1 00:00:03,900 --> 00:00:07,440 Jennifer Duke: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business interview. I'm Jennifer Duke. 2 00:00:07,710 --> 00:00:11,039 Jennifer Duke: This is a pretty remarkable story. One minute you're an 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:15,869 Jennifer Duke: Australian startup creating 3D virtual models for the Metaverse. The next, 4 00:00:15,870 --> 00:00:19,290 Jennifer Duke: tech giant Apple is using your technology in the demonstration 5 00:00:19,290 --> 00:00:23,130 Jennifer Duke: of its Vision Pro virtual reality headset. It's exactly what 6 00:00:23,130 --> 00:00:25,829 Jennifer Duke: happened to JigSpace whose tech was featured in the Apple 7 00:00:25,829 --> 00:00:29,070 Jennifer Duke: presentation marking a major step forward, not just for the 8 00:00:29,070 --> 00:00:33,239 Jennifer Duke: technology but the JigSpace business. Zac Duff is the Co-Founder 9 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,879 Jennifer Duke: and CEO of JigSpace. Zac, welcome to Fear and Greed. 10 00:00:36,869 --> 00:00:37,409 Zac Duff: Thanks, Jen. It's great to be here. 11 00:00:38,940 --> 00:00:42,060 Jennifer Duke: So firstly, can you walk me through exactly what JigSpace does? 12 00:00:42,930 --> 00:00:50,009 Zac Duff: So JigSpace is a 3D presentation platform. It empowers teams to easily communicate 13 00:00:50,009 --> 00:00:54,059 Zac Duff: big ideas in augmented reality. So we have businesses ranging 14 00:00:54,060 --> 00:00:58,920 Zac Duff: from industrial giants like PepsiCo, Medtronic, Thermo Fisher, all the 15 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,340 Zac Duff: way down to niche manufacturers, and they're bringing their complex 16 00:01:02,340 --> 00:01:06,029 Zac Duff: products to market using Jigs, so it makes it easier 17 00:01:06,030 --> 00:01:11,098 Zac Duff: to understand and access their product knowledge and information, and 18 00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:13,620 Zac Duff: it kind of gets their customers to that aha moment 19 00:01:13,620 --> 00:01:18,270 Zac Duff: quicker. And they're using that in sales, marketing, product training, 20 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:19,590 Zac Duff: those kind of places. 21 00:01:20,190 --> 00:01:22,139 Jennifer Duke: And I know I mentioned Apple right at the beginning, 22 00:01:22,139 --> 00:01:24,420 Jennifer Duke: but before we get to that, can you explain a 23 00:01:24,420 --> 00:01:26,489 Jennifer Duke: little bit more in detail about what sort of companies 24 00:01:26,490 --> 00:01:29,010 Jennifer Duke: have been using your technology and how they're using those 25 00:01:29,010 --> 00:01:30,599 Jennifer Duke: Jigs to do that communication piece? 26 00:01:31,559 --> 00:01:34,500 Zac Duff: Yeah, so some of the companies we've been working with 27 00:01:34,500 --> 00:01:40,380 Zac Duff: now for a little while are Medtronic, Panasonic, PepsiCo, Thermo Fisher. 28 00:01:40,380 --> 00:01:45,030 Zac Duff: So they're companies that are selling complex, technical, expensive products 29 00:01:45,389 --> 00:01:48,539 Zac Duff: that are hard to communicate or difficult to explain. And 30 00:01:48,540 --> 00:01:51,480 Zac Duff: there's also a really high transaction value on that product. 31 00:01:51,870 --> 00:01:56,370 Zac Duff: So if you think about, say, manufacturing automation, so there's 32 00:01:56,370 --> 00:02:00,240 Zac Duff: a lab automation company in the UK called Automata. They 33 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,780 Zac Duff: sell medical lab fit-outs. So they'll go into a lab, 34 00:02:03,780 --> 00:02:06,330 Zac Duff: and medical labs haven't changed in a hundred years, so 35 00:02:06,330 --> 00:02:09,180 Zac Duff: it's a person standing at a desk dealing with a 36 00:02:09,180 --> 00:02:11,310 Zac Duff: sample here, moving along, putting it in a new machine. 37 00:02:11,310 --> 00:02:14,429 Zac Duff: It's been exactly the same. So when COVID hit, they 38 00:02:14,429 --> 00:02:18,719 Zac Duff: started to sell their medical lab kind of fit-outs, this 39 00:02:18,719 --> 00:02:22,199 Zac Duff: automation with a robot arm and this whole really interesting 40 00:02:22,199 --> 00:02:24,600 Zac Duff: bench they'd created that would allow them to connect software 41 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,120 Zac Duff: and hardware together. To sell that, I mean, you can 42 00:02:27,419 --> 00:02:29,639 Zac Duff: even hear with the explanation I'm giving of it, it's 43 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,160 Zac Duff: a pretty complex thing and to visualise it and to 44 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,918 Zac Duff: put that into a lab is a really complex process. 45 00:02:35,250 --> 00:02:38,730 Zac Duff: That sales cycle is six months or more. So they're 46 00:02:38,730 --> 00:02:42,750 Zac Duff: using Jig in their sales process and in their communication 47 00:02:42,750 --> 00:02:45,510 Zac Duff: with their customer to really shorten that time. So they're 48 00:02:45,510 --> 00:02:48,750 Zac Duff: reducing their sales cycle by 75%. So they're down to 49 00:02:48,750 --> 00:02:52,739 Zac Duff: six weeks with a sale because not only can they 50 00:02:52,830 --> 00:02:55,799 Zac Duff: explain it and show it in 3D with augmented reality, they 51 00:02:55,799 --> 00:02:59,610 Zac Duff: can place it right there in the customer's lab and they 52 00:02:59,699 --> 00:03:01,680 Zac Duff: can show what the new layout will be, how the 53 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,440 Zac Duff: robot will work. They'll show how it interacts with their 54 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,710 Zac Duff: existing equipment. They can then when they have a change 55 00:03:07,710 --> 00:03:11,369 Zac Duff: request in that process, rather than taking the 20 days 56 00:03:11,370 --> 00:03:13,830 Zac Duff: that it used to take to turn around a change 57 00:03:13,830 --> 00:03:16,500 Zac Duff: request in that kind of sales process, they can now 58 00:03:16,500 --> 00:03:19,590 Zac Duff: do it 15 minutes after the phone call. So they're 59 00:03:19,590 --> 00:03:23,460 Zac Duff: just dramatically shortening the time it takes to get people 60 00:03:23,460 --> 00:03:25,650 Zac Duff: to that point where they go, "Yep, great. I understand this. 61 00:03:25,710 --> 00:03:26,609 Zac Duff: Let's move forward." 62 00:03:27,300 --> 00:03:29,910 Jennifer Duke: That's incredible. And now I guess onto the bit that 63 00:03:29,910 --> 00:03:32,039 Jennifer Duke: we're all really eager to hear about as well as 64 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,409 Jennifer Duke: see is Apple. And when you found out that Apple 65 00:03:34,410 --> 00:03:37,740 Jennifer Duke: was going to be using JigSpace in its demonstration, what was 66 00:03:37,740 --> 00:03:40,080 Jennifer Duke: that moment like and when about did you find out? 67 00:03:40,830 --> 00:03:44,250 Zac Duff: It's pretty amazing. We were very fortunate to get tickets 68 00:03:44,610 --> 00:03:48,569 Zac Duff: to WWDC (Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference) to see it, and it's a pretty amazing 69 00:03:48,570 --> 00:03:51,059 Zac Duff: moment to see your stuff and the work that you 70 00:03:51,059 --> 00:03:55,529 Zac Duff: do on the biggest stage. So it's pretty surreal. The 71 00:03:55,530 --> 00:03:58,980 Zac Duff: thing I love about it though is the vision and 72 00:03:58,980 --> 00:04:01,590 Zac Duff: the breadth the vision for this technology and what it 73 00:04:01,590 --> 00:04:05,070 Zac Duff: means for our customers, is crazy. And to be aligned 74 00:04:05,070 --> 00:04:07,979 Zac Duff: with what Apple are doing is a really big thing 75 00:04:07,980 --> 00:04:10,709 Zac Duff: for us. But it's also, the fact is we're the 76 00:04:10,709 --> 00:04:12,990 Zac Duff: best in the world at this and so they want 77 00:04:12,990 --> 00:04:15,180 Zac Duff: to work with the best and that's why we're in 78 00:04:15,180 --> 00:04:15,840 Zac Duff: those places. 79 00:04:16,500 --> 00:04:19,260 Jennifer Duke: Definitely, and Vision Pro is one of those much more 80 00:04:19,260 --> 00:04:21,900 Jennifer Duke: talked about presentations that we've heard of in a long 81 00:04:21,900 --> 00:04:24,419 Jennifer Duke: time. What did that mean for you and your business 82 00:04:24,420 --> 00:04:25,199 Jennifer Duke: in that moment? 83 00:04:27,420 --> 00:04:31,320 Zac Duff: It's a great marketing platform. Quite a few people watch that. 84 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,550 Zac Duff: I think there's like 30 million views on it through 85 00:04:35,580 --> 00:04:38,339 Zac Duff: various platforms. So there was a lot of eyeballs on that. 86 00:04:38,820 --> 00:04:41,909 Zac Duff: And we were working with one of our partners who's 87 00:04:41,910 --> 00:04:45,270 Zac Duff: the Alfa Romeo F1 team. So we've been working with them 88 00:04:45,270 --> 00:04:48,990 Zac Duff: for a couple of years and the Jig that we showed, 89 00:04:48,990 --> 00:04:53,339 Zac Duff: the 3D presentation was of their car and that was 90 00:04:53,339 --> 00:04:57,269 Zac Duff: really cool. So visually it's a really impressive piece and 91 00:04:57,270 --> 00:05:00,210 Zac Duff: that means that all the articles that come out about 92 00:05:00,210 --> 00:05:02,070 Zac Duff: the Vision Pro, they want to use the F1 car 93 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,299 Zac Duff: as the key visual. So that's been really cool. But 94 00:05:06,299 --> 00:05:08,820 Zac Duff: it also means our customers have come to us and 95 00:05:08,820 --> 00:05:11,099 Zac Duff: said, "Well, we saw you there. How do we get in? 96 00:05:11,700 --> 00:05:14,039 Zac Duff: We want to have deeper integration with what you're doing 97 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,289 Zac Duff: so that we can use this when it comes out." 98 00:05:16,559 --> 00:05:19,200 Zac Duff: And it means that investors are reaching out to us more. 99 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,010 Zac Duff: So it's really, it's the effect we wanted and we 100 00:05:23,010 --> 00:05:26,580 Zac Duff: put a lot of effort into making that very smooth. 101 00:05:26,580 --> 00:05:29,400 Zac Duff: We update our website the moment it happened, there was 102 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:30,690 Zac Duff: a lot of stuff that went into it. 103 00:05:31,140 --> 00:05:32,969 Jennifer Duke: Stay with me, Zac. We'll be back in a minute. 104 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:44,159 Jennifer Duke: I'm talking to Zac Duff, Co-Founder and CEO of JigSpace. Do you 105 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,520 Jennifer Duke: see applications in the future that are much more consumer- based? 106 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,080 Jennifer Duke: Because obviously at the moment you're doing a lot of 107 00:05:49,260 --> 00:05:52,170 Jennifer Duke: commercial industrial and there's a very clear use case there. 108 00:05:52,678 --> 00:05:55,979 Jennifer Duke: When will lots of Aussies be able to see the Jigs? 109 00:05:56,969 --> 00:06:00,450 Zac Duff: Well, you can use it right now. There's a free 110 00:06:00,450 --> 00:06:03,240 Zac Duff: app and it is used in schools a lot. So 111 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,840 Zac Duff: there is, in the early days actually, where Jig came from, 112 00:06:07,860 --> 00:06:10,560 Zac Duff: I had been making video games for about 10 years 113 00:06:10,589 --> 00:06:13,080 Zac Duff: and I came back to Australia and wanted to teach 114 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,350 Zac Duff: game design. So I was teaching in a college, had 115 00:06:16,350 --> 00:06:19,830 Zac Duff: distance education students, they couldn't come into a school to 116 00:06:19,830 --> 00:06:22,618 Zac Duff: learn and their engagement rates drop off dramatically, like in 117 00:06:22,620 --> 00:06:24,570 Zac Duff: the first three weeks. If you don't get them engaged, 118 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:29,428 Zac Duff: it's really hard to re-engage. So we created a live 119 00:06:29,428 --> 00:06:32,759 Zac Duff: teaching platform in virtual reality. It was one of the 120 00:06:32,759 --> 00:06:35,999 Zac Duff: first in the world of its kind, but in that platform, 121 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,400 Zac Duff: this beautiful environment, students could be there, they could be 122 00:06:38,460 --> 00:06:40,680 Zac Duff: talking to each other, a teacher up the front with 123 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,130 Zac Duff: a big screen behind them, and they had their own virtual computer, 124 00:06:44,130 --> 00:06:46,530 Zac Duff: we called a slate that they could do their coursework on. 125 00:06:46,650 --> 00:06:48,868 Zac Duff: But all of the knowledge we had in this world 126 00:06:48,870 --> 00:06:51,779 Zac Duff: where we could create anything, all of the information was 127 00:06:51,779 --> 00:06:54,988 Zac Duff: a PowerPoint or a PDF. So it was this 2D 128 00:06:55,020 --> 00:06:58,680 Zac Duff: information in a 3D world. That's kind of where Jig 129 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:03,089 Zac Duff: was born, was how would we communicate quickly in three dimensions? 130 00:07:03,089 --> 00:07:05,969 Zac Duff: The technology and the hardware was converging. I could see that 131 00:07:05,969 --> 00:07:09,210 Zac Duff: from my work in arcade games that the software and the 132 00:07:09,210 --> 00:07:12,480 Zac Duff: hardware was going to converge into a headset of some 133 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,200 Zac Duff: kind that was light enough, powerful enough, high resolution enough 134 00:07:16,650 --> 00:07:20,400 Zac Duff: to actually bring knowledge into the world, 3D knowledge. So 135 00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:24,629 Zac Duff: I took a Friday off, started prototyping what I thought 136 00:07:24,630 --> 00:07:27,450 Zac Duff: would be PowerPoint for 3D, and that's kind of where 137 00:07:27,450 --> 00:07:29,579 Zac Duff: it was born. But to go back to that consumer 138 00:07:29,580 --> 00:07:32,910 Zac Duff: angle and where will people use it, the very first 139 00:07:32,910 --> 00:07:36,660 Zac Duff: Jig that I made was the instructions for assembling an 140 00:07:36,660 --> 00:07:37,470 Zac Duff: IKEA table. 141 00:07:38,340 --> 00:07:38,910 Jennifer Duke: That's amazing. 142 00:07:38,910 --> 00:07:41,759 Zac Duff: So the little LACK table, just four table legs and 143 00:07:41,759 --> 00:07:45,029 Zac Duff: a tabletop, every uni student has one at some stage, 144 00:07:45,509 --> 00:07:49,230 Zac Duff: but that was like a light bulb moment because seeing 145 00:07:49,230 --> 00:07:51,929 Zac Duff: that assembly process in three dimensions and you think as 146 00:07:51,930 --> 00:07:55,440 Zac Duff: it gets more and more complex, the ability to understand 147 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,349 Zac Duff: something spatially in the same way that we experience reality, 148 00:07:58,349 --> 00:08:02,309 Zac Duff: the same way our brains are wired to learn is 149 00:08:02,309 --> 00:08:05,459 Zac Duff: a profound moment. And I sat back and thought, okay, 150 00:08:05,459 --> 00:08:07,170 Zac Duff: if I look at my air conditioner on the wall 151 00:08:07,170 --> 00:08:10,260 Zac Duff: and I think I want to change the filter on 152 00:08:10,260 --> 00:08:12,870 Zac Duff: that, I don't need to get someone out to change 153 00:08:12,870 --> 00:08:14,250 Zac Duff: the filter on my air conditioner, but I'm going to 154 00:08:14,250 --> 00:08:16,739 Zac Duff: have to because I don't know how it works. But 155 00:08:16,740 --> 00:08:20,580 Zac Duff: if Mitsubishi had made a Jig for that product and 156 00:08:20,580 --> 00:08:22,229 Zac Duff: it would show me how it pulled apart and how 157 00:08:22,230 --> 00:08:24,299 Zac Duff: I could replace it in 3D right there on that 158 00:08:24,300 --> 00:08:27,270 Zac Duff: thing, that would be a massive game changer for everyone 159 00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:30,270 Zac Duff: and it would allow people to really understand the world 160 00:08:30,270 --> 00:08:32,520 Zac Duff: around them. So that was what I wanted to build 161 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,710 Zac Duff: was a platform where you could look at anything and 162 00:08:34,710 --> 00:08:36,750 Zac Duff: ask how does it work? How do I fix that? 163 00:08:36,750 --> 00:08:39,509 Zac Duff: What's that made of? And the answer was available right there in front 164 00:08:39,509 --> 00:08:43,080 Zac Duff: of you. So we're starting in this manufacturing commercial area, 165 00:08:43,530 --> 00:08:47,339 Zac Duff: but the idea is that humanity's knowledge in 3D is 166 00:08:47,340 --> 00:08:47,610 Zac Duff: where we want to be. 167 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,108 Jennifer Duke: And we are all incredibly visual creatures. So I am 168 00:08:52,110 --> 00:08:54,929 Jennifer Duke: pretty eager to know where you're heading to from here. 169 00:08:54,929 --> 00:08:58,529 Jennifer Duke: You're obviously an Aussie business. You're growing pretty rapidly, you're 170 00:08:58,529 --> 00:09:01,890 Jennifer Duke: getting a lot of exposure, but Australia's notoriously a very 171 00:09:01,890 --> 00:09:04,920 Jennifer Duke: difficult time zone. Are you planning to move operations overseas? 172 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:06,390 Jennifer Duke: Have you got some expansion plans in mind? 173 00:09:07,470 --> 00:09:10,260 Zac Duff: Yeah, we definitely do. So we're just in the process 174 00:09:10,260 --> 00:09:13,290 Zac Duff: of setting up kind of our beach shed in the 175 00:09:13,290 --> 00:09:17,340 Zac Duff: US. So we do work pretty crazy hours, I think, 176 00:09:18,420 --> 00:09:21,390 Zac Duff: to service our customers, most of which are in Europe 177 00:09:21,390 --> 00:09:25,949 Zac Duff: and the US, so it is some long nights, but the 178 00:09:25,950 --> 00:09:28,679 Zac Duff: expansion into the US will be fantastic. We've started to. 179 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,868 Zac Duff: We've been product- led the whole way, we've kind of 180 00:09:30,870 --> 00:09:35,039 Zac Duff: been. We believe that the product and the person using 181 00:09:35,039 --> 00:09:36,809 Zac Duff: it needs to be the most important thing for us, 182 00:09:36,809 --> 00:09:39,120 Zac Duff: rather than just going in at a high level and 183 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,670 Zac Duff: selling, we wanted to make sure that it really worked 184 00:09:41,670 --> 00:09:43,650 Zac Duff: for the end user, the person who's stuck with it, 185 00:09:43,650 --> 00:09:46,139 Zac Duff: the knowledge worker, like the non- technical worker who has 186 00:09:46,139 --> 00:09:49,290 Zac Duff: to crank out all the knowledge content. So we've focused 187 00:09:49,290 --> 00:09:51,240 Zac Duff: very heavily on that, but now we're starting to spin 188 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,328 Zac Duff: up our sales team as our customers that started out 189 00:09:54,330 --> 00:09:56,850 Zac Duff: on the free tier and have been moving up through 190 00:09:56,850 --> 00:09:59,640 Zac Duff: the different paid tiers. We're starting to get enterprise contracts 191 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,330 Zac Duff: from that organic growth, and we now have kind of 192 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,830 Zac Duff: the motion in place so that we can go out and start to sell those bigger enterprise contracts. 193 00:10:08,370 --> 00:10:10,349 Jennifer Duke: Which I guess brings us to the money. So over 194 00:10:10,350 --> 00:10:12,118 Jennifer Duke: the last couple of years, you've done a couple of 195 00:10:12,119 --> 00:10:16,020 Jennifer Duke: funding rounds totalling about US$10 million. So are you profitable 196 00:10:16,020 --> 00:10:17,819 Jennifer Duke: yet or are you still in that growth phase? 197 00:10:18,390 --> 00:10:21,450 Zac Duff: Still in the growth phase, but we're moving towards it 198 00:10:21,599 --> 00:10:24,299 Zac Duff: pretty rapidly at the moment. So we really only started 199 00:10:24,300 --> 00:10:28,889 Zac Duff: commercialising in the last about 14 to 16 months when we started to 200 00:10:28,889 --> 00:10:31,199 Zac Duff: put out our pricing model that we're working on now, 201 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,380 Zac Duff: and that's all been product-led organic growth. And we're past 202 00:10:34,380 --> 00:10:37,350 Zac Duff: half a million in rev now, so it's starting to 203 00:10:37,350 --> 00:10:40,080 Zac Duff: grow now as we put this kind of the afterburners 204 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,020 Zac Duff: on with the sales motion, it's going to really start 205 00:10:43,020 --> 00:10:43,410 Zac Duff: ramping up. 206 00:10:43,980 --> 00:10:45,091 Jennifer Duke: Definitely. Zac, thank you very much for talking to Fear and Greed. 207 00:10:45,091 --> 00:10:45,092 Zac Duff: No worries. It's been great to be on here. 208 00:10:45,092 --> 00:10:52,290 Jennifer Duke: And that was Zac Duff, the co- founder and CEO of JigSpace. 209 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,140 Jennifer Duke: This is the Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us 210 00:10:55,140 --> 00:10:57,570 Jennifer Duke: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, 211 00:10:57,599 --> 00:11:01,860 Jennifer Duke: Australia's best business podcast. I'm Jennifer Duke, economics correspondent for 212 00:11:01,860 --> 00:11:04,469 Jennifer Duke: Capital Brief and filling in for Sean Aylmer. Have a 213 00:11:04,469 --> 00:11:04,799 Jennifer Duke: great day.