WEBVTT - Can Simon Robinson tame the ABC? 

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<v Speaker 1>From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Monday, June one, twenty twenty six. The Orchest Defense

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<v Speaker 1>Pact is getting a dose of shrink flation with the

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<v Speaker 1>US Navy to give Australia three second hand Virginia class

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<v Speaker 1>nuclear powered submarines, not the new boats we were originally promised.

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<v Speaker 1>It puts even more pressure on Australia's own ability to

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<v Speaker 1>build submarines in Adelaide. That stories live now at the

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<v Speaker 1>Australian dot com dot au stars with planet sized egos,

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<v Speaker 1>newsroom staff with big opinions, audiences with high expectations and

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<v Speaker 1>low patients. That's the hot mix awaiting the new ABC

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<v Speaker 1>News boss who arrives as management sort of not really

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<v Speaker 1>denies sacking the last bloke. Today, Media Editor James maddens

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<v Speaker 1>here to discuss the big push to reshape national broadcaster.

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<v Speaker 1>James Madden is the Australian's media editor and we're talking

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<v Speaker 1>today about one of the biggest jobs in Australian journalism

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<v Speaker 1>that's just been filled by an Australian who nobody in

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<v Speaker 1>Australia really seems to know much about. Simon Robinson has

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<v Speaker 1>been appointed the new news director at the ABC. It's

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<v Speaker 1>a big gig, replacing Justin Stevens James. Did you know

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<v Speaker 1>Simon Robinson or much about him before this announcement was made.

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<v Speaker 2>No, Like most journalists in Australia, I've never heard of him.

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<v Speaker 2>That's not to diminish his journalism or his credentials in

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<v Speaker 2>any way. It simply reflects the fact that he hasn't

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<v Speaker 2>worked in Australia for about sixteen years, and therefore he

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<v Speaker 2>has been out of sight, out of mind whilst at

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<v Speaker 2>Reuter's in the UK.

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<v Speaker 1>Like everyone else. I've listened to a podcast that he

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<v Speaker 1>was interviewed for in twenty nineteen called Always take Notes,

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<v Speaker 1>which didn't contain any sort of big insights about his career.

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<v Speaker 1>But the thing I enjoyed most was that he started

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<v Speaker 1>out after graduating from film school as a fact checker

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<v Speaker 1>at Who Weekly, which, for people who don't know, is

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<v Speaker 1>a kind of supermarket gossip magazine.

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<v Speaker 3>So I jumped into journalism and I worked at the

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<v Speaker 3>Australian equivalent. It was a startup actually that time inc

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<v Speaker 3>started the equivalent of People magazine for a couple of

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<v Speaker 3>years as a fact checker, which is something lots of

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<v Speaker 3>American magazine in particular used to have, and some still do,

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<v Speaker 3>but fewer and fewer.

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<v Speaker 1>Shows that you can start out anywhere in journalism, doesn't it,

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<v Speaker 1>and get one of the loftiest jobs.

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<v Speaker 2>And does And we've all got to start somewhere, Claire.

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<v Speaker 2>But look he's rise. You would say he's been meteoric

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<v Speaker 2>since then. He earned bit of a reputation as a

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<v Speaker 2>fairly ambitious and fearless go getter as a younger reporter,

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<v Speaker 2>and was always willing when he was at time, as

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<v Speaker 2>I understand it, to be dispatched to far flung posts,

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<v Speaker 2>the further the better, and did quite well in those

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<v Speaker 2>roles and obviously attracted a lot of attention for his

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<v Speaker 2>reporting on the ground. He was in a rah when

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<v Speaker 2>the statue of Saddam came down.

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<v Speaker 3>I was with a battalion, a US Marine battalion, and

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<v Speaker 3>it got to the outskirts of Baghdada on April seventh,

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<v Speaker 3>and then into central Baghdad on April ninth, and that

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<v Speaker 3>was the day that the statue was pulled down by

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<v Speaker 3>the unit that I happened to be embedded with. It

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<v Speaker 3>was terrifying and fascinating. It was really as an embedded journalist,

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<v Speaker 3>you were in this kind of bubble. You could really

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<v Speaker 3>only see what you could see to the horizon. That

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<v Speaker 3>was your worldview. When I got to Baghdad, I kind

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<v Speaker 3>of disembedded myself the day after the statue fell, and

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<v Speaker 3>then I ended up staying through most of that year.

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<v Speaker 2>More recently, though, as a deputy at Router's deputy to

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<v Speaker 2>the editor in chief, where he's effectively had responsibility for

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<v Speaker 2>twenty six hundred journalists across the globe. For Routers, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>sure everyone at the ABC will be betting over backwards

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<v Speaker 2>to make him feel welcome and show him the rights.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sure, I'm sure they'll be welcoming rolling up red carpet. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>before we get into what the future is going to

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<v Speaker 1>look at the ABC, let's take a brief look at

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<v Speaker 1>what happened to Justin Stevens. Justin Stevens was a pretty

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<v Speaker 1>young director of News when he was first appointed. He'd

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<v Speaker 1>come from seven thirty Report I think very well liked

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<v Speaker 1>in the Newsroom's got big fans in people like Lee Sales,

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<v Speaker 1>and then was unceremoniously announced that he was going to

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<v Speaker 1>be leaving. He's positioned that as he's decided to move on.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not quite clear though, really whether that's the case.

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<v Speaker 1>And this was the subject of some questioning at Senate Estimates.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's watch this. This is Sarah Henderson questioning Hugh Marx, and.

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<v Speaker 4>We returned mister Marx to the resignation of mister Stevens.

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<v Speaker 4>I have received some information that you threatened to terminate

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<v Speaker 4>mister Stevens if you didn't resign.

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<v Speaker 5>Is that the case? I don't know where that information

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<v Speaker 5>is coming from, Senator.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm sorry, no, I'm not going to disclose the source clearly.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, there were two people in the two people in

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<v Speaker 6>our meeting, or maybe three, so.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't know whether where that information has come from.

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<v Speaker 4>So, but I'm asking you, is that true.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't make threats, Senator.

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<v Speaker 4>Did you suggest that you were going to terminate mister

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<v Speaker 4>Stevens if you didn't resign?

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<v Speaker 6>Senator, I think it's inappropriate for me to go into

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<v Speaker 6>the details of individual discussions with mister Stevens. You know

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<v Speaker 6>about a very serious matter in this forum. But I

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<v Speaker 6>think the outcome is mister Stevens has resigned and we

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<v Speaker 6>will be in due course in near future making an appointment.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm hearing. Yes, that's correct, you've got me, Senator, what

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<v Speaker 1>are you hearing? Men?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yes, if you were to read between the lines,

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<v Speaker 2>and also in the people I've spoken to who are

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<v Speaker 2>fairly well informed on this, it's no secret really that

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<v Speaker 2>Hugh Mark's and Justin Stevens didn't necessarily see idle why.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not suggesting there were any massive blobs or anything

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<v Speaker 2>along those lines. However, I'm told that Hugh Marx has

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<v Speaker 2>been looking to push the news division in a different direction,

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<v Speaker 2>tighten it up, just refresh things. And I think with

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<v Speaker 2>Justin in that role, who was appointed well before mister

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<v Speaker 2>Marx arrived, Justin's days were numbered as soon as there

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<v Speaker 2>was the leadership change.

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<v Speaker 1>It doesn't really matter who Senator Henderson's sources, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>and the three people in the room that Hugh Marx

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<v Speaker 1>is talking about is himself, Dinner A Morelli, the head

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<v Speaker 1>of HR, and Justin. Those kinds of meetings don't usually

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<v Speaker 1>result in someone spontaneously deciding to move on and spend

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<v Speaker 1>more time with their families.

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<v Speaker 2>Generally, no, generally no. I think it could be argued

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<v Speaker 2>in some small part that Justin Stevens could argue that

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<v Speaker 2>he's a victim of circumstances. He was appointed under the

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<v Speaker 2>old leadership team headed by then managing director David Anderson. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>there was significant change when Ida Buttrose moved on, replaced

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<v Speaker 2>by Kim Williams and now Hugh Mark's eighteen months ago.

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<v Speaker 2>The Williams Marks team unquestionably want to take the ABC

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<v Speaker 2>in a different direction. They don't enjoy the status quo

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<v Speaker 2>that I enjoy, the criticism that is leveled at the

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<v Speaker 2>media organization and specifically the news division. And if you're

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<v Speaker 2>going to make change at the ABC to try and

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<v Speaker 2>steer the news division in a different direction, establish a

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<v Speaker 2>fresh culture, then the existing news director has got to

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<v Speaker 2>probably make way for a new set of eyes.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there are probably two big themes of the

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<v Speaker 1>critique of Justin Stevens and the ABC's news division over

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<v Speaker 1>the past few years. One would be staffer out of control.

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<v Speaker 1>Big personalities are either leaving in it in a half

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<v Speaker 1>in zooing or saying things that are unwise on social

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<v Speaker 1>media and don't get rapped over the knuckles very hard.

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<v Speaker 1>The other critique would be that the ABC has gone

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<v Speaker 1>woke and that it is too much pro Gaza, too

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<v Speaker 1>much anti Israel. And too much kind of protrance. What

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<v Speaker 1>do you think of all those critiques and how the

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<v Speaker 1>balance of those things shaped the end of Justin Stevens'

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<v Speaker 1>time there.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the pro woke argument is probably overplayed somewhat.

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<v Speaker 2>I think some high profile cases mask the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>bind life charge. There are many many really good journalists

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<v Speaker 2>at the ABC, but any kind of editorial misstep is

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<v Speaker 2>obviously seized upon. It is the public broadcaster. Mistakes do

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<v Speaker 2>get a lot of publicity, so I suppose a handful

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<v Speaker 2>of glaring errors are magnified beyond what they might otherwise be.

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<v Speaker 1>There's some suggestions of capture though. For example, the Australians

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<v Speaker 1>been doing a lot of reporting by Stephen Rice about

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<v Speaker 1>the ABC's partnership with Acorn, a pro trans lobby group,

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<v Speaker 1>and a kind of commitment by the ABC to ensure

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<v Speaker 1>that trans equality was reflected in its news coverage. That

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<v Speaker 1>partnership has now ended, and I think the ABC's probably

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<v Speaker 1>seen that it wasn't wise. Is that the kind of

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<v Speaker 1>thing that would have happened, not at Justin Stevens's level.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I can't see him being a kind of transactivity.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think with that particular example, that was established

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<v Speaker 2>by David Anderson, so before Hu Marx arrived, although Justin

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<v Speaker 2>Sevens would have been out there at the time. But

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<v Speaker 2>that's a good example of something that Hu Marx wants

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<v Speaker 2>to Unwahan, basically to ensure that there's no perception of

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<v Speaker 2>bias on what is a critical social and cultural and

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<v Speaker 2>medical issue. It shouldn't be slanted through an activist lens,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, So I think that's a good example of

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<v Speaker 2>where the new leadership team have identified a glaring error

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<v Speaker 2>that wasn't of their making. But the ABC being a

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<v Speaker 2>you know, if you want to compare it to a

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<v Speaker 2>giant oil ship, it's not easy to turn around. You

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<v Speaker 2>can't spin it on a dime. And again I suppose

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<v Speaker 2>that comes back to Justin Stevens, whereby it's probably taken

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<v Speaker 2>close to six months from the time of plotting. If

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<v Speaker 2>you want to use that word to remove Justin, it's

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<v Speaker 2>probably taken six months to actually get to where they

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<v Speaker 2>are now.

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<v Speaker 1>It would be a hard newsroom to lead, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think the Gaza issue shows that there is a workforce

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<v Speaker 1>there at the ABC who maybe includes quite a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people who have quite strong views about Israel and Gaza.

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<v Speaker 1>The Australian Jewish community certainly. I think very many prominent

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<v Speaker 1>members feel that the ABC has been biased against them

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<v Speaker 1>in their coverage. That's hard to change unless you're going

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<v Speaker 1>to explicitly stand up in newsrooms and say, listen, we

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<v Speaker 1>have to start being more fair. We are not getting

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<v Speaker 1>this right. Why wouldn't Justin Stevens have done that?

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<v Speaker 2>Do you think? Look, it's a hard question to answer.

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<v Speaker 2>I would say that, as you mentioned at the top

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<v Speaker 2>of this podcast, Justin Stevens was thirty eight years old

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<v Speaker 2>when he took the position of Director of News. He'd

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<v Speaker 2>come from several years as EP at seven point thirty

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<v Speaker 2>when Lee Sales was host. From all reports, he had

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<v Speaker 2>a very successful tenure at seven thirty and worked very

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<v Speaker 2>well with Sales, but it was an enormous jump for

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<v Speaker 2>him to go from that role to managing a workforce

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<v Speaker 2>of the magnitude that he's the ABC and naturally too.

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<v Speaker 2>When you step into a role like that, you are

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<v Speaker 2>at age thirty eight, coming up against journalists who've done

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<v Speaker 2>it more than twice as long as you, and as

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<v Speaker 2>you said, they are forceful personalities and there's lots of them.

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<v Speaker 2>It's hard for a thirty or eight year old who's

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<v Speaker 2>pretty new to the job to be able to stamp

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<v Speaker 2>his authority. So in hindsight, it might have been too much,

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<v Speaker 2>too soon.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that is really hard. I can imagine how difficult

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<v Speaker 1>it is. The workforce is also pretty militant to the ABC.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, they have been striking recently. They've certainly done

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<v Speaker 1>things like I Stand with Stan protest when Stan Grant

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<v Speaker 1>quit in a half about what he felt was a

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<v Speaker 1>lack of support from the organization. Simon Robinson has a

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<v Speaker 1>big job cut out for him. One of the things

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<v Speaker 1>that I think people would be hoping for or expecting

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<v Speaker 1>from Simon Robinson is that he enforces the ABC's code

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<v Speaker 1>of conduct in relation to social media. That is, don't

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<v Speaker 1>have opinions on social media, especially not if they're going

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<v Speaker 1>to embarrass the ABC that has clearly not been policed

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<v Speaker 1>at all. Do you think that will be where he goes.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it's a difficult thing to rain in. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a large workforce. But I think if what

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<v Speaker 2>could be reinforced, and Kim Williams has spoken a lot

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<v Speaker 2>about this, actually what could be reinforced is remind yourself

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<v Speaker 2>that you're not targeting a particular audience. Your audience is

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<v Speaker 2>the Australian taxpayer, and they need to as broadly as

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<v Speaker 2>possible service the market, not just a particular niche, not

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<v Speaker 2>just left leaning listeners and viewers perhaps, but they need

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<v Speaker 2>to try and broaden the appeal of the ABC, which

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<v Speaker 2>I would argue had significantly more appeal in previous decades

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<v Speaker 2>gone by, and they seem to have moved progressively away

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<v Speaker 2>from the center, and that's been a problem for a

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<v Speaker 2>long time. I think if you move it back to

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<v Speaker 2>the center, then other ills such as social media breaches

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<v Speaker 2>might begin to remedy themselves.

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<v Speaker 1>Most big news organizations, that particularly the ones that have

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<v Speaker 1>a broadcastme, do have some very big and very powerful stars.

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<v Speaker 1>Often they are more powerful, certainly more influential than the executives.

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<v Speaker 1>Simon Robinson is, as we've discussed, a bit of an

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<v Speaker 1>unknown in Australian journalism. What do you think the staff,

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<v Speaker 1>particularly the big dogs, can expect well.

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<v Speaker 2>I suppose one advantage that Robinson has coming in having

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<v Speaker 2>zero profile within the ABC and being an outsider, is

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<v Speaker 2>that he won't have any allegiances to any of the

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<v Speaker 2>high profile on air staff who are used to getting

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<v Speaker 2>their way so as an unknown quantity he can, I suppose,

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<v Speaker 2>rid himself of any obligation to stroke the egos of

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<v Speaker 2>certain people and just got it his own way. So

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<v Speaker 2>that is an ace upy sleeve.

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<v Speaker 1>I suppose someone will challenge him early on. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>that's what happens. Someone will try to mark their territory

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<v Speaker 1>and he'll have to make a call. Has this person

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<v Speaker 1>embarrassed the ABC? You know? Can I rain them in?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you got any money on who might be the

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<v Speaker 1>first challenger?

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<v Speaker 2>You're trying to get me in trouble. What I would

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<v Speaker 2>say about that is that Simon Robinson will have the

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<v Speaker 2>absolute backing of few Marks from the get go, and

0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.840
<v Speaker 2>hu Marks himself has said he doesn't really pay any

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<v Speaker 2>attention to the reputations of the journalists. He judges people

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<v Speaker 2>on their work. He doesn't want to necessarily socialized or

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<v Speaker 2>be friends with the journalists, which I would argue is

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<v Speaker 2>not necessarily the case with some previous leaders of the ABC.

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<v Speaker 2>So again, if you've got Marx and Robinson in lockstep

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<v Speaker 2>pushing back against any unreasonable demands or tantrums, let's suggest

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<v Speaker 2>by some of the more high profile staff, then it's

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<v Speaker 2>probably a good start.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, We'll be watching with interest. Thanks James, Thanks Claire.

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<v Speaker 1>James Madden is The Australian's media editor. You can check

0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.880
<v Speaker 1>out all his reporting, plus, of course, Steve Jackson's media

0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:33.320
<v Speaker 1>diary right now at The Australian dot com dot au

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<v Speaker 1>slash media