WEBVTT - Episode 34: A Cautionary Tale 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.680 Listeners are advised that this podcast series Brown contains course 0:00:04.800 --> 0:00:08.840 language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:42.920 you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian Michael Drury 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:47.440 was the undercover cop they Couldn't Corrupt, a plain clothes 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:51.720 detective with a relentless determination to expose organized crime in 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:56.840 Sydney's underworld. His name is synonymous in Australian police and 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:57.840 crime circles. 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:00.960 Ray had morning onto GB. 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:04.680 It was ten past six in the evening on June sixth, 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.840 nine eighty four on the North side of Sydney, and 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:12.399 the unbelievable happened. A serving police officer who'd been undercover 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.440 about to testify in a giant drug case. We shot 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:17.080 in his own home in front of his wife and 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:21.080 two small children. When the undercover drug squad officer woke 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:23.880 for his CAMA twelve days later, he was in no 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:27.600 doubt that a fellow officer, Roger Rogerson, was involved in 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:28.880 that assassination attempt. 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:33.760 My colleague Matt Condon told me that his friend Michael 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.760 Drury had been paying a lot of attention to the 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:42.280 evidence in our podcast investigation into Bromin's disappearance. Matt confided 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.360 that the long retired detective had focused his still sharp 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.520 inquisitive brain on some of the angles in the case. 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:55.320 Mick Drury also knows Lennox Head well. The force's most 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:59.440 bent cop was Roger Rogerson in the nineteen eighties. A 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:03.440 skilled detective but a sociopathic killer who had crossed the 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:08.799 dark side. Rogerson ordered the execution of his fellow officer, 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:13.880 Michael Drury. Many years later, The Sixty Minutes reporter Liz 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.760 Hayes took Mick Drury back to his old home in 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:19.400 which he was shot twice and almost died. 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:23.760 This is the kitchen and the kitchen window, of course, 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:27.760 and unfortunately this is where it all happened. The first 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:31.000 shot hit me straight through the stomach, into the area 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:34.000 just next to the backbone and lodged between the ribs, 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:37.320 and the second shot hit me alongside the heart and 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:38.840 underneath the shoulder blade. 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:42.920 He has been living in northern New South Wales for years. 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.160 I wanted to pick his investigative brain. We caught up 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:50.639 at a roadside cafe. One of the first things Mick 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:54.080 confided to me there was his awe at the potential 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:59.239 for true crime podcast investigations to solve old cold cases. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:05.040 And when you've got exposure Australia wide and even overseas 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:09.239 for that matter, you've got tens and tens and tens 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:13.239 of thousands of people listening to it, that one a 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:18.760 positive and truthful outcome, and someone out there may have 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:26.160 a fresh idea. Why would a loving, dedicated mother, for 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:31.919 no reason whatsoever, after one so called private phone call 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.680 in the bedroom, come out the front and say to 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:39.800 John Winfield, oh, by the way, I'm off see you later, 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.240 A wave to him, close the door and off into 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:47.480 the never never and be never seen later. Absolute bullshit. 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:53.480 That is not correct. I state my entire career on that. 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:57.240 It just does not ring true. I would love to 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:00.000 interview him to get his version of the store. 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.760 Mick Drury zeroed in on a crucial period of fewer 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:09.040 than twenty four hours, the period from when John arrived 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:12.720 in Lennox Head after the flight from Sydney on Sunday 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:17.000 evening May sixteenth, until the Monday afternoon when he turned 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:19.360 up at Andy and Michelle's house in the Shire. 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:24.280 On that Sunday, he was awake for most of the day, 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:29.600 had short notice. He caught a plane from Sydney to Ballana. 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:34.360 I find this interesting. He went to the police station 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.760 and forecast them that he was going to his house 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:44.080 with some pending, perhaps a verbal drama with his wife 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:48.640 because they weren't on good terms. John Winfel was a 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:53.359 dedicated surfboard rider. He brings the surfboard up by plane 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:59.040 from Sydney, which would indicate is coming home for several days, 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:04.760 and he leaves later that night. There is no doubt 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:10.680 in my mind that something very disturbing happened that night 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:15.400 after driving almost non stop back to Sydney that night 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:23.280 with amazing stamina and fatigue that I would suggest zero notice. 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:29.880 He's requested that the mother in law take care of 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:33.640 the two children, and that freed him up with the 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:41.200 motor car to do whatever he wanted, unobserved and unsupervised. 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:46.080 Now that worries me, because then that means he's got 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:50.800 freedom of use of the motor car whatever may be 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.159 disturbing in the car. I would suggest he was concealed 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:58.680 in the boot in the hysterics of the moment that 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:02.160 he must have been going through through in scooping up 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:09.080 the children, in leaving the house in an extremely untidy condition, 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:15.680 when he's realized whatever this disaster may be, he has 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:20.560 jumped in his car and driven non stop to Sydney. 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:28.159 Something very serious has happened. He has taken flight away 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:29.480 from the area. 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:36.200 What about the risk of driving a vehicle that's unregistered 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:41.120 some eight hundred odd kilometers with a body in the boot. 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:44.039 As you put it, If there was a body in 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:48.240 the boot, there is a risk involved. But I would 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:52.480 suggest Sunday night at twelve midnight, one, two, three, four, 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:55.279 five in the morning. You don't have that many highway 0:06:55.320 --> 0:07:01.640 patrol in those days on the old wading, very slow 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:03.279 driving Pacific Highway. 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:07.640 And in those days, would an unregistered vehicle have been 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:09.560 immediately obvious to a highway patrol. 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:14.160 No, he would have known that. He's a man of 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.240 a high degree of intellect. I've got to give him that, 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:24.760 and he's got more opportunity and flexibility of doing something 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:29.600 sinister like disposing of a body in the Sydney area. 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:34.120 That's where John flourished a receipt for petrol purchased for 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.560 the overnight drive from Sandstone Crescent to Sydney with the 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:42.440 two girls. He produced it to Andy Reid and Michelle Reid. 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:48.040 I think it's very disturbing behavior. When you're the suspect 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:54.480 of a crime and you have this ridiculous example of 0:07:54.800 --> 0:08:00.720 alibi construction on the balance of probability does not work 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:06.840 in your favor. It is a mark against you. It's 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:12.480 alibi construction by someone who's trying to cover their tracks. 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.480 Bromlin actually had a little bit of a background in banking, 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:21.440 et cetera, so she would understand the format of a check. 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:27.520 Back to front. There he is, five years later, being 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.680 interviewed by the police to do a formal statement or interview. 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:37.800 John Winfield produces this check and claims he founded on 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:42.080 the kitchen table five years earlier when he went up 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:46.120 there the second time with her signature on it, and 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.960 it should not have been her signature. Is that correct? 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:50.960 Didn't need her signature? Correct? 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:55.400 Correct? Why would he keep that check for five years? 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:01.800 Why would he keep a petrol docket five years? This 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:07.439 is what's called alibi construction at its finest. It takes 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:09.679 my breath away. This is nonsense. 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:14.760 So you're seeing now a pattern of alibi constructions. Oh yes, yes, 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:19.400 Mick Drury circled back to John's hasty departure from the 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.440 house at Sandstone Crescent, on Sunday night, and then John's 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.880 telephone call from Sydney to his neighbor Murray Nolan two 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:30.240 days later, asking Murray to break into the house. 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:38.880 John was very obsessive with the hygiene and placement of 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:44.960 things around the house that he owned at Lennox Head. Yes, 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:50.599 now this is important. I believe that he is obsessive 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:54.640 compulsive in his behavior in that regard. The next door 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:59.360 neighbor is instructed by John Winfield to go and knock 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:02.920 on the door of the house and if there's no answer, 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:05.839 if they be break in, and it's a bit of 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:09.280 a mess here there and everywhere, the children's bedrooms, the 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:14.920 kitchen area, and John some days earlier has driven back 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:18.240 to Sydney and left his house in a mess. I 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:23.400 find leaving the house in that state or condition diametrically 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:28.319 opposed to the normality of John Winfield, which is obsessive 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:32.320 compulsive in that regard what was going through his mind. 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:39.439 It is so ridiculous that it is, in my opinion humble, 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:47.760 as it is absolutely compelling evidence of a very disturbing nature. 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:54.040 Turning to that Monday in Sydney, he has dropped his 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:59.360 daughters off at his ex wife's house, where his mother 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:04.319 in law answers the door, and no doubt a bit bewildered, 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:09.560 agrees to accept the children for several hours. We then 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:15.720 surmise in the podcast that John may have gone directly 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:19.160 to this building site at a place called Illawong in 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:21.560 the Shire where he had been working as a brick 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:26.960 lath and part of our suspicion over Illawong is based 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.960 on a fairly recent discovery which the police and the 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.720 coroner didn't know about many years ago, and that discovery 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:41.760 being council documents from nineteen ninety three showing that the 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:47.319 inspectors of the council had approved just days before Bromwin 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:53.040 disappeared the pouring of concrete for the patio and the 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:54.359 garage slab. 0:11:54.440 --> 0:12:00.280 And that's wonderful evidence about the date for approval the 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:01.560 pouring of the concrete. 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:07.320 It's possible that Bromwin was put underneath the plastic and 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:10.680 the rio that was all there ready for the concrete pause, 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:16.640 and then the paws have occurred and she remains there entombed. 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:22.080 It's far easier to dig a hole in an area 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:27.080 like that than it is somewhere around Lennox Head. The 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:31.120 grave only has to be twelve inches deep and from 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.800 their backfill, was Sad put the plastic over in the 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.839 rio and it's done. It wouldn't be the first time 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.840 our body's been located in that type of location. 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:46.520 Is that a site that you, if you're a detective 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:51.840 on this case, would regard as low, medium, or high 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:56.599 priority based on the circumstantial evidence you've heard in the podcast. 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.120 My view is when I look at the movement to 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:04.679 John Winfield from that fabled Sunday night, it is absolutely 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:09.160 critical to find out what may be happening underneath. That 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:16.319 is a vital area of consideration for intense forensic examination. 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.280 Listening to the podcast as closely as you do as 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:26.160 a retired detective of impeccable standing and knowing the area 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:32.480 Lenox and Ballana surrounding beaches, do you feel a connection 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:36.360 to this case that has led you to volunteer this. 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:46.000 Help Look Podcasts are very very new forms of educational 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:51.960 entertainment in this modern day for everyone in the community. 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:56.240 It gives an opportunity for those tens of thousands of 0:13:56.360 --> 0:14:01.400 people out there in Australia and perhaps overseas to send 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:04.800 you emails or ring you up or one of your 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.560 staff members and say what about this? 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:08.320 What about that? 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:13.360 We're doing a process of critically analyzing the facts that 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:18.960 we're aware of. You have an investigational team of ten 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.920 thousand or more. That's one hell of a team. This 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:30.320 is a twenty first century version of Sherlock Holmes before. 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:35.400 You read the final chapter. When investigations go bad at 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:39.960 an early stage, there's a tendency for people to speculate 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:42.160 that it must have been because of corruption. 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:48.200 With the benefit of hindsight, it's very easy to be 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:53.120 critical of an individual or what may or may not 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:55.960 or should or should not have been done. We're not 0:14:56.080 --> 0:15:00.680 dealing with a shoplifting from the local corner store. We're 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:06.080 dealing with a suspected murder. It doesn't come more serious 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:13.480 than a suspected murder. I happen to know retired Detective 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:19.040 Sergeant Graham Diskin personally. He actually joined the cops with 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:25.680 me the same class. I haven't seen him for forty 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.960 years or more. I won't go into the way his 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:34.960 mind works. I don't want to be unfairly critical of anyone, 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:42.280 but I can tell you now something very disturbing happened 0:15:42.360 --> 0:16:05.840 on that Sunday night. 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:10.160 We do not know whether the owners of the Illawong 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:14.480 house share our suspicions and the suspicions of thousands of listeners. 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.640 For all we know, those owners have never heard of 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:22.680 the Bromwin podcast. But I have talked to Cariina and 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:27.360 Andy about whether perhaps we should visit, introduce ourselves to 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.920 the owners and just tell them about everything. 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:33.600 I was just thinking back to what Maddie said one day. 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:35.960 I think you and Maddie and Andy Hedley were in 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:40.520 the car driving away from Illowong, and Maddie said, can 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.000 you imagine if someone came up to your door and Toddy, 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:47.320 this may be a person underneath your what? 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:50.160 I don't know if i'd like to hear that. 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:55.920 How would you even approach that? I guess I worry 0:16:55.960 --> 0:17:01.760 that we might cause them some angst and concern at 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.480 a time when we can't do anything much to alleviate that. 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:09.600 I feel like it would be transparent of us and 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:14.040 talked so much about this property to talk to the 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.760 owners without putting any pressure on them. We can just 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:23.160 talk to them on background, just a conversation to fill 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:24.600 in any gaps they might have. 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:27.800 We don't know what the current state of play is 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.960 with the police, so we can't really give them particularly 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:33.720 up to date information or tell them what the lie 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.080 of the land is at the moment. I mean, obviously 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:38.119 they could turn us away. That's not the end of 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.520 the world for us. But I'm a bit worried about 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:43.720 the effect that it could have on them as a family, 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.240 especially if they have children. If they know nothing at 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.760 the minute and we sort of go and burst that bubble, 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:53.879 then it could potentially cause them quite a lot of 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:55.240 stress and anxiety, I think. 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:58.800 But if we're assuming that the police will go there 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:01.760 to search, then that bubble is going to be burst anyway. 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:06.040 Yeah, it will. But again I think there's a difference 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:10.480 between having your bubble burst by law enforcement. They could 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.840 really welcome contact from us and might have been say, oh, 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:15.679 we've been waiting for you to get in touch. But 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:19.560 on the other hand, it might just come completely out 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:21.280 of the blue and be a real shock. 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:25.480 But what if nothing's going to happen despite the letter 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:30.920 to the state coroner, despite the new evidence pointing to Illowong, 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:37.119 nothing happens. Let's hypothetically say that we have chosen to 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:40.080 avoid the family at Illowong, to knock go and knock 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.639 on the door and introduce ourselves in good faith, and 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.800 then the promin series comes to an end. The police 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:50.960 keept diverted elsewhere. You and I are diverted elsewhere onto 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:55.080 another murder investigation, and Illawong goes completely overlooked, and we 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.600 never ever spoke to the family, who may say, look, 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:02.439 if the police have no interest in searching our property. 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.800 Will you and I see what you mean about the 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:07.560 fact that people might move on and get distracted by 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:10.240 other things. But it is something we could revisit down 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:15.840 the track if there was no police action ultimately taken. 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:20.840 Do you agree that it's more likely than not the 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:25.840 family living there knows about the history of that property. 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:30.280 There's definitely a possibility that they know about it. 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.120 What is the worst thing could happen by us going 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:38.119 there and introducing ourselves and just offering to answer questions 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:41.440 and telling them that in the event police don't search, 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.120 we'd like to come back and talk to them. 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:47.280 The worst thing that can happen is that we approach 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.760 the owners at the Llowong house now at this stage 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:54.560 when there's not a real need to go there, and 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:59.320 they are unhappy about that contact from us, And then 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:02.479 down the track the authorities might decide not to go 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.199 to Illawong, and we really do need to go in 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.280 at that point if we want to try to bring 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:10.000 about a search of the site, and the owners might 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.080 be less inclined to engage with us at that time 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:17.960 if we've sort of irritated them now through an unnecessary approach. 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:20.800 I was going to stand right behind you when you 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:22.280 knocked on the door, just. 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.080 Time it off and made it my responsibility. 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:29.480 Andy was going about his own building job when I 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.960 reached him to talk about it. The owners of that 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:37.280 house in Illawong must now know that it's their house 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.240 that has been discussed in the podcast as being a 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:41.720 possible burial ground. 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:45.919 For Bromwind thinks, so, yeah, don't don't know that. 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.399 It wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. 0:20:48.440 --> 0:20:51.800 Your all, how did you feel about you and I am, 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:56.960 possibly Karina going up to that property and offering to 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:00.600 answer any of their questions based on the that they 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.040 do know and we're not trying to cause them trouble, 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.399 and we have the one to identify the property really 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.360 just as a good will gesture, and we'll ask them, 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:11.120 how would you feel about the police coming here? If 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:13.920 that's their decision, but we won't be saying to them 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:16.760 we want to do it ourselves. We wouldn't be interfering 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.360 with the site in doing that, we wouldn't be contaminating anything. 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:24.520 We'd simply be knocking on the door and offering to 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:29.560 have a chat to them about what's been unfolding, but 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:34.399 not asking them for their permission to do anything subterranean. 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:36.960 This is based on that assumption that they must know 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:37.520 about it. 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:40.280 How would we find out whether they know about it, 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:42.800 because you'd be pretty confronting for them if they didn't 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:46.080 and we turned up there, Well. 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:47.960 We can't find out whether they know. We just have 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:50.560 to front up. But what are the chances they don't? 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:54.879 And he clearly feels for the people living at that 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:58.560 address in Illawong if the police are going to visit 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:02.000 and do a proper search under concrete there, and his 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:04.280 view is that it should be done quietly. 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:08.520 I've long thought that it would be beneficial to that 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:13.120 family that you've siftly turn up there and you've put 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:14.879 a building shine out in the front, as if that 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:17.639 family's doing some renovations, and you'd go in there and 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:20.639 quietly do the work you're playing close. Why would you 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:22.720 turn up there with all the fans there and crap? 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:25.160 So make a song and dance about it. 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:28.840 You really acknowledge that, but made that ship has sailed. 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.000 Neighbors will just put on social media. Word'll get out 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:35.720 and then about half an hour you'll have TV crews 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:38.399 there because they'll realize what's going on. It's just not 0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:43.800 possible anymore to do this quietly. In view, I reckon, Yeah, 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:46.720 it's just a show, all right, mate, I'll let you go. 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.560 You're on a building site, yep. Yeah, make sure you 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:52.520 get the levels right of course. 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:53.639 Mate. 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:58.440 Before we reconstructed the five days of the two thousand 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:02.600 and two Inquest with episodes that were faithful to the evidence, 0:23:03.080 --> 0:23:06.480 you heard a lot from John Winfield's nineteen ninety eight 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:10.760 record of interview with the then detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor. 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:14.920 That interview was held in the Ballaner police station, right 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:21.040 near the start of Glenn's reinvestigation of Bromwin's disappearance. You'll 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:26.440 recall that over multiple episodes, Glenn re enacted his questions 0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:30.480 from the official transcript of that interview, and a voice 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:34.280 actor for John Winfield read the answers, which the real 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:38.720 John gave. Here's a reminder of the very start of 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:41.440 that interview. It's from episode fourteen. 0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:47.439 The interview has commenced at eight fifty two AM. For 0:23:47.520 --> 0:23:50.960 the purpose of the tape record, Can everyone present state 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:55.040 their full name on Detective Sergeant Glenn William Taylor. 0:23:56.000 --> 0:24:01.640 Detective Senior Constable Wayne Tembe introduced himself, and John followed. 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:03.680 Suit Jonathan Winfield. 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:08.919 Mister Winfield. As I've already explained to you, Detective Temby 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:13.280 and I are making inquiries in relation to the disappearance 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:18.159 of your wife Broman Joey Winfield on or about the 0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:22.760 sixteenth of May nineteen ninety three from Lennox Head. We're 0:24:22.800 --> 0:24:25.280 going to ask you some further questions about this matter. 0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:29.720 These questions and any answers that you care to give 0:24:29.840 --> 0:24:35.760 to those questions will be recorded electronically, both on video 0:24:35.800 --> 0:24:40.439 and audio cassette tapes as the interview takes place. Do 0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:41.359 you understand that? 0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:48.600 Yeah. Now, some former and serving police and several lawyers 0:24:48.600 --> 0:24:52.600 with experience in criminal defense work have been in touch 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:57.480 since the interview between John and Glenn Taylor featured heavily 0:24:57.640 --> 0:25:01.760 in the podcast. They wanted to raise something that is 0:25:02.080 --> 0:25:06.640 troubling if true. They are concerned that the formal interview 0:25:06.680 --> 0:25:10.800 which John did might not be admissible evidence in the 0:25:10.840 --> 0:25:15.520 event of any prosecution. The reason for their concern revolves 0:25:15.600 --> 0:25:20.320 around something known as a caution. A suspect needs to 0:25:20.320 --> 0:25:23.960 be alerted to his or her rights, one of which 0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:27.479 is the right to silence, the right to say nothing 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:32.919 at all. The record shows that Glenn did not caution John, 0:25:33.400 --> 0:25:35.919 did not tell him that he had the right to 0:25:35.960 --> 0:25:39.679 say nothing at all. As you'll hear later, that was 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:43.960 a deliberate decision by Glenn. He had his reasons for 0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:49.520 omitting the caution, and he explains those reasons. Ultimately, it 0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:53.840 could be up to a judge to determine. Karina Burgers 0:25:53.920 --> 0:25:58.840 spoke to Rachel Fisher, a lawyer experienced in criminal defense cases, 0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:03.160 about the caution, why it is important, and what can 0:26:03.240 --> 0:26:08.000 happen under certain circumstances if no caution is given. 0:26:08.280 --> 0:26:10.960 Can you explain what a caution is? 0:26:11.640 --> 0:26:12.440 What does that mean? 0:26:13.359 --> 0:26:17.600 So a caution is a legal requirement that is to 0:26:17.640 --> 0:26:20.480 be given to an individual who is in police custody 0:26:20.560 --> 0:26:26.440 being interviewed. It is a phrase of wording that essentially 0:26:26.680 --> 0:26:30.080 is critical and very important to make sure the person 0:26:30.320 --> 0:26:34.920 being interviewed understands that they essentially don't have to participate 0:26:34.960 --> 0:26:38.719 in the process, and they don't have to answer any questions, 0:26:39.119 --> 0:26:41.080 and if they choose to do that, or if they 0:26:41.200 --> 0:26:44.280 choose to participate in the interview, that anything that they 0:26:44.440 --> 0:26:51.440 say can and usually is used in any proceedings against them. 0:26:51.960 --> 0:26:56.199 In what circumstances should a person be given a caution? 0:26:56.320 --> 0:27:01.159 If they're being interviewed by police, in every circumstance they 0:27:01.160 --> 0:27:02.080 should be cautioned. 0:27:03.480 --> 0:27:07.639 Rachel works with Street and Lawyers in Sydney. In twenty 0:27:07.720 --> 0:27:10.800 twenty four, she was recognized by members of the profession 0:27:10.840 --> 0:27:14.280 as a criminal law rising star in what's called the 0:27:14.359 --> 0:27:15.480 Doyle's Guide. 0:27:16.040 --> 0:27:19.720 As a defense solicitor, Rachel, would you make an application 0:27:20.560 --> 0:27:25.440 to exclude an interview in which a caution wasn't given 0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:27.280 to a person? Would you do that? As a matter 0:27:27.320 --> 0:27:28.160 of course. 0:27:28.280 --> 0:27:30.479 It would really come down to whether or not I 0:27:30.600 --> 0:27:32.760 was at the view that the interview or anything that 0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:36.879 was contained within the interview was essentially problematic or against 0:27:36.960 --> 0:27:40.080 my client's interests. If my client is sitting down with 0:27:40.160 --> 0:27:43.720 police and making what we refer to as admissions, which 0:27:43.760 --> 0:27:47.560 is statements that go against their interest, then absolutely it 0:27:47.600 --> 0:27:49.680 would be the first thing that I do. My first 0:27:49.760 --> 0:27:52.640 question is did you participate in an interview? And if 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:55.159 they say yes, well, one of the first things that 0:27:55.200 --> 0:27:57.560 I check in the transcript or the recording of that 0:27:57.600 --> 0:27:59.440 interview is whether or not they were given a caution, 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:02.800 because if they weren't given a caution, it is very 0:28:02.840 --> 0:28:06.560 standard for me to make an application to exclude it. Obviously, 0:28:06.600 --> 0:28:09.399 I'll make the strategic call to not make the application 0:28:09.960 --> 0:28:13.840