return. Bruce Reveal's way, seas had towns are 0:17:54.200 --> 0:18:12.879 places of descent. We'll be right back. I remember reading 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:15.640 one of your novels many many years ago and being 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.240 so moved by the way you wrote, being so kind 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:25.280 of carried along by the story. But also you write 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:28.800 books clearly from a place of having an idea about 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:32.720 the world that you want to share, you want to prosecute, 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.760 you want to imagine. 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:41.360 Yeah, And I was talking to Melissa Lukashenko and Deborah 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:46.679 Dank yesterday morning about Charles Dickens. This is a good conversation, 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:52.680 good literary conversation, because we'd all read Dickens and we'd 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:59.880 all felt touched by his compassion. But I've just read 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:07.560 Preyo Satia Times Monster where she talks about Dickens's fascism 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:12.879 as well, and that was incredibly disappointing. But he's a human, 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:18.440 He's a flawed human. We're all flawed humans. And it 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.840 was just a fascinating conversation and it's very relevant when 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:26.320 we're having these conversations. It's never black and white. The 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:31.640 shades of gray and other literary reference are immense, and 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.199 we have to accommodate that. We have to continue to 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:38.639 have the conversation rather than saying you're too white or 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:43.359 you're too black, you're so gray, and just keep talking. 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.800 And democracy is the slowest beast on earth, but it's 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:50.479 a very very good beast to have in our paddock. 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:55.200 So accepting that you knew you wanted to write about 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:58.919 the nature and the legacy of war and colonialism, you 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:02.760 knew you wanted to begin that story that journey in 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:08.560 the Northern hemisphere, and you knew that actually European colonialism 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:12.400 wasn't the path that you wanted to look at. That 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:16.800 kind of explains thirteenth century Mongolia as a choice. But 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:21.040 tell us a little bit about a particular one armed 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:24.679 horseman called yEnc and why he was the vessel for 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:26.720 the story that you wanted to tell. 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:32.240 Well, I really wanted to choose someone who history would ignore. 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:37.360 He wasn't a general, he wasn't even a particularly brave soldier. 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:42.240 He was nothing. He was on the scrap heap of humanity. 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:48.440 But he had the good fortune to fall into the 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:53.840 company of a really good man who was also never 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:58.040 going to be noticed by history, a baker, a Miller, 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:03.479 But that Miller, his life's journey had taught him because 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:08.760 of the pain he had endured, that people need care. 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:14.760 So in a way, it's Penkei who is the driver 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:19.720 of the story. Yen say, He's just swept up in 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:26.320 the stream and becomes more worldly and becomes more aware 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:33.000 of his position as a human and finds himself in 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:38.160 a position to make change. So I wanted an anonymous person. 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:43.199 When I began writing Imperial Harvest, I was very anonymous. 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:46.000 You know. You mentioned having read my novels. Well, I 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:51.800 wondered who bought that book, because I've written seven or 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:55.760 eight novels and the sales of each was really small. 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:58.399 I reckon I bought it from you in person and 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:02.680 Malakuda camping around there, and when the market's set up, 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:05.240 and I bought it from you then on a camping holiday. 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:10.640 Yeah. Well, we sold books from that little tent for 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:18.040 a decade or more, nearly two decades. And the conversations 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:23.600 in that tent, if they ever got to the Australia's 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:27.359 spy Agency, we've been all in trouble. Because it was 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:31.399 a ferment of rebellion. 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:34.120 I think the spy agency is known not to look 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:37.720 at Malakuda, but it's a hotbed. There's dangerous stuff going 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:40.040 on there. They're better to turn a blind eye. 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:44.520 Well, one of my novels talks about seaside villages as 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:48.520 being places of descent because fishermen don't give us stuff 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:49.240 about anyone. 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:53.040 Yeah, and they've got time to talk things through. It's 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.960 not about action, it's about about scheming. 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:03.840 It is and in imperiod harvest through whole groups of 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:09.639 sailors and fishermen, and that's what they do. They because 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:13.440 their life is on the sea. They feel themselves totally 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:17.400 independent of the land, and they have contempt for politicians 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:22.119 and the pirates. You know, the sea and piracy go together. 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:25.680 It's one of the very nice things about how the 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:29.160 book functions. Imperial harvest functions, and you kind of alluded 0:23:29.200 --> 0:23:33.440 to this before, But because it centers around a protagonist 0:23:33.440 --> 0:23:36.200 who is passive is the wrong word, but is kind 0:23:36.200 --> 0:23:40.920 of buffeted by war, by circumstance, by history, it means 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:44.679 that the characters who emerge around the fringes of the 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:49.159 story are often incredibly compelling. They're pushing it forward in 0:23:49.200 --> 0:23:50.280 really interesting ways. 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:55.200 Well, I'm glad you see it like that, because I 0:23:56.680 --> 0:24:00.000 was afraid that my mangling of history would have become 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:04.919 a theme. Because if it's not an historical novel, because 0:24:05.760 --> 0:24:11.640 I've shifted geographies, I've shifted historical events. But I'm more 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:16.359 fascinated by people than i am by history, and people 0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:20.639 generate history. But it's more or less like an aside. 0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:26.080 It's the people themselves, and I think goodness and badness 0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:31.879 drive the world, and it's that's up to us to 0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:33.000 decide which is which. 0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:36.280 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Finally, just because 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:38.080 I have to ask for myself, because I haven't been 0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:42.440 back for years, how's Malakuda going past the fires? 0:24:43.600 --> 0:24:49.959 Malakuda is his wonderful self. You know, three rivers, two lakes, 0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:56.240 the ocean. It's hard to destroy the beauty of that. 0:24:57.840 --> 0:25:01.400 The bush recovered very quickly, the people not as quickly. 0:25:03.400 --> 0:25:09.479 Friends of mine put the roof on their house a 0:25:09.520 --> 0:25:13.800 fortnight ago after losing their house in the fire. Another 0:25:13.840 --> 0:25:16.800 good friend of mine was a renter, doesn't have a 0:25:16.800 --> 0:25:19.919 house at all. The psyche of the town is different. 0:25:20.680 --> 0:25:24.879 And maybe it's my age group because I've lost a 0:25:24.920 --> 0:25:29.480 lot of friends I've known since nineteen seventy in the 0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:32.040 last few years, and they were the real rebels and 0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:36.320 rat bags and the people with whom if you caught 0:25:36.359 --> 0:25:38.240 their eye in the street, they would not let you 0:25:38.280 --> 0:25:40.560 go because they'd want to talk to you about politics. 0:25:40.960 --> 0:25:45.919 They'd want to tell you how disgraceful the Australian cricket 0:25:45.960 --> 0:25:48.960 team is all that conversation. A lot of that's gone, 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:52.840 so the fun for me has gone out of the town. 0:25:52.920 --> 0:25:55.880 But there are young kids. They are making their own 0:25:56.200 --> 0:26:00.000 legends and their own society to which I'm not a part, 0:26:00.600 --> 0:26:02.480 and I have to get used to that because I'm 0:26:02.480 --> 0:26:03.040 an old man. 0:26:04.560 --> 0:26:06.200 We all have to get used to that one way 0:26:06.280 --> 0:26:08.479 or the other. But as long as you keep writing books, 0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:11.960 you've got that entry point straight back into that. You 0:26:12.000 --> 0:26:15.920 can be an old man on the edge keeping an eye. 0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:18.600 Look, I'm writing such a wonderful thing. 0:26:18.640 --> 0:26:18.840 You know. 0:26:19.440 --> 0:26:23.040 I look at musicians, you know, tugging their cello onto 0:26:23.040 --> 0:26:27.480 the airplane, artists you know, with rolls and rolls of 0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:32.119 fine paper, and you know, I jump on the plane 0:26:32.119 --> 0:26:32.679 with a buyer. 0:26:33.040 --> 0:26:37.040 Yeah. Perfect, perfect. Bruce Pasco, thank you so much for 0:26:37.080 --> 0:26:42.360 your type. Thank you Bruce Pasco's latest novel, Imperial Harvest, 0:26:42.480 --> 0:26:44.440 is out now and you can get it at all 0:26:44.480 --> 0:26:48.200 good independent bookstores. And just to piss off Andrew Bolt, 0:26:48.240 --> 0:26:50.600 go buy another copy of Dark Emu while you're at it, 0:26:51.320 --> 0:26:52.359 just to twist that If. 0:27:00.000 --> 0:27:02.720 Thanks for listening to Bruce Pasco and read this. For 0:27:02.760 --> 0:27:04.560 the next couple of months, we're going to bring you 0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:07.040 some of the best interviews from the show. Every Sunday, 0:27:07.440 --> 0:27:10.960 listen out for conversations with Eric Beacher, Mary Beard. 0:27:10.720 --> 0:27:11.200 And more. 0:27:11.880 --> 0:27:13.800 And if you don't want to wait until next Sunday 0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:16.240 to dive in to read this, you can search for 0:27:16.280 --> 0:27:19.399 it wherever you listen to podcasts. There's a whole year's 0:27:19.400 --> 0:27:32.240 worth of fascinating conversations ready for you.