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Speaker 1: Appoche production. This podcast includes references to drug use, youth suicide,

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Speaker 1: and violent crime. It's not recommended for younger audiences and

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Speaker 1: listener discretion is advised. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Adam Shand. If you enjoy our content,

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Speaker 1: please subscribe, like, and share to support more independent crime journalism.

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Speaker 1: Youth crime is the hot issue in Australia right now.

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Speaker 2: Victoria is cracking down on youth offenders, with children as

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Speaker 2: young as fourteen facing the possibility of being jailed for

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Speaker 2: life for violent crime.

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Speaker 1: Day after day, we read stories of angry, disaffected young

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Speaker 1: people committing violent, senseless crimes, often while under the influence

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Speaker 1: of drugs like methamphetamine or ice.

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Speaker 2: Destroying families, causing carnage on our roads, and murder in

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Speaker 2: our homes.

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Speaker 1: This is a bleak story of family breakdown, alienation from

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Speaker 1: education and employment, and offenders consigned to a revolving door

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Speaker 1: of the criminal justice system.

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Speaker 2: Ice is ripping through rural and regional areas, devastating entire towns.

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Speaker 1: But today I'm not here to wring my hands and

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Speaker 1: add to this council of despair, because I've witnessed the

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Speaker 1: miraculous possibilities of hope and redemption. I met my guest

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Speaker 1: ten years ago when he was turning his life around

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Speaker 1: from is addiction and crime. Back then, I made a

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Speaker 1: podcast with Tom Desuza called Meth Destruction, which detailed his

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Speaker 1: descent into that hellish world. Fortunately meth did not destroy Tom,

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Speaker 1: but it did come very close. He got his life

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Speaker 1: back on track and is now making a documentary film

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Speaker 1: about riding a motorcycle across Indonesia. He's living a life

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Speaker 1: of grace and possibility that he could scarcely have imagined

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Speaker 1: back in the dark days of his early teens. And

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Speaker 1: it's my great pleasure to speak with you again, Tom Adam,

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Speaker 1: how's it going? Amazing? What comes to mind is that

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Speaker 1: Bob Dylan's song A Hard Range is going to fall

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Speaker 1: on the line where have you been, my blue eyed son?

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Speaker 1: And it really applies to your journey. You're living in

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Speaker 1: an extraordinary life now. Like I said, could you have

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Speaker 1: imagined where you are today back in those early days.

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Speaker 3: Back in those days, I remember my drug dealer telling

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Speaker 3: me if anybody made it to twenty five, you're a survivor.

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Speaker 3: There weren't many of us who made it past twenty five,

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Speaker 3: So no, not at all. You know, if you ask

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Speaker 3: me back then, I'd be surprised to know that I'd

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Speaker 3: even still be alive.

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Speaker 1: Because looking at you, I don't see any of the effects.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you describe yourself as a junkie before. You

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Speaker 1: don't look like that, you don't act like that. You've

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Speaker 1: really managed to get through this on the surface unscathed. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: these things do leave impacts. But I guess you've been

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Speaker 1: pretty lucky.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, I have been lucky, and I guess

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Speaker 3: the version of success I've been able to achieve. I

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Speaker 3: actually went in a couple of years ago and saw

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Speaker 3: a drug counselor who was my counselor when I was

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Speaker 3: going through rehap and youth detox and that kind of thing,

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Speaker 3: and she said, it's actually quite remarkable what's happened, because

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Speaker 3: oftentimes success for a lot of people who came out

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Speaker 3: of drug addiction it's just the ability to hold down

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Speaker 3: a job or a relationship. And yeah, I guess I've

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Speaker 3: been able to take it to the next level and

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Speaker 3: build a pretty extraordinary life, which I'm really grateful for.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is extraordinary. And I think we're often sold

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Speaker 1: a message that is somewhat a miracle story that life

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Speaker 1: after drugs is going to be perfect if you do

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Speaker 1: these things and you stay on the program. But of

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Speaker 1: course life still intervenes. There's still the problems of life

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Speaker 1: to deal with, and getting off drugs and out of

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Speaker 1: crime is just one more stop on the journey. Do

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Speaker 1: you feel like that that you still sort of a

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Speaker 1: work in progress? Things are still happening, You're still sorting

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Speaker 1: out life for sure.

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Speaker 3: That's life, isn't it? You know? That's life for everybody.

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Speaker 3: Life isn't easy. Life is hard, and there are a

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Speaker 3: lot of trials and challenges and things that everybody goes

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Speaker 3: through on the way. And I guess for me, as

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Speaker 3: a child and as a teenager, drugs for my escape

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Speaker 3: from that and my means of coping with that. But

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Speaker 3: I learned a lot of hard lessons at a pretty

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Speaker 3: young age. Whereas I think some of the challenges and

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Speaker 3: struggles in life, I think a lot of people go

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Speaker 3: through life maybe not being able to deal with those

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Speaker 3: things and finding other escapes, whether that's in work, in sex,

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Speaker 3: or alcoholism, or I guess everybody has their own kind

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Speaker 3: of form of escape. And I think I learned a

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Speaker 3: lot of these lessons at a young age, and that's

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Speaker 3: equipped me pretty well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I won't start on my various additions and passions

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Speaker 1: and obsessions which I've used to get through nearly forty

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Speaker 1: years of journalism. And we're actually here in Balley. So

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Speaker 1: if you do hear motorbikes in the background, scooters and things,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to stop with them because there's just

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Speaker 1: too many of them. If you'll have to put up

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Speaker 1: with the listeners. But I've been giving you a hand

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Speaker 1: with your film, and part of the exercise was to

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Speaker 1: make an outline of all the material you have shot

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Speaker 1: over nearly two years and then cut it up into

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Speaker 1: bits and put it on the floor. And I was

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Speaker 1: looking at your life on the floor, which has included

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Speaker 1: all the dark times, how you got into drugs and crime,

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Speaker 1: and how you've got out and where your journey's taken you.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to the beginning of that, because your

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Speaker 1: story begins in a middle class family in England with

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Speaker 1: all the advantages, but then things began to go wrong.

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Speaker 1: Tell us a bit about that.

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Speaker 3: I had a pretty privileged life, was one of four kids.

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Speaker 3: Dad worked a good job, Mum worked as a vet

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Speaker 3: and I kind of grew up having all the modern

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Speaker 3: day trappings. I guess, you know, I had a good education.

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Speaker 3: I took French lessons and swimming lessons and tennis lessons,

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Speaker 3: and as far as I knew, it was part of

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Speaker 3: a happy, unified family.

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Speaker 1: But then things began to go wrong. Dad was working

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Speaker 1: in the financial industry. The stock market crash came and

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Speaker 1: you guys, return to your family's native home, Perth, and

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Speaker 1: you struggled to fit in. You've never found Perth was

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Speaker 1: home even to this day, and cracks began to appear

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Speaker 1: in that middle class facade.

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Speaker 3: What happened, Well, I think, you know, it's a pretty

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Speaker 3: difficult thing to mobilize a family of six people and

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Speaker 3: move them across to the other side of the world.

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Speaker 3: And I think Mum and Dad had this idea of

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Speaker 3: how things might look on the reality turned out to

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Speaker 3: be really different. Dad struggled to find work, I struggled

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Speaker 3: to fit in, and I guess I felt different from

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Speaker 3: everybody else, and I found myself in a place where

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Speaker 3: that difference wasn't really celebrated or encouraged, and as a result,

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Speaker 3: I started to hate myself and be unhappy with who

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Speaker 3: I was and to feel uncomfortable in my own skin.

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Speaker 3: So I set about trying to destroy myself literally.

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Speaker 1: And you're a gifted student, You've got a scholarship to

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Speaker 1: a prestigious school. You didn't fit in. You saw your

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Speaker 1: name up on the on a board in gold letters,

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Speaker 1: and that was a source of bullying for you. Your

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Speaker 1: response was to try to burn the school down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right. That was how much I hated

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Speaker 3: that place. You know, I went to the school on

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Speaker 3: the weekend. I was just skateboarding with a friend. I

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Speaker 3: didn't go there with that specific intention, but I was

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Speaker 3: there at the school, and you know, I guess all

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Speaker 3: these visceral feelings just I saw a pile of leaves

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Speaker 3: on the veranda outside the headmaster's office, and yeah, all

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Speaker 3: these feelings just compelled me to go and hold a

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Speaker 3: cannadioda and a lighter up to the leaves. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: luckily the grounds keeper saw us and chased us away

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Speaker 3: before anything went up in flames. But I wasn't happy

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Speaker 3: at that place. I didn't like it. And I guess,

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Speaker 3: like I said, I was uncomfortable in my own skin,

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Speaker 3: and I sought solitude out on the margins of society.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you went a good crook because you didn't

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Speaker 1: look for the CCTV camera, which gave you up straight away,

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Speaker 1: so you were immediately turned in And that was the

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Speaker 1: beginning of the end for you at that school. I

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Speaker 1: think you were expelled went it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, I was expelled and I went to eight

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Speaker 3: or nine different schools in total, so I moved around

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Speaker 3: a lot, and there was definitely a feeling of dislocation,

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Speaker 3: and I think, you know, there was a sense of

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Speaker 3: instability at school, and there was a sense of instability

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Speaker 3: at home as well. Mum and Dad's relationship was starting

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Speaker 3: to get pretty rocky. Dad had gone to work in

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Speaker 3: Hong Kong and then come back, and we also weren't

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Speaker 3: really sure of our future in Perth. We'd just moved

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Speaker 3: from London. We'd been back in Perth through about three years,

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Speaker 3: and there was talk of moving again to Sydney or

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Speaker 3: Melbourne or somewhere else. And I didn't really feel a

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Speaker 3: sense of stability. And I moved through all these schools

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Speaker 3: and it started to think, well, what's the point of

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Speaker 3: making friends and investing in this place when we might

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Speaker 3: just move again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're looking for a sense of ease and

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Speaker 1: comfort within yourself. You discover marijuana, You smoke a bit

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Speaker 1: that for a while, and then you decided to go

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Speaker 1: on to caffeine pills, of all things, and you and

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Speaker 1: your mate steal from the supermarket a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: cap I don't if caffeine pills are still available, don't

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Speaker 1: go looking for them if you listen to this podcast.

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Speaker 1: But see you crush all these pills up. You know,

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Speaker 1: white powder, I don't know didn't have any effect on

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Speaker 1: m Sure it would have. But and your mother finds

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Speaker 1: the bag of white powder hidden in a drum kit

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Speaker 1: at home. And I don't blame any parent for being

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Speaker 1: alarmed when they think their kids falling into drug addiction

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Speaker 1: or hard drugs and so forth. But she did make

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Speaker 1: a telling decision because rather than deal with it within

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Speaker 1: the family, what did she do?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she called the police. This was sort of two

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Speaker 3: thousand and eight. It was kind of around the time

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Speaker 3: when ice was just starting to sort of become prolific

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Speaker 3: in Perth and in Australia. And I'd heard on the

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Speaker 3: radio that ice was being made from these cold and

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Speaker 3: flu pills which kind of had pseudoeffortrine as a base ingredient.

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Speaker 3: You know, I sort of thought, oh, well, you know,

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Speaker 3: if I crushed them up and put them in with

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Speaker 3: the caffeine pills, maybe that'll have some effect as well.

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Speaker 3: And so yeah, she called the police, and the police

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Speaker 3: came and did a kind of preliminary test on them,

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Speaker 3: and obviously, because it had the base ingredient of methamphetamine,

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Speaker 3: it responded to the test. And so they charged me

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Speaker 3: with dealing ice and sent me to juvenile attention. And

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Speaker 3: my parents were at their wits end. They didn't know

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Speaker 3: what to do. They sought the guidance of the police,

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Speaker 3: who they figured were experienced in these kinds of things.

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Speaker 3: But I think juvenile at tension had the complete opposite

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Speaker 3: effect to what was intended. It instilled in me this

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Speaker 3: hatred of authority. It made me even more angry, and

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Speaker 3: it told me that society rejected me and didn't accept me.

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Speaker 1: And your parents had given you up, lagged you to

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Speaker 1: the cops, and there you are, and you go on

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Speaker 1: from scholarship student to juvenile detention in Range View in Perth.

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Speaker 1: That first night is burned in your memory.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it is. It was a pretty horrific place.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was putting this observation cell. It's about

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Speaker 3: eight or nine cells in a semicircle around this kind

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Speaker 3: of central control room or with kind of like a fishbowl,

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Speaker 3: I guess, or with this you know, big floor to

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Speaker 3: ceiling perspex window. And there was blood and graffiti and

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Speaker 3: kind of dried toilet paper all over the wall. Lights

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Speaker 3: were on twenty four hours a day, and the aircom

218
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Speaker 3: was turned up full bast and just the screaming and

219
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Speaker 3: the yelling and the shouting coming from the other cells,

220
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Speaker 3: and there was a girl in the cell next to

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Speaker 3: me who's just smashing her head against the wall until

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Speaker 3: she cracked the glass. And the next morning we was

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Speaker 3: sort of woken up and strip searched and showered and

224
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Speaker 3: got prepared to go to court. And I remember sitting

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Speaker 3: in this little two by three meters sell with about

226
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Speaker 3: ten other people that I think I was one of

227
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Speaker 3: only two white kids in that cell. All of these

228
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Speaker 3: other guys in there were quite a bit older and

229
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Speaker 3: violent criminals as well, carthieves and robbers, and you know,

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Speaker 3: they were sitting there telling these stories. I could hardly

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Speaker 3: even understand the whether that they spoke and how well

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Speaker 3: were you I was thirteen thirteen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, little Lord Fauntleroy. Yeah, thrown in with the hardened

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Speaker 1: criminals at thirteen.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, you know, all of a sudden, I had

236
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Speaker 3: to try and adapt myself to this environment and this

237
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Speaker 3: is a place that I'd found myself and I had

238
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Speaker 3: to try and fit in.

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Speaker 1: And how long was that stint?

240
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Speaker 3: That was only one night. I was bailed. I was

241
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Speaker 3: bowed to my parents. I think they thought that by

242
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Speaker 3: working with the court they might be able to try

243
00:11:51,481 --> 00:11:53,881
Speaker 3: and take back some kind of semblance of control that

244
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Speaker 3: they hadn't before. But going to juvenile attention had the

245
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Speaker 3: complete opposite effect to what was intended.

246
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Speaker 1: And they were certainly working hard they were doing with them.

247
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Speaker 1: And that's the thing. I don't blame it. Like I

248
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Speaker 1: said before, I don't blame any parent going through the

249
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Speaker 1: for the first time looking at the range of solutions

250
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Speaker 1: open to them and realizing it's beyond their understanding, and

251
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Speaker 1: they look for institutional solutions. The next one was drug rehab,

252
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Speaker 1: which ironically was a window to hard drugs and criminal

253
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Speaker 1: connections which would sustain you over the next several years.

254
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Speaker 3: Yeah. No, that's right. I've breached my boil conditions and

255
00:12:26,961 --> 00:12:29,521
Speaker 3: was sent back to juvenile's attention sort of two or

256
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Speaker 3: three more times in the couple of months after that

257
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Speaker 3: first night, and eventually there was no one in my

258
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Speaker 3: family who could really be responsible for me or take

259
00:12:38,201 --> 00:12:39,921
Speaker 3: care of me. Everybody just thought I was too out

260
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Speaker 3: of control, and so I was sent to go and

261
00:12:43,041 --> 00:12:45,121
Speaker 3: stand this drug rehab. For three months, I lived in

262
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Speaker 3: this house in one of the outer suburbs of Perth.

263
00:12:48,121 --> 00:12:51,161
Speaker 3: I was surrounded by older, more experienced drug users, and

264
00:12:51,241 --> 00:12:53,561
Speaker 3: you know, they became like my family in a sense.

265
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Speaker 3: Had to try and adapt myself, to make myself fit

266
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Speaker 3: into that place and try and find a sense of

267
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Speaker 3: belonging there. And I did that by listening to their

268
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Speaker 3: stories and the things that they'd been through and trying

269
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Speaker 3: to copy them and repo them and pretend that I

270
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Speaker 3: was one of them as well. And you pretend for

271
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Speaker 3: long enough to try and be someone, eventually you become

272
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Speaker 3: that person. And that's what happened.

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Speaker 1: And these are your formative years. I mean, you've got

274
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Speaker 1: no other example. You're trying to make your way.

275
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Speaker 3: What happened next I got out of drug rehab I

276
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Speaker 3: think just after my fourteenth birthday. My parents were divorced

277
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Speaker 3: not long after, so.

278
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Speaker 1: They're busy with their own issues now, and they've got

279
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Speaker 1: this troublesome child, Tommy. We've also got the three other

280
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Speaker 1: children to look after and to deal with. Yeah, so

281
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Speaker 1: a lot was going on.

282
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I went looking for drugs. I had the means

283
00:13:38,161 --> 00:13:40,041
Speaker 3: to go and find them now, and you know, I'd

284
00:13:40,081 --> 00:13:42,081
Speaker 3: heard all these stories about them. I was curious about them,

285
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Speaker 3: and I wanted to know what it was all about.

286
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Speaker 3: You know, I'd spent three months in there listening to

287
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Speaker 3: these kids tell stories about getting high on ice and

288
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Speaker 3: going out and stealing cars and all these kinds of

289
00:13:52,321 --> 00:13:55,161
Speaker 3: things that they made sound really exciting, and Sanator Hall

290
00:13:55,201 --> 00:13:56,921
Speaker 3: a lot better than what I was going back to

291
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Speaker 3: where I was. So I was curious and I went

292
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Speaker 3: looking for it.

293
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Speaker 1: And you found it how I found it.

294
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Speaker 3: I started with drugs like heroin, an oxyconton and these things.

295
00:14:05,641 --> 00:14:08,081
Speaker 3: I didn't really like it. It made me sick, it

296
00:14:08,121 --> 00:14:10,041
Speaker 3: made me its year. It wasn't really what I was

297
00:14:10,041 --> 00:14:12,481
Speaker 3: looking for. I enjoyed the rush that I got from it,

298
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Speaker 3: but not really the high. You know, I kind of

299
00:14:14,761 --> 00:14:17,761
Speaker 3: enjoyed the first five minutes after injecting the drug, but

300
00:14:17,801 --> 00:14:19,921
Speaker 3: then afterwards when you sort of started to feel a

301
00:14:19,961 --> 00:14:22,401
Speaker 3: bit stoned. I didn't really like that. I didn't really

302
00:14:22,441 --> 00:14:24,481
Speaker 3: want to go to sleep and numb myself. I wanted

303
00:14:24,521 --> 00:14:27,441
Speaker 3: to kind of bring myself up out of myself. And

304
00:14:27,481 --> 00:14:29,521
Speaker 3: then through a friend of a friend, I was introduced

305
00:14:29,561 --> 00:14:32,321
Speaker 3: to another drug dealer who was twenty years older than me,

306
00:14:33,161 --> 00:14:36,121
Speaker 3: and he introduced me to ice and started schooling me

307
00:14:36,121 --> 00:14:36,561
Speaker 3: in crime.

308
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Speaker 1: And he was like your fagin to your all over twist. Yeah,

309
00:14:40,481 --> 00:14:43,121
Speaker 1: and he was an odd character. He was obviously been

310
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Speaker 1: right through the mill of criminality and drugs and mental

311
00:14:46,121 --> 00:14:47,001
Speaker 1: disorder as well.

312
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Speaker 3: He had. He'd been injecting ice for twenty years. He

313
00:14:50,121 --> 00:14:52,681
Speaker 3: was obsessed with stal wars figures and skulls which used

314
00:14:52,681 --> 00:14:56,521
Speaker 3: to swap for ice. And he schooled me in crime

315
00:14:56,561 --> 00:14:58,961
Speaker 3: and this criminal mentality and taught me how to deal

316
00:14:59,041 --> 00:15:00,921
Speaker 3: drugs and also how to survive in this world. Like

317
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Speaker 3: I guess he took me under his wing in a sense,

318
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Speaker 3: and maybe, you know, I thought he had the kind

319
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Speaker 3: of sense of duty to protect me or help me

320
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Speaker 3: in this world of violence and crime. And yeah, he

321
00:15:11,721 --> 00:15:13,201
Speaker 3: scored me and showed me the ropes.

322
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Speaker 1: I in no way condone this sort of drug use,

323
00:15:16,441 --> 00:15:20,161
Speaker 1: but I think it's true to say that individuals find

324
00:15:20,201 --> 00:15:24,081
Speaker 1: the drug that best suits their needs and for whatever reason,

325
00:15:24,281 --> 00:15:26,121
Speaker 1: ice was that for you? Why?

326
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Speaker 3: Yeah, people definitely go looking for particular drugs for particular reasons.

327
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Speaker 3: And I definitely suffered from a lack of self confidence.

328
00:15:33,801 --> 00:15:38,241
Speaker 3: I didn't like the person that I was, and I

329
00:15:38,321 --> 00:15:40,401
Speaker 3: brought me up and out of that, and it kind

330
00:15:40,441 --> 00:15:42,761
Speaker 3: of instilled this false kind of confidence in me and

331
00:15:43,001 --> 00:15:44,361
Speaker 3: made me feel on top of the world, and it

332
00:15:44,401 --> 00:15:47,521
Speaker 3: made me feel good about myself. That that was really

333
00:15:47,521 --> 00:15:50,201
Speaker 3: the addiction for me. That was what I was really

334
00:15:50,201 --> 00:15:50,721
Speaker 3: looking for.

335
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Speaker 1: And you were injecting it, which is not usually the

336
00:15:54,121 --> 00:15:56,761
Speaker 1: way that young people are introduced to it. They tend

337
00:15:56,801 --> 00:15:58,761
Speaker 1: to smoke it and so forth. But what was the

338
00:15:58,801 --> 00:16:00,201
Speaker 1: difference with injecting it?

339
00:16:00,241 --> 00:16:03,401
Speaker 3: Things escalated pretty quickly. Things escalated really quickly with me.

340
00:16:03,601 --> 00:16:07,441
Speaker 3: And that's I think the sensation that you get from

341
00:16:07,481 --> 00:16:10,441
Speaker 3: injecting the drug is far more potent and powerful. I've

342
00:16:10,441 --> 00:16:13,121
Speaker 3: never experienced anything else in my life like that. That's

343
00:16:13,161 --> 00:16:15,921
Speaker 3: so instant and just you know, I think smoking it,

344
00:16:16,161 --> 00:16:19,441
Speaker 3: that sensation is definitely more addictive. But I think the

345
00:16:19,481 --> 00:16:24,161
Speaker 3: actual ritual of smoking ice is a more repetitive kind

346
00:16:24,161 --> 00:16:26,641
Speaker 3: of ritual. You know, you continue smoking it and smoking

347
00:16:26,681 --> 00:16:29,041
Speaker 3: and smoking it, and you know, you almost get addicted

348
00:16:29,081 --> 00:16:31,481
Speaker 3: to just the smoking of it, whereas injecting it, you

349
00:16:31,561 --> 00:16:33,201
Speaker 3: have one shot and that's it and you're good for

350
00:16:33,201 --> 00:16:35,161
Speaker 3: another eight hours, and you know, you spend that other

351
00:16:35,201 --> 00:16:37,201
Speaker 3: eight hours sort of chasing enough money to go and

352
00:16:37,241 --> 00:16:39,321
Speaker 3: get more. And that, for me, that was a real

353
00:16:39,361 --> 00:16:43,321
Speaker 3: part of the addiction, That whole ritual and the chase,

354
00:16:43,521 --> 00:16:45,441
Speaker 3: the thrill of the chase, you know, the ice, the

355
00:16:45,521 --> 00:16:48,281
Speaker 3: drug itself was just something that kind of kept that

356
00:16:48,321 --> 00:16:49,121
Speaker 3: whole show going.

357
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Speaker 1: And Madow, as you said, was now showing you how

358
00:16:51,801 --> 00:16:55,001
Speaker 1: to get money and the crimes that would achieve that.

359
00:16:55,081 --> 00:16:56,441
Speaker 1: For you, what were you up to in terms of

360
00:16:56,521 --> 00:16:57,561
Speaker 1: your criminal pursuits.

361
00:16:57,801 --> 00:17:00,561
Speaker 3: I was selling drugs and you know, using the profits

362
00:17:00,601 --> 00:17:04,160
Speaker 3: to buy ice. I was stealing a lot. I was

363
00:17:04,241 --> 00:17:06,281
Speaker 3: just basically getting money however I could. And I didn't

364
00:17:06,321 --> 00:17:08,960
Speaker 3: really care who I stole it off, or where it

365
00:17:09,001 --> 00:17:10,841
Speaker 3: came from, or what I was doing. I just all

366
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,600
Speaker 3: I really thought about was that next shot from your family. Yeah,

367
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,161
Speaker 3: I stole from people I loved and who were close

368
00:17:17,201 --> 00:17:17,400
Speaker 3: to me.

369
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:19,801
Speaker 1: How do you feel about that now?

370
00:17:20,561 --> 00:17:24,200
Speaker 3: Pretty ashamed? That's not something I'm proud of. It's something

371
00:17:25,281 --> 00:17:28,360
Speaker 3: I regret because.

372
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,961
Speaker 1: This is the process that occurs where people fall to

373
00:17:31,001 --> 00:17:35,161
Speaker 1: this addiction and steal from family, and that creates more

374
00:17:35,201 --> 00:17:38,241
Speaker 1: distance and mistrust between the family, which actually accentuates all

375
00:17:38,241 --> 00:17:39,201
Speaker 1: the issues going on.

376
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:42,080
Speaker 3: Well that's right, Yeah, it just kind of perpetuates the problem,

377
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,041
Speaker 3: you know, you know, it makes you feel even worse

378
00:17:44,041 --> 00:17:47,640
Speaker 3: about yourself. And because you feel worse about yourself, I

379
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,961
Speaker 3: would go and try and block those feelings out in

380
00:17:50,001 --> 00:17:51,481
Speaker 3: the only way in which I knew how to deal

381
00:17:51,481 --> 00:17:53,561
Speaker 3: with them, which is by taking more drugs. And it's

382
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,640
Speaker 3: just this kind of cycle that kept going around and

383
00:17:55,721 --> 00:17:58,440
Speaker 3: round and round and faster and faster, and you know,

384
00:17:58,481 --> 00:17:59,920
Speaker 3: there's no real way of stopping it.

385
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,880
Speaker 1: Things became violent as well. You ripped off some guys

386
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:07,200
Speaker 1: with some drugs that weren't drugs.

387
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:09,681
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was exposed to violence from a pretty young age,

388
00:18:09,681 --> 00:18:11,640
Speaker 3: and at first time I was in juvenile attension, I

389
00:18:11,681 --> 00:18:14,360
Speaker 3: was exposed to a lot of violence, and I guess

390
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,120
Speaker 3: that became something that informed the way that I behave

391
00:18:18,241 --> 00:18:21,840
Speaker 3: and the way that I reacted to things. That world

392
00:18:21,921 --> 00:18:24,561
Speaker 3: is a pretty violent world as well. The first time

393
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,160
Speaker 3: I really got bashed was in a range of Juvenile

394
00:18:27,201 --> 00:18:29,321
Speaker 3: Detention Center. I was thirteen years old. I've got a

395
00:18:29,321 --> 00:18:32,481
Speaker 3: ping pong table smashed over my head for not really

396
00:18:32,481 --> 00:18:34,720
Speaker 3: any reason at all, just because I was on the

397
00:18:34,761 --> 00:18:37,681
Speaker 3: oval laughing with the mate and this other guy had

398
00:18:37,721 --> 00:18:39,920
Speaker 3: broken the rules and lost his power for the evening

399
00:18:39,921 --> 00:18:42,440
Speaker 3: and he sort of took it out on me. You know,

400
00:18:42,441 --> 00:18:43,720
Speaker 3: he had to go at me on the oval and

401
00:18:43,721 --> 00:18:45,880
Speaker 3: said I'll wait until we get back to the unit,

402
00:18:45,921 --> 00:18:47,841
Speaker 3: and I kind of didn't think anything of it. And

403
00:18:49,001 --> 00:18:50,440
Speaker 3: you know, a couple of hours later, I'm sitting there

404
00:18:50,481 --> 00:18:52,241
Speaker 3: in the unit waiting to play ping pong and him

405
00:18:52,241 --> 00:18:54,241
Speaker 3: and three of his cousins come running around the corner

406
00:18:54,241 --> 00:18:56,121
Speaker 3: and just picked me up and threw me on top

407
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:57,960
Speaker 3: of this ping pong table and smashed it over my

408
00:18:58,001 --> 00:19:00,761
Speaker 3: head for no reason at all. Really, I'm just sitting

409
00:19:00,801 --> 00:19:02,641
Speaker 3: there laughing with a mate, having a good time, and

410
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:07,161
Speaker 3: you know, suddenly I was exposed to this world of violence.

411
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,120
Speaker 3: And violence, I guess, is a language that knows no

412
00:19:10,281 --> 00:19:14,161
Speaker 3: logic or no reason. There's no real way to respond

413
00:19:14,201 --> 00:19:17,441
Speaker 3: to it other than with that language of violence itself.

414
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,961
Speaker 3: And that was something that I had to learn and adopt.

415
00:19:21,001 --> 00:19:24,321
Speaker 1: And you were involved in violent incidents that you initiated.

416
00:19:24,521 --> 00:19:28,001
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there are a few robberies. And yeah, I think,

417
00:19:28,041 --> 00:19:29,321
Speaker 3: like a lot of young men, I had a lot

418
00:19:29,321 --> 00:19:33,281
Speaker 3: of things confused. Kindness could be easily confused for weakness,

419
00:19:33,321 --> 00:19:36,160
Speaker 3: and I had fear confused with respect as well. And

420
00:19:36,241 --> 00:19:38,120
Speaker 3: I think, you know, that was how that world worked.

421
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:40,440
Speaker 3: If people were afraid of you, that was kind of

422
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,640
Speaker 3: considered as respect. It's, oh, you know, this guy's so

423
00:19:43,761 --> 00:19:45,880
Speaker 3: and so, and nobody wants to go near him, and

424
00:19:45,961 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 3: he's you know, he's a big figure. And yeah, that

425
00:19:48,041 --> 00:19:50,200
Speaker 3: was that was something that I had confused, Like a

426
00:19:50,201 --> 00:19:51,801
Speaker 3: lot of young misguided men.

427
00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,880
Speaker 1: You're moving down this path and you're not happy about it.

428
00:19:55,921 --> 00:19:58,681
Speaker 1: You're not happy in any sense. You're becoming more depressed

429
00:19:58,721 --> 00:20:01,080
Speaker 1: and anxious. You know, the more drugs you have, the

430
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,360
Speaker 1: more you have to have. And you thall me were

431
00:20:03,441 --> 00:20:04,441
Speaker 1: quite of steep depression.

432
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,481
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I've got to admit it's deep within.

433
00:20:07,561 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 3: I wasn't happy, I wasn't content, I wasn't fulfilled. But

434
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,441
Speaker 3: this life was also exciting as well, and it kind

435
00:20:15,441 --> 00:20:19,001
Speaker 3: of presented, I guess, something of an antidote to that depression.

436
00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:22,120
Speaker 3: I mean, it definitely perpetuated as well because of the

437
00:20:22,201 --> 00:20:24,041
Speaker 3: drugs that I was taking, the things that they were doing.

438
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 3: That was no solution for the way I felt. But

439
00:20:26,521 --> 00:20:29,041
Speaker 3: it was also exciting. It was an adventure and it

440
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 3: took me away from the way that I felt. And

441
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 3: it wasn't just the drugs that I did that. It

442
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,840
Speaker 3: was the lifestyle that went along with that too. You know.

443
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,200
Speaker 3: It was going out and stealing things and staying out

444
00:20:38,281 --> 00:20:40,441
Speaker 3: late and seeing what kinds of trouble we could get

445
00:20:40,441 --> 00:20:43,200
Speaker 3: ourselves into and how we could source money to go

446
00:20:43,281 --> 00:20:46,281
Speaker 3: and get our next shot of ice or Yeah, in

447
00:20:46,321 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 3: a way, it was. It was its own kind of

448
00:20:48,120 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 3: sordid adventure, I guess.

449
00:20:49,961 --> 00:20:52,041
Speaker 1: And you're becoming a better crook because you weren't getting

450
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,600
Speaker 1: caught as much and you weren't doing more juvenile attention.

451
00:20:55,761 --> 00:20:58,961
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was being schooled in that, so I understood

452
00:20:59,281 --> 00:21:01,360
Speaker 3: how to be a better criminal. And you know, things

453
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:03,441
Speaker 3: had happened and I'd learned from that experience. Is one

454
00:21:03,481 --> 00:21:06,241
Speaker 3: example where I ripped these guys off for an amount

455
00:21:06,281 --> 00:21:08,321
Speaker 3: of drugs and a week later they set me up

456
00:21:08,321 --> 00:21:10,400
Speaker 3: in the park and bashed me and stripped me of

457
00:21:10,441 --> 00:21:13,920
Speaker 3: everything and broke my jaw with bricks and star pickets

458
00:21:13,921 --> 00:21:15,640
Speaker 3: and ride and pushed back over my face. And I

459
00:21:15,681 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 3: spent the next six weeks eating out of a straw,

460
00:21:18,001 --> 00:21:20,321
Speaker 3: and Madaw kind of tried to school me in a

461
00:21:20,321 --> 00:21:22,640
Speaker 3: way that taught me how to be better. He taught

462
00:21:22,681 --> 00:21:24,881
Speaker 3: me how to be different and how to avoid those

463
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 3: things from happening, and what I could do next time.

464
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,120
Speaker 3: And yeah, I started, Yeah, I started learning from those things,

465
00:21:30,241 --> 00:21:33,361
Speaker 3: and I guess becoming a better criminal one soon.

466
00:21:33,481 --> 00:21:36,721
Speaker 1: Rain's falling now outside, it's certainly a steamy, wet day

467
00:21:36,761 --> 00:21:39,961
Speaker 1: here in Bali. How did you see the future. If

468
00:21:40,001 --> 00:21:41,881
Speaker 1: you did see the future, were you just living day

469
00:21:41,921 --> 00:21:45,801
Speaker 1: to day in a kind of almost an animalistic survival mode.

470
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,521
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just reacting to urges and instincts. Really,

471
00:21:48,561 --> 00:21:50,961
Speaker 3: I didn't think about the future. I didn't have any

472
00:21:50,961 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 3: goals or ambitions or long term plans or you know.

473
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,041
Speaker 3: All I cared about was that particular moment and what

474
00:21:57,120 --> 00:21:59,441
Speaker 3: I could get in my lungs or in my arm

475
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,321
Speaker 3: or Yeah, the future wasn't really a prospect for me

476
00:22:02,321 --> 00:22:02,601
Speaker 3: at all.

477
00:22:03,281 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 1: And what was happening with your relationship with family through this?

478
00:22:06,201 --> 00:22:09,441
Speaker 3: It completely fallen apart. My mum and dad both had

479
00:22:09,521 --> 00:22:13,721
Speaker 3: pretty different ways of responding to it. Mum's I guess,

480
00:22:13,721 --> 00:22:16,761
Speaker 3: always been a pretty determined person and someone who's tried

481
00:22:16,801 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 3: to grab the problem and sort of try and steer

482
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,041
Speaker 3: it in the right direction, whereas my dad was a

483
00:22:22,041 --> 00:22:23,001
Speaker 3: bit more hands off.

484
00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:23,321
Speaker 1: You know.

485
00:22:23,441 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 3: He knew that there wasn't a lot that he could do,

486
00:22:25,721 --> 00:22:27,641
Speaker 3: and I guess he tried to keep me close and

487
00:22:27,721 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 3: maybe try and guide me back down, try and guide

488
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 3: me down to rock bottom so it'd be there to

489
00:22:31,721 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 3: help me push back up once I was there. But

490
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 3: I guess deep in this hole and just kept digging

491
00:22:37,721 --> 00:22:40,921
Speaker 3: this hole deeper, and no matter how much people tried

492
00:22:40,961 --> 00:22:44,161
Speaker 3: to reach down and help pull me out, didn't want

493
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,601
Speaker 3: the help. I wouldn't accept their help. I was stuck.

494
00:22:47,681 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 1: I remember your father telling me that he dreamt or

495
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,120
Speaker 1: imagined himself standing at the edge of your grave.

496
00:22:56,241 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, her dad did say that to me once, and

497
00:22:58,521 --> 00:23:01,241
Speaker 3: I think Mum said that she kind of always knew

498
00:23:01,281 --> 00:23:03,681
Speaker 3: that I would be okay, And Dad said he felt

499
00:23:03,681 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 3: a similar way as well, up until that point where

500
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 3: I had that dream. And I think he got to

501
00:23:08,441 --> 00:23:11,161
Speaker 3: a point where he started to become really afraid.

502
00:23:12,041 --> 00:23:15,681
Speaker 1: And you were becoming afraid or depressed to the point

503
00:23:15,721 --> 00:23:19,680
Speaker 1: where the adventure was souring, and you also tried to

504
00:23:19,721 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: take your own life.

505
00:23:20,721 --> 00:23:24,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I did. I guess three incidents I can

506
00:23:24,721 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 3: remember that were really pivotal moments in this I guess

507
00:23:27,961 --> 00:23:31,561
Speaker 3: that made me understand that I needed to change my life.

508
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 3: The first was a psychotic episode. I'd been awake for

509
00:23:35,001 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 3: ten days on ice and went running around the streets

510
00:23:38,041 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 3: with a meat cleaver, chasing somebody who wasn't there. And

511
00:23:41,201 --> 00:23:44,401
Speaker 3: the second, Yeah, I was trying to change but couldn't

512
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,241
Speaker 3: do it. It was all too hard, and so I tried

513
00:23:46,241 --> 00:23:48,801
Speaker 3: to hang myself off the beam in my mum's garage,

514
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 3: and the beam snapped out of the wall as I

515
00:23:51,041 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 3: was hanging.

516
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 1: We talked about this this morning, and I could see

517
00:23:55,521 --> 00:23:57,561
Speaker 1: that it came back to you in a very visceral way.

518
00:23:57,961 --> 00:24:01,041
Speaker 1: And I guess, as we reflect here about what you've achieved,

519
00:24:01,041 --> 00:24:03,281
Speaker 1: since you think this wouldn't have occurred had that beam

520
00:24:03,481 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: not snapped. How close you were to snuffing at you

521
00:24:07,721 --> 00:24:10,281
Speaker 1: all your potential. How do you reflect on that now?

522
00:24:10,801 --> 00:24:13,441
Speaker 3: Well, it's true, it's a difficult thing to go back

523
00:24:13,441 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 3: and revisit all this. You know, I've come a long

524
00:24:15,481 --> 00:24:17,281
Speaker 3: way since a lot of that, and yeah, it's a

525
00:24:17,321 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 3: part of me. It's an experience that I've lived that

526
00:24:20,481 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 3: I guess has shaped my outlook on the world and

527
00:24:23,681 --> 00:24:25,801
Speaker 3: the person that I am. But also I tried it

528
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 3: to let that define me as well. And there are

529
00:24:27,681 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 3: many other things that I've done and many other things

530
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 3: that I'm doing that contribute to the person that I

531
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,041
Speaker 3: am and the person I've become. It is hard to

532
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,561
Speaker 3: go back and revisit these things and pull myself back

533
00:24:37,561 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 3: into that particular moment. It's not a pleasant one and

534
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 3: it's a difficult place to go, for sure.

535
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: It is. It really isn't for me When I when

536
00:24:45,241 --> 00:24:47,041
Speaker 1: we talked about this morning, it was real for me

537
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,561
Speaker 1: in a way that it wasn't before. When I see

538
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: what you've done since, and I'm so grateful that fortune

539
00:24:54,681 --> 00:24:57,761
Speaker 1: was in your favor at that moment and you have

540
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,961
Speaker 1: moved on. But there's still some legacies of those choices

541
00:25:01,961 --> 00:25:07,441
Speaker 1: and the relationships you had, in particular your best mate Sam,

542
00:25:07,481 --> 00:25:10,961
Speaker 1: who's still in jail to this day serving a life

543
00:25:10,961 --> 00:25:11,801
Speaker 1: sentence for murder.

544
00:25:12,321 --> 00:25:15,361
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess you know, there were definitely a handful

545
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,321
Speaker 3: of fork in the road kind of moments along the way,

546
00:25:19,001 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 3: and I don't know if you've ever seen that movie

547
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,801
Speaker 3: The Butterfly Effect, where all these different potential outcomes for

548
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,321
Speaker 3: the way that a life can look based on different

549
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 3: decisions in one particular moment. And I guess in the

550
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 3: past I've looked back at some of those moments and gone, well,

551
00:25:36,201 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 3: what if this had happened or what if that had happened?

552
00:25:38,921 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 3: But you know, I also believe that everything happens the

553
00:25:42,481 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 3: way that it should, and that you know, our lives

554
00:25:46,041 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 3: are destined to a particular course. To some extent, that

555
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:53,201
Speaker 3: murder that Sam committed was definitely one of those moments

556
00:25:53,321 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 3: where I had started to turn the corner. Sam was

557
00:25:57,481 --> 00:26:00,041
Speaker 3: my best friend. He was still kind of stuck in

558
00:26:00,041 --> 00:26:03,521
Speaker 3: that world, and just after he committed the murdery he

559
00:26:03,681 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 3: called me and asked for my help. You know, I

560
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 3: waited for him to come and help, and eventually he

561
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,241
Speaker 3: decided that no, he didn't want to drag me into that.

562
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 3: And you know, he was eventually arrested and convicted and

563
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 3: received a life sentence. Whereas you know, one really vivid

564
00:26:17,961 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 3: moment that this up, I guess was I remember just

565
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 3: after he had been arrested and was on remand in

566
00:26:23,681 --> 00:26:26,281
Speaker 3: Haykia prison, and I just got my driver's license, and

567
00:26:26,321 --> 00:26:30,201
Speaker 3: I was driving down the coast to you on the

568
00:26:30,241 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 3: first weekend surfing trip away with my mates, and we

569
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,641
Speaker 3: drove past a turn off to where Sam had gone

570
00:26:36,681 --> 00:26:39,561
Speaker 3: and buried the body and kept driving and went surfing

571
00:26:39,561 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 3: and had a good weekend away.

572
00:26:41,761 --> 00:26:43,041
Speaker 1: And I want to go into the circumstances of the

573
00:26:43,041 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 1: mentor of book. If you want to go back to

574
00:26:44,201 --> 00:26:46,601
Speaker 1: meth destruction, you can hear more about that. I don't

575
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,041
Speaker 1: think it's worth going back over detail of that, but

576
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: there was a critical moment where Sam decided not to

577
00:26:54,281 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: involve you, not to come and get you, which would

578
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,681
Speaker 1: have made you an accessory to that murder while disposing

579
00:27:00,721 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 1: of the body.

580
00:27:01,281 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 3: You owe a lot, I guess I do in a sense,

581
00:27:04,241 --> 00:27:07,281
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know if I owe him a lot,

582
00:27:07,321 --> 00:27:09,521
Speaker 3: as in I feel indebted to him in a way,

583
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 3: but I have a lot to thank him for and

584
00:27:12,321 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 3: I'm grateful for the decision that he made for choosing

585
00:27:15,201 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 3: not to drag me into that.

586
00:27:17,041 --> 00:27:19,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a moment where when he were talking

587
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,441
Speaker 1: to Sam over a video call, and he was sitting

588
00:27:22,441 --> 00:27:25,241
Speaker 1: there in his green T shirt classic in mat garb

589
00:27:25,241 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: and you're sitting there in your green rip curl T shirt. Balley,

590
00:27:29,561 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: I said to you, circumstances were different, there'd be no

591
00:27:33,041 --> 00:27:34,761
Speaker 1: rip curl BALLEI on that green. It just be a

592
00:27:34,761 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: green T shirt and haking a prison.

593
00:27:36,801 --> 00:27:39,081
Speaker 3: Yeah, both wearing very different shades of greener.

594
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: And he's had to confront the consequences of his decisions.

595
00:27:44,041 --> 00:27:46,801
Speaker 1: I feel like you've been living some of his life

596
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,761
Speaker 1: for him, and you've kept your relationship. And I think

597
00:27:49,921 --> 00:27:52,001
Speaker 1: one thing that really really touched my heart was when

598
00:27:52,001 --> 00:27:55,441
Speaker 1: he said that a lot of his friends and family

599
00:27:55,481 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: have dropped off and you've stuck with him. So I

600
00:27:59,001 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: think there is a debt of gratitude at least.

601
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 3: Well, I think there was a connection and there was

602
00:28:03,681 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 3: something that we share, and I guess, you know, we

603
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,161
Speaker 3: both lived experiences that not a lot of other people

604
00:28:10,241 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 3: can relate to, and since that murder, we've both been

605
00:28:12,481 --> 00:28:14,881
Speaker 3: on our own journeys and I think both of those

606
00:28:14,961 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 3: journeys have played out in similar ways, albeit in very

607
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:22,361
Speaker 3: different circumstances. And you know, there are not a lot

608
00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:26,481
Speaker 3: of other people I find who can relate to those experiences.

609
00:28:26,561 --> 00:28:28,841
Speaker 3: You know, people can listen to them and be enthralled

610
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,761
Speaker 3: by them. But you know how many people can actually

611
00:28:31,801 --> 00:28:34,721
Speaker 3: understands There's very few. You know, my younger brother's one

612
00:28:34,761 --> 00:28:38,281
Speaker 3: and Sam's another. And yeah, it's just he gets it.

613
00:28:38,321 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 3: He understands. And I think we've both been on our

614
00:28:41,521 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 3: own journeys in uncovered similar wisdoms and insights into ourselves

615
00:28:46,241 --> 00:28:48,321
Speaker 3: and the world around us, but just in our own

616
00:28:48,361 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 3: different ways.

617
00:28:49,881 --> 00:28:53,561
Speaker 1: Because he said to you that he feels like he's

618
00:28:53,561 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: in the place that he needs to be, which sounds

619
00:28:56,841 --> 00:28:58,801
Speaker 1: perverse to people from the outside who'd want to be

620
00:28:58,881 --> 00:29:02,001
Speaker 1: in prison, but that has been He's ten years older

621
00:29:02,001 --> 00:29:04,241
Speaker 1: than you, by the way, he's just turned forty. Yeah,

622
00:29:04,281 --> 00:29:06,921
Speaker 1: and a big chunk of his life has been spenting there.

623
00:29:07,041 --> 00:29:09,881
Speaker 1: He's found a way to retain hope.

624
00:29:10,681 --> 00:29:12,681
Speaker 3: I remember saying that to him. I remember saying, oh,

625
00:29:12,761 --> 00:29:14,721
Speaker 3: you know that I was proud of him and despite

626
00:29:14,721 --> 00:29:17,681
Speaker 3: the circumstances, I was proud of the person who had

627
00:29:17,721 --> 00:29:20,161
Speaker 3: become in the journey that he'd been on. And he

628
00:29:20,641 --> 00:29:23,681
Speaker 3: responded to that pretty abruptly. He said, you need to

629
00:29:23,761 --> 00:29:28,041
Speaker 3: change that way of thinking. You know. It's these circumstances

630
00:29:28,081 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 3: are not necessarily bad, he said to me, this is

631
00:29:31,521 --> 00:29:34,161
Speaker 3: exactly where I need to be. This is what was

632
00:29:34,161 --> 00:29:37,121
Speaker 3: supposed to happen, and this is life exactly it was

633
00:29:37,201 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 3: as it was planned out for me, and I'm exactly

634
00:29:39,041 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 3: in the place that I need to be, where I

635
00:29:41,321 --> 00:29:44,081
Speaker 3: was able to uncover the lessons which I needed to uncover,

636
00:29:45,161 --> 00:29:47,881
Speaker 3: you know. And he said that as a prisoner he

637
00:29:47,961 --> 00:29:52,081
Speaker 3: often goes through that same experience of he's got a

638
00:29:52,081 --> 00:29:53,561
Speaker 3: lot of time to think, and he thinks a lot

639
00:29:53,601 --> 00:29:56,561
Speaker 3: about what would have happened if I did this differently

640
00:29:56,641 --> 00:29:59,001
Speaker 3: or did that differently. And I think he's made peace

641
00:29:59,041 --> 00:30:01,561
Speaker 3: with that and come to terms with it, you know,

642
00:30:01,641 --> 00:30:04,881
Speaker 3: he's asked himself, well, you know, you can't think like that,

643
00:30:05,081 --> 00:30:07,281
Speaker 3: because who knows if he would even still be here

644
00:30:07,681 --> 00:30:09,801
Speaker 3: if that murder hadn't have happened and he hadn't been

645
00:30:09,881 --> 00:30:12,401
Speaker 3: arrested and gone to prison. Who knows if he would

646
00:30:12,601 --> 00:30:13,521
Speaker 3: even still be alive.

647
00:30:14,321 --> 00:30:17,921
Speaker 1: Because that is certainly a feature of some people's prison experiences.

648
00:30:17,961 --> 00:30:21,041
Speaker 1: Once they're behind bars and they come down off the drugs,

649
00:30:21,041 --> 00:30:23,721
Speaker 1: they get sober, they get the insight. And I've dealt

650
00:30:23,801 --> 00:30:27,121
Speaker 1: with this many times with prisoners I've corresponded with, and

651
00:30:27,161 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: they have great clarity and they can articulate things that

652
00:30:30,481 --> 00:30:34,321
Speaker 1: they never could before while they're in that animalistic survival

653
00:30:34,361 --> 00:30:38,281
Speaker 1: mode that you know all so well. And also I

654
00:30:38,361 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: reflect on the fact that those fourteen years that he's

655
00:30:41,521 --> 00:30:45,841
Speaker 1: spent inside, you've been turning your life around and making

656
00:30:45,841 --> 00:30:49,201
Speaker 1: a successive things. All those waves you've caught, all those

657
00:30:49,241 --> 00:30:51,761
Speaker 1: places you've been, the insights you've had. As you say,

658
00:30:51,761 --> 00:30:55,281
Speaker 1: you've come to a similar place, but through very different circumstances.

659
00:30:55,601 --> 00:31:00,881
Speaker 1: Sam is now hopefully will be released in the coming years.

660
00:31:01,721 --> 00:31:03,801
Speaker 1: What will be your relationship with him from here on

661
00:31:03,881 --> 00:31:05,281
Speaker 1: and what will you share with him? How do you

662
00:31:05,321 --> 00:31:06,321
Speaker 1: see the future with him?

663
00:31:07,041 --> 00:31:10,161
Speaker 3: I think of that world of drugs that I was

664
00:31:10,201 --> 00:31:13,161
Speaker 3: involved in. Sam as the only person that I've kept

665
00:31:13,201 --> 00:31:16,241
Speaker 3: in contact with. I think him and I shared something

666
00:31:16,241 --> 00:31:18,761
Speaker 3: that went far deeper than just the drugs. I think

667
00:31:18,801 --> 00:31:20,281
Speaker 3: a lot of other friends I had that was all

668
00:31:20,281 --> 00:31:21,801
Speaker 3: we really had in common, that was all we had

669
00:31:21,801 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 3: to connect over, whereas Sam and I shared something much deeper.

670
00:31:26,081 --> 00:31:31,201
Speaker 3: And I know for Sam that the real struggle will

671
00:31:31,241 --> 00:31:34,001
Speaker 3: come when he gets out of prison. You know, he's

672
00:31:34,321 --> 00:31:37,281
Speaker 3: spent almost a whole lifetime in there. You know he's

673
00:31:37,281 --> 00:31:40,121
Speaker 3: going to come out and find a very different world,

674
00:31:40,121 --> 00:31:43,521
Speaker 3: and I wonder how some of the hopes and dreams

675
00:31:44,201 --> 00:31:46,201
Speaker 3: that he has us. You know, I think he's also

676
00:31:46,241 --> 00:31:49,401
Speaker 3: going to find some disappointment as well. I do worry

677
00:31:49,441 --> 00:31:51,961
Speaker 3: for him when he'll get out, and what will come

678
00:31:52,001 --> 00:31:54,201
Speaker 3: of his life, and what he'll be able to make

679
00:31:54,241 --> 00:31:57,361
Speaker 3: of his life, and what kind of future awaits him

680
00:31:57,441 --> 00:31:59,201
Speaker 3: outside of those prison walls.

681
00:32:00,881 --> 00:32:03,121
Speaker 1: Yeah, what I did like about your dialogue with him

682
00:32:03,161 --> 00:32:05,001
Speaker 1: was that he's not trying to wish away what he did.

683
00:32:05,761 --> 00:32:10,081
Speaker 1: He feels genuine remorse for what happened, and the victim,

684
00:32:10,121 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: even though the victim himself was not a good person,

685
00:32:13,201 --> 00:32:14,841
Speaker 1: was going to do some terrible things. We won't go

686
00:32:14,841 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: into what he was going to do, but this was

687
00:32:16,481 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: not a random murder. But he has the capacity to

688
00:32:22,801 --> 00:32:26,001
Speaker 1: forgive himself for what he did, so he doesn't just

689
00:32:26,041 --> 00:32:28,521
Speaker 1: go back into that negative image of himself. And I

690
00:32:28,521 --> 00:32:30,681
Speaker 1: think you've done the same thing to a large extent.

691
00:32:32,361 --> 00:32:36,361
Speaker 1: His example maybe has helped you bolt that door which

692
00:32:36,441 --> 00:32:39,121
Speaker 1: was previously a revolving door drugs and crime.

693
00:32:39,681 --> 00:32:41,841
Speaker 3: Well, I think we've both been through that journey of

694
00:32:41,881 --> 00:32:44,961
Speaker 3: self forgiveness. You know, I think we've both done things

695
00:32:45,001 --> 00:32:49,441
Speaker 3: that we're not proud of. To different extents. And yeah,

696
00:32:49,481 --> 00:32:52,401
Speaker 3: that journey of self forgiveness is something that anybody who's

697
00:32:52,721 --> 00:32:55,641
Speaker 3: experienced drug addiction has to go through, and that's a

698
00:32:55,681 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 3: difficult thing. It's not an easy thing to do, you know.

699
00:32:58,521 --> 00:33:02,881
Speaker 3: I think it's easy to forgive other people for the

700
00:33:02,921 --> 00:33:05,921
Speaker 3: mistakes that they've made, you know, through a of understanding

701
00:33:06,201 --> 00:33:10,241
Speaker 3: and empathy. But how do you forgive yourself? You know,

702
00:33:10,801 --> 00:33:13,121
Speaker 3: how do you forgive yourself for these things that you've done?

703
00:33:13,161 --> 00:33:15,161
Speaker 3: And there might be certain things that they triggering you

704
00:33:15,201 --> 00:33:16,921
Speaker 3: and that you perpetuate, and how do you let go

705
00:33:17,001 --> 00:33:18,801
Speaker 3: of all that and start again? How do you almost

706
00:33:18,841 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 3: reprogram yourself in a way, how do you wipe the

707
00:33:21,481 --> 00:33:24,121
Speaker 3: slate clean and start again. That's not an easy thing

708
00:33:24,161 --> 00:33:27,281
Speaker 3: to do for me, and I know for Sam as well.

709
00:33:27,321 --> 00:33:29,881
Speaker 3: That's been a long journey that we've both had to

710
00:33:29,921 --> 00:33:33,161
Speaker 3: go through. And I guess the way in which I've

711
00:33:33,201 --> 00:33:36,881
Speaker 3: done that is by acts of kindness towards myself, by

712
00:33:36,921 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 3: being kind towards myself, looking after myself, taking care of myself,

713
00:33:41,201 --> 00:33:43,521
Speaker 3: and learning to love myself again and let go of

714
00:33:43,601 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 3: some of the things that I've done, and also to

715
00:33:47,041 --> 00:33:50,001
Speaker 3: redefine myself in a way to move away from that

716
00:33:50,081 --> 00:33:52,441
Speaker 3: and to become a different person, to shape myself away

717
00:33:52,481 --> 00:33:56,161
Speaker 3: from those experiences that have defined me, and maybe even

718
00:33:56,401 --> 00:33:58,801
Speaker 3: you know, physically going away from a place that defined

719
00:33:58,841 --> 00:33:59,401
Speaker 3: me as well.

720
00:33:59,961 --> 00:34:02,041
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you really have redefined yourself. And I

721
00:34:02,081 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: look at the ten years I've known you, and I

722
00:34:04,241 --> 00:34:07,601
Speaker 1: think it's an isis often through hard work. You went

723
00:34:07,641 --> 00:34:11,441
Speaker 1: back to school, you completed year twelve, you went to university,

724
00:34:11,481 --> 00:34:14,001
Speaker 1: you became a journalist. One of the proudest moments for

725
00:34:14,041 --> 00:34:15,921
Speaker 1: me was sitting there with your dad when you were

726
00:34:16,001 --> 00:34:18,641
Speaker 1: named as WA's Young Journalist of the Year. You're smiling.

727
00:34:18,681 --> 00:34:20,481
Speaker 1: I remember that was a beautiful day. And so you've

728
00:34:20,481 --> 00:34:23,321
Speaker 1: made every post to win it, and you've gone onto

729
00:34:23,321 --> 00:34:26,001
Speaker 1: a career in journalism. You've come up to Indonesia, you're

730
00:34:26,001 --> 00:34:28,601
Speaker 1: still on a quest. And this film you're making, The

731
00:34:28,641 --> 00:34:32,081
Speaker 1: Long Road Home, is about the road forward as much

732
00:34:32,081 --> 00:34:34,481
Speaker 1: as it is the road you've come along.

733
00:34:34,921 --> 00:34:37,441
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's like, well, I guess we're all.

734
00:34:37,841 --> 00:34:39,921
Speaker 3: You know, all young people are looking for something and

735
00:34:39,961 --> 00:34:43,321
Speaker 3: searching for something, aren't they. And I think, you know,

736
00:34:44,361 --> 00:34:46,801
Speaker 3: the past couple of years, I've spent sort of riding

737
00:34:46,801 --> 00:34:49,761
Speaker 3: a motorbike across Indonesia, and you know, I guess I

738
00:34:49,841 --> 00:34:53,681
Speaker 3: set out looking for empty waves and you know, adventure,

739
00:34:53,761 --> 00:34:56,761
Speaker 3: and I think that might have been something that helped

740
00:34:56,801 --> 00:34:59,001
Speaker 3: me move away from drugs, but I think within that

741
00:34:59,081 --> 00:35:02,121
Speaker 3: I was also looking for something that wasn't possible to

742
00:35:02,161 --> 00:35:03,921
Speaker 3: find there as well. I think I was looking for

743
00:35:03,961 --> 00:35:09,601
Speaker 3: a sense of home within myself, and I was maybe running,

744
00:35:09,841 --> 00:35:13,081
Speaker 3: you know, moving away from these things and trying to

745
00:35:13,121 --> 00:35:15,721
Speaker 3: seek something just beyond, when what I was actually looking

746
00:35:15,721 --> 00:35:18,041
Speaker 3: for was probably right there all along. I just had to,

747
00:35:18,801 --> 00:35:20,841
Speaker 3: I guess, unlock the way inside.

748
00:35:20,881 --> 00:35:24,601
Speaker 1: Really, one of the themes that we've talked about a

749
00:35:24,601 --> 00:35:29,761
Speaker 1: lot over ten years is rediscovering joy after the artificial

750
00:35:29,881 --> 00:35:36,041
Speaker 1: chemical highs and those superficial relationships you have with other

751
00:35:36,121 --> 00:35:38,921
Speaker 1: drug users. And I've seen it so many times over

752
00:35:38,921 --> 00:35:41,081
Speaker 1: the years. Oh my brother, I love you, my brother.

753
00:35:41,401 --> 00:35:43,921
Speaker 1: You know, we'll die for each other, and then pretty

754
00:35:43,961 --> 00:35:45,761
Speaker 1: much you always see that kid in the dock on

755
00:35:45,801 --> 00:35:47,561
Speaker 1: his own and the friends have given him up, and

756
00:35:47,641 --> 00:35:50,401
Speaker 1: so those superficial relationships, and I think you've been You've

757
00:35:50,441 --> 00:35:52,001
Speaker 1: found a way to do that. And I think that's

758
00:35:52,001 --> 00:35:54,681
Speaker 1: such an object lesson for anyone listening who's going through

759
00:35:54,721 --> 00:35:56,761
Speaker 1: the groups of drug addiction now and crime and things.

760
00:35:56,801 --> 00:36:00,041
Speaker 1: Is to reassure oneself that through hard work there is

761
00:36:00,081 --> 00:36:03,641
Speaker 1: a capacity for joy after that. What's been your process

762
00:36:03,681 --> 00:36:06,841
Speaker 1: towards that. It's not been easy, and they've been setbacks

763
00:36:06,881 --> 00:36:10,321
Speaker 1: and turnings on this journey. You know, I think.

764
00:36:10,121 --> 00:36:14,001
Speaker 3: After taking drugs there's a chemical imbalance in your brain

765
00:36:14,041 --> 00:36:17,241
Speaker 3: where it's difficult for your brain to actually produce dopamine.

766
00:36:17,641 --> 00:36:19,401
Speaker 3: And you know, you've kind of been living on this

767
00:36:19,601 --> 00:36:21,681
Speaker 3: plane of really high eighs and low lows, and it's

768
00:36:21,721 --> 00:36:23,321
Speaker 3: hard to kind of go back to living on a

769
00:36:23,361 --> 00:36:26,641
Speaker 3: steady plane again and to appreciate the simple things in life.

770
00:36:26,641 --> 00:36:28,321
Speaker 3: And I think for me that took a long time.

771
00:36:28,761 --> 00:36:30,921
Speaker 3: I think a big part of that was leaving Perth

772
00:36:30,961 --> 00:36:33,361
Speaker 3: and moving down to Margaret River and learning to appreciate

773
00:36:33,961 --> 00:36:36,521
Speaker 3: simple things like growing my own food and going surfing

774
00:36:36,561 --> 00:36:38,481
Speaker 3: and you know, living in a caravan in the bush

775
00:36:38,521 --> 00:36:41,921
Speaker 3: and living in a really simple way, learning to appreciate

776
00:36:42,001 --> 00:36:44,041
Speaker 3: the beauty and the joy of life around me. And

777
00:36:44,041 --> 00:36:46,801
Speaker 3: I think that was something that took a good few

778
00:36:46,881 --> 00:36:48,321
Speaker 3: years just to accomplish.

779
00:36:48,561 --> 00:36:50,161
Speaker 1: Sure. And I think you've said many times in this

780
00:36:50,201 --> 00:36:51,761
Speaker 1: process of making the film that you do feel like

781
00:36:51,801 --> 00:36:54,601
Speaker 1: you're running. You were going around Australia with your land

782
00:36:54,641 --> 00:36:57,361
Speaker 1: drover and your little tiny boat. You were going around

783
00:36:57,361 --> 00:37:00,081
Speaker 1: the circles. But you know that wasn't going to contain you.

784
00:37:00,441 --> 00:37:02,921
Speaker 1: And you literally had to learn a new language in

785
00:37:02,961 --> 00:37:06,961
Speaker 1: your life. And it's literally a new language, Indonesian. You

786
00:37:07,001 --> 00:37:10,281
Speaker 1: now speak fluent into Indonesian, which is equipped to you

787
00:37:10,361 --> 00:37:14,681
Speaker 1: for this journey right outside yourself in other cultures and

788
00:37:14,721 --> 00:37:18,361
Speaker 1: to interpret those lives. And I think that's just wonderful,

789
00:37:18,401 --> 00:37:20,441
Speaker 1: and I think people can learn new skills, and I

790
00:37:20,521 --> 00:37:23,361
Speaker 1: think that's the key, a new way of looking at

791
00:37:23,401 --> 00:37:23,921
Speaker 1: your own life.

792
00:37:24,521 --> 00:37:27,121
Speaker 3: It's true, and I guess, you know, I think coming

793
00:37:27,121 --> 00:37:30,201
Speaker 3: to another country and experiencing another country and other people

794
00:37:30,241 --> 00:37:32,481
Speaker 3: than a different way of thinking and viewing and understanding

795
00:37:32,481 --> 00:37:34,481
Speaker 3: the world. That's helped to change my own perspective as

796
00:37:34,521 --> 00:37:39,201
Speaker 3: well and my own understanding of myself. It's also had

797
00:37:39,241 --> 00:37:42,561
Speaker 3: an influence on my own view and my own understanding

798
00:37:42,561 --> 00:37:45,201
Speaker 3: of myself and the person that I am. You know,

799
00:37:45,201 --> 00:37:47,361
Speaker 3: it's also allowed me to redefine myself in a way

800
00:37:47,841 --> 00:37:52,281
Speaker 3: away from a place that had defined me to an extent,

801
00:37:52,481 --> 00:37:54,761
Speaker 3: and yeah, to move away from that and become a

802
00:37:54,801 --> 00:37:55,801
Speaker 3: new and different person.

803
00:37:56,321 --> 00:37:58,401
Speaker 1: People often want to transform themselves, and I think as

804
00:37:58,401 --> 00:38:01,321
Speaker 1: a bit of a falsity that one can have these

805
00:38:01,361 --> 00:38:04,121
Speaker 1: parts that you despise of yourself and you're going to

806
00:38:04,161 --> 00:38:06,841
Speaker 1: rub those out and everything's going to be fine. And

807
00:38:06,881 --> 00:38:09,201
Speaker 1: I think the process has been one of accepting oneself.

808
00:38:09,201 --> 00:38:10,681
Speaker 1: And I invited you to listen to one of my

809
00:38:10,681 --> 00:38:15,121
Speaker 1: favorite philosophers, Alan Watts, who a British philosopher, is unfortunately late,

810
00:38:15,481 --> 00:38:19,561
Speaker 1: but he talks about the fact that this constant desire

811
00:38:19,721 --> 00:38:23,201
Speaker 1: to change oneself, to erase those things you don't like

812
00:38:23,201 --> 00:38:25,681
Speaker 1: about oneself, is actually the problem. You know, that's the

813
00:38:25,761 --> 00:38:29,201
Speaker 1: quaking mess, and thinking that this process of transformation is

814
00:38:29,241 --> 00:38:31,721
Speaker 1: going to be the great virtue when in fact that's

815
00:38:31,721 --> 00:38:35,441
Speaker 1: the problem. And I think you've come to that understanding

816
00:38:35,481 --> 00:38:39,041
Speaker 1: that accepting oneself, all your flaws and all your history,

817
00:38:39,481 --> 00:38:42,881
Speaker 1: has been a way of moving forward, carrying less of

818
00:38:42,921 --> 00:38:43,361
Speaker 1: the burden.

819
00:38:43,721 --> 00:38:45,601
Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, maybe that's what I was

820
00:38:45,641 --> 00:38:48,161
Speaker 3: looking for through all this running, and you know, searching

821
00:38:48,241 --> 00:38:51,081
Speaker 3: for something is maybe just this contentment with who I

822
00:38:51,121 --> 00:38:53,001
Speaker 3: am and where I'm at and the person that I am,

823
00:38:53,001 --> 00:38:56,121
Speaker 3: and accepting that person for all of his flaws and

824
00:38:56,201 --> 00:38:59,721
Speaker 3: mistakes and regrets, and that's formed a big part of

825
00:38:59,721 --> 00:39:03,601
Speaker 3: who I am. And I think, you know, life is

826
00:39:04,241 --> 00:39:06,801
Speaker 3: exactly the way it's supposed to be, and you know,

827
00:39:06,921 --> 00:39:09,481
Speaker 3: all of these things were supposed to happen. I've arrived

828
00:39:09,601 --> 00:39:12,801
Speaker 3: now exactly in the place where I'm meant to be,

829
00:39:13,841 --> 00:39:16,841
Speaker 3: and it's through that journey I've been able to arrive

830
00:39:17,201 --> 00:39:21,401
Speaker 3: at an understanding and acceptance of myself that I didn't

831
00:39:21,441 --> 00:39:24,041
Speaker 3: have before. You know, I am different, and I am

832
00:39:24,081 --> 00:39:26,401
Speaker 3: the person that I am, and I'm okay with that person.

833
00:39:27,081 --> 00:39:29,841
Speaker 1: You kind of played in getting your first tattoo. We've

834
00:39:29,841 --> 00:39:34,201
Speaker 1: talked about this and it's come from a Javanese expression.

835
00:39:34,521 --> 00:39:37,081
Speaker 3: What is it? It's a difficult one to translate. It's

836
00:39:37,201 --> 00:39:40,601
Speaker 3: I guess it's a phrase that's unique to a particular people,

837
00:39:41,161 --> 00:39:44,801
Speaker 3: but it translates roughly to be patient. Your destiny is

838
00:39:44,801 --> 00:39:47,841
Speaker 3: already determined or your fortune's already determined.

839
00:39:47,721 --> 00:39:49,961
Speaker 1: And so all that negative stuff was just part of

840
00:39:49,961 --> 00:39:53,201
Speaker 1: that that was already ordained. You had to go through

841
00:39:53,201 --> 00:39:55,641
Speaker 1: that to get to the next phase of your life,

842
00:39:55,641 --> 00:39:56,361
Speaker 1: which you're in now.

843
00:39:57,041 --> 00:39:59,761
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that phrase kind of sums it up.

844
00:39:59,801 --> 00:40:02,441
Speaker 3: You know, everything has happened the way that it's supposed

845
00:40:02,481 --> 00:40:05,001
Speaker 3: to happen. And I guess it sums up that idea

846
00:40:05,121 --> 00:40:09,521
Speaker 3: year of acceptance, of accepting that this is the way

847
00:40:09,561 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 3: that I am, and this is the way that things

848
00:40:10,961 --> 00:40:14,161
Speaker 3: were supposed to happen, and exactly as it was supposed

849
00:40:14,161 --> 00:40:16,841
Speaker 3: to be, and it always exactly as it's supposed to be.

850
00:40:17,761 --> 00:40:21,001
Speaker 1: And there are probably hopefully thousands of people listening to

851
00:40:21,041 --> 00:40:25,481
Speaker 1: this podcast, A certain percentage will be saying, that's me

852
00:40:26,121 --> 00:40:32,041
Speaker 1: or that's my son. What does your experience offer those people?

853
00:40:33,001 --> 00:40:35,361
Speaker 3: I guess hope, you know, I guess hope that there

854
00:40:35,481 --> 00:40:39,241
Speaker 3: is a future and there is a way forward, and

855
00:40:39,441 --> 00:40:42,281
Speaker 3: there is life beyond drugs, and you know, it might

856
00:40:42,361 --> 00:40:45,641
Speaker 3: not seem like it. Sometimes it might seem that things

857
00:40:45,681 --> 00:40:48,761
Speaker 3: might often look pretty bleak and dark, but you know,

858
00:40:48,841 --> 00:40:51,561
Speaker 3: with hard work and persistence and determination that there is

859
00:40:51,601 --> 00:40:53,081
Speaker 3: a way forward and there is a way through this,

860
00:40:53,241 --> 00:40:57,521
Speaker 3: and with some intent and determination, the future does look

861
00:40:57,561 --> 00:40:59,041
Speaker 3: pretty bright and.

862
00:40:59,001 --> 00:41:00,681
Speaker 1: There is a place that you can call home. And

863
00:41:00,721 --> 00:41:02,681
Speaker 1: this is still a focus on this film. By the way,

864
00:41:02,721 --> 00:41:05,881
Speaker 1: you're preparing to go back to Perth. Now you don't

865
00:41:05,881 --> 00:41:07,721
Speaker 1: know what the future holds, Maybe you go back there.

866
00:41:08,041 --> 00:41:10,041
Speaker 1: I means since i've known you. You've been threatening to

867
00:41:10,081 --> 00:41:12,201
Speaker 1: go back to Perth to find that home that you

868
00:41:12,321 --> 00:41:16,401
Speaker 1: never really felt. I'm not sure it's there, and I

869
00:41:16,401 --> 00:41:18,681
Speaker 1: don't think you can adequately answer that question yet, but

870
00:41:18,721 --> 00:41:22,521
Speaker 1: you're still there's still another chapter of that restoration and

871
00:41:22,521 --> 00:41:24,241
Speaker 1: that sense of home, which I think a lot of

872
00:41:24,281 --> 00:41:27,641
Speaker 1: young people who get involved in crime and drugs, I

873
00:41:27,681 --> 00:41:30,801
Speaker 1: don't really like that, and they've destroyed their families and

874
00:41:30,841 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: there's not much to go back to. Fortunately, you have

875
00:41:33,521 --> 00:41:36,241
Speaker 1: rebuilt the bridges with your family, but that may not

876
00:41:36,321 --> 00:41:37,761
Speaker 1: be your ultimate destination.

877
00:41:38,001 --> 00:41:39,921
Speaker 3: Well, I think what this journey's really been about is

878
00:41:39,961 --> 00:41:42,921
Speaker 3: finding a sense of home within myself, you know, understanding

879
00:41:42,921 --> 00:41:44,801
Speaker 3: and accepting that this is the person that I am

880
00:41:44,841 --> 00:41:47,721
Speaker 3: and this is where I belong. You know. Home might

881
00:41:47,761 --> 00:41:50,201
Speaker 3: not be back in that particular place, but for a

882
00:41:50,241 --> 00:41:53,161
Speaker 3: long time I didn't feel at home within myself. And

883
00:41:54,121 --> 00:41:59,121
Speaker 3: I think that's really what I've been running around and

884
00:41:59,161 --> 00:42:02,361
Speaker 3: looking for and chasing, is that sense of acceptance within myself.

885
00:42:02,841 --> 00:42:03,041
Speaker 1: You know.

886
00:42:03,161 --> 00:42:08,321
Speaker 3: I think going back to a place that fits the

887
00:42:08,361 --> 00:42:11,281
Speaker 3: traditional idea of home, the traditional context of home is

888
00:42:11,321 --> 00:42:13,641
Speaker 3: I guess a reference point for that. You know, my

889
00:42:13,721 --> 00:42:15,681
Speaker 3: family are there and it's a place where I spent

890
00:42:15,761 --> 00:42:18,081
Speaker 3: a good chunk of time growing up, and it might

891
00:42:18,681 --> 00:42:20,281
Speaker 3: for a lot of people that might be home. But

892
00:42:20,481 --> 00:42:25,281
Speaker 3: I think you know the understanding that there's no sense

893
00:42:25,281 --> 00:42:27,281
Speaker 3: of home within that, but there's a sense, you know,

894
00:42:27,361 --> 00:42:30,241
Speaker 3: maybe I've discovered a sense of home within myself, and

895
00:42:30,281 --> 00:42:32,561
Speaker 3: I think that'll be a big reference point for that

896
00:42:32,601 --> 00:42:35,081
Speaker 3: and a big understanding of sure.

897
00:42:35,121 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: I think one of the achievements has been to free

898
00:42:38,041 --> 00:42:42,081
Speaker 1: yourself of all that past, to give yourself options that

899
00:42:42,281 --> 00:42:44,721
Speaker 1: people in the criminal justice system simply don't have their

900
00:42:44,801 --> 00:42:48,521
Speaker 1: choices narrow down. But now at age thirty, it's trying

901
00:42:48,521 --> 00:42:50,801
Speaker 1: to make some decisions about what happens in the future.

902
00:42:51,361 --> 00:42:53,881
Speaker 1: And I'm just fascinated to see what happens. I've got

903
00:42:53,881 --> 00:42:56,641
Speaker 1: an inkling and I've watched you over these ten years,

904
00:42:57,201 --> 00:42:59,201
Speaker 1: and I'm just so proud of you.

905
00:42:59,721 --> 00:43:02,121
Speaker 3: Now, Thanks Adam, And I'm really grateful for all the

906
00:43:02,881 --> 00:43:05,601
Speaker 3: help and advice and guidance and support that you've given

907
00:43:05,641 --> 00:43:06,961
Speaker 3: me along the way. You know, you've made a big

908
00:43:07,001 --> 00:43:08,041
Speaker 3: impact on my life.

909
00:43:08,481 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, there have been some moments while we've clashed. Yeah,

910
00:43:12,521 --> 00:43:15,081
Speaker 1: and I've seen that defiance and I've seen that kid

911
00:43:15,161 --> 00:43:18,001
Speaker 1: that was in that terrible spotshep. But you just you've

912
00:43:18,001 --> 00:43:20,041
Speaker 1: done it on You've pulled yourself up by your bootstraps.

913
00:43:20,041 --> 00:43:22,281
Speaker 1: And I think that's just incredibly admirable that I've never

914
00:43:22,321 --> 00:43:24,281
Speaker 1: said to this to any other person I've been given

915
00:43:24,321 --> 00:43:26,881
Speaker 1: on this podcast with grumbing Adam shand I do love you.

916
00:43:27,281 --> 00:43:28,161
Speaker 3: I love you too, Adam.

917
00:43:28,201 --> 00:43:30,761
Speaker 1: Thanks, Matte, we'll leave it there. Thanks so much for

918
00:43:30,801 --> 00:43:32,761
Speaker 1: your time, mate. Yeah, I can't wait to see this film.

919
00:43:32,881 --> 00:43:35,361
Speaker 1: The Long Road at Home will be in cinemas at

920
00:43:35,361 --> 00:43:38,081
Speaker 1: a date to be fixed in the future, still in progress,

921
00:43:38,081 --> 00:43:39,841
Speaker 1: but it's going to be a fantastic journey. And I

922
00:43:39,881 --> 00:43:42,641
Speaker 1: think it's just it offers so much, and Tom's story

923
00:43:42,641 --> 00:43:45,601
Speaker 1: offers so much to all those people out there who

924
00:43:45,601 --> 00:43:47,881
Speaker 1: are battling with this. Don't give up on your children.

925
00:43:48,361 --> 00:43:51,201
Speaker 1: Try your best. You're going to make mistakes, you will,

926
00:43:51,801 --> 00:43:55,321
Speaker 1: and they'll continue to disappoint you and cause your dramas.

927
00:43:55,561 --> 00:43:57,961
Speaker 1: But I think what I love about Tom experiences they

928
00:43:58,001 --> 00:44:01,201
Speaker 1: have stuck the journey. There have been moments where they

929
00:44:01,321 --> 00:44:04,041
Speaker 1: it's been very tough, but they're still there. They're still

930
00:44:04,081 --> 00:44:06,721
Speaker 1: in this corner even though the thicket sometimes and I'm

931
00:44:06,721 --> 00:44:08,601
Speaker 1: really proud of them as well. But so you know,

932
00:44:08,601 --> 00:44:11,281
Speaker 1: I love your kids as best you can give them

933
00:44:11,841 --> 00:44:14,321
Speaker 1: second chance, third chance, as many chances as they need,

934
00:44:14,761 --> 00:44:19,321
Speaker 1: because the potential is there. If love is there, What

935
00:44:19,361 --> 00:44:20,721
Speaker 1: can I say? What can I say? Oh?

936
00:44:20,761 --> 00:44:22,921
Speaker 3: I think I think what this is really about is

937
00:44:22,961 --> 00:44:25,401
Speaker 3: not so much about drugs, And you know, I think

938
00:44:25,441 --> 00:44:27,761
Speaker 3: it's about finding a way as a young man. And

939
00:44:27,801 --> 00:44:30,361
Speaker 3: that's the thing that all young men struggle through, you know,

940
00:44:30,401 --> 00:44:33,361
Speaker 3: with the lack of guidance and rituals, and you know,

941
00:44:33,681 --> 00:44:37,121
Speaker 3: I guess male role models to some extent as well,

942
00:44:37,641 --> 00:44:39,481
Speaker 3: and it's it's not an easy thing to find you

943
00:44:39,601 --> 00:44:41,201
Speaker 3: as a young man in a modern day and age.

944
00:44:41,281 --> 00:44:44,281
Speaker 3: You know, that's something that led me down this pretty

945
00:44:44,361 --> 00:44:47,841
Speaker 3: dark path. But yeah, I mean I guess I've been

946
00:44:47,881 --> 00:44:50,441
Speaker 3: able to find my way forward and find a path.

947
00:44:52,121 --> 00:44:58,481
Speaker 1: Well said, as Tom says, stay patient, your fortune is

948
00:44:58,521 --> 00:45:02,241
Speaker 1: already ordained. Thank you for listening. If you have a

949
00:45:02,241 --> 00:45:04,401
Speaker 1: crime you want to commit, don't do it. If you

950
00:45:04,401 --> 00:45:07,321
Speaker 1: have a crime you want to report, call crime Stoppers

951
00:45:07,321 --> 00:45:09,881
Speaker 1: one need to hundred, triple three, triple zero. I do

952
00:45:09,921 --> 00:45:12,641
Speaker 1: take the very seriously. Police will attend to your information.

953
00:45:12,881 --> 00:45:15,001
Speaker 1: But if you don't trust the coppers please send me

954
00:45:15,041 --> 00:45:18,641
Speaker 1: an email Adam Shanner writer at gmail dot com. Thank

955
00:45:18,681 --> 00:45:20,841
Speaker 1: you for listening. This has been real crime with Adam

956
00:45:20,881 --> 00:45:21,161
Speaker 1: shann