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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Brown contains course

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian Michael Drury

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Speaker 1: was the undercover cop they Couldn't Corrupt, a plain clothes

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Speaker 1: detective with a relentless determination to expose organized crime in

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Speaker 1: Sydney's underworld. His name is synonymous in Australian police and

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Speaker 1: crime circles.

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Speaker 2: Ray had morning onto GB.

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Speaker 3: It was ten past six in the evening on June sixth,

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Speaker 3: nine eighty four on the North side of Sydney, and

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Speaker 3: the unbelievable happened. A serving police officer who'd been undercover

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Speaker 3: about to testify in a giant drug case. We shot

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Speaker 3: in his own home in front of his wife and

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Speaker 3: two small children. When the undercover drug squad officer woke

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Speaker 3: for his CAMA twelve days later, he was in no

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Speaker 3: doubt that a fellow officer, Roger Rogerson, was involved in

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Speaker 3: that assassination attempt.

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Speaker 1: My colleague Matt Condon told me that his friend Michael

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Speaker 1: Drury had been paying a lot of attention to the

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Speaker 1: evidence in our podcast investigation into Bromin's disappearance. Matt confided

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Speaker 1: that the long retired detective had focused his still sharp

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Speaker 1: inquisitive brain on some of the angles in the case.

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Speaker 1: Mick Drury also knows Lennox Head well. The force's most

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Speaker 1: bent cop was Roger Rogerson in the nineteen eighties. A

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Speaker 1: skilled detective but a sociopathic killer who had crossed the

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Speaker 1: dark side. Rogerson ordered the execution of his fellow officer,

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Speaker 1: Michael Drury. Many years later, The Sixty Minutes reporter Liz

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Speaker 1: Hayes took Mick Drury back to his old home in

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Speaker 1: which he was shot twice and almost died.

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Speaker 4: This is the kitchen and the kitchen window, of course,

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Speaker 4: and unfortunately this is where it all happened. The first

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Speaker 4: shot hit me straight through the stomach, into the area

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Speaker 4: just next to the backbone and lodged between the ribs,

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Speaker 4: and the second shot hit me alongside the heart and

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Speaker 4: underneath the shoulder blade.

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Speaker 1: He has been living in northern New South Wales for years.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to pick his investigative brain. We caught up

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Speaker 1: at a roadside cafe. One of the first things Mick

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Speaker 1: confided to me there was his awe at the potential

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Speaker 1: for true crime podcast investigations to solve old cold cases.

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Speaker 5: And when you've got exposure Australia wide and even overseas

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Speaker 5: for that matter, you've got tens and tens and tens

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Speaker 5: of thousands of people listening to it, that one a

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Speaker 5: positive and truthful outcome, and someone out there may have

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Speaker 5: a fresh idea. Why would a loving, dedicated mother, for

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Speaker 5: no reason whatsoever, after one so called private phone call

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Speaker 5: in the bedroom, come out the front and say to

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Speaker 5: John Winfield, oh, by the way, I'm off see you later,

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Speaker 5: A wave to him, close the door and off into

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Speaker 5: the never never and be never seen later. Absolute bullshit.

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Speaker 5: That is not correct. I state my entire career on that.

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Speaker 5: It just does not ring true. I would love to

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Speaker 5: interview him to get his version of the store.

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Speaker 1: Mick Drury zeroed in on a crucial period of fewer

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Speaker 1: than twenty four hours, the period from when John arrived

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Speaker 1: in Lennox Head after the flight from Sydney on Sunday

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Speaker 1: evening May sixteenth, until the Monday afternoon when he turned

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Speaker 1: up at Andy and Michelle's house in the Shire.

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Speaker 5: On that Sunday, he was awake for most of the day,

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Speaker 5: had short notice. He caught a plane from Sydney to Ballana.

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Speaker 5: I find this interesting. He went to the police station

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Speaker 5: and forecast them that he was going to his house

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Speaker 5: with some pending, perhaps a verbal drama with his wife

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Speaker 5: because they weren't on good terms. John Winfel was a

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Speaker 5: dedicated surfboard rider. He brings the surfboard up by plane

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Speaker 5: from Sydney, which would indicate is coming home for several days,

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Speaker 5: and he leaves later that night. There is no doubt

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Speaker 5: in my mind that something very disturbing happened that night

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Speaker 5: after driving almost non stop back to Sydney that night

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Speaker 5: with amazing stamina and fatigue that I would suggest zero notice.

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Speaker 5: He's requested that the mother in law take care of

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Speaker 5: the two children, and that freed him up with the

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Speaker 5: motor car to do whatever he wanted, unobserved and unsupervised.

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Speaker 5: Now that worries me, because then that means he's got

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Speaker 5: freedom of use of the motor car whatever may be

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Speaker 5: disturbing in the car. I would suggest he was concealed

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Speaker 5: in the boot in the hysterics of the moment that

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Speaker 5: he must have been going through through in scooping up

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Speaker 5: the children, in leaving the house in an extremely untidy condition,

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Speaker 5: when he's realized whatever this disaster may be, he has

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Speaker 5: jumped in his car and driven non stop to Sydney.

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Speaker 5: Something very serious has happened. He has taken flight away

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Speaker 5: from the area.

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Speaker 1: What about the risk of driving a vehicle that's unregistered

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Speaker 1: some eight hundred odd kilometers with a body in the boot.

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Speaker 5: As you put it, If there was a body in

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Speaker 5: the boot, there is a risk involved. But I would

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Speaker 5: suggest Sunday night at twelve midnight, one, two, three, four,

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Speaker 5: five in the morning. You don't have that many highway

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Speaker 5: patrol in those days on the old wading, very slow

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Speaker 5: driving Pacific Highway.

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Speaker 1: And in those days, would an unregistered vehicle have been

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Speaker 1: immediately obvious to a highway patrol.

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Speaker 5: No, he would have known that. He's a man of

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Speaker 5: a high degree of intellect. I've got to give him that,

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Speaker 5: and he's got more opportunity and flexibility of doing something

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Speaker 5: sinister like disposing of a body in the Sydney area.

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Speaker 1: That's where John flourished a receipt for petrol purchased for

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Speaker 1: the overnight drive from Sandstone Crescent to Sydney with the

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Speaker 1: two girls. He produced it to Andy Reid and Michelle Reid.

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Speaker 5: I think it's very disturbing behavior. When you're the suspect

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Speaker 5: of a crime and you have this ridiculous example of

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Speaker 5: alibi construction on the balance of probability does not work

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Speaker 5: in your favor. It is a mark against you. It's

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Speaker 5: alibi construction by someone who's trying to cover their tracks.

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Speaker 5: Bromlin actually had a little bit of a background in banking,

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Speaker 5: et cetera, so she would understand the format of a check.

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Speaker 5: Back to front. There he is, five years later, being

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Speaker 5: interviewed by the police to do a formal statement or interview.

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Speaker 5: John Winfield produces this check and claims he founded on

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Speaker 5: the kitchen table five years earlier when he went up

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Speaker 5: there the second time with her signature on it, and

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Speaker 5: it should not have been her signature. Is that correct?

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Speaker 1: Didn't need her signature? Correct?

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Speaker 5: Correct? Why would he keep that check for five years?

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Speaker 5: Why would he keep a petrol docket five years? This

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Speaker 5: is what's called alibi construction at its finest. It takes

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Speaker 5: my breath away. This is nonsense.

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Speaker 1: So you're seeing now a pattern of alibi constructions. Oh yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: Mick Drury circled back to John's hasty departure from the

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Speaker 1: house at Sandstone Crescent, on Sunday night, and then John's

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Speaker 1: telephone call from Sydney to his neighbor Murray Nolan two

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Speaker 1: days later, asking Murray to break into the house.

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Speaker 5: John was very obsessive with the hygiene and placement of

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Speaker 5: things around the house that he owned at Lennox Head. Yes,

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Speaker 5: now this is important. I believe that he is obsessive

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Speaker 5: compulsive in his behavior in that regard. The next door

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Speaker 5: neighbor is instructed by John Winfield to go and knock

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Speaker 5: on the door of the house and if there's no answer,

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Speaker 5: if they be break in, and it's a bit of

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Speaker 5: a mess here there and everywhere, the children's bedrooms, the

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Speaker 5: kitchen area, and John some days earlier has driven back

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Speaker 5: to Sydney and left his house in a mess. I

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Speaker 5: find leaving the house in that state or condition diametrically

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Speaker 5: opposed to the normality of John Winfield, which is obsessive

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Speaker 5: compulsive in that regard what was going through his mind.

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Speaker 5: It is so ridiculous that it is, in my opinion humble,

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Speaker 5: as it is absolutely compelling evidence of a very disturbing nature.

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Speaker 1: Turning to that Monday in Sydney, he has dropped his

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Speaker 1: daughters off at his ex wife's house, where his mother

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Speaker 1: in law answers the door, and no doubt a bit bewildered,

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Speaker 1: agrees to accept the children for several hours. We then

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Speaker 1: surmise in the podcast that John may have gone directly

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Speaker 1: to this building site at a place called Illawong in

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Speaker 1: the Shire where he had been working as a brick

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Speaker 1: lath and part of our suspicion over Illawong is based

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Speaker 1: on a fairly recent discovery which the police and the

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Speaker 1: coroner didn't know about many years ago, and that discovery

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Speaker 1: being council documents from nineteen ninety three showing that the

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Speaker 1: inspectors of the council had approved just days before Bromwin

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Speaker 1: disappeared the pouring of concrete for the patio and the

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Speaker 1: garage slab.

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Speaker 5: And that's wonderful evidence about the date for approval the

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Speaker 5: pouring of the concrete.

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Speaker 1: It's possible that Bromwin was put underneath the plastic and

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Speaker 1: the rio that was all there ready for the concrete pause,

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Speaker 1: and then the paws have occurred and she remains there entombed.

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Speaker 5: It's far easier to dig a hole in an area

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Speaker 5: like that than it is somewhere around Lennox Head. The

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Speaker 5: grave only has to be twelve inches deep and from

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Speaker 5: their backfill, was Sad put the plastic over in the

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Speaker 5: rio and it's done. It wouldn't be the first time

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Speaker 5: our body's been located in that type of location.

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Speaker 1: Is that a site that you, if you're a detective

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Speaker 1: on this case, would regard as low, medium, or high

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Speaker 1: priority based on the circumstantial evidence you've heard in the podcast.

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Speaker 5: My view is when I look at the movement to

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Speaker 5: John Winfield from that fabled Sunday night, it is absolutely

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Speaker 5: critical to find out what may be happening underneath. That

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Speaker 5: is a vital area of consideration for intense forensic examination.

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Speaker 1: Listening to the podcast as closely as you do as

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Speaker 1: a retired detective of impeccable standing and knowing the area

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Speaker 1: Lenox and Ballana surrounding beaches, do you feel a connection

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Speaker 1: to this case that has led you to volunteer this.

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Speaker 5: Help Look Podcasts are very very new forms of educational

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Speaker 5: entertainment in this modern day for everyone in the community.

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Speaker 5: It gives an opportunity for those tens of thousands of

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Speaker 5: people out there in Australia and perhaps overseas to send

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Speaker 5: you emails or ring you up or one of your

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Speaker 5: staff members and say what about this?

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Speaker 1: What about that?

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Speaker 5: We're doing a process of critically analyzing the facts that

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Speaker 5: we're aware of. You have an investigational team of ten

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Speaker 5: thousand or more. That's one hell of a team. This

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Speaker 5: is a twenty first century version of Sherlock Holmes before.

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Speaker 1: You read the final chapter. When investigations go bad at

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Speaker 1: an early stage, there's a tendency for people to speculate

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Speaker 1: that it must have been because of corruption.

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Speaker 5: With the benefit of hindsight, it's very easy to be

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Speaker 5: critical of an individual or what may or may not

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Speaker 5: or should or should not have been done. We're not

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Speaker 5: dealing with a shoplifting from the local corner store. We're

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Speaker 5: dealing with a suspected murder. It doesn't come more serious

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Speaker 5: than a suspected murder. I happen to know retired Detective

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Speaker 5: Sergeant Graham Diskin personally. He actually joined the cops with

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Speaker 5: me the same class. I haven't seen him for forty

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Speaker 5: years or more. I won't go into the way his

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Speaker 5: mind works. I don't want to be unfairly critical of anyone,

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Speaker 5: but I can tell you now something very disturbing happened

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Speaker 5: on that Sunday night.

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Speaker 1: We do not know whether the owners of the Illawong

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Speaker 1: house share our suspicions and the suspicions of thousands of listeners.

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Speaker 1: For all we know, those owners have never heard of

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Speaker 1: the Bromwin podcast. But I have talked to Cariina and

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Speaker 1: Andy about whether perhaps we should visit, introduce ourselves to

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Speaker 1: the owners and just tell them about everything.

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Speaker 6: I was just thinking back to what Maddie said one day.

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Speaker 6: I think you and Maddie and Andy Hedley were in

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Speaker 6: the car driving away from Illowong, and Maddie said, can

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Speaker 6: you imagine if someone came up to your door and Toddy,

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Speaker 6: this may be a person underneath your what?

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Speaker 7: I don't know if i'd like to hear that.

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Speaker 6: How would you even approach that? I guess I worry

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Speaker 6: that we might cause them some angst and concern at

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Speaker 6: a time when we can't do anything much to alleviate that.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it would be transparent of us and

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Speaker 1: talked so much about this property to talk to the

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Speaker 1: owners without putting any pressure on them. We can just

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Speaker 1: talk to them on background, just a conversation to fill

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Speaker 1: in any gaps they might have.

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Speaker 6: We don't know what the current state of play is

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Speaker 6: with the police, so we can't really give them particularly

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Speaker 6: up to date information or tell them what the lie

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Speaker 6: of the land is at the moment. I mean, obviously

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Speaker 6: they could turn us away. That's not the end of

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Speaker 6: the world for us. But I'm a bit worried about

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Speaker 6: the effect that it could have on them as a family,

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Speaker 6: especially if they have children. If they know nothing at

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Speaker 6: the minute and we sort of go and burst that bubble,

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Speaker 6: then it could potentially cause them quite a lot of

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Speaker 6: stress and anxiety, I think.

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Speaker 1: But if we're assuming that the police will go there

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Speaker 1: to search, then that bubble is going to be burst anyway.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it will. But again I think there's a difference

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Speaker 6: between having your bubble burst by law enforcement. They could

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Speaker 6: really welcome contact from us and might have been say, oh,

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Speaker 6: we've been waiting for you to get in touch. But

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Speaker 6: on the other hand, it might just come completely out

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Speaker 6: of the blue and be a real shock.

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Speaker 1: But what if nothing's going to happen despite the letter

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Speaker 1: to the state coroner, despite the new evidence pointing to Illowong,

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Speaker 1: nothing happens. Let's hypothetically say that we have chosen to

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Speaker 1: avoid the family at Illowong, to knock go and knock

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Speaker 1: on the door and introduce ourselves in good faith, and

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Speaker 1: then the promin series comes to an end. The police

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Speaker 1: keept diverted elsewhere. You and I are diverted elsewhere onto

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Speaker 1: another murder investigation, and Illawong goes completely overlooked, and we

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Speaker 1: never ever spoke to the family, who may say, look,

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Speaker 1: if the police have no interest in searching our property.

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Speaker 6: Will you and I see what you mean about the

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Speaker 6: fact that people might move on and get distracted by

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Speaker 6: other things. But it is something we could revisit down

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Speaker 6: the track if there was no police action ultimately taken.

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Speaker 1: Do you agree that it's more likely than not the

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Speaker 1: family living there knows about the history of that property.

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Speaker 6: There's definitely a possibility that they know about it.

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Speaker 1: What is the worst thing could happen by us going

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Speaker 1: there and introducing ourselves and just offering to answer questions

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Speaker 1: and telling them that in the event police don't search,

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Speaker 1: we'd like to come back and talk to them.

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Speaker 6: The worst thing that can happen is that we approach

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Speaker 6: the owners at the Llowong house now at this stage

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Speaker 6: when there's not a real need to go there, and

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Speaker 6: they are unhappy about that contact from us, And then

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Speaker 6: down the track the authorities might decide not to go

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Speaker 6: to Illawong, and we really do need to go in

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Speaker 6: at that point if we want to try to bring

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Speaker 6: about a search of the site, and the owners might

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Speaker 6: be less inclined to engage with us at that time

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Speaker 6: if we've sort of irritated them now through an unnecessary approach.

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Speaker 1: I was going to stand right behind you when you

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Speaker 1: knocked on the door, just.

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Speaker 8: Time it off and made it my responsibility.

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Speaker 1: Andy was going about his own building job when I

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Speaker 1: reached him to talk about it. The owners of that

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Speaker 1: house in Illawong must now know that it's their house

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Speaker 1: that has been discussed in the podcast as being a

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Speaker 1: possible burial ground.

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Speaker 9: For Bromwind thinks, so, yeah, don't don't know that.

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Speaker 10: It wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me.

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Speaker 1: Your all, how did you feel about you and I am,

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Speaker 1: possibly Karina going up to that property and offering to

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Speaker 1: answer any of their questions based on the that they

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Speaker 1: do know and we're not trying to cause them trouble,

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Speaker 1: and we have the one to identify the property really

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Speaker 1: just as a good will gesture, and we'll ask them,

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Speaker 1: how would you feel about the police coming here? If

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Speaker 1: that's their decision, but we won't be saying to them

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Speaker 1: we want to do it ourselves. We wouldn't be interfering

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Speaker 1: with the site in doing that, we wouldn't be contaminating anything.

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Speaker 1: We'd simply be knocking on the door and offering to

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Speaker 1: have a chat to them about what's been unfolding, but

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Speaker 1: not asking them for their permission to do anything subterranean.

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Speaker 1: This is based on that assumption that they must know

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Speaker 1: about it.

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Speaker 9: How would we find out whether they know about it,

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Speaker 9: because you'd be pretty confronting for them if they didn't

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Speaker 9: and we turned up there, Well.

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Speaker 1: We can't find out whether they know. We just have

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Speaker 1: to front up. But what are the chances they don't?

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Speaker 1: And he clearly feels for the people living at that

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Speaker 1: address in Illawong if the police are going to visit

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Speaker 1: and do a proper search under concrete there, and his

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Speaker 1: view is that it should be done quietly.

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Speaker 9: I've long thought that it would be beneficial to that

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Speaker 9: family that you've siftly turn up there and you've put

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Speaker 9: a building shine out in the front, as if that

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Speaker 9: family's doing some renovations, and you'd go in there and

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Speaker 9: quietly do the work you're playing close. Why would you

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Speaker 9: turn up there with all the fans there and crap?

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Speaker 9: So make a song and dance about it.

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Speaker 1: You really acknowledge that, but made that ship has sailed.

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Speaker 1: Neighbors will just put on social media. Word'll get out

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Speaker 1: and then about half an hour you'll have TV crews

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Speaker 1: there because they'll realize what's going on. It's just not

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Speaker 1: possible anymore to do this quietly. In view, I reckon, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just a show, all right, mate, I'll let you go.

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Speaker 1: You're on a building site, yep. Yeah, make sure you

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Speaker 1: get the levels right of course.

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Speaker 9: Mate.

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Speaker 1: Before we reconstructed the five days of the two thousand

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Speaker 1: and two Inquest with episodes that were faithful to the evidence,

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Speaker 1: you heard a lot from John Winfield's nineteen ninety eight

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Speaker 1: record of interview with the then detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor.

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Speaker 1: That interview was held in the Ballaner police station, right

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Speaker 1: near the start of Glenn's reinvestigation of Bromwin's disappearance. You'll

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Speaker 1: recall that over multiple episodes, Glenn re enacted his questions

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Speaker 1: from the official transcript of that interview, and a voice

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Speaker 1: actor for John Winfield read the answers, which the real

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Speaker 1: John gave. Here's a reminder of the very start of

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Speaker 1: that interview. It's from episode fourteen.

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Speaker 10: The interview has commenced at eight fifty two AM. For

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Speaker 10: the purpose of the tape record, Can everyone present state

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Speaker 10: their full name on Detective Sergeant Glenn William Taylor.

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Speaker 1: Detective Senior Constable Wayne Tembe introduced himself, and John followed.

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Speaker 5: Suit Jonathan Winfield.

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Speaker 10: Mister Winfield. As I've already explained to you, Detective Temby

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Speaker 10: and I are making inquiries in relation to the disappearance

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Speaker 10: of your wife Broman Joey Winfield on or about the

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Speaker 10: sixteenth of May nineteen ninety three from Lennox Head. We're

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Speaker 10: going to ask you some further questions about this matter.

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Speaker 10: These questions and any answers that you care to give

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Speaker 10: to those questions will be recorded electronically, both on video

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Speaker 10: and audio cassette tapes as the interview takes place. Do

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Speaker 10: you understand that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, some former and serving police and several lawyers

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Speaker 1: with experience in criminal defense work have been in touch

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Speaker 1: since the interview between John and Glenn Taylor featured heavily

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Speaker 1: in the podcast. They wanted to raise something that is

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Speaker 1: troubling if true. They are concerned that the formal interview

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Speaker 1: which John did might not be admissible evidence in the

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Speaker 1: event of any prosecution. The reason for their concern revolves

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Speaker 1: around something known as a caution. A suspect needs to

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Speaker 1: be alerted to his or her rights, one of which

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Speaker 1: is the right to silence, the right to say nothing

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Speaker 1: at all. The record shows that Glenn did not caution John,

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Speaker 1: did not tell him that he had the right to

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Speaker 1: say nothing at all. As you'll hear later, that was

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Speaker 1: a deliberate decision by Glenn. He had his reasons for

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Speaker 1: omitting the caution, and he explains those reasons. Ultimately, it

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Speaker 1: could be up to a judge to determine. Karina Burgers

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Speaker 1: spoke to Rachel Fisher, a lawyer experienced in criminal defense cases,

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Speaker 1: about the caution, why it is important, and what can

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Speaker 1: happen under certain circumstances if no caution is given.

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Speaker 8: Can you explain what a caution is?

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Speaker 6: What does that mean?

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Speaker 11: So a caution is a legal requirement that is to

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Speaker 11: be given to an individual who is in police custody

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Speaker 11: being interviewed. It is a phrase of wording that essentially

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Speaker 11: is critical and very important to make sure the person

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Speaker 11: being interviewed understands that they essentially don't have to participate

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Speaker 11: in the process, and they don't have to answer any questions,

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Speaker 11: and if they choose to do that, or if they

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Speaker 11: choose to participate in the interview, that anything that they

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Speaker 11: say can and usually is used in any proceedings against them.

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Speaker 6: In what circumstances should a person be given a caution?

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Speaker 6: If they're being interviewed by police, in every circumstance they

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Speaker 6: should be cautioned.

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Speaker 1: Rachel works with Street and Lawyers in Sydney. In twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four, she was recognized by members of the profession

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Speaker 1: as a criminal law rising star in what's called the

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Speaker 1: Doyle's Guide.

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Speaker 8: As a defense solicitor, Rachel, would you make an application

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Speaker 8: to exclude an interview in which a caution wasn't given

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Speaker 8: to a person? Would you do that? As a matter

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Speaker 8: of course.

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Speaker 11: It would really come down to whether or not I

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Speaker 11: was at the view that the interview or anything that

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Speaker 11: was contained within the interview was essentially problematic or against

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Speaker 11: my client's interests. If my client is sitting down with

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Speaker 11: police and making what we refer to as admissions, which

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Speaker 11: is statements that go against their interest, then absolutely it

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Speaker 11: would be the first thing that I do. My first

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Speaker 11: question is did you participate in an interview? And if

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Speaker 11: they say yes, well, one of the first things that

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Speaker 11: I check in the transcript or the recording of that

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Speaker 11: interview is whether or not they were given a caution,

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Speaker 11: because if they weren't given a caution, it is very

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Speaker 11: standard for me to make an application to exclude it. Obviously,

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Speaker 11: I'll make the strategic call to not make the application

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Speaker 11: if the interview is from my perspective, something that assists

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Speaker 11: them or makes them look better, or provides explanations for

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Speaker 11: things that I think are helpful or in their interests.

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Speaker 11: But that is quite rare.

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Speaker 6: And if someone isn't a suspect at the time of

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Speaker 6: their interview, let's say they're being treated as a witness, would.

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Speaker 8: You expect that person to be cautioned.

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Speaker 11: They don't have to be cautioned necessarily in the same

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Speaker 11: way that someone who is a protected suspect or someone

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Speaker 11: who's been arrested is. But I think it's quite important

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Speaker 11: for police to tell people that they don't have an

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Speaker 11: obligation to speak to them.

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Speaker 8: But that's as high as it's taken.

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Speaker 11: They don't have to caution them in the way because

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Speaker 11: they're not necessarily talking to police whilst being expected of

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Speaker 11: committing a crime, so they don't necessarily have the right

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Speaker 11: to silence. But they are not in the same position

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Speaker 11: as someone who's been charged or is being suspected of

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Speaker 11: committing an offense.

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Speaker 6: And hypothetically, if you were acting for someone who's interviewed

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Speaker 6: in the capacity of a witness, So they're not a

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Speaker 6: suspect at that stage, but they later go on to

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Speaker 6: become a suspect in say a murder investigation, and they

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Speaker 6: hadn't been cautioned in their initial witness interview. What do

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Speaker 6: you think you might do in that situation as a

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Speaker 6: defense solicitor for them, Well, I would absolutely look at

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Speaker 6: putting on an application to exclude it. And one of

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Speaker 6: the basis upon which to do that is to try

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Speaker 6: to ascertain and understand whether or not the police actually

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Speaker 6: did have a reasonable suspicion or a suspicion that they

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Speaker 6: were involved in some way. Police can often speak to

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Speaker 6: people and say, I just want to hear your side

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Speaker 6: of the story. I don't necessarily think that you've done

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Speaker 6: anything wrong, and treat them like a witness, speak to

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Speaker 6: them as if they are a witness and haven't given

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Speaker 6: them their rights, whereas the police state of mind and

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Speaker 6: the reason that they're doing certain things is critical. So

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Speaker 6: if there is anything that I would discover, usually through

439
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 6: a subpoena of police notebooks, police indices, that would indicate

440
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 6: that there might be some reason that the police have

441
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 6: a suspicion about this individual and they haven't treated them

442
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 6: like they are a suspect and they haven't given them

443
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 6: their rights, but there could be something in the back

444
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 6: of their mind that might be raising that suspicion. I

445
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 6: would absolutely be putting on an application to exclude it

446
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 6: on the basis that the police have improperly obtained an interview.

447
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,719
Speaker 6: It doesn't necessarily mean if they're not cautioned that anything

448
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 6: that they say is automatically excluded.

449
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 11: There's no guarantee because that application is balancing test. The

450
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 11: law says that sometimes the desirability of admitting evidence that

451
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 11: is improperly or unlawfully obtained outwighs the undesirability of losing

452
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 11: evidence that's what we refer to is really probative or

453
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 11: really strong. So it's a balancing exercise by the court.

454
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 8: And why is.

455
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 6: A police caution during an interview so important.

456
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 11: That requirement is underpinned by a fundamental principle in our

457
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 11: criminal law system, which is the right to silence. People

458
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 11: need to understand that if they are being investigated or

459
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 11: suspected of committing a crime, that they have a right

460
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 11: to silence. They don't have to answer police questions, and

461
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 11: they don't have to essentially assist the authorities who are

462
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 11: looking to investigate whether or not they have committed an offense.

463
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 11: The caution is essentially the practical way in which those

464
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 11: rights are secured.

465
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: Of course, every case is different with unique circumstances. At

466
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: the time of the interview in Ballana Police Station, Glenn

467
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: Taylor was an experienced detective. He had investigated and helped

468
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: solve murders while working for the homicide squad in the

469
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: city of Newcastle, north of Sydney. As you'll hear, Glenn

470
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: still believes that it was appropriate for him to not

471
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: caution John because of the interview occurring at a very

472
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: early stage of Glenn's investigation. However, he acknowledges that a

473
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: criminal defense lawyer would possibly try to bring a challenge

474
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: about it and seek to knock all the evidence from

475
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: John's interview out of a possible future prosecution.

476
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 12: Joel winf was the very first person that was the

477
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 12: interview just to commit aversion from him, And that's why

478
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 12: I did an issue a cause. If you've got a suspect,

479
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 12: you may have enough evidence to charge a person early

480
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,719
Speaker 12: in the interview, you would administer a formal call that

481
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 12: they don't have to say anything unless they wished to,

482
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 12: as anything they say may later be given in evidence.

483
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 12: So we didn't use that caution because at that point

484
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 12: in time we simply didn't have any formal statements taken

485
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 12: and we had very little information other than what was

486
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 12: in the running sheets of Detective Sergeant Diskin. There's a

487
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 12: little bit of a fine line administering a caution that

488
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 12: this stage we were not at that level. I mean,

489
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 12: we didn't have not one statement from the previous investigation

490
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 12: with all we had was running sheets from Diskin to

491
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 12: say they'd spoken to him and they've spoken to the

492
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 12: neighbor and she hadn't touched the bank accounts. But we

493
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 12: didn't have anything concrete or been written for that would

494
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 12: want him getting a caution. So that's why the commencement

495
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 12: of the interview I still wanted him to be legally

496
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 12: bound to say what he's going to say, to the

497
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 12: best of his knowledge is the truth.

498
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: Glenn is talking here about what he read to John

499
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: at the start of the interview. Here's another reminder from

500
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 1: episode fourteen.

501
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 10: I'm just going to read this onto the record here

502
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 10: and if you understand it, I'll just get you to

503
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 10: acknowledge that the statement made by you accurately sets out

504
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 10: the evidence which you will be prepared, if necessary, to

505
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 10: give in court as a witness. The statement is true

506
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 10: to the best of your knowledge and belief, and you

507
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 10: make it knowing that if it is tended in evidence,

508
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 10: you shall be liable to prosecution if you are rawfully

509
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 10: stated in it anything which you know to be false

510
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 10: or do not believe to be true to you give

511
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 10: an undertaking to tell the truth in his interview.

512
00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, so that paradought read out to him is

513
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 12: like a declaration by any witness. When you interviewed in

514
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 12: New South Wales and when you take a statement from somebody,

515
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 12: you're saying that what you're going to say in the

516
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 12: statement is the truth, and you know you could be

517
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 12: prosecuted if you're telling deliberate laws. But in a legal sense,

518
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 12: you have not made up your mind at that point

519
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 12: that they're sufficient to.

520
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: Charge without a caution. Is that record of your interview

521
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: with him admissible in a murder prosecution?

522
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 12: Hypothetically, Well, that would be opened to a court a

523
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 12: judge to decide that at the time that was taken

524
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 12: in good faith. I believe it would be admissible because

525
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 12: as an investigator, we had not made up our mind

526
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 12: that there was sufficient evidence at that point, because we

527
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 12: vientually hadn't interviewed anyone. And then, when a detective trained,

528
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 12: you should only administer a caution when you believe there's

529
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 12: sufficient evidence that crime's been committed and you have sufficient

530
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 12: evidence to wright this person being charged. When we interviewed him,

531
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 12: he was like everyone else we're interviewing early an investigation.

532
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 12: He was a witness. There's something myself and Wayne Tenby

533
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 12: would have considered before we even brought him into the

534
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 12: police station. Okay, what do we know to this point?

535
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 12: There was certainly a lot of things we didn't know.

536
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 12: It's sometimes good to get someone committed to a version

537
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 12: early in the peace, before we've interviewed all the other witnesses,

538
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 12: and after you've got a person committed to a version

539
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 12: you can come back to them later. But by the

540
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 12: time we finished the investigation, it was clearly of the

541
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 12: view that he's either got to charge with murder now

542
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 12: and that was considered, or let's test all the evidence

543
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 12: before a coroner and then put a submission to the

544
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 12: coroner that the coroner referred to the DPP, which we

545
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 12: thought would be the more appropriate way to go about it.

546
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,240
Speaker 12: We could have invited him back for a second interview,

547
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 12: but we strongly believe by that time that he would

548
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 12: have had legal representation and said no, I'm not willing

549
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 12: to be interviewed, not willing to answer any further questions.

550
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 12: Because we would have then had to give him a caution.

551
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 12: He would know then that he's no longer just being

552
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 12: able to be treated as a weakness. He's going to

553
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 12: be treated as a suspect. There's no set thing in

554
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,720
Speaker 12: police rules and instructions as to who should interview first.

555
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 12: There's benefits probably both ways. If we had gone the

556
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 12: other way around and interviewed everyone else and then invited

557
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 12: him in for an interview, I feel pretty confident that

558
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 12: he would have been legally represented or advised was solicitor

559
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 12: not to answer any questions we would get no version

560
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 12: from him whatsoever. That's my belief. You were to closed

561
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 12: up shop and said no, I'm not going to answer

562
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 12: anything because you clearly think I've murdered Bromlin. I believe

563
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 12: myself personally it could be it should be still admissible,

564
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 12: because we had not come to any reasonable belief that

565
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 12: we're going to charge him. Even at that point or

566
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 12: even later, we needed to gather evidence. We certainly had

567
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 12: some suspicion because there was red flags flying everywhere that

568
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 12: this is more than just a missing person.

569
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 1: Retired New South Wales homicide detective Stuart Wilkins played a

570
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: key role in the investigation of the serial killer Ivan Malatt.

571
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 1: But I spoke to Stuart in December twenty seventeen about

572
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 1: the Chris Dawson matter because in January nineteen ninety one,

573
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: Stuart Wilkins was a relatively junior detective and he went

574
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: to the Gold Coast with the season Detective Sergeant Paul

575
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: Mager to conduct a formal recorded interview with Chris Dawson

576
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:34,439
Speaker 1: over his wife Lynn's disappearance eight years earlier. Stuart went

577
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: on to help solve many murders in the homicide squad

578
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: in New South Wales. Here's what he told me shortly

579
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: before Christmas twenty seventeen, as we sat at the kitchen

580
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: table in his home and he recounted that nineteen ninety

581
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: one interview with Chris Dawson.

582
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 13: And you'll see during the interview he was cautioned did

583
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 13: he need not answer any further questions and the rules

584
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 13: of evidence are quite clear our minds we had potentially

585
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 13: enough evidence to heading down a criminal path.

586
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,720
Speaker 1: The caution was given at around the half way mark

587
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,439
Speaker 1: of the police interview. The then detective Sergeant Paul Magar.

588
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 14: Says, Chris, I'm going to ask you questions, a series

589
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 14: of questions now, but before I do, I want you

590
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 14: to understand that you're not obliged to answer these questions

591
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 14: unless you wish to do so, because anything you do

592
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 14: say will be recorded and may later be used in

593
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 14: evidence at court. I'm not saying that it will be,

594
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 14: but it may be. Do you understand that.

595
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 13: Yeah, So, anything that he said after that time was

596
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 13: given to us after a caution was given to him,

597
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 13: and the caution years, of course, that anything you say

598
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 13: will be used or will or can be used an

599
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:46,479
Speaker 13: interview for court.

600
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 15: Lord.

601
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: The video recording and transcript from that interview which Chris

602
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: Dawson did in nineteen ninety one with detectives Stuart Wilkins

603
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: and Paul Magar, were admissible in Dawson's Murder Trap in

604
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, and those documents were important parts of

605
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 1: the prosecution's evidence all those years later.

606
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 13: The law expects us as investigators to ensure that if

607
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 13: we think we've got enough evidence to at least put

608
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 13: a charge or put someone before a court in any format,

609
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 13: that we should caution them before we actually speak to them.

610
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 13: And I've been in a number of homicide investigations where

611
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 13: unfortunately that caution wasn't delivered prior to police asking questions

612
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 13: of suspects, and the actual information and the answers to

613
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,720
Speaker 13: those questions have been precluded from being accepted the court

614
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 13: because of the very rules of evidence.

615
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: It is very difficult and it gets frustrated.

616
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 13: I remember another case where there was the execution murder

617
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 13: of an X and his partners actually had taken out

618
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 13: a contract and actually killed at Porchat. We interviewed the

619
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 13: suspect and whilst he wasn't a suspect at the time,

620
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 13: the law and the legal process was that we should

621
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 13: afford that he was a suspect no matter what information

622
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 13: we had of so we lengthy in detailed interview of

623
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 13: him that unfortunately got precluded to evidence.

624
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 1: I told Andy Reid and his wife Michelle of the

625
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: potential complications with the nineteen ninety eighth interview of John

626
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: Winfield at Ballana Police Station. It's giving them that notification

627
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: up front, the caution words like the words that you

628
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: have to use you have the right to ride silent

629
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 1: to ensure that what is said in that interview can

630
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 1: be admissible. Otherwise defense lawyers will say, well, can't use it.

631
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:44,919
Speaker 1: I asked a former police officer with legal qualifications.

632
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 12: To read the record of interview.

633
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: It is possible that despite there being what we believe

634
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: is evidence of deceptive answers and lies in the interview,

635
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: they may not actually be admissible at all in the

636
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 1: event of any case. Maybe that was part of the

637
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 1: consideration of the original DPP.

638
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 16: Well, we didn't actually get a specific reason. We only

639
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 16: just got a very generalized reason that they weren't going

640
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 16: for it. You might be quite aware that anything he

641
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 16: said in that interview is not going to be able

642
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 16: to be used anyway. This might be the reason he

643
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 16: says things like the little or blow over. That's a

644
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 16: bit of a bummer.

645
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 13: It's just my knowing.

646
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: It's a double edged sword, isn't it. Yeah, it's just ridiculous.

647
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: Andy and Michelle have given me a copy of a

648
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: letter they received from Glenn Taylor in two thousand and three,

649
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 1: one year after the inquest. At that time, Glenn had

650
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 1: recently retired as Ballina's Detective Sergeant of Police. Glenn has

651
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: not been able to let Bromin's case go. He is

652
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 1: still offering help and advice, even where it throws a

653
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: poor light on police and on the badge that he

654
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:12,439
Speaker 1: wore with pride. Glenn has been challenged in Ballina by

655
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: serving police who are unhappy that he has spoken his

656
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: mind in the podcast, but he has also been congratulated

657
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 1: by retired and serving police who hope that it will

658
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 1: make a difference. Glen agreed to read some of his

659
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: two thousand and three letter. It was sent soon after

660
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,280
Speaker 1: he had visited his old workplace at Ballena Police Station.

661
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 1: He went there about giving evidence in court for another case,

662
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,240
Speaker 1: but what he saw prompted him to write to Andy

663
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: and Michelle.

664
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 12: To my disappointment, I found that all of my old investigations,

665
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 12: including Broman's disappearance, have been thrown into a storage room

666
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 12: with other old court briefs. I found four boxes relating

667
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 12: to Broman's disappearance scattered all over the room. I've now

668
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 12: put them all into one area of the storage room

669
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 12: to try to keep them together, but I am not

670
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 12: sure what will happen now that I'm no longer there.

671
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 12: Another detective should have been assigned the investigation in case

672
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 12: further information comes to hand, and to keep the police

673
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 12: brief intact, but it is obvious that this hasn't happened.

674
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 12: I have obtained some documents out of the four boxes,

675
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 12: and I have enclosed a copy here for you. It

676
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 12: beggars belief that criminal investigation files for unsolved cases as

677
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 12: serious as alleged murder was thrown in police stations with

678
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 12: such a cavalier disregard for victims of crime and their

679
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 12: loved ones.

680
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor quit shortly after the two thousand and two

681
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: inquests run by Karl Milavanovitch, as he disclosed to Andy

682
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,399
Speaker 1: and Michelle read in his.

683
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 12: Letter, Unfortunately I couldn't continue in the near Southwelles Police

684
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 12: after twenty seven years aden of them. As a detective,

685
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 12: I was just mentally burnt out. I will leave in

686
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 12: hope for you that one day justice will be done

687
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 12: and John Winfield will be brought to account. Hopefully Bromlin's

688
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 12: remains will one day be found.

689
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: The preservation of evidence from unsolved homicide should be one

690
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: of the most important priorities for every police force, but

691
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 1: there have been some lamentable failures. In Romlin's case, documents disappeared,

692
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: and it also happened in the case of Lynn Dawson

693
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: now known as Lynn Simms. In late twenty seventeen, during

694
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 1: interviews with Lynn's brother Greg Simms and his wife Marilyn,

695
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: they disclosed the loss of important evidence in the original

696
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: homicide investigation we were.

697
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 17: Interview Dug I would say about nineteen eighty eight, eighty

698
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 17: nine here and.

699
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 1: Then the Regial Chrome Squad was disbanded and all their

700
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 1: paperwork and everything went to different areas. A year or

701
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: two after that.

702
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 7: Our original statements we had taken were lost.

703
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 12: They went to Missing Persons and got lost from there.

704
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 17: And we didn't have copies of those.

705
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 15: It's been a miss.

706
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 6: The whole thing's been at real miss.

707
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: Five years after I spoke to Greg and Maryland. A

708
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: retired homicide squad detective gave evidence at Chris Dawson's murder

709
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: trial in the New South Wales Supreme Court about the

710
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,720
Speaker 1: loss of evidence at an early stage in the case.

711
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: It got little attention at the time. These are the

712
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: retired detective's words. It's not his voice.

713
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 18: When we relocated from the Chatswit office into the centralized

714
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 18: system over in Surrey Hills, all our records, all our briefs,

715
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 18: everything was boxed up and taken into storage. And I

716
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 18: had later visited warehouse to try to find something else,

717
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 18: and what I found was quite a disaster. There were

718
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 18: boxes of records stacked four and five high cardboard boxes

719
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 18: from all of the crime squads and they'd been there

720
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,479
Speaker 18: on this concrete floor for so many months. The weight

721
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 18: at the top had started to collapse the bottom boxes

722
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 18: and the damp had come through the concrete. It was

723
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 18: just a mess. Really, trying to find stuff was almost impossible.

724
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 1: Glenn Taylor's experience and the disclosures like those you just

725
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: heard from a retired detective who was giving testimony under

726
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: oath begs a couple of questions, how many cases of

727
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 1: vital importance to hundreds of people will be forever unsolved

728
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: because the evidence has been lost or destroyed due to

729
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:50,280
Speaker 1: thoughtless or incompetent handling. Do the families of the victims

730
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:55,240
Speaker 1: even know that the historical records are gone. The loss

731
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 1: or destruction of evidence from unsolved cold cases is more

732
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: often than not swept under the carpet. Fortunately, the problem

733
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: has been formally recognized.

734
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 19: An eight eighth month inquiry into the police investigations of

735
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 19: unsolved gay hate deaths revealed police files were missing or lost.

736
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 19: Some exhibits, including the murder weapon in a number of cases,

737
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 19: had been lost as well.

738
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three in New

739
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 1: South Wales, a special Commission of Inquiry investigated unsolved LGBTIQ

740
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: murders and assaults and the unresponsiveness of police in many

741
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: of these cases. The inquiry was led by the then

742
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: Supreme Court Justice John Sacer, he has since retired. In

743
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: his final report, Justice Sacca called out.

744
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 20: The historical legacy of poor record and exhibit management practices

745
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:03,280
Speaker 20: concerning unsolved homicides, and he wrote in some cases entire

746
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 20: sections of investigative files appeared to be missing, with limited

747
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 20: evidence from which to discern whether records had been lost

748
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 20: or never made. Significant exhibits had often been lost or destroyed.

749
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 20: It became apparent that there were long standing problems with

750
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 20: exhibit and documentary record management within the New South Wales

751
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 20: Police Force.

752
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: Justice Sakker questioned Detective Chief Inspector David Laidlaw of the

753
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: Unsold Homicide Unit during the inquiry. We have relied on

754
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: a voice actor to read out the now retired Judge Sackers' findings,

755
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: but we do have the actual audio from the exchange

756
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 1: with Inspector laid Law during the inquiry.

757
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 21: Has it ever occurred to anyone in the New South

758
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 21: Wales Police Force at a specially funded project be in

759
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 21: urgently to take place, by way of audit of all

760
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 21: unsolved matters to find out where the records are such

761
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 21: that do exist, whether exhibits are sitting in boxes somewhere untested,

762
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 21: which may be. These are all people's lives and people's.

763
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 22: Families are so I appreciate that and as anyone, as

764
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 22: far as you know, ever put to the Commissioner, a

765
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 22: current one or any chronic commissioner, some specially funded project

766
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 22: is urgently needed to get a grip on all of

767
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 22: these unsold cases on aware.

768
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 1: The inquiri's report, including recommendations, was delivered in December twenty

769
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: twenty three and it ran to almost three and a

770
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 1: half thousand pages. Recommendation ten was that the New South

771
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:38,240
Speaker 1: Wales Police.

772
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 20: Force conduct a systematic review or audit of all unsolved

773
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 20: homicides pertaining to the period nineteen seventy to twenty ten,

774
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 20: including an audit of what exhibits have been retained in

775
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 20: relation to each death and their current location.

776
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 1: This is very significant because it recommends a review of

777
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:01,879
Speaker 1: all unsold homicides and is not limited to unsolved suspected

778
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 1: hate crime deaths. The Police Commissioner Karen Webb said sorry

779
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 1: to victims and families who had been failed by New

780
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 1: South Wales Police, including for.

781
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 6: The gaps in those investigative processes where records and exhibits

782
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 6: were lost or not examined with enough rigor.

783
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: Our research suggests there may be more than two hundred

784
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 1: unsolved homicides requiring auditing, and that twenty five detectives have

785
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: been assigned to help. Michelle and Andy have forged what

786
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: they believe will be long and deep connections with people

787
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 1: who have come forward in the podcast to help and

788
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: give them moral support, but this series is still coming

789
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:48,800
Speaker 1: at a heavy personal cost. Their connection to their niece,

790
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 1: Bromman's eldest daughter, Crystal, who is siding with Lauren and

791
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 1: John and Jody, was frayed before we took the break.

792
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: At the end of episode thirty two, connection appears to

793
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 1: be severed, at least for now. Can you just paraphrase

794
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: what Crystal told you, Andy?

795
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 9: She said, Look, I can't be in contact at the

796
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 9: moment because I don't agree with your version of events,

797
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 9: and I need to be there for my family, meaning

798
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,839
Speaker 9: she needs to be there for the Lena's Head side

799
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,760
Speaker 9: of the family more than the Sydney side of the family,

800
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,399
Speaker 9: which I thought was pretty confronting. Now obviously feeling rather

801
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 9: that way, mate.

802
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:38,280
Speaker 1: So she's rejecting the arguments and the facts and narrative

803
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: of the podcast series.

804
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 9: She refers to them as a version, when all we're

805
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 9: doing is following the facts and the statements and the

806
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 9: information that's on public records. So I'm not sure why

807
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 9: you refer to it as a version, because this isn't fiction,

808
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 9: you know what I mean. We're not making this stuff up.

809
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 9: But I firmly believe that's because of the pressure that's

810
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 9: put on her and the parrot that's sort of always forever.

811
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 9: They're being dangled about having a relationship, but it's not

812
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 9: really a true relationship.

813
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: Crystal's in her early forties and you've known her since

814
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 1: well since she was a baby, yep. At times as

815
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 1: an adult, have you observed her having a very different

816
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: perspective and view about her stepfather John and his alleged conduct.

817
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,280
Speaker 9: Yes, well, look at her statement and her evidence given.

818
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 9: There's some fairly damning sort of evidence there and in

819
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 9: her testimonial.

820
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: But is it the case that when you telephone her

821
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: she doesn't pick up the phone.

822
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 10: No, she doesn't want at all.

823
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:54,479
Speaker 9: She's even taken Mel off Facebook. He's taken Mel off

824
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 9: Socialism isn't in touch with Mel anymore.

825
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 1: Mel's mum, deb told me that yesterday. Melanie Taylor has

826
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: shared memories and observations of Bromwyn and John from the

827
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties when Mel and Crystal were close friends and

828
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 1: childhood neighbors in Sandstone Crescent. Mel saw Bromwin and her

829
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: girls leave the house as part of Bromwin's termination of

830
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 1: the marriage with John. Mel was there when Crystal, Lauren,

831
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: and Bromwin returned to the house while John was living

832
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: away and working in the shire in May nineteen ninety.

833
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 15: Three to got back to that home to give the

834
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 15: kids a house rather than will be unit and be

835
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 15: the mum And for all I know is that's what she.

836
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 1: Ever wanted, And over the years it's been suggested that

837
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 1: Bromwin just went off to, as John said, start a

838
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 1: new live. No way. Mel's candor has led to her

839
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: being attacked on social media by Bromwin's youngest daughter, Lauren.

840
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 1: Lauren and Jody remain staunchly loyal to their father John.

841
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:10,320
Speaker 1: Andy Reid believes that Crystal's recent cutting of her ties

842
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 1: with him and also with Mel on social media pleases

843
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 1: the Winfields. Tell me how you feel about the side

844
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 1: that she's picked.

845
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 9: I can understand in a sense. So I can understand

846
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 9: because h's flutching extrawtion. She doesn't want to lose the

847
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 9: relationship with her sister. I think her relationship with Lauren

848
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:37,839
Speaker 9: is more important than anything else. That's what she clings to. Yeah,

849
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 9: it's disappointing, but anyway, I can't do any about it.

850
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 9: I can't do any about it. It's more important to

851
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 9: get justice for Bromlan than to worry about my feelings.

852
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 17: We don't know you from a bar of soap. You've

853
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 17: never stepped foot in our household or our shoes, So

854
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,280
Speaker 17: what right exactly do you have to make these claims

855
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:57,359
Speaker 17: and assumptions on here?

856
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 1: Lauren has expressed heartfelt criticisms speaking art against her uncle

857
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: Andy Reid, as well as some of the listeners who

858
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 1: are part of an ongoing conversation about what possibly happened

859
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: to Bromwyn. We have always wanted Lauren to have her

860
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: say within respectful boundaries.

861
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 17: Most educated people know that just because the media publishes something,

862
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 17: it doesn't deem it factual or truthful accusations, speculations, opinions, gossip, judgments,

863
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 17: condescending acts, bullying tactics, stalking, filthy staes, doxing, harassment, intimidating approaches,

864
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 17: threats to safety. Should I continue my list of what

865
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 17: people are doing to us daughters and our families.

866
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 1: There is always a standing invitation to her, Jody, Crystal,

867
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: and John to sit down for an interview in person

868
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: or over an online platform like zoom. Lauren has been

869
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 1: assured that she can say much more in an interview

870
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 1: than she could say on the Facebook discussion group page.

871
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 1: Her father John has declined to be interviewed since day one.

872
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: I spoke to Bromwin's cousin Megan about this.

873
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 2: From what I've heard from Crystal and I speak to

874
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 2: Crystal every day, Lauren has been going through a dreadful time.

875
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 2: But as I said, this had to come out eventually,

876
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 2: and I wish I was close to her like I

877
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 2: am to Crystal. She looks so much like Bronwyn, a

878
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 2: burst in a cheese and Isiah.

879
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 10: She walks like Bromwen.

880
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 2: She's got Bromwin's eyes, It's the Bromin's physique.

881
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 7: She's just so much like Bromwin. It's like a double ganger.

882
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 6: It's like coming back.

883
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 1: Crystal's antipathy about the podcast became apparent in some of

884
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: her social media writings months before this episode.

885
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 7: The podcast only ever shares part of statements, comments, fabrications

886
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 7: and stories that serve their agenda. I'm not turning a

887
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 7: blind eye to anything, However, there is always two sides

888
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 7: to every story. I'm sorry, but I'm just not convinced

889
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 7: in this story. Mum would have always put her children's

890
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 7: happiness first, just like I would for my child. I

891
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 7: wish she were here, Mum.

892
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 9: I feel for it terribly, you know that. I think

893
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 9: she's burnt shrung along a bit to help their cause anyway. Disappointing,

894
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 9: but this is already our time and see if she

895
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 9: comes around.

896
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:46,120
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

897
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

898
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

899
00:59:55,120 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot au. You

900
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 1: can read more about this case and see a range

901
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 1: of photographs and other artwork at the website Bromwyn podcast

902
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 1: dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

903
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

904
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

905
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen and Matthew Condon, Karina Verger and

906
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 1: David Murray, with assistance from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for

907
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 1: this podcast series is by Wasabi Audeo and original theme

908
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 1: music by Slade Gibson. We have been assisted by Madison Walsh,

909
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 1: a relation of Bromwyn Winfield. We can only do this

910
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 1: kind of journalism with the support of our subscribers and

911
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 1: our major sponsors like Harvey Norman. For all of our

912
01:00:56,960 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 1: exclusive stories, videos, maps, timeline and documents about this podcast

913
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 1: and other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet, The Teacher's Trial,

914
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 1: The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy, and The Night Driver.

915
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 1: Go to the Australian dot com dot au and subscribe.