WEBVTT - The After Dark Bandits: Doug Morgan Pt.2

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>In Part two of my chat with former bank Robert

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<v Speaker 1>Doug Morgan, we delve further into his life as a

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<v Speaker 1>notorist armed robber, how he and his brother Pete were

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<v Speaker 1>arrested after a police officer was shot during an armed robbery.

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<v Speaker 1>We also discuss how he survived Penridge jail, how he

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<v Speaker 1>turned his life around, and the warning he has for

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<v Speaker 1>others that might consider following the path he took. I

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<v Speaker 1>also asked Doug how he now feels about all the

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<v Speaker 1>people he terrorized during his career as a bank robber.

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<v Speaker 1>It was an interesting chat, that's for sure. Okay, Doug Morgan,

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.

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<v Speaker 2>Hang on, What am I doing on this one? This

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<v Speaker 2>is I'm not a killer?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but it's a fine life, fine line when you

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<v Speaker 1>walking to a bank or a tab with a gun.

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<v Speaker 2>I totally agree, and when I look back the mistake

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<v Speaker 2>I made I was a bank teller. I believe that

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<v Speaker 2>anybody behind the counter and a TV or a bank

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<v Speaker 2>was trained the same as I was. Because I grew

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<v Speaker 2>up in a crime family, my capacity to handle things

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<v Speaker 2>is probably different to people who have been trained but

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<v Speaker 2>don't have the capacity to handle the actual live situation.

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<v Speaker 2>So I actually believe that they would be about as

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<v Speaker 2>stressed as I would be if I was the bank teller.

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<v Speaker 2>And a funny little story is I wasn't allowed to

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<v Speaker 2>have a gun because I was seventeen when I was

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<v Speaker 2>a bank teller. I'd been trained, but I wasn't actually

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<v Speaker 2>physically allowed to have a gun. So I went down

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<v Speaker 2>the street to let's say, an army disposal store, and

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<v Speaker 2>I bought the biggest and longest and most offensive looking

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<v Speaker 2>letter opener I could have, and used to put it

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<v Speaker 2>on my desk, on my teller's unit. And if you

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<v Speaker 2>try to rob me, I'm going to stab you with

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<v Speaker 2>my letter opener.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, see, that's the thing when you go in there,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's why I talk about the risk or before

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<v Speaker 1>you go in, you do not know how people are

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<v Speaker 1>going to react when confronted by that situation.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, do you want to know how I felt about

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<v Speaker 2>all that being a bank teller? How I used to think,

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<v Speaker 2>hope they don't shoot me, because I'll probably be on

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<v Speaker 2>their side. And now I'll tell a joke that if

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<v Speaker 2>you had to try to rob me in those days,

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<v Speaker 2>I would have went one for you, one for me,

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<v Speaker 2>one for you, one for me, and we'll all go

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<v Speaker 2>home happy tonight.

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<v Speaker 1>What hope did that bank have had? Did you get

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<v Speaker 1>sacked or did you quit as a talent?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I had to leave with my father.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh that's right. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Now you said you want a real scoop, You want

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<v Speaker 2>a real scoop.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, give us a scoop. We're always out for a scoop, right.

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<v Speaker 2>I was a brilliant bank teller, and in those days

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<v Speaker 2>it wasn't computerized, and it was up to me every

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<v Speaker 2>night to balance my books. And because I was pretty

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<v Speaker 2>good at it, the number one teller never used to

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<v Speaker 2>check my money, and I started to work this out

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<v Speaker 2>that I was pretty well trusted. We were on the

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<v Speaker 2>first floor of a building right in the middle of

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<v Speaker 2>the city in Melbourne. In the basement was a ta

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<v Speaker 2>b wow. What one of myself and one of my

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<v Speaker 2>knock about mates that was working at the bank who

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<v Speaker 2>became buddies because we were two of the let's say,

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<v Speaker 2>working class boys, you know me and I time the

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<v Speaker 2>other boys would say to me, Doggie, you want to

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<v Speaker 2>go down and look at tis in the shops. I go,

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<v Speaker 2>what the hell are you talking about? Look at tis?

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<v Speaker 2>I've got one tie, that's it. I got one suit,

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<v Speaker 2>that's it. Leave me alone. Anyway, So what we would

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<v Speaker 2>do at lunchtime is we would sort out some bets.

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<v Speaker 2>I would withdraw money from my unit and would make

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<v Speaker 2>a plunge. Now, in the old days, tabs pay you

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<v Speaker 2>out at five point thirty after the day's takings, so

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<v Speaker 2>I couldn't get the money back win or lose in

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<v Speaker 2>time to balance my books. So I would have to

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<v Speaker 2>falsify nearly every night my bank Telly's unit or would

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<v Speaker 2>call it, you know, was a unit, but that would

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<v Speaker 2>money would go back in the safe every night. So

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<v Speaker 2>I would falsify in my books most nights to cover

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<v Speaker 2>my bedding and the next day I'd get the money

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<v Speaker 2>the next lunchtime, so I'd work a day behind. So

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<v Speaker 2>I had the A and Z basically bank rolling Doug

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<v Speaker 2>Morgan Punter anything.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I can't see how that could have gone wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>If you're lost, lucky you had something to get back.

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<v Speaker 2>But it did lose once and I had to sign

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<v Speaker 2>because this can be done just in paperwork. Yeah, so

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<v Speaker 2>I made a withdrawal the next day once out of

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<v Speaker 2>my savings account to balance the books because I only

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<v Speaker 2>remember losing once. Yeah, I actually did lose eighty dollars

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<v Speaker 2>out of my own account. You're juggling, but it felt

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<v Speaker 2>better when it was theirs.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, doesn't hurt as much when you lose someone else's money,

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<v Speaker 1>I suppose. Okay, I want to clarify one thing before

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<v Speaker 1>we go into this next part. Your brother's still around, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>and you two are talking. I don't want to cause

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<v Speaker 1>a rift in the family.

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<v Speaker 2>He came down to see me actually on the weekend

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<v Speaker 2>at rudolg Bar and Pendridge.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, it's not going good. Well, talk us through the

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<v Speaker 1>police officer that was shot and Ray Koss. What's a

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<v Speaker 1>factual account of it? When your brother shot Ray Koch?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I wasn't there. There was never any planning for

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<v Speaker 2>shooting people that was off limits. If you got to

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<v Speaker 2>that point, you'd failed. You'd failed our rules of engagement.

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<v Speaker 2>We had rules of engagement that if the job was

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<v Speaker 2>too hot, you walk away. His ego didn't allow that anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>So he drags the copper out of the car. He says,

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<v Speaker 2>you're a copper. He takes his car keys off and

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<v Speaker 2>froze into the paddock next next to and shoves the

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<v Speaker 2>gun into his stomach. This guy who was driving home,

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<v Speaker 2>innocent copper. And then my brother's got a way of

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<v Speaker 2>belittling people when he's got a gun in his hand.

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<v Speaker 2>The next time he goes there, Ray Kosh got close

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<v Speaker 2>to him and the gun was again in the side

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<v Speaker 2>of a person's body, and this time the gun goes off.

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<v Speaker 2>The next day he allows another copper to get close

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<v Speaker 2>to him. Gun again goes into the stomach of a

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<v Speaker 2>copper but this time the safety was on and he's

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<v Speaker 2>left handed, so he couldn't get the safety off. According

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<v Speaker 2>to the copper, this was rick hasty. Yeah, forget about

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<v Speaker 2>everything else. Just as a common sense person, if you

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<v Speaker 2>keep sticking guns against people's bodies, when does it go off?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, there's consequences and the risk. And you've said

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<v Speaker 1>you always looked at the bank if it's too hot,

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<v Speaker 1>and look at risks and try to mitigate mitigate the risk.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's say I've got you. You're a copper. Yeah, Let's

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<v Speaker 2>say I've got you. You've got no gun, Yeah, and

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<v Speaker 2>I've got a gun. I'd be foolish to let you

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<v Speaker 2>come within arms reach of me, wouldn't I.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, you'd be in trouble if you did.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because you're going to have a go.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Just what my brother did. He used to walk up

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<v Speaker 2>and stick the gun in the side of which means

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<v Speaker 2>he went to three coppers and allowed all of them

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<v Speaker 2>to be within struggling range. Now, now I have a flip. Look,

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<v Speaker 2>I make jest of a lot of things, and sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>I even make jest of this. Guns are not for

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<v Speaker 2>wrestling over.

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<v Speaker 1>No, that's very true, very true.

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<v Speaker 2>I tell you something I'm going to tell you something

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<v Speaker 2>that I've never said to anybody. I asked my brother

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<v Speaker 2>why he had got out of the search area after

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<v Speaker 2>shooting Raykosh and robbing the bank, and look, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know if it was accidental, you don't know. We'll never know.

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't there. He didn't follow our procedures and continued

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<v Speaker 2>and that was the result of him not following our

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<v Speaker 2>procedures of engagement with police. Our rules of engagement should

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<v Speaker 2>not have allowed him to even be there when the

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<v Speaker 2>police was so hot. But he broke those rules because

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<v Speaker 2>his ego and he being the commander in chief or

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<v Speaker 2>general as he saw himself, he kept changing the rules.

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<v Speaker 1>Now that the rule's been the pac that you guys

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<v Speaker 1>had made, Yeah, we had rule, We discussed.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything was discussed and planned down to the we had

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<v Speaker 2>in the scrub. We had flash torches, not to be

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<v Speaker 2>used because a helicopter would see them, but for a

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<v Speaker 2>pickup point if it was at nighttime. We have codes,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'll flash you the code if I'm picking you up,

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<v Speaker 2>and you will flash me back a code, even to

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<v Speaker 2>the extent if you don't flash me back the code

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<v Speaker 2>and you're in a car, I won't come out because

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<v Speaker 2>the coppers might have you in your car. So unless

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<v Speaker 2>you give me the real code, I'm not even coming out,

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<v Speaker 2>even if I know it's you. So we had over

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<v Speaker 2>a thing really well regimented for the safety of everybody.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you think we planned robberies to get caught? We

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<v Speaker 2>planned robberies to go home. Now the next day he

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<v Speaker 2>breached your perimeter because O're planning even after shooting a

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<v Speaker 2>copper and you flooded the area or you or your

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<v Speaker 2>let's say you, well, keep it you, you and me mate,

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<v Speaker 2>it's you and me today. All right.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm happy you're getting me excited. I'd like to be

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<v Speaker 1>going after you guys. Yeah, okay, we've set up the well.

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<v Speaker 2>I think we can do a movie if I saw you.

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<v Speaker 2>If I draw first, don't draw yours, because I'll let

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<v Speaker 2>you go home, but you let me walk as well.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll be doing good that day. But the trouble is

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to shoot me. Do you know what I

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<v Speaker 2>planned once to make I was going to have on

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<v Speaker 2>the back of my bike a rack that was bulletproof

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<v Speaker 2>so you couldn't shoot me as I rode away.

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<v Speaker 1>I think ned Kelly came up with that a few

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<v Speaker 1>years ago or before.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm not a Ned Kelly fan. I paint Ned Kelly,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm not a fan because he broke my rules too.

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<v Speaker 2>He shot people.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm glad you understand that, because I saw the result,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it was in the stick ups or in homicide

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<v Speaker 1>where people get shot, that's devastating.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. Now, I said to my brother, you got out

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<v Speaker 2>of the search area, you got to the pickup point

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<v Speaker 2>if it's too hot and I can't get in because

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<v Speaker 2>it's too many cops. Because there was a perimeter, and

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<v Speaker 2>he broke the perimeter, but he didn't bring he didn't

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<v Speaker 2>break the outside perimeter, so they had a first perimeter.

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<v Speaker 2>It was about ten kilometers, which was normal than those

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<v Speaker 2>days either or the other perimeter, yep outer perimeter was

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<v Speaker 2>a lot wider. And I couldn't get back in to

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<v Speaker 2>get him out of the pickup point. And our pickup

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<v Speaker 2>point was daylight the next day, because we're working in

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<v Speaker 2>the country. If you're hot, it's the next day. If

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<v Speaker 2>I can't get in because it's too hot. And I

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<v Speaker 2>actually went through a roadblock, and I was quick enough

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<v Speaker 2>to work out how to get back outside the roadblock

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<v Speaker 2>that i'd just driven through. That's the time for another story.

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<v Speaker 2>But if I don't pick him up at the pickup

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<v Speaker 2>point at daylight, he has to wait twenty four hours

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<v Speaker 2>because I'll come, I'll becoming I need to get you

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<v Speaker 2>out of there because.

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<v Speaker 1>We are we talking generally here?

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<v Speaker 2>Or is this no? This was on the last job.

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<v Speaker 2>This was the last job, but the same rules followed.

0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:56.320
<v Speaker 2>The pickup point was at a certain time. If the

0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.920
<v Speaker 2>pickup point was not accessible, wait twenty four hours and

0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:01.920
<v Speaker 2>go a bit like in the army where they have

0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.160
<v Speaker 2>to be at the helicopter pickup point, you have times

0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.040
<v Speaker 2>to be picked up. If it doesn't happen, it's twenty

0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.040
<v Speaker 2>four hours, pick up twenty four hours. Because if I'm

0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:13.400
<v Speaker 2>not there, there's a reason why I'm not picking you up,

0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:16.679
<v Speaker 2>because it's for your safety, my safety, and everybody's safety.

0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.720
<v Speaker 2>I'm not coming in anyway. So I said to him

0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:22.520
<v Speaker 2>a few years ago, I said, so why didn't you

0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.480
<v Speaker 2>stay at the pickup point? Because they would have never

0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.680
<v Speaker 2>found you, and the after dark band Heed could have

0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:32.520
<v Speaker 2>assessed what you've done and decided what the future was.

0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.240
<v Speaker 2>I would have been stressing to him that it was

0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:40.920
<v Speaker 2>over and we walk away and it's all over, and

0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:42.800
<v Speaker 2>the war is over with the coppers and the chess

0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.240
<v Speaker 2>games and all that. Thank you lucky stars that we

0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:50.640
<v Speaker 2>can still walk away. But hopefully everything will be okay. Now,

0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:52.840
<v Speaker 2>do you know what he said to me, I played

0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.920
<v Speaker 2>by the rules. If I shoot one of you guys,

0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.720
<v Speaker 2>what does that mean I have given you right the

0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:00.920
<v Speaker 2>shoe me on site.

0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, you're going to have a ton of bricks coming

0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:04.600
<v Speaker 1>down on you, that's for sure.

0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:06.240
<v Speaker 2>Do you know what I said to him? He said, Oh,

0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:10.520
<v Speaker 2>they would have They would have shot me. Now I

0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:14.320
<v Speaker 2>think that is so too faced. I said to him immediately,

0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.160
<v Speaker 2>but you shot one of them, And now you tell

0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.160
<v Speaker 2>me you're going to run because you're worried they're going

0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:23.920
<v Speaker 2>to shoot you. If I shot one of you guys,

0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.800
<v Speaker 2>I would take my punishment, whatever that may be.

0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:30.319
<v Speaker 1>The old head each lived by the sword, died by

0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:33.800
<v Speaker 1>the sword. If you want to start engaging in gun battles, well, I'm.

0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.160
<v Speaker 2>Certainly exactly, but I would have. If I had shot

0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:37.760
<v Speaker 2>one of you guys. It would have been by accident,

0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:40.720
<v Speaker 2>maybe a warning shot that went wrong or something like that.

0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.040
<v Speaker 2>But I don't think that would have happened. And I've

0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.160
<v Speaker 2>never been really tested. I like to think that I

0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:52.160
<v Speaker 2>would have been good enough to avoid a full long confrontation.

0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:55.920
<v Speaker 2>I like to believe, And that's maybe one thing I

0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:57.840
<v Speaker 2>really don't want to even answer or even think about,

0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:00.319
<v Speaker 2>because it's horrific if I had to answer that.

0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:03.880
<v Speaker 1>It's a hard question to answer, isn't it. What would

0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.360
<v Speaker 1>you do if a cop if I had fronted you

0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.360
<v Speaker 1>with a gun and that was freedom or put the

0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:13.560
<v Speaker 1>bullet in me? What you must have process that in

0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:15.760
<v Speaker 1>your mind at some stage when you're going.

0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:19.920
<v Speaker 2>I think I really had belief in my strategies because

0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.880
<v Speaker 2>the strategy were going pretty good up to twenty three

0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:27.160
<v Speaker 2>jobs without a skeeric of evidence. So probably the father went.

0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:29.920
<v Speaker 2>You started to believe your strategies were working and that

0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.640
<v Speaker 2>you were a good tactician, and you were really playing

0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:35.560
<v Speaker 2>a game of chess with the coppers and they kept losing.

0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:39.040
<v Speaker 1>You said with your brother, like an ego kicked in.

0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.480
<v Speaker 1>That was it a false ego or belief that you

0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.280
<v Speaker 1>both might have had that, Okay, we can get away

0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:47.760
<v Speaker 1>of this. We're out smartening them. Look they're running around

0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:48.640
<v Speaker 1>like headless choks.

0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.080
<v Speaker 2>No, because what I knew, because he didn't see this,

0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.880
<v Speaker 2>what I knew every time we started stealing a motorbike,

0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.920
<v Speaker 2>we were giving you one up. You would go motor

0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.200
<v Speaker 2>like from a motorbike shop and they would usually be

0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.160
<v Speaker 2>country motorbike shops. So what would that mean if if

0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:12.680
<v Speaker 2>you're you're you would dealt with serial crimes in your life.

0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we might meet the sharpest pencil in the packers

0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:18.640
<v Speaker 1>as cops. But if in a lead up to a

0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:21.880
<v Speaker 1>robbery that the motor bike gets stolen in the country town,

0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:25.040
<v Speaker 1>then the bank gets robbed, Yeah, do it twice? We

0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.880
<v Speaker 1>might start to see something three times we'll be on.

0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:31.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, I knew what he was doing before I

0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:35.640
<v Speaker 2>decided not to do anymore. I'll be honest. I tried

0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.360
<v Speaker 2>to talk him into changing our moo, not striking as

0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:43.240
<v Speaker 2>often and not striking as the after dark banded. Because

0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.720
<v Speaker 2>what people don't realize, and it's still with me today

0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:51.720
<v Speaker 2>that I stopped. Do you think because I stopped, I

0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:52.440
<v Speaker 2>was free?

0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:55.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? When you when you say stop, But like this

0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:58.000
<v Speaker 1>last job where the shooting, because he got arrested after that,

0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:00.000
<v Speaker 1>what were you doing looking to pick him up? You see,

0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:00.800
<v Speaker 1>you're out of it?

0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.400
<v Speaker 2>What happened? I said, I would never carry a gun again.

0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:05.520
<v Speaker 2>I would never and I wasn't going to work with

0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:08.400
<v Speaker 2>him again. But a friend of mine asked me if

0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:12.080
<v Speaker 2>they could borrow ten thousand to put together an inter

0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:16.560
<v Speaker 2>state truck business, and I went. Then I knew he

0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:19.320
<v Speaker 2>was about to pull a job, and he'd been averaging

0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:23.440
<v Speaker 2>about fifteen thousand, and I said to him, I'll give

0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:27.960
<v Speaker 2>you assistance, but I'm not in ever again. I need

0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:32.560
<v Speaker 2>ten thousand for a friend. Now, that was also false

0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:35.000
<v Speaker 2>loyalty to my brother right through the whole thing. And

0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:36.520
<v Speaker 2>then again when I look at it, that was false

0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:40.200
<v Speaker 2>loyalty to my friend because I was willing to go

0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:44.200
<v Speaker 2>back against my own decision to get ten thousand for

0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:46.600
<v Speaker 2>not even for me, it was for somebody else.

0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:50.960
<v Speaker 1>So I've heard of too many old school guys like

0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:55.240
<v Speaker 1>yourself that have come unstuck because of that misguided loyalty

0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.120
<v Speaker 1>and getting dragged back into things because look, you, I

0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:01.680
<v Speaker 1>was a favor. Just do this one thing, and time

0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:05.399
<v Speaker 1>and time again, people sitting here having a chat tell

0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:06.040
<v Speaker 1>that story.

0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:10.280
<v Speaker 2>You want to know the real story? Yeah, and my

0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:13.560
<v Speaker 2>brother knows it, so I can say this. I couldn't

0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:15.840
<v Speaker 2>actually look him in the eye at one stage and

0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:18.679
<v Speaker 2>say he worked on me and worked on me and

0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.560
<v Speaker 2>worked on me when I told him I'm out, So

0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:26.400
<v Speaker 2>I thought just to end this continual harassment of you've

0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:29.480
<v Speaker 2>got to do a job, you can't get out. I

0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:32.760
<v Speaker 2>never planned the job. He told me a job, and

0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.840
<v Speaker 2>a week before he did the last job, I agreed

0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:41.080
<v Speaker 2>to go to do his job. Nobody knows this, but

0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.159
<v Speaker 2>it's important because it's got a lot to do with

0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:45.520
<v Speaker 2>peer group pressure, which is evil.

0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.160
<v Speaker 1>For it's a lesson that pass on to others too.

0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. So I we take a motorbike to the area,

0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:55.000
<v Speaker 2>same as we normally did, in the back of a

0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:57.600
<v Speaker 2>horse float. So you can drive all around Australia with

0:17:57.600 --> 0:17:59.679
<v Speaker 2>a horse float and you've got horses, you haven't got motorbikes.

0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Nobody's going to suspect a horse robbing a bank. They're

0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.680
<v Speaker 2>expecting if you have a motorbike on an open trailer

0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:09.960
<v Speaker 2>that I saw that guy this morning driving a Falcon.

0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.840
<v Speaker 1>GT, I say the logic of your thinking.

0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, anyway, So he takes me the area of a job.

0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:19.600
<v Speaker 2>The job was up at Hayfield. And this is the

0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.800
<v Speaker 2>honest gospel and something I've never spoken about before, but

0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:26.040
<v Speaker 2>I think these things are important. I knew I wasn't

0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:31.520
<v Speaker 2>going to pull the job. I sabotaged the bike, didn't

0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.800
<v Speaker 2>do the job right. He knows that the bank didn't

0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:38.119
<v Speaker 2>go down. Now, in a strange way, I carry a

0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:41.199
<v Speaker 2>bit of guilt. If I carry that job out and

0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:44.000
<v Speaker 2>I do it safely, maybe Cosh doesn't get shot.

0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:46.520
<v Speaker 1>I see the connection.

0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I carry that and when the job doesn't

0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.119
<v Speaker 2>go down, he comes back to get me and I go,

0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:54.680
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't get the bike going. There's something wrong with it.

0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:57.320
<v Speaker 2>I knew exactly what was wrong with it. I did it.

0:18:57.760 --> 0:18:59.520
<v Speaker 2>So in a strange way, I have a little bit

0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:00.320
<v Speaker 2>of guilt.

0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:03.040
<v Speaker 1>And say, the job where Kosh got.

0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:05.400
<v Speaker 2>That would have gone down to.

0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:08.240
<v Speaker 1>That because he had to do a job when you

0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:11.119
<v Speaker 1>guys were doing this. And then there's the after Dark Bandits.

0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:15.600
<v Speaker 1>You became the bandit even though there was two of you.

0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:19.320
<v Speaker 1>You became the most wanted person in Australia. How did

0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:23.080
<v Speaker 1>that feel? No, they're not most wanted because everyone liked you.

0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.719
<v Speaker 1>Most wanted by the cops because you kept robbing places.

0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:30.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, in a strange way, I suppose I wear it

0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.680
<v Speaker 2>as a badge. Yeah, but I see this. I see

0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.720
<v Speaker 2>the funny side to it that compared to a lot

0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:41.800
<v Speaker 2>of other criminals, I'm a nervous, very non dangerous. So

0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.080
<v Speaker 2>it just shows how exaggerated the tag can be.

0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:47.560
<v Speaker 1>And I would imagine that it would have hit the

0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:49.800
<v Speaker 1>media and you would have been following the media that

0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:51.920
<v Speaker 1>the Australia's most wanted bandit.

0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:54.840
<v Speaker 2>I was looking at my face on the TV, going, God,

0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:56.879
<v Speaker 2>you're an ugly basard. You better grow a beard.

0:19:57.480 --> 0:19:59.000
<v Speaker 1>I was going to ask you this question, but I

0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:00.880
<v Speaker 1>don't want to get anyone in the trouble. But there's

0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:05.879
<v Speaker 1>probably statute of limitations. Did anyone else know outside you

0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:06.480
<v Speaker 1>and your brother?

0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.679
<v Speaker 2>No, and my wife didn't know. And I'll tell you

0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:12.920
<v Speaker 2>the truth. I discussed this. We have even friends. How

0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:16.840
<v Speaker 2>stupid would I be to tell a wife that I'm

0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:20.960
<v Speaker 2>a bank robber. There's two bad angles. One have you

0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:22.800
<v Speaker 2>have you got children that play sport and you're worry

0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:24.440
<v Speaker 2>about them hurting themselves playing sport.

0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:25.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:27.359
<v Speaker 2>Can you imagine a wife sitting at home while you're

0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:31.680
<v Speaker 2>doing a bank Yeah, that's that'd be pretty stressful. That's

0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:34.200
<v Speaker 2>one reason why you don't tell them. The other reason

0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:38.200
<v Speaker 2>is I'm a professional trained by my father and I'm

0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:41.399
<v Speaker 2>more akrim than most crims will ever be. But I

0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:44.880
<v Speaker 2>choose not to rob banks now, so you don't include

0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:49.400
<v Speaker 2>other people because this is the lesson of life for marriages,

0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:53.520
<v Speaker 2>break in divorce. Would you like your ex wife knowing

0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:56.480
<v Speaker 2>you were a bank robber and asking for more alimony?

0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.239
<v Speaker 1>No? And look, I've got to be on this here.

0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:04.639
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to talk about my ex wife. But

0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:09.680
<v Speaker 1>from a CoP's point of view, they were ex partners.

0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:12.360
<v Speaker 1>Let's put it just in that term. Ex partners are

0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.520
<v Speaker 1>a great source of information because vengeance can be a

0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.520
<v Speaker 1>terrible thing. And ah, we haven't got a breakthrough, but

0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:21.480
<v Speaker 1>this relationship's broken up, and let's go have a chat

0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:21.879
<v Speaker 1>with one.

0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:23.280
<v Speaker 2>There's an angle. There's an angle.

0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:26.480
<v Speaker 1>Okay, your brothers, he's got to rest it in the

0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:31.320
<v Speaker 1>lame way by Rick Hasey the cop there, and part

0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:35.200
<v Speaker 1>of your agreement between that he doesn't talk and you've

0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:38.000
<v Speaker 1>got at least twelve hours to said.

0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:40.479
<v Speaker 2>Hang on, no, there's no agreement. We had a very

0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:43.400
<v Speaker 2>heated discussion on Sunday about this. I'm going to put

0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:46.040
<v Speaker 2>this to you. Yeah, Now, all the bank robbers and

0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:48.760
<v Speaker 2>all the crooks you've ever met, Yeah, could you imagine

0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:52.520
<v Speaker 2>two of them sitting down and reaching agreement where you're

0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:54.600
<v Speaker 2>going to lag each other after twelve hours.

0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:58.359
<v Speaker 1>No, I was surprised that if I've missed it interpreted

0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:00.480
<v Speaker 1>that I thought not even going to say a word

0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:03.359
<v Speaker 1>for twelve hours, because I've had crooks before me that

0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:06.160
<v Speaker 1>have just sat there and just not said a word.

0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:06.960
<v Speaker 1>Real hard ass.

0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:11.160
<v Speaker 2>On Sunday, he tried to convince me that I agreed

0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:13.000
<v Speaker 2>to that.

0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:14.720
<v Speaker 1>That you give him up after twelve hours, or that

0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:17.600
<v Speaker 1>he gives you up after twelve Yeah.

0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:19.560
<v Speaker 2>So what sort of fool would I be to say

0:22:19.600 --> 0:22:22.000
<v Speaker 2>to somebody, Yeah, I'm cool with you giving me up

0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:24.760
<v Speaker 2>after twelve hours? What the stuff am I going? I've

0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:26.679
<v Speaker 2>cleaned that up, haven't I? What the stuff am I

0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:29.240
<v Speaker 2>going to do with twelve hours? I haven't got a passport.

0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:32.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm not part of your crew, and I'm not your brothers.

0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.000
<v Speaker 1>But I would have expected that if you get caught,

0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:37.600
<v Speaker 1>I'm not saying a word about you, and if vice

0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:39.440
<v Speaker 1>versa like, keep your mouth shut.

0:22:39.280 --> 0:22:41.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'll tell you the real story how the whole

0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:43.760
<v Speaker 2>thing was set up. There's two parts to crime, and

0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:46.960
<v Speaker 2>you know this, all right, we do the bank. What's

0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:50.840
<v Speaker 2>the second part of crime? Having alibis and getting away

0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:53.440
<v Speaker 2>with it. Even if you get caught, you've got to

0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:57.399
<v Speaker 2>beat the blue in court. Otherwise, why did you do it? Now?

0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:01.879
<v Speaker 2>The day he shot the copper, I drove his car

0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:04.880
<v Speaker 2>to his horse trainer's place. And back in those days

0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:07.879
<v Speaker 2>we're twins, we looked the same set up. Ali, I

0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.879
<v Speaker 2>said his alibi up from the front gate. Because I

0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:14.399
<v Speaker 2>tooted the horn, he came out of his stable. I

0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:17.600
<v Speaker 2>waved to him. Even our voices are similar, and I've

0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:21.040
<v Speaker 2>yelled out, I'll be back later. So I've just given

0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:25.359
<v Speaker 2>him an alibi an hour before the bank, and the

0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:28.639
<v Speaker 2>bank goes down two and a half hours away. Now

0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:32.960
<v Speaker 2>I went home and my wife usually in the afternoon,

0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:35.359
<v Speaker 2>after picking up the children, and the women across the

0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:37.880
<v Speaker 2>road picking up the children, they would sit in her

0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:41.159
<v Speaker 2>lounge room and have a coffee. So I will the

0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:44.480
<v Speaker 2>bank was going down, I'm sitting across the road in

0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:49.119
<v Speaker 2>somebody else's house. Now it's like the old ad do

0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:53.040
<v Speaker 2>you want snake steak knives? As well? The house was

0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:54.520
<v Speaker 2>the home of a copper.

0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:58.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you're setting up the alibi.

0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:02.520
<v Speaker 2>That's how we worked. Yeah, And the whole point was,

0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:04.800
<v Speaker 2>and I'm going to give it to you. I don't

0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:07.399
<v Speaker 2>know if this would work or not. The original plan,

0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:10.240
<v Speaker 2>which I was willing to stick to but he didn't,

0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:14.960
<v Speaker 2>was that if he gets arrested and they don't shoot

0:24:15.040 --> 0:24:18.040
<v Speaker 2>him and he has not id the other brother has

0:24:18.040 --> 0:24:20.040
<v Speaker 2>probably got a bit of time to think what's going

0:24:20.119 --> 0:24:22.920
<v Speaker 2>to go down, right, because he's dead. It could have

0:24:22.960 --> 0:24:24.680
<v Speaker 2>been me that was dead, by the way, not just him.

0:24:25.080 --> 0:24:27.000
<v Speaker 2>She's my hand is starting to shake a little bit

0:24:27.000 --> 0:24:31.840
<v Speaker 2>talking about this. Then let's say they arrest him or

0:24:31.840 --> 0:24:35.280
<v Speaker 2>they arrest me. There'd be a court appearance, maybe two

0:24:35.359 --> 0:24:37.600
<v Speaker 2>days later or whatever, a bit of slap around, a

0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:39.720
<v Speaker 2>bit of questioning with the old phone book. If you

0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:43.399
<v Speaker 2>don't talk where the phone book? Right, go to court,

0:24:43.880 --> 0:24:47.120
<v Speaker 2>because the other twin will walk into court and say

0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:50.680
<v Speaker 2>not a word and just sit there. Now, you if

0:24:50.680 --> 0:24:52.760
<v Speaker 2>you were the resting officer and you saw a twin

0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:56.960
<v Speaker 2>brother sitting in the audience and you're trying to pint

0:24:57.000 --> 0:24:59.240
<v Speaker 2>it on this bloke, you have to pint it on

0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:02.800
<v Speaker 2>the correct brother in the right bank. Not as a necessory,

0:25:03.040 --> 0:25:05.160
<v Speaker 2>but you have to put the right brother in the bank.

0:25:05.400 --> 0:25:10.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you asked me the question. I can see the complications.

0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:13.080
<v Speaker 1>I saw it in myin career. I won't mention the

0:25:13.119 --> 0:25:16.720
<v Speaker 1>actual murder, but the murder where some twins were good

0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:19.159
<v Speaker 1>persons of interest for it. Then they cause a lot

0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:22.800
<v Speaker 1>of problems by the fact that they were identical identical twins.

0:25:22.920 --> 0:25:25.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, do you know what happened once he got arrested.

0:25:25.600 --> 0:25:30.760
<v Speaker 2>Let's just say he was helping it in their investigation.

0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:31.240
<v Speaker 1>Co operating.

0:25:31.320 --> 0:25:36.199
<v Speaker 2>I think, yeah. But anyway, so we're going to now

0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:39.240
<v Speaker 2>try and beat it in court because you have to pinpointous.

0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:43.880
<v Speaker 2>Now you know that that's going to be rather difficult.

0:25:44.119 --> 0:25:46.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, you've just got to be on reasonable doubt and

0:25:46.880 --> 0:25:48.080
<v Speaker 1>you walk free.

0:25:48.520 --> 0:25:53.679
<v Speaker 2>Now what happened was because he was, let's say, making

0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:57.840
<v Speaker 2>enough confessions, and the solicitor came in the next day.

0:25:58.359 --> 0:26:01.560
<v Speaker 2>He said, he see what's going down. He said, you

0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:06.400
<v Speaker 2>do realize that he's cooperated so much that you're now

0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:09.040
<v Speaker 2>the bad boy. You know what they said to him.

0:26:09.800 --> 0:26:14.280
<v Speaker 2>If you make the statements and plead guilty, it won't

0:26:14.280 --> 0:26:16.640
<v Speaker 2>come out in court and you'll be able to sell

0:26:16.640 --> 0:26:18.800
<v Speaker 2>a movie. You're laughing.

0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:21.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm laughing. I think, if they're going to come up

0:26:21.880 --> 0:26:23.840
<v Speaker 1>with something, come up with something better than that. But

0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:24.919
<v Speaker 1>I understand.

0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:28.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yep, they got him his ego, they got him.

0:26:28.760 --> 0:26:31.560
<v Speaker 1>Well, I've always said in an interview room, you play

0:26:31.600 --> 0:26:34.920
<v Speaker 1>the person's weakness or you exploit that weakness. Now, if ego,

0:26:35.000 --> 0:26:37.520
<v Speaker 1>and I'm talking generally here, I'm not saying that's Pete's thing,

0:26:37.560 --> 0:26:41.359
<v Speaker 1>but if that's ego that sometimes, jeez, you are a good,

0:26:41.840 --> 0:26:43.880
<v Speaker 1>good bank robber. You've got the way of all these

0:26:43.960 --> 0:26:47.000
<v Speaker 1>And then oh, I actually did more. Yeah, you play

0:26:47.080 --> 0:26:48.040
<v Speaker 1>the people's.

0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Well he did. He told them, he told them about

0:26:50.000 --> 0:26:51.920
<v Speaker 2>a job that we did as a two man job.

0:26:52.440 --> 0:26:55.280
<v Speaker 2>They didn't know about it. Now, so what should have

0:26:55.320 --> 0:26:58.520
<v Speaker 2>happened is we should have been a really interesting court battle,

0:26:58.880 --> 0:27:02.680
<v Speaker 2>because a court batter gives you power with let's say,

0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:03.560
<v Speaker 2>a plea bargain.

0:27:04.200 --> 0:27:06.560
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's true. If it's a week a case, it's

0:27:06.840 --> 0:27:07.840
<v Speaker 1>easier to bargain.

0:27:07.960 --> 0:27:11.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Now, my solicitor said straight away, he's given him

0:27:11.960 --> 0:27:15.200
<v Speaker 2>enough evidence that they won't get you on twenty five

0:27:15.240 --> 0:27:17.560
<v Speaker 2>if you fight it. But they're going to give you

0:27:17.600 --> 0:27:20.040
<v Speaker 2>ten years for the first one because they're not going

0:27:20.080 --> 0:27:22.520
<v Speaker 2>to let you go, he said, So you've got nowhere

0:27:22.520 --> 0:27:25.880
<v Speaker 2>to go. Now. The next step was the fact that

0:27:26.280 --> 0:27:28.600
<v Speaker 2>these statements were so strong and you know, I'm not

0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:31.720
<v Speaker 2>going to say you'll fit people up, but if you

0:27:31.880 --> 0:27:34.480
<v Speaker 2>know the story, because he's given you so much information,

0:27:35.280 --> 0:27:38.240
<v Speaker 2>you can then go to other people and say, where

0:27:38.359 --> 0:27:41.160
<v Speaker 2>was Doug on a certain night because his brother says

0:27:41.160 --> 0:27:43.199
<v Speaker 2>it was over here. They would have went to my

0:27:43.359 --> 0:27:45.600
<v Speaker 2>wife and said, on the night of such and such

0:27:45.680 --> 0:27:48.479
<v Speaker 2>does your brother or sorry, was your husband home? And

0:27:48.520 --> 0:27:51.040
<v Speaker 2>she would have said no, they built houses in the

0:27:51.080 --> 0:27:53.800
<v Speaker 2>country and he goes away for a week at a time.

0:27:54.800 --> 0:27:57.560
<v Speaker 2>So I was fitted because my wife goes, oh, no,

0:27:57.640 --> 0:27:58.600
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't home that night.

0:27:59.400 --> 0:28:02.080
<v Speaker 1>How did that make you feel like we're pissed off

0:28:02.080 --> 0:28:02.639
<v Speaker 1>with your brother?

0:28:02.960 --> 0:28:05.600
<v Speaker 2>No, I'm a very understanding person. I'm not even angry

0:28:05.600 --> 0:28:09.600
<v Speaker 2>at my brother. You have to take responsibility because if

0:28:09.600 --> 0:28:12.720
<v Speaker 2>you keep blaming other people for your life, that means

0:28:12.760 --> 0:28:13.760
<v Speaker 2>you've got no control.

0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:17.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, Doug, that answers a lot to me, because I

0:28:17.040 --> 0:28:19.080
<v Speaker 1>was looking at your store and your brother's story, and

0:28:19.119 --> 0:28:21.200
<v Speaker 1>I thought, oh God, we're going to have an hour

0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:24.679
<v Speaker 1>of you going that doggie did this, he did that,

0:28:24.920 --> 0:28:27.440
<v Speaker 1>blah blah blah. Yeah, the way I think a lot

0:28:27.440 --> 0:28:29.760
<v Speaker 1>of people would react. But I understand where you're coming

0:28:29.760 --> 0:28:32.639
<v Speaker 1>from and that you accept your responsibilities. You're not going

0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:37.159
<v Speaker 1>to judge others. Everyone's different, so I do get an

0:28:37.240 --> 0:28:38.520
<v Speaker 1>understanding of what you're saying.

0:28:39.080 --> 0:28:42.080
<v Speaker 2>The greatest moment would be in my life if my

0:28:42.120 --> 0:28:45.200
<v Speaker 2>brother would just accept what he did and stop trying

0:28:45.200 --> 0:28:50.320
<v Speaker 2>to script the truth to hide his failures in life,

0:28:51.480 --> 0:28:54.160
<v Speaker 2>because my life had a lot of failures. The robberies,

0:28:54.200 --> 0:28:57.920
<v Speaker 2>they're failures. You know what I really think about bank

0:28:57.960 --> 0:29:02.560
<v Speaker 2>robbers and people in prison. I don't like you. I

0:29:02.600 --> 0:29:05.280
<v Speaker 2>really don't like you. I knocked around with some of

0:29:05.320 --> 0:29:09.040
<v Speaker 2>the heaviest criminals in Victoria's history, and I played tennis

0:29:09.080 --> 0:29:13.080
<v Speaker 2>with them on a tennis court. We're tennis players. I

0:29:13.120 --> 0:29:16.720
<v Speaker 2>don't like what you did off this court. While we're

0:29:16.760 --> 0:29:19.880
<v Speaker 2>on this court, we'll play tennis, but we will not

0:29:19.960 --> 0:29:21.560
<v Speaker 2>be friends off this court.

0:29:21.960 --> 0:29:24.600
<v Speaker 1>It makes sense. And the conversation we had the other day,

0:29:24.640 --> 0:29:27.520
<v Speaker 1>you were talking about criminals and even the way you

0:29:27.560 --> 0:29:32.000
<v Speaker 1>look at there's criminals that commit crime to make money

0:29:32.560 --> 0:29:36.200
<v Speaker 1>for money, crime for money. Then there's criminals that commit

0:29:36.400 --> 0:29:39.640
<v Speaker 1>crimes of violence, of vengeance and all the other things

0:29:39.680 --> 0:29:43.880
<v Speaker 1>that may evate people that commit horrendous crimes, and you

0:29:44.000 --> 0:29:45.160
<v Speaker 1>deviate between those.

0:29:45.560 --> 0:29:48.240
<v Speaker 2>I try to explain it to people. I'm mixed with

0:29:49.000 --> 0:29:53.480
<v Speaker 2>Victoria's worse or in the jail with Victoria's worst sex

0:29:53.520 --> 0:29:56.880
<v Speaker 2>offenders and child molesters and all sorts of things. I said,

0:29:56.920 --> 0:29:57.920
<v Speaker 2>how did I get here?

0:29:58.840 --> 0:30:00.080
<v Speaker 1>What? Well?

0:30:00.240 --> 0:30:02.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm not this is not natural for me.

0:30:02.720 --> 0:30:06.360
<v Speaker 1>That was your first stint inside? Yes, how were you arrested?

0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:09.720
<v Speaker 1>When were you arrested? And what were you convicted of?

0:30:10.360 --> 0:30:12.480
<v Speaker 2>I was convicted of about twenty four to twenty five

0:30:12.560 --> 0:30:17.120
<v Speaker 2>armed robberies, use of a firearm, stealing motor cars. I

0:30:17.240 --> 0:30:21.600
<v Speaker 2>was arrested unarmed by about forty coppers. I didn't surrender.

0:30:22.320 --> 0:30:24.320
<v Speaker 2>I ran down a laneway off a beach and ran

0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:27.560
<v Speaker 2>into the side of a divvy van right. They jumped

0:30:27.600 --> 0:30:30.200
<v Speaker 2>on me like a rugby scrum NRL style Up there.

0:30:31.240 --> 0:30:34.320
<v Speaker 2>All I could hear was grab the bag. Grab the bag,

0:30:34.400 --> 0:30:36.400
<v Speaker 2>there's probably a gun in it. And all I can

0:30:36.440 --> 0:30:38.800
<v Speaker 2>think of while I'm lying under all these coppers was

0:30:39.880 --> 0:30:44.320
<v Speaker 2>the grab the gun. It's another oswell. And then I

0:30:44.400 --> 0:30:47.200
<v Speaker 2>was handcuffed to two coppers. They take me back to

0:30:47.240 --> 0:30:50.040
<v Speaker 2>Frankstin police station. They were told not to talk to me.

0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:52.680
<v Speaker 2>I kept talking to one of them because he was

0:30:52.720 --> 0:30:55.880
<v Speaker 2>shaking so badly and he wouldn't talk to me, and

0:30:55.880 --> 0:30:57.640
<v Speaker 2>I said, look, mate, I knowin not thatw to talk

0:30:57.680 --> 0:31:00.080
<v Speaker 2>to me, but were just settled down. I'm supposed to

0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:02.440
<v Speaker 2>be the one that's nervous, so it.

0:31:02.400 --> 0:31:04.920
<v Speaker 1>Was nerves, not anger who was shaking you reckon.

0:31:05.160 --> 0:31:07.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what and you know what I was thinking.

0:31:07.280 --> 0:31:09.680
<v Speaker 2>And this is how stupid I am. There was a

0:31:09.720 --> 0:31:11.720
<v Speaker 2>window behind me, and I'm sitting on a desk and

0:31:11.840 --> 0:31:14.400
<v Speaker 2>as hard against the window. I was seen it myself.

0:31:14.520 --> 0:31:16.200
<v Speaker 2>Like in the movies, you see all sorts of things.

0:31:16.640 --> 0:31:19.440
<v Speaker 2>I thought, I wonder what happens if I spring up

0:31:19.840 --> 0:31:22.760
<v Speaker 2>and I throw myself out through the window. Will the

0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:24.520
<v Speaker 2>cuffs come off before I hit the ground?

0:31:26.480 --> 0:31:28.720
<v Speaker 1>Well? Probably not? Probably not.

0:31:28.960 --> 0:31:32.440
<v Speaker 2>Well that's the conclusion I reached before I sprang out

0:31:32.440 --> 0:31:35.760
<v Speaker 2>through the window backwards. Yeah, and look, I make light

0:31:35.840 --> 0:31:37.520
<v Speaker 2>of it. This is how I went through my jail.

0:31:38.000 --> 0:31:41.240
<v Speaker 1>I do like the fact that, like, jail's a very

0:31:41.240 --> 0:31:44.360
<v Speaker 1>personal experience, and everyone's experience in jail is a little

0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:46.880
<v Speaker 1>bit different. But I haven't heard your winge about it.

0:31:47.240 --> 0:31:49.960
<v Speaker 1>You've got a smile on your face, and there's horrific

0:31:50.000 --> 0:31:52.080
<v Speaker 1>things that happen in jail, as you know better than

0:31:52.080 --> 0:31:52.320
<v Speaker 1>I do.

0:31:52.520 --> 0:31:54.600
<v Speaker 2>But I'll tell you something. Right here, I'll tell you

0:31:54.640 --> 0:31:57.240
<v Speaker 2>how horrific it is. See that there? Can you see

0:31:57.240 --> 0:31:57.680
<v Speaker 2>the cross?

0:31:58.200 --> 0:31:59.040
<v Speaker 1>It's a cross, is it?

0:31:59.120 --> 0:32:00.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:32:00.040 --> 0:32:00.680
<v Speaker 1>Ye?

0:32:01.040 --> 0:32:03.400
<v Speaker 2>That has cut out of a window bar. And that's

0:32:03.440 --> 0:32:07.280
<v Speaker 2>for the eight young fellas that hung themselves because they

0:32:07.320 --> 0:32:12.400
<v Speaker 2>couldn't handle the brutality from prison guards, screws, or prisoners

0:32:12.400 --> 0:32:14.960
<v Speaker 2>trying to rape them. I wear that in honor of

0:32:14.960 --> 0:32:15.560
<v Speaker 2>those boys.

0:32:18.000 --> 0:32:22.080
<v Speaker 1>So your brother did time in the same prison.

0:32:22.520 --> 0:32:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and there was talk that was going to get

0:32:26.600 --> 0:32:30.520
<v Speaker 2>him right. And when I walked in and went into

0:32:30.560 --> 0:32:33.080
<v Speaker 2>the yard, and they were animal yards like cattle yards

0:32:33.080 --> 0:32:35.640
<v Speaker 2>in those days, I looked around and went, there's seventy

0:32:35.640 --> 0:32:39.040
<v Speaker 2>people that I don't know, even my brother. Would be

0:32:39.040 --> 0:32:41.959
<v Speaker 2>better to have him on my side if something's going

0:32:42.000 --> 0:32:44.560
<v Speaker 2>to go down. So he was the enemy. That was

0:32:44.600 --> 0:32:47.840
<v Speaker 2>Watterson as bad as the unknown enemy. So can you

0:32:48.120 --> 0:32:50.680
<v Speaker 2>now understand I'm not worried about what you have done.

0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:52.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm worried about the next twelve years.

0:32:52.720 --> 0:32:53.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:32:54.320 --> 0:32:59.840
<v Speaker 2>But what I underestimated or overestimated was during that twelve

0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:01.240
<v Speaker 2>years he would never back me up.

0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:06.120
<v Speaker 1>I'm confused. We should do a relationship podcast about you

0:33:06.600 --> 0:33:11.080
<v Speaker 1>and your brother, because you've still you both built houses together,

0:33:12.040 --> 0:33:15.520
<v Speaker 1>rob banks and tabs together. And then even after all

0:33:15.520 --> 0:33:17.240
<v Speaker 1>this shit, after you got out of Joe, you went

0:33:17.280 --> 0:33:18.680
<v Speaker 1>back in the building together.

0:33:19.000 --> 0:33:23.760
<v Speaker 2>Because I look, should I be angry because his level

0:33:24.080 --> 0:33:25.880
<v Speaker 2>of my expectations was wrong?

0:33:26.680 --> 0:33:29.880
<v Speaker 1>No, And you answered that very well before. I do

0:33:30.000 --> 0:33:32.720
<v Speaker 1>understand where you're coming from. I'm just a little bit confused.

0:33:32.760 --> 0:33:34.880
<v Speaker 1>You're a very forgiving, forgiving man.

0:33:35.120 --> 0:33:38.680
<v Speaker 2>Well I didn't say I forgive. I understand. Yeah, yeah,

0:33:38.720 --> 0:33:42.080
<v Speaker 2>but I would process it or maybe more disappointment.

0:33:42.680 --> 0:33:46.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, fair cool. So your art you're saying you'd

0:33:46.920 --> 0:33:49.320
<v Speaker 1>already broken away from the life of crime when you

0:33:49.680 --> 0:33:52.920
<v Speaker 1>went in. So when you're doing your time, you're ten

0:33:52.960 --> 0:33:55.160
<v Speaker 1>and a half years or twelve, subject to debate. Let's go,

0:33:57.720 --> 0:33:58.680
<v Speaker 1>we'll add another year.

0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:00.440
<v Speaker 2>Yep, we'll probably just served it.

0:34:01.760 --> 0:34:04.840
<v Speaker 1>You might go back in after this. I don't think

0:34:04.880 --> 0:34:09.719
<v Speaker 1>I can sense you. I'd try. You were always you

0:34:09.719 --> 0:34:11.360
<v Speaker 1>weren't going to go back to the life of crime.

0:34:11.400 --> 0:34:14.040
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't sort of thinking. So it wasn't a watershed

0:34:14.080 --> 0:34:16.680
<v Speaker 1>moment in the jail that you thought, no, this life's

0:34:16.719 --> 0:34:18.759
<v Speaker 1>not for me. You knew at the moment you walked in.

0:34:19.120 --> 0:34:21.520
<v Speaker 2>I'll give you something. Yeah, this is a word of

0:34:21.520 --> 0:34:24.920
<v Speaker 2>advice to everybody in the world, run by Dougie's rules.

0:34:25.680 --> 0:34:28.600
<v Speaker 2>When you make a decision and you feel your weakening

0:34:28.600 --> 0:34:32.280
<v Speaker 2>on that decision, stand up and look in the mirror

0:34:33.040 --> 0:34:36.759
<v Speaker 2>and you ask yourself, yes, perhaps I can lie to

0:34:36.800 --> 0:34:40.440
<v Speaker 2>other people, but what sort of man lies to himself?

0:34:41.239 --> 0:34:43.120
<v Speaker 2>So if you make a decision, you know it's right.

0:34:43.760 --> 0:34:46.839
<v Speaker 2>I'll be honest. Three or four years after I was out,

0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:49.680
<v Speaker 2>was really hard pushing, and it's a tough life coming

0:34:49.680 --> 0:34:51.840
<v Speaker 2>out of twelve years of jail and having to settle

0:34:51.880 --> 0:34:54.359
<v Speaker 2>back down to earning a living. And I had a

0:34:54.400 --> 0:34:57.120
<v Speaker 2>moment where one night I sat there and thought about

0:34:57.360 --> 0:35:00.840
<v Speaker 2>the future and I was trying to make a decision

0:35:01.920 --> 0:35:05.879
<v Speaker 2>do I continue on this righteous path? And I said,

0:35:05.880 --> 0:35:10.320
<v Speaker 2>it's pretty tough, And then I went, try a bit harder, Dougie,

0:35:10.360 --> 0:35:13.560
<v Speaker 2>try a bit harder, because I'm not going to lie

0:35:13.600 --> 0:35:17.240
<v Speaker 2>to myself. And that's it. Every time it gets tough,

0:35:18.200 --> 0:35:20.880
<v Speaker 2>go back to what you believe was the correct decision,

0:35:21.680 --> 0:35:24.640
<v Speaker 2>and don't lie to yourself. And it was the right decision.

0:35:25.280 --> 0:35:27.520
<v Speaker 2>I go and watch my grandchildren play football.

0:35:27.560 --> 0:35:30.000
<v Speaker 1>Now, yeah, well, you know I'm looking at you, and

0:35:30.040 --> 0:35:32.720
<v Speaker 1>you don't look like you're a man. That's been broken

0:35:32.760 --> 0:35:36.080
<v Speaker 1>by life. There's a lot of positive, positive vibes.

0:35:35.920 --> 0:35:38.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, they're saying the army makes and breaks.

0:35:39.400 --> 0:35:39.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:35:40.080 --> 0:35:43.200
<v Speaker 2>I had so much adventure and fun in jail. I

0:35:43.239 --> 0:35:46.960
<v Speaker 2>got shot at during an escape attempt. You know. The

0:35:47.000 --> 0:35:49.919
<v Speaker 2>screw came down to my cell and haste vision that night,

0:35:50.680 --> 0:35:52.960
<v Speaker 2>knocked on the trap and said, Dougie, am I okay?

0:35:54.360 --> 0:35:57.600
<v Speaker 2>And at first I thought what's he talking about? Then

0:35:57.640 --> 0:36:02.080
<v Speaker 2>I got it. Our family will police you. He might

0:36:02.120 --> 0:36:04.120
<v Speaker 2>think I'll retaliate in twelve years time.

0:36:04.320 --> 0:36:06.080
<v Speaker 1>Ah, I see where you're coming from.

0:36:06.160 --> 0:36:09.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we used to sit down years later and laugh

0:36:10.239 --> 0:36:11.000
<v Speaker 2>about that day.

0:36:11.400 --> 0:36:14.319
<v Speaker 1>So tell us about because you do meet up with

0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:16.600
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the corrective, not a lot that you

0:36:17.320 --> 0:36:20.920
<v Speaker 1>have socialized. I suppose having a beer with former creative

0:36:20.960 --> 0:36:23.720
<v Speaker 1>services officers, because what are you doing at the now

0:36:24.280 --> 0:36:27.360
<v Speaker 1>the new Pentridge jail or it's not a jar anymore,

0:36:27.400 --> 0:36:29.440
<v Speaker 1>it's a you describe it the bar.

0:36:30.040 --> 0:36:33.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, what I like to think is on educating people

0:36:33.880 --> 0:36:38.560
<v Speaker 2>on the brutality what you're going to expect if you

0:36:38.640 --> 0:36:41.160
<v Speaker 2>cross the blue line. I like to call it the

0:36:41.200 --> 0:36:43.400
<v Speaker 2>blue line that you cross, or the cost of crime.

0:36:44.000 --> 0:36:47.280
<v Speaker 2>There's a cost of crime to both sides. I guarantee

0:36:47.280 --> 0:36:48.520
<v Speaker 2>you've had the cost of crime.

0:36:49.000 --> 0:36:50.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, so you.

0:36:50.719 --> 0:36:53.360
<v Speaker 2>Know what I'm talking about. Yeah, there's not really a

0:36:53.360 --> 0:36:58.719
<v Speaker 2>good story anywhere on either side because prison officers became depressed,

0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:02.360
<v Speaker 2>they became oken, marriages, all sorts of things because of

0:37:02.400 --> 0:37:05.400
<v Speaker 2>the stress of the situation. I went out with a

0:37:05.400 --> 0:37:07.960
<v Speaker 2>prison officer for three years, ten years after I got

0:37:07.960 --> 0:37:10.480
<v Speaker 2>out of jail, and I learned about what it was

0:37:10.560 --> 0:37:12.840
<v Speaker 2>like for those guys. She wasn't a guy, she was

0:37:12.840 --> 0:37:13.160
<v Speaker 2>a woman.

0:37:13.440 --> 0:37:18.040
<v Speaker 1>But I mean, yeah, you run with that.

0:37:18.239 --> 0:37:22.319
<v Speaker 2>This is show you. I'll show your photos later. And

0:37:22.560 --> 0:37:25.280
<v Speaker 2>I learn a lot about the jail from the other side,

0:37:25.880 --> 0:37:28.600
<v Speaker 2>about all the heavies that were giving people up. I

0:37:28.640 --> 0:37:33.560
<v Speaker 2>have a great understanding for the overall picture. Now as

0:37:33.560 --> 0:37:35.880
<v Speaker 2>far as have you forgotten the question you asked me

0:37:36.000 --> 0:37:38.080
<v Speaker 2>that I have, Oh what do I do with brew

0:37:38.160 --> 0:37:41.360
<v Speaker 2>dog at the jar? It's a very good platform to

0:37:41.560 --> 0:37:45.480
<v Speaker 2>raise what the price is of crime. If I want

0:37:45.480 --> 0:37:48.759
<v Speaker 2>to talk about car racing, well let's do it while

0:37:48.760 --> 0:37:52.799
<v Speaker 2>we watch Ellen Moffatt or Peter Brock or whatever. So

0:37:53.320 --> 0:37:57.080
<v Speaker 2>let's take it to where we have some feeling for it,

0:37:57.520 --> 0:38:00.680
<v Speaker 2>and you can come and visit me and you about

0:38:00.680 --> 0:38:02.520
<v Speaker 2>what it's really like and what the cost will be.

0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:05.839
<v Speaker 2>So there in that situation, I've bumped into a lot

0:38:05.840 --> 0:38:08.560
<v Speaker 2>of ex prison officers and they all want to put

0:38:08.600 --> 0:38:12.040
<v Speaker 2>their arm around me, and I just jested with them,

0:38:12.080 --> 0:38:13.920
<v Speaker 2>and I give them the same lip. I had a

0:38:14.040 --> 0:38:17.000
<v Speaker 2>governor that punished me very severely once and put me

0:38:17.000 --> 0:38:20.560
<v Speaker 2>in Haite Division, and they were taking photos of us,

0:38:20.600 --> 0:38:22.279
<v Speaker 2>and I had my arm around his shoulder like you

0:38:22.320 --> 0:38:25.040
<v Speaker 2>normally do in the old photos with and I was

0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:27.520
<v Speaker 2>whispering in his ear when everybody was too far away

0:38:27.520 --> 0:38:30.560
<v Speaker 2>to here, I go, Remember that jelly night. You never

0:38:30.600 --> 0:38:34.680
<v Speaker 2>got me? So I like to give people a slap,

0:38:34.719 --> 0:38:38.640
<v Speaker 2>even forty years later. And he laughed. He said, yeah,

0:38:38.719 --> 0:38:41.200
<v Speaker 2>I know, and we both had a laugh about it.

0:38:41.600 --> 0:38:46.279
<v Speaker 1>But not everyone would be capable of that. I would

0:38:46.320 --> 0:38:48.560
<v Speaker 1>imagine there's a lot of people that there's a resistance

0:38:48.560 --> 0:38:50.279
<v Speaker 1>as a blue and the green, and people are.

0:38:50.360 --> 0:38:54.000
<v Speaker 2>Sure, well, I like to say this, and you'll look

0:38:54.280 --> 0:38:57.000
<v Speaker 2>because you're you're a understanding because you've been in the

0:38:57.760 --> 0:39:03.800
<v Speaker 2>We're not much different really, because we both understand. Right now,

0:39:03.920 --> 0:39:06.440
<v Speaker 2>I'd like to say to people, why would I be

0:39:06.480 --> 0:39:10.360
<v Speaker 2>angry at a copper? I don't remember coppers coming to

0:39:10.440 --> 0:39:15.000
<v Speaker 2>my house and dragging me into a bank and making

0:39:15.040 --> 0:39:18.880
<v Speaker 2>me rob it. Now I can go the other way

0:39:19.040 --> 0:39:21.399
<v Speaker 2>because my brother told me that I would not come

0:39:21.440 --> 0:39:24.520
<v Speaker 2>in I would be heavily armed. The armed robbery squad

0:39:24.880 --> 0:39:30.120
<v Speaker 2>held my family hostage in my house for four days.

0:39:30.840 --> 0:39:34.359
<v Speaker 2>My three and five year old son and daughter had

0:39:34.400 --> 0:39:38.000
<v Speaker 2>to sit in the bathroom all day, and I sometimes

0:39:38.080 --> 0:39:41.200
<v Speaker 2>wonder if they were old enough to comprehend that if

0:39:41.239 --> 0:39:43.120
<v Speaker 2>I walk through that door, I was going to be shot.

0:39:43.719 --> 0:39:45.120
<v Speaker 2>So there's always two sides.

0:39:45.200 --> 0:39:47.759
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, and I understand it would have been an

0:39:47.800 --> 0:39:51.360
<v Speaker 1>intense situation when the cops are after you, exactly.

0:39:51.200 --> 0:39:56.080
<v Speaker 2>But I don't give them much other avenue. So who's

0:39:56.160 --> 0:39:58.240
<v Speaker 2>responsible for what my children went through?

0:39:59.200 --> 0:40:01.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, you do impress me in the fact that you

0:40:02.280 --> 0:40:06.040
<v Speaker 1>take ownership all the stuff when you look back at

0:40:07.000 --> 0:40:10.760
<v Speaker 1>all the places that were robbed. I know and speaking

0:40:10.800 --> 0:40:15.000
<v Speaker 1>to other people that bank robbers from the past didn't

0:40:15.040 --> 0:40:18.919
<v Speaker 1>fully appreciate the psychological damage. You walk out. You haven't

0:40:18.920 --> 0:40:21.800
<v Speaker 1>showed anyone. You think, oh, well, I'm not a bad person.

0:40:22.360 --> 0:40:24.359
<v Speaker 2>Well do you reflate the damage is done?

0:40:24.440 --> 0:40:25.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you reflect on that.

0:40:26.280 --> 0:40:32.040
<v Speaker 2>So the actual stress is perceived stress. But guess what

0:40:32.960 --> 0:40:36.520
<v Speaker 2>that is real. That is far more damaging. I'll tell

0:40:36.560 --> 0:40:40.400
<v Speaker 2>you a story from my side. A young fella that

0:40:40.520 --> 0:40:43.399
<v Speaker 2>believed he was going to be beaten up the next

0:40:43.480 --> 0:40:47.279
<v Speaker 2>day by a heavy and jail was so stressed he

0:40:47.360 --> 0:40:50.640
<v Speaker 2>went to his cell with no mother to turn to,

0:40:51.280 --> 0:40:53.840
<v Speaker 2>no phone call to talk to his brother or his

0:40:53.920 --> 0:40:57.440
<v Speaker 2>sister or his father. The stress of being beaten up

0:40:57.560 --> 0:41:02.279
<v Speaker 2>and only by hand, he hung himself that night. It's

0:41:02.320 --> 0:41:07.839
<v Speaker 2>the perceived situation that stresses people. I jokingly say. Now,

0:41:08.280 --> 0:41:10.399
<v Speaker 2>people say, could you rob a bank? I go, I could.

0:41:10.480 --> 0:41:12.600
<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you how I do it. I will do

0:41:12.640 --> 0:41:15.560
<v Speaker 2>the job. Let's say jobs should still be done because

0:41:15.560 --> 0:41:17.640
<v Speaker 2>we've got to go back to that era. I will

0:41:17.719 --> 0:41:19.560
<v Speaker 2>do the job. And as I walk through the door,

0:41:19.600 --> 0:41:22.440
<v Speaker 2>as I'm leaving with the cash, I would throw my

0:41:22.600 --> 0:41:27.200
<v Speaker 2>water pistol back over my head and go, I'm sorry,

0:41:27.760 --> 0:41:31.239
<v Speaker 2>but it was just a water pistol. Don't stress. I'm

0:41:31.280 --> 0:41:36.720
<v Speaker 2>gone because now I understand the stress. But I didn't

0:41:36.880 --> 0:41:41.719
<v Speaker 2>perceive that stress because you know, I'm jovial about even

0:41:41.719 --> 0:41:49.080
<v Speaker 2>if I was robbed. So therefore I believed all army soldiers, Navy,

0:41:49.520 --> 0:41:55.520
<v Speaker 2>Air Force, police, bank tellers are trained. What I didn't

0:41:55.560 --> 0:41:59.640
<v Speaker 2>realize is they all have different personalities and levels of stress.

0:42:00.640 --> 0:42:04.719
<v Speaker 2>There's probably police officers that suffer worse than me. Oh

0:42:04.840 --> 0:42:09.640
<v Speaker 2>absolutely more. I don't suffer because I accept all this

0:42:10.440 --> 0:42:12.759
<v Speaker 2>and so you can't hurt me. Nobody in the world

0:42:12.760 --> 0:42:17.960
<v Speaker 2>can hurt me. I carry the demons. I'm my worst critic.

0:42:18.640 --> 0:42:21.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, you made that point earlier on that. You know,

0:42:21.840 --> 0:42:24.040
<v Speaker 1>how's your life or judge of in the last ten

0:42:24.080 --> 0:42:26.680
<v Speaker 1>seconds of your life and look back and can you

0:42:26.719 --> 0:42:29.879
<v Speaker 1>face yourself in the mirror and done everything I can?

0:42:30.520 --> 0:42:34.920
<v Speaker 1>What's a message you'd give for young and like, I

0:42:34.960 --> 0:42:37.480
<v Speaker 1>don't think no matter what. Maybe there's a retro thing.

0:42:37.560 --> 0:42:40.640
<v Speaker 1>The music comes back in fashion, clothing comes back in fashion.

0:42:40.680 --> 0:42:43.880
<v Speaker 1>Maybe robberies and banks come back in fashion. I do

0:42:44.120 --> 0:42:49.040
<v Speaker 1>so that'd be crazy, but I doubt it. But the

0:42:49.160 --> 0:42:52.000
<v Speaker 1>currency of crime now there's different type of crime. And

0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:54.560
<v Speaker 1>then back in the day and back twenty years ago.

0:42:54.960 --> 0:42:58.680
<v Speaker 1>But what message would you give to know young blake

0:42:58.800 --> 0:43:01.799
<v Speaker 1>or girls these days that think it's sclamorous a life

0:43:01.800 --> 0:43:05.080
<v Speaker 1>of crime and where the consequences might be you end

0:43:05.160 --> 0:43:07.760
<v Speaker 1>up in prison or sorry, okry the guilt.

0:43:07.920 --> 0:43:10.879
<v Speaker 2>Over the last thirty five years, I've trained many, many

0:43:10.960 --> 0:43:14.480
<v Speaker 2>young men as apprentices. All of them talk to me

0:43:14.920 --> 0:43:17.920
<v Speaker 2>with total freedom because they know who I am. There

0:43:17.960 --> 0:43:22.080
<v Speaker 2>was one apprentice that was selling party drugs pills, and

0:43:22.080 --> 0:43:24.080
<v Speaker 2>he came to me one day. I know what they're doing,

0:43:24.040 --> 0:43:25.680
<v Speaker 2>and I'm not going to condemn them. It's not my

0:43:25.800 --> 0:43:29.080
<v Speaker 2>role to condemn people. I will try and point out

0:43:29.400 --> 0:43:31.600
<v Speaker 2>what you'll get yourself into. I won't condemn you, and

0:43:31.640 --> 0:43:33.360
<v Speaker 2>I won't tell you what you can do with your life.

0:43:34.040 --> 0:43:36.520
<v Speaker 2>For all I know you're a bad person, but that's

0:43:36.520 --> 0:43:41.439
<v Speaker 2>your business. Now. This guy he comes to me on

0:43:43.000 --> 0:43:45.760
<v Speaker 2>I think it was a Monday, and he said, oh, look,

0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:49.480
<v Speaker 2>on a Friday night he met with three guys with

0:43:49.560 --> 0:43:51.959
<v Speaker 2>one thousand dollars for some pills for the week under sell.

0:43:52.719 --> 0:43:55.840
<v Speaker 2>And he said, but what happened was they had machetes.

0:43:55.840 --> 0:43:57.920
<v Speaker 2>And this is about ten years back, so machetes have

0:43:57.920 --> 0:44:02.560
<v Speaker 2>been around for a while. They are very intimidating piece

0:44:02.640 --> 0:44:05.759
<v Speaker 2>of equipment. Now, he said, what they did was they

0:44:05.760 --> 0:44:08.480
<v Speaker 2>took my thousand dollars and think of many pills. And

0:44:08.520 --> 0:44:11.080
<v Speaker 2>I said, well, you're about to learn the lesson of crime.

0:44:12.400 --> 0:44:16.680
<v Speaker 2>What happens in crime. You can't control this direction. What

0:44:16.760 --> 0:44:19.640
<v Speaker 2>will happen is you have to make a decision. Now,

0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:23.359
<v Speaker 2>are you going to take the next step and rearrange

0:44:23.440 --> 0:44:26.640
<v Speaker 2>with somebody else to meet these guys and you'll turn

0:44:26.719 --> 0:44:29.719
<v Speaker 2>up with a bigger machete And then what they'll do

0:44:30.320 --> 0:44:32.160
<v Speaker 2>is they will arrange get back at you with a

0:44:32.160 --> 0:44:35.720
<v Speaker 2>bigger machete, which might be a gun. So so today

0:44:35.760 --> 0:44:38.680
<v Speaker 2>I want you to think about if you're in or

0:44:38.719 --> 0:44:41.879
<v Speaker 2>you're out. He came back to me at three point thirty.

0:44:41.880 --> 0:44:44.200
<v Speaker 2>He said, Dug, I'm out. I said, I'm very happy

0:44:44.239 --> 0:44:48.360
<v Speaker 2>for you. You made the right decision. Now, what happens

0:44:48.440 --> 0:44:50.720
<v Speaker 2>is young people they start selling a bit of drugs

0:44:50.719 --> 0:44:52.839
<v Speaker 2>so they don't have to pay for their drugs. What

0:44:52.880 --> 0:44:55.360
<v Speaker 2>they don't realize is you slowly get in deeper and

0:44:55.400 --> 0:44:57.759
<v Speaker 2>deeper and deeper, and I'm going to use the great

0:44:57.800 --> 0:45:04.399
<v Speaker 2>Carl Williams. Williams tried to use the press to make

0:45:04.440 --> 0:45:05.880
<v Speaker 2>some drugs and make some money.

0:45:06.440 --> 0:45:07.160
<v Speaker 1>He's pill press.

0:45:07.960 --> 0:45:12.799
<v Speaker 2>What happened was they found out and they shot him.

0:45:13.160 --> 0:45:18.040
<v Speaker 2>Carle probably asked himself, when Carl was doing the drugs

0:45:18.120 --> 0:45:21.880
<v Speaker 2>at that stage, he didn't perceive himself as being a killer.

0:45:22.719 --> 0:45:25.520
<v Speaker 1>You agree, yeah, yeah, I think this is a reasonable

0:45:25.520 --> 0:45:26.440
<v Speaker 1>way of describing it.

0:45:27.000 --> 0:45:31.879
<v Speaker 2>Then they shot him, so he made a decision to retaliate.

0:45:33.000 --> 0:45:36.080
<v Speaker 2>If Carl Williams walks away when he was shot, a

0:45:36.080 --> 0:45:39.440
<v Speaker 2>lot of people don't die. But what happens in crime,

0:45:40.120 --> 0:45:44.680
<v Speaker 2>it keeps escalating out of control. Like my brother when

0:45:44.680 --> 0:45:48.720
<v Speaker 2>his ego escalated him out of control and he shoots

0:45:48.920 --> 0:45:53.400
<v Speaker 2>Ray Kosh. It's not this crime or that crime or

0:45:53.400 --> 0:45:58.200
<v Speaker 2>that crime. It happens. That's what happens in crime. You

0:45:58.360 --> 0:46:03.000
<v Speaker 2>lose control and you maybe stupidly go to the next level.

0:46:04.360 --> 0:46:07.080
<v Speaker 2>That's it. That's what you have to tell young people.

0:46:07.120 --> 0:46:10.640
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think that's I haven't heard it spoken that way,

0:46:10.680 --> 0:46:13.440
<v Speaker 1>but that's a good breakdown of of course, in their

0:46:13.480 --> 0:46:16.680
<v Speaker 1>detail of how it can escalate, and before you know it,

0:46:16.760 --> 0:46:20.120
<v Speaker 1>you're in deeper than you care to be and the

0:46:20.200 --> 0:46:24.960
<v Speaker 1>consequences are pretty heavy. Look, I will wrap up on

0:46:25.000 --> 0:46:27.640
<v Speaker 1>that note. Just the stuff you do with your ard,

0:46:27.680 --> 0:46:29.560
<v Speaker 1>if people want to reach out to you, and the

0:46:29.600 --> 0:46:31.840
<v Speaker 1>type of things. What are you doing these days?

0:46:31.880 --> 0:46:34.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, probably the only important thing some of the money

0:46:34.360 --> 0:46:36.680
<v Speaker 2>that I raised from art. I don't know if you

0:46:36.719 --> 0:46:40.239
<v Speaker 2>can see that. That's a bluestone key ring with Ned

0:46:40.320 --> 0:46:41.359
<v Speaker 2>Kelly painted on it.

0:46:41.600 --> 0:46:42.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yep, now.

0:46:42.880 --> 0:46:46.160
<v Speaker 2>We sell these things. I still I'm going back working

0:46:46.160 --> 0:46:49.479
<v Speaker 2>with the Salvos and we'll be selling them for about

0:46:49.480 --> 0:46:52.080
<v Speaker 2>fifteen dollars and five dollars we'll go to the guys

0:46:52.080 --> 0:46:54.200
<v Speaker 2>who make them, five dollars will go to the guys

0:46:54.200 --> 0:46:56.400
<v Speaker 2>who sell them, and five dollars will go to the Salvos.

0:46:57.080 --> 0:46:59.280
<v Speaker 2>And I've got a deal with one of the chaplains

0:46:59.320 --> 0:47:02.120
<v Speaker 2>that they'll tell me things that people getting out of

0:47:02.239 --> 0:47:04.920
<v Speaker 2>young people getting out of jail require to set their

0:47:04.960 --> 0:47:07.080
<v Speaker 2>lives up. So what I want to do is spend

0:47:07.160 --> 0:47:10.600
<v Speaker 2>some time raising money and going back to mentoring, because

0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:15.759
<v Speaker 2>I've done mentoring with prisons before and it's like, we

0:47:15.840 --> 0:47:17.719
<v Speaker 2>can all be a show pony, or we can all

0:47:17.760 --> 0:47:21.319
<v Speaker 2>do things for the things that you do that are

0:47:21.360 --> 0:47:25.880
<v Speaker 2>positive will give your life some value. I seek value

0:47:25.960 --> 0:47:26.680
<v Speaker 2>in my life.

0:47:27.719 --> 0:47:30.600
<v Speaker 1>I can understand that you look like you're enjoying your life.

0:47:31.440 --> 0:47:33.799
<v Speaker 1>Where can people reach out to you if they want

0:47:33.800 --> 0:47:34.560
<v Speaker 1>to contact with you.

0:47:34.920 --> 0:47:37.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, if they go to brew Dog Pub at Pentries

0:47:37.920 --> 0:47:41.239
<v Speaker 2>Jail and they ask for Doug, they'll be told, no,

0:47:41.360 --> 0:47:43.799
<v Speaker 2>he's not here today, or he is here today. But

0:47:44.560 --> 0:47:47.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm retired. So in theory, I'm supposed to be the

0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:52.040
<v Speaker 2>jail artist and his story and every day after three o'clock, okay,

0:47:52.239 --> 0:47:54.200
<v Speaker 2>but sometimes I get lazy.

0:47:54.719 --> 0:47:57.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, we all need a day off every now and then, Doug,

0:47:57.719 --> 0:48:01.040
<v Speaker 1>I've enjoyed the enjoyed the chat. Thanks for making the

0:48:01.080 --> 0:48:03.799
<v Speaker 1>effort and giving this an insight into a world that

0:48:03.880 --> 0:48:06.719
<v Speaker 1>most of us don't get to sea or fully understand.

0:48:06.800 --> 0:48:09.000
<v Speaker 1>So that's what I like to do on the podcast.

0:48:09.040 --> 0:48:11.160
<v Speaker 1>That's what we've been trying to do for years. Let

0:48:11.239 --> 0:48:13.839
<v Speaker 1>people fully understand what goes on in the world of crime,

0:48:13.880 --> 0:48:18.319
<v Speaker 1>because there's this misconception. But people are now, okay, this

0:48:18.400 --> 0:48:21.600
<v Speaker 1>is a real live robber and we've just had a

0:48:21.680 --> 0:48:24.200
<v Speaker 1>sit down chat and talking to an next cop who

0:48:24.200 --> 0:48:27.960
<v Speaker 1>would have thought so. I appreciate you, honestly, people get

0:48:27.960 --> 0:48:28.919
<v Speaker 1>to understand the world.

0:48:29.160 --> 0:48:30.840
<v Speaker 2>You don't seem a bad blake for a copper.

0:48:32.239 --> 0:48:33.680
<v Speaker 1>You're all right for an arm Robert too.

0:48:34.040 --> 0:48:35.320
<v Speaker 2>That's been quoted in books.

0:48:35.320 --> 0:48:40.759
<v Speaker 1>Actually fair core. All right, Well, thank you very much,

0:48:41.080 --> 0:48:43.280
<v Speaker 1>and yeah, we'll stay in touch.

0:48:43.400 --> 0:48:45.960
<v Speaker 2>And one last thing, and you've got to think about this.

0:48:46.120 --> 0:48:46.520
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

0:48:46.680 --> 0:48:49.520
<v Speaker 2>I will never know if I've ever helped anybody, but

0:48:49.600 --> 0:48:51.480
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't matter. I try.

0:48:52.239 --> 0:48:54.759
<v Speaker 1>I like your attitude on things. Do I can see

0:48:54.760 --> 0:48:57.120
<v Speaker 1>why you made it through some hard times and come

0:48:57.160 --> 0:49:01.479
<v Speaker 1>out the other end good stuff. Take care in the back.

0:49:02.320 --> 0:49:05.520
<v Speaker 2>Never never, anti bas