1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: My next guest is a prolific author. In fact, I've 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: just been looking at his list of books. There has 3 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: to be at least forty of them here on Google. 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: I just googled books by Peter FitzSimons, and I reckon 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: I've read at least a quarter of them. They are 6 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: fantastic stories, each and every one, of course, absolutely true 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: nonfiction stories, as is his later The Courageous Life of 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: Weary Dunlop Peter. Good evening to you, Thanks for coming on. 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 2: Good evening there to you. I can't wait to ask 10 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 2: you a particular question. Okay, okay, your producer told me 11 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: you've read most of it, makes you one of the 12 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 2: first person people in Australia to have read it. 13 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: What do you think, honestly, well, I loved your intro 14 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: saying that you didn't know a lot about him, and 15 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: I read that and thought, at that point all I 16 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: knew about him was he was a prisoner of war. 17 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: His men looked up to him. I remember, you know, 18 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: the circumstances around his death, and the dotcos and whatever 19 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: the stories about him. Then I knew nothing. And I'm 20 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: up to page two sixty seven, so just a little 21 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,919 Speaker 1: over halfway. But I knew nothing about his time in Greece. 22 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: I knew nothing about as a Victorian. He was the 23 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: first Victorian in the national rugby team. I knew nothing 24 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: about to Brook and look fascinating little details that how 25 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: would you know? But you've obviously researched us and found 26 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: out us. Me immortals would have no idea, for instance, 27 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 1: of the trouble within the prisoner of war camp, say 28 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: with the money to raise a fund, to have an 29 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: emergency fund for all the men and the officers rejecting that. 30 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: That just stuns me. 31 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: I love that story, I mean the story you referred to. 32 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: But are you absorbed by the arm? Do you feel 33 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 2: like you're there? Which is what I want? 34 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: Peter, Absolutely absolutely, I always feel that with your books. 35 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: I've got to say the last one I read Hubert Wilkins, 36 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: a man that South Australians don't know enough about. Great 37 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: read Uh Batavia. I loved Batavia. Knew nothing about it. 38 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 2: Well, it's funny, funny my wife's doing, as it was 39 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 2: announced the other day, extraordinary is doing doing the book 40 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 2: on an extraordinary South Australian Eveland Marsden, who was the 41 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 2: she came from a little town, Hoylton, which probably know 42 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 2: but we visited it about six months ago. Wow what 43 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 2: a town, well, in fact, what an outpost. But the 44 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 2: fact that Evelyn Marsden came from there and then turned 45 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 2: out to be the last survivor on the Titanic an amazing, 46 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: an amazing yarn. But on the on the issue of 47 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: where he done the story you're talking about, I love 48 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 2: that story where basically where he says to his fello Australians, 49 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: the way we're going to get through this taiban Mo 50 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 2: railway when previously in the Dutch East Indies there's not 51 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 2: enough food here. We need to keep everybody alive. So 52 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 2: negotiated with the Japanese to get a small stip end, 53 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 2: a very small amount of money under the Geneva Convention 54 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 2: for those working on tire burner railway. And he said 55 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 2: to the officers weathering five weather thing five shillings in 56 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: one shilling. I want everybody to kick in four shillings 57 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: and we're going to use it to buy eggs, We're 58 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 2: going to buy pigs, We're going to keep everybody alive. 59 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 2: And a couple of the officers said, well, we don't 60 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: want to do that. We want to keep the money 61 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 2: for ourselves. Weary, who was a boxing blue and a 62 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 2: Wallabi second Rower said you're not listening to me. I'm 63 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: telling you what we're going to do. Crazy and Blue. 64 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: He stopped. But it was fascinating and you're probably not 65 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: up to this part of the book yet. But the 66 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: great Tom new Men, who became a famous labor parliamentary 67 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: Deputy Prime Minister, was on the Ti Burner railway and 68 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 2: in his maiden speech he talked about in Parliament in 69 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty six, he said, I was with dune Off fourth. 70 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 2: I was underwheeling everything I know about life, about politics, 71 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 2: about how the world should work. If I learned that 72 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 2: the where he's done. We were on one side of 73 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: the creek. The Brits were on the other side of 74 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 2: the creek, on our side of the creek. Where he said, 75 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,839 Speaker 2: we're all Australians. We're all going to look after each other. 76 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: The strong will look after the week, and when we're 77 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 2: all very weak, the less week will look after the 78 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 2: very week. And so officers will have exactly the same 79 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 2: food as the men, exactly the same medical care, exactly 80 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 2: the same tents, and we will allocate resources according to me, 81 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: and tom Uren said, the other side of the creek, 82 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: the Brits marched in, and there were six hundred of 83 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 2: them at first, and the officers did none of the work, 84 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 2: got all the best, all the best medical care, all 85 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: the best tents. They worked the soldiers to death, and 86 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 2: he said six weeks later there was only fifty of 87 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: them left. And it's inspirational that stuff. And one of 88 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 2: the things that's fascinated me in this book was tom 89 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: Urin goes back to the Tiburmer railway in nineteen eighty 90 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 2: seven for the first time, and by that time he's 91 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 2: an old man, he's very weak, and the only way 92 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 2: he and get up the hill and get the hell 93 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: fire pass he is to put his hand on the 94 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 2: shoulder of the young political apparatic in his office that's 95 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: hauling him up the hill. The name of that political 96 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 2: apparatic Anthony Albanese. And the Prime Minister told me that, 97 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: I mean, he said to me that that tomm yur 98 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 2: En was like the father he never had. And Tommy 99 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 2: urenz on Reckwood as saying that Anthony Albanese he was 100 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 2: like a son to me. And so the biggest influence 101 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 2: on Anthony Albanese's life was Tom Uren. Tom Yuren credited 102 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 2: Weary Dunlop with basically strong Australian values looking after each other. 103 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: Isn't that amazing and clearly respected by the men for 104 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: that and the stories about him, the batman he had 105 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: who describes him as just being who is this bloke 106 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: who doesn't doesn't dodge shells and all the rest and 107 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: walks calmly through the chaos. It's incredible, isn't it? When 108 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: you how stow it you? I wonder where that comes from. 109 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, well you will have read that part against that 110 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 2: I love Look, you know I must say, I know 111 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 2: that I've got a good book on my head, but 112 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: I'm reading back and I love this. No, no, I 113 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 2: love this birth. You can do that. You can do 114 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: that for four hundred pages. You've got to crack a book. 115 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 2: But the one you will have read the part when 116 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 2: they're evacuating Greece. We used to dounned why Australia was 117 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 2: in Greece at the first place. Bloody Churchill Winston Churchill 118 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 2: did a did a treaty with Greece which said, okay, 119 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 2: if either of us gets under attack, will well, well 120 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: we'll support the other one. Okay, Greece comes under attack 121 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: twenty seven Nam twenty seven German divisions in Vague Greece. 122 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 2: The Greeks invoke the treaty. Churchill says, I will send 123 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 2: you an Australian division and they were slaughtered. And were 124 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: we done was in arte of the medical mission of 125 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 2: those Australians that were there. But you put one division, 126 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: I think it was one from memory, one Australian division, 127 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 2: one Keigwe division and half a Brick division up against 128 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: twenty seven twenty seven German divisions with admissively some of 129 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: the Greek army as well. But it was it was 130 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 2: devastating and as they're trying to evacuate, they go they 131 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: get stuck in a stuck in a shock, un ruff 132 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 2: and Blue Butterworth, the man you mentioned there was a 133 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 2: young British, a young British soldier looks up and then 134 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 2: this doctor that he's just met, by the name of 135 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 2: Colonel Dunloff is out and he's got this massive shovel 136 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: and he's digging them out and he's never seen an 137 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 2: officer in his life before with a shovel in his 138 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: hands doing the hard yaka. And when they got on 139 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 2: the tiber of the railway and somebody had to dig 140 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: the treams the toilets who did most of it, or 141 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 2: who was frequently seen with a shovel in his hand, 142 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 2: weary done and the men loved him for it. 143 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely he from your description of him, and I 144 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: didn't realized he was so tall or so. I mean, 145 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: I've seen photos, of course, but you really paint a 146 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: picture of a bloke who is calling him a superman 147 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: is over the top, I suppose. But he's certainly bigger 148 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: and stronger than everyone else around him. 149 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 2: Well, you would have got to the rugby past. Adelaide's 150 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 2: got heind Mars stadiums. So I have one flaim to 151 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 2: fame in rugby. I'm the only Wallaby ever sent from 152 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 2: the field in a match against the All Blacks for 153 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 2: violence and that was that was at hein Mars Stadium. 154 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 2: And I was only in the Wallabies for a very 155 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 2: brief time. But I was six so in the nineteen 156 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 2: eighties I was well, I still but I was six 157 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 2: foot six and I was big. I was big for 158 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 2: the Wallabies at that time. Here's the fascinating thing. Were 159 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 2: he done lot fifty years before me? Was in the 160 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: Wallabies and he was six foot four, so he must 161 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 2: have been an absolute giant among men. I would have 162 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: played five hundred games of rugby before before I got 163 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 2: into the Wallabies. He he played, he played the sixteenth 164 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 2: match he ever played was for the Wallabies. Because he 165 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 2: was so strong. He was twenty seven years old when 166 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: he took the game up. While at Melbourne University. He 167 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: went from fourth grade to third grade, to second grade 168 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: to first grade to the combined university side and shortly 169 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 2: thereafter he was in the Wallabies. And so physically he 170 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 2: was strong, but it was also his moral strength, courage. 171 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: And you will have got to the part in the 172 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 2: book where when the Japanese he's looking where he's in 173 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 2: charge of band Bandung Hospital in the Dutch East Indies 174 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: for the Tiburba railway. On the bed is a patient 175 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 2: that's just been admitted, Bill Griffiths. He got blown up 176 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 2: in a minefield. He lost both eyes, so he's totally blind. 177 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 2: He's lost two hands and he's lost one leg. He's 178 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: on the bed when the Japanese arrived and the Japanese 179 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 2: Colonel Bark's orders for one of the soldiers put a 180 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 2: bayonet through that man. Weary stands in front of the 181 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: bed between the soldier with the bayonet and the and 182 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 2: the patient and says, any bayonet that goes through this 183 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 2: man will have to go through me first. He saved 184 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 2: the life that the leverage that he had, oh that 185 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: the Japanese at the time was the Japanese wanted the 186 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 2: Australians to do hard yacker, serious hard work out on 187 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: the railways, and they were not giving them enough food. 188 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 2: They were treating them terribly and it was the doctors 189 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,599 Speaker 2: like Weary that were keeping them alive. So for the 190 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 2: Japanese to meet the targets that had been set for 191 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 2: them to cut through the jungle, to cut down into 192 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: the stone, to lay the railway line with impossible deadlines, 193 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 2: they needed the doctors to keep them alive. So Weary 194 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 2: was able to stand up to the Japanese and the soldiers. 195 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 2: The POW's absolutely loved him for it. 196 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing. You tell a story in the book too 197 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: about the Rugby, just to hark back to that, about 198 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: how we were applying to join the war effort from 199 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: the hospital in London where he was training and learning, 200 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: and the application was always refused, not because they didn't 201 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:14,839 Speaker 1: want him to join the army, but they wanted to 202 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: keep him in the rugby team. 203 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 2: Yes, well I know something of that. I do know 204 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: something of that. You know, I certainly don't remotely one 205 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 2: hundred comparement of self to where he'd done off, but 206 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: I did, But I did identify with a lot of 207 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 2: that stuff that when you're in the Wallabies, you know, 208 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 2: you can't walk past the door without an opening for him, 209 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 2: and you know there are all kinds of opportunities. And 210 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: what was interesting for me was when the war broke 211 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 2: out in nineteen thirty nine, everybody else that was an 212 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,599 Speaker 2: Australian in London had to go back to Australia to 213 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 2: join up. Where he set a capable to one of 214 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 2: the heavyweight doctors that was in the Australian Army, and 215 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: it was arranged that where he didn't have to go 216 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 2: back to Australia. He went straight to Jerusalem. So he 217 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: was there when the Australians arrived, and he was very 218 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 2: good administrator and they kept wanting to promote him up 219 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 2: to be, you know, to run hospitals and to do 220 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 2: stuff that would take him away from surgery. And he 221 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 2: was always pushing no, I actually want to be at 222 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: the cold face. I want to be in the middle 223 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 2: of it. I want to be doing what need to 224 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 2: be done with the soldiers. 225 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And there's a fair bit of that 226 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: evident in the pages I've read the first essentially half 227 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: of your book. One of the things I didn't know 228 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: and have learned by reading this is how many of 229 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 1: these soldiers got there, because I always assumed they were 230 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: captured pretty much in Thailand run. I knew we didn't 231 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: fight there, but I always thought, how did they get there? 232 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: And the story about the ships being diverted after the 233 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: fall of Singapore and then basically they skipped countries essentially 234 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: to get to where they are. 235 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: I think this is one of the lesser known stories 236 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 2: that I always find inspirational. I've done a couple of 237 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 2: interviews I do and I work for the Sydney Morning 238 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 2: Here also every WEHEK, I do a Q and A. 239 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 2: A couple of weeks ago, I did Tony Abbott. He's 240 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 2: a he's got a book out of that. I suspect 241 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 2: he's doing better than mine at the mate. 242 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: Well, you're just released tomorrow, isn't it, So we'll talk about. 243 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 2: That Tony Abbott was my former reguy Cat and we 244 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 2: discussed So Tony Abbot's done a book on history of 245 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,199 Speaker 2: Australian democracy, and I was very pleased to hear him 246 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 2: say that he agreed with me that John Curtin was 247 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: a great prime minister. Now Tony Abbot himself a Liberal 248 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: prime minister, So when he says John Kurton was a 249 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 2: great prime minister, I take him in his word, and 250 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: I think John Kurton's been underdone. But the fascinating episode 251 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 2: to which you refer is after the Australians had done 252 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 2: so well in the Middle East that places like to 253 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 2: Brooklyn and so forth, the Japanese drop bombs on Pearl 254 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 2: Harbor seventh of December nineteen forty one. Kurtin not unreasonably said, 255 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 2: we need the Australian tame and we need him now. 256 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 2: And they were on the they were in this convoy 257 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: coming across the Indian nation back to Australia. Winston Churchill said, 258 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 2: I want them to go to Burma. I want them 259 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 2: to be diverted to go to Burma because the Japanese 260 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 2: are pushing to the west to get to the crown 261 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 2: Jewels of the British Empire, which is India. So we 262 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 2: need the Australians to stop the Japanese there. Curtain said, no, 263 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 2: the Japanese are going west, but they're also coming south 264 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 2: towards Australia. We need the Australian soldiers to defend Australia. 265 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 2: Churchill's idea was, I'm the head of the British Empire 266 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 2: by command. So he gave the order for the troops 267 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 2: to divert to Burma and then told her twenty four hours, 268 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 2: made curtains of Paul, not sure what to do, walks 269 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 2: the hills of Camber his office put up and notice 270 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: that the camp of cinema saying, if you are the privatenister, 271 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: did we need Paul home? Come home? He walks in 272 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 2: at midnight and he sends a cable to Churchill basically 273 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 2: saying get nicked. And the line that he used that 274 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 2: I love basically the line was I dare say there 275 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: are many places that Australian troops to be of great 276 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: use in East War, but nowhere will they be of 277 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 2: such use as in Australia. Depending Australia. And yet weary 278 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 2: Dunlop was on the Orcados which was the fastest ship 279 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 2: in that convoy. It had already been diverted to go 280 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 2: to the Dutch East Indies, which was basically being invaded 281 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 2: by the Japanese, and so they were using the Australians 282 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: there to try to bolster the Dutch. And they fought 283 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 2: very very well, the Australians there, but they were captured. 284 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: In the meantime. The soldiers in Singapore, the Australian soldiers 285 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: of the Eighth Division in Singapore, they were undermanned, under 286 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: resource when the Japanese hit there. Singapore fell, exposing Australia 287 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: to the Japanese thrust to the south, and a lot 288 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: of those soldiers were in Cheni and a lot of 289 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 2: the Chinese soldiers, the Australian soldiers in Cheni ended up 290 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: on the Tiber railway. 291 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: And there we are. We won't talk much more about 292 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: it because if we do, no point buying the book. 293 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: That's a great root. Yeah, but I do want to 294 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: touch on one person again, somebody undercooked in South Australia. 295 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: We know nothing about this man, and you mention him 296 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: in the book. He pops up from time to time, 297 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: and that is Brigadier Arthur Seaford Blackburn a war heroe 298 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: from World War One, his exploits. He was the man 299 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: on the twenty fifth of April nineteen fifteen who got 300 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: behind Turkish lines. He made it inland further than anybody 301 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: ever did throughout that whole campaign. On day one in 302 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: World War Two, we took out a whole battalion. Didn't 303 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: hear a whole trench of Germans. Amazing man. 304 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 2: It's funny when you do these books because there are 305 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 2: people that leaped from the page you when you look 306 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 2: at when you look at them, and you go, what, 307 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: why don't I know about what an extraordinary man he was. 308 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 2: And he was the one that after doing so well 309 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 2: as you Littley going first than anybody had gone. He 310 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 2: was a veteran, he was an older man and the 311 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 2: younger soldiers looked up to him and he absolutely knew 312 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 2: what he was doing. And then when the Japanese hit 313 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 2: the Duchy Stindies, he was the one that took took 314 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 2: over Blackburn force and you know, again did stunningly well. 315 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 2: And he was a mentor. He was a mentor to 316 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 2: Wearing Dunbop And yeah, I love those stories that where 317 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 2: Blackburn's involvement with Weary duntop in Changy was wonderful. 318 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: He was a politician for a while when he returned 319 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: to say, I think between the wars is my recollection 320 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 1: now might have been after the Second World War, but 321 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: and then served as value a general got out of 322 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: politics and became value of general here but had an 323 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: electric named after him, but it's disappeared since in the years. 324 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 2: But the other South Australian that I loved was a 325 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 2: blake private Bob Fox. And he was an old carpenter 326 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 2: and this is the thing that where he wanted everybody 327 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 2: that was there had different skills in this old carpenter 328 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 2: from South Australia convened with the Australian light as in 329 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 2: the Great War. And when when we're he needed to 330 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: create it, he was very conscious of hygiene. When we're 331 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: he needed to create a urinal, it was it was 332 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 2: it was Bob Fox who formed it out of very 333 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 2: clever cut bamboo pole in half twenty feet long, six 334 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 2: inches in diameter, and he put it on a sleep 335 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: in there he forms a urinal so that you know, 336 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: you keep the camp clean when cholera broke out. It 337 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 2: was just like Bob Fox who worked out a way 338 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: to force feed the fluids to the cholera patients by 339 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 2: boiling the water in the forty four going drum and 340 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 2: leading the steam through rubber coils that they got from 341 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 2: an old japan lorry abandoned lorry. They put it through bamboo. 342 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 2: That's and then Bob Fox worked out how are we 343 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 2: going to get the camula basically the sharp metal that 344 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 2: goes into the van veins. He fashioned it out of bamboo. 345 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 2: He was one of those sort of undersu heroes, people 346 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 2: that have all these skills that they keep them alive. 347 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: Amazing, isn't it. I've read about the urine or Bob 348 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: Bob Bob Fox's clarinet, wasn't it I think he described it? Yeah, beautiful, right, 349 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: that's it. 350 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 2: And then the other thing with Bob Fox, he was 351 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 2: the one that paw hospital near the end of the war. 352 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: He used all of his carpentry skills to make it, 353 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 2: make a full legs for legs Amputy. 354 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 1: Well, it's incredible, isn't it, Peter. Fascinating discussion, and I 355 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: can't wait to read the second half of the book 356 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: or a bit under that. Now I'm just looking at 357 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: where the bookmark is just a tad passed halfway, so 358 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: looking forward to finishing it and just learning more about 359 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: this extraordinary man where he dunel up and the weary part. 360 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: I always wondered if he fell asleep one day and 361 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: that he got that name, But you explained in the book. 362 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: We won't talk about that. Read the book if you 363 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: want to know how he got the nickname. 364 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 2: But thank you, your your producer's got my number. When 365 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 2: you get to the epilogue and you read the story 366 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 2: of what happened to the Lizard, please. 367 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: Give me a message, Okay, tell me. 368 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 2: If you do or don't burst tears. 369 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: Thank you, all right, I will, I will do that. 370 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: Haven't got to that. The book is on sale tomorrow 371 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: and you'll see it in all good bookstores. Peter Fitzsimon's 372 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 1: The Courageous Life of Where He Dunlop? What's next, Peter? 373 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: What are you working on? Now? 374 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 2: Well? I've done, I've done it already, I'm obit ahead 375 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 2: of myself. I've done. Matthew Flinders, Okay, what a what 376 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 2: an amazing story is that? And the story you will 377 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 2: know the story in South Australia in count of Bay, 378 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 2: you know that amazing story. Yeah, yes, what a story. Yeah, 379 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 2: I love that story. 380 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 1: Well, they they weren't at well then were they. Well, 381 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: they didn't know if they were or weren't I suppose. 382 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 2: But then but then the Frenchman, the Frenchman nicol Or, 383 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 2: he got tried I think it was from Kangaroo Island. 384 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 2: He took back to France, the Napoleon's wife, Josephine. He 385 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 2: took back what bats of butter pie from South Australia 386 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: that when they got them back into Paris they were 387 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 2: still alive and by the time they were extinct in 388 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 2: South Australia. It's an amazing how about that? 389 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: All right? I can't wait to read that one. Pet 390 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: A great chatting with you. Thank you so much. It's 391 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: a great read so far. Im No, I won't be 392 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: disappointed with the rest of it. I absolutely know that 393 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: it's just riveting and certainly am there with them as 394 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: they're they're slaving away up the slopes of the Burma 395 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: Ty Railway. Oh just quickly, I did have this to 396 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: ask you the hell Fire Pass. You talk about this 397 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 1: in the intro and you say how it really came 398 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: home to you when you visited the hell Fire Pass. 399 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 1: As to what the story was all about you just 400 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: want to talk about that? What was that revelation? 401 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 2: I like every book I do. You know, when I 402 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 2: did Boss Them, I went to Antarctica, I did the 403 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 2: book and Kakada, you know, walked the Kakata track. I've 404 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 2: been to the Brook, I've been to where Kingson Smiths 405 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 2: started out from flying across the Pacific and all those 406 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 2: kinds of things. So I'm sixty four years old, but 407 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 2: I'm fairly fit, and I'm fairly strong, and I played tennis, 408 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 2: touch and basketball and so forth. So I get to 409 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,719 Speaker 2: hell Fire Pass and that's but as I'm going out, 410 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 2: they say, well, look, you know, make sure, make sure 411 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 2: you got plenty of water with you. And I just 412 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 2: waved the fine honestly, I mean, you know, it was 413 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 2: only a few kilometers. But well, by the time I 414 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 2: got there, I had this. I was nearly fainting because 415 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 2: the heat bought the hell Fire Passes a cutting that 416 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 2: the Australians did through the mountain. And when you get 417 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: there in the middle of the day, the heat belts 418 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: down and it reflects off the side of the rocket, 419 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 2: reflects from it comes from the top, and it was 420 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 2: like being in another and I was thinking, I am 421 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: nearly falling over here. I have got the hell fire 422 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,239 Speaker 2: pass by coming up from Bangkok in a in an 423 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 2: air condition, the CD's bend. I've had a very good breakfast, 424 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 2: I've had a very good lunch, and you know, I'm bitten. 425 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 2: I'm strong. How the hell did these plays doll it? 426 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 2: Sixteen hours a day in that hill on Earth? 427 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: Yeah? Unreal? All right, I'll get to that. Thank you, 428 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: Peter for your time. Good luck with the book out tomorrow, 429 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: Peter Fitzsimon's The Courageous Life of Weary Dunlop