WEBVTT - The woman who spoke out against Google on AI

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<v Speaker 1>Chairwoman Maloney, Ranking Member Jordan, and members of the Committee,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you for inviting me to speak today. My name

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<v Speaker 1>is Meredith Whitaker and I'm the co founder of the

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<v Speaker 1>AI Now Institute.

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<v Speaker 2>In twenty twenty, Meredith Whittikue gave testimony to US Congress

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<v Speaker 2>about the threat of artificial intelligence.

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<v Speaker 1>Facial recognition poses serious dangers to our rights, liberties, and values.

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<v Speaker 1>Whether it's used by the state or private actors, the

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<v Speaker 1>technology does not work as advertised. Research shows what tech

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<v Speaker 1>companies are.

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<v Speaker 2>She turned her back on a career at Google and

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to send the public message.

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<v Speaker 1>Facial recognition relies on the mass collection of our biometric data.

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<v Speaker 1>It allows government and private actors to persistently track where

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<v Speaker 1>we go, what we do, and who we associate with.

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<v Speaker 3>But she didn't turn her back on tech entirely.

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<v Speaker 1>If you care about the over policing of community, communities

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<v Speaker 1>of color, or gender equity, or the constitutional right to

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<v Speaker 1>do process and free association, then the secret of unchecked

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<v Speaker 1>deployment of flawed facial recognition systems is an issue you

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<v Speaker 1>cannot ignore.

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<v Speaker 2>From Schwartz Media, I'm Ashlin Macgee. This is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 2>Meredith Whittaker is one of the world's most influential people

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<v Speaker 2>in AI, except she doesn't work in it anymore. She

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<v Speaker 2>spent years deep in the bowels of Google until a

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<v Speaker 2>secretive defense contract changed.

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<v Speaker 3>Her entire perspective.

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<v Speaker 2>She's now the president of Signal, an encrypted messaging app

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<v Speaker 2>used by journalists, whistleblowers, drug dealers, militants, and really anyone who.

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<v Speaker 3>Wants to keep their communications secure.

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<v Speaker 2>Privacy advocates love it, law enforcement hate it, and Meredith

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<v Speaker 2>Whittaker is fighting governments desperate to regulate it. Today, the

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<v Speaker 2>President of the Signal Foundation, Meredith Whittaker a head of

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<v Speaker 2>her public appearance at the Wheeler Center in Melbourne on

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<v Speaker 2>the tech giant to rule the future and why she

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<v Speaker 2>says signals not one of them.

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<v Speaker 3>That's after the break, Meridith.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of people would describe the moment that we're

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<v Speaker 2>in now when it comes to artificial intelligence is a

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<v Speaker 2>really pivotal one. But I wanted to ask about you

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<v Speaker 2>personally and what led you to begin researching and examining AI.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, it boils down to my having been in

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<v Speaker 1>the tech industry now for almost twenty years and a

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<v Speaker 1>little over ten years ago or so beginning to see

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<v Speaker 1>AI or machine learning as we called it, then emerge

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<v Speaker 1>as a heart new thing inside Google where I worked,

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<v Speaker 1>and starting to ask questions about what AI was and.

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<v Speaker 4>How it worked.

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<v Speaker 1>That led me to a more critical perspective on these

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<v Speaker 1>set of technologies and actually to understanding their deep inextricable

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<v Speaker 1>connection to the platform surveillance business model.

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<v Speaker 3>So talk to me a little bit more about that.

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<v Speaker 2>What were you working on at Google at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>and how did you see it come up in your workplace.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so I'd done a number of initiatives at Google

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<v Speaker 1>by that time, and one of the big projects that

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<v Speaker 1>I kind of cut my teeth on in tech was

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<v Speaker 1>an effort called Measurement Lab whether we can trust data

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<v Speaker 1>or not, whether it should inform our decision makings, or

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<v Speaker 1>whether we need to be a little bit wary. So

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<v Speaker 1>I was coming into this AI moments around the early

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<v Speaker 1>twenty tens with that type of skepticism, and of course

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<v Speaker 1>when I saw that these technologies we were calling AI,

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<v Speaker 1>these machine learning models were being trained, were being informed

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<v Speaker 1>by much less robust data, often data that was making

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<v Speaker 1>very socially sensitive claims about people and population, data that

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<v Speaker 1>was created in service of selling ads or you know,

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<v Speaker 1>tracking clicks and preferences across browsers or the search instance

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<v Speaker 1>or what have you. That really animated my concern around AI.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a moment where I realized that there were

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<v Speaker 1>some real high stakes to what I was seeing, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and potentially those stakes were beyond what I had understood before.

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<v Speaker 4>And this was.

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<v Speaker 1>Twenty fourteen when a research group from Harvard was presenting

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<v Speaker 1>to myself and some colleagues an initiative that aimed to

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<v Speaker 1>create an AI system to predict genocide. And I remember

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<v Speaker 1>some of thinking through what they were doing, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>asking some pretty basic questions, right, Like, the term genocide

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<v Speaker 1>is not clearly defined. It is a politically contested term.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was asking questions around, Okay, well, how do

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<v Speaker 1>you define genoide? What type of data do you rely

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<v Speaker 1>on to model predictors for genocide?

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<v Speaker 4>Right?

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<v Speaker 1>So you know, where are you getting this? How do

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<v Speaker 1>you take responsibility for the fact that if you deployed

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<v Speaker 1>such a predictor you may be putting your thumbs on

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<v Speaker 1>the scale, You may be in fact inflaming or otherwise

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<v Speaker 1>shaping volatile political context outside of your scope of awareness.

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<v Speaker 4>And I got no good answers to those questions.

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<v Speaker 3>So you stayed on a Google after that? Then what happens?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, twenty seventeen.

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<v Speaker 1>Someone sent me a signal message one night in the

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<v Speaker 1>fall of twenty seventeen saying, Hey, I think you need

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<v Speaker 1>to know this. I happen to privilege access to the

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<v Speaker 1>small team of people who are working on this secretive

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<v Speaker 1>contract with the Defense Department to build machine vision and

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<v Speaker 1>surveillance systems for the US drone war, you know, which

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<v Speaker 1>had been deemed illegal by every blue chip human rights organization.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was extremely angry, and I was very worried

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<v Speaker 1>because this was Google, who is a company that had

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<v Speaker 1>effectively been enabled by regulators and governments around the world

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<v Speaker 1>to take on incredibly significant roles in our society.

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<v Speaker 4>Right, you know, you no longer go to the library,

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<v Speaker 4>You google it.

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<v Speaker 5>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>They are positioning themselves as the gateway to the world's

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<v Speaker 1>knowledge and understanding.

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<v Speaker 4>They are, you know, creating.

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<v Speaker 1>The platforms for human interpersonal communication. And so we had

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<v Speaker 1>given this power to these companies on the basis of

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<v Speaker 1>very clear promises to do the right thing, to not

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<v Speaker 1>be evil, to not misuse this power. And this was

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<v Speaker 1>crossing a red line in my view.

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<v Speaker 6>Artificial intelligence drones warfare and Google. It's a mixture that

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<v Speaker 6>caused an uproar inside the tech giint, where the early

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<v Speaker 6>motto was don't be evil. So what's behind Google's contract

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<v Speaker 6>with the Department of Defense for a project called mabn

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<v Speaker 6>me Now from.

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<v Speaker 1>Google, who was now yoking their fortunes to the world's

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<v Speaker 1>most lethel military in the context of a drone war

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<v Speaker 1>that was again deemed illegal, that was massacring wedding parties

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<v Speaker 1>based on inaccurate data streams, and that was setting a

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<v Speaker 1>precedent for a kind of technologically enabled empire that I

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<v Speaker 1>found really dangerous and morally repugnant.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that why you left Google?

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<v Speaker 1>No, That's why I started organizing at Google. That's why

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<v Speaker 1>I started rallying the people around me to push back.

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<v Speaker 1>That's why your thousands of people along with me, wrote letters,

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<v Speaker 1>gave out literature, signed petitions, went to the press, spoke

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<v Speaker 1>publicly against this contract, and ultimately forced Google to cancel it.

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<v Speaker 7>A letter to Google CEO Sunder Pitchai signed by more

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<v Speaker 7>than three thousand Google workers.

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<v Speaker 3>Here's what it says.

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<v Speaker 7>Quote, we believe Google should not be in the business

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<v Speaker 7>of war. Therefore, we ask that project may then be

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<v Speaker 7>canceled and that Google draft public publicized, and.

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<v Speaker 4>So you know, no, it's not where I left.

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<v Speaker 1>It's why I started fighting in a much more concerned

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<v Speaker 1>way and started relying on.

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<v Speaker 4>Techniques from the past of you know.

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<v Speaker 1>Kind of building power among workers and stakeholders to push

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<v Speaker 1>back on corporate decisions. Because it became very clear that

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<v Speaker 1>you change from the insight doesn't happen simply by making

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<v Speaker 1>a good point.

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<v Speaker 2>After the break the harmful content on Signal that Meredith

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<v Speaker 2>whittyk says is being weaponized. So, Meredith, you now the

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<v Speaker 2>president of the Signal Foundation. What was it about Signal

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<v Speaker 2>that appeals?

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<v Speaker 3>Why join?

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<v Speaker 4>Oh?

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<v Speaker 1>I love Signal. I've been a Signal super fan since

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<v Speaker 1>day one. I've been friends and admirers of the Signal folks.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there is a future in which Signal sustains

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<v Speaker 1>and grows and continue the incredible momentum that it's already generating.

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<v Speaker 1>And that is a future where we can speak privately,

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<v Speaker 1>where journalism is possible, where human rights work is possible,

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<v Speaker 1>where dissent is possible, where we can where activists and

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<v Speaker 1>dissidents and militaries and CEOs and anyone with something important

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<v Speaker 1>to say that could be weaponized against them by their

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<v Speaker 1>adversaries or those in power. Can use signal to truly

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<v Speaker 1>communicate privately, and that's the future that I think we need,

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<v Speaker 1>particularly given so many gnarly issues in the world, particularly

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<v Speaker 1>given the increasing prominence of authoritarians and government. We must

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<v Speaker 1>preserve the ability to communicate in a truly private way

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<v Speaker 1>because we cannot have all of our thoughts and our

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<v Speaker 1>correspondence subjects to mass surveillance and then weaponized by those

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<v Speaker 1>in power.

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<v Speaker 2>Meredith, you've been in Australia now for a little over

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<v Speaker 2>a week. There's a big push here for our government

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<v Speaker 2>to improve regulation of the Internet. What do you make

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<v Speaker 2>of it?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I'm learning and listening to a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>folks in Australia. I think you know, I was really

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<v Speaker 1>heartened to see that the E Safety Commissioner released language

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<v Speaker 1>that you know, looks like a great first step in

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<v Speaker 1>protecting encryption. I think Australia has a big role to

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<v Speaker 1>play in these debates.

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<v Speaker 8>We will be seeking cooperation wherever we can, but we

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<v Speaker 8>need to take action and the online.

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<v Speaker 2>There is one really gnlly issue though that signal is

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<v Speaker 2>grappling at the moment, and that is this big conversation

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<v Speaker 2>around how encryption and platforms that are encrypted, including signal,

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<v Speaker 2>are being used to share terror and child exploitation content.

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<v Speaker 3>That must weigh on your mind.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, weays on my mind that people are weaponizing such

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<v Speaker 1>socially significant and often monstrous issues to attack the one

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<v Speaker 1>technology we have that actually enables private communication. Like Look,

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<v Speaker 1>this is a long standing tension. The attack on encryption,

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<v Speaker 1>the attack on the ability to communicate and transact privately

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<v Speaker 1>over networked computation, has existed since the mid seventies, when

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<v Speaker 1>public key encryption technologies were invented and security services in

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<v Speaker 1>the US literally tried to stop publication of the paper

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<v Speaker 1>that documented these systems. Then you go to the nineties

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<v Speaker 1>and these same tropes emerge over and over again. You

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<v Speaker 1>have a nineteen ninety two op ed and Wired by

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<v Speaker 1>then NSA head Stuart Baker that claims that these very

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<v Speaker 1>rudimentary encrypted systems are the providence of terrorists and pedophiles

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<v Speaker 1>and that no one beyond those demographics should really be

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<v Speaker 1>concerned about privacy because the rest of us don't have

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<v Speaker 1>anything to hide. Now, the landscape of surveillance in the seventies,

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<v Speaker 1>in the nineties, and now is vastly different, but somehow

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<v Speaker 1>the arguments never change. Somehow it is always the state

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<v Speaker 1>must have access to every realm of human life in

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<v Speaker 1>service of rooting out the bad guys and supporting the

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<v Speaker 1>good guys. But of course that is not how it

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<v Speaker 1>works in practice, and what we see today, in my view,

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<v Speaker 1>is a renewed attack on the ability to truly communicate privately,

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<v Speaker 1>based on emotional claims that are not supported by data.

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<v Speaker 1>There is no evidence that encryption is a causal factor

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<v Speaker 1>in child abuse or terrorism.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll just jump in their meritis because I just want

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<v Speaker 2>to explore that a little bit more. And I guess

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<v Speaker 2>what we're talking about is not whether it's a causal factor,

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<v Speaker 2>but the fact that this type of content is shared

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<v Speaker 2>on encrypted platforms. It does get shared on encrypted platforms.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that that's fairly obvious these it do you accept, then.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, the purpose of encryption.

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<v Speaker 1>Is to provide provable privacy. We cannot look into the

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<v Speaker 1>messages that you send on signal, so I'm sure a

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<v Speaker 1>number of things are shared on encrypted platforms, but there

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<v Speaker 1>is no evidence that encrypted platforms produce more abuse. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>there are things that we do to ensure that the

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<v Speaker 1>harm surface on signal is reduced. The primary one is

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<v Speaker 1>we are not a social networking platform. But again that

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<v Speaker 1>framing then immediately implies that somehow, if there were, if platforms,

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<v Speaker 1>if tech companies just did the right thing, the deep

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<v Speaker 1>sickness of child sexual abuse would somehow go away. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think, to me, that's really dangerous because we've abstracted

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<v Speaker 1>the issue of child sexual abuse into an online problem

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<v Speaker 1>that a couple of engineers turning some knobs and giving

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<v Speaker 1>law enforcement and potentially authoritarian governments in the US extra

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<v Speaker 1>access will somehow solve. I don't think one person who

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<v Speaker 1>showed up in Epstein's Black Book has been prosecuted, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I do need to say is incredibly dangerous in the

0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.200
<v Speaker 1>US right now, there's a woman living in prison this

0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:42.440
<v Speaker 1>moment because Facebook turned over messages between her and her

0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:46.320
<v Speaker 1>daughter that documented their excess of reproductive care and dealing

0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.280
<v Speaker 1>with the aftermath. In the state of Nebraska after the

0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:51.680
<v Speaker 1>Dobbs decision, we are learning more.

0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.920
<v Speaker 5>Now about how Facebook turned over a mom and her

0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:59.120
<v Speaker 5>teen's daughter. Her teenage daughters chats to police in Nebraska

0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:02.960
<v Speaker 5>court document show police served a Facebook a warrant as

0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:07.080
<v Speaker 5>part of an investigation into an alleged illegal abortion. The

0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:08.320
<v Speaker 5>probe started back in a year.

0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.320
<v Speaker 1>We need to demand the kind of precision and rigor

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<v Speaker 1>that is often difficult in the face of highly emotionally

0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:15.960
<v Speaker 1>charged topics.

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<v Speaker 4>But there's no way to get this right if we

0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:18.200
<v Speaker 4>don't do that.

0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:23.360
<v Speaker 2>Finally, Meredith, there are AI evangelists and AI doomsdays in

0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:23.920
<v Speaker 2>this world.

0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:25.800
<v Speaker 3>What do you identify as?

0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.440
<v Speaker 1>I am an AI realist, which means I'm not clear

0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.360
<v Speaker 1>that AI is what we should be interested in so

0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:35.560
<v Speaker 1>much as the configurations of power that are going to

0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.520
<v Speaker 1>use AI and the way that AI could be used

0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.600
<v Speaker 1>to generally harm the most marginalized.

0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:47.720
<v Speaker 4>I'm not really a user of AI, putting aside that I.

0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:51.320
<v Speaker 1>Don't really use GPT or these sort of generative toys.

0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.840
<v Speaker 1>I think in most cases, like most other people, I

0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:58.360
<v Speaker 1>am more the subject of AI than a user of AI.

0:15:58.400 --> 0:15:59.960
<v Speaker 1>And what I mean by that is, you know, well,

0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:04.040
<v Speaker 1>all walk down the street and a CCTV camera will

0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:07.200
<v Speaker 1>pick up our face, and that CCTV camera may transmit

0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:11.520
<v Speaker 1>that biometric data to a clear view AI facial recognition

0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.520
<v Speaker 1>database that then pulls up a profile of us.

0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.280
<v Speaker 4>Right I walk into a bank, I might apply for

0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:17.680
<v Speaker 4>a loan.

0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:20.200
<v Speaker 1>An AI system that is a licensed from Microsoft on

0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.600
<v Speaker 1>the back end may be involved in making a determination

0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.480
<v Speaker 1>about whether I get that loan or not. But in

0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.760
<v Speaker 1>none of those cases am I actually using AI. I

0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:33.440
<v Speaker 1>am conscripted as an AI subject by the institutions and

0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:38.120
<v Speaker 1>governments that have chosen to implement AI, and so I

0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.640
<v Speaker 1>think we need to recognize that power dynamic when we

0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:41.720
<v Speaker 1>think about using AI.

0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:44.280
<v Speaker 4>This is generally a tool of.

0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:49.280
<v Speaker 1>Those who have power that's used to subject those who

0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:50.160
<v Speaker 1>have less.

0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:53.440
<v Speaker 3>Thanks so much for your time, Meredith.

0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:55.320
<v Speaker 4>Thank you, it's great to be here.

0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.680
<v Speaker 2>Also in the news today, Julian Assange's walked free from

0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:15.359
<v Speaker 2>Belmarsh Prison and will face court today on the island

0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:19.480
<v Speaker 2>of Saipan, a US commonwealth in the Pacific Ocean. Under

0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.480
<v Speaker 2>a deal struck with the US Justice Department. Assange is

0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.800
<v Speaker 2>expected to be sentenced by a judge to time already served,

0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.240
<v Speaker 2>and then he'll be free to return to Australia. Prime

0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.600
<v Speaker 2>Minister Anthony Albanezi revealed Assange would be a company to

0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:35.639
<v Speaker 2>court by the current UK High Commissioner, but said he

0:17:35.680 --> 0:17:39.399
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't comment further until after a final judgment's being secured.

0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:43.080
<v Speaker 9>We want him brought home to Australia and we have

0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:48.720
<v Speaker 9>engaged and advocated Australia's interests using all appropriate channels to

0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:53.359
<v Speaker 9>support a positive outcome, and I've done that.

0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:56.760
<v Speaker 8>Since very early on in my prime ministership. I will

0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.879
<v Speaker 8>have more to say when these legal proceedings have concluded,

0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.160
<v Speaker 8>which I hope will be very soon, and I will.

0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:06.439
<v Speaker 2>That's all from the team at seven am for today.

0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.400
<v Speaker 2>My name is Ashlin McGhee. Thanks so much for your company.

0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:10.640
<v Speaker 2>See you again tomorrow.