Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: In Part two of my chat with former bank Robert
Speaker 1: Doug Morgan, we delve further into his life as a
Speaker 1: notorist armed robber, how he and his brother Pete were
Speaker 1: arrested after a police officer was shot during an armed robbery.
Speaker 1: We also discuss how he survived Penridge jail, how he
Speaker 1: turned his life around, and the warning he has for
Speaker 1: others that might consider following the path he took. I
Speaker 1: also asked Doug how he now feels about all the
Speaker 1: people he terrorized during his career as a bank robber.
Speaker 1: It was an interesting chat, that's for sure. Okay, Doug Morgan,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Hang on, What am I doing on this one? This
Speaker 2: is I'm not a killer?
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's a fine life, fine line when you
Speaker 1: walking to a bank or a tab with a gun.
Speaker 2: I totally agree, and when I look back the mistake
Speaker 2: I made I was a bank teller. I believe that
Speaker 2: anybody behind the counter and a TV or a bank
Speaker 2: was trained the same as I was. Because I grew
Speaker 2: up in a crime family, my capacity to handle things
Speaker 2: is probably different to people who have been trained but
Speaker 2: don't have the capacity to handle the actual live situation.
Speaker 2: So I actually believe that they would be about as
Speaker 2: stressed as I would be if I was the bank teller.
Speaker 2: And a funny little story is I wasn't allowed to
Speaker 2: have a gun because I was seventeen when I was
Speaker 2: a bank teller. I'd been trained, but I wasn't actually
Speaker 2: physically allowed to have a gun. So I went down
Speaker 2: the street to let's say, an army disposal store, and
Speaker 2: I bought the biggest and longest and most offensive looking
Speaker 2: letter opener I could have, and used to put it
Speaker 2: on my desk, on my teller's unit. And if you
Speaker 2: try to rob me, I'm going to stab you with
Speaker 2: my letter opener.
Speaker 1: Well, see, that's the thing when you go in there,
Speaker 1: and that's why I talk about the risk or before
Speaker 1: you go in, you do not know how people are
Speaker 1: going to react when confronted by that situation.
Speaker 2: Well, do you want to know how I felt about
Speaker 2: all that being a bank teller? How I used to think,
Speaker 2: hope they don't shoot me, because I'll probably be on
Speaker 2: their side. And now I'll tell a joke that if
Speaker 2: you had to try to rob me in those days,
Speaker 2: I would have went one for you, one for me,
Speaker 2: one for you, one for me, and we'll all go
Speaker 2: home happy tonight.
Speaker 1: What hope did that bank have had? Did you get
Speaker 1: sacked or did you quit as a talent?
Speaker 2: Well, I had to leave with my father.
Speaker 1: Oh that's right. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Now you said you want a real scoop, You want
Speaker 2: a real scoop.
Speaker 1: Yeah, give us a scoop. We're always out for a scoop, right.
Speaker 2: I was a brilliant bank teller, and in those days
Speaker 2: it wasn't computerized, and it was up to me every
Speaker 2: night to balance my books. And because I was pretty
Speaker 2: good at it, the number one teller never used to
Speaker 2: check my money, and I started to work this out
Speaker 2: that I was pretty well trusted. We were on the
Speaker 2: first floor of a building right in the middle of
Speaker 2: the city in Melbourne. In the basement was a ta
Speaker 2: b wow. What one of myself and one of my
Speaker 2: knock about mates that was working at the bank who
Speaker 2: became buddies because we were two of the let's say,
Speaker 2: working class boys, you know me and I time the
Speaker 2: other boys would say to me, Doggie, you want to
Speaker 2: go down and look at tis in the shops. I go,
Speaker 2: what the hell are you talking about? Look at tis?
Speaker 2: I've got one tie, that's it. I got one suit,
Speaker 2: that's it. Leave me alone. Anyway, So what we would
Speaker 2: do at lunchtime is we would sort out some bets.
Speaker 2: I would withdraw money from my unit and would make
Speaker 2: a plunge. Now, in the old days, tabs pay you
Speaker 2: out at five point thirty after the day's takings, so
Speaker 2: I couldn't get the money back win or lose in
Speaker 2: time to balance my books. So I would have to
Speaker 2: falsify nearly every night my bank Telly's unit or would
Speaker 2: call it, you know, was a unit, but that would
Speaker 2: money would go back in the safe every night. So
Speaker 2: I would falsify in my books most nights to cover
Speaker 2: my bedding and the next day I'd get the money
Speaker 2: the next lunchtime, so I'd work a day behind. So
Speaker 2: I had the A and Z basically bank rolling Doug
Speaker 2: Morgan Punter anything.
Speaker 1: Well, I can't see how that could have gone wrong.
Speaker 1: If you're lost, lucky you had something to get back.
Speaker 2: But it did lose once and I had to sign
Speaker 2: because this can be done just in paperwork. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: I made a withdrawal the next day once out of
Speaker 2: my savings account to balance the books because I only
Speaker 2: remember losing once. Yeah, I actually did lose eighty dollars
Speaker 2: out of my own account. You're juggling, but it felt
Speaker 2: better when it was theirs.
Speaker 1: Well, doesn't hurt as much when you lose someone else's money,
Speaker 1: I suppose. Okay, I want to clarify one thing before
Speaker 1: we go into this next part. Your brother's still around, yes,
Speaker 1: and you two are talking. I don't want to cause
Speaker 1: a rift in the family.
Speaker 2: He came down to see me actually on the weekend
Speaker 2: at rudolg Bar and Pendridge.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's not going good. Well, talk us through the
Speaker 1: police officer that was shot and Ray Koss. What's a
Speaker 1: factual account of it? When your brother shot Ray Koch?
Speaker 2: Okay, I wasn't there. There was never any planning for
Speaker 2: shooting people that was off limits. If you got to
Speaker 2: that point, you'd failed. You'd failed our rules of engagement.
Speaker 2: We had rules of engagement that if the job was
Speaker 2: too hot, you walk away. His ego didn't allow that anyway.
Speaker 2: So he drags the copper out of the car. He says,
Speaker 2: you're a copper. He takes his car keys off and
Speaker 2: froze into the paddock next next to and shoves the
Speaker 2: gun into his stomach. This guy who was driving home,
Speaker 2: innocent copper. And then my brother's got a way of
Speaker 2: belittling people when he's got a gun in his hand.
Speaker 2: The next time he goes there, Ray Kosh got close
Speaker 2: to him and the gun was again in the side
Speaker 2: of a person's body, and this time the gun goes off.
Speaker 2: The next day he allows another copper to get close
Speaker 2: to him. Gun again goes into the stomach of a
Speaker 2: copper but this time the safety was on and he's
Speaker 2: left handed, so he couldn't get the safety off. According
Speaker 2: to the copper, this was rick hasty. Yeah, forget about
Speaker 2: everything else. Just as a common sense person, if you
Speaker 2: keep sticking guns against people's bodies, when does it go off?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, there's consequences and the risk. And you've said
Speaker 1: you always looked at the bank if it's too hot,
Speaker 1: and look at risks and try to mitigate mitigate the risk.
Speaker 2: Let's say I've got you. You're a copper. Yeah, Let's
Speaker 2: say I've got you. You've got no gun, Yeah, and
Speaker 2: I've got a gun. I'd be foolish to let you
Speaker 2: come within arms reach of me, wouldn't I.
Speaker 1: Oh, you'd be in trouble if you did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you're going to have a go.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Just what my brother did. He used to walk up
Speaker 2: and stick the gun in the side of which means
Speaker 2: he went to three coppers and allowed all of them
Speaker 2: to be within struggling range. Now, now I have a flip. Look,
Speaker 2: I make jest of a lot of things, and sometimes
Speaker 2: I even make jest of this. Guns are not for
Speaker 2: wrestling over.
Speaker 1: No, that's very true, very true.
Speaker 2: I tell you something I'm going to tell you something
Speaker 2: that I've never said to anybody. I asked my brother
Speaker 2: why he had got out of the search area after
Speaker 2: shooting Raykosh and robbing the bank, and look, I don't
Speaker 2: know if it was accidental, you don't know. We'll never know.
Speaker 2: I wasn't there. He didn't follow our procedures and continued
Speaker 2: and that was the result of him not following our
Speaker 2: procedures of engagement with police. Our rules of engagement should
Speaker 2: not have allowed him to even be there when the
Speaker 2: police was so hot. But he broke those rules because
Speaker 2: his ego and he being the commander in chief or
Speaker 2: general as he saw himself, he kept changing the rules.
Speaker 1: Now that the rule's been the pac that you guys
Speaker 1: had made, Yeah, we had rule, We discussed.
Speaker 2: Everything was discussed and planned down to the we had
Speaker 2: in the scrub. We had flash torches, not to be
Speaker 2: used because a helicopter would see them, but for a
Speaker 2: pickup point if it was at nighttime. We have codes,
Speaker 2: and I'll flash you the code if I'm picking you up,
Speaker 2: and you will flash me back a code, even to
Speaker 2: the extent if you don't flash me back the code
Speaker 2: and you're in a car, I won't come out because
Speaker 2: the coppers might have you in your car. So unless
Speaker 2: you give me the real code, I'm not even coming out,
Speaker 2: even if I know it's you. So we had over
Speaker 2: a thing really well regimented for the safety of everybody.
Speaker 2: Do you think we planned robberies to get caught? We
Speaker 2: planned robberies to go home. Now the next day he
Speaker 2: breached your perimeter because O're planning even after shooting a
Speaker 2: copper and you flooded the area or you or your
Speaker 2: let's say you, well, keep it you, you and me mate,
Speaker 2: it's you and me today. All right.
Speaker 1: I'm happy you're getting me excited. I'd like to be
Speaker 1: going after you guys. Yeah, okay, we've set up the well.
Speaker 2: I think we can do a movie if I saw you.
Speaker 2: If I draw first, don't draw yours, because I'll let
Speaker 2: you go home, but you let me walk as well.
Speaker 2: We'll be doing good that day. But the trouble is
Speaker 2: you're going to shoot me. Do you know what I
Speaker 2: planned once to make I was going to have on
Speaker 2: the back of my bike a rack that was bulletproof
Speaker 2: so you couldn't shoot me as I rode away.
Speaker 1: I think ned Kelly came up with that a few
Speaker 1: years ago or before.
Speaker 2: But I'm not a Ned Kelly fan. I paint Ned Kelly,
Speaker 2: but I'm not a fan because he broke my rules too.
Speaker 2: He shot people.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you understand that, because I saw the result,
Speaker 1: whether it was in the stick ups or in homicide
Speaker 1: where people get shot, that's devastating.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Now, I said to my brother, you got out
Speaker 2: of the search area, you got to the pickup point
Speaker 2: if it's too hot and I can't get in because
Speaker 2: it's too many cops. Because there was a perimeter, and
Speaker 2: he broke the perimeter, but he didn't bring he didn't
Speaker 2: break the outside perimeter, so they had a first perimeter.
Speaker 2: It was about ten kilometers, which was normal than those
Speaker 2: days either or the other perimeter, yep outer perimeter was
Speaker 2: a lot wider. And I couldn't get back in to
Speaker 2: get him out of the pickup point. And our pickup
Speaker 2: point was daylight the next day, because we're working in
Speaker 2: the country. If you're hot, it's the next day. If
Speaker 2: I can't get in because it's too hot. And I
Speaker 2: actually went through a roadblock, and I was quick enough
Speaker 2: to work out how to get back outside the roadblock
Speaker 2: that i'd just driven through. That's the time for another story.
Speaker 2: But if I don't pick him up at the pickup
Speaker 2: point at daylight, he has to wait twenty four hours
Speaker 2: because I'll come, I'll becoming I need to get you
Speaker 2: out of there because.
Speaker 1: We are we talking generally here?
Speaker 2: Or is this no? This was on the last job.
Speaker 2: This was the last job, but the same rules followed.
Speaker 2: The pickup point was at a certain time. If the
Speaker 2: pickup point was not accessible, wait twenty four hours and
Speaker 2: go a bit like in the army where they have
Speaker 2: to be at the helicopter pickup point, you have times
Speaker 2: to be picked up. If it doesn't happen, it's twenty
Speaker 2: four hours, pick up twenty four hours. Because if I'm
Speaker 2: not there, there's a reason why I'm not picking you up,
Speaker 2: because it's for your safety, my safety, and everybody's safety.
Speaker 2: I'm not coming in anyway. So I said to him
Speaker 2: a few years ago, I said, so why didn't you
Speaker 2: stay at the pickup point? Because they would have never
Speaker 2: found you, and the after dark band Heed could have
Speaker 2: assessed what you've done and decided what the future was.
Speaker 2: I would have been stressing to him that it was
Speaker 2: over and we walk away and it's all over, and
Speaker 2: the war is over with the coppers and the chess
Speaker 2: games and all that. Thank you lucky stars that we
Speaker 2: can still walk away. But hopefully everything will be okay. Now,
Speaker 2: do you know what he said to me, I played
Speaker 2: by the rules. If I shoot one of you guys,
Speaker 2: what does that mean I have given you right the
Speaker 2: shoe me on site.
Speaker 1: Well, you're going to have a ton of bricks coming
Speaker 1: down on you, that's for sure.
Speaker 2: Do you know what I said to him? He said, Oh,
Speaker 2: they would have They would have shot me. Now I
Speaker 2: think that is so too faced. I said to him immediately,
Speaker 2: but you shot one of them, And now you tell
Speaker 2: me you're going to run because you're worried they're going
Speaker 2: to shoot you. If I shot one of you guys,
Speaker 2: I would take my punishment, whatever that may be.
Speaker 1: The old head each lived by the sword, died by
Speaker 1: the sword. If you want to start engaging in gun battles, well, I'm.
Speaker 2: Certainly exactly, but I would have. If I had shot
Speaker 2: one of you guys. It would have been by accident,
Speaker 2: maybe a warning shot that went wrong or something like that.
Speaker 2: But I don't think that would have happened. And I've
Speaker 2: never been really tested. I like to think that I
Speaker 2: would have been good enough to avoid a full long confrontation.
Speaker 2: I like to believe, And that's maybe one thing I
Speaker 2: really don't want to even answer or even think about,
Speaker 2: because it's horrific if I had to answer that.
Speaker 1: It's a hard question to answer, isn't it. What would
Speaker 1: you do if a cop if I had fronted you
Speaker 1: with a gun and that was freedom or put the
Speaker 1: bullet in me? What you must have process that in
Speaker 1: your mind at some stage when you're going.
Speaker 2: I think I really had belief in my strategies because
Speaker 2: the strategy were going pretty good up to twenty three
Speaker 2: jobs without a skeeric of evidence. So probably the father went.
Speaker 2: You started to believe your strategies were working and that
Speaker 2: you were a good tactician, and you were really playing
Speaker 2: a game of chess with the coppers and they kept losing.
Speaker 1: You said with your brother, like an ego kicked in.
Speaker 1: That was it a false ego or belief that you
Speaker 1: both might have had that, Okay, we can get away
Speaker 1: of this. We're out smartening them. Look they're running around
Speaker 1: like headless choks.
Speaker 2: No, because what I knew, because he didn't see this,
Speaker 2: what I knew every time we started stealing a motorbike,
Speaker 2: we were giving you one up. You would go motor
Speaker 2: like from a motorbike shop and they would usually be
Speaker 2: country motorbike shops. So what would that mean if if
Speaker 2: you're you're you would dealt with serial crimes in your life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we might meet the sharpest pencil in the packers
Speaker 1: as cops. But if in a lead up to a
Speaker 1: robbery that the motor bike gets stolen in the country town,
Speaker 1: then the bank gets robbed, Yeah, do it twice? We
Speaker 1: might start to see something three times we'll be on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I knew what he was doing before I
Speaker 2: decided not to do anymore. I'll be honest. I tried
Speaker 2: to talk him into changing our moo, not striking as
Speaker 2: often and not striking as the after dark banded. Because
Speaker 2: what people don't realize, and it's still with me today
Speaker 2: that I stopped. Do you think because I stopped, I
Speaker 2: was free?
Speaker 1: Yeah? When you when you say stop, But like this
Speaker 1: last job where the shooting, because he got arrested after that,
Speaker 1: what were you doing looking to pick him up? You see,
Speaker 1: you're out of it?
Speaker 2: What happened? I said, I would never carry a gun again.
Speaker 2: I would never and I wasn't going to work with
Speaker 2: him again. But a friend of mine asked me if
Speaker 2: they could borrow ten thousand to put together an inter
Speaker 2: state truck business, and I went. Then I knew he
Speaker 2: was about to pull a job, and he'd been averaging
Speaker 2: about fifteen thousand, and I said to him, I'll give
Speaker 2: you assistance, but I'm not in ever again. I need
Speaker 2: ten thousand for a friend. Now, that was also false
Speaker 2: loyalty to my brother right through the whole thing. And
Speaker 2: then again when I look at it, that was false
Speaker 2: loyalty to my friend because I was willing to go
Speaker 2: back against my own decision to get ten thousand for
Speaker 2: not even for me, it was for somebody else.
Speaker 1: So I've heard of too many old school guys like
Speaker 1: yourself that have come unstuck because of that misguided loyalty
Speaker 1: and getting dragged back into things because look, you, I
Speaker 1: was a favor. Just do this one thing, and time
Speaker 1: and time again, people sitting here having a chat tell
Speaker 1: that story.
Speaker 2: You want to know the real story? Yeah, and my
Speaker 2: brother knows it, so I can say this. I couldn't
Speaker 2: actually look him in the eye at one stage and
Speaker 2: say he worked on me and worked on me and
Speaker 2: worked on me when I told him I'm out, So
Speaker 2: I thought just to end this continual harassment of you've
Speaker 2: got to do a job, you can't get out. I
Speaker 2: never planned the job. He told me a job, and
Speaker 2: a week before he did the last job, I agreed
Speaker 2: to go to do his job. Nobody knows this, but
Speaker 2: it's important because it's got a lot to do with
Speaker 2: peer group pressure, which is evil.
Speaker 1: For it's a lesson that pass on to others too.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So I we take a motorbike to the area,
Speaker 2: same as we normally did, in the back of a
Speaker 2: horse float. So you can drive all around Australia with
Speaker 2: a horse float and you've got horses, you haven't got motorbikes.
Speaker 2: Nobody's going to suspect a horse robbing a bank. They're
Speaker 2: expecting if you have a motorbike on an open trailer
Speaker 2: that I saw that guy this morning driving a Falcon.
Speaker 1: GT, I say the logic of your thinking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, So he takes me the area of a job.
Speaker 2: The job was up at Hayfield. And this is the
Speaker 2: honest gospel and something I've never spoken about before, but
Speaker 2: I think these things are important. I knew I wasn't
Speaker 2: going to pull the job. I sabotaged the bike, didn't
Speaker 2: do the job right. He knows that the bank didn't
Speaker 2: go down. Now, in a strange way, I carry a
Speaker 2: bit of guilt. If I carry that job out and
Speaker 2: I do it safely, maybe Cosh doesn't get shot.
Speaker 1: I see the connection.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I carry that and when the job doesn't
Speaker 2: go down, he comes back to get me and I go,
Speaker 2: I couldn't get the bike going. There's something wrong with it.
Speaker 2: I knew exactly what was wrong with it. I did it.
Speaker 2: So in a strange way, I have a little bit
Speaker 2: of guilt.
Speaker 1: And say, the job where Kosh got.
Speaker 2: That would have gone down to.
Speaker 1: That because he had to do a job when you
Speaker 1: guys were doing this. And then there's the after Dark Bandits.
Speaker 1: You became the bandit even though there was two of you.
Speaker 1: You became the most wanted person in Australia. How did
Speaker 1: that feel? No, they're not most wanted because everyone liked you.
Speaker 1: Most wanted by the cops because you kept robbing places.
Speaker 2: Well, in a strange way, I suppose I wear it
Speaker 2: as a badge. Yeah, but I see this. I see
Speaker 2: the funny side to it that compared to a lot
Speaker 2: of other criminals, I'm a nervous, very non dangerous. So
Speaker 2: it just shows how exaggerated the tag can be.
Speaker 1: And I would imagine that it would have hit the
Speaker 1: media and you would have been following the media that
Speaker 1: the Australia's most wanted bandit.
Speaker 2: I was looking at my face on the TV, going, God,
Speaker 2: you're an ugly basard. You better grow a beard.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you this question, but I
Speaker 1: don't want to get anyone in the trouble. But there's
Speaker 1: probably statute of limitations. Did anyone else know outside you
Speaker 1: and your brother?
Speaker 2: No, and my wife didn't know. And I'll tell you
Speaker 2: the truth. I discussed this. We have even friends. How
Speaker 2: stupid would I be to tell a wife that I'm
Speaker 2: a bank robber. There's two bad angles. One have you
Speaker 2: have you got children that play sport and you're worry
Speaker 2: about them hurting themselves playing sport.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine a wife sitting at home while you're
Speaker 2: doing a bank Yeah, that's that'd be pretty stressful. That's
Speaker 2: one reason why you don't tell them. The other reason
Speaker 2: is I'm a professional trained by my father and I'm
Speaker 2: more akrim than most crims will ever be. But I
Speaker 2: choose not to rob banks now, so you don't include
Speaker 2: other people because this is the lesson of life for marriages,
Speaker 2: break in divorce. Would you like your ex wife knowing
Speaker 2: you were a bank robber and asking for more alimony?
Speaker 1: No? And look, I've got to be on this here.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk about my ex wife. But
Speaker 1: from a CoP's point of view, they were ex partners.
Speaker 1: Let's put it just in that term. Ex partners are
Speaker 1: a great source of information because vengeance can be a
Speaker 1: terrible thing. And ah, we haven't got a breakthrough, but
Speaker 1: this relationship's broken up, and let's go have a chat
Speaker 1: with one.
Speaker 2: There's an angle. There's an angle.
Speaker 1: Okay, your brothers, he's got to rest it in the
Speaker 1: lame way by Rick Hasey the cop there, and part
Speaker 1: of your agreement between that he doesn't talk and you've
Speaker 1: got at least twelve hours to said.
Speaker 2: Hang on, no, there's no agreement. We had a very
Speaker 2: heated discussion on Sunday about this. I'm going to put
Speaker 2: this to you. Yeah, Now, all the bank robbers and
Speaker 2: all the crooks you've ever met, Yeah, could you imagine
Speaker 2: two of them sitting down and reaching agreement where you're
Speaker 2: going to lag each other after twelve hours.
Speaker 1: No, I was surprised that if I've missed it interpreted
Speaker 1: that I thought not even going to say a word
Speaker 1: for twelve hours, because I've had crooks before me that
Speaker 1: have just sat there and just not said a word.
Speaker 1: Real hard ass.
Speaker 2: On Sunday, he tried to convince me that I agreed
Speaker 2: to that.
Speaker 1: That you give him up after twelve hours, or that
Speaker 1: he gives you up after twelve Yeah.
Speaker 2: So what sort of fool would I be to say
Speaker 2: to somebody, Yeah, I'm cool with you giving me up
Speaker 2: after twelve hours? What the stuff am I going? I've
Speaker 2: cleaned that up, haven't I? What the stuff am I
Speaker 2: going to do with twelve hours? I haven't got a passport.
Speaker 1: I'm not part of your crew, and I'm not your brothers.
Speaker 1: But I would have expected that if you get caught,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying a word about you, and if vice
Speaker 1: versa like, keep your mouth shut.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you the real story how the whole
Speaker 2: thing was set up. There's two parts to crime, and
Speaker 2: you know this, all right, we do the bank. What's
Speaker 2: the second part of crime? Having alibis and getting away
Speaker 2: with it. Even if you get caught, you've got to
Speaker 2: beat the blue in court. Otherwise, why did you do it? Now?
Speaker 2: The day he shot the copper, I drove his car
Speaker 2: to his horse trainer's place. And back in those days
Speaker 2: we're twins, we looked the same set up. Ali, I
Speaker 2: said his alibi up from the front gate. Because I
Speaker 2: tooted the horn, he came out of his stable. I
Speaker 2: waved to him. Even our voices are similar, and I've
Speaker 2: yelled out, I'll be back later. So I've just given
Speaker 2: him an alibi an hour before the bank, and the
Speaker 2: bank goes down two and a half hours away. Now
Speaker 2: I went home and my wife usually in the afternoon,
Speaker 2: after picking up the children, and the women across the
Speaker 2: road picking up the children, they would sit in her
Speaker 2: lounge room and have a coffee. So I will the
Speaker 2: bank was going down, I'm sitting across the road in
Speaker 2: somebody else's house. Now it's like the old ad do
Speaker 2: you want snake steak knives? As well? The house was
Speaker 2: the home of a copper.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're setting up the alibi.
Speaker 2: That's how we worked. Yeah, And the whole point was,
Speaker 2: and I'm going to give it to you. I don't
Speaker 2: know if this would work or not. The original plan,
Speaker 2: which I was willing to stick to but he didn't,
Speaker 2: was that if he gets arrested and they don't shoot
Speaker 2: him and he has not id the other brother has
Speaker 2: probably got a bit of time to think what's going
Speaker 2: to go down, right, because he's dead. It could have
Speaker 2: been me that was dead, by the way, not just him.
Speaker 2: She's my hand is starting to shake a little bit
Speaker 2: talking about this. Then let's say they arrest him or
Speaker 2: they arrest me. There'd be a court appearance, maybe two
Speaker 2: days later or whatever, a bit of slap around, a
Speaker 2: bit of questioning with the old phone book. If you
Speaker 2: don't talk where the phone book? Right, go to court,
Speaker 2: because the other twin will walk into court and say
Speaker 2: not a word and just sit there. Now, you if
Speaker 2: you were the resting officer and you saw a twin
Speaker 2: brother sitting in the audience and you're trying to pint
Speaker 2: it on this bloke, you have to pint it on
Speaker 2: the correct brother in the right bank. Not as a necessory,
Speaker 2: but you have to put the right brother in the bank.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you asked me the question. I can see the complications.
Speaker 1: I saw it in myin career. I won't mention the
Speaker 1: actual murder, but the murder where some twins were good
Speaker 1: persons of interest for it. Then they cause a lot
Speaker 1: of problems by the fact that they were identical identical twins.
Speaker 2: Well, do you know what happened once he got arrested.
Speaker 2: Let's just say he was helping it in their investigation.
Speaker 1: Co operating.
Speaker 2: I think, yeah. But anyway, so we're going to now
Speaker 2: try and beat it in court because you have to pinpointous.
Speaker 2: Now you know that that's going to be rather difficult.
Speaker 1: Well, you've just got to be on reasonable doubt and
Speaker 1: you walk free.
Speaker 2: Now what happened was because he was, let's say, making
Speaker 2: enough confessions, and the solicitor came in the next day.
Speaker 2: He said, he see what's going down. He said, you
Speaker 2: do realize that he's cooperated so much that you're now
Speaker 2: the bad boy. You know what they said to him.
Speaker 2: If you make the statements and plead guilty, it won't
Speaker 2: come out in court and you'll be able to sell
Speaker 2: a movie. You're laughing.
Speaker 1: I'm laughing. I think, if they're going to come up
Speaker 1: with something, come up with something better than that. But
Speaker 1: I understand.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, they got him his ego, they got him.
Speaker 1: Well, I've always said in an interview room, you play
Speaker 1: the person's weakness or you exploit that weakness. Now, if ego,
Speaker 1: and I'm talking generally here, I'm not saying that's Pete's thing,
Speaker 1: but if that's ego that sometimes, jeez, you are a good,
Speaker 1: good bank robber. You've got the way of all these
Speaker 1: And then oh, I actually did more. Yeah, you play
Speaker 1: the people's.
Speaker 2: Well he did. He told them, he told them about
Speaker 2: a job that we did as a two man job.
Speaker 2: They didn't know about it. Now, so what should have
Speaker 2: happened is we should have been a really interesting court battle,
Speaker 2: because a court batter gives you power with let's say,
Speaker 2: a plea bargain.
Speaker 1: Well, that's true. If it's a week a case, it's
Speaker 1: easier to bargain.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, my solicitor said straight away, he's given him
Speaker 2: enough evidence that they won't get you on twenty five
Speaker 2: if you fight it. But they're going to give you
Speaker 2: ten years for the first one because they're not going
Speaker 2: to let you go, he said, So you've got nowhere
Speaker 2: to go. Now. The next step was the fact that
Speaker 2: these statements were so strong and you know, I'm not
Speaker 2: going to say you'll fit people up, but if you
Speaker 2: know the story, because he's given you so much information,
Speaker 2: you can then go to other people and say, where
Speaker 2: was Doug on a certain night because his brother says
Speaker 2: it was over here. They would have went to my
Speaker 2: wife and said, on the night of such and such
Speaker 2: does your brother or sorry, was your husband home? And
Speaker 2: she would have said no, they built houses in the
Speaker 2: country and he goes away for a week at a time.
Speaker 2: So I was fitted because my wife goes, oh, no,
Speaker 2: he wasn't home that night.
Speaker 1: How did that make you feel like we're pissed off
Speaker 1: with your brother?
Speaker 2: No, I'm a very understanding person. I'm not even angry
Speaker 2: at my brother. You have to take responsibility because if
Speaker 2: you keep blaming other people for your life, that means
Speaker 2: you've got no control.
Speaker 1: Well, Doug, that answers a lot to me, because I
Speaker 1: was looking at your store and your brother's story, and
Speaker 1: I thought, oh God, we're going to have an hour
Speaker 1: of you going that doggie did this, he did that,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Yeah, the way I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people would react. But I understand where you're coming
Speaker 1: from and that you accept your responsibilities. You're not going
Speaker 1: to judge others. Everyone's different, so I do get an
Speaker 1: understanding of what you're saying.
Speaker 2: The greatest moment would be in my life if my
Speaker 2: brother would just accept what he did and stop trying
Speaker 2: to script the truth to hide his failures in life,
Speaker 2: because my life had a lot of failures. The robberies,
Speaker 2: they're failures. You know what I really think about bank
Speaker 2: robbers and people in prison. I don't like you. I
Speaker 2: really don't like you. I knocked around with some of
Speaker 2: the heaviest criminals in Victoria's history, and I played tennis
Speaker 2: with them on a tennis court. We're tennis players. I
Speaker 2: don't like what you did off this court. While we're
Speaker 2: on this court, we'll play tennis, but we will not
Speaker 2: be friends off this court.
Speaker 1: It makes sense. And the conversation we had the other day,
Speaker 1: you were talking about criminals and even the way you
Speaker 1: look at there's criminals that commit crime to make money
Speaker 1: for money, crime for money. Then there's criminals that commit
Speaker 1: crimes of violence, of vengeance and all the other things
Speaker 1: that may evate people that commit horrendous crimes, and you
Speaker 1: deviate between those.
Speaker 2: I try to explain it to people. I'm mixed with
Speaker 2: Victoria's worse or in the jail with Victoria's worst sex
Speaker 2: offenders and child molesters and all sorts of things. I said,
Speaker 2: how did I get here?
Speaker 1: What? Well?
Speaker 2: I'm not this is not natural for me.
Speaker 1: That was your first stint inside? Yes, how were you arrested?
Speaker 1: When were you arrested? And what were you convicted of?
Speaker 2: I was convicted of about twenty four to twenty five
Speaker 2: armed robberies, use of a firearm, stealing motor cars. I
Speaker 2: was arrested unarmed by about forty coppers. I didn't surrender.
Speaker 2: I ran down a laneway off a beach and ran
Speaker 2: into the side of a divvy van right. They jumped
Speaker 2: on me like a rugby scrum NRL style Up there.
Speaker 2: All I could hear was grab the bag. Grab the bag,
Speaker 2: there's probably a gun in it. And all I can
Speaker 2: think of while I'm lying under all these coppers was
Speaker 2: the grab the gun. It's another oswell. And then I
Speaker 2: was handcuffed to two coppers. They take me back to
Speaker 2: Frankstin police station. They were told not to talk to me.
Speaker 2: I kept talking to one of them because he was
Speaker 2: shaking so badly and he wouldn't talk to me, and
Speaker 2: I said, look, mate, I knowin not thatw to talk
Speaker 2: to me, but were just settled down. I'm supposed to
Speaker 2: be the one that's nervous, so it.
Speaker 1: Was nerves, not anger who was shaking you reckon.
Speaker 2: I don't know what and you know what I was thinking.
Speaker 2: And this is how stupid I am. There was a
Speaker 2: window behind me, and I'm sitting on a desk and
Speaker 2: as hard against the window. I was seen it myself.
Speaker 2: Like in the movies, you see all sorts of things.
Speaker 2: I thought, I wonder what happens if I spring up
Speaker 2: and I throw myself out through the window. Will the
Speaker 2: cuffs come off before I hit the ground?
Speaker 1: Well? Probably not? Probably not.
Speaker 2: Well that's the conclusion I reached before I sprang out
Speaker 2: through the window backwards. Yeah, and look, I make light
Speaker 2: of it. This is how I went through my jail.
Speaker 1: I do like the fact that, like, jail's a very
Speaker 1: personal experience, and everyone's experience in jail is a little
Speaker 1: bit different. But I haven't heard your winge about it.
Speaker 1: You've got a smile on your face, and there's horrific
Speaker 1: things that happen in jail, as you know better than
Speaker 1: I do.
Speaker 2: But I'll tell you something. Right here, I'll tell you
Speaker 2: how horrific it is. See that there? Can you see
Speaker 2: the cross?
Speaker 1: It's a cross, is it?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Ye?
Speaker 2: That has cut out of a window bar. And that's
Speaker 2: for the eight young fellas that hung themselves because they
Speaker 2: couldn't handle the brutality from prison guards, screws, or prisoners
Speaker 2: trying to rape them. I wear that in honor of
Speaker 2: those boys.
Speaker 1: So your brother did time in the same prison.
Speaker 2: Yes, and there was talk that was going to get
Speaker 2: him right. And when I walked in and went into
Speaker 2: the yard, and they were animal yards like cattle yards
Speaker 2: in those days, I looked around and went, there's seventy
Speaker 2: people that I don't know, even my brother. Would be
Speaker 2: better to have him on my side if something's going
Speaker 2: to go down. So he was the enemy. That was
Speaker 2: Watterson as bad as the unknown enemy. So can you
Speaker 2: now understand I'm not worried about what you have done.
Speaker 2: I'm worried about the next twelve years.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But what I underestimated or overestimated was during that twelve
Speaker 2: years he would never back me up.
Speaker 1: I'm confused. We should do a relationship podcast about you
Speaker 1: and your brother, because you've still you both built houses together,
Speaker 1: rob banks and tabs together. And then even after all
Speaker 1: this shit, after you got out of Joe, you went
Speaker 1: back in the building together.
Speaker 2: Because I look, should I be angry because his level
Speaker 2: of my expectations was wrong?
Speaker 1: No, And you answered that very well before. I do
Speaker 1: understand where you're coming from. I'm just a little bit confused.
Speaker 1: You're a very forgiving, forgiving man.
Speaker 2: Well I didn't say I forgive. I understand. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: but I would process it or maybe more disappointment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, fair cool. So your art you're saying you'd
Speaker 1: already broken away from the life of crime when you
Speaker 1: went in. So when you're doing your time, you're ten
Speaker 1: and a half years or twelve, subject to debate. Let's go,
Speaker 1: we'll add another year.
Speaker 2: Yep, we'll probably just served it.
Speaker 1: You might go back in after this. I don't think
Speaker 1: I can sense you. I'd try. You were always you
Speaker 1: weren't going to go back to the life of crime.
Speaker 1: It wasn't sort of thinking. So it wasn't a watershed
Speaker 1: moment in the jail that you thought, no, this life's
Speaker 1: not for me. You knew at the moment you walked in.
Speaker 2: I'll give you something. Yeah, this is a word of
Speaker 2: advice to everybody in the world, run by Dougie's rules.
Speaker 2: When you make a decision and you feel your weakening
Speaker 2: on that decision, stand up and look in the mirror
Speaker 2: and you ask yourself, yes, perhaps I can lie to
Speaker 2: other people, but what sort of man lies to himself?
Speaker 2: So if you make a decision, you know it's right.
Speaker 2: I'll be honest. Three or four years after I was out,
Speaker 2: was really hard pushing, and it's a tough life coming
Speaker 2: out of twelve years of jail and having to settle
Speaker 2: back down to earning a living. And I had a
Speaker 2: moment where one night I sat there and thought about
Speaker 2: the future and I was trying to make a decision
Speaker 2: do I continue on this righteous path? And I said,
Speaker 2: it's pretty tough, And then I went, try a bit harder, Dougie,
Speaker 2: try a bit harder, because I'm not going to lie
Speaker 2: to myself. And that's it. Every time it gets tough,
Speaker 2: go back to what you believe was the correct decision,
Speaker 2: and don't lie to yourself. And it was the right decision.
Speaker 2: I go and watch my grandchildren play football.
Speaker 1: Now, yeah, well, you know I'm looking at you, and
Speaker 1: you don't look like you're a man. That's been broken
Speaker 1: by life. There's a lot of positive, positive vibes.
Speaker 2: You know, they're saying the army makes and breaks.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I had so much adventure and fun in jail. I
Speaker 2: got shot at during an escape attempt. You know. The
Speaker 2: screw came down to my cell and haste vision that night,
Speaker 2: knocked on the trap and said, Dougie, am I okay?
Speaker 2: And at first I thought what's he talking about? Then
Speaker 2: I got it. Our family will police you. He might
Speaker 2: think I'll retaliate in twelve years time.
Speaker 1: Ah, I see where you're coming from.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we used to sit down years later and laugh
Speaker 2: about that day.
Speaker 1: So tell us about because you do meet up with
Speaker 1: a lot of the corrective, not a lot that you
Speaker 1: have socialized. I suppose having a beer with former creative
Speaker 1: services officers, because what are you doing at the now
Speaker 1: the new Pentridge jail or it's not a jar anymore,
Speaker 1: it's a you describe it the bar.
Speaker 2: Well, what I like to think is on educating people
Speaker 2: on the brutality what you're going to expect if you
Speaker 2: cross the blue line. I like to call it the
Speaker 2: blue line that you cross, or the cost of crime.
Speaker 2: There's a cost of crime to both sides. I guarantee
Speaker 2: you've had the cost of crime.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so you.
Speaker 2: Know what I'm talking about. Yeah, there's not really a
Speaker 2: good story anywhere on either side because prison officers became depressed,
Speaker 2: they became oken, marriages, all sorts of things because of
Speaker 2: the stress of the situation. I went out with a
Speaker 2: prison officer for three years, ten years after I got
Speaker 2: out of jail, and I learned about what it was
Speaker 2: like for those guys. She wasn't a guy, she was
Speaker 2: a woman.
Speaker 1: But I mean, yeah, you run with that.
Speaker 2: This is show you. I'll show your photos later. And
Speaker 2: I learn a lot about the jail from the other side,
Speaker 2: about all the heavies that were giving people up. I
Speaker 2: have a great understanding for the overall picture. Now as
Speaker 2: far as have you forgotten the question you asked me
Speaker 2: that I have, Oh what do I do with brew
Speaker 2: dog at the jar? It's a very good platform to
Speaker 2: raise what the price is of crime. If I want
Speaker 2: to talk about car racing, well let's do it while
Speaker 2: we watch Ellen Moffatt or Peter Brock or whatever. So
Speaker 2: let's take it to where we have some feeling for it,
Speaker 2: and you can come and visit me and you about
Speaker 2: what it's really like and what the cost will be.
Speaker 2: So there in that situation, I've bumped into a lot
Speaker 2: of ex prison officers and they all want to put
Speaker 2: their arm around me, and I just jested with them,
Speaker 2: and I give them the same lip. I had a
Speaker 2: governor that punished me very severely once and put me
Speaker 2: in Haite Division, and they were taking photos of us,
Speaker 2: and I had my arm around his shoulder like you
Speaker 2: normally do in the old photos with and I was
Speaker 2: whispering in his ear when everybody was too far away
Speaker 2: to here, I go, Remember that jelly night. You never
Speaker 2: got me? So I like to give people a slap,
Speaker 2: even forty years later. And he laughed. He said, yeah,
Speaker 2: I know, and we both had a laugh about it.
Speaker 1: But not everyone would be capable of that. I would
Speaker 1: imagine there's a lot of people that there's a resistance
Speaker 1: as a blue and the green, and people are.
Speaker 2: Sure, well, I like to say this, and you'll look
Speaker 2: because you're you're a understanding because you've been in the
Speaker 2: We're not much different really, because we both understand. Right now,
Speaker 2: I'd like to say to people, why would I be
Speaker 2: angry at a copper? I don't remember coppers coming to
Speaker 2: my house and dragging me into a bank and making
Speaker 2: me rob it. Now I can go the other way
Speaker 2: because my brother told me that I would not come
Speaker 2: in I would be heavily armed. The armed robbery squad
Speaker 2: held my family hostage in my house for four days.
Speaker 2: My three and five year old son and daughter had
Speaker 2: to sit in the bathroom all day, and I sometimes
Speaker 2: wonder if they were old enough to comprehend that if
Speaker 2: I walk through that door, I was going to be shot.
Speaker 2: So there's always two sides.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and I understand it would have been an
Speaker 1: intense situation when the cops are after you, exactly.
Speaker 2: But I don't give them much other avenue. So who's
Speaker 2: responsible for what my children went through?
Speaker 1: Well, you do impress me in the fact that you
Speaker 1: take ownership all the stuff when you look back at
Speaker 1: all the places that were robbed. I know and speaking
Speaker 1: to other people that bank robbers from the past didn't
Speaker 1: fully appreciate the psychological damage. You walk out. You haven't
Speaker 1: showed anyone. You think, oh, well, I'm not a bad person.
Speaker 2: Well do you reflate the damage is done?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you reflect on that.
Speaker 2: So the actual stress is perceived stress. But guess what
Speaker 2: that is real. That is far more damaging. I'll tell
Speaker 2: you a story from my side. A young fella that
Speaker 2: believed he was going to be beaten up the next
Speaker 2: day by a heavy and jail was so stressed he
Speaker 2: went to his cell with no mother to turn to,
Speaker 2: no phone call to talk to his brother or his
Speaker 2: sister or his father. The stress of being beaten up
Speaker 2: and only by hand, he hung himself that night. It's
Speaker 2: the perceived situation that stresses people. I jokingly say. Now,
Speaker 2: people say, could you rob a bank? I go, I could.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you how I do it. I will do
Speaker 2: the job. Let's say jobs should still be done because
Speaker 2: we've got to go back to that era. I will
Speaker 2: do the job. And as I walk through the door,
Speaker 2: as I'm leaving with the cash, I would throw my
Speaker 2: water pistol back over my head and go, I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: but it was just a water pistol. Don't stress. I'm
Speaker 2: gone because now I understand the stress. But I didn't
Speaker 2: perceive that stress because you know, I'm jovial about even
Speaker 2: if I was robbed. So therefore I believed all army soldiers, Navy,
Speaker 2: Air Force, police, bank tellers are trained. What I didn't
Speaker 2: realize is they all have different personalities and levels of stress.
Speaker 2: There's probably police officers that suffer worse than me. Oh
Speaker 2: absolutely more. I don't suffer because I accept all this
Speaker 2: and so you can't hurt me. Nobody in the world
Speaker 2: can hurt me. I carry the demons. I'm my worst critic.
Speaker 1: Well, you made that point earlier on that. You know,
Speaker 1: how's your life or judge of in the last ten
Speaker 1: seconds of your life and look back and can you
Speaker 1: face yourself in the mirror and done everything I can?
Speaker 1: What's a message you'd give for young and like, I
Speaker 1: don't think no matter what. Maybe there's a retro thing.
Speaker 1: The music comes back in fashion, clothing comes back in fashion.
Speaker 1: Maybe robberies and banks come back in fashion. I do
Speaker 1: so that'd be crazy, but I doubt it. But the
Speaker 1: currency of crime now there's different type of crime. And
Speaker 1: then back in the day and back twenty years ago.
Speaker 1: But what message would you give to know young blake
Speaker 1: or girls these days that think it's sclamorous a life
Speaker 1: of crime and where the consequences might be you end
Speaker 1: up in prison or sorry, okry the guilt.
Speaker 2: Over the last thirty five years, I've trained many, many
Speaker 2: young men as apprentices. All of them talk to me
Speaker 2: with total freedom because they know who I am. There
Speaker 2: was one apprentice that was selling party drugs pills, and
Speaker 2: he came to me one day. I know what they're doing,
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to condemn them. It's not my
Speaker 2: role to condemn people. I will try and point out
Speaker 2: what you'll get yourself into. I won't condemn you, and
Speaker 2: I won't tell you what you can do with your life.
Speaker 2: For all I know you're a bad person, but that's
Speaker 2: your business. Now. This guy he comes to me on
Speaker 2: I think it was a Monday, and he said, oh, look,
Speaker 2: on a Friday night he met with three guys with
Speaker 2: one thousand dollars for some pills for the week under sell.
Speaker 2: And he said, but what happened was they had machetes.
Speaker 2: And this is about ten years back, so machetes have
Speaker 2: been around for a while. They are very intimidating piece
Speaker 2: of equipment. Now, he said, what they did was they
Speaker 2: took my thousand dollars and think of many pills. And
Speaker 2: I said, well, you're about to learn the lesson of crime.
Speaker 2: What happens in crime. You can't control this direction. What
Speaker 2: will happen is you have to make a decision. Now,
Speaker 2: are you going to take the next step and rearrange
Speaker 2: with somebody else to meet these guys and you'll turn
Speaker 2: up with a bigger machete And then what they'll do
Speaker 2: is they will arrange get back at you with a
Speaker 2: bigger machete, which might be a gun. So so today
Speaker 2: I want you to think about if you're in or
Speaker 2: you're out. He came back to me at three point thirty.
Speaker 2: He said, Dug, I'm out. I said, I'm very happy
Speaker 2: for you. You made the right decision. Now, what happens
Speaker 2: is young people they start selling a bit of drugs
Speaker 2: so they don't have to pay for their drugs. What
Speaker 2: they don't realize is you slowly get in deeper and
Speaker 2: deeper and deeper, and I'm going to use the great
Speaker 2: Carl Williams. Williams tried to use the press to make
Speaker 2: some drugs and make some money.
Speaker 1: He's pill press.
Speaker 2: What happened was they found out and they shot him.
Speaker 2: Carle probably asked himself, when Carl was doing the drugs
Speaker 2: at that stage, he didn't perceive himself as being a killer.
Speaker 1: You agree, yeah, yeah, I think this is a reasonable
Speaker 1: way of describing it.
Speaker 2: Then they shot him, so he made a decision to retaliate.
Speaker 2: If Carl Williams walks away when he was shot, a
Speaker 2: lot of people don't die. But what happens in crime,
Speaker 2: it keeps escalating out of control. Like my brother when
Speaker 2: his ego escalated him out of control and he shoots
Speaker 2: Ray Kosh. It's not this crime or that crime or
Speaker 2: that crime. It happens. That's what happens in crime. You
Speaker 2: lose control and you maybe stupidly go to the next level.
Speaker 2: That's it. That's what you have to tell young people.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's I haven't heard it spoken that way,
Speaker 1: but that's a good breakdown of of course, in their
Speaker 1: detail of how it can escalate, and before you know it,
Speaker 1: you're in deeper than you care to be and the
Speaker 1: consequences are pretty heavy. Look, I will wrap up on
Speaker 1: that note. Just the stuff you do with your ard,
Speaker 1: if people want to reach out to you, and the
Speaker 1: type of things. What are you doing these days?
Speaker 2: Well, probably the only important thing some of the money
Speaker 2: that I raised from art. I don't know if you
Speaker 2: can see that. That's a bluestone key ring with Ned
Speaker 2: Kelly painted on it.
Speaker 1: Okay, yep, now.
Speaker 2: We sell these things. I still I'm going back working
Speaker 2: with the Salvos and we'll be selling them for about
Speaker 2: fifteen dollars and five dollars we'll go to the guys
Speaker 2: who make them, five dollars will go to the guys
Speaker 2: who sell them, and five dollars will go to the Salvos.
Speaker 2: And I've got a deal with one of the chaplains
Speaker 2: that they'll tell me things that people getting out of
Speaker 2: young people getting out of jail require to set their
Speaker 2: lives up. So what I want to do is spend
Speaker 2: some time raising money and going back to mentoring, because
Speaker 2: I've done mentoring with prisons before and it's like, we
Speaker 2: can all be a show pony, or we can all
Speaker 2: do things for the things that you do that are
Speaker 2: positive will give your life some value. I seek value
Speaker 2: in my life.
Speaker 1: I can understand that you look like you're enjoying your life.
Speaker 1: Where can people reach out to you if they want
Speaker 1: to contact with you.
Speaker 2: Well, if they go to brew Dog Pub at Pentries
Speaker 2: Jail and they ask for Doug, they'll be told, no,
Speaker 2: he's not here today, or he is here today. But
Speaker 2: I'm retired. So in theory, I'm supposed to be the
Speaker 2: jail artist and his story and every day after three o'clock, okay,
Speaker 2: but sometimes I get lazy.
Speaker 1: Well, we all need a day off every now and then, Doug,
Speaker 1: I've enjoyed the enjoyed the chat. Thanks for making the
Speaker 1: effort and giving this an insight into a world that
Speaker 1: most of us don't get to sea or fully understand.
Speaker 1: So that's what I like to do on the podcast.
Speaker 1: That's what we've been trying to do for years. Let
Speaker 1: people fully understand what goes on in the world of crime,
Speaker 1: because there's this misconception. But people are now, okay, this
Speaker 1: is a real live robber and we've just had a
Speaker 1: sit down chat and talking to an next cop who
Speaker 1: would have thought so. I appreciate you, honestly, people get
Speaker 1: to understand the world.
Speaker 2: You don't seem a bad blake for a copper.
Speaker 1: You're all right for an arm Robert too.
Speaker 2: That's been quoted in books.
Speaker 1: Actually fair core. All right, Well, thank you very much,
Speaker 1: and yeah, we'll stay in touch.
Speaker 2: And one last thing, and you've got to think about this.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: I will never know if I've ever helped anybody, but
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. I try.
Speaker 1: I like your attitude on things. Do I can see
Speaker 1: why you made it through some hard times and come
Speaker 1: out the other end good stuff. Take care in the back.
Speaker 2: Never never, anti bas