1 00:00:04,230 --> 00:00:06,690 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,690 --> 00:00:10,110 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Late last year, the Federal Parliament passed a very 3 00:00:10,110 --> 00:00:14,160 Sean Aylmer: important piece of legislation simply called the Respect at Work 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,730 Sean Aylmer: Act. It's designed to do exactly what the name suggests, 5 00:00:17,730 --> 00:00:19,860 Sean Aylmer: make the workplace safe for all, with a focus on 6 00:00:19,860 --> 00:00:23,460 Sean Aylmer: stamping out harassment. So now that this legislation is in 7 00:00:23,460 --> 00:00:26,970 Sean Aylmer: place, companies and employees need to be across the changes, 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,970 Sean Aylmer: their rights, their obligations, and of course how to comply 9 00:00:29,970 --> 00:00:33,420 Sean Aylmer: with the law. Deborah Coram is the Chief Executive Officer 10 00:00:33,420 --> 00:00:37,530 Sean Aylmer: at Compliance Training Business Safetrac. Deborah, welcome to Fear and Greed. 11 00:00:37,860 --> 00:00:39,390 Deborah Coram: Thanks, Sean. Thanks for having me. 12 00:00:39,690 --> 00:00:41,640 Sean Aylmer: Let's start with the basics. What are the main points 13 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:43,979 Sean Aylmer: covered in the Respect at Work Act? 14 00:00:44,790 --> 00:00:48,059 Deborah Coram: Yeah, so the most significant parts of the reform are 15 00:00:48,060 --> 00:00:52,500 Deborah Coram: that it places a positive duty on employers to take 16 00:00:52,500 --> 00:00:58,320 Deborah Coram: reasonable and proportionate measures to eliminate sex discrimination, including sexual 17 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,850 Deborah Coram: harassment as far as possible in the workplace. What that 18 00:01:02,850 --> 00:01:06,660 Deborah Coram: effectively means is that they need to proactively prevent conduct 19 00:01:06,690 --> 00:01:09,959 Deborah Coram: rather than just responding to it after it occurred. It 20 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,010 Deborah Coram: also prohibits hostile workplaces and environments on the grounds of 21 00:01:14,010 --> 00:01:19,529 Deborah Coram: sex, and it also and significantly expands the human rights Commission's 22 00:01:19,590 --> 00:01:23,010 Deborah Coram: investigative and enforcement powers. So it sort of turns them 23 00:01:23,010 --> 00:01:24,360 Deborah Coram: into a regulator, if you like. 24 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,810 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Any of us who have been in the workplace 25 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,340 Sean Aylmer: for a while kind of shudder at some of the things 26 00:01:32,340 --> 00:01:37,560 Sean Aylmer: we experienced 20 years ago. Are workplaces as bad, I 27 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,870 Sean Aylmer: think the answer to that is yes, but why is 28 00:01:39,870 --> 00:01:42,480 Sean Aylmer: it necessary to have legislation to do this? 29 00:01:43,770 --> 00:01:46,920 Deborah Coram: Well, I think you've probably answered your own question in 30 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,160 Deborah Coram: that many people over the years have suffered sexual harassment, 31 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,790 Deborah Coram: and unfortunately, Sean, there has been some workplaces that are 32 00:01:53,790 --> 00:01:57,420 Deborah Coram: doing it much better, but we're still seeing a frightening 33 00:01:57,510 --> 00:02:01,860 Deborah Coram: amount of incidences occurring. And in really large and significant 34 00:02:01,860 --> 00:02:05,340 Deborah Coram: organizations, we're seeing it right at the top level. CEOs, 35 00:02:05,580 --> 00:02:07,890 Deborah Coram: we see it on the front headline of the papers, 36 00:02:08,250 --> 00:02:10,770 Deborah Coram: people being removed now, or at least it coming up 37 00:02:10,770 --> 00:02:14,640 Deborah Coram: in the news, but it's endemic in many, many workplaces. 38 00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:18,270 Sean Aylmer: So being proactive or preventing it to the best of 39 00:02:18,270 --> 00:02:20,579 Sean Aylmer: their ability, what does that mean for a business? 40 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,750 Deborah Coram: Yeah, so that's an interesting one, and we have been 41 00:02:24,780 --> 00:02:28,139 Deborah Coram: set out some fairly clear guidelines of what the expectations 42 00:02:28,139 --> 00:02:31,889 Deborah Coram: are though it's important to understand that those expectations will 43 00:02:31,889 --> 00:02:35,070 Deborah Coram: depend on the size of the business. So what's reasonable 44 00:02:35,070 --> 00:02:37,800 Deborah Coram: and practicable is going to depend upon the size of 45 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,610 Deborah Coram: the business and its resources. So the expectations for a 46 00:02:41,610 --> 00:02:44,280 Deborah Coram: small business might be to ensure that their policies are 47 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,520 Deborah Coram: updated and they do some basic training on staff. For 48 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,300 Deborah Coram: a larger business, the expectations are going to be much 49 00:02:51,300 --> 00:02:54,690 Deborah Coram: greater. So we would look at making sure we've got 50 00:02:54,690 --> 00:02:59,190 Deborah Coram: clear policies and procedures for reporting and addressing sexual harassment 51 00:02:59,190 --> 00:03:03,630 Deborah Coram: in the workplace, regular training and education on what it is 52 00:03:03,990 --> 00:03:06,990 Deborah Coram: and how to prevent it and report it. Fostering a 53 00:03:06,990 --> 00:03:12,090 Deborah Coram: culture of respect across the workplace and promoting a culture 54 00:03:12,300 --> 00:03:18,720 Deborah Coram: of diversity, equality, inclusion, and open communication. Holding managers and 55 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:23,880 Deborah Coram: leaders accountable for creating and maintaining a harassment free workplace. 56 00:03:24,450 --> 00:03:27,360 Deborah Coram: A workplace which encourages employees to speak up with a 57 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:32,730 Deborah Coram: clear reporting process and system in place, proper process for 58 00:03:32,730 --> 00:03:38,910 Deborah Coram: investigating reports, a zero tolerance policy for harassment and swift 59 00:03:38,910 --> 00:03:43,050 Deborah Coram: and disciplinary action for those who violate the policy and 60 00:03:43,050 --> 00:03:46,890 Deborah Coram: providing support and resources to employees who may have experienced 61 00:03:46,890 --> 00:03:50,430 Deborah Coram: harassment such as counseling services. So it's pretty holistic what's 62 00:03:50,430 --> 00:03:55,050 Deborah Coram: being expected of companies across for a larger sized organization. 63 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:01,320 Sean Aylmer: What's the first step? Everything you've just said, it sounds 64 00:04:01,410 --> 00:04:06,990 Sean Aylmer: great, but so much of this is cultural andculture probably starts at 65 00:04:06,990 --> 00:04:10,290 Sean Aylmer: the top. What do CEOs and leaders need to do 66 00:04:10,770 --> 00:04:13,800 Sean Aylmer: tomorrow or today when they're going to their workplace? 67 00:04:14,820 --> 00:04:17,940 Deborah Coram: Yeah, so you are quite right in that sexual harassment 68 00:04:17,940 --> 00:04:20,790 Deborah Coram: actually starts as a social problem, and we can put 69 00:04:20,790 --> 00:04:24,360 Deborah Coram: in place these measures, but the reality is if we've 70 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,510 Deborah Coram: got a leadership team that doesn't really understand these issues 71 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,690 Deborah Coram: or doesn't care about them, which is what many workplaces 72 00:04:30,690 --> 00:04:33,930 Deborah Coram: are actually faced with, we have to start there. So 73 00:04:33,930 --> 00:04:37,409 Deborah Coram: we really need to start with the top and making 74 00:04:37,589 --> 00:04:39,900 Deborah Coram: the leadership of a business care. So how do we 75 00:04:39,900 --> 00:04:43,739 Deborah Coram: make leaders of a business care? So first of all, 76 00:04:43,740 --> 00:04:46,680 Deborah Coram: we would show the impact that sexual harassment has on 77 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,400 Deborah Coram: employees, that it can affect the company's reputation and the 78 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:55,140 Deborah Coram: financial bottom line. That can certainly help establish importance for 79 00:04:55,140 --> 00:04:59,700 Deborah Coram: addressing the issue. Making it personal, making sure that leaders 80 00:04:59,730 --> 00:05:02,219 Deborah Coram: think about their own experiences and those of their friends, 81 00:05:02,220 --> 00:05:05,910 Deborah Coram: families and colleagues to help them gain a deeper understanding 82 00:05:05,910 --> 00:05:09,330 Deborah Coram: of the impact sexual harassment can have. And making sure 83 00:05:09,330 --> 00:05:12,870 Deborah Coram: that leaders are accountable, that they're responsible for creating and 84 00:05:12,870 --> 00:05:16,830 Deborah Coram: maintaining harassment free workplaces and making sure they're held accountable 85 00:05:16,830 --> 00:05:19,260 Deborah Coram: for their staff and the people that work for them. 86 00:05:20,370 --> 00:05:24,630 Deborah Coram: Providing training and education is critical in changing behaviors and 87 00:05:24,630 --> 00:05:28,740 Deborah Coram: changing thoughts on the topic. Starting with leaders and then 88 00:05:28,740 --> 00:05:30,779 Deborah Coram: looking at training going through to the rest of the 89 00:05:30,779 --> 00:05:35,490 Deborah Coram: organization, generally fostering a culture of respect, and that might 90 00:05:35,490 --> 00:05:39,659 Deborah Coram: be looking right back to things such as policies on 91 00:05:39,660 --> 00:05:44,310 Deborah Coram: respect, equality, and inclusion. And by looking at these type 92 00:05:44,310 --> 00:05:48,090 Deborah Coram: of things, we can start to prevent sexual harassment occurring, 93 00:05:48,450 --> 00:05:52,320 Deborah Coram: and we also show a commitment to creating a safe 94 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,400 Deborah Coram: and respectful workplace and then leading by example. We want 95 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,349 Deborah Coram: to model the behavior that we want to see in 96 00:05:58,350 --> 00:06:03,210 Deborah Coram: the workplace. So we want to ensure that our leaders are ensuring 97 00:06:03,210 --> 00:06:06,960 Deborah Coram: that their conduct is exemplary and teaches everybody else how 98 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:08,280 Deborah Coram: to behave across the workplace. 99 00:06:08,790 --> 00:06:11,010 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Deborah. We'll be back in a minute. 100 00:06:17,610 --> 00:06:21,029 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Deborah Coram, CEO of Safetrac. 101 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,150 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So this brings a board into it too. We 102 00:06:24,150 --> 00:06:27,060 Sean Aylmer: have had examples in the past couple of years, whereas 103 00:06:27,060 --> 00:06:30,510 Sean Aylmer: a CEO has left and it's been made clear why 104 00:06:30,510 --> 00:06:35,580 Sean Aylmer: they have left because of inappropriate behavior. There's also examples 105 00:06:35,580 --> 00:06:37,830 Sean Aylmer: where boards have said, " Well, they're on their way, thanks 106 00:06:37,830 --> 00:06:40,950 Sean Aylmer: very much." And it's emerged later that the real reason 107 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,250 Sean Aylmer: for them leaving was inappropriate behavior. It kind of makes 108 00:06:44,250 --> 00:06:47,370 Sean Aylmer: me angry when someone, a board lets someone go and 109 00:06:47,370 --> 00:06:50,760 Sean Aylmer: says, it's all okay when it's not all okay. How 110 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,100 Sean Aylmer: important is it for the board to actually fess up? 111 00:06:53,790 --> 00:06:56,580 Deborah Coram: Really important, and in fact, the ability for us to 112 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,160 Deborah Coram: sort of hide this sort of thing under the carpet, 113 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,670 Deborah Coram: so to speak, has been eliminated, such that the ability 114 00:07:02,670 --> 00:07:08,190 Deborah Coram: to have confidentiality deeds suppressing this information are being eliminated. 115 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,679 Deborah Coram: And we want to be able to come out and 116 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,890 Deborah Coram: actually own these behaviors. Say, this has happened. Say this 117 00:07:13,890 --> 00:07:17,040 Deborah Coram: was a consequence to this action and this isn't going 118 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,260 Deborah Coram: to happen again, and if it does, this is what's 119 00:07:19,260 --> 00:07:21,900 Deborah Coram: going to happen. So having those sort of clear and 120 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:28,890 Deborah Coram: accountable disclosures and consequences for breaches of behavior is critical 121 00:07:28,890 --> 00:07:31,860 Deborah Coram: to addressing this issue in a workplace and indeed in 122 00:07:31,860 --> 00:07:32,580 Deborah Coram: our society. 123 00:07:33,420 --> 00:07:36,840 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So how important was, or is the Bruce Lehrmann 124 00:07:36,900 --> 00:07:40,860 Sean Aylmer: trial, which he was accused though not found guilty at 125 00:07:40,860 --> 00:07:45,480 Sean Aylmer: this point of raping a staffer in Parliament House, how 126 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,900 Sean Aylmer: important was that to actually bring it to the fore? 127 00:07:49,860 --> 00:07:53,370 Deborah Coram: I think utterly critical. I think what it showed is 128 00:07:53,370 --> 00:07:57,150 Deborah Coram: that this sort of conduct occurs in the highest levels 129 00:07:57,180 --> 00:08:02,100 Deborah Coram: of government and across businesses that most businesses don't know 130 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:06,000 Deborah Coram: how to handle a report. The way that the report 131 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,930 Deborah Coram: of Brittany Higgins was investigated and handled within that workplace 132 00:08:09,930 --> 00:08:14,250 Deborah Coram: was utterly appalling, and the treatment that she received and 133 00:08:14,250 --> 00:08:19,530 Deborah Coram: how it was investigated falls short of every methodology of 134 00:08:19,530 --> 00:08:24,660 Deborah Coram: how to report with sensitivity a person who has been 135 00:08:24,660 --> 00:08:30,150 Deborah Coram: traumatized by an incident in the workplace. And their failure of 136 00:08:30,150 --> 00:08:34,860 Deborah Coram: that workplace to accommodate and treat somebody respectfully after something 137 00:08:34,860 --> 00:08:38,579 Deborah Coram: has happened. But to almost cast doubt onto that situation, 138 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,780 Deborah Coram: unfortunately, they question the wrong person, and this time she 139 00:08:42,780 --> 00:08:46,170 Deborah Coram: was an extremely strong individual who decided to stand up 140 00:08:46,170 --> 00:08:48,990 Deborah Coram: and say, this is not okay. And she really has 141 00:08:48,990 --> 00:08:53,130 Deborah Coram: brought everything to light that has forced us and the 142 00:08:53,130 --> 00:08:55,710 Deborah Coram: hand of government and the hand of every other business 143 00:08:55,710 --> 00:08:58,679 Deborah Coram: to say, this is not okay. Change has to happen. 144 00:08:58,860 --> 00:09:02,670 Deborah Coram: So yeah, I think the whole Brittany Higgins saga and 145 00:09:02,670 --> 00:09:06,449 Deborah Coram: her bravery has been instrumental in creating this change. I 146 00:09:06,450 --> 00:09:09,839 Deborah Coram: also think it came alongside the Me Too movement and 147 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,900 Deborah Coram: the Speak Up movement, and I think that there is 148 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:17,430 Deborah Coram: a much stronger voice across society for women are not 149 00:09:17,460 --> 00:09:19,860 Deborah Coram: going to tolerate these behaviors any longer. 150 00:09:20,490 --> 00:09:21,870 Sean Aylmer: How hopeful are you? 151 00:09:22,290 --> 00:09:27,150 Deborah Coram: Really hopeful. I think this legislation is the strongest legislation 152 00:09:27,150 --> 00:09:29,010 Deborah Coram: that I've seen passed. I've been in compliance a very 153 00:09:29,010 --> 00:09:32,970 Deborah Coram: long time, and this legislation that is not about making 154 00:09:32,970 --> 00:09:36,960 Deborah Coram: something illegal and saying this cannot happen in the workplace, 155 00:09:37,530 --> 00:09:40,709 Deborah Coram: for it to then change into a proactive duty to 156 00:09:40,710 --> 00:09:44,699 Deborah Coram: say the organization has to do everything possible to prevent 157 00:09:44,700 --> 00:09:49,020 Deborah Coram: it. That's a whole level different level of compliance. So 158 00:09:49,020 --> 00:09:52,290 Deborah Coram: what happens is when somebody says, you can't do that, 159 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,660 Deborah Coram: the immediate thing to do is to check the box, 160 00:09:55,050 --> 00:09:58,290 Deborah Coram: is to say, " Okay, I've done some training. I've checked 161 00:09:58,290 --> 00:10:00,870 Deborah Coram: the box. If something happens, I'm not going to be 162 00:10:00,870 --> 00:10:04,650 Deborah Coram: vicariously liable because I trained my staff. I tried for 163 00:10:04,650 --> 00:10:07,500 Deborah Coram: it not to happen." Well, that's not going to fly 164 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,040 Deborah Coram: under this legislation because what the commission is going to 165 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,290 Deborah Coram: come and look at and say, " Did you do everything 166 00:10:13,290 --> 00:10:17,069 Deborah Coram: reasonably possible?" Did you survey? Did you talk to your 167 00:10:17,070 --> 00:10:20,790 Deborah Coram: staff? Did you look at benchmarking behaviors before this all 168 00:10:20,790 --> 00:10:24,329 Deborah Coram: started? Did you have policies in place? Did you back 169 00:10:24,330 --> 00:10:27,929 Deborah Coram: up those policies with training? Did you regularly communicate it? 170 00:10:28,290 --> 00:10:31,949 Deborah Coram: Did you fully investigate every conduct that happened that wasn't 171 00:10:32,100 --> 00:10:35,760 Deborah Coram: okay? Did you have proper remediation for the people who'd 172 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,540 Deborah Coram: been harassed? Did you have proper consequences for those found 173 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,960 Deborah Coram: to have harassed? Did you then go up and follow 174 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,980 Deborah Coram: up with additional reporting, additional training? Did you have policies 175 00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:51,030 Deborah Coram: for inclusion, diversity? There's just so many things that need 176 00:10:51,030 --> 00:10:53,880 Deborah Coram: to be done for a workplace to meet that obligation 177 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,030 Deborah Coram: of a positive duty. So I couldn't think of a 178 00:10:57,030 --> 00:11:00,720 Deborah Coram: leader in Australia where this is not their number one 179 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,359 Deborah Coram: or number two concern as to how they're going to 180 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,929 Deborah Coram: go about addressing this to be compliant with this legislation. 181 00:11:07,260 --> 00:11:08,850 Sean Aylmer: So it sounds from what you're saying, the onus is 182 00:11:08,850 --> 00:11:10,950 Sean Aylmer: very much on the business or much more than it 183 00:11:10,950 --> 00:11:14,610 Sean Aylmer: ever has been. What are the consequences of non- compliance? 184 00:11:15,179 --> 00:11:18,630 Deborah Coram: Yeah. Well, the consequences, I personally think the biggest consequence 185 00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:22,500 Deborah Coram: for non- compliance is reputational harm. I think reputational harm 186 00:11:22,500 --> 00:11:27,540 Deborah Coram: and the media surrounding organizations that breach this legislation is 187 00:11:27,540 --> 00:11:30,719 Deborah Coram: stronger and more damaging than anything else that can happen 188 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,470 Deborah Coram: to an organization. Brand is everything for a business and 189 00:11:34,470 --> 00:11:37,469 Deborah Coram: being on the front page at the papers for sexual 190 00:11:37,470 --> 00:11:43,679 Deborah Coram: harassment ruins your culture, affects your talent, attraction, retention. It 191 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,069 Deborah Coram: impacts your short- term and long- term shareholder value. So 192 00:11:47,070 --> 00:11:49,679 Deborah Coram: I think that's number one. Then of course, you've got 193 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,280 Deborah Coram: penalties under various legislation, the work health and safety legislation, 194 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,840 Deborah Coram: the discrimination legislation. You've got small claims tribunals there. The 195 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,540 Deborah Coram: penalties are being lifted too. A hundred thousand there. So 196 00:12:00,540 --> 00:12:03,780 Deborah Coram: you've got easy recourse for complainants under that as well. 197 00:12:04,620 --> 00:12:08,820 Deborah Coram: Employee turnover, I think is probably another one. And decreased 198 00:12:08,820 --> 00:12:11,970 Deborah Coram: productivity. So when you've got a culture of this sort 199 00:12:11,970 --> 00:12:14,489 Deborah Coram: of thing happening, people tend to talk about this and 200 00:12:14,490 --> 00:12:16,559 Deborah Coram: what's happening and who did what, rather than actually getting 201 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,660 Deborah Coram: on with the business of actually working. 202 00:12:19,410 --> 00:12:21,270 Sean Aylmer: Deborah, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 203 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:23,610 Deborah Coram: Thank you for having me, Sean. Thanks very much. 204 00:12:24,090 --> 00:12:27,960 Sean Aylmer: That was Deborah Coram, CEO of Compliance Training Business Safetrac. 205 00:12:28,020 --> 00:12:30,030 Sean Aylmer: This is the Fear and Greed Daily interview. Join us 206 00:12:30,030 --> 00:12:32,280 Sean Aylmer: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed. 207 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,089 Sean Aylmer: Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.