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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: In Part two of my chat with former bank Robert

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Speaker 1: Doug Morgan, we delve further into his life as a

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Speaker 1: notorist armed robber, how he and his brother Pete were

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Speaker 1: arrested after a police officer was shot during an armed robbery.

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Speaker 1: We also discuss how he survived Penridge jail, how he

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Speaker 1: turned his life around, and the warning he has for

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Speaker 1: others that might consider following the path he took. I

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Speaker 1: also asked Doug how he now feels about all the

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Speaker 1: people he terrorized during his career as a bank robber.

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Speaker 1: It was an interesting chat, that's for sure. Okay, Doug Morgan,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Hang on, What am I doing on this one? This

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Speaker 2: is I'm not a killer?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's a fine life, fine line when you

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Speaker 1: walking to a bank or a tab with a gun.

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Speaker 2: I totally agree, and when I look back the mistake

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Speaker 2: I made I was a bank teller. I believe that

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Speaker 2: anybody behind the counter and a TV or a bank

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Speaker 2: was trained the same as I was. Because I grew

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Speaker 2: up in a crime family, my capacity to handle things

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Speaker 2: is probably different to people who have been trained but

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Speaker 2: don't have the capacity to handle the actual live situation.

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Speaker 2: So I actually believe that they would be about as

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Speaker 2: stressed as I would be if I was the bank teller.

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Speaker 2: And a funny little story is I wasn't allowed to

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Speaker 2: have a gun because I was seventeen when I was

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Speaker 2: a bank teller. I'd been trained, but I wasn't actually

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Speaker 2: physically allowed to have a gun. So I went down

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Speaker 2: the street to let's say, an army disposal store, and

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Speaker 2: I bought the biggest and longest and most offensive looking

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Speaker 2: letter opener I could have, and used to put it

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Speaker 2: on my desk, on my teller's unit. And if you

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Speaker 2: try to rob me, I'm going to stab you with

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Speaker 2: my letter opener.

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Speaker 1: Well, see, that's the thing when you go in there,

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Speaker 1: and that's why I talk about the risk or before

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Speaker 1: you go in, you do not know how people are

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Speaker 1: going to react when confronted by that situation.

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Speaker 2: Well, do you want to know how I felt about

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Speaker 2: all that being a bank teller? How I used to think,

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Speaker 2: hope they don't shoot me, because I'll probably be on

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Speaker 2: their side. And now I'll tell a joke that if

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Speaker 2: you had to try to rob me in those days,

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Speaker 2: I would have went one for you, one for me,

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Speaker 2: one for you, one for me, and we'll all go

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Speaker 2: home happy tonight.

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Speaker 1: What hope did that bank have had? Did you get

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Speaker 1: sacked or did you quit as a talent?

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Speaker 2: Well, I had to leave with my father.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's right. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Now you said you want a real scoop, You want

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Speaker 2: a real scoop.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, give us a scoop. We're always out for a scoop, right.

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Speaker 2: I was a brilliant bank teller, and in those days

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Speaker 2: it wasn't computerized, and it was up to me every

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Speaker 2: night to balance my books. And because I was pretty

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Speaker 2: good at it, the number one teller never used to

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Speaker 2: check my money, and I started to work this out

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Speaker 2: that I was pretty well trusted. We were on the

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Speaker 2: first floor of a building right in the middle of

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Speaker 2: the city in Melbourne. In the basement was a ta

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Speaker 2: b wow. What one of myself and one of my

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Speaker 2: knock about mates that was working at the bank who

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Speaker 2: became buddies because we were two of the let's say,

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Speaker 2: working class boys, you know me and I time the

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Speaker 2: other boys would say to me, Doggie, you want to

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Speaker 2: go down and look at tis in the shops. I go,

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Speaker 2: what the hell are you talking about? Look at tis?

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Speaker 2: I've got one tie, that's it. I got one suit,

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Speaker 2: that's it. Leave me alone. Anyway, So what we would

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Speaker 2: do at lunchtime is we would sort out some bets.

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Speaker 2: I would withdraw money from my unit and would make

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Speaker 2: a plunge. Now, in the old days, tabs pay you

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Speaker 2: out at five point thirty after the day's takings, so

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Speaker 2: I couldn't get the money back win or lose in

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Speaker 2: time to balance my books. So I would have to

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Speaker 2: falsify nearly every night my bank Telly's unit or would

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Speaker 2: call it, you know, was a unit, but that would

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Speaker 2: money would go back in the safe every night. So

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Speaker 2: I would falsify in my books most nights to cover

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Speaker 2: my bedding and the next day I'd get the money

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Speaker 2: the next lunchtime, so I'd work a day behind. So

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Speaker 2: I had the A and Z basically bank rolling Doug

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Speaker 2: Morgan Punter anything.

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Speaker 1: Well, I can't see how that could have gone wrong.

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Speaker 1: If you're lost, lucky you had something to get back.

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Speaker 2: But it did lose once and I had to sign

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Speaker 2: because this can be done just in paperwork. Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: I made a withdrawal the next day once out of

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Speaker 2: my savings account to balance the books because I only

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Speaker 2: remember losing once. Yeah, I actually did lose eighty dollars

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Speaker 2: out of my own account. You're juggling, but it felt

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Speaker 2: better when it was theirs.

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Speaker 1: Well, doesn't hurt as much when you lose someone else's money,

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Speaker 1: I suppose. Okay, I want to clarify one thing before

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Speaker 1: we go into this next part. Your brother's still around, yes,

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Speaker 1: and you two are talking. I don't want to cause

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Speaker 1: a rift in the family.

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Speaker 2: He came down to see me actually on the weekend

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Speaker 2: at rudolg Bar and Pendridge.

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Speaker 1: Okay, it's not going good. Well, talk us through the

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Speaker 1: police officer that was shot and Ray Koss. What's a

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Speaker 1: factual account of it? When your brother shot Ray Koch?

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Speaker 2: Okay, I wasn't there. There was never any planning for

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Speaker 2: shooting people that was off limits. If you got to

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Speaker 2: that point, you'd failed. You'd failed our rules of engagement.

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Speaker 2: We had rules of engagement that if the job was

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Speaker 2: too hot, you walk away. His ego didn't allow that anyway.

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Speaker 2: So he drags the copper out of the car. He says,

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Speaker 2: you're a copper. He takes his car keys off and

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Speaker 2: froze into the paddock next next to and shoves the

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Speaker 2: gun into his stomach. This guy who was driving home,

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Speaker 2: innocent copper. And then my brother's got a way of

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Speaker 2: belittling people when he's got a gun in his hand.

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Speaker 2: The next time he goes there, Ray Kosh got close

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Speaker 2: to him and the gun was again in the side

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Speaker 2: of a person's body, and this time the gun goes off.

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Speaker 2: The next day he allows another copper to get close

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Speaker 2: to him. Gun again goes into the stomach of a

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Speaker 2: copper but this time the safety was on and he's

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Speaker 2: left handed, so he couldn't get the safety off. According

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Speaker 2: to the copper, this was rick hasty. Yeah, forget about

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Speaker 2: everything else. Just as a common sense person, if you

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Speaker 2: keep sticking guns against people's bodies, when does it go off?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, there's consequences and the risk. And you've said

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Speaker 1: you always looked at the bank if it's too hot,

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Speaker 1: and look at risks and try to mitigate mitigate the risk.

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Speaker 2: Let's say I've got you. You're a copper. Yeah, Let's

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Speaker 2: say I've got you. You've got no gun, Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: I've got a gun. I'd be foolish to let you

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Speaker 2: come within arms reach of me, wouldn't I.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you'd be in trouble if you did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because you're going to have a go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Just what my brother did. He used to walk up

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Speaker 2: and stick the gun in the side of which means

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Speaker 2: he went to three coppers and allowed all of them

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Speaker 2: to be within struggling range. Now, now I have a flip. Look,

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Speaker 2: I make jest of a lot of things, and sometimes

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Speaker 2: I even make jest of this. Guns are not for

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Speaker 2: wrestling over.

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Speaker 1: No, that's very true, very true.

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Speaker 2: I tell you something I'm going to tell you something

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Speaker 2: that I've never said to anybody. I asked my brother

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Speaker 2: why he had got out of the search area after

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Speaker 2: shooting Raykosh and robbing the bank, and look, I don't

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Speaker 2: know if it was accidental, you don't know. We'll never know.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't there. He didn't follow our procedures and continued

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Speaker 2: and that was the result of him not following our

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Speaker 2: procedures of engagement with police. Our rules of engagement should

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Speaker 2: not have allowed him to even be there when the

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Speaker 2: police was so hot. But he broke those rules because

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Speaker 2: his ego and he being the commander in chief or

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Speaker 2: general as he saw himself, he kept changing the rules.

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Speaker 1: Now that the rule's been the pac that you guys

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Speaker 1: had made, Yeah, we had rule, We discussed.

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Speaker 2: Everything was discussed and planned down to the we had

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Speaker 2: in the scrub. We had flash torches, not to be

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Speaker 2: used because a helicopter would see them, but for a

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Speaker 2: pickup point if it was at nighttime. We have codes,

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Speaker 2: and I'll flash you the code if I'm picking you up,

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Speaker 2: and you will flash me back a code, even to

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Speaker 2: the extent if you don't flash me back the code

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Speaker 2: and you're in a car, I won't come out because

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Speaker 2: the coppers might have you in your car. So unless

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Speaker 2: you give me the real code, I'm not even coming out,

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Speaker 2: even if I know it's you. So we had over

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Speaker 2: a thing really well regimented for the safety of everybody.

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Speaker 2: Do you think we planned robberies to get caught? We

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Speaker 2: planned robberies to go home. Now the next day he

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Speaker 2: breached your perimeter because O're planning even after shooting a

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Speaker 2: copper and you flooded the area or you or your

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Speaker 2: let's say you, well, keep it you, you and me mate,

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Speaker 2: it's you and me today. All right.

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Speaker 1: I'm happy you're getting me excited. I'd like to be

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Speaker 1: going after you guys. Yeah, okay, we've set up the well.

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Speaker 2: I think we can do a movie if I saw you.

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Speaker 2: If I draw first, don't draw yours, because I'll let

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Speaker 2: you go home, but you let me walk as well.

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Speaker 2: We'll be doing good that day. But the trouble is

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Speaker 2: you're going to shoot me. Do you know what I

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Speaker 2: planned once to make I was going to have on

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Speaker 2: the back of my bike a rack that was bulletproof

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Speaker 2: so you couldn't shoot me as I rode away.

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Speaker 1: I think ned Kelly came up with that a few

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Speaker 1: years ago or before.

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Speaker 2: But I'm not a Ned Kelly fan. I paint Ned Kelly,

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Speaker 2: but I'm not a fan because he broke my rules too.

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Speaker 2: He shot people.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you understand that, because I saw the result,

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Speaker 1: whether it was in the stick ups or in homicide

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Speaker 1: where people get shot, that's devastating.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. Now, I said to my brother, you got out

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Speaker 2: of the search area, you got to the pickup point

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Speaker 2: if it's too hot and I can't get in because

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Speaker 2: it's too many cops. Because there was a perimeter, and

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Speaker 2: he broke the perimeter, but he didn't bring he didn't

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Speaker 2: break the outside perimeter, so they had a first perimeter.

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Speaker 2: It was about ten kilometers, which was normal than those

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Speaker 2: days either or the other perimeter, yep outer perimeter was

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Speaker 2: a lot wider. And I couldn't get back in to

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Speaker 2: get him out of the pickup point. And our pickup

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Speaker 2: point was daylight the next day, because we're working in

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Speaker 2: the country. If you're hot, it's the next day. If

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Speaker 2: I can't get in because it's too hot. And I

219
00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,960
Speaker 2: actually went through a roadblock, and I was quick enough

220
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Speaker 2: to work out how to get back outside the roadblock

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Speaker 2: that i'd just driven through. That's the time for another story.

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Speaker 2: But if I don't pick him up at the pickup

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Speaker 2: point at daylight, he has to wait twenty four hours

224
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Speaker 2: because I'll come, I'll becoming I need to get you

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Speaker 2: out of there because.

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Speaker 1: We are we talking generally here?

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Speaker 2: Or is this no? This was on the last job.

228
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,720
Speaker 2: This was the last job, but the same rules followed.

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Speaker 2: The pickup point was at a certain time. If the

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Speaker 2: pickup point was not accessible, wait twenty four hours and

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Speaker 2: go a bit like in the army where they have

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Speaker 2: to be at the helicopter pickup point, you have times

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Speaker 2: to be picked up. If it doesn't happen, it's twenty

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Speaker 2: four hours, pick up twenty four hours. Because if I'm

235
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Speaker 2: not there, there's a reason why I'm not picking you up,

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Speaker 2: because it's for your safety, my safety, and everybody's safety.

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Speaker 2: I'm not coming in anyway. So I said to him

238
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Speaker 2: a few years ago, I said, so why didn't you

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Speaker 2: stay at the pickup point? Because they would have never

240
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Speaker 2: found you, and the after dark band Heed could have

241
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Speaker 2: assessed what you've done and decided what the future was.

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Speaker 2: I would have been stressing to him that it was

243
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Speaker 2: over and we walk away and it's all over, and

244
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Speaker 2: the war is over with the coppers and the chess

245
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Speaker 2: games and all that. Thank you lucky stars that we

246
00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,640
Speaker 2: can still walk away. But hopefully everything will be okay. Now,

247
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Speaker 2: do you know what he said to me, I played

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Speaker 2: by the rules. If I shoot one of you guys,

249
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Speaker 2: what does that mean I have given you right the

250
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Speaker 2: shoe me on site.

251
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Speaker 1: Well, you're going to have a ton of bricks coming

252
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Speaker 1: down on you, that's for sure.

253
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Speaker 2: Do you know what I said to him? He said, Oh,

254
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,520
Speaker 2: they would have They would have shot me. Now I

255
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Speaker 2: think that is so too faced. I said to him immediately,

256
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Speaker 2: but you shot one of them, And now you tell

257
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Speaker 2: me you're going to run because you're worried they're going

258
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Speaker 2: to shoot you. If I shot one of you guys,

259
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Speaker 2: I would take my punishment, whatever that may be.

260
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Speaker 1: The old head each lived by the sword, died by

261
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Speaker 1: the sword. If you want to start engaging in gun battles, well, I'm.

262
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Speaker 2: Certainly exactly, but I would have. If I had shot

263
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Speaker 2: one of you guys. It would have been by accident,

264
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,720
Speaker 2: maybe a warning shot that went wrong or something like that.

265
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Speaker 2: But I don't think that would have happened. And I've

266
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Speaker 2: never been really tested. I like to think that I

267
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Speaker 2: would have been good enough to avoid a full long confrontation.

268
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Speaker 2: I like to believe, And that's maybe one thing I

269
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Speaker 2: really don't want to even answer or even think about,

270
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Speaker 2: because it's horrific if I had to answer that.

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Speaker 1: It's a hard question to answer, isn't it. What would

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Speaker 1: you do if a cop if I had fronted you

273
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Speaker 1: with a gun and that was freedom or put the

274
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,560
Speaker 1: bullet in me? What you must have process that in

275
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,760
Speaker 1: your mind at some stage when you're going.

276
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Speaker 2: I think I really had belief in my strategies because

277
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Speaker 2: the strategy were going pretty good up to twenty three

278
00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:27,160
Speaker 2: jobs without a skeeric of evidence. So probably the father went.

279
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Speaker 2: You started to believe your strategies were working and that

280
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Speaker 2: you were a good tactician, and you were really playing

281
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Speaker 2: a game of chess with the coppers and they kept losing.

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Speaker 1: You said with your brother, like an ego kicked in.

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00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,480
Speaker 1: That was it a false ego or belief that you

284
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,280
Speaker 1: both might have had that, Okay, we can get away

285
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,760
Speaker 1: of this. We're out smartening them. Look they're running around

286
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Speaker 1: like headless choks.

287
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,080
Speaker 2: No, because what I knew, because he didn't see this,

288
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,880
Speaker 2: what I knew every time we started stealing a motorbike,

289
00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,920
Speaker 2: we were giving you one up. You would go motor

290
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,200
Speaker 2: like from a motorbike shop and they would usually be

291
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,160
Speaker 2: country motorbike shops. So what would that mean if if

292
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:12,680
Speaker 2: you're you're you would dealt with serial crimes in your life.

293
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, we might meet the sharpest pencil in the packers

294
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Speaker 1: as cops. But if in a lead up to a

295
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,880
Speaker 1: robbery that the motor bike gets stolen in the country town,

296
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,040
Speaker 1: then the bank gets robbed, Yeah, do it twice? We

297
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,880
Speaker 1: might start to see something three times we'll be on.

298
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I knew what he was doing before I

299
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,640
Speaker 2: decided not to do anymore. I'll be honest. I tried

300
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,360
Speaker 2: to talk him into changing our moo, not striking as

301
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,240
Speaker 2: often and not striking as the after dark banded. Because

302
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,720
Speaker 2: what people don't realize, and it's still with me today

303
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,720
Speaker 2: that I stopped. Do you think because I stopped, I

304
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:52,440
Speaker 2: was free?

305
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,320
Speaker 1: Yeah? When you when you say stop, But like this

306
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,000
Speaker 1: last job where the shooting, because he got arrested after that,

307
00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,000
Speaker 1: what were you doing looking to pick him up? You see,

308
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:00,800
Speaker 1: you're out of it?

309
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,400
Speaker 2: What happened? I said, I would never carry a gun again.

310
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,520
Speaker 2: I would never and I wasn't going to work with

311
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,400
Speaker 2: him again. But a friend of mine asked me if

312
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,080
Speaker 2: they could borrow ten thousand to put together an inter

313
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,560
Speaker 2: state truck business, and I went. Then I knew he

314
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,320
Speaker 2: was about to pull a job, and he'd been averaging

315
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,440
Speaker 2: about fifteen thousand, and I said to him, I'll give

316
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,960
Speaker 2: you assistance, but I'm not in ever again. I need

317
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:32,560
Speaker 2: ten thousand for a friend. Now, that was also false

318
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,000
Speaker 2: loyalty to my brother right through the whole thing. And

319
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:36,520
Speaker 2: then again when I look at it, that was false

320
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:40,200
Speaker 2: loyalty to my friend because I was willing to go

321
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,200
Speaker 2: back against my own decision to get ten thousand for

322
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,600
Speaker 2: not even for me, it was for somebody else.

323
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Speaker 1: So I've heard of too many old school guys like

324
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:55,240
Speaker 1: yourself that have come unstuck because of that misguided loyalty

325
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,120
Speaker 1: and getting dragged back into things because look, you, I

326
00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,680
Speaker 1: was a favor. Just do this one thing, and time

327
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,399
Speaker 1: and time again, people sitting here having a chat tell

328
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:06,040
Speaker 1: that story.

329
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:10,280
Speaker 2: You want to know the real story? Yeah, and my

330
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,560
Speaker 2: brother knows it, so I can say this. I couldn't

331
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,840
Speaker 2: actually look him in the eye at one stage and

332
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,679
Speaker 2: say he worked on me and worked on me and

333
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,560
Speaker 2: worked on me when I told him I'm out, So

334
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,400
Speaker 2: I thought just to end this continual harassment of you've

335
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,480
Speaker 2: got to do a job, you can't get out. I

336
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,760
Speaker 2: never planned the job. He told me a job, and

337
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,840
Speaker 2: a week before he did the last job, I agreed

338
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,080
Speaker 2: to go to do his job. Nobody knows this, but

339
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,159
Speaker 2: it's important because it's got a lot to do with

340
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,520
Speaker 2: peer group pressure, which is evil.

341
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,160
Speaker 1: For it's a lesson that pass on to others too.

342
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So I we take a motorbike to the area,

343
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,000
Speaker 2: same as we normally did, in the back of a

344
00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,600
Speaker 2: horse float. So you can drive all around Australia with

345
00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,679
Speaker 2: a horse float and you've got horses, you haven't got motorbikes.

346
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,600
Speaker 2: Nobody's going to suspect a horse robbing a bank. They're

347
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,680
Speaker 2: expecting if you have a motorbike on an open trailer

348
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,960
Speaker 2: that I saw that guy this morning driving a Falcon.

349
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,840
Speaker 1: GT, I say the logic of your thinking.

350
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, So he takes me the area of a job.

351
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,600
Speaker 2: The job was up at Hayfield. And this is the

352
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,800
Speaker 2: honest gospel and something I've never spoken about before, but

353
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,040
Speaker 2: I think these things are important. I knew I wasn't

354
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:31,520
Speaker 2: going to pull the job. I sabotaged the bike, didn't

355
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,800
Speaker 2: do the job right. He knows that the bank didn't

356
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,119
Speaker 2: go down. Now, in a strange way, I carry a

357
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,199
Speaker 2: bit of guilt. If I carry that job out and

358
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,000
Speaker 2: I do it safely, maybe Cosh doesn't get shot.

359
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:46,520
Speaker 1: I see the connection.

360
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I carry that and when the job doesn't

361
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,119
Speaker 2: go down, he comes back to get me and I go,

362
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,680
Speaker 2: I couldn't get the bike going. There's something wrong with it.

363
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,320
Speaker 2: I knew exactly what was wrong with it. I did it.

364
00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 2: So in a strange way, I have a little bit

365
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:00,320
Speaker 2: of guilt.

366
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 1: And say, the job where Kosh got.

367
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,400
Speaker 2: That would have gone down to.

368
00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,240
Speaker 1: That because he had to do a job when you

369
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,119
Speaker 1: guys were doing this. And then there's the after Dark Bandits.

370
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 1: You became the bandit even though there was two of you.

371
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 1: You became the most wanted person in Australia. How did

372
00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 1: that feel? No, they're not most wanted because everyone liked you.

373
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,719
Speaker 1: Most wanted by the cops because you kept robbing places.

374
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,080
Speaker 2: Well, in a strange way, I suppose I wear it

375
00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,680
Speaker 2: as a badge. Yeah, but I see this. I see

376
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,720
Speaker 2: the funny side to it that compared to a lot

377
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,800
Speaker 2: of other criminals, I'm a nervous, very non dangerous. So

378
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 2: it just shows how exaggerated the tag can be.

379
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 1: And I would imagine that it would have hit the

380
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,800
Speaker 1: media and you would have been following the media that

381
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:51,920
Speaker 1: the Australia's most wanted bandit.

382
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,840
Speaker 2: I was looking at my face on the TV, going, God,

383
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:56,879
Speaker 2: you're an ugly basard. You better grow a beard.

384
00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,000
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you this question, but I

385
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,880
Speaker 1: don't want to get anyone in the trouble. But there's

386
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,879
Speaker 1: probably statute of limitations. Did anyone else know outside you

387
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 1: and your brother?

388
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,679
Speaker 2: No, and my wife didn't know. And I'll tell you

389
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,920
Speaker 2: the truth. I discussed this. We have even friends. How

390
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 2: stupid would I be to tell a wife that I'm

391
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,960
Speaker 2: a bank robber. There's two bad angles. One have you

392
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 2: have you got children that play sport and you're worry

393
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,440
Speaker 2: about them hurting themselves playing sport.

394
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:25,359
Speaker 1: Yeah.

395
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,359
Speaker 2: Can you imagine a wife sitting at home while you're

396
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,680
Speaker 2: doing a bank Yeah, that's that'd be pretty stressful. That's

397
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 2: one reason why you don't tell them. The other reason

398
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,200
Speaker 2: is I'm a professional trained by my father and I'm

399
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 2: more akrim than most crims will ever be. But I

400
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,880
Speaker 2: choose not to rob banks now, so you don't include

401
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,400
Speaker 2: other people because this is the lesson of life for marriages,

402
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 2: break in divorce. Would you like your ex wife knowing

403
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,480
Speaker 2: you were a bank robber and asking for more alimony?

404
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,239
Speaker 1: No? And look, I've got to be on this here.

405
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,639
Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk about my ex wife. But

406
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,680
Speaker 1: from a CoP's point of view, they were ex partners.

407
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,360
Speaker 1: Let's put it just in that term. Ex partners are

408
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 1: a great source of information because vengeance can be a

409
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 1: terrible thing. And ah, we haven't got a breakthrough, but

410
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,480
Speaker 1: this relationship's broken up, and let's go have a chat

411
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 1: with one.

412
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 2: There's an angle. There's an angle.

413
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 1: Okay, your brothers, he's got to rest it in the

414
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 1: lame way by Rick Hasey the cop there, and part

415
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 1: of your agreement between that he doesn't talk and you've

416
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: got at least twelve hours to said.

417
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,479
Speaker 2: Hang on, no, there's no agreement. We had a very

418
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,400
Speaker 2: heated discussion on Sunday about this. I'm going to put

419
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 2: this to you. Yeah, Now, all the bank robbers and

420
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 2: all the crooks you've ever met, Yeah, could you imagine

421
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 2: two of them sitting down and reaching agreement where you're

422
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 2: going to lag each other after twelve hours.

423
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,359
Speaker 1: No, I was surprised that if I've missed it interpreted

424
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 1: that I thought not even going to say a word

425
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,359
Speaker 1: for twelve hours, because I've had crooks before me that

426
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,160
Speaker 1: have just sat there and just not said a word.

427
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 1: Real hard ass.

428
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 2: On Sunday, he tried to convince me that I agreed

429
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 2: to that.

430
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 1: That you give him up after twelve hours, or that

431
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 1: he gives you up after twelve Yeah.

432
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 2: So what sort of fool would I be to say

433
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: to somebody, Yeah, I'm cool with you giving me up

434
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: after twelve hours? What the stuff am I going? I've

435
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:26,679
Speaker 2: cleaned that up, haven't I? What the stuff am I

436
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: going to do with twelve hours? I haven't got a passport.

437
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 1: I'm not part of your crew, and I'm not your brothers.

438
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 1: But I would have expected that if you get caught,

439
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: I'm not saying a word about you, and if vice

440
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 1: versa like, keep your mouth shut.

441
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you the real story how the whole

442
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 2: thing was set up. There's two parts to crime, and

443
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 2: you know this, all right, we do the bank. What's

444
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 2: the second part of crime? Having alibis and getting away

445
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 2: with it. Even if you get caught, you've got to

446
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 2: beat the blue in court. Otherwise, why did you do it? Now?

447
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 2: The day he shot the copper, I drove his car

448
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 2: to his horse trainer's place. And back in those days

449
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 2: we're twins, we looked the same set up. Ali, I

450
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,879
Speaker 2: said his alibi up from the front gate. Because I

451
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 2: tooted the horn, he came out of his stable. I

452
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 2: waved to him. Even our voices are similar, and I've

453
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 2: yelled out, I'll be back later. So I've just given

454
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 2: him an alibi an hour before the bank, and the

455
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 2: bank goes down two and a half hours away. Now

456
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 2: I went home and my wife usually in the afternoon,

457
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 2: after picking up the children, and the women across the

458
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 2: road picking up the children, they would sit in her

459
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 2: lounge room and have a coffee. So I will the

460
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 2: bank was going down, I'm sitting across the road in

461
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 2: somebody else's house. Now it's like the old ad do

462
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: you want snake steak knives? As well? The house was

463
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 2: the home of a copper.

464
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're setting up the alibi.

465
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 2: That's how we worked. Yeah, And the whole point was,

466
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: and I'm going to give it to you. I don't

467
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 2: know if this would work or not. The original plan,

468
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 2: which I was willing to stick to but he didn't,

469
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 2: was that if he gets arrested and they don't shoot

470
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: him and he has not id the other brother has

471
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: probably got a bit of time to think what's going

472
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 2: to go down, right, because he's dead. It could have

473
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 2: been me that was dead, by the way, not just him.

474
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 2: She's my hand is starting to shake a little bit

475
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: talking about this. Then let's say they arrest him or

476
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 2: they arrest me. There'd be a court appearance, maybe two

477
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: days later or whatever, a bit of slap around, a

478
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 2: bit of questioning with the old phone book. If you

479
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 2: don't talk where the phone book? Right, go to court,

480
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 2: because the other twin will walk into court and say

481
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,680
Speaker 2: not a word and just sit there. Now, you if

482
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 2: you were the resting officer and you saw a twin

483
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 2: brother sitting in the audience and you're trying to pint

484
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 2: it on this bloke, you have to pint it on

485
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 2: the correct brother in the right bank. Not as a necessory,

486
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 2: but you have to put the right brother in the bank.

487
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, you asked me the question. I can see the complications.

488
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 1: I saw it in myin career. I won't mention the

489
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: actual murder, but the murder where some twins were good

490
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 1: persons of interest for it. Then they cause a lot

491
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: of problems by the fact that they were identical identical twins.

492
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 2: Well, do you know what happened once he got arrested.

493
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 2: Let's just say he was helping it in their investigation.

494
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: Co operating.

495
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 2: I think, yeah. But anyway, so we're going to now

496
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 2: try and beat it in court because you have to pinpointous.

497
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,880
Speaker 2: Now you know that that's going to be rather difficult.

498
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: Well, you've just got to be on reasonable doubt and

499
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: you walk free.

500
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 2: Now what happened was because he was, let's say, making

501
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 2: enough confessions, and the solicitor came in the next day.

502
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 2: He said, he see what's going down. He said, you

503
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 2: do realize that he's cooperated so much that you're now

504
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: the bad boy. You know what they said to him.

505
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 2: If you make the statements and plead guilty, it won't

506
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 2: come out in court and you'll be able to sell

507
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 2: a movie. You're laughing.

508
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: I'm laughing. I think, if they're going to come up

509
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: with something, come up with something better than that. But

510
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 1: I understand.

511
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, they got him his ego, they got him.

512
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: Well, I've always said in an interview room, you play

513
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: the person's weakness or you exploit that weakness. Now, if ego,

514
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: and I'm talking generally here, I'm not saying that's Pete's thing,

515
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: but if that's ego that sometimes, jeez, you are a good,

516
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 1: good bank robber. You've got the way of all these

517
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: And then oh, I actually did more. Yeah, you play

518
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: the people's.

519
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 2: Well he did. He told them, he told them about

520
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 2: a job that we did as a two man job.

521
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 2: They didn't know about it. Now, so what should have

522
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 2: happened is we should have been a really interesting court battle,

523
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 2: because a court batter gives you power with let's say,

524
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 2: a plea bargain.

525
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: Well, that's true. If it's a week a case, it's

526
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: easier to bargain.

527
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, my solicitor said straight away, he's given him

528
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: enough evidence that they won't get you on twenty five

529
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: if you fight it. But they're going to give you

530
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: ten years for the first one because they're not going

531
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: to let you go, he said, So you've got nowhere

532
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 2: to go. Now. The next step was the fact that

533
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: these statements were so strong and you know, I'm not

534
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: going to say you'll fit people up, but if you

535
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 2: know the story, because he's given you so much information,

536
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 2: you can then go to other people and say, where

537
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 2: was Doug on a certain night because his brother says

538
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 2: it was over here. They would have went to my

539
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: wife and said, on the night of such and such

540
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,479
Speaker 2: does your brother or sorry, was your husband home? And

541
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: she would have said no, they built houses in the

542
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: country and he goes away for a week at a time.

543
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: So I was fitted because my wife goes, oh, no,

544
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 2: he wasn't home that night.

545
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: How did that make you feel like we're pissed off

546
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: with your brother?

547
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: No, I'm a very understanding person. I'm not even angry

548
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 2: at my brother. You have to take responsibility because if

549
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 2: you keep blaming other people for your life, that means

550
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 2: you've got no control.

551
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: Well, Doug, that answers a lot to me, because I

552
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 1: was looking at your store and your brother's story, and

553
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 1: I thought, oh God, we're going to have an hour

554
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 1: of you going that doggie did this, he did that,

555
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Yeah, the way I think a lot

556
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: of people would react. But I understand where you're coming

557
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 1: from and that you accept your responsibilities. You're not going

558
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 1: to judge others. Everyone's different, so I do get an

559
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: understanding of what you're saying.

560
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 2: The greatest moment would be in my life if my

561
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: brother would just accept what he did and stop trying

562
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 2: to script the truth to hide his failures in life,

563
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 2: because my life had a lot of failures. The robberies,

564
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 2: they're failures. You know what I really think about bank

565
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 2: robbers and people in prison. I don't like you. I

566
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 2: really don't like you. I knocked around with some of

567
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: the heaviest criminals in Victoria's history, and I played tennis

568
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: with them on a tennis court. We're tennis players. I

569
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 2: don't like what you did off this court. While we're

570
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: on this court, we'll play tennis, but we will not

571
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: be friends off this court.

572
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: It makes sense. And the conversation we had the other day,

573
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: you were talking about criminals and even the way you

574
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: look at there's criminals that commit crime to make money

575
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: for money, crime for money. Then there's criminals that commit

576
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: crimes of violence, of vengeance and all the other things

577
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: that may evate people that commit horrendous crimes, and you

578
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: deviate between those.

579
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: I try to explain it to people. I'm mixed with

580
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 2: Victoria's worse or in the jail with Victoria's worst sex

581
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 2: offenders and child molesters and all sorts of things. I said,

582
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: how did I get here?

583
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: What? Well?

584
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: I'm not this is not natural for me.

585
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: That was your first stint inside? Yes, how were you arrested?

586
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 1: When were you arrested? And what were you convicted of?

587
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: I was convicted of about twenty four to twenty five

588
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 2: armed robberies, use of a firearm, stealing motor cars. I

589
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 2: was arrested unarmed by about forty coppers. I didn't surrender.

590
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 2: I ran down a laneway off a beach and ran

591
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: into the side of a divvy van right. They jumped

592
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: on me like a rugby scrum NRL style Up there.

593
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 2: All I could hear was grab the bag. Grab the bag,

594
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 2: there's probably a gun in it. And all I can

595
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 2: think of while I'm lying under all these coppers was

596
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: the grab the gun. It's another oswell. And then I

597
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: was handcuffed to two coppers. They take me back to

598
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: Frankstin police station. They were told not to talk to me.

599
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: I kept talking to one of them because he was

600
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 2: shaking so badly and he wouldn't talk to me, and

601
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 2: I said, look, mate, I knowin not thatw to talk

602
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 2: to me, but were just settled down. I'm supposed to

603
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 2: be the one that's nervous, so it.

604
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: Was nerves, not anger who was shaking you reckon.

605
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 2: I don't know what and you know what I was thinking.

606
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: And this is how stupid I am. There was a

607
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 2: window behind me, and I'm sitting on a desk and

608
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: as hard against the window. I was seen it myself.

609
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 2: Like in the movies, you see all sorts of things.

610
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 2: I thought, I wonder what happens if I spring up

611
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: and I throw myself out through the window. Will the

612
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: cuffs come off before I hit the ground?

613
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: Well? Probably not? Probably not.

614
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: Well that's the conclusion I reached before I sprang out

615
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: through the window backwards. Yeah, and look, I make light

616
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: of it. This is how I went through my jail.

617
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: I do like the fact that, like, jail's a very

618
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: personal experience, and everyone's experience in jail is a little

619
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: bit different. But I haven't heard your winge about it.

620
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: You've got a smile on your face, and there's horrific

621
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: things that happen in jail, as you know better than

622
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: I do.

623
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: But I'll tell you something. Right here, I'll tell you

624
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 2: how horrific it is. See that there? Can you see

625
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 2: the cross?

626
00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: It's a cross, is it?

627
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:00,239
Speaker 2: Yeah?

628
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: Ye?

629
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 2: That has cut out of a window bar. And that's

630
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: for the eight young fellas that hung themselves because they

631
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: couldn't handle the brutality from prison guards, screws, or prisoners

632
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 2: trying to rape them. I wear that in honor of

633
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 2: those boys.

634
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: So your brother did time in the same prison.

635
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 2: Yes, and there was talk that was going to get

636
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: him right. And when I walked in and went into

637
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: the yard, and they were animal yards like cattle yards

638
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 2: in those days, I looked around and went, there's seventy

639
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 2: people that I don't know, even my brother. Would be

640
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,959
Speaker 2: better to have him on my side if something's going

641
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 2: to go down. So he was the enemy. That was

642
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 2: Watterson as bad as the unknown enemy. So can you

643
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 2: now understand I'm not worried about what you have done.

644
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 2: I'm worried about the next twelve years.

645
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

646
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 2: But what I underestimated or overestimated was during that twelve

647
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: years he would never back me up.

648
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: I'm confused. We should do a relationship podcast about you

649
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: and your brother, because you've still you both built houses together,

650
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: rob banks and tabs together. And then even after all

651
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: this shit, after you got out of Joe, you went

652
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: back in the building together.

653
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: Because I look, should I be angry because his level

654
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 2: of my expectations was wrong?

655
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: No, And you answered that very well before. I do

656
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: understand where you're coming from. I'm just a little bit confused.

657
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: You're a very forgiving, forgiving man.

658
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: Well I didn't say I forgive. I understand. Yeah, yeah,

659
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: but I would process it or maybe more disappointment.

660
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, fair cool. So your art you're saying you'd

661
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: already broken away from the life of crime when you

662
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: went in. So when you're doing your time, you're ten

663
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: and a half years or twelve, subject to debate. Let's go,

664
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: we'll add another year.

665
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 2: Yep, we'll probably just served it.

666
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: You might go back in after this. I don't think

667
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: I can sense you. I'd try. You were always you

668
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 1: weren't going to go back to the life of crime.

669
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: It wasn't sort of thinking. So it wasn't a watershed

670
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: moment in the jail that you thought, no, this life's

671
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: not for me. You knew at the moment you walked in.

672
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 2: I'll give you something. Yeah, this is a word of

673
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 2: advice to everybody in the world, run by Dougie's rules.

674
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 2: When you make a decision and you feel your weakening

675
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 2: on that decision, stand up and look in the mirror

676
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 2: and you ask yourself, yes, perhaps I can lie to

677
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 2: other people, but what sort of man lies to himself?

678
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: So if you make a decision, you know it's right.

679
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 2: I'll be honest. Three or four years after I was out,

680
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: was really hard pushing, and it's a tough life coming

681
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 2: out of twelve years of jail and having to settle

682
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 2: back down to earning a living. And I had a

683
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: moment where one night I sat there and thought about

684
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 2: the future and I was trying to make a decision

685
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 2: do I continue on this righteous path? And I said,

686
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 2: it's pretty tough, And then I went, try a bit harder, Dougie,

687
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 2: try a bit harder, because I'm not going to lie

688
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 2: to myself. And that's it. Every time it gets tough,

689
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 2: go back to what you believe was the correct decision,

690
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: and don't lie to yourself. And it was the right decision.

691
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: I go and watch my grandchildren play football.

692
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: Now, yeah, well, you know I'm looking at you, and

693
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 1: you don't look like you're a man. That's been broken

694
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: by life. There's a lot of positive, positive vibes.

695
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 2: You know, they're saying the army makes and breaks.

696
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

697
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: I had so much adventure and fun in jail. I

698
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: got shot at during an escape attempt. You know. The

699
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,919
Speaker 2: screw came down to my cell and haste vision that night,

700
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: knocked on the trap and said, Dougie, am I okay?

701
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 2: And at first I thought what's he talking about? Then

702
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 2: I got it. Our family will police you. He might

703
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 2: think I'll retaliate in twelve years time.

704
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: Ah, I see where you're coming from.

705
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, we used to sit down years later and laugh

706
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 2: about that day.

707
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: So tell us about because you do meet up with

708
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: a lot of the corrective, not a lot that you

709
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: have socialized. I suppose having a beer with former creative

710
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 1: services officers, because what are you doing at the now

711
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: the new Pentridge jail or it's not a jar anymore,

712
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: it's a you describe it the bar.

713
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 2: Well, what I like to think is on educating people

714
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: on the brutality what you're going to expect if you

715
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 2: cross the blue line. I like to call it the

716
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: blue line that you cross, or the cost of crime.

717
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 2: There's a cost of crime to both sides. I guarantee

718
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: you've had the cost of crime.

719
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so you.

720
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 2: Know what I'm talking about. Yeah, there's not really a

721
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 2: good story anywhere on either side because prison officers became depressed,

722
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 2: they became oken, marriages, all sorts of things because of

723
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 2: the stress of the situation. I went out with a

724
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 2: prison officer for three years, ten years after I got

725
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 2: out of jail, and I learned about what it was

726
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 2: like for those guys. She wasn't a guy, she was

727
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 2: a woman.

728
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: But I mean, yeah, you run with that.

729
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 2: This is show you. I'll show your photos later. And

730
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 2: I learn a lot about the jail from the other side,

731
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 2: about all the heavies that were giving people up. I

732
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: have a great understanding for the overall picture. Now as

733
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 2: far as have you forgotten the question you asked me

734
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: that I have, Oh what do I do with brew

735
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 2: dog at the jar? It's a very good platform to

736
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 2: raise what the price is of crime. If I want

737
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 2: to talk about car racing, well let's do it while

738
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 2: we watch Ellen Moffatt or Peter Brock or whatever. So

739
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: let's take it to where we have some feeling for it,

740
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: and you can come and visit me and you about

741
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 2: what it's really like and what the cost will be.

742
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 2: So there in that situation, I've bumped into a lot

743
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 2: of ex prison officers and they all want to put

744
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: their arm around me, and I just jested with them,

745
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 2: and I give them the same lip. I had a

746
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: governor that punished me very severely once and put me

747
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 2: in Haite Division, and they were taking photos of us,

748
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 2: and I had my arm around his shoulder like you

749
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 2: normally do in the old photos with and I was

750
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 2: whispering in his ear when everybody was too far away

751
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 2: to here, I go, Remember that jelly night. You never

752
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: got me? So I like to give people a slap,

753
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 2: even forty years later. And he laughed. He said, yeah,

754
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: I know, and we both had a laugh about it.

755
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: But not everyone would be capable of that. I would

756
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: imagine there's a lot of people that there's a resistance

757
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: as a blue and the green, and people are.

758
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 2: Sure, well, I like to say this, and you'll look

759
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 2: because you're you're a understanding because you've been in the

760
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 2: We're not much different really, because we both understand. Right now,

761
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 2: I'd like to say to people, why would I be

762
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 2: angry at a copper? I don't remember coppers coming to

763
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 2: my house and dragging me into a bank and making

764
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 2: me rob it. Now I can go the other way

765
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 2: because my brother told me that I would not come

766
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 2: in I would be heavily armed. The armed robbery squad

767
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: held my family hostage in my house for four days.

768
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 2: My three and five year old son and daughter had

769
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 2: to sit in the bathroom all day, and I sometimes

770
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: wonder if they were old enough to comprehend that if

771
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 2: I walk through that door, I was going to be shot.

772
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 2: So there's always two sides.

773
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 1: So yeah, and I understand it would have been an

774
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 1: intense situation when the cops are after you, exactly.

775
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: But I don't give them much other avenue. So who's

776
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 2: responsible for what my children went through?

777
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: Well, you do impress me in the fact that you

778
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: take ownership all the stuff when you look back at

779
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 1: all the places that were robbed. I know and speaking

780
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: to other people that bank robbers from the past didn't

781
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 1: fully appreciate the psychological damage. You walk out. You haven't

782
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 1: showed anyone. You think, oh, well, I'm not a bad person.

783
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 2: Well do you reflate the damage is done?

784
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, you reflect on that.

785
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 2: So the actual stress is perceived stress. But guess what

786
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 2: that is real. That is far more damaging. I'll tell

787
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 2: you a story from my side. A young fella that

788
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 2: believed he was going to be beaten up the next

789
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 2: day by a heavy and jail was so stressed he

790
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: went to his cell with no mother to turn to,

791
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 2: no phone call to talk to his brother or his

792
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 2: sister or his father. The stress of being beaten up

793
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 2: and only by hand, he hung himself that night. It's

794
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 2: the perceived situation that stresses people. I jokingly say. Now,

795
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,399
Speaker 2: people say, could you rob a bank? I go, I could.

796
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: I'll tell you how I do it. I will do

797
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 2: the job. Let's say jobs should still be done because

798
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 2: we've got to go back to that era. I will

799
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 2: do the job. And as I walk through the door,

800
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 2: as I'm leaving with the cash, I would throw my

801
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 2: water pistol back over my head and go, I'm sorry,

802
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 2: but it was just a water pistol. Don't stress. I'm

803
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:36,720
Speaker 2: gone because now I understand the stress. But I didn't

804
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 2: perceive that stress because you know, I'm jovial about even

805
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 2: if I was robbed. So therefore I believed all army soldiers, Navy,

806
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 2: Air Force, police, bank tellers are trained. What I didn't

807
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: realize is they all have different personalities and levels of stress.

808
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 2: There's probably police officers that suffer worse than me. Oh

809
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 2: absolutely more. I don't suffer because I accept all this

810
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: and so you can't hurt me. Nobody in the world

811
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 2: can hurt me. I carry the demons. I'm my worst critic.

812
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 1: Well, you made that point earlier on that. You know,

813
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: how's your life or judge of in the last ten

814
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: seconds of your life and look back and can you

815
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 1: face yourself in the mirror and done everything I can?

816
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: What's a message you'd give for young and like, I

817
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 1: don't think no matter what. Maybe there's a retro thing.

818
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: The music comes back in fashion, clothing comes back in fashion.

819
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: Maybe robberies and banks come back in fashion. I do

820
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: so that'd be crazy, but I doubt it. But the

821
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: currency of crime now there's different type of crime. And

822
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 1: then back in the day and back twenty years ago.

823
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: But what message would you give to know young blake

824
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 1: or girls these days that think it's sclamorous a life

825
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: of crime and where the consequences might be you end

826
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,760
Speaker 1: up in prison or sorry, okry the guilt.

827
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,879
Speaker 2: Over the last thirty five years, I've trained many, many

828
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 2: young men as apprentices. All of them talk to me

829
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 2: with total freedom because they know who I am. There

830
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 2: was one apprentice that was selling party drugs pills, and

831
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 2: he came to me one day. I know what they're doing,

832
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to condemn them. It's not my

833
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 2: role to condemn people. I will try and point out

834
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 2: what you'll get yourself into. I won't condemn you, and

835
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 2: I won't tell you what you can do with your life.

836
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 2: For all I know you're a bad person, but that's

837
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:41,439
Speaker 2: your business. Now. This guy he comes to me on

838
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,760
Speaker 2: I think it was a Monday, and he said, oh, look,

839
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: on a Friday night he met with three guys with

840
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,959
Speaker 2: one thousand dollars for some pills for the week under sell.

841
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 2: And he said, but what happened was they had machetes.

842
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: And this is about ten years back, so machetes have

843
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 2: been around for a while. They are very intimidating piece

844
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 2: of equipment. Now, he said, what they did was they

845
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 2: took my thousand dollars and think of many pills. And

846
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 2: I said, well, you're about to learn the lesson of crime.

847
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 2: What happens in crime. You can't control this direction. What

848
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 2: will happen is you have to make a decision. Now,

849
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 2: are you going to take the next step and rearrange

850
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 2: with somebody else to meet these guys and you'll turn

851
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 2: up with a bigger machete And then what they'll do

852
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: is they will arrange get back at you with a

853
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,720
Speaker 2: bigger machete, which might be a gun. So so today

854
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 2: I want you to think about if you're in or

855
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,879
Speaker 2: you're out. He came back to me at three point thirty.

856
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 2: He said, Dug, I'm out. I said, I'm very happy

857
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 2: for you. You made the right decision. Now, what happens

858
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,720
Speaker 2: is young people they start selling a bit of drugs

859
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 2: so they don't have to pay for their drugs. What

860
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 2: they don't realize is you slowly get in deeper and

861
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 2: deeper and deeper, and I'm going to use the great

862
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 2: Carl Williams. Williams tried to use the press to make

863
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 2: some drugs and make some money.

864
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: He's pill press.

865
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 2: What happened was they found out and they shot him.

866
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 2: Carle probably asked himself, when Carl was doing the drugs

867
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 2: at that stage, he didn't perceive himself as being a killer.

868
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: You agree, yeah, yeah, I think this is a reasonable

869
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: way of describing it.

870
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:31,879
Speaker 2: Then they shot him, so he made a decision to retaliate.

871
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 2: If Carl Williams walks away when he was shot, a

872
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 2: lot of people don't die. But what happens in crime,

873
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 2: it keeps escalating out of control. Like my brother when

874
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:48,720
Speaker 2: his ego escalated him out of control and he shoots

875
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 2: Ray Kosh. It's not this crime or that crime or

876
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 2: that crime. It happens. That's what happens in crime. You

877
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 2: lose control and you maybe stupidly go to the next level.

878
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 2: That's it. That's what you have to tell young people.

879
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's I haven't heard it spoken that way,

880
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 1: but that's a good breakdown of of course, in their

881
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 1: detail of how it can escalate, and before you know it,

882
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 1: you're in deeper than you care to be and the

883
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: consequences are pretty heavy. Look, I will wrap up on

884
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: that note. Just the stuff you do with your ard,

885
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: if people want to reach out to you, and the

886
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 1: type of things. What are you doing these days?

887
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 2: Well, probably the only important thing some of the money

888
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 2: that I raised from art. I don't know if you

889
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 2: can see that. That's a bluestone key ring with Ned

890
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:41,359
Speaker 2: Kelly painted on it.

891
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 1: Okay, yep, now.

892
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 2: We sell these things. I still I'm going back working

893
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,479
Speaker 2: with the Salvos and we'll be selling them for about

894
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 2: fifteen dollars and five dollars we'll go to the guys

895
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 2: who make them, five dollars will go to the guys

896
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 2: who sell them, and five dollars will go to the Salvos.

897
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 2: And I've got a deal with one of the chaplains

898
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 2: that they'll tell me things that people getting out of

899
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 2: young people getting out of jail require to set their

900
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 2: lives up. So what I want to do is spend

901
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: some time raising money and going back to mentoring, because

902
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 2: I've done mentoring with prisons before and it's like, we

903
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 2: can all be a show pony, or we can all

904
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 2: do things for the things that you do that are

905
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 2: positive will give your life some value. I seek value

906
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 2: in my life.

907
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: I can understand that you look like you're enjoying your life.

908
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 1: Where can people reach out to you if they want

909
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: to contact with you.

910
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 2: Well, if they go to brew Dog Pub at Pentries

911
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 2: Jail and they ask for Doug, they'll be told, no,

912
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 2: he's not here today, or he is here today. But

913
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 2: I'm retired. So in theory, I'm supposed to be the

914
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 2: jail artist and his story and every day after three o'clock, okay,

915
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 2: but sometimes I get lazy.

916
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: Well, we all need a day off every now and then, Doug,

917
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: I've enjoyed the enjoyed the chat. Thanks for making the

918
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 1: effort and giving this an insight into a world that

919
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 1: most of us don't get to sea or fully understand.

920
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: So that's what I like to do on the podcast.

921
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 1: That's what we've been trying to do for years. Let

922
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 1: people fully understand what goes on in the world of crime,

923
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 1: because there's this misconception. But people are now, okay, this

924
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: is a real live robber and we've just had a

925
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: sit down chat and talking to an next cop who

926
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: would have thought so. I appreciate you, honestly, people get

927
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:28,919
Speaker 1: to understand the world.

928
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 2: You don't seem a bad blake for a copper.

929
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: You're all right for an arm Robert too.

930
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 2: That's been quoted in books.

931
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: Actually fair core. All right, Well, thank you very much,

932
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 1: and yeah, we'll stay in touch.

933
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 2: And one last thing, and you've got to think about this.

934
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: Okay.

935
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 2: I will never know if I've ever helped anybody, but

936
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. I try.

937
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 1: I like your attitude on things. Do I can see

938
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: why you made it through some hard times and come

939
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,479
Speaker 1: out the other end good stuff. Take care in the back.

940
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 2: Never never, anti bas