Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.
Speaker 1: It's Monday, June one, twenty twenty six. The Orchest Defense
Speaker 1: Pact is getting a dose of shrink flation with the
Speaker 1: US Navy to give Australia three second hand Virginia class
Speaker 1: nuclear powered submarines, not the new boats we were originally promised.
Speaker 1: It puts even more pressure on Australia's own ability to
Speaker 1: build submarines in Adelaide. That stories live now at the
Speaker 1: Australian dot com dot au stars with planet sized egos,
Speaker 1: newsroom staff with big opinions, audiences with high expectations and
Speaker 1: low patients. That's the hot mix awaiting the new ABC
Speaker 1: News boss who arrives as management sort of not really
Speaker 1: denies sacking the last bloke. Today, Media Editor James maddens
Speaker 1: here to discuss the big push to reshape national broadcaster.
Speaker 1: James Madden is the Australian's media editor and we're talking
Speaker 1: today about one of the biggest jobs in Australian journalism
Speaker 1: that's just been filled by an Australian who nobody in
Speaker 1: Australia really seems to know much about. Simon Robinson has
Speaker 1: been appointed the new news director at the ABC. It's
Speaker 1: a big gig, replacing Justin Stevens James. Did you know
Speaker 1: Simon Robinson or much about him before this announcement was made.
Speaker 2: No, Like most journalists in Australia, I've never heard of him.
Speaker 2: That's not to diminish his journalism or his credentials in
Speaker 2: any way. It simply reflects the fact that he hasn't
Speaker 2: worked in Australia for about sixteen years, and therefore he
Speaker 2: has been out of sight, out of mind whilst at
Speaker 2: Reuter's in the UK.
Speaker 1: Like everyone else. I've listened to a podcast that he
Speaker 1: was interviewed for in twenty nineteen called Always take Notes,
Speaker 1: which didn't contain any sort of big insights about his career.
Speaker 1: But the thing I enjoyed most was that he started
Speaker 1: out after graduating from film school as a fact checker
Speaker 1: at Who Weekly, which, for people who don't know, is
Speaker 1: a kind of supermarket gossip magazine.
Speaker 3: So I jumped into journalism and I worked at the
Speaker 3: Australian equivalent. It was a startup actually that time inc
Speaker 3: started the equivalent of People magazine for a couple of
Speaker 3: years as a fact checker, which is something lots of
Speaker 3: American magazine in particular used to have, and some still do,
Speaker 3: but fewer and fewer.
Speaker 1: Shows that you can start out anywhere in journalism, doesn't it,
Speaker 1: and get one of the loftiest jobs.
Speaker 2: And does And we've all got to start somewhere, Claire.
Speaker 2: But look he's rise. You would say he's been meteoric
Speaker 2: since then. He earned bit of a reputation as a
Speaker 2: fairly ambitious and fearless go getter as a younger reporter,
Speaker 2: and was always willing when he was at time, as
Speaker 2: I understand it, to be dispatched to far flung posts,
Speaker 2: the further the better, and did quite well in those
Speaker 2: roles and obviously attracted a lot of attention for his
Speaker 2: reporting on the ground. He was in a rah when
Speaker 2: the statue of Saddam came down.
Speaker 3: I was with a battalion, a US Marine battalion, and
Speaker 3: it got to the outskirts of Baghdada on April seventh,
Speaker 3: and then into central Baghdad on April ninth, and that
Speaker 3: was the day that the statue was pulled down by
Speaker 3: the unit that I happened to be embedded with. It
Speaker 3: was terrifying and fascinating. It was really as an embedded journalist,
Speaker 3: you were in this kind of bubble. You could really
Speaker 3: only see what you could see to the horizon. That
Speaker 3: was your worldview. When I got to Baghdad, I kind
Speaker 3: of disembedded myself the day after the statue fell, and
Speaker 3: then I ended up staying through most of that year.
Speaker 2: More recently, though, as a deputy at Router's deputy to
Speaker 2: the editor in chief, where he's effectively had responsibility for
Speaker 2: twenty six hundred journalists across the globe. For Routers, I'm
Speaker 2: sure everyone at the ABC will be betting over backwards
Speaker 2: to make him feel welcome and show him the rights.
Speaker 1: I'm sure, I'm sure they'll be welcoming rolling up red carpet. Now,
Speaker 1: before we get into what the future is going to
Speaker 1: look at the ABC, let's take a brief look at
Speaker 1: what happened to Justin Stevens. Justin Stevens was a pretty
Speaker 1: young director of News when he was first appointed. He'd
Speaker 1: come from seven thirty Report I think very well liked
Speaker 1: in the Newsroom's got big fans in people like Lee Sales,
Speaker 1: and then was unceremoniously announced that he was going to
Speaker 1: be leaving. He's positioned that as he's decided to move on.
Speaker 1: It's not quite clear though, really whether that's the case.
Speaker 1: And this was the subject of some questioning at Senate Estimates.
Speaker 1: Let's watch this. This is Sarah Henderson questioning Hugh Marx, and.
Speaker 4: We returned mister Marx to the resignation of mister Stevens.
Speaker 4: I have received some information that you threatened to terminate
Speaker 4: mister Stevens if you didn't resign.
Speaker 5: Is that the case? I don't know where that information
Speaker 5: is coming from, Senator.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, no, I'm not going to disclose the source clearly.
Speaker 6: Well, there were two people in the two people in
Speaker 6: our meeting, or maybe three, so.
Speaker 5: I don't know whether where that information has come from.
Speaker 4: So, but I'm asking you, is that true.
Speaker 5: I don't make threats, Senator.
Speaker 4: Did you suggest that you were going to terminate mister
Speaker 4: Stevens if you didn't resign?
Speaker 6: Senator, I think it's inappropriate for me to go into
Speaker 6: the details of individual discussions with mister Stevens. You know
Speaker 6: about a very serious matter in this forum. But I
Speaker 6: think the outcome is mister Stevens has resigned and we
Speaker 6: will be in due course in near future making an appointment.
Speaker 1: I'm hearing. Yes, that's correct, you've got me, Senator, what
Speaker 1: are you hearing? Men?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, if you were to read between the lines,
Speaker 2: and also in the people I've spoken to who are
Speaker 2: fairly well informed on this, it's no secret really that
Speaker 2: Hugh Mark's and Justin Stevens didn't necessarily see idle why.
Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting there were any massive blobs or anything
Speaker 2: along those lines. However, I'm told that Hugh Marx has
Speaker 2: been looking to push the news division in a different direction,
Speaker 2: tighten it up, just refresh things. And I think with
Speaker 2: Justin in that role, who was appointed well before mister
Speaker 2: Marx arrived, Justin's days were numbered as soon as there
Speaker 2: was the leadership change.
Speaker 1: It doesn't really matter who Senator Henderson's sources, of course,
Speaker 1: and the three people in the room that Hugh Marx
Speaker 1: is talking about is himself, Dinner A Morelli, the head
Speaker 1: of HR, and Justin. Those kinds of meetings don't usually
Speaker 1: result in someone spontaneously deciding to move on and spend
Speaker 1: more time with their families.
Speaker 2: Generally, no, generally no. I think it could be argued
Speaker 2: in some small part that Justin Stevens could argue that
Speaker 2: he's a victim of circumstances. He was appointed under the
Speaker 2: old leadership team headed by then managing director David Anderson. Obviously,
Speaker 2: there was significant change when Ida Buttrose moved on, replaced
Speaker 2: by Kim Williams and now Hugh Mark's eighteen months ago.
Speaker 2: The Williams Marks team unquestionably want to take the ABC
Speaker 2: in a different direction. They don't enjoy the status quo
Speaker 2: that I enjoy, the criticism that is leveled at the
Speaker 2: media organization and specifically the news division. And if you're
Speaker 2: going to make change at the ABC to try and
Speaker 2: steer the news division in a different direction, establish a
Speaker 2: fresh culture, then the existing news director has got to
Speaker 2: probably make way for a new set of eyes.
Speaker 1: I think there are probably two big themes of the
Speaker 1: critique of Justin Stevens and the ABC's news division over
Speaker 1: the past few years. One would be staffer out of control.
Speaker 1: Big personalities are either leaving in it in a half
Speaker 1: in zooing or saying things that are unwise on social
Speaker 1: media and don't get rapped over the knuckles very hard.
Speaker 1: The other critique would be that the ABC has gone
Speaker 1: woke and that it is too much pro Gaza, too
Speaker 1: much anti Israel. And too much kind of protrance. What
Speaker 1: do you think of all those critiques and how the
Speaker 1: balance of those things shaped the end of Justin Stevens'
Speaker 1: time there.
Speaker 2: I think the pro woke argument is probably overplayed somewhat.
Speaker 2: I think some high profile cases mask the fact that
Speaker 2: bind life charge. There are many many really good journalists
Speaker 2: at the ABC, but any kind of editorial misstep is
Speaker 2: obviously seized upon. It is the public broadcaster. Mistakes do
Speaker 2: get a lot of publicity, so I suppose a handful
Speaker 2: of glaring errors are magnified beyond what they might otherwise be.
Speaker 1: There's some suggestions of capture though. For example, the Australians
Speaker 1: been doing a lot of reporting by Stephen Rice about
Speaker 1: the ABC's partnership with Acorn, a pro trans lobby group,
Speaker 1: and a kind of commitment by the ABC to ensure
Speaker 1: that trans equality was reflected in its news coverage. That
Speaker 1: partnership has now ended, and I think the ABC's probably
Speaker 1: seen that it wasn't wise. Is that the kind of
Speaker 1: thing that would have happened, not at Justin Stevens's level.
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't see him being a kind of transactivity.
Speaker 2: Well, I think with that particular example, that was established
Speaker 2: by David Anderson, so before Hu Marx arrived, although Justin
Speaker 2: Sevens would have been out there at the time. But
Speaker 2: that's a good example of something that Hu Marx wants
Speaker 2: to Unwahan, basically to ensure that there's no perception of
Speaker 2: bias on what is a critical social and cultural and
Speaker 2: medical issue. It shouldn't be slanted through an activist lens,
Speaker 2: of course, So I think that's a good example of
Speaker 2: where the new leadership team have identified a glaring error
Speaker 2: that wasn't of their making. But the ABC being a
Speaker 2: you know, if you want to compare it to a
Speaker 2: giant oil ship, it's not easy to turn around. You
Speaker 2: can't spin it on a dime. And again I suppose
Speaker 2: that comes back to Justin Stevens, whereby it's probably taken
Speaker 2: close to six months from the time of plotting. If
Speaker 2: you want to use that word to remove Justin, it's
Speaker 2: probably taken six months to actually get to where they
Speaker 2: are now.
Speaker 1: It would be a hard newsroom to lead, and I
Speaker 1: think the Gaza issue shows that there is a workforce
Speaker 1: there at the ABC who maybe includes quite a lot
Speaker 1: of people who have quite strong views about Israel and Gaza.
Speaker 1: The Australian Jewish community certainly. I think very many prominent
Speaker 1: members feel that the ABC has been biased against them
Speaker 1: in their coverage. That's hard to change unless you're going
Speaker 1: to explicitly stand up in newsrooms and say, listen, we
Speaker 1: have to start being more fair. We are not getting
Speaker 1: this right. Why wouldn't Justin Stevens have done that?
Speaker 2: Do you think? Look, it's a hard question to answer.
Speaker 2: I would say that, as you mentioned at the top
Speaker 2: of this podcast, Justin Stevens was thirty eight years old
Speaker 2: when he took the position of Director of News. He'd
Speaker 2: come from several years as EP at seven point thirty
Speaker 2: when Lee Sales was host. From all reports, he had
Speaker 2: a very successful tenure at seven thirty and worked very
Speaker 2: well with Sales, but it was an enormous jump for
Speaker 2: him to go from that role to managing a workforce
Speaker 2: of the magnitude that he's the ABC and naturally too.
Speaker 2: When you step into a role like that, you are
Speaker 2: at age thirty eight, coming up against journalists who've done
Speaker 2: it more than twice as long as you, and as
Speaker 2: you said, they are forceful personalities and there's lots of them.
Speaker 2: It's hard for a thirty or eight year old who's
Speaker 2: pretty new to the job to be able to stamp
Speaker 2: his authority. So in hindsight, it might have been too much,
Speaker 2: too soon.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is really hard. I can imagine how difficult
Speaker 1: it is. The workforce is also pretty militant to the ABC.
Speaker 1: You know, they have been striking recently. They've certainly done
Speaker 1: things like I Stand with Stan protest when Stan Grant
Speaker 1: quit in a half about what he felt was a
Speaker 1: lack of support from the organization. Simon Robinson has a
Speaker 1: big job cut out for him. One of the things
Speaker 1: that I think people would be hoping for or expecting
Speaker 1: from Simon Robinson is that he enforces the ABC's code
Speaker 1: of conduct in relation to social media. That is, don't
Speaker 1: have opinions on social media, especially not if they're going
Speaker 1: to embarrass the ABC that has clearly not been policed
Speaker 1: at all. Do you think that will be where he goes.
Speaker 2: I mean it's a difficult thing to rain in. I mean,
Speaker 2: this is a large workforce. But I think if what
Speaker 2: could be reinforced, and Kim Williams has spoken a lot
Speaker 2: about this, actually what could be reinforced is remind yourself
Speaker 2: that you're not targeting a particular audience. Your audience is
Speaker 2: the Australian taxpayer, and they need to as broadly as
Speaker 2: possible service the market, not just a particular niche, not
Speaker 2: just left leaning listeners and viewers perhaps, but they need
Speaker 2: to try and broaden the appeal of the ABC, which
Speaker 2: I would argue had significantly more appeal in previous decades
Speaker 2: gone by, and they seem to have moved progressively away
Speaker 2: from the center, and that's been a problem for a
Speaker 2: long time. I think if you move it back to
Speaker 2: the center, then other ills such as social media breaches
Speaker 2: might begin to remedy themselves.
Speaker 1: Most big news organizations, that particularly the ones that have
Speaker 1: a broadcastme, do have some very big and very powerful stars.
Speaker 1: Often they are more powerful, certainly more influential than the executives.
Speaker 1: Simon Robinson is, as we've discussed, a bit of an
Speaker 1: unknown in Australian journalism. What do you think the staff,
Speaker 1: particularly the big dogs, can expect well.
Speaker 2: I suppose one advantage that Robinson has coming in having
Speaker 2: zero profile within the ABC and being an outsider, is
Speaker 2: that he won't have any allegiances to any of the
Speaker 2: high profile on air staff who are used to getting
Speaker 2: their way so as an unknown quantity he can, I suppose,
Speaker 2: rid himself of any obligation to stroke the egos of
Speaker 2: certain people and just got it his own way. So
Speaker 2: that is an ace upy sleeve.
Speaker 1: I suppose someone will challenge him early on. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's what happens. Someone will try to mark their territory
Speaker 1: and he'll have to make a call. Has this person
Speaker 1: embarrassed the ABC? You know? Can I rain them in?
Speaker 1: Do you got any money on who might be the
Speaker 1: first challenger?
Speaker 2: You're trying to get me in trouble. What I would
Speaker 2: say about that is that Simon Robinson will have the
Speaker 2: absolute backing of few Marks from the get go, and
Speaker 2: hu Marks himself has said he doesn't really pay any
Speaker 2: attention to the reputations of the journalists. He judges people
Speaker 2: on their work. He doesn't want to necessarily socialized or
Speaker 2: be friends with the journalists, which I would argue is
Speaker 2: not necessarily the case with some previous leaders of the ABC.
Speaker 2: So again, if you've got Marx and Robinson in lockstep
Speaker 2: pushing back against any unreasonable demands or tantrums, let's suggest
Speaker 2: by some of the more high profile staff, then it's
Speaker 2: probably a good start.
Speaker 1: Well, We'll be watching with interest. Thanks James, Thanks Claire.
Speaker 1: James Madden is The Australian's media editor. You can check
Speaker 1: out all his reporting, plus, of course, Steve Jackson's media
Speaker 1: diary right now at The Australian dot com dot au
Speaker 1: slash media